1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Adami's Studios. If you were in London in November twenty twenty, 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: then you might have been as I was lucky to 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: go to see Fly in League with the Night, an 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: exhibition of paintings by Lynette Yadam Boochi, artist and writer, 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: a retrospective of seventy of her works from two thousand 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: and three to the present. It closed after two weeks 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: due to the pandemic, but is now on again, the 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: first time the Tate has shown an exhibition twice. Lynette 10 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: is a writer, a painter and also a magical baker. 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: Today we're sitting here in the River Cafe to talk 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: about food, words, paint, in other words, all the ingredients 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: to make something like Lynette beautiful, cell and ed are 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: you going to read s? The recipe first, and the 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: recipe of chosen is Polenta almond and lemon cake serves 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: ten four hundred and fifty grams of unsalted butter, softened 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,639 Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty grams of granulated sugar, four hundred 18 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: and fifty grams ground almonds, two teaspoons vanilla extract, six eggs. 19 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: The finely grated zest of four lemons, the juice of 20 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: one lemon, two hundred and twenty five grams of polenta, 21 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: one and a half teaspoons of baking powder. Preheat the 22 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: oven to one hundred and sixty degrees centigrade. Butter and 23 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: line a thirty centimeter round and seven point five centimeter 24 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: deep cake pan with parchment paper. Beat the butter and 25 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: sugar together until pale and light. Stir in the ground 26 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: almonds and vanilla. Beat in the eggs one at a time. 27 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: Fold in the lemon, zest and juice, the blenta, baking powder, 28 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: and salt. Spoon into the prepared pan. Bake for forty 29 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: five to fifty minutes, or until the cake is set 30 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: and deep brown on top. Serve with crem fresh and berries. 31 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk about being an artist and how 32 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: you eat. I think you're here a lot, which is 33 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: really nice, A fair bit, yeah, but I find that 34 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: I also I generally feel better if I don't eat 35 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: out a lot, so I don't. I don't tend to 36 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: eat out as much when I'm very, very busy when 37 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: I'm working, because it's it's so much. I just just 38 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: physically to regulate my own kind of sleep and everything 39 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: when I'm trying to get stuff done, having a certain 40 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: routine with what you're eating and the time you're eating 41 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: at like I can't eat late. Like for example, the 42 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: last couple of months, I've been working on a deadline 43 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: and um, but there's a dead a show. I have 44 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: a show. I have a show at the Googen Him 45 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: and Bill Bao the end of my beautiful building. Um, difficult, 46 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: complicated building, but wonderful. I like a lot of the 47 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: contemporary architecture museums. They're great for architecture, not great for 48 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: hanging stuff on the amazing building. Yeah and yeah. So 49 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: I've been really busy with that, and I've found that 50 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: by sticking with a with a kind of a bit 51 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: of a routine in terms of meals and certain times, 52 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm just able to get more done and get to 53 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: bet at a decent hour. It is solitary. Yeah, you know, 54 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have other people in the 55 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: studio with you. You have a jadline now, but other 56 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: days when you have a routine that is very structured, 57 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: so you can quite try to call you up and 58 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: say Lonett, let's go and have lunch. Would you say 59 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: I can't, so I probably say yes, yes, but I should, 60 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: I should really not answer the phone, but I I 61 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: normally so three days of the week, I'll get up 62 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: and train with a trainer online and like about sort 63 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: of training normally around eight o'clock and then breakfast and 64 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: then work. Yeah. Yeah, so and do you work straight 65 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: through you I stopped for lunch. What mornings painting wise 66 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: or studio wise tend to be a bit slow. I 67 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: take a while to get warmed up. Do you find 68 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: the solitude of the day something that you treasure and 69 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: you liked or do you like nighttime? Are you ready 70 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: to see It's funny by nighttime, I'm ready to see people, 71 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: But I also feel like during the day it's solitary. 72 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: But it's I'm so busy, I'm so in it, I 73 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: don't even I kind of forget. I couldn't have anyone there. 74 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, too much work now. But yeah, And you 75 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: know you're going to one of the great cities for 76 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: food when you go to Bilbao because Sebastian is right 77 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: next door. Yeah, and they're fantastic restaurants there. Yeah, great 78 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: culture of food. Yeah. You travel, you find out about 79 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: where you're going to look into it first and explore 80 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the food. Yeah, when I sent in the cities that 81 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: you've really liked food, really liked, so I think. I 82 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: mean I spent three months in Marseilla, three months on 83 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: the residency many years ago. The pastries there were out 84 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: of this world. I remember, the pastries were incredible there. 85 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: That was one. So back and forth to France quite 86 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: a lot for many years, and and many trips over 87 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: the years to the South of Spain as well, which 88 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: I can I have funny memories of eating there because 89 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: we always ate so late. Yes, the food I almost 90 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: don't remember it because I just remember feeling like we've 91 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: eaten too late and I don't feel very well. Yeah, 92 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: so at midnight. Yeah nothing. I don't know how people 93 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: do it. Indigestion, how you work the next day. Yeah, 94 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: I've really never understood it. Um. Yes, although a lot 95 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: of trips to the to the US, which of course 96 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 1: is just so much variety. But yeah, I do love 97 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: soul food in New York as well, just like going 98 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: to Harlem and having soul food and these really kind 99 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: of very down to earth, very chill, very relaxed diners 100 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: and eateries. There a lot of your friends are so yeah, yeah, 101 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: I got yeah, artists, curators, writers, that kind of thing. 102 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: Are you having any shows in New York? Not for 103 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: the foreseeable. There will be a US tour that I 104 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: can't really say much about yet. But a couple of 105 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: years time. Yeah, I was Richard. My husband had got 106 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: a prize in the University of Virginia and it's called 107 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: the Jefferson Prize. And I was washing my hands in 108 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: the bathroom and a woman came in and she was 109 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: just awarded the prize as well as the first African 110 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: American to graduate from law school. And I think it 111 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: probably was the sixties. It was horrifically late, and I 112 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: said to her. We started talking and I said, what 113 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: was harder being a black woman or being a woman 114 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: to get this prize? And she said, definitely a woman. 115 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: At that time, she said there was racism of course 116 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: in the South, that it was vile and it was strong, 117 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: but the antagonist for her being a woman. And I 118 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: was wondering about in the art world, what your experience, 119 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, just to deviate from from food, what was 120 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: your experience of being a black woman in Britain as 121 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: a painter. I mean to be completely honest, it was. 122 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: It was very very odd in you know, because it 123 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: wasn't that not that long ago. But when I think 124 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: about when I first first was out of art school 125 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: completely and working away and kind of oblivious to certain 126 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: things because I never expected a career. I never went 127 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: into this expecting any kind of success or anything, because 128 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: you don't. It's it's a crazy path. It doesn't You're 129 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: not guaranteed anything. But thinking back to then, the level 130 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: of invisibility I had, like the fact that I remember 131 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: being at events and in situations or openings where I 132 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: would be completely invisible, like nobody would talk to me, 133 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: someone might try and hand me their coat, someone might 134 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: ask me to bring them a drink. That that was 135 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: my abiding memory of say, the period from two thousand 136 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: and three to maybe two twelve eleven, something like that. 137 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: And because I wasn't I mean, nobody really knew who 138 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: I was or I didn't really have a I mean, 139 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: in some way, I couldn't. I couldn't get arrested for 140 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: the first ten years of making work, which was actually 141 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: really liberating. I don't complain about that because it was 142 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: actually a really good time to get things done and 143 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: I was working regardless, I didn't really care, and I 144 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: had enough going on for me with different projects, really 145 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: important shows and things that I was involved in during 146 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: that time. That kept me very motivated, and I met 147 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: a lot of wonderful people, mostly US who were and 148 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: still are really big supporters of mine early on. But 149 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: it was in the more general art well and certainly 150 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: in the UK, that invisibility, that thing of being invisible, 151 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: of people turning their backs on you at dinner, of 152 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: not talking to you, of not being included in anything 153 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: because not just because people saw you was an issues 154 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: based artist or someone who was niche in a way 155 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: that they didn't want to engage with. That at some 156 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: points was difficult, that would that hurt in a certain way, 157 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: But at the time I can't say I really cared, 158 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 1: and that hasn't changed, If anything, it's increased. I really 159 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: don't care now. And the same people who would turn 160 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: their backs on me and asked me to take their 161 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: coats or completely ignore me in the seven two thousand 162 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: and six and now prostrating themselves on the floor to me, 163 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: which I still don't care about. I still don't care, 164 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: and I think that was that was That's been my 165 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: abiding mantra is, particularly when things have been really were 166 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: really difficult, or reached a crisis point in some way, 167 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: I realized, actually, all of this stuff, it doesn't really matter. 168 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: That the thing that I've always really cared about was 169 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: the work I was doing, the people that I think with, 170 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: the people that I respect, the people that I work 171 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: with and who have always been big supporters of mine, 172 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: and I've been big supporters of theirs, and what we've 173 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: done together and built together was That's what matters these 174 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: kind of rather that a scene or a career on 175 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: art World has never ever mattered, It doesn't matter. It's 176 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: just it's it's ever been a concern of mine because 177 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: it was never mine. It was never something I was 178 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: a part of. So I kind of to answer your 179 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: question a very long winded sort of right, I didn't, Yeah, 180 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. Yeah, does it does it? If 181 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter to you, doesn't matter that it matters 182 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: to other people experiencing it. So you know Edward's story 183 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: about walking into Vogue and you know, being told to 184 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: use the side entrance to deliver or something you know 185 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: that matters, and yeah, you know, And so there's a 186 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,359 Speaker 1: sort of there is a political aspect to the invisibility 187 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: that is wrong. It's wrong, and it could be wrong 188 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: as a woman. You know, when you know we noticed, 189 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, we know that we go to parties and 190 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: a certain kind of person or a young person that's ignored, 191 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: or a quiet person that's ignored, or a black person 192 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: that's ignored, or you know, somebody wearing the wrong dress. 193 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: It and it's great to have the confidence that that 194 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: is something that your work can see through. But then 195 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: for other people, yeah, you know who are experience, who 196 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: don't have that, it's yeah, no, it's really hard. And 197 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: I think that's why the things that get you through 198 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: when you're younger, or you're not as confident, or you 199 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: don't have the kind of agency will be that circle 200 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: of people or that circle of support that really even 201 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, if it was even if it's your family, 202 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: even if it's your your partner or you know, you 203 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: need someone to turn to who can say, yeah, I 204 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: just saw that. Yeah I get it. I know. And 205 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: I think because these things still happen, It's not like 206 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen to me anymore. It still does, you know. Still, 207 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: it's that classic thing when people before people know who 208 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: you are, they don't respect you. I have a problem 209 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: with that. It shouldn't matter who I am. I don't 210 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: I'm not someone who goes somewhere I don't believe in. 211 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: I don't see myself any differently than I did twenty 212 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: years ago. So I'm not going to go in somewhere 213 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: and say do you know where I am? Because that's 214 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: ridiculous to me. But I shouldn't have to anither anyone else. 215 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: And it's it's having it's that sense. I mean a 216 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: friend was telling me a story yesterday of something that 217 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: happened to them very similar that this, you know, being 218 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: followed around a store. I mean that that kind of thing. 219 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to go in and prove anything in 220 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: order to be respected, and that that's the difference. It's 221 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: I think, was it Nina Simone? You said, you know, 222 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: love us, will leave us alone. It's it's simple. What 223 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: do you make when you make cakes? You know, wow, everything, 224 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: But my favorite thing to bake is any type of 225 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: sponge cake because that was really I learned to bake 226 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: from my mum and she was she did a catering 227 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: course in the seventies and yeah, she's nurse she's very 228 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: busy work nights, as did my dad, both nurses, but 229 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: baking for her was just such a joy. She loved 230 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: doing it, and I used to love watching. So I 231 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: would stand or sit and just watch her do it intensely, 232 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: and I always wanted to help, and for many years 233 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: she wouldn't let me because I'd messed it up. But 234 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: just watching and watching and watching, and those little things 235 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: that just stay with you forever, like that. Never ever 236 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: ever opened the oven before a certain point, Yeah, because 237 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: I could never wait. I was really I wanted to 238 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: see it. I want to see it rise on what 239 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: was happening. And I would always panic and open the 240 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: oven and then it would sink. And it became a 241 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: kind of running joke that my cakes would always sink 242 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: because I was too impatient, and I'd always turn the 243 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: oven up too high. Yeah. Yeah, but a sponge is 244 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: really hard to make. Yeah, there's science, it's one of 245 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: the easiest, you know, recipes, but actually to make a 246 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: good sponge, as a town would your mother was she 247 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: was born in Ghana. She was born in Ghana. Yeah. Yeah, 248 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: she like, oh, she's amazing, she's wonderful, she does it. 249 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: She's she's my my hero. Did she come as a 250 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: young child here? No? No, no, she came in her twenties, 251 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: as did my dad. Well, my dad was a bit older, 252 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: but they came in the nineteen sixty They met and 253 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: Gharana married and Garner moved here to work as nurses 254 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: settled down and we all came along in the seventies. 255 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: There's three of us. I have two older brothers. So 256 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: going back to the early days, what was it like 257 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: growing up in your household if your parents were both 258 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: nurses and they were working. Ye? Did they work nights 259 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: and days or ships or did you nights? Yeah? So 260 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: there was always one of them home. Would you have 261 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: a family? Yeah? All around the table one thing I 262 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: mean we did. We did at the weekends more I guess, 263 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: and when they were both home than we'd all be 264 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: around the table. But weekends, I remember, breakfasts on the 265 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: Sunday were real everyone together. Oh omelets. My dad made 266 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: a very good omelet, a kind of everything, but the 267 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: kitchen sink over which was very good, very very good. 268 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: He used to put baked beans into the open instress, 269 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: which was bonkers, but yeah, it's really good. Would they 270 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: have cooked in Ghana? Do you think or did they really? 271 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: You know they both? I think they both always cooked 272 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: my dad. I mean we we we ate a lot 273 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: of gunny and food when I was a kid, like 274 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: foo food which I can't eat now I don't. I 275 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: don't like it anymore. I think the traditional way it's 276 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: made in Ghanna is with pounded Um. I'm going to 277 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: get this wrong. Cassava and plantain together and it's it's 278 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: pounded until it becomes like a big sort of Doughey 279 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: mass and you have it with with stew or soup 280 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: with meat and fish. Um, it's very heavy. And did 281 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: you grow up with other friends who were gunny and 282 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: it was there a community? Yeah? I mean we had 283 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: all of our my parents had a large sort of 284 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: network circle of friends. And where where was this in London? 285 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: South South? I remembered spending a lot of time in markets, supermarkets, shops. 286 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: My my dad used to go and buy his meat 287 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: like from the Hellal butchers, like because he was Muslim, 288 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: so he would always we always ate Hellal meat. And 289 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: one of my abiding memories was in Baalom before it gentrified, 290 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: before it became posh, when Balam was still a market 291 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: surrounded by some really odd shops here and there. Um, 292 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: I love I love Old Ballom. Old Ballam was quite magical, 293 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: but mostly because there was this my dad's favorite butcher 294 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: was in Ballom, and he would go in and inspect 295 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: all of the goats heads, like for the goat's head 296 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: souperies to make, and so each he'd be there, the 297 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: scull be picking up all these goats heads and it's 298 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: like my dad was inspecting the teeth. He's just looking 299 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: at the faces, looking at the eye. I just it 300 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: was so bonkers, but it became so normal. I mean, 301 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: I just were going in and inspecting goats heads with 302 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: my dad. Was a main memory of shopping with my dad. 303 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: And then we go to the market that was alongside 304 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: that butcher's where where they had like the yams, the plantains, everything, 305 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: And there was a little guinny and food shop there 306 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: as well. I think it's long gone now. That sold 307 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: all of the pepper sauce and the dubiously acquired dried 308 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: fish that we were entirely short was legal. Yeah, it's 309 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: very good though, it's delicious, but I'm not sure. I mean, 310 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: it used to be very easy to bring a lot 311 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: of things in from Ghana like people I have a 312 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, things like snails and you know, the dried 313 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: fish and everything, all these things that you can't really 314 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: get here. I think it's a lot harder. You know, 315 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: there's there's dogs at the airport and stuff to stop 316 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: your briefings. Really but yeah, but did you get to Yeah, yeah, 317 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: we went back a few times when I was when 318 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: I was young, and it was yeah. I mean the 319 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: markets there are extraordinary. I mean it's really um a 320 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: lot of action, possibly too much action for me, but yeah, 321 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: because my auntie actually worked and worked at one of 322 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: the markets, and I remember going to visit her there 323 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: and just yeah, it was extraordinary, really extraordinary. A lot 324 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: of noise, a lot of chaos. Well you only cakes 325 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: that you only made, were you allowed? When I was younger, 326 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: only cakes? Really, I don't think anyone trusted my cooking. 327 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: My my my dad was very particular. He's he passed 328 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: away twenty sixteen, but he was very particular about what 329 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: he would and wouldn't eat. So he could never get 330 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: his head around white sauce. And I think this is 331 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: kind of a guinny and male thing. White sauce is 332 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: somehow not correct to him. So anything. If I put 333 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: anything in front of him that had like a white 334 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: sorce I'd seem to remember once trying to give him 335 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: I'd made a fish pie or something, and my mom 336 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: liked my fish pie. She could eat my fish pie. 337 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: My dad just couldn't even look at something with a 338 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: white It had to be red or brown. So yeah, 339 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: but I did. I as I got older, I did 340 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: used to do things. I'd come and deer the roast, 341 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: like we'd have like roast lamb or roast chicken, and 342 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: then if it burned, it was my fault. So I 343 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: used to like watch it religiously, and you know, take 344 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: it out and turn it and stuff. Did you paint 345 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: as a as a teenager? What did you know that? 346 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: I always made things. I always did things with my hands. 347 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: I always was always trying to make something, usually out 348 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: of cardboard or I mean drawing pictures. I did a 349 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: lot of drawing as a teenager. I started painting when 350 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: I was on my foundation course encouraged. They did not 351 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: encourage it. I mean they could see what I was into. 352 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: I think my dad was just baffled by the whole thing. 353 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: My mom was far more tolerant in a way. She 354 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: used to sit for me a lot. I wish you 355 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: could find those paintings. Actually, I don't know. That must 356 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: be buried in my parents' house somewhere. I did lots 357 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: of paintings of my mum, Drawings of my mum um 358 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: pretty accurate, actually, I think. I think at that point 359 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: they thought maybe there was something in it, you know, 360 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: because I could get a likeness, and school was like, um, yeah, yeah, 361 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: there was a I remember my high school, my secondary 362 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: school had a very very good art and drama department. 363 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: They had converted a whole building into just art drama, 364 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: which I remember thinking it was amazing. It was brand 365 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: new at the time, and it was the early late eighties, 366 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: early nineties, but it was brand new and that was 367 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: kind of unheard of around there. And so you went 368 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: to Falmouth. I went to Falmouth and then to the 369 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: Royal Academy, which was what was the difference was Foalnmouth 370 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: was Foalnmouth was very very calm. It's quite far away, 371 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: very far, very calm. I loved it. I had a 372 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: really good time there. It's amazing to be by the 373 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: water to study so in the somewhere that was just 374 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: so different to anywhere I'd ever been, so I was 375 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: born and raised in London, so it was I didn't 376 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: want to go anywhere that was a city because I 377 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: felt like I was in the city. You know, this 378 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: is London was so important to me. Yeah, it's where 379 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of the end of the country in Cornwall, 380 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: which is I think the most. They do say that 381 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: it has more weather than anywhere else in the country. 382 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: They have percentage wise, more more of everything, more more weather, 383 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: they used to say that, but more weather in Cornwall 384 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: than anywhere else in the country. And the climb it 385 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: was quite insane, like it would rain, it could rain 386 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: non stop for weeks on end, months on end, and 387 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: then it could be really tropical as well. It was 388 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: like the most tropical point. There were palm trees, sandy beaches. 389 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: It really does, or at least it did back then, 390 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: feel like paradise. It was still quite sort of cut 391 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: off in the way that it felt because we didn't 392 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: have mobile phones and stuff yet there wasn't. I mean 393 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: a couple of people had one, but no one else did. 394 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: I'd been going to pay phones and stuff to make calls, 395 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: which seems odd now with one phone in the house. Yeah, 396 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: and it just had that nice feeling of being at 397 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: the end of the of the earth. To me, it 398 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: felt like I was in the middle of nowhere, which 399 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: was so liberating. With the tradition of painters, you know, yes, yeah, 400 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: and Nicholson, yeah, Yeatrick, Karen and York. Yeah, it was 401 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: a community, yeah, tradition. Yeah. And we had very great 402 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: We had great tutors, really good teachers who were who 403 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: were you know, living down there, very different pace, and 404 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: they'd all a lot of them had been in London 405 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: and just study, you know, as artists in London and 406 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: just thought, no this time to time together. Um a 407 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: lot of pasties. They had no money, money, Oh my goodness. 408 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: So that the old version, the traditional version was you'd 409 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: have this semicircle shaped pastry with a sort of woven 410 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: edge that's quite thick, like a twisted edge that's thick 411 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: that you could hold onto, and then inside traditionally you 412 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: would have half sweet and half savory. And it was 413 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: for the miners, I guess, to to be able to 414 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: hold the edge, which is the crust that they wouldn't 415 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: eat because it was dirty because they're holding it there, 416 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: and then they would eat the savory part and then 417 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: they would have dessert afterwards. Now, of course they don't 418 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: really do them like that anymore, because yeah, it wasn't 419 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: ideal to put the sweet and savory into the same 420 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: thing and split it. But yeah, we had a little Yeah, 421 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: I think that. Um so that's further my step. Someone 422 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: who was at the Royal College chargers design airline tableware 423 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: that was like a pasty kind of eat the table. 424 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: We used a lot of energy because we walked everywhere. 425 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: On one level, I was the fittest I've ever been, 426 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: probably also the most malnourished. Kind of malnourished, but very fat. 427 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: I remember one time we scraped our pennies together to 428 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: go for a fancy meal because we thought, well, I 429 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: think we know, we didn't even scrape pennies. I think 430 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: we We said we were going to use our credit 431 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: cards that night, the emergency credit cards that were student 432 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: credit cards, so there was a you know, you had 433 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: about ten pounds to spend on it anyway, And we 434 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: went to a fancy fish restaurant and took one look 435 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: at the menu and we were horrified because everything cost 436 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: more than ten pounds. And I ordered the prawns because 437 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, this will be you know, it's not 438 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: often I get to have prawns too expensive, and they 439 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: brought us. I had a plate and the plate it 440 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: was twelve pounds. You know this there's a lot of money. 441 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: And there were six prawns on it, and I remember 442 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: being so upset. We were just so horrified because I 443 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: think we all got the prawns and we were all 444 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: just like, we're going to be hungry. We can be 445 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: really hungry after it, and we can't have anything else. 446 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: That's all of our money gone into these prawns. Were 447 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: so angry, but we left and I think we had toast. 448 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: Was still so hungry and we got back. That has 449 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: a very dead strong identity a Cornish food. And so 450 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: when you went back to London was it a big 451 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: difference food? Did you live at home when you came back? 452 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, I lived at home for the first 453 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: year and a half at the R. So when did 454 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: you have your first apartment? Okay, so I shared a 455 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: flat with two friends. Yeah, And what did you cut 456 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: when you had your own kitchen? What's that like? Well, they, 457 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: as I recall, if I remember correctly, they were both vegetarian. 458 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: So I kind of fell into step a little bit. 459 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I felt a bit bad bringing animals. Yeah, 460 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: I couldn't deal with the horror in their eyes every 461 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: time I get meat out, although I think I did 462 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: used to cook chicken from time to time, but yeah, 463 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't remember. Actually, it's strange that period 464 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: of time, that was it because we used to eat 465 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: at the RA a lot. The RA canteen was amazing 466 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: back then at the RA schools canteens incredible. Yes, yeah, 467 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: it's the same one, same, the same place under the 468 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: in the dungeon under the building, and they had the 469 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: most incredible canteen there. We have a common thread. We 470 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: have many things in common, you and I, but one 471 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: of them is our huge respect for James Baldwin. Yeah, 472 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: and he was, you know, from me, a formidable character 473 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: and absolutely history. What is it? What was your linked to? 474 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I I remember living in crouch End. I 475 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: was coming to the end of my MFA at the 476 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: R and I just I can't. I think I just 477 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: stumbled on the fire next time, and I remember sitting 478 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: down and reading it in an afternoon on the porch 479 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: of the It's very strange flat we lived in and 480 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: It was quite an odd design because we were our 481 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: sort of porch area was the roof of the place 482 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: underneath us, and we were surrounded by um, the backs 483 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: of houses, and so he had the sky opening up 484 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: above you, but then these backs of houses and then 485 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: Alexandra Palace in the distance. It was kind of a 486 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: really amazing view. But you're kind of in this amphitheater 487 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: as well. So but and normally that bothered me having 488 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: the feet that people were watching. But I was so 489 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: I remember being so engrossed in this book over the 490 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: course of an afternoon that I just sat there and 491 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: read the whole thing. And Yeah, that that was really 492 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: that stayed with me, That gave me, gave me a 493 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: lot of strength. You went upstairs to the pastry kitchen, 494 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 1: what was that like? It's incredible up there. It's huge now, 495 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: it's extraordinary to see. It's it's such a simple, tidy, 496 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: neat environment to see all these huge, exciting things coming 497 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: out of and making others cakes because we're doing an 498 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: event tonight. Yeah, they actually had the take so welcome 499 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: to the pastry kitchen hidden lair upstairs. My name's Bella 500 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: Tubs and I'm the head pastry chef at the River 501 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: Cafe cooking and baking. The net is an amazing irons, 502 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: but also there's a great baker, so she wanted to 503 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: see the lenta, almond and lemon cake. So I'll leave 504 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: it to you guys, how do I make a plent cake? 505 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: So we cream the equal parts butter and sugar together, 506 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: and we tend to add all of our lemon zest 507 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: and lemon juice at that point, just to make sure 508 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: it's like fully infused into the butter, make sure it's 509 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: beautifully light and fluffy before our kitchen. He's over there, 510 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: and we'd yeah, just leave the butter and sugar creaming 511 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: for at least a good ten minutes before we then 512 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: start adding our eggs and are all our dry ingredients. 513 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: You can ground the almonds really finely into a beautiful 514 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: flower with the plentyin, and then yeah, slowly but surely 515 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: add the sort of dry stuff with the eggs. Right, 516 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: And so is this because again I was always taught 517 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: you fold, you fold the powder in, you fold the flower, 518 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: you fold them. Does it make a difference with a 519 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: plantiquet because the folding was to keep the air in 520 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: or something to keep it. So we use a paddle 521 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: in our mixer. So essentially that's the same sort of 522 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: process as folding. I think if you were to do 523 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: it my hand, sort of very romantic wast speed. Is 524 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: it the essence in the oven straight away? So yeah, 525 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: we use a paddle and then incorporate all the ingredients together, 526 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: line a tin on the base and side, and then 527 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: in the oven for an hour and a half at 528 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: one fifty and a half one fifty and is that 529 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: depending on size. So this is for us, this is it, 530 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, that will tend to serve about twenty portions 531 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: in the restaurant, give or take. But it's lovely to 532 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: have a breakfast. It's a really nice cake. You're feeling 533 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: very tacative after tea or I'm trying to think of 534 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: any other time of day. But yeah, and then we 535 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: serve it with this gorgeous Taranos sauce over the blood 536 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: oranges and a dollop of creme fresh. It sounds good. 537 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: It's the most beautiful cake I think we serve on 538 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: in this adulty side of the restaurant and school, just 539 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: with the yellows and the sort of burnt oranges. And 540 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: this is because a River cafe but up until about 541 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: four years ago, we never had a pastry chef. You know, 542 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: we never had a pastry kitchen. We just all made cakes. 543 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: You know. It's the idea that every chef had to 544 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: make a cake, you know, and had to make it 545 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: a tart, and it was all part of the thing. 546 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: And then, first of all, some of them, I don't know, 547 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: I feel like that, but some people are really good 548 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: at cooking, you know, beef for lamb or fish or vegetables, 549 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: and they don't like making cakes. And then some people 550 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: or just love making cakes and don't like doing doing 551 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: everything else. So yeah, we and then I guess we 552 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: got bigger, and then we had that space. And then 553 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: you used to come in the morning and somebody would 554 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: be rolling out, you know, pizza dough or pasta filling 555 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: and next to a nemesis and alarm to go off. 556 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: I have to stop making the tomato sauce and go 557 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: take something out of the oven. So we've got very 558 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: grown up and very professional had a pastry kitchen. Yeah, 559 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: and it's all good, but it's a little bit far 560 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: away because sometimes we don't go it up there. And yeah, 561 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: so it's a dream, Yeah, it's a dream. To have 562 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: that much space, Yeah, to bake it. And it's quite calm, 563 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah, when you go up there, they're making Yeah, 564 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: they're making all those cakes. Durro so told me that 565 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: you you cook with rigor that you when you bake 566 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: your cakes, that there's a kind of discipline and a 567 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 1: kind of organization and away. So maybe you were brought 568 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: up that way or do you think it's something you've 569 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: always Yeah, very much, so, very much so. My dad 570 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: was My dad was a kind of cook who would 571 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: stand over something and chick cook. And you can send 572 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: anything else to be a dereliction of duty. Like you 573 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: don't leave your post. You just stand there and stare 574 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: at it. If it's boiling an egg, cooking a curry, 575 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: you stand there and you don't leave it because it's 576 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: going to burn. I've chilled out a bit with that. 577 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: But there are certain things you make that you have 578 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: you can't leave alone, like porridge, Like I had porridge 579 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: this morning. When have you been in doing your painting 580 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: all day? And then you do have friends, would you 581 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: like to cook it? So the last I did cook 582 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: dinner for a bunch of friends a few weeks ago, 583 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: and I'm very very indecisive and probably not not the 584 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: most confident of cooks. So I cook. I always cook 585 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: like five things and the hope that somebody will like 586 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: one thing and eat it. So I don't do that. 587 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: With your painting, I do pretty much. Yeah, yeah, it's 588 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: the same way. Paint really a lot. Just do a 589 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: to figure out which one works. So I cooked a 590 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 1: venison pie topped with like mash. So I did that, um, 591 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: roast chicken. I forgot what the other thing? Vegetables do 592 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: you like? I love cooking kale and carola narrow and 593 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: things like that. I kind of almost dick thementt hot 594 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: water to drag them out so they're almost raw, which 595 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: drives my mom insane because she hates it. She's like, 596 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 1: it's tough, it's just drewey. Why don't you cook? I 597 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: was always saying that, Mom, you have to see them 598 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: in the goodness. You need this, you know, you're you're 599 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: you need you need all these vitamins, and you have 600 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: to just get through it because it's good for you. 601 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true, but I think it's 602 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: always always. You know, in England they boil everything. They 603 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: used to, Yeah, boil everything for hours. As a friend 604 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 1: of mine used to say, you know when when suddenly 605 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: people started working, they say, oh, we only you know, gosh, 606 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: we don't have time to cook. So we're only going 607 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: to be able to cook the vegetables for half an hour. Yeah, 608 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: but then you know, then the Italians do cook them 609 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: for a long time. They don't have anything authentic except 610 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: for pasta the time. Vegetables are usually cooked for a 611 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: long time, but they're usually stewed in olive oil, or 612 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: if they're if they're boiled and they're boiled to they're 613 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: quite soft, but then a lot of olive oil eleven 614 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: after that. Yeah, we talked about food and growing up 615 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: ban Ghana and painting and traveling and cooking, and so 616 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: I think we also think how food does affect our memories. 617 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: And it's been great learning about your life through through 618 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: food and your memories. And I suppose the last question 619 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: to you, and if you were to say that there 620 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: was a food that you might turn to when you 621 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: need comfort, So food that not necessarily when you're hungry, 622 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 1: but when you feel that somehow eating something will make 623 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: you feel better, Maybe you feel more loved, less tired, 624 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: less lonely, less invisible whatever it is. Is there a 625 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: food that you would go to for comfort? Yeah? Yeah, 626 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: there is actually, and it's it's hard to get right. 627 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: So um, you have to buy the right ones and 628 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: they have to be the right level of right. Spence 629 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: is killing me. They can't be too right and they can't. Okay, okay, 630 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: give me quiz. It's something that looks like one thing 631 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: but is actually another. It's like a large version of another. Ye, 632 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: but did you say you got the outset it? They 633 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: look like banana zad Rogers, so zad Rogers, our producers 634 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: just tell my my it. Don't even let me get 635 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: a story. I don't think so. So um. But the 636 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: particularly the the the red what we call the red 637 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: plantains to the ripe one because it's and I love 638 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: it because it reminds me of my mom and my 639 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: dad and being at home and it was always a 640 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: real treat and my mom will still cook it when 641 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 1: I go home. But you you, we tend to do 642 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: it the lower cholesterol version. So cut them and roast 643 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: them in the oven. But like I said, they have 644 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: to be at the right point of right. Nothing I 645 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: know out of the skin, no oil, nothing, just in 646 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: a non stick, a really good non stick pan, because 647 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm the wise that you won't get them off, and 648 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: then you serve them with peanuts. Oh yeah, peanuts and plantains. 649 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: That's it. Okay, yeah, comfort, very comforting. Okay, Dad, tomorrow 650 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: morning in the pain kitchen, show us how you do, 651 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: and thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. 652 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: It's pleasure, thank you, absolute pleasure. The River Cafe Lookbook 653 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: is now available in bookshops and online. It has over 654 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: one hundred recipes, beautifully illustrated with photographs from the renowned 655 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: photographer Matthew Donaldson. The book has fifty delicious and easy 656 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: to prepare recipes, including a host of River Cafe classics 657 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: that have been specially adapted for new cooks. The River 658 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: Cafe Lookbook Recipes for cooks of all ages. Ruthie's Table 659 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: four is a production of iHeartRadio and Adami Studios. For 660 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 661 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.