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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff I've never told you. And today we're

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Speaker 1: going to tackle a topic UM that has been on

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Speaker 1: both virgetinized mine lately, which is hand sexuality UM. And

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Speaker 1: wanted to say right off the bat that sexuality varies

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Speaker 1: from person to person. It's the label that people choose

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Speaker 1: that they feel identifies them best, and they are not

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Speaker 1: really set rigorous definitions for a lot of this, so

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Speaker 1: we don't off all neatly into categories. And that's totally

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Speaker 1: cool and quite rad UM. I just want to say

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Speaker 1: that out the right, out the front. So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be working with UM a lot of stuff that Glad

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Speaker 1: has provided UM and people who identify the definite assitions

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Speaker 1: that they have come up with for pan sexual but

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Speaker 1: it is different in the definition is not not yet

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Speaker 1: such a stone perhaps. And the reason that Bridget and

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Speaker 1: I have been thinking about this a lot lately is

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Speaker 1: because it's been it's been making their rounds in the news.

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Speaker 1: It has um pretty recently. One of my idols, I

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Speaker 1: guess I could say so, I mean obsession slash idol

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Speaker 1: Janelle Money came out in an interview as pan sexual,

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Speaker 1: which was really really exciting. And as soon as she did,

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Speaker 1: she sort of broke the Internet with this announcement. The

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Speaker 1: word pan sexual became the number one search term on

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Speaker 1: the Merriam Webster website and under twenty four hours. That's

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Speaker 1: how much of an Internet breaker this revelation was. Because One,

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Speaker 1: I think anything that Jenelle Money does will always get

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Speaker 1: her interest because she's awesome. Two, I think people were thinking,

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Speaker 1: what the heck is this pan sexuality thing? Yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and on the nerdy side of things, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm on the Weather Report, and here on the nerdy

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Speaker 1: side of Nerd Report, Nerd Report exactly. Donald Glover and

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Speaker 1: the writers of his Orlando Calrisian character made news as

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Speaker 1: well by saying that that character was pan sexual. I

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Speaker 1: remember the day that we first decided to do this episode.

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Speaker 1: It really crystallized our various roles or or beats, if

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Speaker 1: you want to put it that way. You were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we should talk about pan sexuality because and I very

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Speaker 1: excitedly said to know Money, do any computer and he

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Speaker 1: said yes, and Lando Calversion from Star Wars. It was

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Speaker 1: a very nice moment that crystallized. I think, um, how

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Speaker 1: we approach the same topic in different ways exactly. UM

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Speaker 1: and other celebrities have made news coming out as pand

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Speaker 1: sexual as well, like Miley Cyrus, Lacey Green, Jazz Jennings Cia,

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Speaker 1: and Angel Hayes. UM. So let's let's let's start with

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Speaker 1: a definition that um Glad has provided. According to Glad,

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Speaker 1: pan sexual um sometimes called omnisexual, falls under the umbrella

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Speaker 1: of bisexual by or by plus, and they define it

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Speaker 1: as anyone attracted to people of all genders or sexes,

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Speaker 1: or regardless of sex or gender. The prefix pan means

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Speaker 1: all at its Greek roots, so it makes sense men, women,

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Speaker 1: and drogynist, transgender, intersex, anything in between. So one of

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Speaker 1: the things I love about this idea of pan sexuality

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, it really kind of allows for

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Speaker 1: folks who don't want to think about their attraction along

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Speaker 1: that by an area of I'm attracted to men or

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Speaker 1: women or both. It sort of allows for this idea

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Speaker 1: that you can be attracted to folks all along that spectrum.

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Speaker 1: And that's okay. I'm glad to see our our understanding

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Speaker 1: of attraction sort of catching up with where it needed

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Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, I am too, And a lot of

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Speaker 1: people will ask, well, how is this difference from bisexuality.

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Speaker 1: And there is a lot of confusion around the difference

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Speaker 1: between bisexuality and pan sexuality, and some people use the

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Speaker 1: terms interchangeably to mean pretty much the same thing. Janelle

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Speaker 1: Malnay herself labeled herself as bisexual until learning more about

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Speaker 1: pan sexuality. In her interview with Rolling Stone, she said,

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Speaker 1: being a queer black woman in America, someone who has

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Speaker 1: been in relationships with both men and women, I consider

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Speaker 1: myself to be a free as mother. Later I read

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Speaker 1: about pan sexuality and was like, oh, these are things

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Speaker 1: that I identify with. Two. I'm open to learning more

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Speaker 1: about who I am. Yeah, I love that. I think

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Speaker 1: I really identify with that. Um. I've always this sounds

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Speaker 1: so cheesy, but I've always said, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: someone who was attracted to a specific genitor. I sort

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Speaker 1: of fall for a person, so whether that person is

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Speaker 1: a man, a woman, non binary. UM, And I don't

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Speaker 1: think we've had the language to sort of describe that.

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Speaker 1: And I think for myself, queer sort of became a

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Speaker 1: catch all, where for me it was almost sort of

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Speaker 1: a crutch of laziness where it's like I don't actually

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Speaker 1: feel like I want to parse through the who, what, when,

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Speaker 1: where of my attraction and I don't know that I could.

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Speaker 1: So we'll just call it this and keep it moving.

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Speaker 1: We don't need to parse every little aspect of it um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, having a word that you can learn about

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Speaker 1: and dig into that feels like it you can express

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Speaker 1: yourself that way. It's really empowering. I think that's what

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Speaker 1: Janelle is sort of expressing in that interview, that learning

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Speaker 1: more about your own sexuality and your own attraction UM

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Speaker 1: is an empowering thing. Oh absolutely, And I am such

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Speaker 1: a proponent for just having I think having these words

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Speaker 1: and increasing our terminology when it comes to sexuality is

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Speaker 1: good because it once again I think we've just for

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Speaker 1: so long thought that you can neatly put people in categories,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think that you really can. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like if we're as long as we're keeping this

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Speaker 1: conversation moving forward and trying to find new ways, two

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Speaker 1: new new terms to identify with and we're talking about it,

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Speaker 1: I think that can only be a good thing to

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Speaker 1: get away from this kind of you are in this

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Speaker 1: category or this category. There's only these categories. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: to see that we're moving away from that um. But

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Speaker 1: if we look at bisexuality, Glad gives us this definition

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Speaker 1: anyone attracted sexually, romantically or otherwise two people of more

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Speaker 1: than one gender, or two people of similar different genders,

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Speaker 1: and who identifies as bisexual. In the words of advocate

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Speaker 1: Robin Oakes, someone who is by has quote the potential

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Speaker 1: to be attracted romantically and or sexually two people of

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Speaker 1: more than one sex and or gender, not necessarily at

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Speaker 1: the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and

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Speaker 1: not necessarily to the same degree. The president of the

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Speaker 1: Bi Sexual Resource Centers Board of Directors, Karen Strop, says

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Speaker 1: on the topic, pan sexual came out of the complication

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Speaker 1: people had with buy implying binary. And remember Facebook, Facebook

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Speaker 1: has almost sixty gender options and gender is fluid. The

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Speaker 1: difference between bisexual and pan sexual is mostly a question

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Speaker 1: of gender identity, and gender doesn't factor into the equation

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Speaker 1: for pan people. And we're going to talk a bit

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Speaker 1: more about that in a second. For sure, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot to unpack there. Yeah, there is a lot to unpack.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, we could do an entire episode on bisexuality,

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Speaker 1: and I want to, and Kristen and Caroline did one

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Speaker 1: on bio Ratire that is absolutely worth checking out. Sexologist

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Speaker 1: Carol Queen spoke with Folgue that actually, she said, acording

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Speaker 1: to her, there is no real definition of pan sexuality.

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Speaker 1: People who identify as pan sexual. She says, quote do

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Speaker 1: not desire everybody. They just don't rule somebody out because

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Speaker 1: of gender, which is a big misconception that pan sexual

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Speaker 1: people have an insatiable sex drive and that's why they

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Speaker 1: identify as pan Yeah. This is really speaking to my

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Speaker 1: soul right now, because, um, that sounds like me that

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Speaker 1: I don't rule people out based on gender. I think

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Speaker 1: it's about the person and sort of how you vibe together,

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Speaker 1: all all that like hippie stuff. Um, but there is

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Speaker 1: this attitude I think that folks who identify as bi

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Speaker 1: sexual probably get it to where people think, oh, you're

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Speaker 1: just a slut, or like, oh you just can't decide,

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Speaker 1: or oh you're confused, or oh you have an insatiable

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Speaker 1: sex driver. Oh all of these things that are really

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Speaker 1: negative and really sort of none of it is true,

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Speaker 1: not that you not that. I mean, I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are some slutty bisexuals out there, but you know, as

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Speaker 1: as a definition, you know, thinking that you identify that way.

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Speaker 1: It's because you're have an overactive sex driver, that you

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Speaker 1: are just greedy and want all the genders or something.

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Speaker 1: I think it paints are really unfair portrait of something

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Speaker 1: that is very intimate and personal. Two people are Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I read um so many accounts of people who

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Speaker 1: both from people who identify as pan and by that

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Speaker 1: they have trouble and relationships where people think that they're

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Speaker 1: just in a phase and that they'll grow out of it. Um,

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Speaker 1: which is incredibly frustrating. Yeah, that is frustrating. And the

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Speaker 1: idea that if you are someone who is by or

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Speaker 1: pan or queer, that if you let's say that you're

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Speaker 1: a woman and you date a man, you don't become

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Speaker 1: not pan sexual. You don't be or you could marry

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Speaker 1: a man and you could still be queer, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that people seem to think that I've dealt with

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Speaker 1: that so much where people think, well, you were in

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Speaker 1: a relationship with a man for two years and you

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Speaker 1: know those those feelings don't go away based on if

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Speaker 1: you're single, does that mean you aren't anything? No, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like you have your sec Your relationship with your

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Speaker 1: sexuality is for first and for most a relationship with yourself,

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Speaker 1: and I hate how we put labels on it based

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Speaker 1: on who you outwardly present to be dating. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: hate that I do as well. And also people never

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Speaker 1: know like you could be. I mean people, people don't

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Speaker 1: know what kind of situation you have life if they

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Speaker 1: see you holding hands with a guy on the street, like,

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Speaker 1: they don't know the situation. No, they don't. I remember

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Speaker 1: a crystallizing moment for young Annie. I was watching a

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Speaker 1: panel and I don't remember how sexuality came up in

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Speaker 1: this panel, but it did. And it was like a

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Speaker 1: man asking one of the panelists a question and I

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Speaker 1: got kind of defensive and he was like, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: completely straight. See that's my wife over there. And the

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Speaker 1: panelist said, that doesn't mean you're straight. Yeah, It's like, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if he thought, wait, am I straight in

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Speaker 1: the back of his I've got to re examine everything. Um.

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Speaker 1: It is worth saying, though, that people who identify as

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Speaker 1: by are not looking to reinforce a strict gender binary

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Speaker 1: and a lot of folks do claim both labels. A

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Speaker 1: Lile Cruz wrote an advocacy piece at bisexual dot org

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Speaker 1: that came with this quote bisexuality isn't binary. It means

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Speaker 1: attraction that isn't limited to one gender. If that sounds

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Speaker 1: very similar to the definition of pan sexual, that's because

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Speaker 1: it is so. Again, a lot of this is not

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Speaker 1: set in stone. BY does not stand for binary. Some

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Speaker 1: folks that identifies pans still label themselves as BY to

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Speaker 1: combat that bi erasure we were talking about earlier. UM

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Speaker 1: sex therapist Liz Powell commented UM sometimes on sometimes getting

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Speaker 1: grief for identifying as bisexual. Quote, They're like, you're reinforcing

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Speaker 1: the gender binary, And I'm like, that's not actually what

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Speaker 1: bisexual means, just the way pan sexuality doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: you're attracted to cook wear. It doesn't what she goes on.

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Speaker 1: If you're some who chooses bisexual as the identity that

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Speaker 1: fits you best, then that's totally fine. There are lots

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Speaker 1: of people who are non binary who are bisexual. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you are reinforcing the gender binary. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that you are less enlightened than pan folks. There's

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Speaker 1: no identity that makes you automatically more enlightened. It's just

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Speaker 1: about which identity aligns best with who you are and

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Speaker 1: how you work. UM and I did really want to

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Speaker 1: make sure to drive that home because I feel like

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Speaker 1: bisexual people get enough, get enough grief. Yeah, definitely, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: bisexual people alone, they're like, be nice to them, don't

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Speaker 1: you mean to them? Um, it's so true and honestly,

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Speaker 1: lizz is quote I think speaks to so much of

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Speaker 1: things I've seen where some folks act like certain labels

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Speaker 1: make you more enlightened or more hip or more whatever.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's just it's about what works for

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Speaker 1: the person and what feels right for the person. And

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Speaker 1: so I have a people be like, oh, well, you

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Speaker 1: know if you're if you're not Polly, then you know,

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Speaker 1: you're just part of the bourgeoisie and you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're not really hip. And yeah, it's about what works

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Speaker 1: for the couple, works with a person, what feels right

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Speaker 1: for the individual. I just hate how sometimes we forget

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Speaker 1: that these relationships are very intimate and personal, and that

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Speaker 1: we try to make assumptions about who people are based

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Speaker 1: on how they identify. Yeah. Yeah, um. Another quote from

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Speaker 1: the vice president of Buynet USA, um Faith Chettle him

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Speaker 1: as a person who identifies as pan sexual and bisexual,

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Speaker 1: I'm openly flaunting my attractions to more than one group

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Speaker 1: of people while also expressing and loving myself through a

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Speaker 1: pan sexual lens. That feels different for me, free ass mothering,

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Speaker 1: if you will, when it comes to my expression and

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Speaker 1: experience of my own gender queerness and of myself as

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Speaker 1: an intersex woman and fem So again, it's very personal

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Speaker 1: for each person it is. It's such a a intimate

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Speaker 1: personal thing, and people who identify as BY face enough

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Speaker 1: stigma from both within and without the l g B

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Speaker 1: t Q community, and it's something we should do a

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Speaker 1: whole episode on. I just wanted to be very clear

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Speaker 1: that people who are identify as BY can absolutely be

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Speaker 1: attracted to non binary folk. Absolutely, and just to sort

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Speaker 1: of piggyback off of that, I think that I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to do an episode around by phobia, but it is

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Speaker 1: important to note that people who are BY face stigma

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Speaker 1: from within other queer communities, and so it's it's facing

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Speaker 1: stigma from the world at large for being a marginalized person,

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Speaker 1: but then within your own, you know, in group of

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Speaker 1: queer folks, sometimes they face by phobia and it's real

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Speaker 1: and it's really harmful. Yeah. Yeah. Several studies suggest that

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Speaker 1: anywhere from forty of the LGBTQ community identify as by

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Speaker 1: and yeah, so we absolutely do not see that reflected

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Speaker 1: in media at all at all, pretty much never, or

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Speaker 1: if it is, it's in the weirdest way, they're probably

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Speaker 1: gonna murder you. Yeah, because they're crazy, they can't even

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Speaker 1: decide who they like. Of course they're going to murder you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna murder it's gonna be kind of an apartment situation,

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Speaker 1: some kind of weird apartment situation, and they're gonna murder

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend and then also the girlfriends. You actually described

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies, which is single white female.

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Speaker 1: Actually any genre of movie, it's fun fact about any

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Speaker 1: genre of movie where it's two women and one woman

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Speaker 1: wants to is like obsessed with the other one and

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Speaker 1: maybe wants to take her life, but it's also sexualized,

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Speaker 1: like maybe she's in love with her always in There's

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Speaker 1: the Hand that Rocks the cradle. Single white female obsessed

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Speaker 1: like all I've seen if it's if it's that kind

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Speaker 1: of movie, um, I saw one called Unforgettable with Rosario

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Speaker 1: Dawson saw by my self in the theater two pm

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Speaker 1: on a Tuesday, and I was like, in the heaven

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Speaker 1: you were living your best. Yes, there's not. There's not

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Speaker 1: a sexual undertone to that movie. But it is a

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Speaker 1: crazy person who wants to take the life of another

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Speaker 1: woman movie. Okay, So, if I ever need, if I

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Speaker 1: never ever need any questions answered about those types of films,

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Speaker 1: I'm a walking encyclopedia. I know who to call um.

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Speaker 1: As far back as By Magazines ran a manifesto stating

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Speaker 1: that there was there were more than two genders. From

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Speaker 1: the manifesto quote, bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do

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Speaker 1: not assume that bisexuality is binary, our geogamous in nature,

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Speaker 1: that we have two sides, or that we must be

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Speaker 1: involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings.

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Speaker 1: In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders.

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Speaker 1: Do not mistake our fluidity for confusion, irresponsibility, or inability

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Speaker 1: to commit. Do you not to equate promiscuity, infidelity, or

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Speaker 1: unsafe sexual behavior with bisexuality. Those are human traits that

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Speaker 1: cross all sexual orientations. Nothing should be assumed about anyone's sexuality,

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Speaker 1: including your own. Here here, Yeah, I love that. That's

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's and it's so true, and we all

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Speaker 1: do it, and I think, yeah, you see it in

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Speaker 1: pop culture. You see it reflected so often where folks

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Speaker 1: who are bisexual or pand sexual. It's just this idea that, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a freewheeland sex party all the time, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just so backward. Yeah, a lot of the negative

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Speaker 1: stereotypes they point out in that manifesto promiscuity and fidelity,

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Speaker 1: unsafe sexual behavior, Like, you shouldn't make those assumptions that

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Speaker 1: they do cross all sexual orientations. You should not make

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Speaker 1: those assumptions based on what people choose to identify as well.

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Speaker 1: I was even I was filling out this um I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is maybe it's like Team I.

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Speaker 1: I was filling out this this health survey. Basically they

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Speaker 1: ask you all these different questions to try to figure

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Speaker 1: out how risky you your sexual behavior is. And one

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Speaker 1: of the questions that that they ask that makes your

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Speaker 1: sort of sexual std risks, you know, answer go up

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Speaker 1: is do you have sex with only one gender? And

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Speaker 1: if you say, if you on this particular test, if

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Speaker 1: you said no, I have sex with more than one gender,

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Speaker 1: that gave you a higher sort of unsafe practices score,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was really strange. Because just because you

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Speaker 1: get down more than one gender doesn't mean that you

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Speaker 1: are having unsafe sex necessarily. It was just such a

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Speaker 1: strange assumption that is very bizarre. I wonder if that

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Speaker 1: is kind of I would love to hear the reasoning

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Speaker 1: for that, if there is anything anything legitimate behind it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could. It could very well be one of those

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Speaker 1: things where there's a statistical, you know, correlation. There was

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Speaker 1: a couple of other questions that I did find strange,

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Speaker 1: like do you have anal sex? And I thought, you know, again,

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Speaker 1: just because you're like, you could very well be having

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Speaker 1: protected anal sex all the time that one sex act.

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Speaker 1: In my mind thought, does that really equate to higher

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Speaker 1: risk behavior because it still could be protected sex that

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Speaker 1: you're having, or sex are having with a monogonous partner.

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Speaker 1: It just it's just interesting how, even when you think

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Speaker 1: about the medical profession, how assumptions about are sexual health

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Speaker 1: are made via how we identify and who we have

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Speaker 1: sex with. And I guess it's true, you know, for

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Speaker 1: gay men can't even donate blood in this country, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's based on nothing. So I think our medical

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Speaker 1: industry has not caught up with common sense. You know

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Speaker 1: that says, Yeah, just because I'm a man who sleeps

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Speaker 1: with men doesn't mean that i'm my blood is is

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Speaker 1: automatically no good when people need blood. Yeah, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: need to We need to work on changing that. That's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Another note, people who identify as by and or pans

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Speaker 1: sometimes also, or maybe instead, identify as a queer. A

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Speaker 1: study reported on in Psychology Today found that pan sexual

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Speaker 1: people quote overwhelmingly represented their sexual or romantic attractions as

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Speaker 1: falling within the bisexual range of the sexual continuum. So

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of crossing over um,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people claim multiple labels, um, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that the terms can't be used interchangeably.

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Speaker 1: Some people who are almost exclusively straight are exclusively gay

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Speaker 1: also identify as pan sexual. And one more thing before

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Speaker 1: we move on. Something we need to say, but really

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have to. It is a misconception, a small one,

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Speaker 1: but some people do think this, uh, that pan sexuality

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Speaker 1: includes things like best reality pedophilia. It doesn't. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: makes me sad that we have to say that, but

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Speaker 1: I know that we do. Um not Yeah, our audience

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Speaker 1: probably not. But yeah, someone out there thinks that not

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Speaker 1: not listening to this show. I hope do you listen

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Speaker 1: to the show? You know, hopefully, hopefully we'll get you

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Speaker 1: on the right track. But like your sort your stout.

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Speaker 1: But um yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned just because

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Speaker 1: I've seen that. I've seen that before, Like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we hear that argument and when people were making arguments

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Speaker 1: about marriage equality would say like, what's next? Am I

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Speaker 1: gonna marry it duck? What? First of all, the fact

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Speaker 1: that you that you went there, I think that's something.

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Speaker 1: But you know, no, that's not what people are talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just such a frustrating and uh like not even

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Speaker 1: why are we even talking about that? There's some of

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Speaker 1: a lot of people racing get married to ducks. I

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Speaker 1: don't think so. Um so. On their site, Glad includes

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Speaker 1: quotes of celebrities that have come out as pan sexual

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Speaker 1: to try to paint a better picture of what it means. So,

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Speaker 1: for instance, Ja Jennings describes it this way. Being pan

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Speaker 1: sexual basically means to me that you are attracted to anyone,

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Speaker 1: no matter they're sex, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, everything.

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Speaker 1: There's no limits. I'll date anyone. It's more that I

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Speaker 1: love someone for their soul. Physically, I think I'm more

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Speaker 1: attracted to boys, but sometimes I'm attracted to girls too,

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Speaker 1: so it's weird. Yeah, I love that love. I love

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Speaker 1: that she's just like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: just is what it is, like what it is, absolutely. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What I like about what Jazz says is it really

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Speaker 1: kind of reflects that you maybe don't have to have

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Speaker 1: this all figured out, and maybe it will change. Maybe

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Speaker 1: Jazz is attracted to boys more and at some point

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Speaker 1: we will be attracted to girls more and it will

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Speaker 1: go back and forth. Like I think that we have

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Speaker 1: been conditioned that you have to be hard and fast

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Speaker 1: about who you are attracted to. And I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: when people model that you don't have to have it

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Speaker 1: all figured out and that it's a fluid thing and

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Speaker 1: it can change. And that's okay. I do too. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Another musician who I love, Angel Hayes. She says to

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Speaker 1: kind of identify as pan sexual to me means just

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Speaker 1: to want love, to have a connection with anyone you

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Speaker 1: can find it with. Love is boundaryless. If you can

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Speaker 1: make me feel, if you can make me laugh, and

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Speaker 1: that's hard, then I can be with you and again, yes, right,

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Speaker 1: just this idea that not everybody feels the need to

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Speaker 1: put boundaries on who they vibe with, and it's really

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Speaker 1: about sort of if you click with the person regardless

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Speaker 1: of gender. The first openly non binary TV actor Asia

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Speaker 1: Kate Dylan, who also identifies as pan sexual, told the

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Speaker 1: Huffington Post quote, from the time I came to understand

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Speaker 1: sex and sexual orientation and all of that, I've identified

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Speaker 1: as pan sexual, and I've always felt like I had

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Speaker 1: the spiritual, emotional, physical capability of being attracted to any gender. Um.

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Speaker 1: So those are some real life, real life people who

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Speaker 1: identify as pan sexual. And when we get back, we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about some fictional characters who do. But

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Speaker 1: first we're going to take a quick break for a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. According to Blayer

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Speaker 1: dot com was a big year. Not only was it

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Speaker 1: the year that Donald Trump was elected, it was also

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Speaker 1: the year that they called quote the Golden Age of

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Speaker 1: the pan sexual TV character. They referenced characters like David

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Speaker 1: on the CBC comedy Ships Creek, who most people assumed

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Speaker 1: he was gay, but then later it was revealed on

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Speaker 1: the show that he was open to any sex or gender.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't really treated like a very special episode.

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Speaker 1: It was just sort of a nonchalant thing. Another character

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Speaker 1: who I love, one of my favorite characters on TV.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and call her a friend of

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Speaker 1: the show, even though she doesn't know who we are.

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Speaker 1: I don't think um a lot of Glazer on Broad City.

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Speaker 1: She you know, if you watch that show, her character

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Speaker 1: pretty much gets down with everybody, including of her own

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Speaker 1: doppelganger in one episode and a person who looks exactly

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Speaker 1: like her. Um. Yeah and so, and it's not treated

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Speaker 1: as anything that's like a big deal on the show,

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Speaker 1: which just who she is. Um, and it's great. Yeah, absolutely. Um.

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Speaker 1: Well again here I come on the on the nerdier

426
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: side of things. Uh, let's talk about some Lando Calorisian

427
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: and wonderfully played by Donald Glover and the new Star

428
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: Wars movie Solo. Before the movie came out, Glover made

429
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: a bit of a splash when he confirmed that what

430
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: many fans already suspected, that his Star Wars character was

431
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: pan sexual. Um. The film's co writer Jonathan Kasten similarly

432
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: told HuffPo that in his mind, Lando was pan sexual. Quote,

433
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I would have loved to have gotten a

434
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: more explicitly LGBT character into this movie. I think it's time,

435
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: certainly for that. And I love the fluidity, sort of

436
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: the spectrum of sexuality that Donald appeals to and that

437
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: droids are a part of. Because yes, and outer space.

438
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: I mean, these are working definitions of fictional characters. But

439
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: in outer Space, being pan sexual includes droids. Ando had

440
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: a relationship ish with Um are at the very least

441
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: feelings for his partner Droid L three three seven. A

442
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: review for the film called them the hottest couple in

443
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: Star Wars. Any forgive my Star Wars ignorance. What is

444
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: a droid? Just so we're all doing the same same

445
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: working definition. Okay, Um, well that's actually a really good

446
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: question because since I would say it's a humanoid robot

447
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: that Um has pretty much in Star Wars, in the

448
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: Star Wars universe has a personality UM. But some of

449
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: them are essentially walking trash cans, especially from the older movies,

450
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: Like I mean, they were literal trash cans with feet

451
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: on them because they didn't have much money. So that's

452
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: what a droid. The droids didn't have much money. No,

453
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: the directors didn't have any money paid. They were just

454
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: all they could afford was trash cans for their body

455
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: because they have times were tough. Probably, I mean the

456
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: probably both, a little bit of both is true. Um

457
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 1: So I was thinking, Uh, the first definition I came

458
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: up with, it would be more of a humanoid type troid.

459
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: But not all of them are humanoid at all. So

460
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: you know, Bridget, You've given me some nerd research to

461
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: do and I will happily do it. Yeah, report back,

462
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: We'll do an update to the episode and update. What

463
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: are droids? Where do they fall on the spectrum of

464
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: sexuality and gender? An we must know, we must know,

465
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: Um well, whatever they are in space pan sexuality on

466
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: top of including them, probably also includes other humanoids and species.

467
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: But since we haven't encountered these things in real world yet,

468
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: um yeah, we're working on it. It's a working definition.

469
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Dr Who's Jack Harkness is another sci fi example. Um,

470
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: if there's a limit to who and what he'll flirt

471
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: with to my recollection, he has not shown it. Is

472
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: he like a male A lot of a lot of

473
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: from Broad City? Yeah, he's just pretty much like anybody

474
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: anything that that's his, that's his personality and he has

475
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: embraced it. Um. It's more of the stuff we talked

476
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: about in fan fiction, because I will take any excuse

477
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: to talk about fan fiction. I am not ashamed UM

478
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: with the homoerotic tension between Han and Lando. Lando does

479
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: call Han baby at one point, and I thought nothing

480
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: of it. But I was reading these articles and people

481
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: were like, see, look at this um. Their debates about

482
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: whether the ship should be called Hando, Selarisian, hon Londo.

483
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: These names mashed up really nicely. They do, and we

484
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: all know that is the sign of whether or not

485
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: a relationship is coming. That's real compatibility. It does, um

486
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: And I did read a fan fiction again for this,

487
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: the authors of the very first hon Londo Han. It's

488
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: funny because you can say Hanndo and land Orlando. Lando

489
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: doesn't work because that's his name. Hondo would have to

490
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: be the only one that works, the only one well

491
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: Solo is in Thus both their last names. We're getting

492
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: into semantic. We really don't need to the first hand

493
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: to see. I can't decide how to say it. Han

494
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: Lando slash on the fan fiction site AO three What

495
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: shall we Do with a Drunken Soldier? Written before I

496
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: oh three was even a thing. The authors of that

497
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: were interviewed at polygon Um. Flirting does not necessarily meaning

498
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: characters queer. Yes, if you remember our episode on Queer

499
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: Cinema Queer media, Um, this is a common I guess

500
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: the problem trope in media queer baiting, where you know,

501
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: you get a little bit of flirtation between two characters

502
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: and you think, oh, is this character queer? Are they gay?

503
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: What's going on? And it's never really solved or dealt with,

504
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: and so it's just a little bit of a tease

505
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: that you might get something on screen and you don't. Yeah,

506
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: I think I read one of the articles I read

507
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: that was really critical of this. I was saying, it's

508
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: basically a way for marketers who are scared of losing

509
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: audience by having someone who is explicitly l g B

510
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: T q um. It's a way to like get more

511
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: money by basically saying, maybe you'll get this, so come

512
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: see this movie. Like it's a way to cover all

513
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: of your bases without frightening anyone away, which is so cowardly.

514
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: It really is. Also, if you're the kind of person

515
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: who would not watch a movie or a show because

516
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: there's a queer character. You don't deserve TV. Yeah, I

517
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: feel like you should. Yeah. And we shouldn't be making

518
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: it based on that. Yeah, we shouldn't be. That's not

519
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: a demographic that I think anyone should be going after. No, agreed. Yeah.

520
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: And this is a problem with a lot of these

521
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: fictional or at least the ones that I've been talking

522
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: about fictional portrayals of PAN characters, is that they're pretty

523
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:13,479
Speaker 1: vague and ambiguous in the movie. Um, it's not very conclusive. Um.

524
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: And another Star Wars thing, hearkening back to our the

525
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: whole episode we did on Star Wars, Laura Dern's character

526
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: Admiral Holdo. She was written as a queer character in

527
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: the officially sanctioned book that was tied into the Last

528
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: Ship I film, but that wasn't in the movie. Like

529
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: that was news to me because I haven't read the book,

530
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: so I've just seen the movie, and I didn't know

531
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: that from the book. Amlin is hold hold Its first

532
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: name quote a pair of pretty dark eyes. Then Amilin

533
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: thought about that for a moment. Are more than a pair?

534
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: If you're integrons? Are aquilish? Are tolls are even? That's

535
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: all right? Last said through laughter. It's just humanoid males.

536
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: For me, really, that feels so limiting. Thank goodness, it's

537
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: a big galaxy. Yeah, I wish I would have loved

538
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: to have seen that on the screen, that interaction. Jeffrey

539
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: bloom Over at Slate wrote, quote the undoubtedly sincere cousins

540
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: wished to include a quote more explicitly. LGBT character joins

541
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: a long and tiresome history of writers and directors profess

542
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: a desire for inclusion, but an inability or unwillingness to

543
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: confront the forces that prevented. Does kas Dan have the

544
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: power to do this? Probably not. Should he then be

545
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: so quick to declare a character part of a sexual

546
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: minority when his movie is too busy, are prophet driven

547
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: or etcetera? To have that character actually be part of

548
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: the sexual minority? He should not. Interesting. What do you

549
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: think about that? I think I agree, But I do

550
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: think that at least we are having these conversations moving

551
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: that way like progress is too slow, but with big

552
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: companies like Disney involved, I think that it's going to

553
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: take a lot of pushing and I'm excited that we

554
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: are pushing it that way like this is I believe

555
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: rogue one had the first lgbt Q person in it

556
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: at all that came out in so at least were

557
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: slowly moving in that direction. Um, I do wish that

558
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: we could get some more explicit characters that are like

559
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: explicitly you can there's no ambiguity. You leave knowing okay, yes,

560
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: And it doesn't have to be like like we talked

561
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: about in Star Wars episode where she's just like a

562
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: strong female character without trying to be a strong female character. Like.

563
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: I don't want that kind of I want representation of

564
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: like real human characters that are well written and this

565
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: is just a part of who they are. It's funny

566
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: that you put it that way because one of my

567
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: favorite movies and also favorite books is A Color Purple

568
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: by Alice Walker, and in the book, it's very clear

569
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: that the two main female characters in the book, um

570
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: Seely and sig Avery, are having a sexual, an explicit

571
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: sexual and romantic relationship. You read that book and it

572
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: is very very clear that's what's going down. In the movie,

573
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: you get the sense that they're having a sexual relationship.

574
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: And there's one scene where she'll has her hand like

575
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: on a table and Seely puts her hand on top

576
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: of it, and they sort of look at each other

577
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: and it fades. And in this scene they've been trying

578
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: on like she'll gets a dancer, like a nightclub dancer,

579
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: and they've been trying on her sexy clothes, and so

580
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: the audience is left to think, oh, that was a meaningful,

581
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: a meaningful gesture. And at the end of the movie

582
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: they're very close. But again it's like this way of

583
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: kind of getting to claim showing this on screen but

584
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: not really doing it. Another another movie that's very similar

585
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: and book that's very similar it is Fried Green Tomatoes,

586
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: where Um Ruth and Iji's red Good. In the book,

587
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: it's clearer that they're having a sexual relationship or that

588
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: it's a movie about women who have romantic feelings for

589
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: each other. In the movie, they sort of hint at

590
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: it again because the one character I G is masculine

591
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: and play poker and where's men's clothing and is having

592
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: this really close relationship with Ruth, who is very feminine

593
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. But it's it's sort of this

594
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: weird sort of getting to claim that you're doing something

595
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: for reflecting queer stories on screen while not actually reflecting

596
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: grew stories on screen because you know what, twelve year

597
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: old Bridget could not fantasize about Seely's hand on shil

598
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: G Avery's hand. That wasn't enough. I needed, like a

599
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: real story. You needed fan fix. Yeah. I'm sure there

600
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 1: is Seely sulg Avery color purple fan fiction out there somewhere.

601
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: Someone is writing that for sure. Oh, I have zero doubt,

602
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: zero doubt. Um. The creators of Deadpool similarly have claimed

603
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: the Tide characters pan sexual, and in the comic books, yeah,

604
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: he pretty much is, um, but in the movies it

605
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: comes across as a very easily dismissible joke, like he's

606
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: only ever seen with women in all of the jokes. Yeah,

607
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: it's just jokes. Mostly. Do you ever watch that show

608
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: Rick and Morty, I do, so sort of all that

609
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 1: same kind of level. Um. The creators of that show

610
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: said that Rick is pan sexual. So basically, UM, Rick's

611
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: ex girlfriend, Unity played by Christina Hendrix, can sort of

612
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: embody anybody on this entire planet where she lives and rules,

613
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: and so throughout the episode, her spirit or her essence

614
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: embodies men. Women. Um, you know, trees like she is everything,

615
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: she can be anything, and they have a explicitly sexual relationship.

616
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: Um we're in. Rick's sexual attraction just is fluid. It

617
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: goes from person like whoever, she whoever, her essence or spirit,

618
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: her energy is embodying that. You know, that's who he's into.

619
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: So at comic con Rick and Morty co creator Justin

620
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: Rowland announced that Rick was pan sexual, and it seems

621
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: like people thought he was joking, but he wasn't. And

622
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: you know, maybe Rick isn't the best representation of pan

623
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: sexual folks out there because he's not a very healthy person,

624
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, it's it's I still think it's cool

625
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: to see pan sexuality on screen, and especially in things

626
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: like Star Wars and you know, Rick and Morty, because

627
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: I think that the demographic of these shows are largely

628
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: young men. I'm sure young men out there probably identify

629
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: with these characters and if they can get the sense

630
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: that sexual fluidity is okay, and that it's okay if

631
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: you're sexually fluid, it's okay with people around you have

632
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: sexual flimity, it's okay. If your sexuality does not fit

633
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: into like a neat little box, that's all right. I

634
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: think the demographic of these sci fi shows and these

635
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: cartoons having pan sexual characters is especially important because I think,

636
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: and maybe this is a misconception, I think for women

637
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: it's more accepted to sort of explore your sexuality and

638
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 1: that you might you know, that's okay. Yeah, I think

639
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: for men it is very much not okay. And I

640
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: think that these shows, it might sound dumb, but part

641
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: of me wonders if they can be a little bit

642
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: of a nod to young men who are still sort

643
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: of finding themselves to say, yeah, if you don't quite

644
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: know what your sexual vibe is, that's okay. And to

645
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: back to your point about women exploring their sexuality more,

646
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: perhaps we do have some numbers for you, but first

647
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: we have one more quick break for a word from

648
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. It turns

649
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: out young folks overall these days are more likely to

650
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: identify as pan sexual. According to a study by J.

651
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: Walter of respondence between the ages of twelve to nineteen

652
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: reported uh they didn't care about people's sexual orientation, and

653
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: about the same number said gender doesn't define as as

654
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: much as it once did. That's great news. I actually

655
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: think that you see that in so many different ways

656
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: that make me think that we're creeping toward a society

657
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: with less gender hang ups. You know, the sort of

658
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: popularity of gender neutral clothing. You know, stores who no

659
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: longer had a quote men's section in a women's section

660
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: that's just closed and whoever wants it can have it. Um.

661
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: I think that young I said this in the show

662
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: all the time. You know, young folks, they are the ticket.

663
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: You know, we gotta we gotta, we gotta ride their

664
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: wave a little bit. And I think this is just

665
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 1: one of many ways in which they've got it figured

666
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: out more than their predecessors do or did or do

667
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: yeah both the same. The teen LGBTQ survey conducted by

668
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: the Human Rights Campaign in twenty seventeen found that the

669
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: number of young folks identifying as pan sexual is that

670
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: which is double what it was in two thousand and twelve.

671
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: The same survey found respondents identified as by young folks

672
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: that identify with pan sexual are queer, are also more

673
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: likely to be nonsence gender, and also more likely to

674
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: be sis gender women than sis gender men. In some studies,

675
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: five times more women identified as pan sexual than men.

676
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: All those celebrities I mentioned earlier, they were female and

677
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: the ones you mentioned, Yeah, they were female too, and

678
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: the fictional ones, a lot of them were men. Oh

679
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: isn't that interesting? Again, I think women I r L.

680
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, this is not I'm not saying

681
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: this is my opinion. I'm saying this is what I

682
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: have seen in society. I think it is more acceptable

683
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: for a woman two be with other genders and have

684
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: that be okay, and just have that be like like

685
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: even if they even if there's someone who is straight,

686
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: have that be a journey to themselves or whatever. I

687
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: do not feel that we give men that same leeway,

688
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: and thus it does not surprise me that less men

689
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: identify this way. Yeah. I hate to keep bring up shows,

690
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: but there's an episode of the show Insecure where one

691
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: character is dating a guy who later and they're and

692
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: they're having a great relationship, and the guy admits, oh,

693
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: I once slept with a man, and that's a complete

694
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: deal breaker for her. And you know, I think that, Again,

695
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: this is not my opinion, but I think that we

696
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: live in a society that gives men less space to

697
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: explore their sexualities than we do women. Yeah, that that

698
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: makes sense, and I kind of it reminds me of

699
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: how we were talking about in the fan fiction episode,

700
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: how we see so many movies with the bromance where

701
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: we just assume that those are those are straight dudes

702
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: and they can have this relationship that we might otherwise

703
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: read if a woman was in it as sexual, but

704
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: because it's two dudes, we just like desexualize it immediately. Um,

705
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: maybe part of it is that we don't give men

706
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: the same as society, not not me and bridge it.

707
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: We don't have any say no matter, we don't give

708
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: them the same room too to explore and to experiment,

709
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: or at least like not in the same kind of

710
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: open way I think about it. There are songs, you know,

711
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: I kissed a girl and I liked it. There's that

712
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: New Reader or song Girls, which was a song that

713
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: I found problematic for several reasons, But it is about

714
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: sexual exploration. There are there are not anthems for men

715
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 1: that are you know, I touched a dick and I

716
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: liked it. That's not summer jam we're hearing on the radio.

717
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: And so I think that it's much more perhaps normalized,

718
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: that young women are going to explore with young women

719
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: and that's just something that happens. And like, sure, there

720
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: is this weird lens of sort of sexual titillation and

721
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: male gaze and all of that, all about all of that,

722
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: But I don't see that with men. Yeah. Yeah, and

723
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: if if you do, I think it's kind of going

724
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: back to the Deadpool thing where it's very like jokey

725
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: kind of hidden homophobia tied up into it. Yeah, it's

726
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: very like making fun of Oh I went through this

727
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: phase and like like a frat boy jokey manner. It's

728
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: it's very specific, I find. Yeah, but back to um,

729
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: all of these young folks that have been participating in

730
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: these surveys, they face a lot of misconception. Dr kat

731
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: Van Kirk, a clinical sexologist and family marriage therapist, told

732
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: teen Vogue quote, pan sexual teens sometimes struggle to find

733
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: a community to identify with and get support from. Even

734
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: within some LGBTQ organizations, there's a misunderstanding of what pan

735
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: sexuality is. Therefore, these teens may experience and exclusion and isolation.

736
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: They're also at higher risk for being harassed regarding their orientation.

737
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: They may find it difficult to date when potential partners

738
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: don't understand are intimidated by who they are attracted to. So, yeah,

739
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: I hope that with more education and understanding and seeing

740
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: more and better portrayals of this and army idea, we

741
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: will move We will move this conversation forward and give

742
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: these young people um a safe space or yeah too,

743
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: just be themselves. I hope so too, because there's nothing

744
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 1: that sucks quite like being isolated from your own community,

745
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: from feeling sort of double marginalized. Absolutely. So that's been

746
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: our episode on pan sexuality. I hope that it was

747
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: useful and in the meantime it brings us to look

748
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: at us saying things at the same time, we're so worried.

749
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: We've got mine meld. We've got podcast co host mind meld,

750
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: the mind meld. I've heard it is long suspected, now

751
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: you know. Megan wrote, thank you so much for your

752
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: podcast on women in pain. I struggled with this myself.

753
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: I have always had we symptoms gastro intestinal distress, hives, extremes, swelling,

754
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: and reaction to insect bites, and had difficulty getting doctors

755
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: to take me seriously. When I was in college, my

756
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: symptoms started getting worse. My mother suspected that I might

757
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: have ciliac disease because she had been recently diagnosed. She

758
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: took me to see multiple gastron intrologists and I was

759
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: told to get doctor Google out of my head. I

760
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: was misdiagnosed for about a year, during which my symptoms persisted.

761
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: I was pretty much only able to keep down soup,

762
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: baby food, and smoothies. I even went to the MYO

763
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: clinic and was told can you eat bell peppers? Can

764
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: you eat lettuce? There's a salad so you can eat.

765
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: It wasn't until a year later when my primary care doc,

766
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: my first female doctor, noticed that my liver enzymes and

767
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: antibody levels were high that I received a diagnosis of

768
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: you guessed it Celiac disease. Five years later and my

769
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 1: symptoms are mostly under control as long as I don't

770
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: consume gluten. I culdit my mom for getting me through

771
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: that time. She helped me advocate for myself, even when

772
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: I felt discouraged by all the gas lighting by doctors.

773
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: She gave me the motivation to continue. If I could

774
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: give any advice to someone experiencing the same thing, I

775
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: would tell them to build a good support network and

776
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: document everything, every doctor, every test, every time you experience pain,

777
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: and bring that documentation with you it's harder for them

778
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: to ignore. Also, doctor's work for you, you are not

779
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: at their mercy. That idea helped me a lot. And yes,

780
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: this sounds like really good advice. And it's been overwhelming

781
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: to hear from so many women who have similar stories. Um,

782
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: it's really infuriating, but I am glad that we're having

783
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 1: this conversation, and please keep those stories coming. As angry

784
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: as it makes us to read them, it's good to know.

785
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: It's good to have this community and to know what

786
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: other women are going through and hopefully learn from that. Absolutely.

787
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: Mike wrote, I was listening to your comments and men

788
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: saying they support women because they have a sister, a daughter,

789
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: or whatever. This reminded me a lot of something Dan

790
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: Savage often points out the Conservatives are usually anti gay

791
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: until a close relative and friend comes out. He makes

792
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: that same point about being anti stem cell research until

793
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: your kid gets cancer, or anti abortion until your mistress

794
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: gets pregnant, etcetera. This got me wondering if there are

795
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: just differences in people's brain that that make them more

796
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: or less capable of imagining and caring about the situations

797
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: of unrelated or different people. It would explain a lot

798
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: about the kinds of political decisions people make and what

799
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: can they fall into. Like, that's actually really interesting. I

800
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: hadn't thought about that that. Um, some people until they

801
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: have a personal experience with it that they can see

802
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: maybe there's some kind of empathy gap where they can't

803
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: empathize with others put themselves in other shoes until they

804
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: are in that position. Yeah. I remember that being a

805
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: big kind of tweet going around at one point when

806
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: we were arguing about um, like health care, and somebody tweeted,

807
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: I can't convince I don't know how to convince someone

808
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: to care about someone else. Um. Yeah, I think I

809
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: personally think people are capable of convincing themselves of pretty

810
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: much anything if they want to, and justifying pretty much

811
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: any action if they want to. I agree. Um. When

812
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: I was working with young people, we would one of

813
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: the ways that we would teach kids who bullied or

814
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: kids who were mean to other kids, we would give

815
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: if you hit another kid? We would say what if

816
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: he hit you? And I'd be like, well, I wouldn't

817
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 1: like that, you know it took It's funny watching young

818
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: children process empathy of well, it's like when I hit him.

819
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny, but when I got hit,

820
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: I didn't like it. What does this mean? Yeah, maybe

821
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: some of these people need to have that lesson to them.

822
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe. UM. Thank you to both of them for

823
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: writing in. If you would like to write to as

824
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: you can, our email is mom stuff at has to

825
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 1: folks dot com. You can also find us on social media,

826
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 1: can't you bridget? Yeah, we're on social media. We're on

827
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: Twitter at Moms of Podcasts on Instagram, stuff I've Never

828
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: told you And as always, major major thanks to our

829
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: producer Dylan Fagan for listening to us for in the studio.

830
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: Well hopefully he got that part out, but yes, thanks

831
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: to Dylan and also Kathleen Quillian for editing