Speaker 1: Loka to Our Radio is a radiophonic novela, which.
Speaker 2: Is just a very extra way of saying a podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm fiosa fem.
Speaker 3: And I am Ma la munios.
Speaker 2: We're podcasting through another Trump election year. We've been podcasting
Speaker 2: through election years, a global pandemic, civic unrest, political controversies,
Speaker 2: the Me Too movement, the rise of TikTok, and we
Speaker 2: are still here.
Speaker 3: We're not done telling stories.
Speaker 1: We're still making podcasts. We're older, we're wiser, We're even
Speaker 1: podcasting through a new decade of our lives.
Speaker 2: Since twenty sixteen, we've been making locatrot Our Radio independently
Speaker 2: until we joined iHeartMedia's Michael Dura Network in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: From Our Lips to Your Ears, Fall in love with
Speaker 1: Locata Radio like you never have before.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Season nine, Love at First Listen, O.
Speaker 1: La La Loka Motives. Welcome to Season nine of Loka
Speaker 1: Thought Our Radio. I'm Viosa and I'm Mala. Loka Thought
Speaker 1: Our Radio is a podcast dedicated to archiving our present
Speaker 1: and shifting the culture forward. You're tuning in to Gapitlo
Speaker 1: doses two oh six.
Speaker 2: Last Time on Loka Thought Our Radio. We had our
Speaker 2: biosa Vise and my last BA Labra segment episode. Make
Speaker 2: sure to check it out and share with a friend.
Speaker 1: Today, we have another amazing guest joining the show. Our
Speaker 1: episode today will be highlighting astrology and how to use
Speaker 1: it as a tool for social change, and we also
Speaker 1: talk about power and some cults and it gets really good.
Speaker 3: In my opinion, it's a deep one. It's a good one.
Speaker 3: Do not stop listening.
Speaker 1: So about our guests, Lisa Nakazawa. She's an Oakland based writer, producer, podcaster,
Speaker 1: and astrologer. She is currently the host for Stars and
Speaker 1: Stars with Issa, a weekly podcast where she sits with
Speaker 1: the most talented artists and thinkers of our time. She
Speaker 1: is going to talk to us about everything astrology and
Speaker 1: like we said, how we can use it as a
Speaker 1: tool for social change. Okay, Lisa, can you introduce yourself
Speaker 1: to all of our listeners.
Speaker 4: Yes, Hi, listeners, I'm Asa Akazala and I'm a host
Speaker 4: of a new podcast called Stars and Stars of Lisa.
Speaker 4: It's an astrology pod, and I'm also a practicing astrologer,
Speaker 4: and i have an additional job where I'm the director
Speaker 4: of Community Engagement at BEAYVAC Media, which stands for Bay
Speaker 4: Area Video Coalition, and I've been at that organization for
Speaker 4: over four years now and we help resource independent filmmakers.
Speaker 2: Fabulous love it. So can you tell us about your
Speaker 2: journey into astrology? When were you first drawn to the stars.
Speaker 5: I feel like I need to pay y'all to help
Speaker 5: me like tighten up my.
Speaker 4: A journey to astrology because it's such a nonlinear journey,
Speaker 4: and when I hear myself in interviews, I'm like, girl'll
Speaker 4: tighten it up.
Speaker 5: But the reality is like I always.
Speaker 4: Had both an intrigue and repulsion dynam with spirituality growing up.
Speaker 5: I love ritualistic spaces.
Speaker 4: I remember growing up I would go to a church,
Speaker 4: like a Protestant church with my family, and I just
Speaker 4: loved having a ritualistic space, Like the actual environment was
Speaker 4: really beautiful and just the structure felt so sacred.
Speaker 5: But I was also politicized.
Speaker 4: Really young, which just means that I came into like
Speaker 4: a political understanding of the world really young, and so
Speaker 4: of course became really aware very young how religion has
Speaker 4: been used as an opia in a mechanism of control,
Speaker 4: and so it was really hard for me to untether
Speaker 4: spirituality from that history, and then later in life I
Speaker 4: started to around, Like in my twenties, I started to
Speaker 4: have girlfriends who are really into tarot in astrology, and
Speaker 4: I feel like homegirls are always this all chemical space
Speaker 4: of learning, especially when you graduate college and you start
Speaker 4: learning together, and a lot of them, you know, would
Speaker 4: talk about astrology here and there, and then I would
Speaker 4: kind of do my own research, which was a big
Speaker 4: theme in my life. And around twenty eighteen I started
Speaker 4: getting really interested and just learning about it, which I
Speaker 4: always encouraged people, right, like, digging into our curiosities is
Speaker 4: not a commitment to a belief. It's just learning and
Speaker 4: following where your curiosities are. And I find astrology. I
Speaker 4: don't know how you all feel, but astrology, once you
Speaker 4: scratch the surface, is really dense. And that really interested
Speaker 4: me because I'm a big nerd, and so I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is so cool. It's so complicated, and so I
Speaker 4: started getting really into all the different houses. And when
Speaker 4: I started to get into the houses and the more
Speaker 4: complex start things of astrology, that's when my interest got
Speaker 4: really pronounced. I think the horoscopic astrology kind of lost
Speaker 4: me because I'm not really big into prescriptions or labels,
Speaker 4: and so that actually was pretty off putting for me.
Speaker 4: But then thinking about the cosmos as this gateway for
Speaker 4: complexity was like, yes, I'm into that part, and then
Speaker 4: I just what. I really went in on research on
Speaker 4: my own and found some companions to help me, and
Speaker 4: then I eventually started my own practice in like twenty
Speaker 4: twenty with reading for clients, and then that really showed
Speaker 4: me that I have a deep love for it. And
Speaker 4: so it's again super hard to summarize, but yeah, I
Speaker 4: think it just started with being curious very so far.
Speaker 5: Yeah led me to a podcast very cool.
Speaker 1: I love that so much, and I think that was
Speaker 1: so concise and linears, So I think that you have
Speaker 1: it down and I love that you mentioned you initially
Speaker 1: mentioned there being a church, right and liking the ritual
Speaker 1: aspect of it, and then you know, being politicized, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us, a lot of our
Speaker 1: listeners can identify with that. And I also feel that
Speaker 1: that's why in my experience, queer people gravitate to astrology,
Speaker 1: because if we've grown up in the church or we
Speaker 1: grew up with some type of religious background, it's something
Speaker 1: that we can find comfort in but we know that
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily a place for us, and so we
Speaker 1: gravitate to astrology because there's this like community based in there,
Speaker 1: and there's this spirituality that we can tap into and
Speaker 1: connect to. And that's one of my beliefs as to why,
Speaker 1: like all the queers are into astrology, Right, that's kind
Speaker 1: of like the ongoing joke, But I think there's actually
Speaker 1: something really deep there. I think there's this like search
Speaker 1: for belonging, this search for understanding ourselves and the cosmos.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really profound. Yeah, And I think queerness also
Speaker 4: as like a political orientation, is always interested in like
Speaker 4: troubling power, and so I think I think like the
Speaker 4: way that I like to use astrology is in the
Speaker 4: same spirit of that, where it's like, how can astrology
Speaker 4: be I've been saying this phrase that I feel like
Speaker 4: might not land for people, but like, how can astrology
Speaker 4: help us unknow ourselves instead of being like another kind
Speaker 4: of regime of like you're so that, which is very
Speaker 4: fun and cute, but I think at times can also
Speaker 4: be very not queer. If we're being honest, like, then
Speaker 4: that can just make us better consumers and it can
Speaker 4: get us so much deeper into consumer capitalism because now
Speaker 4: astrology is so huge, like it arguably couldn't be bigger,
Speaker 4: which has you know, I think it has some positive effects,
Speaker 4: and then it also has the effects of Like I
Speaker 4: think any spiritual worker right now who has a public
Speaker 4: platform needs to be really on point because you can
Speaker 4: easily pure spirituality.
Speaker 5: Can be used against you right now.
Speaker 4: So I think it's also a tricky time to be
Speaker 4: a practitioner in public because of that.
Speaker 1: Don't go anywhere, We'll be right back.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think we want to get deeper into that
Speaker 2: as the interview continues, And just I love how you
Speaker 2: talk about the complexities and really digging deep into astrology
Speaker 2: as a practice and what it all means. I feel
Speaker 2: like a lot of people when they first hear about
Speaker 2: or think about astrology, they think it's like woo woo
Speaker 2: o wah, you know, we wah, like it could be right,
Speaker 2: but it's also there's a science to it and it
Speaker 2: can be a tool for social change. Can you talk
Speaker 2: to us a little bit about like finding the core
Speaker 2: of astrology and like it's many uses for humanity?
Speaker 5: Totally?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think two things come to mind.
Speaker 4: One is the Carl Sagan quote and he you know,
Speaker 4: Carl Sagan was not an astrologer, not a believer, but
Speaker 4: he has this quote I love invoking, which is the
Speaker 4: nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the
Speaker 4: iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies
Speaker 4: were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are
Speaker 4: made of star stuff. And I quote that because the
Speaker 4: cosmos are not just a metaphor, we are actually made
Speaker 4: of star stuff. And so I think that's always like
Speaker 4: a compelling place to start for people who are really skeptical,
Speaker 4: is that there's always an assumption that we're speaking at
Speaker 4: this like really abstract metaphysical level, and we are and
Speaker 4: we're not. And so I think at a base level
Speaker 4: there's something really deep about acknowledging that we are not
Speaker 4: just like, yeah, I guess a metaphor for the cosmos,
Speaker 4: but we are them. And so that lack of separation
Speaker 4: between us and the natural world, I think is itself
Speaker 4: quite political. So I just wanted to start there. And
Speaker 4: then also, yeah, I'm reading do either of you like
Speaker 4: Prentice hemepill or.
Speaker 1: No, not familiar, No tell us more.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're just an incredible like writer and author and organizer,
Speaker 4: and they have this kind of similar background to me
Speaker 4: in terms of I mean there, I don't want to
Speaker 4: put us in the same breath, but like they have
Speaker 4: the same background in the sense of being in organizing
Speaker 4: and activist spaces and also in healing spaces, and I
Speaker 4: think if you've been in both, sometimes you feel fractured
Speaker 4: because you can feel like there's like, on the one hand,
Speaker 4: political spaces can be really skeptical of healing spaces, like, no,
Speaker 4: we need to contend with reality, we need to show
Speaker 4: up here and now, and like they're really quick to
Speaker 4: talk about spiritual bypassing, which is a phrase about like
Speaker 4: don't use spirituality to cop out, like come, show up,
Speaker 4: fight back, be here. And then often healing spaces, their
Speaker 4: rhetoric is like or their retort rather is like if
Speaker 4: we don't heal ourselves, we can't heal the world. And
Speaker 4: I Prentice has a new book called What it Takes
Speaker 4: to Heal, How Transforming Ourselves can Change the World, which
Speaker 4: really kind of tackles the question you just pose, and
Speaker 4: I really recommend it because it goes in depth on
Speaker 4: this question. But I totally echo their premise, which is
Speaker 4: this idea that they've come to understand, and I have
Speaker 4: two in my lived experience that it's actually both social
Speaker 4: transformation and personal transformation happening simultaneously. That's the key to
Speaker 4: answer your question. That, to me is where the nexus lives. Like,
Speaker 4: I really don't feel comfortable saying that astrology on its
Speaker 4: own and as an isolated practice can really be like
Speaker 4: a revolutionary tool. I think that would be quite an exaggeration,
Speaker 4: and I think I've kind of made that claim accidentally before,
Speaker 4: But I really think I'm in a stage of life
Speaker 4: where I want to be more precise because I think
Speaker 4: it really helps all of us in our practice. So
Speaker 4: I think for me, it's like this, this this commitment
Speaker 4: to both, like if we don't. And there's this quote
Speaker 4: that I wrote that I thought was really concise, where
Speaker 4: Apprentice says, oh time, I have come to understand that
Speaker 4: social transformation, the push for more just systems and policies,
Speaker 4: and personal transformation, healing our own trauma and reshaping our
Speaker 4: relationships have to happen together, not one or the other,
Speaker 4: but both. We neglect ourselves our own growth rush in
Speaker 4: our rush to change what is external, and when we do,
Speaker 4: we fracture and succumb to what we are unwilling to face.
Speaker 5: And so if.
Speaker 4: Anything, astrology is that tool that helps us face what
Speaker 4: we are unwilling to And I think that astrology can
Speaker 4: often be not just an individual tool, but a collective
Speaker 4: one in the same way taro is, where it requires
Speaker 4: participation from like a reader and a quarrent or a
Speaker 4: group of homegirls or whatever it is, like, it can
Speaker 4: be this collective tool. So I really want to emphasize
Speaker 4: in this conversation that I think it requires both to
Speaker 4: really be considered social transformation.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate the way that you bring in the
Speaker 2: text and that nuance. I think that there's this pressure
Speaker 2: if you are an activist or activists minded or socially
Speaker 2: aware or in favor of more just systems, that there's
Speaker 2: almost this pressure that everything that we're touching is like
Speaker 2: in service of revolution or social justice, when it simply
Speaker 2: cannot be the case that every single thing that we
Speaker 2: do in touch is in service of social justice. So
Speaker 2: I appreciate that you bringing that nuance in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I really
Speaker 4: like how you said that, and I do think that
Speaker 4: you know something that.
Speaker 5: Anyone who knows me well knows.
Speaker 4: I'm really big into just being aware of what we're
Speaker 4: arguing because I think what you just said kind of
Speaker 4: releases some of that pressure. But I think if you're
Speaker 4: gonna say this is a revolutionary tool, you need to
Speaker 4: kind of elaborate on how that actually connects. And I
Speaker 4: maybe people say that because they feel the pressure you're naming,
Speaker 4: Like maybe people feel like they have to say that
Speaker 4: on the internet or say that in all their interviews
Speaker 4: because that's kind of the cachet of the day. And
Speaker 4: I think that what you just said is kind of
Speaker 4: reclaiming our right to have practices that don't ultimately always
Speaker 4: end up being these revolutionary tools. But I do think
Speaker 4: they have incredible potentiality. It's just I think we should
Speaker 4: not exaggerate what that is because then we get kind of, yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I think then it kind of like
Speaker 4: undermines it ultimately totally totally.
Speaker 2: And I think something else that we've seen is this
Speaker 2: may be just tangentially related, but there's a lot of
Speaker 2: like scammers who pretend to be astrologists and tarot card
Speaker 2: readers and offer services, and they're sliding into dms and
Speaker 2: pretending to be people they're not, and I think that
Speaker 2: they do that also because there is a power in
Speaker 2: what in the astrology and in the tarot, or else
Speaker 2: they wouldn't be pretending.
Speaker 3: To be those people, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4: I know I don't have all these ideas fleshed out,
Speaker 4: but it's interesting to think about, like the rebellion towards
Speaker 4: Enlightenment philosophy and also God and like this kind of
Speaker 4: orthodox religion, and then people looking for this kind of
Speaker 4: alternate form of spirituality. But then we are living in
Speaker 4: like a very isolated time. So people want to feel
Speaker 4: surrendered and connected to something bigger than themselves, and that
Speaker 4: is such a beautiful want, and yet it makes us
Speaker 4: also extremely vulnerable. So I think that's just like a
Speaker 4: paradox that I don't think I have to personally answer,
Speaker 4: but it makes me want to be very ethical in
Speaker 4: my practice because I can sense that vulnerability in myself.
Speaker 5: I'm not above that.
Speaker 4: Certainly, and I honored that part of me that wants
Speaker 4: to be part of something vaster and more connected than
Speaker 4: the narrow things that I've been told I should want
Speaker 4: to identify as. So I think there's something pure and
Speaker 4: beautiful at the center of that. But we have to
Speaker 4: be honest that it also makes us so vulnerable to
Speaker 4: scammers or another thing that I worry about is being
Speaker 4: really vulnerable to like I don't trust myself, ESO, what
Speaker 4: should I do?
Speaker 5: Should I move? Should I break up with him?
Speaker 3: Should I?
Speaker 4: And it's like, oh, don't give anyone that power. That's right,
Speaker 4: that's my personal opinion. That's a great point.
Speaker 1: How do you address that with clients that come to
Speaker 1: you for reading and you know, of course we have
Speaker 1: the specific question, and then it can be a question
Speaker 1: like exactly what you just said, like do I dump him?
Speaker 3: Do I move?
Speaker 1: Do I quit my job? And so then how do
Speaker 1: you navigate knowing you have this power but also are
Speaker 1: really trying to be ethical in the way that you
Speaker 1: use it.
Speaker 4: A lot of astrologers use pre materials or are really explicit,
Speaker 4: especially like experienced astrologers use their website as a space
Speaker 4: to kind of clarify and disclaim.
Speaker 5: How they approach the practice.
Speaker 4: And I really suggest that if you're looking for an
Speaker 4: astrologer not to rush that process. Really find a good fit,
Speaker 4: as if you were looking for a therapist or any
Speaker 4: other teacher. Find out how they approach it, what their
Speaker 4: actual like how system is like ask questions, you know,
Speaker 4: make sure it's a good fit. And it's always a
Speaker 4: great sign if an astrologer has testimonials, you know, like
Speaker 4: kind of do your due diligence. You don't have to
Speaker 4: be extra about it. But that's what I do, you know,
Speaker 4: I try and provide testimonials. It's touch points of trust.
Speaker 4: I try and disclaim that I'm not a predictive astrologer.
Speaker 4: If in a reading, even though I've set all that
Speaker 4: up top, those questions start to pop up.
Speaker 5: I'm not rude about it.
Speaker 4: I just try and gently, you know, kind of nudge
Speaker 4: them back to their inner wisdom, which I think is
Speaker 4: a you know, a talented practitioner. You almost leave a
Speaker 4: session not thinking about me. It's like you leave being like, oh,
Speaker 4: I kind of led myself to this decision, as opposed
Speaker 4: to thinking, oh, Lisa's got the answers right. So it
Speaker 4: happens all the time, and I try and just reframe
Speaker 4: the session or the question so that the wisdom is
Speaker 4: back within them, because I actually think when you do
Speaker 4: astrology right, the most powerful thing about our birth chart
Speaker 4: is that it's a map of something that already resides
Speaker 4: within us. So in a capitalistic society where the whole
Speaker 4: idea is to make us as vulnerable and inadequate as possible,
Speaker 4: so that we need to constantly optimize, astrology can be
Speaker 4: that antidote to optimization, which is there's already this inner
Speaker 4: reserve of wisdom within you and resourcefulness, and if you
Speaker 4: can tap into it, then you actually are powerful all along.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more of our interview with Lisa.
Speaker 3: I love that so much.
Speaker 1: And have you heard of like the red string theory?
Speaker 5: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: No. Is that what it's called, Mala where it's like
Speaker 1: we've we've talked about this before online, you and I
Speaker 1: let me let me refresh. Yeah, I think the red
Speaker 1: string theory is like there's someone that was put in
Speaker 1: your life and you meet them like at the point
Speaker 1: that you were supposed to, but like maybe they were
Speaker 1: in the background at some point in your life, right,
Speaker 1: And so mal and I have discussed that about our
Speaker 1: relationship and like how we we like grew up in
Speaker 1: the same area we grew up. We actually have mutual
Speaker 1: like gonna see that as like people that we know.
Speaker 1: And then we ran cross country in high school, not together,
Speaker 1: but we were like at these same places, and then
Speaker 1: it took years for us to finally meet in person,
Speaker 1: and so I feel like there's like that synergy there
Speaker 1: right between us. We were able to build like a
Speaker 1: business and a collaboration without knowing each other that well,
Speaker 1: but there was, like I think a lot of trust already.
Speaker 1: So we got this question the other day about a
Speaker 1: sinistry reading and if we have ever had one, and
Speaker 1: we haven't, and so I think we're like a little
Speaker 1: interested in that, and I know we're not doing that
Speaker 1: right now, but I just wanted to pose this question
Speaker 1: to you, like how can people maybe use a sinistry
Speaker 1: reading as a tool for like getting into collaborative partnerships
Speaker 1: or like getting into relationships, and like how do we
Speaker 1: really what do we do with that information? And what
Speaker 1: is and what is a sinister I.
Speaker 2: Had never I had never heard the word before, And
Speaker 2: a listener asked us if we have had a sinistry
Speaker 2: reading between the two of us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, first of all, that's such a beautiful story
Speaker 4: or very moving and I love the idea of like
Speaker 4: parallel lines that then meet. Yeah, so there's there's two
Speaker 4: sinistry readings that I provide one, so sinistry can be
Speaker 4: just simply defined as understanding how to birth charts interact,
Speaker 4: so like the points of harmony, the points of tension.
Speaker 4: But I want you to think of two distinct birth
Speaker 4: charts interacting, so that would be like a sinistry chart reading.
Speaker 4: So I would look at yours, I would look at yours,
Speaker 4: and then I would look at how those individual charts interact.
Speaker 5: Does that make sense? And like converse. A composite chart
Speaker 5: is really cool.
Speaker 4: To me because it's calculated by the midpoints of the
Speaker 4: two charts, and it's essentially a birth chart for this
Speaker 4: third thing, which is an embodied relationship. So it's a
Speaker 4: birth chart for the relationship, and it's calculated simply through
Speaker 4: the midpoints of your Sun Moon Venus Mars Mercury. And
Speaker 4: the reason I love composite charts is because they're blended
Speaker 4: energies and I've I've done a lot of couple readings,
Speaker 4: which I am very obsessed with and I love. And
Speaker 4: the reason I think composite charts are so poetic is
Speaker 4: because it takes us out of kind of a both
Speaker 4: a place of blame and a place of self overly
Speaker 4: self knowing where it's this third creative act of our
Speaker 4: combined energy, so we're less likely to be like, you're
Speaker 4: so like that, I'm so always like this, which I
Speaker 4: imagine couple's therapists deal with a lot, right, because we
Speaker 4: all do that.
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, you always you always do that. In our relationship.
Speaker 4: It could be a friendship, a collaboration, like you get
Speaker 4: stuck in the loop of like the narrative loops, I
Speaker 4: always do this, we type each other yeah and ourselves right, Oh,
Speaker 4: you're right, I'm always so angry or like, I'm always
Speaker 4: so submissive. And I've found actually that narrative can be
Speaker 4: both an opening and enclosure for me because I can
Speaker 4: I can become super limited by my story. I'm like,
Speaker 4: I'm always this, and I unfortunately am an always girl.
Speaker 4: Like when i'm heighten, I'm like, you're always And so
Speaker 4: I really just recommend composite charts too, because I think
Speaker 4: there's something so creative about thinking about the blended energy
Speaker 4: that is produced when two people come together. And I
Speaker 4: think both are dope, but I just think there's something
Speaker 4: so special and spiritual and sacred about thinking about the
Speaker 4: embodiment of something that happens when two people interact.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, I think we're convinced we need one. I
Speaker 3: think we need one. We need a composite sinistry reading.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would love to do it.
Speaker 4: And that's cool because you know, I think to get
Speaker 4: at one of the questions is like, I just think
Speaker 4: there's something so if you make it more playful, there's
Speaker 4: something that's really creative that starts to happen where you're
Speaker 4: meaning making together, which I think is why I like
Speaker 4: doing sinistry readings because it's two people and I get
Speaker 4: to see them weave together, and I get to see
Speaker 4: the compassion and kindness that usually comes up when one
Speaker 4: person is more silent and stuck, and I see how
Speaker 4: the other person is actually more likely to try and
Speaker 4: like fill in the gaps as then judge them. And
Speaker 4: so there's something about seeing holding again this point that's
Speaker 4: going to maybe be a through line this conversation as ritual,
Speaker 4: Like how cool is it that I get to just
Speaker 4: hold this, create this container in space for two people
Speaker 4: who already love each other to kind of like ask questions.
Speaker 4: And it's not really about making bold statements, but just
Speaker 4: being like, oh, like, if you think of this synistry
Speaker 4: as like a topography of these two people's psyches, you
Speaker 4: can just it's just like a cool poetic meaning making
Speaker 4: of them being like, oh, that is a point of tension,
Speaker 4: or like that is why we love each other. And
Speaker 4: I think there's something really cool about understanding how we
Speaker 4: have this shared energy. And then I don't know how
Speaker 4: you all feel, but I think one of the powerful
Speaker 4: things about therapy is that sometimes when we understand the
Speaker 4: person we love is different from us, it actually helps
Speaker 4: us be compassionate. Like, oh, because I love you, I
Speaker 4: sometimes project that we are the same, but we're not.
Speaker 4: So when I hear you tell me that. Like, one
Speaker 4: thing that comes up in synatry readings all the time
Speaker 4: is how all of us have such different relationships to time,
Speaker 4: Like some people view it as such a personal attack
Speaker 4: if their good friend comes late to things, and that
Speaker 4: can actually as simple as that is, that can create
Speaker 4: a lot of distrust and tension. And so time comes
Speaker 4: up a lot in my conversations, and often with like
Speaker 4: Neptunian charts, they're like, but why do you take it personally? Like,
Speaker 4: my sense of time is not about disrespecting or devaluing you.
Speaker 4: It's that like I follow, where I follow a spontaneity
Speaker 4: that feeds me and it's like important for me to
Speaker 4: feel safe to be able to follow that, and then
Speaker 4: the other person is like a fixed rizing sign is like,
Speaker 4: but that makes me feel like I can't rely on you,
Speaker 4: and that makes me feel unsafe, And so then you
Speaker 4: get to hear, oh, that makes her feel unsafe, you know,
Speaker 4: Like it kind of gets you to think outside of
Speaker 4: your assumptions and listen to how someone relates to time,
Speaker 4: and then you get to decide what you want to
Speaker 4: do with that. But I think it's it's an empathy
Speaker 4: exercise and not assume that even the person you've been
Speaker 4: married to for twenty years is a totally known entity.
Speaker 5: I'm always like I'm on.
Speaker 4: The ester parrel camp of like you're a mystery to yourself,
Speaker 4: and the people in your life are a mystery to
Speaker 4: you too, no matter how long.
Speaker 5: You've known each other.
Speaker 4: Like, if anything, maybe astrology can help people retain that
Speaker 4: mystery because when I think I've known you for you know,
Speaker 4: if I think that you're a known thing, then there's
Speaker 4: gonna be a lot of judgment and assumption. So sinistry
Speaker 4: readings are so cool for that because it's like, what
Speaker 4: if we just create an element of surprise and like
Speaker 4: that erotic comes back in or that curiosity comes back in,
Speaker 4: which I think we all need right to like refresh
Speaker 4: our our bonds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really like opening up a portal to like
Speaker 2: continue dating each other or getting to know each other
Speaker 2: again for the first time, which is very cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have to do it.
Speaker 3: We have to do that. You can vince us we
Speaker 3: need this.
Speaker 5: I'm down.
Speaker 3: I'm curious.
Speaker 2: What are some common misconceptions that you have come across
Speaker 2: or criticisms of a astrology in general or utilizing astrology
Speaker 2: for some type of social change or greater good? And
Speaker 2: then how do you address those criticisms?
Speaker 5: Oh, great question.
Speaker 4: I think one of the criticisms that's pretty common is
Speaker 4: confirmation bias, Like if you tell me that I am,
Speaker 4: then I think I am, and so then I become.
Speaker 5: And that's fair.
Speaker 4: Although again it's so it's so interesting and specific to
Speaker 4: astrology because it's so dense and there's so many levels
Speaker 4: to it. Like once you get into aspect astrology, which
Speaker 4: is how the planets communicate, and you start looking at transits,
Speaker 4: which is how the current sky interacts with your birth chart,
Speaker 4: Like there's so so many points in my journey where
Speaker 4: I wanted to not believe in it, you know, And
Speaker 4: I always resent when people think faith is the static
Speaker 4: fit thing, where it's like doubt can be part of
Speaker 4: your love, doubt can be part of your practice, but
Speaker 4: it's always just makes me laugh. Like I always say
Speaker 4: the cosmos are the biggest troll because you'll look at
Speaker 4: transits after the fact and be like, on that exact
Speaker 4: day when like Saturn conjunct Mercury, like everyone's computers didn't work,
Speaker 4: and like there was a certain kind of seriousness and
Speaker 4: sobriety to the communication that was going out in your
Speaker 4: life or in the world.
Speaker 5: So I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think for me, I'm very like understanding and willing
Speaker 4: to engage skepticism.
Speaker 5: But I think for me, I just find it bizarre when.
Speaker 4: People are really rigid, like when people say, like that
Speaker 4: is all ridiculous. I just don't relate to that kind
Speaker 4: of like insistent that the entire thing is just make believe,
Speaker 4: Like I don't really relate to that kind of level
Speaker 4: of I don't know, you know, when people say hate
Speaker 4: is a form of love, like that's how it comes
Speaker 4: across to me, Like why are you so adamant that
Speaker 4: astrology is bullshit, Like, I don't know, you seem really
Speaker 4: into it in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like lots of energy spent on the subject, like passion,
Speaker 2: lots of feelings and opinions exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like a hater is just like a big fan
Speaker 3: kind of a thing.
Speaker 5: You got it, not me.
Speaker 4: My home girl also always makes a joke that's so
Speaker 4: funny for New Yorker's but she's like, y'all believe in
Speaker 4: the Knicks.
Speaker 3: So anything is possible.
Speaker 5: So yeah, exactly, anything's possible.
Speaker 4: Love that I don't I think like a controversial, interesting
Speaker 4: one too that I was thinking about. That's maybe you're like,
Speaker 4: this is totally on a tangent, But I think that
Speaker 4: astrology for me feels more neutral than I once thought,
Speaker 4: Like I wanted to offer some things that I don't
Speaker 4: think people know, which is like Nancy Reagan was really
Speaker 4: into astrology and used it a lot to make pretty
Speaker 4: significant decisions in the White House. And so there has
Speaker 4: been in like a gnarly history of astrology in right
Speaker 4: wing politics and even in the Roman Empire, like a
Speaker 4: lot of astronomers were used as kind of reinforcers or
Speaker 4: like inscribers of fate for the powers that be. So
Speaker 4: I think in terms of the second part of that
Speaker 4: question is I would hesitate to say that astrology is
Speaker 4: inherently anything because it has been used as like you know,
Speaker 4: and I think you all illuminated why because it makes
Speaker 4: people feel powerful. So of course people in power have
Speaker 4: you know, used astrologers to kind of cement their power
Speaker 4: or maybe that much power makes people feel fraudulent and
Speaker 4: so they need to feel like it's inscribed by the
Speaker 4: divine Like I don't know, I haven't been in those positions,
Speaker 4: but it's an interesting correlation. Yeah, and so I would
Speaker 4: just mythbust that astrology is inherently leftist or inherently anything interesting.
Speaker 5: I think that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me we both went to Catholic schools,
Speaker 2: and you know, there's this piece of like Catholic dogma
Speaker 2: that the Catholic Church is basically the center of the
Speaker 2: earth and therefore is the center of the universe and
Speaker 2: is the one true religion. And I you know, this
Speaker 2: is just coming up in talking about the Roman Empire,
Speaker 2: and I mean, you know, the the Vatican and all
Speaker 2: that stuff and literally situating the Church in the center
Speaker 2: of the universe. And I'm sure that there were astrologers
Speaker 2: back in the day that were there, you know, contributing
Speaker 2: and coming up with this sort of ideology, and it
Speaker 2: is something that's taught like in Catholic schools and in
Speaker 2: Catholic teachings.
Speaker 4: I did not know that, but it's making me think
Speaker 4: of what is that new documentary. Maybe it's not new
Speaker 4: about the TikTok church.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, it's like a dance called slash Church.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 4: It made me spiral for thirty minutes because it just
Speaker 4: made me want to have nothing to do with spirituality
Speaker 4: because again, it brought up my old fears that I
Speaker 4: think are wise around. When people are vulnerable, this kind
Speaker 4: of cult of something bigger than us takes over and suddenly,
Speaker 4: if you're in the wrong hands, you can be you know,
Speaker 4: devoting your entire financial life and like your entire psychological
Speaker 4: truth to dogma and propaganda. And so there was thirty
Speaker 4: minutes where I was taking an old shower and I
Speaker 4: was like, oh, but for anyone, I forget the name
Speaker 4: of the documentary, but essentially it's these young people get
Speaker 4: exploited by this perch leader in LA and he well,
Speaker 4: I don't want to give it away, but it's you know,
Speaker 4: it's a very sinister ending where it's really actually quite
Speaker 4: hard to hold these people accountable legally.
Speaker 5: So I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because if you think about there's like this
Speaker 1: kind of cultural like cross cultural joke, right of like
Speaker 1: oh my THEO THEA spends like all their money on
Speaker 1: like the when it und spiritual number, right, and it's
Speaker 1: always like the quote spiritual stuff that becomes the joke.
Speaker 1: But if we look at like the way we're indoctrinated
Speaker 1: in like Western religions, like we don't give it that
Speaker 1: same type of joke power, right, but it really is
Speaker 1: the same thing, and there's a lot of power. There's
Speaker 1: like not to offend anybody, but there is some like
Speaker 1: cult like behavior. I'm not saying it's a cult es,
Speaker 1: but there's a cult like behavior. And I remember, for
Speaker 1: me one of my first times feeling that when I
Speaker 1: was in Catholic school, I was in high school, we
Speaker 1: would have church like weekly church, like in our auditorium
Speaker 1: in our gym, and they would bring a priest. My
Speaker 1: school would bring a priest to give a mass. And
Speaker 1: I remember just sitting there and watching everybody recite the
Speaker 1: prayer and then grow up and get the Eucharist. And
Speaker 1: it was the very first time that I felt like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is cul tea. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: was only like sixteen seventeen maybe. And again I'm not
Speaker 1: saying the Catholic Church is cult, but I am saying
Speaker 1: that there are some cult like tendencies. Right, we go
Speaker 1: and we eat like the eucharists the body and blood
Speaker 1: of right and so so yeah, So I just think
Speaker 1: there's this this need or there's this want to like
Speaker 1: ascribe spirituality like any type of spirituality that's like non Christian, right,
Speaker 1: this type of like culty vibes or this like scammer,
Speaker 1: which is true, like there can be, but like also
Speaker 1: that's the same for like traditional Western religions. And there's
Speaker 1: like a blind a blind spot that we have that
Speaker 1: we'd like choose to have. It's like this cognitive dissonance
Speaker 1: that we have for like organized Western traditional religions.
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's super gendered. Like people think of
Speaker 4: astrology as like a fem they like encoda as like
Speaker 4: a feminine practice, and so it gets like severely stigmatized.
Speaker 4: And I just don't think that that's particularly true right now,
Speaker 4: But I do think throughout history, I mean, there's so many,
Speaker 4: you know, examples of that, and I mean still to
Speaker 4: this day, it's like such an easy target. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 4: I think that's why for so many of us it
Speaker 4: took so long to like be public with it, because
Speaker 4: you're so aware of the scrutiny or of how easy
Speaker 4: it is to call it silly, you know. But again,
Speaker 4: it's like something that's gendered as a like a female
Speaker 4: knowledge system.
Speaker 1: And how how did it feel when you went like,
Speaker 1: quote public, like I'm an astrologer? Scary?
Speaker 5: That was scary, scary.
Speaker 4: I mean, I definitely, like everything in my life, did
Speaker 4: it in stages. But yeah, there was a whole period
Speaker 4: where I would disclaim. I don't know if you ever
Speaker 4: go through periods like that, but I always go through
Speaker 4: these periods of disclaiming where I'm like, I mean, but
Speaker 4: I already know it's and I don't do that anymore.
Speaker 4: And it feels really great, you know, to stand in that.
Speaker 4: But it took me a while, and I think it
Speaker 4: was partially because I was wary for so many years
Speaker 4: that it felt like am I betraying my own into
Speaker 4: tuition or my own kind of scholarship or my commitment
Speaker 4: to my values, and I think it's actually a deepening
Speaker 4: of those values. But yeah, it's been a journey and
Speaker 4: I think it's been really honestly, the coolest consequence of
Speaker 4: it is that it's given permission to a lot of
Speaker 4: people in my life who are similar to me, who
Speaker 4: feel like it's embarrassing to be spiritual or it's embarrassing
Speaker 4: to have any kind of faith. And so that was
Speaker 4: a you know, when you're in your head, you can't
Speaker 4: really predict those positive outcomes because you're so fixated on
Speaker 4: the the fear based ones. Yeah, so I'm curious, I
Speaker 4: have a related I have a question for you guys.
Speaker 5: At some point, go for it.
Speaker 3: Go for it.
Speaker 4: No, just it was to the topic we were just having,
Speaker 4: Like I'm kind of curious what you both think of
Speaker 4: Walter Mercalo, because I think it's interesting too to think
Speaker 4: of this fine line that I'm undecided about where it's like,
Speaker 4: on the one hand, horoscope astrology can be really can
Speaker 4: feel really exploitative for folks who are always in need
Speaker 4: of like a good word or some hope. But there's
Speaker 4: also something that I think was kind of like I
Speaker 4: hate to say the word pure, but like well intentioned
Speaker 4: about Walter and like wanting to actually offer like a
Speaker 4: glimmer of redemption to people.
Speaker 5: So I'm kind of curious how.
Speaker 4: You both think of like horoscope astrology and if there's
Speaker 4: like something beautiful and simple about it, or if it's
Speaker 4: kind of like potentially a pyramid scheme.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: I have not thought of Walter Mercado in these ways,
Speaker 2: but I would just jumping off of the like Catholicism
Speaker 2: as a cult. I'll say it revelation, I'll say it exactly.
Speaker 2: I'll say it. I've had this conversation with my mom,
Speaker 2: who is a Catholic school teacher, you know, and like
Speaker 2: I went to Catholic school for like nine years, and
Speaker 2: I remember there was a conversation about a family that
Speaker 2: went left their public school because they were teaching about
Speaker 2: like gender identity and pronoun and discussions about like CIS
Speaker 2: and trans people, and they didn't like that in their
Speaker 2: public school, so they wanted to go to a Catholic school.
Speaker 2: And my thing is like at our Catholic school, every year,
Speaker 2: the students we recreate the Stations of the Cross, which
Speaker 2: is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and they.
Speaker 5: Cast us so wild.
Speaker 2: They cast children every year to play Ponch's Pilot and
Speaker 2: the weeping women and Jesus, and then they crucify the
Speaker 2: child Christ. Not literally, but they crucify him in front
Speaker 2: of the entire student body and congregation, and it's like
Speaker 2: an honor, like, oh, my child is Jesus and he's
Speaker 2: going to be crucified this year at the station of across.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, you know what, it's kind of pick
Speaker 2: your poison, like you're switching out one thing that you
Speaker 2: think is bad for something.
Speaker 3: Else that may be worse. I don't know, you know.
Speaker 3: And so with someone like a Walter.
Speaker 2: Mercado, I agree, Like, especially seeing the documentary about his life,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't think that he was enriched and
Speaker 2: made super powerful as a result of his work. I
Speaker 2: think that he became beloved. I think that a lot
Speaker 2: of people felt comfort watching him and talking to him,
Speaker 2: you know. And so I don't know, I think it's
Speaker 2: sort of he seems to me very benign.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there were people in his team that
Speaker 1: saw a way that they could exploit his image, which
Speaker 1: is exactly what happened, because you know, to that the
Speaker 1: point the documentary gos referring to, we don't see what
Speaker 1: the Mergalo living in luxury at the end of his life.
Speaker 1: We don't see any of these riches that you may
Speaker 1: have imagined for him. And so I think, going back
Speaker 1: to what we're talking about the power, I think, like
Speaker 1: I said, there were people in his team that saw
Speaker 1: we can exploit his name, his image, his likeness because
Speaker 1: people will believe him. People did right. And I also
Speaker 1: I think beyond the horoscope, I think like there was
Speaker 1: this very flamboyant, beautiful man on TV touching these Latino lives,
Speaker 1: families that are notoriously conservative considering the time, and that
Speaker 1: they were like listening to him, And I think that
Speaker 1: alone represents so much and to me, like we'll always
Speaker 1: be beautiful. And that's that's what I think of what
Speaker 1: the Mercalo when I think of his like lasting, his
Speaker 1: enduring legacy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's like the Latino like David Bowie meets like princes. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the adornment, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3: The show. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, he's not not that different than a Juan Gabrielle,
Speaker 1: you know, where he was so beloved and reached this
Speaker 1: like icon status. Very different of course in their craft,
Speaker 1: but in the way that these like you know, assumed
Speaker 1: queer men could would come into the LATINX culture homes
Speaker 1: and be so beloved, I think is something like which
Speaker 1: I think is why they're still talked about and studied now,
Speaker 1: Like there's the phenomenon behind them is like really interesting
Speaker 1: to a lot of people.
Speaker 4: And a quick shout out to my executive producer Maria Garcia,
Speaker 4: who just launched My Devil, which is a podcast on
Speaker 4: Huanga Yeah and explores this very kind of thread or
Speaker 4: inquiry of queerness.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yes, but thank you for asking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had not necessarily thought too deeply about him,
Speaker 2: and so for those who are not as familiar watch
Speaker 2: the documentary.
Speaker 3: It's very enlightening.
Speaker 4: And I think I brought it up because there's so
Speaker 4: much there's so much conversation in the last like five
Speaker 4: to ten years around Manifestation, and so I think you
Speaker 4: just when you were all speaking, I was thinking about
Speaker 4: how he basically died in poverty and was exploited financially,
Speaker 4: and so I think I'm just very, yeah, a little
Speaker 4: bit wary about how we talk about Manifestation because I
Speaker 4: think it I think for me, it stops being I
Speaker 4: don't know, not innocent or benign. But it starts to
Speaker 4: become troubling when you're promising people who don't have the
Speaker 4: actual like resources, and you're kind of like saying, like
Speaker 4: what you can be whatever you want to be. And
Speaker 4: I think that's something that can scare me a little
Speaker 4: bit about Catholicism and spiritual practice of like what are
Speaker 4: we promising?
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, because I feel like everyone online
Speaker 1: has been talking about manifestation, and I don't think that
Speaker 1: everyone knows what they're talking about that are talking about it,
Speaker 1: you know, and I don't claim to know that much either,
Speaker 1: but I think I have like studied from people that do, and.
Speaker 5: So would you think, yeah, I'm curious what you all
Speaker 5: think of it?
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's like scam like behavior, like you
Speaker 1: can't manifest your way out of systemic racism. I think
Speaker 1: that's where my where I get like really upset, where
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, like sure, I can try to visualize
Speaker 1: a better life for myself, but like you said, if
Speaker 1: I'm not given the resources to get out of maybe
Speaker 1: this systemic poverty or whatever, you know, immigration system, so
Speaker 1: many different things, like I can't actually manifest a green
Speaker 1: card for myself. Sorry, I can't.
Speaker 5: These are an amazing example.
Speaker 1: You know, And so it puts I think what I
Speaker 1: see right now with this like New Age spirituality is
Speaker 1: like it's it continues to put the onus on the
Speaker 1: individual again, manifest your way into a better life. And
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, we can like create a better mindset
Speaker 1: for ourselves, but we can't like manifest ourselves out of poverty.
Speaker 1: And so those are my thoughts on it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's I mean, that's a great Instagram reel right there.
Speaker 5: I yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4: And it's interesting when I really think of like manifestation
Speaker 4: dovetailing with optimization, and I saw those kind of converge
Speaker 4: in the last five years where it's all about how
Speaker 4: to be the optimal you. And I really think the
Speaker 4: highest ranking podcast youtubes right now are about morning routine
Speaker 4: and like kind of like chat bro chats on like
Speaker 4: how we can be our best selves. And I think
Speaker 4: there's there's like a gendered version that's like that's manifestation
Speaker 4: for like Cis Bros. And then I think it's just
Speaker 4: everything capitalism is customized for you. But all of it's
Speaker 4: the same premise right around the onus is on you,
Speaker 4: and you got to bootstrap your way to the ideal state,
Speaker 4: because once you're in the ideal form, then you can
Speaker 4: get the person you want, the job you want, the
Speaker 4: life you want. Right. So it's like the way that
Speaker 4: we're being sold that I think is like the algorithm
Speaker 4: kind of organizes. But I think ultimately it's about the
Speaker 4: same lie, which has been at the center of the
Speaker 4: United States for as long as it's been founded. But
Speaker 4: I think manifestation can work for folks if it's about,
Speaker 4: like you said, smaller things that are like why do
Speaker 4: I have so much anxiety? Or I think there's like
Speaker 4: profound kind of mental shifts or like habit forming creations
Speaker 4: that I think can be really really deep for people.
Speaker 4: But I think we just need to be careful about
Speaker 4: like what we think we're Yeah, what, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Sometimes the way people talk about it, I worry people
Speaker 4: think you can just like rub a crystal and like
Speaker 4: get a new life or something.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I'm like what.
Speaker 2: I feel like the topic manifesting does so well and
Speaker 2: the whole like, oh, delulu is the sululu?
Speaker 3: Like what's that?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: Like being delusional is the solution? So on TikTok delusion
Speaker 2: is delulu, Okay, so sometimes it's like Delulu is the sululu,
Speaker 2: and so you should manifest like your life. And I
Speaker 2: think that these ideas do so well on TikTok because well,
Speaker 2: if you just manifest and you post three times a day,
Speaker 2: then you're gonna go viral and you're gonna make money
Speaker 2: on the creator fund and you can post a TikTok
Speaker 2: shop and then you can quit your job.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: You know, Like, I think the concepts.
Speaker 2: Work really well on the app because it encourages just
Speaker 2: more use of the app for this this manifested reality
Speaker 2: that you want for yourself.
Speaker 5: Wait, break down. That was really that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, y'all are killing it. How do y'all like, how
Speaker 4: do you tackle that? Because you've I was asking your
Speaker 4: producer like how long. Look, I THOUGHTA has been around.
Speaker 4: I was like impressed, how long you've been doing this?
Speaker 4: And I'm a first time creator in the podcast space.
Speaker 4: This is I'm only on month six, and so I'm curious,
Speaker 4: like how you all navigate that in a very tangible
Speaker 4: way because the algorithm is so fixed in terms of
Speaker 4: what works. But then sometimes that algorithm is at odds
Speaker 4: with your ethics and so like, but you're still people
Speaker 4: who need an audience and believe in what you're doing
Speaker 4: and really want to connect with people, So like, how
Speaker 4: do you kind of walk that thin line.
Speaker 1: We take these like viral things and we break them
Speaker 1: down and we give them like a deeper analysis. Like
Speaker 1: we talked about de Lulu and we were like, Okay,
Speaker 1: remember when women were called hysterical and delusional? Like why
Speaker 1: is this a cute trendy word right now? And like
Speaker 1: let's talk about like actually the history of that. We
Speaker 1: we did that for like Chradwives. We had an episode
Speaker 1: on that like two years ago. And so it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily avoiding the trends, but it's giving them our own
Speaker 1: spin of like, Okay, this is trendy right now, but okay,
Speaker 1: we're all we're operating under a system of capitalism, right,
Speaker 1: and so these things are being fed to us on purpose. Okay,
Speaker 1: how do we make a meeting out of them? And
Speaker 1: how do we give it a deeper analysis that we
Speaker 1: think our listeners would enjoy? Because I think at its core,
Speaker 1: that's the storytelling we've been doing since twenty sixteen. We've
Speaker 1: been taking these things that are maybe become mainstream or
Speaker 1: become or are popular in our culture and LATINX communities,
Speaker 1: and then we like spin it on its head and
Speaker 1: are like, okay, think about it this way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And we had jobs for the first six seven seasons,
Speaker 2: full time jobs, like full time nine to five, you know,
Speaker 2: the podcast. We were paying for things out of pocket
Speaker 2: and working and living at home. We have had very
Speaker 2: very few viral moments. We didn't like put out a
Speaker 2: viral clip and then quit our jobs and now we're
Speaker 2: living high on the hog. It was years of doing
Speaker 2: both simultaneously, you know, and we could kind of like
Speaker 2: dream big and like look ahead. But ultimately, I don't know,
Speaker 2: there was really no man We weren't manifesting anything.
Speaker 3: Oh, so like can we remember like manifesting.
Speaker 5: I was so helpful to hear. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also when I hear manifests, like, Okay, I'm all for
Speaker 1: the manifesting, like if it's in realistic ways, but I
Speaker 1: also can't help but think.
Speaker 3: Of like manifest destiny, and I'm like, yes.
Speaker 1: You know, let's let's remember that, you know, because I
Speaker 1: think there's a connection there.
Speaker 3: There's got to be, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes that's the most powerful, simple way to question things.
Speaker 4: It's like where the etymology? Where does this come from?
Speaker 4: But I I really think it's so generous to tell
Speaker 4: stories like that because it gets so demystified, and like,
Speaker 4: when I look at your work, it's so impressive, and
Speaker 4: I think it's really cool to see what you can
Speaker 4: build sustainably over time through being consistent. But you also
Speaker 4: have to tell people what it takes, because I think
Speaker 4: that when people are not told what it takes, they
Speaker 4: really internalize being a failure. And I see it happen
Speaker 4: all the time, where it's like I'm not as good
Speaker 4: or I'm not as charming, or I'm not as ex
Speaker 4: as this person. And they don't have to be a celebrity.
Speaker 4: They can be your friend that you pedestal. And that's
Speaker 4: what I really worry is the cost of the bootstrap,
Speaker 4: you know, mentality among a lot of other social costs,
Speaker 4: but one of them is that we all think we're
Speaker 4: like inadequate because the mechanisms of success.
Speaker 5: Are obscured on purpose. So it's like, oh, how did
Speaker 5: the two.
Speaker 4: Of them They must just like you said, they must
Speaker 4: be riding high and then meanwhile, the two of you
Speaker 4: are like nine to.
Speaker 5: Five in it. Yeah, you know, that must be. That's hard,
Speaker 5: that's a grind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was not anymore. But for the majority of
Speaker 1: the show it was. It was we were working nine
Speaker 1: to fives and doing what we could, and you know it, it.
Speaker 3: Did get us here.
Speaker 1: It was the hard work. But we didn't just like
Speaker 1: manifest it, you know. I mean in ways we did,
Speaker 1: in ways we did because we talked about it, we
Speaker 1: dreamt of it, we dreamed about it, but you know,
Speaker 1: we didn't just like write it down and just like
Speaker 1: it happened the next day.
Speaker 3: Right right, right, right right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And before TikTok was invented, before reels, you know,
Speaker 2: like viral video and such, it just wasn't part of the.
Speaker 1: It wasn't part of our world.
Speaker 3: It wasn't part of the building.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So on this tip and continue with this conversation
Speaker 2: and maybe like to help us kind of wrap up. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: what are some challenges if you could even make some
Speaker 2: predictions for us between astrology, social media, and young people
Speaker 2: and our next generation of users and as social media
Speaker 2: users and content creators and consumers and astrologers.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that is a really nice segue.
Speaker 4: I mean I think as an almost thirty eight year
Speaker 4: old I kind of missed the train that I have
Speaker 4: a lot of empathy for younger people who are they
Speaker 4: call like digital natives, where they grew up through social media,
Speaker 4: and so I'll never be able to understand what it's
Speaker 4: like to feel like social media is a very meaningful
Speaker 4: place of community building, and it's something I try and
Speaker 4: remember when I get all like anti mode and I'm like,
Speaker 4: go outside, totally such grass.
Speaker 5: How's your offline life, They're like.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're so old. It's way more fluid than that.
Speaker 5: I'm like, is it?
Speaker 4: But I do worry about publicness and like exploding. And
Speaker 4: I was actually thinking when you were talking about how
Speaker 4: nice it is in a way to grow slowly and
Speaker 4: have a really engaged following as opposed to becoming famous overnight.
Speaker 4: And you know, for maybe really great reasons, you're either
Speaker 4: like really talented at providing entertaining information, which there's so
Speaker 4: many incredible gen z astrologers that I'm like, Wow, you
Speaker 4: guys really know your stuff. You're so much better at
Speaker 4: me that making knowledge like palatable and entertaining. But I
Speaker 4: think it's really you know, astrology is a slow learning process,
Speaker 4: and I I've met like MultiGen astrologers who've been practicing
Speaker 4: for thirty years and they see these young people getting
Speaker 4: famous on TikTok overnight, and like they're not shaming them,
Speaker 4: but they're worried about their mental health because you when
Speaker 4: you put yourself and audition yourself for the role of expert,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of pressure that comes with that, right,
Speaker 4: Like what if I say the wrong thing, or what
Speaker 4: if I predict something and someone takes my prediction really
Speaker 4: seriously and then you know, there's all these questions. So
Speaker 4: I think the cautionary tale for me is just like
Speaker 4: maybe making it more socially acceptable to refute the expertise
Speaker 4: thing and like just own what you know and then
Speaker 4: you can be really playful about what you don't. But
Speaker 4: I think all of us, no matter age or social
Speaker 4: media status, should, like, I don't know, welcome that more
Speaker 4: into our practice of saying I don't know, or saying
Speaker 4: this is what I know right now, or this is
Speaker 4: what I know from what I've researched, but just being
Speaker 4: really specific about you know, your context. And I think
Speaker 4: especially for young women, not feeling so much like ownership
Speaker 4: or pressure to take on the world, like it's also
Speaker 4: okay to log off. It's okay to stop things you started,
Speaker 4: it's okay to change your mind, and so yeah, I
Speaker 4: just I just worry about the mental health stuff, and
Speaker 4: I worry about feeling pressure to always create content. I
Speaker 4: don't know about you all, but I get fatigued by
Speaker 4: making like one thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, it's very tiring.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so I'm like wow, and like, you know,
Speaker 4: some people find so much energy from it, so it's
Speaker 4: no shade, But I just think that there must be
Speaker 4: something truly exhausting about feeling like you're constantly performing for
Speaker 4: an audience and your money's.
Speaker 5: Tied up to it.
Speaker 4: Yep, that's complicated, right, because if you want to get
Speaker 4: the bag, then you got to be on. And so
Speaker 4: I just want young people to be able to be
Speaker 4: young people too and fuck up, yeah, and not owe
Speaker 4: anyone anything. So I think I specifically talk about young
Speaker 4: people a lot because that's honestly, who are some of
Speaker 4: the most talented astrologers of the day. So shout out
Speaker 4: to them. Keep being amazing, but also protect yourself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and stay in school please.
Speaker 2: I mean, I see, at least in the like Latino community,
Speaker 2: with the Latino influencers, I have seen a number who
Speaker 2: have gone super viral, and like there's been a lot
Speaker 2: of conversation about like why the number that are like
Speaker 2: didn't finish high school and like are not making plans
Speaker 2: to do so and or maybe haven't had like a
Speaker 2: real job, you know, and so like even if I
Speaker 2: have like little cousins who I want to be a singer.
Speaker 2: I want to be an artist. That's fabulous. And the
Speaker 2: most well rounded artists are always studying and stay in
Speaker 2: school and keep a job, you know, like do it,
Speaker 2: but take care of yourself in these other ways. You know.
Speaker 4: I love that, and I think again that's why I'm
Speaker 4: really yeah, just it was it was cool that you
Speaker 4: told us the whole backstory of your podcast, because I
Speaker 4: think one of the reasons that they say that is
Speaker 4: because they're seeing the incentives like I can make more money,
Speaker 4: I can do all this stuff by just being on TikTok.
Speaker 5: And it's like that's not the full truth.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we need to start telling the full truth.
Speaker 5: It's like all the it's like the way the.
Speaker 4: Violent ways that we can like accidentally, you know, encourage
Speaker 4: people to have disordered eating by being like I didn't
Speaker 4: get a surgery I drink water, like so many like
Speaker 4: famous celebrities have been.
Speaker 5: Like, I just drink a lot of water and you're like, no, what.
Speaker 3: Was in the water exactly?
Speaker 5: That water's crazy.
Speaker 4: But I feel like the more we can be transparent,
Speaker 4: the more young people would make more complicated choices. But
Speaker 4: it's like if they're just like, oh, she's making all
Speaker 4: this money, of course they're not going to want to
Speaker 4: go to school.
Speaker 3: It all goes back to capitalism.
Speaker 2: Lisa, you have just been a revelation. You have given
Speaker 2: us so much to think about.
Speaker 3: I've learned a.
Speaker 1: Lot same same. Thank you so much. This was so incredible,
Speaker 1: and this is the first time we actually have like
Speaker 1: a full like astrology dedicated episodes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, thank you, thank you much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. This has been incredible.
Speaker 5: Thank you also. Yeah, so honored to be on.
Speaker 2: Can you let our listeners know where they can keep
Speaker 2: up with you and where they can tune in to
Speaker 2: Stars and Stars with Issa.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I am Isa, Naka is A and Aka on
Speaker 4: all platforms, and then my show is Stars and Stars
Speaker 4: of Lisa. We have weekly drops every Tuesday, and it's dope,
Speaker 4: you're gonna listen to me read artists birth charts, and
Speaker 4: it's kind of like a hybrid between an astrology birth
Speaker 4: chart reading and an interview. And so if you're an
Speaker 4: astrology fan or not, there's something for you. And so
Speaker 4: you can find that everywhere you get podcasts.
Speaker 1: It's so good. The rock sane gay one.
Speaker 3: I need to tune into that one one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's my favorite. Yes, yeah, And bio Acoma that's
Speaker 5: my favorite.
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you Loka mos for tuning into
Speaker 1: another episode of lok at Dora Radio. We'll catch you
Speaker 1: next time. Bessitos Loka do A Radio is executive produced
Speaker 1: by Viosa Fem and Mala Munios.
Speaker 2: Stephanie Franco is our producer.
Speaker 1: Story editing by Me.
Speaker 3: Diosa creative direction by me Mala.
Speaker 1: Look at A Radio is a part of iHeartRadio's Michael
Speaker 1: Dura podcast Network.
Speaker 2: You can listen to Lokata Radio on the iHeartRadio app
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Leave us a review and share with your prima or
Speaker 1: share with your homegirl.
Speaker 2: And thank you to our local motes, to our listeners
Speaker 2: for tuning in each and every week.
Speaker 1: Besitos Lokaloni