1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Who did you have to be in order to get 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: the love and approval from one of your parents that 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: maybe their attention was a little bit more scarce. Oh God, 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: do you want to answer that? 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: No? 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 3: Not today Today's guest, one of the top relationship experts, 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 3: Jilly and Tareki, calls me out, and I'm so. 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: Grateful for it. I'm hopewordered and welcome to boys over 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 2: a space where we're learning and un learning all the 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: myths were taught about love and relationships. Here's the thing, 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: It's been almost a year since we started this podcast, 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: and I am still not healed. Not that I expected 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: to be fully healed year, but there are some things, 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: some habits of mine that I wish I could just 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: quit already. Like there's a boy that I keep going 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: back to and radical honesty here. I've been embarrassed lately 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 2: because I just don't feel strong enough to stop thinking 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: about him. In this haze. I've been wanting to talk 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: about Limerens. It's a therapy talk buzzword that I want 20 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: to better understand. To do so, I called on relationship 21 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: expert and best selling author Jillian Taureki, a name you'll 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: know if you pay attention to the self help space 23 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: at all, and there's a reason for that. She is 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: a pro. Her book It Begins with You, and her 25 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 2: online courses have helped millions of people healed their relationship 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: to relationships. So basically, she's doing what I've been trying 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: to do for myself for a long time. Now. I 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: am honored that such a pro sat down to talk 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: to me, and as you'll hear, she surprised me at 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: every turn. Jillian, Welcome to Boy Sober. 31 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. 32 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited because I feel like 33 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: people love having you in their ears, and you are, 34 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: I don't know, really in charge of this kind of 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: conversation right now, so I feel very lucky to have 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: you on. So thank you first of all for taking 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: the time. 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: Oh that's so sweet. Thank you for having me. 39 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: Of course, the title of your book is It Begins 40 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: with You, And I think that like the genesis of 41 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: this boy Sober project was really born out of the 42 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: understanding that, like I couldn't sort of outsource my issues anymore. 43 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 2: Like how did you get to the title, and like 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: where did that thought process begin for you? 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen? Mm hmm, my world fell apart. My 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: husband left, and he left really abruptly, and he did 47 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: it over text, and it was really mean. And yeah, 48 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: and it was the morning that I was having a 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: miscarriage and my mother, I had just found out I 50 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: had about two more months to live because she had 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: terminal cancer. So my whole world fell apart. And if 52 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: something like that happens to you, where it's not just 53 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: like a crappy thing happened, it's really like everything is 54 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: just falling apart. You have well, I mean, I guess 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: everyone has a choice, but usually you hit a bottom 56 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: so hard that most people enter what we call a 57 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: dark night of the soul. And it's in the dark 58 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: night of the soul that we become incredibly introspective. And 59 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: so and it's through the introspection I had to come 60 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: to terms with you know, I'm the common denominator. And 61 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: the thing is, it doesn't mean that I am the 62 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: only problem. It doesn't mean it's my fault, it doesn't 63 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: mean any of that. It just means who's going to 64 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: get me out of this? You know, because that's what 65 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: you think at first, It's like, is my therapist going 66 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: to get me out of this? 67 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: You know? 68 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: My mom is sick, She's not going to be able 69 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: to get me out of this. Are my sisters? Are 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: my friends? Like what's going to happen? And then you 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: just realize, actually, it's on you. And it's through that 72 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: introspection that I started to learn a lot about what 73 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: happened in the relationship and also how to change the 74 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: way that I think so that I could actually survive 75 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: what had happened. 76 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: You know, I have like been on this journey for 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: some time now. I think I had this sort of 78 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: awakening realization that like like you're sort of saying, like, Okay, 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 2: I'm in charge of my own destiny. And I often 80 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: refer to myself as a Limerenz junkie, okay, and I 81 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: feel like I'm still sort of searching for the tools 82 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: to be able to let go of that mindset, like 83 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: even okay, So I'll give you the moment in my 84 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: life that I'm at right now. I've been off and on, 85 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: off and on, off and on with the same man, 86 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: and it's finally sort of like reached ahead of course, 87 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: and my mind just like keeps going back, just keeps replaying, 88 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: like cannot seem to like let it go. And I understand. 89 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: That's like he's just sort of a fixture for it 90 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: right now, Like if it wasn't him, it would be 91 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: somebody else. 92 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: Well, what's this, what's the itch that he's scratching that 93 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: you believe if it could be anyone? So if it's 94 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: not about him and it could be someone else, he's 95 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: scratching an itch because you wouldn't be You wouldn't keep 96 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: going back to him or staying in this cycle if 97 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: your needs were not being met. 98 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: He's been wrapped up in my life in this very 99 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: specific way where like has felt like removed from sort 100 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: of a public perception and in some ways he's like 101 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: been a bit of my secret for a long time. 102 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: And so what is like the itch that he's scratching. 103 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: It's like, I think in some ways there's a little 104 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: bit of defiance to my relationship with him, right like 105 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: a sense of control that it gives me or something. 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: But I also think that you know, our relationship was 107 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: like extremely physical, and in some ways that physical closeness 108 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 2: like holds so much emotional intimacy for me, and letting 109 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: it go like has really felt like I'm sort of 110 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: shedding a lot of like I don't even know quite 111 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: what it is. 112 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: You know, so you're not with him now? 113 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 2: Heated? He texted me today. Oh my producer is shaking 114 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: her head. No, no, no, I am letting go of 115 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 2: this obsession with him. I'm just trying to really untangle 116 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: limbrence and lust and. 117 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: But why do you think it's limerens with him? But 118 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: what does limerens mean to you? 119 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: It's this like inability to stop thinking about someone that 120 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: is unavailable or that has specifically maybe rejected me in 121 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: some ways. I guess I see limerens as a step 122 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: beyond a crush. And it's also there's like a sense 123 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: of delusion to it as well. How would you define it? 124 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean it's kind of when you can't 125 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: stop thinking about someone and it is sort of like 126 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: a crush, and there is some sort of delusion to it, 127 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: but it's not You're not deluded, if you're aware. 128 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: Hmm. 129 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: But I would just say, I mean, I don't know, 130 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: maybe the sex is really good. 131 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 4: Ah, it's like or maybe or maybe you get bored easily, right, 132 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 4: and having him in your life is something that gives 133 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 4: you a little uncertainty. 134 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yeah. 135 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: I got it something, I got it. Something. 136 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, he is like a force of chaos that I 137 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: feel sort of comfortable with in some ways. You know. 138 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: So you have to learn how to meet your need 139 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: for adventure and novelty and change and do it in 140 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: ways it doesn't come in the form of someone who's 141 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: not fully what you want, and then you just have 142 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: to decide of what you want is actually what you're 143 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: not getting. Mm, because you sound very comfortable. 144 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean we're on a podcast right now. 145 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: You know, I've got my I've got my podcast voice on, Julia, 146 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: Tell me why do you think people are so much 147 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 2: more comfortable kind of in a chaotic dynamic than they 148 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 2: are in something emotionally stable. 149 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: Oh, there's not just one answer for that. So one 150 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: answer could be the one that might be the lowest 151 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: hanging fruit that a lot of therapists would say, which 152 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: is it's something from childhood. It could be that dad 153 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: was not available, it could be that there was a 154 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: lot of chaos with him. There could have been a 155 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: lot of chaos between dad and mom. And so it's familiar, 156 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: and we tend to gravitate to what's familiar, even if 157 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: it's painful. It's something that we know, so it gives 158 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: our unconscious a sort of sense of control. Another reason 159 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: is that you're not actually drawn to the chaos, You're 160 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: drawn to the familiarity. And so let me give you 161 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: an example. I knew someone who she kept on going 162 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: back to, this guy who treated her like crap, honestly. 163 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: I mean they first of all, they didn't even have 164 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: the same values. He would say that he was going 165 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: to come over one night and not show up and 166 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: not even call. He told her one day that he 167 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: was going to pick her up from the airport, and 168 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: he just never showed up. I mean, just like one 169 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: thing after another. But they still had that quote unquote connection. 170 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: Like you know, she felt very comfortable with him in bed, 171 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: She felt like because they had a friendship before it 172 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: became physical, so she had a level of comfort for 173 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: him with him. The reason why she kept on going 174 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: back to him, there was a pattern. So she would 175 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: break up with him, you know, get all strong, feel 176 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: empowered totally, and then there was a pattern to every 177 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: time she went back to him. And it was when 178 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: she was feeling untethered from her family. She was mentioning 179 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: her job, her career, her career path, right she was 180 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: feeling isolated and alone. She was feeling that existential feeling 181 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: that all human beings have experienced. She was feeling, and 182 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: I put this in quotation marks lost. So he was 183 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: a metaphor for what she was experiencing between herself and herself. 184 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is tough for me to actually, okay, 185 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: think about right now. 186 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: No, but it's so interesting. It's so interesting because we 187 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: think it's them, but really, what's if you can see 188 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: the pattern. And then there are other people who value 189 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: at a very high level adventure, novelty, surprised. They don't 190 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: like certainty, they don't like to know what's coming next. 191 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: They like to go on the roller coasters literally, you know, 192 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: they like that adventure, and so they're easily bored. But 193 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: they don't know how to fulfill that need of theirs. 194 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: So they they find it in drugs, they find in alcohol, 195 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: they find in destructive behavior, they find in destructive relationships. 196 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: So those are some of the reasons. 197 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm still stuck on. Like the person you're 198 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: with can in some ways be a metaphor for the 199 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: relationship to yourself. And I'm like seeing the relationship I've 200 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: had with this specific man for the last eighteen months 201 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: and a lot of ways. It's like making me see 202 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 2: my relationship to myself in a completely new way in 203 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: your work, What are the most common signs of experiencing 204 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: limerens or obsession? 205 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: Let me frame it this way. It is part of 206 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: being human to sometimes fantasize about a life that's not yours, 207 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: And it is normal and part of the human condition 208 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: to sometimes want a different life. And so getting back 209 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: to this idea of metaphor, when we are really kind 210 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: of find ourselves obsessing about this other person, they are 211 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: metaphor for wanting to feel like aliveness. So if we're 212 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: feeling bored, disconnected, a little bit off, or a lot off, 213 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: and then we meet someone who we like how they look, 214 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: we're attracted to them, we can easily get lost in 215 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: a fantasy because then that fantasy is escape from the 216 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: monotony of our reality. So it's longing for a different 217 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: life in its own way. And so that's how I 218 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: see limerens. And so the first sign is you're just 219 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: thinking about usually a stranger, meaning someone you don't know 220 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: that well, and they've sort of infiltrated your thoughts and 221 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: you can't stop thinking about that part of that is lust. 222 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: Part of that is escapism, and it's not some necessarily 223 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: something to be alarmed by. It can be there's a 224 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: spectrum and it can be really really intense, and for 225 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: some people it's really intense if they're going through some 226 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: sort of trauma and they're not dealing with the trauma. 227 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: Like think of that person as the drug to a 228 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: drug addict, right, it's like it's the escape. 229 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, with my situation particularly, is like he really 230 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: is this sort of like secret thing in my life, 231 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. He is like a man 232 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: who's not integrated into my social circles. He is a 233 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: man who my social circles do not approve of. He 234 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 2: is someone who in some ways lets me remove myself 235 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: from a sort of reality. 236 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: So who can you be with him that you can't 237 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: be with your friends or your other reality. 238 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: It's unfortunate and maybe a little bit embarrassing to admit, 239 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: but I think that there's something that's been a bit 240 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: ingrained in me, maybe handed down generation to generation, where 241 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: I don't really feel like comfortable being the most unraveled 242 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: version of myself around or in front of anyone, except 243 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: for maybe the man I'm romantically involved with so in 244 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: some ways, and this feels like almost definitely embarrassing to admit. 245 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: He's probably seen me cry more than most of my 246 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: friends and even my family. He's been with me like 247 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: in some moments of weakness, you know, and it's like. 248 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: Soments of weakness or moments of vulnerability. 249 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: Stop because I was, Okay, I have to tell you 250 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: something I was telling myself. I had a moment of 251 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: weakness because I added this man back to my close 252 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: friends on Instagram and I put something on my close 253 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: friend's story for him. But I was like I was 254 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: able to reframe that in my head prior to like, oh, 255 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: this was actually a moment of strength because I didn't 256 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: text him. You know, I didn't like open the floodgates completely. 257 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: I didn't like blow up his phone with like a 258 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: bunch of text messages that were like over emotional and 259 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: sort of like looking for something else. Like it was 260 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: a small step, and so in some ways I was like, Okay, 261 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: moment of strength. But it did make me sort of 262 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: think like maybe this constant idea with moments of weakness 263 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: for me is not so productive. 264 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: So you can cry with him, you can be a 265 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: little wild with him. To your friends and to work, 266 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: you are to my friends and to work. 267 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: Well, earlier I was explaining something and I was like 268 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: feeling emotional, So instead of just letting myself be emotional, 269 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: I was laughing a lot. And so I think, to 270 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 2: my friends, I never quite have my guard down, even 271 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: though we're all like, oh, laughing, silly, silly. Hope is 272 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: so crazy, She's this is so silly. But like beneath it, 273 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 2: there is of course sadness. 274 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: Are you the strong one in your group? Or are 275 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: you like the habit together one? Are you like the 276 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: always happy one? 277 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: Maybe I lean upbeat, yeah, always sort of upbeat, even 278 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: though there is an undercurrent of chaos. Constantly it's like, oh, 279 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 2: but she's fine. 280 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. But the thing is is that there's a part 281 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: of you it comes alive when you're with him, and 282 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: it's probably a lot of your femininity because you're describing 283 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: crying and you're describing vulnerability, and so if there's something 284 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: that comes alive when you're with him that you're not 285 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 1: able to access with others, then you see why you 286 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: keep going back. 287 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: I mean, what you've just said like hits me in 288 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 2: such an interesting way, like yeah, because maybe sometimes to 289 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: be able to be feminine, to feel like safe enough 290 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 2: in a space to lean into femininity. It's so interesting. 291 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 2: I've never thought about it like that. 292 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: Well, you're crying and you're vulnerable. That's not the only 293 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: thing that is what's feminine, but it's definitely you know, 294 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: the guard is down, you're open, you're with him. There's 295 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: that connection, and so you know, maybe that's the big 296 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: part of what you're drawn to. 297 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 2: Well, let's look ahead a little because you wrote this 298 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: book a bit of a guide on how to take 299 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: control of your romantic life, your personal life. 300 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, what do you say? 301 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: Is kind of step one for people who want to 302 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 2: get out of this loop self knowledge. 303 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: It's about understanding why you do what you do and 304 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: challenging the story that you tell yourself, because you can 305 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: tell yourself, well, I'm just addicted to the chaos. I'm this, 306 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm that, I'm this, and it's like, okay, well that's 307 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: part of your story and that's part of your identity, 308 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: I guess. But it's more than that, And maybe it 309 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: has something to do with your relationship with mom or 310 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: dad or something that you saw. Maybe it's because he's 311 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: an outlet for you, an emotional outlet, yeah, a physical outlet, 312 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: an adventures outlet. So it's really so starts with the 313 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: first step is just understanding that, like it does begin 314 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: with you, and so therefore you kind of want to 315 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: understand what needs you meeting and doing this, and then 316 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: also just to figure out what it is that you want, 317 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: because when we really want something, people will do almost 318 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: anything to get the thing that they really want. And 319 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: if they're not really trying, it's either one of two things. 320 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: They don't actually really want it or they don't believe 321 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: it's possible for them, and that's the only two reasons. 322 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: So you have to just really decide, like this is 323 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 1: working for you. You are not a victim of limerens 324 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: to the degree that you don't have control over this. 325 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: You have control, but you're doing things likely on unconscious level, 326 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: because you're meeting some of your needs. So the first 327 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: step is to understand what that is. 328 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you for like reinforcing like 329 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: you are in control. I feel like sometimes like me 330 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: personally maybe also people in general can get like a 331 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 2: little bit obsessed with how we like emotionally identify, you know, yeah, 332 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 2: and we don't often maybe say like, Okay, I'm experiencing limrens, 333 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: not like I'm constantly in a state of limerens. 334 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 3: You know. 335 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: Yes, what is. 336 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: Like your advice to someone who wants to sort of 337 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: like take that power back a. 338 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: Little, Well, it depends on the person, but honestly I 339 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: would start with moving their body. Yeah, you know, go 340 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: for run, lift some weights, do some yoga, get out 341 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: of your head. That's the first step. The second step 342 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: is also just then to look at your life and 343 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: decide what it is that you actually want and maybe 344 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: work with someone to help you figure out what it 345 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: is that you really want. And it's often very helpful 346 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: to write down, is what I want possible with this 347 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: relationship in my life, with this person in my life? 348 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: Is how I want to feel, is what I want 349 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: to accomplish, is what I want to build, is what 350 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: I want to create? Is how I want to sleep 351 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: at night? Is it possible with this in my life? 352 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes I have a difficult time admitting 353 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: to want something. How do you think someone can get 354 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: comfortable admitting they want something if they don't really have 355 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: experience with that? 356 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: Wait? Did you want to build this podcast? 357 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it just kind of happens naturally, I guess, 358 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: doesn't it. 359 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean it's a lot of people who say, well, 360 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: what do I do when I don't know what I want? 361 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: It's like, there's been lots of things that you have 362 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: in your life because you wanted it. 363 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: So maybe take inventory. Well. 364 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: Oftentimes when people say that they don't know what they want, 365 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: like in something like this, there's some sort of internal conflict, 366 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: Like you wanted to start this podcast and part of 367 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: the reason why you refer to it is coming naturally 368 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: to use because you probably didn't have any internal conflict 369 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: about it. You were clear, this is what I wanted, 370 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, and there was nothing. There was no tug 371 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: of war happening inside of you emotionally. But a lot 372 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: of times when we want something, there's some sort of 373 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: tug of war. There's some sort of internal conflict. It 374 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: could be I want this, but it's not consistent with 375 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: what my parents want from me. I want this, but 376 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what my friends are going 377 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: to think of me. I want this, but you know, 378 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: I also really feel like it's going to take away 379 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: fun and if I do it, then I'm not going 380 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: to have fun anymore. I want this, but you know, 381 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: then I'm not going to be able to like get 382 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: my needs met. So it's never about being able to 383 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: admit that you want something. It's about going a little 384 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: bit deeper under that layer and being like, what is 385 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: the inner conflict here? If I got this thing, what 386 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: else am I giving up? Because the thing that I'm 387 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: giving up is the thing that's actually keeping me unconsciously 388 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: from going for the thing that I actually want. What 389 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: do you think you're going to lose by going for 390 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: the thing that you want? And is that actually creating 391 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: some sort of choke hold in your life? 392 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: Oh? 393 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? 394 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: I'm just like, I'm getting comfortable with this perspective I 395 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: think is how I'm feeling, and I guess i'm you know, 396 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: I've quit a few things. I've given a few things up, 397 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: is what I mean. Like I've recently quit smoking cigarettes, 398 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: I've quit nicotine. 399 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: Oh, good for you, thank you. It's huge and very important. 400 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: I've given up drinking a few times because it just 401 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 2: had too much of a hold on me. I just 402 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 2: cannot stop myself and it takes me out of my reality. 403 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 2: It's like if I'm actively smoking cigarettes or something, it 404 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 2: takes me out of the room that I'm in, you know, 405 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: it takes me out of the conversation I am in. 406 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 2: And I truly wanted to give it up. And I 407 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: think I knew this about this man specifically, And I 408 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: know this about making change or giving up or releasing 409 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: is like you have to really want it. 410 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so bad. You have to want what's on the 411 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: other side. 412 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: Right, Why do you think giving up a person is 413 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 2: so much harder than giving pigarette? Like, because that's my 414 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: truth is it's like I've quit. It's like I see 415 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: this man like nicotine to me. It's like he regulates 416 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 2: my nervous system, like I am secretly doing it at 417 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: my house with you know what I mean alone, Like 418 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: no one's seeing me with them. 419 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: You feel regulated when you're with him, You feel relaxed 420 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: when you're with him. So why isn't this a relationship? 421 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: He doesn't want it to be. 422 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 2: Oh, I have like disorganized attachment, and so I get. 423 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: I get you don't have that, like you like you 424 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: have a disease. 425 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: I do. 426 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: No, it's not. 427 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: I feel uncomfortable when I am deeply liked by somebody, 428 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 2: And I think again, it's like I sort of run 429 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: the same pattern over and over and over again, which 430 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 2: is like get into an intense thing that lasts three months, 431 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: and then I'm scared and then I'm someone's like quasi wife, 432 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 2: and I've said yes a hundred times what I wanted 433 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: to say no, and so then I like blow the 434 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 2: whole thing up and then I go running back to 435 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: them because I have no other like place to sort 436 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: of be emotionally completely vulnerable or open or something. 437 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, we don't have the time 438 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: to go fully into this, but what I will say, 439 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: maybe a good practice for you to begin with is 440 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: actually learning how to communicate honestly. Yeah, no, definitely, this 441 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: is and having that courage to practice, and you can 442 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: practice in small ways, like you don't want to go 443 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: from zero to sixty. You want to practice in little things. 444 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: Maybe it's like something you do with your friend so 445 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: that you actually say no when you mean no, and 446 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: you start with that so that you don't actually get 447 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: yourself in scenarios with then you're like, oh my god, 448 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: this has gotten deeper than I wanted to. It's too fast, 449 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: and then you kind of feel out of control, and 450 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: then you think, Okay, the only thing I can do 451 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: is kind of run away. But you can prevent it 452 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: from getting to that point when you practice actually taking 453 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: a breath when something's uncomfortable, and you practice saying what 454 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: it is that you really want to say. 455 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, I do want to go back, though, 456 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 2: I want to ask you, why do you think it's 457 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: so much harder to in some ways quit a person, 458 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: right like quit your relationship, quit, quit listen. 459 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: It's it's like most things in life, there's a spectrum, 460 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: and on the very far end of the spectrum it 461 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: can be very intense. I mean I have worked with 462 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: people where I've told them to move because the person 463 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: that they were involved with, who was married and it 464 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: was super super unhealthy, lived in the neighborhood and it 465 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: was really really bad. I mean, it was really destroying 466 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: her life, and she left. She finally moved. She had 467 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: to remove like she couldn't do the work and really 468 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: explore what was going on while she was in proximity 469 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: to him. So sometime, you know, so that addiction to 470 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: a person can be really really intense. Something that powerful 471 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: usually comes from someone believing that they are actually not 472 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: worthy of the love that they want, so they keep 473 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: going for the love that's barely there and that almost 474 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: always can be traced to childhood and a troubled relationship 475 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: with one or both of their parents. But yeah, it 476 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: can be very addictive. It could be again, we get 477 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: emotionally attached to the highs and the lows, like oftentimes 478 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: and certain unhealthy relationships. There's a lot of like dramatic fights, arguments, 479 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: and then there's all this uncertainty and all this anxiety, 480 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: and then there's a reconnection. And then that reconnection that 481 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: happens after the fight that's really uncertain feels very powerful 482 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: in our system, right, and so we get sort of 483 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: addicted quote unquote to that cycle of that like intensity 484 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: and then relief and then intensity and then relief. And 485 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people are terrified. Some people don't know, 486 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: they've had no model of what actually a relationship is 487 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: supposed to be like, so they think that this is 488 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: what love is. 489 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 2: I want to get back to your book a little. 490 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. 491 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: I'm like, I've just been talking about myself this entire time. 492 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: I can't help it either. 493 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: What was like the most emotional part for you to 494 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: write about? Like, which part really just hits you home 495 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: in a way. 496 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, it's funny. By the time I wrote 497 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: the book, I had processed my divorce and that relationship 498 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: so hardcore. There was literally nothing residual. So when I 499 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: was writing about him, it was almost like I had 500 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: to force myself to go into mental state. I was 501 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: so far removed from it. So I would say what 502 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: challenged me the most was the last chapter, because my 503 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: relationship with my father was the thing that I had 504 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: continued to really try to figure out and to heal, 505 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 1: and he passed away while I was writing that chapter, 506 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: so that was definitely my goodness. Yeah, yeah, but my 507 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: relationship with my father was a very challenging relationlationship, and 508 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: it was the thing, you know, I if it weren't 509 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: for my relationship with my father, I wouldn't have ever 510 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: married my husband, and I wouldn't even ever have been here. 511 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: So it really was like sort of like a central 512 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: theme of my story. And so writing that last chapter 513 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: or the last truth, you must make Peace with your parents, 514 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: I was bringing my own understanding of what that means 515 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: into that chapter, and it was and because it was 516 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: something that I was still processing and it was still 517 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: sort of ongoing for me, and the fact that he 518 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: died when I was writing it. It was just that 519 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: was probably the hardest chapter. 520 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: I can't imagine how intense that must feel. When I 521 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: think about the relationship with my own father, it's hard 522 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: for me to write about him. It's a little bit 523 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:55,959 Speaker 2: like I can spend days, months, years thinking about how 524 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: a man impacts me, what that means about my word, 525 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: how he makes me feel, But writing about my father 526 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: is like, that's way more intense. I'll tell you, I've 527 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: never done it. 528 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a whole different ballgame, you know. 529 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: And like, would you say that is like to sort 530 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: of make the piece with you know, your first family 531 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 2: or your first figures of love, Like, is writing a 532 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: big tool for you? Is that what you suggest to 533 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: people are what's kind of the step? 534 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. It's interesting. Yeah, it has been. 535 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: And I'm writing my second book now and that's really 536 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: about relationships with ourselves and parents and whatnot, and it 537 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: is very cathartic. I think journaling is very powerful. You know, 538 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: when something lives inside our head, it's usually really big 539 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: and takes up a lot of space, and the moment 540 00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: you write it down, it becomes smaller and you get perspective, 541 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: because if it's in your head, you have no perspective 542 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: because you can't see your thoughts. But if you write 543 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: it down, then you have a different vantage point. It's 544 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: separate from you, and so it actually really helps to 545 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: release old stored emotions and thoughts. So yeah, I do 546 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: I do recommend it writing in some way right, getting 547 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: it out, getting it out, for sure. 548 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 2: We talk a lot about unlearning on the show, unlearning 549 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: sort of certain social scripts or means of connection or whatever. 550 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: And something we like to ask everybody is, what is 551 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 2: one thing you've had to unlearn about love? 552 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: I think a big thing that I had to unlearn 553 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: about love is that no one is coming to save you. 554 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: And there are few, you know, things I've had to unlearned, 555 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: But I choose that because my little secret, which isn't 556 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: a secret anymore, is that I'm kind of like a 557 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: secret romantic like. I like romance novels, I like rom coms, 558 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: like I can get into all of that. And what 559 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: romanticism teaches us is that you have a soulmate, and 560 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: that soulmate has an ability to read your thoughts to 561 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: make your life all better, to fit into your life 562 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: like a perfect love, and they also are highly evolved 563 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: and are going to love you in a way that 564 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: you were not loved by one of your parents. And 565 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: we know intellectually that's not true, but a lot of 566 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: people still think that that is the function of a 567 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: soulmate or what the right partner is. When the reality 568 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: is that when you first meet someone and everything is great, 569 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: you do feel like you're being rescued. You know, the 570 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: honeymoon f does feel like a reprieve from your life. 571 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: But eventually the anxiety comes back, the depression comes back, 572 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: the problems come back. Because no one is put into 573 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: your life to fulfill you. They're not there to complete you. 574 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: They're there to accompany you as you become more fully yourself. 575 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: Okay, I love that looking ahead. You know, I'm a 576 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 2: bit on this journey of like looking for a sustainable 577 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: and reciprocal partnership. And I know you mentioned a lot. 578 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 2: Love is a choice, but also like starting with self 579 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: love is one of the most important things. Do you 580 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 2: have a practice of self love and you whatesself look 581 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: like for you? 582 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: Self love to me is just self acceptance, and that 583 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: means that you see your fundamental value in spite of 584 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: the fact that you are flawed, so you can hold 585 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: yourself in high regard in spite of your ambivalent towards 586 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: certain parts of yourself. And for me, my sort of 587 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: like self love practices are usually very physical. I'm just 588 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: I'm a very active person. So for me, it's yoga 589 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: for me, it's walking. For me, it's taking care of 590 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: my body and moving my body. But then it's also 591 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: knowing where my boundaries are. You know where my boundaries 592 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: are with work, noticing when I'm falling back into familiar 593 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: patterns that I have where I'm being too hard on 594 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,479 Speaker 1: myself or pushing myself too hard, and being like, okay, 595 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let go. You know, I'm going to surrender. 596 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: It's keeping promises to myself, and it's also it's showing 597 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: up for others. That's a big part of self esteem 598 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: because if the world is just me, myself and I, 599 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: not only are you going to be unhappy, but you're 600 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: going to just be very self involved. And so we 601 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: raise our self esteem by actually being a good partner, 602 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: by being a good friend, by being good to others. 603 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: So that's important to me too, is building up my 604 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: character because everyone has character defects and so me just 605 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: kind of paying attention to my own personal character defects 606 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: and trying to do better. What I think is really 607 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: important to state is this, now that everyone on the 608 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: internet thinks that they are a therapist or coach or whatever, 609 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: there's never just one answer totally. 610 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 2: People are coming. 611 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: Fax and every case has its own thing, but there 612 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: are common patterns and so that's part of it. 613 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 2: It's so important because I think you're right to say, 614 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: like we're all online. Everyone thinks that they can like 615 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 2: give a take, give advice, give whatever. If there's sort 616 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: of like one thing that's sort of floating around the 617 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 2: internet when it comes to like love and finding love 618 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,240 Speaker 2: that you've seen that you could sort of take out 619 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: of the conversation that you feel like people need to 620 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: leave behind. Yeah, what would that be? Like, what is 621 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 2: it that you see that makes you go, oh no. 622 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: It's sort of the female version of red pill advice. Hmmm. 623 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: So it's so interesting. It's like act like you don't care, 624 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: you know, you only deserve someone who's super high value, 625 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: don't tolerate anything that's low value. And it's like, but 626 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: the metrics that they're using to define high value is 627 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: like he's doing everything for you. He's got this certain 628 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: job blah blah blah. But what makes someone high value 629 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: is not their job, because there's a lot of really 630 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: really dysfunctional people who somehow are phenomenal at work right 631 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: and making me Yeah, and so that's why I feel 632 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: so committed. You've got to really know who the person 633 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: is on the inside, you know what their character is. Yeah, 634 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: number one. Number two, I'm all for women empowerment. I'm 635 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: all for not taking crap. I'm all for, like, you know, 636 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: not tolerating a guy who's putting in a half effort. 637 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: I'm all for that. But what about you? How are 638 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: you showing up? And all this sort of red pill 639 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: advice is all about the other person and it's never 640 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: about well, what about me? And that's what I can't stand. 641 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 2: You got to get internal. 642 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: You've got to take responsibility. You got to be accountable. 643 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: It's not just about what someone is doing for you, 644 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 1: It's about what are you doing? 645 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: And isn't it like, you know, in this entire conversation, 646 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 2: it's like, isn't that the most empowering thing you can do? 647 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: Absolutely? 648 00:39:53,760 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, to take ownership, yea, yeah, absolutely. This 649 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: might have been one of my most vulnerable and personal 650 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 2: interviews yet. Thank you to Jillian for letting me talk 651 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 2: about myself so much, though I don't think she minded 652 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: flipping the script, and I'm so grateful that she was 653 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 2: down to play along and give me all that advice. 654 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: I have a feeling it was helpful for more than 655 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 2: just me to hear this, so I hope you got 656 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 2: a lot out of it too. If any of our 657 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: conversation resonated with you, I highly recommend her book It 658 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 2: Begins with You, and Jillian is coming out with a 659 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: companion work book in May called It Begins with You Now, 660 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 2: which I'm really excited to get, and you can always 661 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,479 Speaker 2: hear more from her on her podcast, Jillian on Love. 662 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 2: As always, thanks everyone for listening, and I'll talk to 663 00:40:50,360 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 2: y'all next week. Boy Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 664 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,800 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Hopewodard. Our executive producers are Christina Everett 665 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 2: and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff. Our 666 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 2: assistant producer is Logan Palau. Engineering by Bahid Fraser and 667 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 2: mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. If you liked this 668 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 2: episode Please tell a friend, and don't forget to rate, review, 669 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 2: and subscribe to Boys Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 670 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 2: and wherever you get your favorite shows.