Speaker 1: Welcome to What's Burning. I'm Rachel Nichols here with Mr
Speaker 1: Stephen Jackson. That would be NBA Champion extraordinaire, Steck. You're
Speaker 1: making waves on Instagram. You're doing everything this week. Would
Speaker 1: you put out you said Lebron wasn't a top five
Speaker 1: player currently? On the I Am Athlete podcast, you posted
Speaker 1: an I G post you said that, what, Jordan's your
Speaker 1: number one all time, Kobe's number two, Lebron's number three?
Speaker 1: What's going on? Yeah, he's definitely my third. And I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not speaking from I have to tell you this.
Speaker 1: I'm not speaking from a fan perspective. I'm thinking from
Speaker 1: a player's perspective. You know, I've been around players, not
Speaker 1: been around those locker rooms in those games, and I
Speaker 1: played against most of those guys, and uh, I've seen
Speaker 1: different things from actually being out there on the course.
Speaker 1: So there's no disrespect. But I think if being in
Speaker 1: the top three all time, I think they're still saying
Speaker 1: a lot about somebody. Absolutely, and he's not done yet too,
Speaker 1: so we gotta wait to see what happens there. Right.
Speaker 1: I want to talk more about current stuff though. Trade
Speaker 1: deadline Friends. Thursday, February ninth a little more than a
Speaker 1: week away. It's feels like it's one of the more
Speaker 1: open years in recent history in terms of especially the West,
Speaker 1: like anyone could win, anyone could lose. There's this whole
Speaker 1: plot of teams that are sort of separated by only
Speaker 1: five games between third and thirteen place, So it's kind
Speaker 1: of hard to tell which teams are going to go
Speaker 1: in which direction. Which means I want to play a
Speaker 1: little game with you, my friend. It is called blow
Speaker 1: it up or stay the course? Should these teams sell
Speaker 1: at the deadline or keep their core pieces? And we
Speaker 1: go through a few teams. I gotta start with Phoenix
Speaker 1: because this is a team that was in the Western
Speaker 1: Conference finals just two years ago. They dropped down to
Speaker 1: a second round exit last year. This year, stack their
Speaker 1: number nine in the West, one game under five hundred,
Speaker 1: and look, they're one of the oldest teams in the NBA.
Speaker 1: Chris Paul thirty seven, not playing to his usual standards.
Speaker 1: There's the whole DeAndre Ayton quagmire. They've got Jay Crowder
Speaker 1: as an asset. He hasn't played all season because he
Speaker 1: wants that chunky contract the Sons didn't want to give
Speaker 1: him and in the middle of it all, you know
Speaker 1: who's there. Devin Booker twenty six years old looking at
Speaker 1: the team that is eight and fourteen when he doesn't
Speaker 1: play so staff, what should Phoenix do? They definitely need
Speaker 1: to blow it up right to it ain't no secret, um,
Speaker 1: you know they you know all the stuff that then
Speaker 1: went on with the owner. You know that that has
Speaker 1: put a cloud over their team. They need to kind
Speaker 1: of start from scratch CP. It's basically you know, got
Speaker 1: them to the finals, but everything has been kind of downhill, sister,
Speaker 1: and you know, a lot has been going over that
Speaker 1: team with eight and it's just so much, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think they need to blow it up.
Speaker 1: I think they have to make a decision who they
Speaker 1: can keep. But in the order for them to get
Speaker 1: back to where they are right, they definitely have to
Speaker 1: break it up. That feels extreme, blow it up. I
Speaker 1: mean they've still got a decent core. What about just
Speaker 1: adding someone, what about just like tinkering and adding some
Speaker 1: of it? Yeah, I just don't think there's nobody out
Speaker 1: there all all of all the key players are big guys.
Speaker 1: That was that you know they called players. There's one
Speaker 1: player away all those guys are locked in the contracts.
Speaker 1: Most of those guys are locked in the contracts so
Speaker 1: and are happy way they're at. So um, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I just I just don't see that
Speaker 1: that working. That the core is good, right, the core
Speaker 1: is pretty decent, you know. But I just think that
Speaker 1: the star problems was what is what they need to
Speaker 1: have make some us some much changes. Look Chris Paul, clearly,
Speaker 1: I mean, he's thirty seven. He can't be what he
Speaker 1: was five years ago, maybe even two years ago. I
Speaker 1: still want him for playoff experience on this team in
Speaker 1: key moments, and I just we'll talk about O g
Speaker 1: and Obi in a few minutes because we've gotta have
Speaker 1: a whole Toronto discussion as well. I think he could
Speaker 1: make a big difference there. I feel like if they're
Speaker 1: willing they get a new owner, if they're willing to
Speaker 1: spend spend some money, spend some draft picks, they could
Speaker 1: tweak enough to really make a run. But they'd have to.
Speaker 1: It's like a half blow up. I'm with you. I'm
Speaker 1: like a half blow up. And I do think Eton
Speaker 1: is not a lock to stay there. Um, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying he's available, right now, but I do think that,
Speaker 1: you know, Booker is a nonstarter. I don't know if
Speaker 1: Ayden's a nonstarter. We'll see, We'll see. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Portland's started the season nine and three, good,
Speaker 1: good start, but it's gone way downhill. Blazers sitting at
Speaker 1: number twelve, three games under five hundred and stack. This
Speaker 1: is a team that did not think they would be here.
Speaker 1: They spent a lot of money this summer. They signed
Speaker 1: Damian Lillard to that extension that will make him one
Speaker 1: of the most well paid players in NBA history. They
Speaker 1: brought in Jeremy Grant, They have Josh Hart, they have
Speaker 1: Anthony Simon's Shaden Sharp. Those are their two young pieces.
Speaker 1: We know what a good coach johnsy Billups is, so
Speaker 1: it's clearly not enough with all those pieces. And when
Speaker 1: it's a rough season in Portland, you know, the question
Speaker 1: it always comes back to, is there a point the
Speaker 1: Blazers need to trade Dame and his salary and start
Speaker 1: from scratch? What do you think? I just think the
Speaker 1: way the way they got their money set up, Rachel,
Speaker 1: it ain't just dang. They got a lot of money
Speaker 1: tied up in a lot of guys over there that
Speaker 1: can be key trade pieces, you know, and and they
Speaker 1: got some guys over whatever rages that can go to
Speaker 1: other teams and be that one guy, you know. So
Speaker 1: Portland has I think Poortland, out of any team, has
Speaker 1: a lot of pieces to make big trades and to
Speaker 1: make a better team for Damon Chauncey. But they just
Speaker 1: haven't done it. Over the years, they brought certain guys
Speaker 1: in that they thought was gonna make, uh make a
Speaker 1: change for this team, and they just haven't done it.
Speaker 1: And uh, I think just losing c J was was
Speaker 1: a was a big loss for them. C Json my guy,
Speaker 1: what the the The combination of him and Dane was
Speaker 1: just special to see every night. But they just they
Speaker 1: couldn't get it done either. So they're gonna have to
Speaker 1: uh find a way to get Dame another big name player,
Speaker 1: and that Rachel for some help because he's been doing
Speaker 1: this for so long. I don't think Dame is gonna leave.
Speaker 1: I don't think they want Dame to leave. I think
Speaker 1: it's gonna have to be all those other pieces and
Speaker 1: put their money together. Yeah, that's a great point because
Speaker 1: they're kind of this catchwain two, right, Dame can't really
Speaker 1: go to them and publicly asked for trade after all
Speaker 1: he has said and done and genuinely feels about his
Speaker 1: loyalty to the city. They can't trade him away as
Speaker 1: a franchise. They can't do that to the fans and
Speaker 1: just be like, yeah, we're getting rid of Daan Willard.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a tough position to without him
Speaker 1: saying he wants to go. They had an interesting situation
Speaker 1: with Jeremy Grant Stack because Dame wanted him, they were
Speaker 1: tight from the Olympic team. He asked Portland to go
Speaker 1: out and get Jeremy. They did um, but he's got
Speaker 1: an expiring contract, so they did offer to extend him army.
Speaker 1: Grant reportedly rejected the extension. It could just be because
Speaker 1: he can get a lot more money in the summer,
Speaker 1: or it could be because he's going to look around
Speaker 1: in the summer. If you're Portland's do you take that
Speaker 1: risk and keep him on Or is that one of
Speaker 1: the pieces that when you say, hey, they gotta make
Speaker 1: big changes around Dame, that you say great, if you're not,
Speaker 1: if we might lose you for nothing this summer, we
Speaker 1: gotta get rid of you. Well, that name is different Rage.
Speaker 1: That's one of those guys I keep uh the energy
Speaker 1: he brings and the way he's been playing the last
Speaker 1: couple of years. I think he could be one of
Speaker 1: those guys that really can help any team. He's one
Speaker 1: of those guys that's the one player away guy. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't think he's I don't think he's the
Speaker 1: guy that needs to leave Rich. I think it could
Speaker 1: be other guys in that team. And damn, we got
Speaker 1: him for a reason because you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: guys like like his energy and this effort and he
Speaker 1: brings it every night. Yeah, no, he's He's a player's player.
Speaker 1: There's no question about it. I want to go over
Speaker 1: the East because we got Chicago sitting at number ten.
Speaker 1: There's no timetable for when a Lonzo ball is going
Speaker 1: to come back becau zach Lavine. We know it is
Speaker 1: locked up for forty plus bill per year until seven,
Speaker 1: but the Rosen is gonna enter free agency not after
Speaker 1: this season but the next one. And Mushevik is a
Speaker 1: free agent after this season. I gotta say, like, I know,
Speaker 1: the big swing they took with those three guys is
Speaker 1: their core, but their ceiling is not a championship ceiling,
Speaker 1: it is clearly lower. And you've got Alex Caruso, who
Speaker 1: everyone in the league seems to want. What would you
Speaker 1: do if you're that front office deck, Well, they got
Speaker 1: they got a lot of money tied up in the
Speaker 1: big man. So you know, once and once he becomes
Speaker 1: a free agent, they can they can get two big
Speaker 1: pieces hopefully up put a little package together to get
Speaker 1: two guys and that can come in and get a
Speaker 1: banger probably and another and another big man that can
Speaker 1: score to kind of to have two guys equal him.
Speaker 1: But that team is just not put together to be
Speaker 1: a championship team, like you said, right when you look
Speaker 1: at it, they got, they got, They got a lot
Speaker 1: of guys that we like as as basketball fans and
Speaker 1: watching the game. But just a combination of Alonzo being
Speaker 1: heard de Rosen, you know, having his nice zach lavine
Speaker 1: being in and out, you know, Uh, Caruso being fan
Speaker 1: favorite and he's not even the star of the team.
Speaker 1: Is like, it's a lot of things that's going on
Speaker 1: over there that that that don't equal winning. And uh
Speaker 1: that's why you see that the things going on the
Speaker 1: way they are. I mean, if you're a Laker fan
Speaker 1: watching Alex Caruso and also hearing that the front office
Speaker 1: could get I mean, there are reports out there the
Speaker 1: Bulls are asking for as much as two first round
Speaker 1: picks for him, and the Lakers coustle have that. That's
Speaker 1: painful enough. But there's talk about the Lakers wanting Luchavik.
Speaker 1: What do you think of that? Would you like to
Speaker 1: see him there? I mean I like that. I mean
Speaker 1: the combination of him and Anthony Davis, that's gonna take
Speaker 1: a lot of press off of Anthony Davis. I'll tell
Speaker 1: you that when he comes back. Um Um, I like it, right.
Speaker 1: I think that'd be a good move for m Anything going,
Speaker 1: anything for them, be a help to try to change
Speaker 1: things there, because you know they still have time. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, I just certainly think with Uchavik being expiring,
Speaker 1: you gotta just cut bait at this point with this
Speaker 1: idea that those three are going to get it done
Speaker 1: for you. But we'll see what the Bulls want to do.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Toronto to we mentioned o Ganna Nobe earlier.
Speaker 1: Raptors twelve in the East. They've got Scottie Barnes, who's
Speaker 1: twenty one years old, he's setting a lot of their
Speaker 1: future timeline. Fred van Bleet and Gary Trent Jr. They
Speaker 1: could walk for nothing this summer. They've got player options,
Speaker 1: so they're right for a trade if the Raptors want
Speaker 1: to go that blow it up direction. And again O
Speaker 1: G and nob he is supposedly the hottest guy on
Speaker 1: the market stack according to you know, front office sources
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. He is the guy that everyone says,
Speaker 1: that's your one piece away. So he is going to
Speaker 1: command insane price on the trade market if the Raptors
Speaker 1: go that direction. So should the Raptors go that direction?
Speaker 1: Should they just kind of blow it up right now?
Speaker 1: I mean me personally, I'm I'm not. I wouldn't agree
Speaker 1: with O G. I can't say his last name. I can't.
Speaker 1: I don't agree with O G being that Yeah, O G.
Speaker 1: I I can't agree with that. I don't think he's
Speaker 1: that that that guy to me, um, yeah, he's a
Speaker 1: young tality. He plays hard, but he has a lot
Speaker 1: of holes in this game. To me, he's not that
Speaker 1: efficient offensively. He makes a lot of aggressive hustle plays,
Speaker 1: but just a guy you can just give the ball
Speaker 1: to and go get you thirty. He's not that guy.
Speaker 1: So um, I like him, but I just think it's
Speaker 1: so much things. There's so much stuff that's wrong with
Speaker 1: that team. As far as the personnel. Um right, Um,
Speaker 1: they don't. I don't think it's just built. It's built
Speaker 1: to to compete like they've been in the past, you know,
Speaker 1: just having that the right size three guard. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes they they're they're one, two and three. They're having
Speaker 1: in the game of time that they're they're real small.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm said that they they're not the
Speaker 1: size of a team that we're looking at. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be in the playoffs, but um, a lot of things
Speaker 1: need to change it. I like the coach. I think
Speaker 1: the coach is solid um and I think Vambie's time
Speaker 1: in Toronto maybe up because you know, he's had success
Speaker 1: there and it happens to everybody. It's not that he's
Speaker 1: not playing well, deserves to be there. But you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying that everybody running onnesday course sometimes in places, well,
Speaker 1: we saw the Raptors when it was Kyle Larry. Everyone
Speaker 1: thought they would deal Kyle Lowry because his contract was
Speaker 1: gonna be up that summer and the Raptors just said,
Speaker 1: out of respect for him, they didn't feel like they
Speaker 1: found a good enough deal, so they kept him, and
Speaker 1: then of course they did lose him. They're kind of
Speaker 1: in the same situation with Fred van Bleet. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know he's got a player option, but still they're
Speaker 1: basically looking at him possibly losing him for nothing this summer.
Speaker 1: I gotta think that they will make a different decision
Speaker 1: this time. I mean, Fred van Bleet, while he's done
Speaker 1: great things for that franchise, does not have the Kyle
Speaker 1: Lowry status in Toronto in terms of that respect factor.
Speaker 1: And I don't know. The Clippers I think are huge
Speaker 1: contenders to get him because the idea of finally giving
Speaker 1: them a real starting point guard and pairing him with
Speaker 1: Kwhi Leonard again is very appealing in l A. So
Speaker 1: I can see that trade happening, and we'll see with
Speaker 1: Ojana nov I know Dallas is you know, interested in
Speaker 1: what happens there. There's a couple of there's a couple
Speaker 1: of teams that think if they put him next to
Speaker 1: their superstar, do that to Luca Rage, Don't do that
Speaker 1: to Luca. Don't do that. No, I don't do that.
Speaker 1: Well we will see it's gonna be an interesting week, Sack,
Speaker 1: and we'll be back next week, just a couple of
Speaker 1: days before the deadline, so we will talk were about this.
Speaker 1: But I gotta take a little about that the games.
Speaker 1: I know you saw that Lakers Celtics game over the weekend.
Speaker 1: How the refs missed that foul in Lebron? What are
Speaker 1: sending the line for the win? We all know that
Speaker 1: was a funk up, But I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about the aftermath. Right the Lakers are pointing to four
Speaker 1: games now where they say they should have one but
Speaker 1: didn't do to officiating mistakes that obviously would shift them
Speaker 1: a lot in the standings. Lebron has been tweeting four
Speaker 1: days now he doesn't understand why he's targeted, and the
Speaker 1: Twitter account for the NBA Refs Union published this. They're
Speaker 1: saying the miscall was quote gut wrenching for us. They said,
Speaker 1: quote this play will weigh heavily and cause sleepless nights
Speaker 1: as we strive to be the one. Feels good to
Speaker 1: be lebronn Man. Right, Hey, Race, I gotta say it right,
Speaker 1: if we had social media when we played. Nobody has
Speaker 1: been filed in the history of the NBA, to me
Speaker 1: than Raw on our tests, nobody, because he was bigger
Speaker 1: than everybody that guarded him every night. Right, nobody got
Speaker 1: filed and he would have been if if he could
Speaker 1: have done that, I would have put a picture of
Speaker 1: a referee and him getting fired. He would have got fined.
Speaker 1: So crazy, This is just unbelievable because it happens Rachel,
Speaker 1: happens all the time. It's happened to me, It's happened
Speaker 1: to a lot of players. I mean a lot of stars,
Speaker 1: especially guys that have the ball to end the games.
Speaker 1: It happens. But the fact that he's able to single
Speaker 1: it out on I g and and and keep talking
Speaker 1: about it, and then everybody just keep posting and keep
Speaker 1: posting it. Pat Beverley got fine. I don't know if
Speaker 1: Braun gonna get fine. And that's what it feels good
Speaker 1: to be Braun, to be able to talk about the
Speaker 1: ref like that. I do not think Lebron is gonna
Speaker 1: get fined. And I mean it's funny, right, I mean
Speaker 1: Shack used to always say the same thing as Lebron. Right,
Speaker 1: I don't get the calls and and they're both right,
Speaker 1: I mean they don't get every foul called on them.
Speaker 1: Do you think they should or do you think the
Speaker 1: way players have to defend them? It just is what
Speaker 1: it is. What do you take because you played against
Speaker 1: both those guys. Man, I'm gonna just say this, Yeah, honest,
Speaker 1: gets filed so many times and so many fires. It
Speaker 1: just happens, right, you know. And you know the referee
Speaker 1: has been bad. It's nothing new. They're always bad, you know,
Speaker 1: because and I say this, Race, because you have a
Speaker 1: lot of guys out there that never actually played the
Speaker 1: game with basketball, right, they know how to officiate the game.
Speaker 1: So it's some plays that the way you move, your buy,
Speaker 1: the way you fall, some of those players are not
Speaker 1: gonna be filed. But but some blatant, like just blatant files.
Speaker 1: If you know the game and watch the game, have
Speaker 1: been playing the game, you won't miss those and and
Speaker 1: and and and that's why it happened. It's been happening, Race.
Speaker 1: But you know, if you Lebron and it was a
Speaker 1: big game, you know, to to be able to point
Speaker 1: it out and put it all on I g. Everybody's
Speaker 1: going crazy, But the referees always do stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Rach is nothing new. Well, Darvin Ham said he thinks
Speaker 1: there should be a fourth referee on the fourth to
Speaker 1: catch more stuff like that. Do you agree or is
Speaker 1: that to quite it up? I mean that that could
Speaker 1: be an answer, but that also could clog up the
Speaker 1: cloud too, so you know, having another rep out there,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that. That's a lot. Sometimes you see
Speaker 1: guys running into referees as is with three da so
Speaker 1: so I don't know how to a work race, but
Speaker 1: that would be a good idea to just to see
Speaker 1: if it will work well. They experimented with it in
Speaker 1: Summer League a few years ago and then they didn't
Speaker 1: do it, so I gotta think they it didn't quite take,
Speaker 1: but we'll see. I don't know. Every time something like
Speaker 1: this happens, everything gets put under the microscope again. We
Speaker 1: will find out. We gotta talk All Star to stack
Speaker 1: because they announced their starters last week. A few selections
Speaker 1: that caught people's eyes. Zion Williamson in there despite only
Speaker 1: playing twenty nine games this season. You've got Katie as
Speaker 1: a starter over Joel Embiid, even though Durant has obviously
Speaker 1: been hurt. May not even make it back for the
Speaker 1: All Star Game. Where are you in terms of voting
Speaker 1: a number of games a guy has played. How much
Speaker 1: does that factor in for you if you were picking
Speaker 1: the All Star selections, Well, I mean it matters a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean, Katie's played the buckle the season. You know,
Speaker 1: he just went down recently, you know, and he's been
Speaker 1: carrying his team. One of the best players in the
Speaker 1: league of course at the top of the talk. So
Speaker 1: and I'm happy for Zigon. Rates are really happy for him.
Speaker 1: But you know, play at twenty nine out of fifty
Speaker 1: one games is not a lot. You know, it's it's team.
Speaker 1: The team has been playing well too, but you know
Speaker 1: that you got some kind of way, uh figure out
Speaker 1: this voting. You know, there's so many guys that that
Speaker 1: dedicate themselves to playing every game and you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not I can't hold it against them because of
Speaker 1: the injury. You know, that's unfortunate sometimes, but there's so
Speaker 1: many guys that actually play almost every game that's out
Speaker 1: there helping their team and you know, and have their
Speaker 1: team at the top of their conferences, right that deserves
Speaker 1: to be in that spot. Um, So you know, they
Speaker 1: got to really look at that. Man. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: happy for them, but I think you know, you gotta
Speaker 1: play at least thirty five for the games, you know,
Speaker 1: the beginning of the season to make it up to
Speaker 1: be All Star. It's tough. I mean I always feel
Speaker 1: like when you're voting for All NBA, when I have
Speaker 1: voted for that, I have really taken into account how
Speaker 1: much did you play, how available you were, because All
Speaker 1: NBA is about what kind of season did you have
Speaker 1: this season. I will admit I am always a little
Speaker 1: looser with my All Star our votes because I do
Speaker 1: think when people say, oh, it's not supposed to be
Speaker 1: a popularity contest, it is literally a popularity contest. That
Speaker 1: is what it is. People vote for who their most
Speaker 1: popular favorite player is. It is the All Star game.
Speaker 1: There to me has to be a little more room
Speaker 1: in this when you're voting for this for just who
Speaker 1: are the biggest stars? Who do people want to see?
Speaker 1: Who's electric out there? I do look at those votes differently.
Speaker 1: It is tough when you've got guys who played you know,
Speaker 1: less than you know right around half the games and
Speaker 1: other guys who've played all the games and it put
Speaker 1: up really good numbers. Two. But I do get why
Speaker 1: not only did the media and the fans vote for
Speaker 1: zion Um. The fellow players actually put him, i think,
Speaker 1: in in third spot. They really voted high for him,
Speaker 1: and that to me is also interesting too. They published
Speaker 1: the NBA who the players voted for. The players account
Speaker 1: the votes and you can kind of see who they
Speaker 1: respect and who they don't. Nikola Yoki, for example, got
Speaker 1: more votes from the players than Lebron for the west
Speaker 1: on court spots. That hasn't happened before. That kind of
Speaker 1: speaks to this like growing, you know, respect among the
Speaker 1: players for your kitchen, just people being like he's crazy,
Speaker 1: he's crazy. Good um. And then it went the other
Speaker 1: way with Trey Young. Stack. Listen to this. The other
Speaker 1: players ranked Trey Young as the twelfth best guard in
Speaker 1: the East. They put LaMelo Ball, Tyrese Halibert and a
Speaker 1: bunch of other guys ahead of him. Trey's averaging game.
Speaker 1: What do you make for the fact that they other
Speaker 1: players put him as the twelfth best guard the East. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they gotta get out their feelings, right, they gotta feelings.
Speaker 1: There's no way he's the twelve best point guard in
Speaker 1: the East. It's no way. Um, you know, you know
Speaker 1: he's one of those guys that you know, he wants
Speaker 1: to compete every night. You don't care who you is.
Speaker 1: He's gonna talk his noise, you know. And and he
Speaker 1: has a servace swack about himself. He's a small guy. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some of the way he's some of the shots he
Speaker 1: takes and how he finishes in the pain is is
Speaker 1: amazing to be his side. So he has a chip
Speaker 1: on the show to rage. And I don't blame him.
Speaker 1: But you know that that that that says a lot
Speaker 1: to the race, even though he's twelve. That says a
Speaker 1: lot to That says a lot to That says a
Speaker 1: lot of that's that's that's that's respecting a different way.
Speaker 1: What do you mean, Well, yeah, put me on the
Speaker 1: y y'all putting me at the bottom because y'all probably
Speaker 1: hating on me because we are because I talked so much.
Speaker 1: I talked so much trash and I'm cocky, but I'm
Speaker 1: married to tin A and I guarantee every time we
Speaker 1: step on that court, I everything that you say I
Speaker 1: don't do, I do, and I put my I put
Speaker 1: points on you. I get twin points on everybody out here.
Speaker 1: So you might not like it, but you gotta respect it.
Speaker 1: Who was that guy when you were playing? Who? Like?
Speaker 1: Just players around the league did not like even though
Speaker 1: they had to respect his game. I'm always I always
Speaker 1: felt like Ron was good with other players though, did
Speaker 1: other players not respect Ron? I was with him? They
Speaker 1: were they respected him, rage, they respected him. But on
Speaker 1: the court he didn't respect nobody, right, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. It was the way he the way he played,
Speaker 1: looks so disrespectful. Rage. It's just no, I've never seen
Speaker 1: nobody play basketball I like that in my life. I
Speaker 1: just think it's very interesting to see who they like
Speaker 1: who they don't. And also, by the way, the players
Speaker 1: not taking this that seriously. Chad home Grind got four
Speaker 1: votes from the players. He has yet to play a
Speaker 1: single game. I don't know. I should the players have
Speaker 1: more more of a percentage of the votes, but come on, guys,
Speaker 1: a lot of emotional guys raised. They don't need to
Speaker 1: have votes. On the radar presented by Draft Kings Sports Book,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the Pacific Division. Interesting right now, stack
Speaker 1: the Kings, the Warriors, the Clippers, the Sons, Lakers all
Speaker 1: within five games of each other. So you can look
Speaker 1: here at the odds. But if you just look at
Speaker 1: those five teams, who do you think finishes with the
Speaker 1: best record out of this pack? I will have to
Speaker 1: go the Warriors. I just think as they Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just feel like as they get get healthy with the
Speaker 1: experience they have, you know what I mean, I think
Speaker 1: they can find a way to ramp it up and
Speaker 1: go on to run by the to the season. They
Speaker 1: better fix that road record. Of course, that's that's the
Speaker 1: main problem. But you know, you ought to be a
Speaker 1: championship team, you know, you have to win on the road,
Speaker 1: and then They've been able to figure out some years.
Speaker 1: But I think right now they just need to worry
Speaker 1: about finishing the season on a good note, and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, everything goes to click like it has in
Speaker 1: the past. They also have you know, that's like sixteen
Speaker 1: game player kind of thing. Those guys have been doing
Speaker 1: this for so long they know when to turn it up.
Speaker 1: So I'm not I'm not worried about them in the playoffs.
Speaker 1: I wonder how they're going to finish the regular season.
Speaker 1: I do think you gotta watch out for the Clippers
Speaker 1: because I do think they're going to make a move
Speaker 1: at the deadline, so that could impact how they finish,
Speaker 1: but we shall see find out legendary moments presented by
Speaker 1: top Shot and Stack. Of course we're talking legendary moments
Speaker 1: with you. We got to talk about We Believe Warriors.
Speaker 1: So many memorable moments from that team. What do you
Speaker 1: choose on the court most memorable We Believe Warriors moment? Well,
Speaker 1: I got too quick was rich. I was able to
Speaker 1: hit seven threes and that deciding game, I think that
Speaker 1: that was the most I was able to hit. And
Speaker 1: it was special for me that game because uh be
Speaker 1: Baron Davis came to before that game. He told me
Speaker 1: he wasn't feeling well and um and uh his knees
Speaker 1: wasn't brought me. He told me he really need him.
Speaker 1: And after the game he gave me a compliment on TV.
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't see it to probably like eight
Speaker 1: years later on the on on YouTube or something, but
Speaker 1: they interviewed him after the game on T and T
Speaker 1: and they asked him, um about my play and he
Speaker 1: was like a lot of people say a lot of
Speaker 1: things about Stephen Jackson, but they never mentioned how great
Speaker 1: basketball player is and and I hold that to my heart.
Speaker 1: So that's two of the greatest moments I remember from
Speaker 1: that time. Anyone who doesn't mention what a good basketball
Speaker 1: player you are, friend is missing the boat. Before I
Speaker 1: let you go, Stack, we gotta talk nfl. Um, that
Speaker 1: was rough for the forty niners this weekend, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie. And that was also quite crazy for the
Speaker 1: Chiefs at the end. What do you think of the
Speaker 1: games this weekend? You know, it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate for
Speaker 1: the Bengals. Um, there was a great game. I hated
Speaker 1: to see in like that over punity, big old clumsy
Speaker 1: guy running too hard. You can't make that type of
Speaker 1: mistake in the game. I would love to see that
Speaker 1: game going over time and see both teams had a
Speaker 1: ball and uh leaving into the quarterbacks hands and not
Speaker 1: in the referees hands. But congratulates to the Chiefs many
Speaker 1: but they would. I think it's three times in the
Speaker 1: last four years they've been a Super Bowl. I'm mistaken.
Speaker 1: And the Eagles, you know, um, it's good to see
Speaker 1: two black quarterbacks in the game. I'm not an Eagles fan.
Speaker 1: I'm a Cowboy fan, so I'm not saying anything good
Speaker 1: about the Eagles, but I will say that I'm happy
Speaker 1: that it's two black quarterbacks able to headline of the
Speaker 1: Super Bowl. It's beautiful. It was nice. You saw Joel
Speaker 1: and Beat and James Harden at the game supporting. I
Speaker 1: love it. I always love it when like players from
Speaker 1: one team in the city come out to the players
Speaker 1: in the other team. So that made let's go Chief,
Speaker 1: Let's go Chief. That was gonna ask you who you
Speaker 1: got in the Super Bowl, though, you got just because
Speaker 1: you don't want to see another NFC East team win
Speaker 1: or what. Well, Um Kelsey is a friend of the show,
Speaker 1: So I'm going for the Chiefs. I'm never I'm never
Speaker 1: going for the Eagles. Um men, Gilly the Kid and
Speaker 1: while from me, and that's where the game. We've been
Speaker 1: arguing all the time about this, but I'm never saying
Speaker 1: anything good about the Eagles ever. I feel like I
Speaker 1: know a lot of Giants fans and when the Eagles
Speaker 1: and Patriots played in the Super Bowl, they didn't they
Speaker 1: were very conflicted on who to root against. It's just
Speaker 1: that they'd like an earthquake or something to happen so
Speaker 1: no one could win the game. That was the best outcome.
Speaker 1: So y'all in the NFC East or you very it's
Speaker 1: very it's very visceral for you. Yeah, this person Stack.
Speaker 1: We're gonna catch you on all the Smoke later this
Speaker 1: week with Charles Barkley. I'm so excited for that. Thank
Speaker 1: you for today. Everything's awesome. I can't wait to see
Speaker 1: that either. Rachel Charless was he did his thing. Man. Uh.
Speaker 1: I didn't know how that interview was gonna go because
Speaker 1: you know, I've said some things about Chuck and you know,
Speaker 1: in the media and all that, but uh, he came
Speaker 1: in as a big brother. He came in as somebody
Speaker 1: who's been doing this for uh for forever and the season,
Speaker 1: and he came in, um showing us the same respect
Speaker 1: that we gave him. So it was beautiful. Well, look,
Speaker 1: Chuck has said things about guys out there too, so
Speaker 1: he got well, no, but he knows you gotta be honest, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't pull punches. The really good people
Speaker 1: in this game cannot pull punches. That's why people love
Speaker 1: listening to you all. That's why people love listening to him.
Speaker 1: So I love hearing that you guys are all together
Speaker 1: in one place, and I can't wait to hear it.
Speaker 1: That's gonna be really good now, We've got a special
Speaker 1: interview with Jocelyn rose Lyon. She is the award winning
Speaker 1: director of Stand, coming out this Friday on Showtime. Here's
Speaker 1: a quick look at the trailer. One of the greatest
Speaker 1: players in the instrument was cheated out of his career.
Speaker 1: I noticed my mood was not standing for the national man.
Speaker 1: Am I saying that everything in America is bad? No,
Speaker 1: but whatever the bad is, and as a less we
Speaker 1: don't stand for my moon. Never said I'm gonna burn
Speaker 1: the house down, but the clan burned his house down
Speaker 1: his willingness to take a stand. He should be celebrated
Speaker 1: for that. Al Right, you guys just saw the trailer
Speaker 1: for Stand, the Story of Mahmud abdul Rof, and this
Speaker 1: premieres on Friday on Showtime. We are very lucky to
Speaker 1: have the director of the film, Johnson rose Lions with
Speaker 1: us today. Welcome. Thank you, Rachel, so great to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I don't think everyone knows
Speaker 1: what Stand is the story of, so you can you
Speaker 1: just tell the audience what they can expect and what
Speaker 1: sort of logline for this film is. Yes, Stand is
Speaker 1: a story of well, I use basketball as the vehicle
Speaker 1: to tell Montmod abdul rolf story, which is a very dynamic,
Speaker 1: layered story. There are mental health issues, activism, it's it's
Speaker 1: a very layered story about his journey to find his
Speaker 1: paternal family, his kind of inner journey with Tourette syndrome,
Speaker 1: and of course his journey with the NBA and the
Speaker 1: media bias he experienced with his protest in some people
Speaker 1: don't even know what he did, or what he was protesting,
Speaker 1: or who he is. So can you explain for people
Speaker 1: who may not have known that pocket of history what
Speaker 1: his story with the NBA is. Yes, I mean part
Speaker 1: of it's a great question, Rachel, because part of why
Speaker 1: so many people don't know about Matt Mud abdul Rao
Speaker 1: story almost thirty years later is because social media didn't
Speaker 1: exist when he took a stand and when he made
Speaker 1: prayer during the national anthem, he had just converted to
Speaker 1: Islam and he made a prayer, Um, it's a lot
Speaker 1: uh and or his dua he made doua made prayer
Speaker 1: the Islamic prayer and Uh. He was really silenced. So
Speaker 1: he only had one outlet, which was through the media
Speaker 1: and the television's Um. There was no social media for
Speaker 1: him to explain what was behind that stand and that protest. Well, look,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people watching this may hear
Speaker 1: that and they go, oh, okay, well that's a sports documentary.
Speaker 1: I did love the fact that you just said it
Speaker 1: was a way too vehicle to tell the story. This
Speaker 1: is a very emotion packed roller coaster ride of a story.
Speaker 1: I don't think you have to be a sports fan
Speaker 1: to watch this. I mean, it's great if you are,
Speaker 1: but but I wouldn't think that you'd have to be right.
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I think sports just like any vehicle,
Speaker 1: you know, I look at things through the lens of light,
Speaker 1: like I think humans. We we radiate light, and when
Speaker 1: we look at people who are stars, we say, well, wow,
Speaker 1: they're a star really, because they're generating light. They're they're
Speaker 1: gloding light. We're very drawn to the light. I think
Speaker 1: Matt Mood abdul ra has a light about him, and
Speaker 1: his story is a light and the container for his story,
Speaker 1: or the vehicle, is basketball. That's how we see his
Speaker 1: light shine through because he has a gift. But there
Speaker 1: was so many other layers in the story that Stand
Speaker 1: is able to tell. And I'm really honored that I
Speaker 1: was able to help guide that story in through through
Speaker 1: this movie. It's interesting what you say about the social
Speaker 1: media because there's so much talk about how mak Mood
Speaker 1: was Alan Kaepernick before Colin Kaepernick. But it's not that simple, right.
Speaker 1: I mean I saw a quote from Dr Harry Edwards,
Speaker 1: the renowned civil rights expert. He noted that cap had
Speaker 1: the power of as you say, social media, he had
Speaker 1: the force of the Black Lives Matter movement behind him.
Speaker 1: Then even going further back, Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul
Speaker 1: Jabar had the framework of the Black Power movement behind them.
Speaker 1: But his point was Mahmoud there was no greater movement
Speaker 1: behind him, And the quote was that he was an
Speaker 1: ocean alone with no paddle. How do you think that
Speaker 1: affected Makmoud's journey in his story? Well, mar Mood is
Speaker 1: he's just a really strong person and it's amazing what
Speaker 1: he went through. The fires that mottmod walked through to
Speaker 1: me make him an alchemist. And he was able to
Speaker 1: walk through literal fires like the case, the literal and fires,
Speaker 1: literal fires like they burned his home to the ground,
Speaker 1: and those fires, both inner and external, did not break him.
Speaker 1: They made him. They rebirthed him like a phoenix. It's
Speaker 1: like he really rose from the ashes and became the
Speaker 1: mottmod Abdul he was meant to. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: he is a testament too we can always be reborn
Speaker 1: to ourselves and we can overcome obstacles because he sure
Speaker 1: faced a lot. And it's really amazing to me too
Speaker 1: because I think going back to the Kaepernick before Kaepernick, Yes,
Speaker 1: mom Mood really took a stand in a time when,
Speaker 1: like David Aldridge said in the film, when we interviewed him,
Speaker 1: I was just so captivated by the way in which
Speaker 1: he framed it. It's you know, he was on in
Speaker 1: the island alone, like you said, Rachel, like an ocean
Speaker 1: with no paddle. I mean, he was out there alone
Speaker 1: and he didn't have a strategy behind the protest. He
Speaker 1: didn't have a campaign, he didn't have a team, he
Speaker 1: didn't have social media as an outlet to say what's
Speaker 1: next or what are we gonna do with this? So
Speaker 1: it was it was probably a time for him that
Speaker 1: was very introspective and based on the research I did
Speaker 1: and the amazing team I got to work with, the
Speaker 1: producers and writers, we we really got to see his
Speaker 1: journey was very painful and very difficult at that time.
Speaker 1: He ended up losing everything and see in the film Um,
Speaker 1: including his his wife, just his mental health was definitely affected.
Speaker 1: Everything was was was affected by that. And one of
Speaker 1: the really striking things in the documentary was to see
Speaker 1: how little support other players gave him at the time.
Speaker 1: You had guys like hakimla Juan saying, Hey, I'm a Muslim,
Speaker 1: I don't agree with his reasoning, I don't agree with
Speaker 1: what he's doing. What do you think was so complicated
Speaker 1: for other players, not not just them, but frankly now
Speaker 1: when it comes to these situations and when they're asked
Speaker 1: to put sort of their credibility on the line, and
Speaker 1: they get away a bunch of different stuff, right. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think Shaq has a SoundBite in the film that
Speaker 1: really actually kind of encapsulates how players may see that.
Speaker 1: To your point, I think a lot of times we
Speaker 1: look at things through the lens of the government or
Speaker 1: the corporations or the larger entity that's kind of paying
Speaker 1: us to controlling the space that we're working in. And
Speaker 1: I think it's very complicated it for players to take
Speaker 1: a stand um because of course it can jeopardize your
Speaker 1: standing with your job, um and your image. And we
Speaker 1: all know how quickly the media can label people as
Speaker 1: the villain or can villainize someone who's not, just because
Speaker 1: we we need heroes and in order to have heroes,
Speaker 1: we have to have villains. So I think it was complicated. Um.
Speaker 1: I do, however, see certain players in his life, like
Speaker 1: Jalyn Rose who was there with him at the time. Um,
Speaker 1: they did. They did cover him, and they did support him,
Speaker 1: and he did have the support if you if you
Speaker 1: look at the film from that lens, there was support,
Speaker 1: but it certainly wasn't the support that I think they
Speaker 1: would have given him now, and certainly not the support
Speaker 1: that the movement behind someone like Kaepernick had. Well. Look,
Speaker 1: I mean it's an interesting thing as we talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, player autonomy, which is of course a huge
Speaker 1: subject in the n b A. When guys are getting
Speaker 1: more money a in salary, getting paid and be in
Speaker 1: terms of sponsorship, it gives them more freedom to say
Speaker 1: this is what I believe. These are the social movements
Speaker 1: that I want to be supportive of, because if you
Speaker 1: decide you don't like it and you don't want to
Speaker 1: pay me anymore, that doesn't matter. I'm fine, Whereas back
Speaker 1: in the days that you guys are covering in this
Speaker 1: documentary that wasn't the case. Right. Well, it's interesting too
Speaker 1: because you bring up sponsors, and I mean, that's the
Speaker 1: thing is we never know what the stance of a
Speaker 1: sponsor will be when we make our own voice heard,
Speaker 1: and if it's not in alignment with their values or
Speaker 1: their brand, what that's gonna do to our relationship with them.
Speaker 1: Mott mood, his his strength and courage really inspires me
Speaker 1: because he did not care what he lost because to him,
Speaker 1: what I learned about him in directing the film is
Speaker 1: that his freedom and his peace is is being able
Speaker 1: to say and do what he feels is right no
Speaker 1: matter what. And so if it means losing his job
Speaker 1: or losing his image and certain way to to him,
Speaker 1: that's not the value, that's not success, that's not his piece.
Speaker 1: So I I really um it's a lot of courage
Speaker 1: and fearlessness that he had to take on that kind
Speaker 1: of approach with such huge entities. And you do a
Speaker 1: great job in the film of sort of showing how
Speaker 1: like with life, it all comes back around that that
Speaker 1: certain people later on after he did lose everything. The
Speaker 1: years went by and people started to come back around
Speaker 1: to his message, wanted him leading their basketball camps, wanted
Speaker 1: him for speaking engagements. So uh, he did the story
Speaker 1: you follow with his family. He was able to find
Speaker 1: some of his family. So it's a really as I said,
Speaker 1: it's very emotional. It's really deep tail of sort of
Speaker 1: all of these complicated issues, and I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of turn the camera back around
Speaker 1: on you and that we know pro sports is a
Speaker 1: male dominated industry. What was it like for you, as
Speaker 1: a young female director to be the one to tell
Speaker 1: the story. It's a great question. It was difficult in
Speaker 1: some ways. I have an amazing team, some of which
Speaker 1: are women producers. So I was lucky to have, um
Speaker 1: a mixed group, both women and men on my side. UM.
Speaker 1: Being in this space for a long time now, I've
Speaker 1: been very accustomed to being one of the only women directors. UM,
Speaker 1: and I'm definitely a minority. I feel like when we
Speaker 1: walk in in the room, so to speak, we are
Speaker 1: at a disadvantage already because people see us as a
Speaker 1: woman first and a filmmaker second. One thing, I really,
Speaker 1: UM feel very grateful for Actually was my first conversation
Speaker 1: with Steven Espinosa from Showtime Sports, the president of show
Speaker 1: Time Sports. We had an incredibly in depth conversation about
Speaker 1: my creative approach for the film, and we were on
Speaker 1: the same page. We spoke the same language. I shared
Speaker 1: with him that I wanted to tell motmod abdul raub
Speaker 1: story through kind of the lens of shadow boxing, that
Speaker 1: his journey was a very inner journey, facing his shadows
Speaker 1: to find his light. We talked about him being a fighter,
Speaker 1: and we talked about it being more than basketball, that
Speaker 1: basketball was the vehicle. And I remember Espinoza saying that
Speaker 1: this is the story of so many other things, a
Speaker 1: mental health activism. UM. But I think for me, I
Speaker 1: tend to I tend to trust what comes my way.
Speaker 1: If it's a yes, if it's for me, it'll find me.
Speaker 1: And I felt this film was for me to tell UM.
Speaker 1: I think that I've been prepared for this journey. I
Speaker 1: converted to Islam in two thousand and three, so I
Speaker 1: had a very personal relationship to converting to a religion myself,
Speaker 1: and I didn't grow up with that religion at all. Um.
Speaker 1: So similarly to Mot Mood, I was able to relate
Speaker 1: to that part of his journey from the spiritual lens
Speaker 1: and just just seeing kind of this space. We've grown
Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot of initiatives for women in
Speaker 1: film now where diversity and inclusion women in film behind
Speaker 1: and in front of the camera is actually a thing,
Speaker 1: kind of like activism at the intersection of athletes is
Speaker 1: a thing. So these things weren't big back when mot
Speaker 1: mood took his stand. Now they're they're actually trendy. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's acceptable. In fact, it's applauded. We want more
Speaker 1: women in a film. We want to see people take
Speaker 1: a stand for what they believe in. So I feel
Speaker 1: super grateful to be able to direct a film like
Speaker 1: this at a time like now. I mean, look, obviously,
Speaker 1: when you say things that are meant to come your way,
Speaker 1: do this was obviously meant for you. This film, it's
Speaker 1: an incredible achievement. I found it, as I said, just riveting.
Speaker 1: I can't wait until everyone else they're out there gets
Speaker 1: to see the job you did with it, gets to
Speaker 1: see the film. Thank you Jocelyn so much for being here.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Rachel for
Speaker 1: having me. It's an honor. So excited for everyone to
Speaker 1: see the film and for all you guys out there,
Speaker 1: don't forget what's burning. Available every week on Showtime Basketball YouTube.
Speaker 1: Also on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok all the Things Show Basketball.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.