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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at Breaking Points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 1: it means the absolute world to have your support. What

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Speaker 1: are you waiting for? Become a premium subscriber today at

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Speaker 1: Breakingpoints dot com. All right, good morning, everybody, welcome to Counterpoints. Emily.

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Speaker 1: How you doing. I'm good. How about you, Ryan, I'm fine,

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Speaker 1: good fine. I like that You're honest, You're fine, fine, good, well,

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Speaker 1: happy for you. Yes, there you go. So we got

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Speaker 1: a big show today, and it's so big actually we're

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Speaker 1: not gonna be able to fit all of it into

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Speaker 1: the show that goes out to premium suscribers. If you're

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Speaker 1: a premium describer, you get the show an hour early

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Speaker 1: and you get it with no ads at all in

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Speaker 1: one row. But we're going to have a couple of

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Speaker 1: segments afterwards and aren't going to fit into that. So

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Speaker 1: apologies for that. If you're a premium subscriber, you still

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Speaker 1: have to come to YouTube afterwards. And if you listen

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Speaker 1: to this on the podcast, just bounce over for a

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Speaker 1: couple of guest segments that we're going to have. I

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Speaker 1: was going to say partially, we finished partially because we

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Speaker 1: have an in person guest. Today. We have a couple

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Speaker 1: of guests. So there's a lot going on, right and

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Speaker 1: we've got to get the show done at a certain

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Speaker 1: time in the morning so that it gets out and

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Speaker 1: it can be a morning show. What we were doing

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Speaker 1: the Friday show, it was coming out at like one

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Speaker 1: or two o'clock. That's not a morning show. That's when

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Speaker 1: I wake up. What news do we have this morning?

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Speaker 1: So President Biden has responded to the news that classified

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Speaker 1: information was found at his University of Delaware office. Let's

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Speaker 1: see what you had to say. Well, let me get

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Speaker 1: rid of the easy one. First. People know I take

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Speaker 1: classified documents and class of information seriously. When my lawyers

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Speaker 1: were clearing out my office at the University of Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: they set up an office for me secure office in

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Speaker 1: the Capitol. When the four years after being Vice president,

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Speaker 1: I was professor at penn they found some documents in

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Speaker 1: the box, you know, lock cabinet, or at least the closet,

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Speaker 1: and as soon as they did, they realized there were

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Speaker 1: several classified documents in that box, and they did what

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Speaker 1: they should have done. They immediately call the Archives. Immediately

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Speaker 1: call the Archives, turned them over to the Archives. And

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Speaker 1: I was briefed about this discovery and surprised to learn

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Speaker 1: that there are any government records that were taken there

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Speaker 1: to that office. But I don't know what's in the documents.

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Speaker 1: My lawyers have not suggested I ask what documents they were.

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Speaker 1: I've turned over the boxes, They've turned over the boxes

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Speaker 1: to the Archives, and we're cooperating fully, cooperating fully with

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Speaker 1: the review and which I hope will be finished soon

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Speaker 1: and will be more detail at that time. Their first question,

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Speaker 1: now I forgot the end of that clip. So obviously

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Speaker 1: there's drew a media parallels with the documents found at

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Speaker 1: mar A Lago. I think there are some key differences.

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Speaker 1: It is also, I think amusing to revisit some of

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Speaker 1: the sky is falling takes from the time when the

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Speaker 1: class documents were discovered at mar A Lago, which weren't

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Speaker 1: just over. One of the key distinctions here, which is

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump not returning the classified documents, whereas Biden's team

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Speaker 1: reported them and was in the process of getting them

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Speaker 1: to the National Archives apparently pretty quickly. But there were

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Speaker 1: people who are actually freaking out about the fact that

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Speaker 1: classified documents were in an insecure location and had been

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Speaker 1: moved to begin with. That was, in and of itself

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Speaker 1: beyond the pale, and it was something that only we

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Speaker 1: could only see from corrupt people who don't care at

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Speaker 1: all about our democracy, et cetera, et cetera. That said, though, Ryan,

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Speaker 1: that difference is I think significant. Yeah, And I subscribe

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Speaker 1: to a kind of different version of the Chinese proverb,

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Speaker 1: which says, may you live in funny times? This is funny?

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, absolutely like this is this is very funny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're very by that proverb. We are we are blessed

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Speaker 1: beyond the Yes, we live in very funny times. Now.

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Speaker 1: In some ways, if you want to get super cynical

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Speaker 1: about it, Democrats have already gotten everything they wanted. I mean,

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Speaker 1: plenty of Democrats want Trump and jail, right, okay, But

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Speaker 1: to me, if you're a Democrat and you want Trump

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Speaker 1: and jail, put him in jail for the thing that

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Speaker 1: you think is the biggest crime that he committed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: put him and Stephen Miller in the same cell for

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Speaker 1: separating children at the border, or like whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that you think is this is the real crime, then

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Speaker 1: you have to put Biden and Obama in the same cell.

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Speaker 1: That's fine, I mean not in the same cell. Put

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Speaker 1: him right next, do it right across the across the thing,

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Speaker 1: maybe in a big cellah, and they can interact in

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Speaker 1: jen pop Well, that can go through the legal process. Right.

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Speaker 1: But so if that, if that's your goal that you

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Speaker 1: want Trump in prison, I think you should go for

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Speaker 1: the greatest crime that you think that he committed. But

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Speaker 1: if you're a cynical Democrat who just is looking for

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Speaker 1: political advantage, you got what you wanted out of this

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Speaker 1: in the fall, Like you wanted the attention of the

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Speaker 1: public to be on Donald Trump, because that that rallies

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Speaker 1: Democratic voters and it kind of turns a lot of

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Speaker 1: independence off of you know, off of Republicans, moves them

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Speaker 1: over to the Democratic side. And unless he's on the ballot,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily tell me if you think I'm wrong

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Speaker 1: about this, It doesn't necessarily bring enough Republicans out to

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Speaker 1: counteract it. Like Trump to me, kind of has to

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Speaker 1: be himself on the ballot, whereas just the ghost of

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Speaker 1: Trump is enough to get Democrats scared enough to vote yes.

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Speaker 1: And it's not what we I think what we learned

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Speaker 1: in the midterms is that is not on the flip

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Speaker 1: side of that enough to get Republicans. If you're running

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Speaker 1: doctor Oz, you're not going to put up the same

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Speaker 1: numbers in your county. So yeah, and I think the

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Speaker 1: goal with that seemed to be pretty clearly. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: was the siphoning of the attention, but also in the

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Speaker 1: direction of an indictment. Let's keep piling more and more

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Speaker 1: things on Donald Trump that potentially one will get to

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Speaker 1: an indictment which would potentially disqualify him from running for

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Speaker 1: office again. And that's definitely part of the strategy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And now on the substance of this, to me, kind

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Speaker 1: of the national security state has gone so far into

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Speaker 1: overclassification in the sense that they are classifying so much

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Speaker 1: of their so much of their content that they produce

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Speaker 1: either for turf reasons just to keep politicians out to

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Speaker 1: grow their own power, or to cover up their own

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Speaker 1: embarrassments because they don't want it exposed. Like think about

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Speaker 1: how many things that we've we can just think off

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Speaker 1: the top that they've failed on in just the last

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Speaker 1: five years. They don't. They don't want all of their

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Speaker 1: kind of internal deliberations which have led to those failures exposed.

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Speaker 1: And you're not supposed to use classification to cover up errors,

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Speaker 1: and so to me, the National security state has so

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Speaker 1: little standing when it comes to complaining about classification that's

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Speaker 1: very hard to take any of their complaints seriously about this.

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Speaker 1: That said, if if, if they could prove that Trump

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Speaker 1: was trying to sell things that he had that he

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Speaker 1: had held on to and he's doing all this very

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Speaker 1: trumpy stuff where he's like claiming he's returned everything and

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Speaker 1: then telling his workers to move them from one place

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Speaker 1: to another, like he's doing a lot of shady stuff.

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Speaker 1: And if on top of that he's like selling it

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Speaker 1: or he's showing it to like people, he really obviously

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Speaker 1: very much should not be yeah, okay, or if it's

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Speaker 1: accessible to people, like if he's if mar A Lago

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Speaker 1: as I suspect is very vulnerable to espionage and that

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Speaker 1: kind of activity, and there's material that's not being kept securely.

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Speaker 1: The same applies for Biden's office but to your point,

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Speaker 1: we have no idea what really level of classification this deserved.

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Speaker 1: And then on top of all of that, you have

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Speaker 1: to think about the So the hypotheticals are always there,

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Speaker 1: and that's why we have the law because all of

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Speaker 1: those hypotheticals completely exist. But then what's the actual risk?

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Speaker 1: Totally different question, and there's so many I think unanswered

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Speaker 1: parts of it. I like Biden's response, He's like, it

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Speaker 1: was in a locked cabinet, Well, it was in a

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Speaker 1: box that might have been in a closet. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like the Russian nesting doll secure space. And also there's

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Speaker 1: no loophole on that. Yeah yeah, now, well that's a right.

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Speaker 1: And so Hillary Clinton did not end up getting charged,

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Speaker 1: it costs her presidency, but she'd end up getting charged

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Speaker 1: with mishandling classified information. And call Me went through the

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Speaker 1: whole list of reasons why they had not charged with

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Speaker 1: mishandling information. Those reasons would seem to apply to Biden here,

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Speaker 1: because if it's incidental or whatever. And the other problem

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Speaker 1: is if you're classifying basically every single like lunch schedule

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Speaker 1: at the CIA, which I'm sure they do, they classify

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Speaker 1: the lunch the soup of the day classified and you

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Speaker 1: wind up like with a receipt from the CIA in

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Speaker 1: your box, like when you went out to Langley and

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Speaker 1: had lunch. I don't think he's eating in the cafeteria.

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Speaker 1: Actually probably, but if he did, then you'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's classified documents, so totally. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: I have no sympathy. These are the people that write

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Speaker 1: the rules. Well, that's the other thing that Trump can claim.

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Speaker 1: He's he's he's declassified these documents, therefore they're allowed to

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Speaker 1: be right, although he was vice president, that's right, So

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Speaker 1: there he could doesn't have the same magic warn power

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Speaker 1: that Trump. Technically, I think is there's a legal case

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Speaker 1: that he can wield the power that way. But again,

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Speaker 1: this is all a ridiculous sort of glimpse into the

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Speaker 1: classification process. I think he also said he was at

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Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania before he was vice president. He

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Speaker 1: said that. I think that's what he said. There. Great anyway,

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Speaker 1: So we also have some heartbreaking news to share on

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Speaker 1: the death of New York Times reporter Blake Hounschel. He previously,

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Speaker 1: as you may know, worked at Politico and Foreign Policy,

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Speaker 1: and he leaves behind a wife, and two children. His

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Speaker 1: family said in a statement, quote is with great sorrow

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Speaker 1: that we have to inform you that Blake has suddenly

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Speaker 1: died this morning after a long and courageous battle with depression, unquote.

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Speaker 1: And to me, it was extraordinarily courageous of the family

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Speaker 1: to share that statement, because suicide may be the thing

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Speaker 1: in our society that is the most common, yet the

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Speaker 1: least talked about, and breaking through that silence, I think

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Speaker 1: is something that takes an enormous amount of courage. And

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Speaker 1: you know, so for the past few months, you know,

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Speaker 1: you and I have been talking about dedicating this show,

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Speaker 1: which airs on January eleventh, to the life and the

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Speaker 1: legacy of Internet pioneer and activists Aaron Swartz, who died

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Speaker 1: by suicide ten years ago. A tragic just a tragic

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Speaker 1: coinciding of events exactly on this day, right January, exactly

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Speaker 1: on this day, January eleventh, twenty thirteen. And so we'll

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Speaker 1: have more on that to come. Yeah, and you shared

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Speaker 1: a really poignant piece from huff Post of your former

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Speaker 1: colleague on you know, could it really be that simple

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Speaker 1: about suicide? Suicide? An experiment that ran over the course

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Speaker 1: of years a couple of different versions of it actually

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Speaker 1: where you send vulnerable people letters and their responses about

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Speaker 1: what that meant to them and how it changed their

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Speaker 1: experiences suffering with depression and trauma. Just incredible. And that's

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Speaker 1: one of the interviews that we won't be able to

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Speaker 1: fit into the like the show that we're going to

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Speaker 1: be able to put together this morning, but it'll it'll

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Speaker 1: be up soon after. And Blake was a friend of yours.

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Speaker 1: I knew Blake, I respected Blake a lot. It would

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Speaker 1: be I think over the top for me to kind

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Speaker 1: of claim that Blake Blake was a friend, But I've

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Speaker 1: known him for a very very long time and somebody

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Speaker 1: I've always respected. Yeah, And it's and it's heartbreaking to

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Speaker 1: see to see somebody succumb to this with a young family.

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Speaker 1: It's and you know, and we'll talk about this in

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Speaker 1: our interview with Jason Cherkis later he put he noted

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Speaker 1: in his story that more than nine million people a

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Speaker 1: year contemplate suicide in the United States. And we're a

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Speaker 1: country of about three hundred and thirty million people, So

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Speaker 1: that's a that's an enormous number of people who are

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Speaker 1: looking at the stress that our society produces and that

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Speaker 1: life produces and just and just considering the solution of

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Speaker 1: ending it. And so and we're gonna we're gonna delved

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Speaker 1: part of that because despite despite that phenomenon being so widespread,

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Speaker 1: it just never gets talked about. You know, media is

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Speaker 1: an interesting place, and we don't need to get too

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Speaker 1: far into this because it's it's also kind of applies

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Speaker 1: across the board. But people work so many different non

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Speaker 1: traditional hours and are traveling on the road and are

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Speaker 1: up early late, have just unpredictable schedules, which brings them

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Speaker 1: into closer contact with their colleagues and interesting ways. And

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Speaker 1: I think some of the remembrances of Blake that have

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Speaker 1: been shared over the last twenty four hours just by

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Speaker 1: Tim Alberta and some other fat just really really beautiful memories.

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Speaker 1: And it's a it's a unique job in that sense

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Speaker 1: that you get to know people better than others do

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Speaker 1: in their workplaces, I'm sure, and so it's a wonderful

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Speaker 1: I think honor to an honor to his memory, yeah

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Speaker 1: for sure. And so we'll also be joined later in

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Speaker 1: the show by Representative Rocana. You know, he represents Silicon Valley.

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Speaker 1: He's going to talk about Aaron and his his legacy

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Speaker 1: as well as well as talking about an unusual bipartisan

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Speaker 1: bill that he's introduced with Representative Marco Rubio that's intended

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Speaker 1: to rebuild American industry. And later later in the show,

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Speaker 1: we'll be talking with Aaron's friend at longtime collaborator David Siegel,

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Speaker 1: who was who co founded the organization to the kind

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Speaker 1: of bipart of an organization, Demand Progress that with Aaron

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Speaker 1: and will also be joined as you mentioned by Jason

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Speaker 1: cherkis the author of this groundbreaking article called the Best

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Speaker 1: Way to Save People from Suicide? So, you know. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: in California, in a bizarre kind of dystopian split screen,

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Speaker 1: the Golden Globes returned from their kind of forced cultural exile.

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Speaker 1: Ryan wrote a little script, and I like that you

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Speaker 1: said forced cultural exile, because that's yeah, that's perfect. That's

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened. They were exiled and then they just

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Speaker 1: kind of came back. Nothing happened. He is everything, Okay,

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Speaker 1: are we allowed back in? Guys? How is everything since

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Speaker 1: we've been gone? And meanwhile the state is just like

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Speaker 1: ninety five percent of it or something is under flood warnings.

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Speaker 1: There was sunshine at the very moment that the Golden

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Speaker 1: Globes were being held a sign from God. So it's

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Speaker 1: signed from God. So there is it is approval, pass

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Speaker 1: over the dogs. There's there's there's there's more torrential rains

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Speaker 1: coming later in this week after you know, some seventeen

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Speaker 1: people died over the last several weeks because of this. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they're estimated already more than a billion dollars of damage.

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Speaker 1: And we can roll some of this the the like

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Speaker 1: the footage coming out of California, and I'm sure like

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Speaker 1: tons of our viewers are in California, so they don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily need the footage. They can just look out their

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Speaker 1: windows if they haven't evacuated. But it's receding in some places.

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Speaker 1: But the torrential rains are coming back over the next

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Speaker 1: couple of days. It's also then expected to move north.

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Speaker 1: Just just utterly dystopian scenes while the Golden Globes are

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Speaker 1: playing out. Do you watch any of the Golden Globes? No,

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I'm probably gonna have to go back and

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Speaker 1: rewatch them. But they were running spots promoting the Golden

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Speaker 1: Globes with Tracy Morgan, who I always referred to as

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Speaker 1: Tracy Jordan, because Dirty Rock is so indelibly imprinted in

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Speaker 1: my mind saying I am the face of post racial America. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: Kate Blanchette. Which is really funny because the Golden Globes

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons for their first cultural exile was

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Speaker 1: that they had controversy, basically racial controversy that sidelined them

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Speaker 1: for a year. And I see it as kind they do.

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Speaker 1: They had no black journalists on the HFPA, So that's

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Speaker 1: kind of bad. It's pretty bad, bad by your own standards,

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Speaker 1: and sort of unthinkable in general. So anyway, the forced

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Speaker 1: cultural exile, perhaps for good reason, but it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like whatever I'm just talking about last year, the vibe shift,

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Speaker 1: right that now you're promoting the Golden Globes with this

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Speaker 1: irreverent like non PC Golden Globes were always the boozy,

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Speaker 1: like Hollywood's night of irreverent self awareness. So I saw

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Speaker 1: it a sort of a test of the the vibe shift, right,

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Speaker 1: Is it really happening? Hollywood had an interesting year, And

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Speaker 1: I could go on and on about that, but maybe

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Speaker 1: I could do a monologue on it next week. You're right, though,

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Speaker 1: it reminded me of the covid era oscars where they

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Speaker 1: did it in Union Station in LA. They did it

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Speaker 1: in the train, like in the train station, and you

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Speaker 1: had all these celebrities. They were separated and masked and

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Speaker 1: all of that, but the party went on. And it's

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Speaker 1: sort of like that with the split screen golden goat

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Speaker 1: globes and flooding across California where you said we're already

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Speaker 1: at a death toll nearing twenty a billion dollars of damage. Incredible.

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Speaker 1: I didn't watch Shockingly last night, but I saw somebody

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Speaker 1: post that it's they're practically playing kind of funeral music

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of it rather than their normal celebratory

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Speaker 1: like we're about the party, right, think because they were

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Speaker 1: trying to read the room, They're like, are we are

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Speaker 1: we allowed back in? So if we're allowed back in,

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Speaker 1: we're going to make sure that we're very somber. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we're very measured. We're not having much fun because

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Speaker 1: everybody else is suffering. But I think this is a

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Speaker 1: glimpse into our kind of dystopian future where you're going

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Speaker 1: to be seeing these images of our global elites just

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Speaker 1: having the time of their lives within half a mile

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Speaker 1: of complete carnage in California is sort of the most

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Speaker 1: interesting place in the world to watch for that because

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Speaker 1: the wealth disparities in California are incredible and at the

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Speaker 1: same time those go along with the I mean, California

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Speaker 1: is a crazy amount of natural disasters. But remember the

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Speaker 1: wildfires year where Kim Kardashian and Kanye West hired private firefighters. Right,

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Speaker 1: they build in these areas that are very vulnerable to wildfires,

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Speaker 1: but they can then afford the private firefighters to protect

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Speaker 1: the property. The same thing if you're really wealthy in

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Speaker 1: building on some of these grounds that are vulnerable, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a different story for you than everyone else. So

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Speaker 1: the confluence of wealth and vulnerability to natural disasters in

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Speaker 1: California makes it one of the most incredible places to

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Speaker 1: watch all of this play out. Our producer Griffin was

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Speaker 1: pointing out that this is a rare case of kind

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Speaker 1: of environmental just reverse environmental justice, that the super wealthy

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Speaker 1: who have built all their houses on cliffs and on

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Speaker 1: these hills are the ones that are actually that in

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Speaker 1: many ways the most vulnerable. That's point. Have you been

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Speaker 1: to Monecito covered, Oh my gosh, one of the most

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Speaker 1: beautiful places in the world, let alone the United States

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Speaker 1: and one of the wealthiest places in the United States

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Speaker 1: that just got battered, and all of the Ellen de

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Speaker 1: Generes was out there where their selfie O right, ellen

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Speaker 1: DeGeneres was saying this is what was she saying? A

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Speaker 1: message from Mother nature something like that. But it is

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Speaker 1: again it gets this juxtaposition of extreme wealth and celebrity

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Speaker 1: and then you have like real questions of privilege that

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Speaker 1: I think are reasonably brought up. It is really interesting.

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Speaker 1: This is from NPR, the World Meteorological Organization. They've calculated

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Speaker 1: that while the number of disasters increased five times over

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Speaker 1: the last fifty years, the number of fatalities has fallen

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Speaker 1: by two thirds, which makes sense for a lot of reasons.

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Speaker 1: We have sea walls, more effective sea walls, we have

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Speaker 1: more effective predictive meteorological technology. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: none of that is quite enough, right And so CNN,

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Speaker 1: if we could throw this tear sheet up. Sanan had

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Speaker 1: had an actually interesting interview with a couple of scientists

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Speaker 1: who are They didn't quite make the parallel to the

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Speaker 1: out of control fires that they have in California, but

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Speaker 1: it kind of comes through in the article. But what

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Speaker 1: they're basically saying is that because of the way that

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Speaker 1: California has been so has been built, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people would say overbuilt, that it was built for

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Speaker 1: a particular climate. The climate has now changed. And so

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Speaker 1: if you add on to that the way that on

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Speaker 1: the fire side, it's constant fire suppression, which then interrupts

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Speaker 1: the kind of cycle that forests need to go through

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Speaker 1: when it comes to flooding because they have built up

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Speaker 1: and channeled around so many of the natural water sources

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Speaker 1: that they don't they don't have, they don't have a

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Speaker 1: natural way of flooding, and so when when you get

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Speaker 1: torrential rains like this, then you get explosive flooding. We

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Speaker 1: have one scientist, Peter Peter Gleicky says we have to

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Speaker 1: let our rivers flow differently and let the rivers flood

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Speaker 1: a little more and recharge our groundwater in wet seasons.

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Speaker 1: Instead of thinking we can control all floods, we have

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Speaker 1: to learn to live with them. We need new thinking.

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Speaker 1: We need to operate that infrastructure differently. We need to

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Speaker 1: change some of the characteristics of that infrastructure that will

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Speaker 1: allow us to capture more of these flood flows store

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Speaker 1: it underground in these aquifers and then use those groundwater

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Speaker 1: resources when we need them in dry years. And so

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Speaker 1: this is this is something that California is going to

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Speaker 1: have to do, Like it's going to require Democrats, who

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Speaker 1: are one party state practically in California, to actually do

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Speaker 1: some governing and say, look, this is these are the

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Speaker 1: problems that we have need to collectively govern as a

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Speaker 1: people in order to respond to them, rather than just

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Speaker 1: you know, just lamenting the natural disasters and then and

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Speaker 1: then just rebuilding precisely as you were built before the disaster. Well,

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Speaker 1: in California is a one party state. That's basically the

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Speaker 1: politics are co opted by corporate interests. And it's not

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Speaker 1: just California Democrats, although California Democrats are a huge part

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Speaker 1: of it. What PG and E has been able to

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Speaker 1: get away with in that state is incredible. And so

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Speaker 1: it's it's not just a matter of saying we have

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Speaker 1: to do X, Y and Z. It's a matter of

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Speaker 1: really breaking corporate your bonds with corporate interests that would

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Speaker 1: prefer to control control this in their own profitable way

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Speaker 1: or their own uh you know, controllable or or the

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Speaker 1: least harmful to profit margin way, and that's an incredible

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Speaker 1: task for a state like California that I think is

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Speaker 1: so deep in the one party corporate control hoole. It's

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Speaker 1: a really, really, really hard hole to start taking out of. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it reminds me actually of what we were talking

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Speaker 1: about when the Miami Con Complex collapse, which is in California.

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Speaker 1: You see similar things, these beautiful locations where we've been

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Speaker 1: able to develop technology really quickly that lets us build up.

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Speaker 1: We're that's not always going to that's not always going

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Speaker 1: to be there, because that's just not how it's not

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Speaker 1: how the world works, and it's not how the world

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Speaker 1: has ever worked that things just stay the same and

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Speaker 1: you can be safe in one place for you know, millennia.

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Speaker 1: It's just not how it works. Flights across the United

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Speaker 1: States were grounded at around what's seven twenty seven point

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Speaker 1: thirty this morning due to a FAA outage of their

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Speaker 1: no TAM system right, which is used to alert pilots

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Speaker 1: around about various hazards Notice to air missions, Notice to

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Speaker 1: Air Missions. The FAA saying that they're going to be

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Speaker 1: grounded at least until nine o'clock. United Airlines saying that

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Speaker 1: they're delaying everything until ten am. We don't we don't

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Speaker 1: know that if at nine am that means they will

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Speaker 1: have everything cleared up. The White House Press Secretary has

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Speaker 1: said that they don't have any evidence yet that this

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Speaker 1: was a hack, that this was a site cyber attack.

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Speaker 1: Southwest also saying that it's delaying flights till or that

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Speaker 1: they're monitoring this closely. Southwest probably kind of breathing a

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Speaker 1: cyber relief and now they can blame the government for

429
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: this rather than their own incompetence because they've been under

430
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: the gun over the last few weeks. This is producing

431
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: bedlam at airports around the country, all domestic flights. I mean,

432
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: it's like them, that's what they did after nine to eleven. Yes,

433
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: like all of them. And when you have such a

434
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: finely calibrated system that is so dependent, it's an ecosystem basically,

435
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: it is so dependent on getting things with you know

436
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: a little wiggle room of course, like one to point

437
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: A to point B than B two C. And if

438
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: you break one of those links, let alone all of

439
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: those links, it's it's not going to go well for days.

440
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: There's no digging out of this. You know, it may

441
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: seem like ninety minutes, no big deal if in fact

442
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: they get this back up by nine am. But of

443
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: course the rest of us know that's just not how

444
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: the the flight system works. Once flights are delayed and canceled,

445
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: it throws things off literally for days. Yeah, I wonder

446
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 1: how long of a complete outage they could have, maybe

447
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 1: half an hour maybe where they can kind of work

448
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: work the system through and get back on track by

449
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: the end of the day. We're looking at a minimum

450
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: hour and a half with if if other airlines follow

451
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: follow United United, we're talking at two and we're talking

452
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: two and a half hours. Like you said, it's an

453
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 1: entire ecosystem, and so just moving it all this way

454
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: is not so simple because now, the now, the now,

455
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: the flights and the cruise that were supposed to head

456
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: from Baltimore to Toledo or not arriving in Toledo, the

457
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: ones that are supposed to leave, you know, Toledo for Atlanta.

458
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: People miss their connections. People are missing certainly going to

459
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: miss their connections, the connections, the connections won't actually be there,

460
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: so that this could result in you know, days, days

461
00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: and days of carnage. And although finally here's an opportunity

462
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: for Pete Boota Judge to do something I was gonna say,

463
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: this is another massive black guy for Pete Buddha Judges.

464
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: I believe this is the first time since nine to

465
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: eleven that the FA has grounded all domestic flights. Obviously,

466
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: it's a safety and security issue when you're talking about

467
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: this particular system. But the question then becomes and this

468
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: is very early. It's literally a breaking story as we're

469
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: talking right here. So we don't know what's behind this,

470
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: if anything. We don't know if it was a glitch,

471
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: we don't know if it was nefarious in some way

472
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: or another, but we do know it's obviously another failure

473
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: of American infrastructure on a massive scale, and once again

474
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: with air travel in an industry that has incredible problems

475
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: that got bailouts to the tune of millions and millions

476
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: of dollars over the course of COVID and has obviously

477
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: struggled for market reasons, but also struggled for ridiculous corporate

478
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: reasons too. It's its own corporate greed and structure, and

479
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: Pete Bodha Judge has a real test in front of him,

480
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: and I think he's repeatedly failed that test. Over the

481
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: course of his tenure so far. Yeah, he's like, well,

482
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: he wants to be president, He's going to land in

483
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: this transportation secretary massive supply chain crisis that he was

484
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: not out in front of whatsoever, along with the airline crisis,

485
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: and then the failed kind of failed railway fight with

486
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: the unions where they forced to end up forcing a

487
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: contract onto the railroad workers, and then Southwest, and there was,

488
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: as Matt Stoller has explained passionately and many times, there

489
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: were things that could have been done from our Transportation Department,

490
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 1: which has purview over all of this, that were not

491
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: done for reasons that seems to be their relationship with

492
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: Corporate America. And there's also a structural and fundamental kind

493
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: of federal governing problem here that we've talked about before

494
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: on the show in relation to the way that the

495
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: federal government is still using like Microsoft ninety seven in

496
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: so many of its systems. And it comes down to

497
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: the kind of the way that the leader leadership is

498
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: structured in our governing system. So if you are hired

499
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: as a if you're brought in as an appointed, confirmable

500
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,239
Speaker 1: government official, you know you're probably gonna do a year

501
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: or two, maybe three years, Like it's it's unusual that

502
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: people are doing like an entire like eight year two

503
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: term stretch as a director of a particular agency. Therefore,

504
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: you don't have any incentive to look into the guts

505
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: of the of the computer system or any of the

506
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: other broader infrastructure that that your workers are relying on

507
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: and saying you say, is that a floppy disk that

508
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: you're saving this too? Because you're like, I'm only gonna

509
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: be here for eighteen months, and I'm being told to

510
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: cut spending here and I'm being told to save over here.

511
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: So if I come and say, look, this system is

512
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: just completely broken, like walk around a federal office and

513
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: look at the look at the size of the hard drives,

514
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: Like what we need to do is we need to

515
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: replace all this with you know, actual contemporary software computing equipment.

516
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: You the people above you're like, who's going to pay

517
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: for that? You want me going like, do you know

518
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: what Congress is dealing with right now? Because it's always

519
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: some manufactured crisis that Congress is dealing with. So you're

520
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: going to and so the the FAA is what's it

521
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: called the nomad, this agency that we've never even heard

522
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: of unless we're unless we're pilots are in the actual

523
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: system they want, you know, two hundred and fifty million

524
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: dollars for new software. Not doing that, are you crazy?

525
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: And and so they're like, all right, well, we'll just

526
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: keep rebooting this one and hope it keeps working. So

527
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: that that's why it may actually not be a cyber attack.

528
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: It just might be a system that was developed in

529
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: like two thousand and four and it's just Windows eight, yes,

530
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: Windows in the Windows speed they're running on XP. Yeah,

531
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: and it no longer operates probably with you know, airplanes

532
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: built after twenty fifteen or you know, you know, there's

533
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: just you know, at some point you have to invest

534
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: in your in your in your government earning kind of

535
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: fundamentals or or it's not going to last. Yeah, and

536
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: this is what we can talk about this more in

537
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: the IRS block. But it's a frustrating thing that when

538
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: you throw more money at government problems, you don't always

539
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: get better solutions. That doesn't mean that these things don't

540
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: need more money. It just means that you can throw

541
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: as much money at them if you want, as you want,

542
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: and it's not going to necessarily yield the results. And

543
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: just anecdotally over Christmas. I was thinking, last year I

544
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: sent I had a mail a bunch of stuff home

545
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: from Christmas when I went home to Wisconsin, and it

546
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: got the package got lost. So just a lot of

547
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: money worth of stuff got lost by USPS. I didn't

548
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: use bad x or ups, which I should have, but

549
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: I went to the postal service, paid money, sent it,

550
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: it got lost. They were looking for it over the

551
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: course of the year. Then this year Southwest outages right

552
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: like it was just infrastructure failure. Infrastructure failure, bookending two Christmases.

553
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: And that's why I think things like this are really

554
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: worth our time more than some other stories that people

555
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: like to talk about in media, because the basic infrastructure, like,

556
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: we're not functioning as a country in some very basic

557
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: ways right now, and this seems to be another good

558
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: example of that. And if you're watching this program on

559
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: your phone, sitting in a terminal wondering whether or when

560
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: your plane is going to take off, we feel for

561
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: you deeply, but we appreciate you sitting out there watching.

562
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: You could head over to the airport bar. You're allowed

563
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: to get a beer. The rule is there is no

564
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: time in an airport six am. But if you're in

565
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: an airport, you can still order a beer. It is

566
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: five o'clock perpetually at any airp r right, and you're traveling,

567
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: so therefore time is different. Yes, so head yourself over

568
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: to the bars. You might be there a while, that's right.

569
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: Unless you're in recovery, don't do that. Yeah, good advice.

570
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: That's always good advice for personal advice from Riding Ryan.

571
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: So you have a really interesting monologue on tap for today, Yep,

572
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: stick around for that. Like I said at the top,

573
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: we're dedicating today's show to the memory of Aaron Swartz,

574
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: who died ten years ago today at the age of

575
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: twenty six, leaving so much of his work for us

576
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: to finish without his critical help. It's genuinely hard to

577
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: overstate the role that he played in the development of

578
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: the Internet and its culture of openness, starting as a

579
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: boy and through to his death by suicide in twenty thirteen.

580
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: It will do several segments today on his life and legacy,

581
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: with more to come in the following weeks, because I

582
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: think it's worth reflecting on his contributions at a time

583
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: when the Internet would in some ways be barely recognizable

584
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: to him, and in other ways would be just what

585
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: he feared it might become now here. He is speaking

586
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: in a documentary that came out in two thousand and seven,

587
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: before Twitter or Facebook were really much of a thing.

588
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: In the old system of broadcasting, you're fundamentally limited by

589
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: the amount of space in the airwaves. You know, you

590
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: could only send out ten channels over the airwaves of

591
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: television right or even with cable you had five hundred channels.

592
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: On the Internet, everybody can have a channel, everyone can

593
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: get a blog or a MySpace page. Everyone has a

594
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: way of expressing themselves. And so what you see now

595
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: is not a question of who gets access to the airwaves.

596
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: It's a question of who gets control over the ways

597
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: you find people. You know, you start seeing power centralizing

598
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: insights like Google, these sort of gatekeepers that tell you

599
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: where on the Internet you want to go, the people

600
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: who provide you your sources of news and information. So

601
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: it's not you know, only certain people have a license

602
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: to speak. Now everyone has a license to speak. It's

603
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: a question of who gets heard. And for those of

604
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: you who are unfamiliar with him, you're probably familiar with

605
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: some of what he produced or produced in collaboration with

606
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: other people. He helped get Reddit going, for instance, and

607
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: was given the title of co founder, though it's a

608
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: more complicated story than that. He was also instrumental in

609
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: developing what's now called secure drop, which has allowed countless

610
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: whistleblowers to safely send documents to the media. He was

611
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: also dedicated to the free flow of information. In two

612
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, he downloaded more than four hundred thousand

613
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: documents from the West Law Database to comprehensively analyze them,

614
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: and was able to show that payments from corporations to

615
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: law school professors were resulting in law review articles that

616
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: would then be used by those corporations later in lawsuits,

617
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: significantly benefiting them in court. He published his findings in

618
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: a seminal Stanford Law Review article. That same year, he

619
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: downloaded some twenty million documents from the legal database PACER.

620
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: The FBI tried to find a crime in that, but

621
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: they couldn't. As he learned more about power, he became

622
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: increasingly involved in electoral and legislative politics, taking up the

623
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: issue of corruption in Washington, fighting against the wars in

624
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan, and trying to think deeply about how

625
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: to respond to the climate crisis. He played a leading

626
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: role in organizing the opposition to SOPA, which was an

627
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: Internet freedom bill which it was a titanic twenty eleven

628
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: battle over the future of what the Internet would look like,

629
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: in which cable companies and internet providers were trying to

630
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: team up with the government to effectively take control of

631
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: the Internet. Air inside of the battle called their goal

632
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: net neutrality, and they eventually won. But it's interesting to

633
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: think now about how far we've evolved from there. Many

634
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: of his allies at the time no longer looked so

635
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: fondly on the idea of a completely free and open Internet,

636
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: and into that gap, companies like Google, the ones he

637
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: warned about, are cynically weaponizing fears of disinformation and hate

638
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: speech to lock down their own control of the Internet.

639
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: In the fall of twenty ten, Aaron began downloading academic

640
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: articles from the database of Jstore. As a fellow at MIT,

641
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: he had free access to the articles and there was

642
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: really no legal limit to what he could download. Still,

643
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: prosecutor Stephen Hayman and his boss US attorney Carmen Ortiz

644
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: threatened him with thirty five years in prison, and when

645
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: he rejected a plea deal, they slapped a bunch more

646
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: bogus charges on him. As part of their plea deal,

647
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: they had wanted him to serve time and also not

648
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: to touch a computer for ten years. Prosecutors were warned

649
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: that he was a suicide risk, and Hayman replied to

650
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: Aaron's lawyer's fine, will lock him up. Aaron made a

651
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,959
Speaker 1: counter offer in January twenty twenty thirteen to the prosecutors,

652
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: and it was rejected. Soon afterwards, he took his own life. Now.

653
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: Members of Congress, both Democratic and Republican, spoke at his

654
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: memorial service, which was left by his friend and collaborator

655
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: David Siegel, who will join us later in the show.

656
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: With everything that Aaron had accomplished at such a young age,

657
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley was really his oyster. He could easily have

658
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: decided to mint himself several billion dollars. Instead, he threw

659
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: himself into making the Internet in the world at large

660
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: a better place. When today's billionaires decide that they want

661
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: to get into politics, they start writing massive checks and

662
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: just spreading them all over. Aaron decided to go be

663
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: an unpaid intern in Congress. The congressman he interned for,

664
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: Alan Grayson, was one of those who spoke at his

665
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: memorial and want to leave you with a little piece

666
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: of his eulogy. If we let that lead us to

667
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: the point where that is restrained, then going back all

668
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: the way to the time of Socrates, what we engage

669
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: in is human sacrifice. We sacrifice their lives out of

670
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: the misguided sense that we need to protect ourselves from them,

671
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: when in fact it's the opposite. Our lives have meaning.

672
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: Our lives have greater meaning from the things that they create.

673
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: So we're here today to remember Aaron and also to

674
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: try to learn from the experience to understand that prosecution

675
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: should not be persecution. This morning I reached into the

676
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: closet randomly, took out this tie and wore it. And

677
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: I have a sense that sometimes things are connected in

678
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: ways that aren't exactly obvious. It happens that this tie

679
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: is a painting of Starry Night by Vincent van Goh,

680
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: someone else whose life ended all too soon, And in

681
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: Don McLain's song about Vincent van Goh, it ends this way.

682
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: They would not listen. They're not listening still, perhaps they

683
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: never will. It's time to listen. And so Aaron was

684
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: somebody who would you know I've described himself on the left,

685
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 1: and you know, his his his political allies, his social circle,

686
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: we were generally on the left. The Internet at the time, though,

687
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: was this this place where people came together kind of

688
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: from different corners. You had, you know, you had a

689
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: lot of Ron Paul types, you know, you have you

690
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: had a lot of people who just believed in the

691
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: value of openness and the value of distributing power downward

692
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: and allowing it democratically then to then flow back back upwards.

693
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: When when you think about the things that Aaron was

694
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: fighting for, then, how does it make you think about

695
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: where the right was then and kind of where the

696
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: where the right is now and where the movement for

697
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: a kind of free and open Internet is. You know,

698
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: I was in sort of a rabbit hole reading about

699
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: Aaron last night and followed a link to his Twitter

700
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: profile which is still live, and actually one of his

701
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: last tweets was at you. He was needling you from

702
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: the headline. Yeah, he was like, my ryngram, I wasn't

703
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: this headline this? So it was a Peter King story

704
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: and it was incredibly depressing because it was a glimpse

705
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: into what not just Twitter, but the entire culture of

706
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: the Internet used to be. It was just completely different.

707
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: It looks the same on Twitter, It physically looks still

708
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: like Twitter, but it was a completely different mentality that

709
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: the sort of taste makers of the Internet brought to it.

710
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: You know, the leaders of this project that was the

711
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: Internet at the time had a totally different mentality. You know.

712
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: One of those people was Jack Dorsey. And I was

713
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: reading the New Yorker retrospective that I'm sure a lot

714
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: of people are familiar with that was published after he

715
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: passed away, and it quotes quin Norton saying, if you

716
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: look at twenty eleven to the present, there's an incredible

717
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: emotional rollercoaster about Internet freedom and the Arab revolutions. The

718
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: Internet was going to change everything, and at the end

719
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: of twenty eleven you would occupy and then that just

720
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: got destroyed. Twenty twelve was the year globally the heightening

721
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: of censorship and the heightening of surveillance. And then Aaron

722
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: killed himself. Aaron was so much the Internet's boy, and

723
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: that so much exemplified this machine crushing our hopes. I

724
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: think you made a really good point about net neutrality

725
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: in your monologue. It just it's completely. The mentality of

726
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: it has shifted to this almost safetyism that the Internet

727
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: can't be free because freedom is dangerous. And the danger

728
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: was sort of the point, because it wasn't just dangerous

729
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: to people, it was dangerous to corporations into power. And

730
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: instead of really protecting people, the safetyism protects corporations, and

731
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: it protects intelligence agencies and it protects their power. But

732
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: it's amazing how he saw that coming in ways that

733
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: were unfathomable I think to most people in twenty eleven,

734
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, one of the clips that you showed, right,

735
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: we didn't see it coming to the extent that it

736
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: has so quickly, right, And that was something that was

737
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: impressive about him is that he could see, you know,

738
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: he could take he could take stock of where we were,

739
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: and he could very easily see, you know, where this

740
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: was headed. And I don't want to freeze him in place.

741
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: I do think, you know, like everybody, he evolved, as

742
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: he would have evolved, as thinking, as new, as new

743
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: inputs came in. But I do think he would have

744
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: continued continued to struggle, you know, for that free and

745
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: open internet. And we'll talk with David Siegilmore about this later,

746
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: but in that net neutrality fight, there was this awkward

747
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: coalition and he's Aaron has spoken about this that Google

748
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: and to a lesser degree, some of the other now

749
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: big Silicon Valley companies were fighting against the telecoms, but

750
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: they were actually ready to give in. And Aaron talks

751
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: about some meetings that he was in very early on

752
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: where he's trying to stop SOPA, where they're like, look, yeah,

753
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: we don't like this, but let's see if we can

754
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: get a couple of changes made to it so that

755
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: we can live with it. Because they had such entrenched

756
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: power that even if if the fundamentals were locked in,

757
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: they're good. That's why that's why sometimes Facebook's like, sure,

758
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 1: get rid of Section two thirty. Oh of course, yeah,

759
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: because we're locked in. Yeah, they would prefer that you don't.

760
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: But if you do, they're they're going to be fine

761
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: and so well, and they might like it because it

762
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: hurts the little guys and the competitors who exactly and

763
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: so Aaron's Aaron, Aaron saw. Aaron saw that close up,

764
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: and he saw, Okay, these are somewhat allies in this

765
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,959
Speaker 1: limited fight, but they're not out there. They wouldn't spend

766
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: any money like it wasn't like Google was opposed to

767
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: SOPA and was therefore going to hire a bunch of

768
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: lobbyists and instruct those lobbyists to cut checks to politicians

769
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: and really and really fight this with everything they had.

770
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: They would put out a statement, and so it was.

771
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: It was actually kind of the rest of the Internet,

772
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: the small people that like ran blackouts, that organ that

773
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: that or that basically organized and let the public know,

774
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: like this, this is what's going to happen if you

775
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: let the cable companies and the telecoms basically control control

776
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 1: the Internet. So he was so while he was willing

777
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: pragmatically to kind of work with them on that on

778
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: that issue, he he very much understood in real time

779
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: these are not allies, like these are not allies long term.

780
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: I just found the post you're talking about from about

781
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: three weeks before. He can't believe Ryan Graham didn't headline

782
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 1: this quote Peter King introduces bill outlawing guns near Peter King. Yes,

783
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: it's actually a good headline, good editorial judgment, the excellent editory.

784
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: One of my you know, one of one of my

785
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: big regrets in life is that I never got a

786
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: chance to work with him in the same organization, like

787
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: I would have loved. It's kind of I was at

788
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: Huffington Post at the time, and if I could have

789
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: like talked him into coming to work for us, do

790
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: you think you done it? I think maybe think it's possible.

791
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 1: I think he was open to a bunch of different things.

792
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: You know, we saw very eye to eye on everything,

793
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: and I think he loved experimenting. And one of the

794
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: things that I've taken from him is he's he would

795
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: say always you just test every, test everything. He was

796
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: a b test everything. So if you'd ask him, like, well,

797
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: what do you what do you think we should do

798
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: about this particular situation, So we'll test it. Yeah, Like,

799
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: don't don't assume that you intrinsically just know the answer,

800
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: Like try something and figure out a way to measure it,

801
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: and then go with the one that works. And then

802
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: now if you have two other options that work, go

803
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: with those two and just and constantly and and and

804
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: as I think about that, I think it just means

805
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: be humble, like you know, you know, constantly you know,

806
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: question your own your own judgment, and constantly test against reality.

807
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: You know, how how your perceptions are faring. I heard

808
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: that described one time, and this phrase is stuck with

809
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: me as epistemological humility, and I feel like there was

810
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: a lot of that, and that this was by Nick Gillespie.

811
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: I think of reasons, so libertarian guy, and I feel

812
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: like the culture of the internet libertarian isn't the right

813
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: word because it's reductive, but it had that sort of

814
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: devil may care. Everything is possible, and we're going to

815
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: show you. We're going to show you what the best.

816
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: We're going to find the best way to do this thing,

817
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: which is life on earth, because we have all of

818
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: these new tools at our disposal and we're going to

819
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: do it. And Internet pioneers had that spirit in a

820
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: way that it's just the people who run our internet now,

821
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: don't just completely randomly kind of segueing into this next segment.

822
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: The last two posts of Aaron Swartz of his life

823
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: were both about and for many years I would think

824
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: look back at his Twitter account and think this is

825
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: I would regret that these were the last two, but

826
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: there's something also profound about the fact that we're back

827
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: now ten years later. His last two posts were about

828
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 1: the idea of minting the coin, mint the coin, and

829
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: we are back. And because the Freedom Caucus, in exchange

830
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: for its support of Kevin McCarthy or those Freedom Caucus holdouts,

831
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: were able to extract a concession from him. Although we

832
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: can talk about whether or not it was actually a

833
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: concession or whether this is the kind of thing that

834
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: Republicans were going to do anyway, but it's to use

835
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: the debt ceilings as leverage, as a hostage against the

836
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: Biden administration, against the Senate to say, in order for

837
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: us to not default on our debt, we are going

838
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: to demand these following concessions around spending. And basically they

839
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: want to take all spending back to at most twenty

840
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: twenty two levels, including defense spending, which is going to

841
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: cause some heartburn within the Republican hawk community. The response

842
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: when Democrat when Republicans did this ten years ago from

843
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: the left was to say, use this constitutional, but obscure

844
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: and kind of weird sounding move, which is called minting

845
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: the coin. The Constitution allows the US Mint to produce

846
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: coinage of any value, doesn't say what the value is,

847
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: So the US Mint could take a platinum coin, put

848
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: Trump's face on it, which they really should, and deem

849
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: it to be worth one trillion dollars, thirty trillion dollars,

850
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: sixty trillion dollars, it doesn't matter. That's that's pointless for

851
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: the exercise. And then that gets deposited. The New York

852
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: Federal Reserve then credits the Treasury with an extra thirty

853
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: trillion dollars. That doesn't enter that thirty trillion dollars into

854
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: circulation and spark runaway inflation. But what it does is

855
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: it gives the Treasury the ability to then pay the

856
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: debts that have been appropriated by Congress, that have been

857
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: authorized by Congress. So when when somebody's got a tea

858
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: bond and they turn it in, then they can catch

859
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: that tea bond. That's all it means. It allows the

860
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: system to continue to function. And so I don't know

861
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: if we have those have his posts here, So here's

862
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: the US mint. One of the US men, I say, yes,

863
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: let's do it. And then his other one was linking

864
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: to a White House petition, which we can put the

865
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: second one up that which ended up collecting hundreds of

866
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: thousands of signatures. If you click that now it just

867
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: goes to a deadline. Because Trump got rid of all

868
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: of Obama's White House petitions, right, But I'm sure you're

869
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: going to see this again, people saying, don't even negotiate

870
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: with the Freedom Caucus, just meant the coin and be

871
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: done with it. So what do you think? So I

872
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: think the Mint the coin folks have a point, and

873
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: that's not good. I think it's actually like, the real

874
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: conversation here is about what's happened to our monetary system

875
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 1: post Gold standard, what's happened to the world's monetary system

876
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: in the last hundred years plus. It's happened very quickly.

877
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: But I think they completely have a point. I mean

878
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: it's it's actually very hard without getting into the wonky

879
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: sort of weeds of monetary policy on a very basic level,

880
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: to say that they don't have a point, because they

881
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: do and they really do have a point, and so

882
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of like people are at an impasse.

883
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: I'm curious what the Venn diagram is between MMT and MINT,

884
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: the coin on the left. It's probably pretty Yeah, it's

885
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: just a circle, right, Because if you're a modern monetary

886
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: theory person, then you think what matters is you know,

887
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: what it matters is the money supply, inflation, tax rates, resources. Basically, yeah,

888
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,240
Speaker 1: if if there if there is too much money chasing

889
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: too few resources, then you need either to invest in

890
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: a way that produces more, produces more for the economy,

891
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: it's more real stuff. Or you need to tax or

892
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: you need to tax money out of the economy nowhere

893
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: in that is. Or the debt, the deficit, like the

894
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: debt ceiling a factor, right, that's not yeah, right, that's

895
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: not an issue. And if it winds up in the

896
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, that that also gets interesting because then you're

897
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: asking John Roberts and his crew to produce a global

898
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 1: financial crisis, like to issue a ruling that knocks ten

899
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: thousand points out the stock market and makes ATMs not work.

900
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: If we're going to take the worst case scenarios on that,

901
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: and that is to me, you tell me, you know

902
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: the Conservative court better to me, that's not what Amy

903
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: Coney Barrett signed up for, South, John Roberts signed up for,

904
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: seol Neil courses. None of them signed up for that. Like,

905
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: they have an agenda that they want to accomplish as

906
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: a majority on the Supreme Court, and I think that

907
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: destroying the global economy could actually get in the way

908
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: of that agenda. You know this is the thing though,

909
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: that like it has to because the way the Freedom

910
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: Caucus sees this and the way Republicans see this is

911
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: that they're one point of leverage when you have the

912
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: sprawling administrative state that overwhelmingly leans democratic. You can debate

913
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: whether that means it leans left or not, but it

914
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly leans democratic, mostly based here in Washington, d C.

915
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 1: And the wealthy, Democratic leaning suburbs, and so they're one

916
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: point of leverage. They feel like in a government like

917
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: that is the perse strings, and if you control the House,

918
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: even barely, you control the purse strings. And that means

919
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: the only thing you can do for a Republican base

920
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: that feels like the government, not even just Republicans, independence

921
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: those sort of blue collar Trump voters who voted for

922
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: Obama on the basis of hope and change and then

923
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: voted for Trump on the basis of making America great again,

924
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: which is also kind of the same hope and change

925
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: type populace messaging. Those folks want to see. People in

926
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: Washington get like a dose of populism. That's what they

927
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: want to see. And so whatever form that takes, whether

928
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: it's real or not, I think Crystal makes some good

929
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,720
Speaker 1: points about how it's being feigned and exploited and used.

930
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 1: This is how Republicans say, this is the only thing

931
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: we can do right now. Our hands are tied. There's

932
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: nothing we can do at the EPA, there's nothing we

933
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: can do at OSHA, there's nothing we can do on X, Y,

934
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: and Z. This is one thing that we can do.

935
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: And so they're saying this is our lever this is

936
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: the button that can be pushed, and it's not going

937
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: to go well for them if it's cutting Social Security

938
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: and care. Right on that point, it feels like they're

939
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: already bungling the politics of it, like that Trump showed

940
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: them that the move on this issue is to say

941
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: that you're not going to cut in times social Security,

942
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: in particular Medicare. I think there's still room even in

943
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: a Trump coalition to go after to go after Medicaid.

944
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: But you don't want to say that you're the party

945
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: that's going after Social Security and Medicare. No. I thought

946
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: Trump was pretty clear about that. No, they're absolutely bungling

947
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: the politics of it. And Paul Ryan worked on this

948
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: for forever. He had all of these like really wonky

949
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: plans to deal with entitlements, because it's absolutely true that

950
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: if you're worried about the debt and the deficit, you

951
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: have to be worried about entitlements. It's the biggest chunk

952
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: of government spending. Basically, people think our defense budget is

953
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: extremely high. It is, but our spending on entitlements is

954
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: like way higher than that. And so, yeah, there's an

955
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: argument that it's a very real substance of issue that

956
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: some of the inflation that we're suffering from now is

957
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: because we run such a high debt. That's an argument

958
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: people make. And so if you believe that you have

959
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: to deal with it, then hey, but oh my gosh,

960
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: running straight into cutting social security magine like this is

961
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: what Blake Masters had a real problem with because Rick

962
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 1: Scott put it in his plan and then a bunch

963
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: of Republican candidates had to answer for it in states

964
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: with high populations of people who rely on social security,

965
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: Arizona for instance, being one of those. And so yeah,

966
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: if you if you're going to run headfirst into this,

967
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: you need to be speaking of ab testing, like you

968
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: really shouldn't have tested something here seems like it was tested. Yeah,

969
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: And so there was a House Republican on Fox the

970
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: other day, was it Jeff Duncan, I forget who it

971
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: was saying like military, Yeah, sure, but we got to

972
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 1: focus on entitlements. When when that sort of thing happens,

973
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: do people on the right in your world like freak out,

974
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: Like hey, get back on message here, like why are you,

975
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 1: like why are you kind of validating the worst fears

976
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: of the public that Republicans actually, as soon as they

977
00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: get into power, they're going to cut sole security, medicare. Well,

978
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: that's that's so interesting because during the Tea Party era

979
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: it was the opposite. You had this chunk of the

980
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: Republican base that was like, hell yeah, entitlement cuts, the

981
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: country is you know, on the wrong track, et cetera,

982
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: et cetera, and you know there's the free loading component

983
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: and all of that, and it was popular messaging. Now

984
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 1: even the populist right is like, WHOA, can't be doing that,

985
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: because I think there's a new awareness on the level

986
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 1: of suffering that a lot of the folks who maybe

987
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: want to go right into entitlements, social scurity and medicay whatever,

988
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: they probably don't have such a clear vantage point, they

989
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:34,879
Speaker 1: don't probably don't have as much contact with the level

990
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,479
Speaker 1: of suffering that exists among the American population. Two things

991
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: can be true. You know, dealing with entitlements might be important,

992
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: but dealing with entitlements right now is not acceptable. I

993
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: mean there's just no acceptable humane way on the table

994
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: or policy on the table from Republicans right now to

995
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: deal with that. Yeah, I think Trump at one of

996
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: his rallies could look out at his audience and say,

997
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: these are not the people that are going to necessarily

998
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: benefit if I cut social security, medicare looking at that

999
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: crowd When Paul Ryan is in a room, he's looking

1000
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 1: at it around a table or around a dinner table.

1001
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: Every single one of those people would benefit from that.

1002
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think you have different just different audiences

1003
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: that people understand. And you can't make the Paul Ryan

1004
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: argument that folks from all different socioeconomic backgrounds are going

1005
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: to benefit from entitlement cuts because he like, that's an

1006
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: argument that he would make that is so tonally off base.

1007
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: It's just impossible. To me. We love getting a lower sociality.

1008
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't wait. And again that's the fault of the

1009
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: Republican Party for not coming up with policies that actually

1010
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: really are able to deal with things like inflation, to

1011
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: deal with things like deficit whatever and also be humane.

1012
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: There's just nothing on the table, and that's why I

1013
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: think it's completely reckless and responsible to run headfirst into

1014
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: these conversations without having a way to deal with it

1015
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: that is not going to put vulnerable people at risk,

1016
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: because that's exactly what we'd do. And that's why things

1017
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: like Mint the Coin, which are populist and fun in nature,

1018
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: are going to as time gets on, moves on, get

1019
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: more and more traction. So what else you're looking at today?

1020
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: What's your point? All right? Well, speaking of the internet,

1021
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: later this month, a January sixth defendant named David Ryan

1022
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 1: will be on trial here in Washington, DC. His case

1023
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: is not a sympathetic one, but that's really the point.

1024
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: Power grabs succeed by picking low hanging fruit, and this

1025
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: particular power grab is happening very fast. Wired brought attention

1026
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: to Ryan's case in late November, noting how a filing

1027
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: quote shows that Google initially identified five thousand, seven hundred

1028
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 1: and twenty three devices as being in or near the

1029
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: US capital during the January sixth riot. After three years,

1030
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: roughly nine hundred and fifty people have been arrested on

1031
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: j six related charges, while the FBI says it's still

1032
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 1: looking for some three hundred and fifty individuals. Again, that's

1033
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: compared to a roughly fifty seven one hundred device dragnet.

1034
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: The Justice Department has said somewhere between two thousand and

1035
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: twenty five hundred people entered the capital that day. ABC

1036
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: News claims ten thousand people were on capital grounds during

1037
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: this crucial seven hour period. Back in twenty twenty one,

1038
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 1: Wired found quote forty five federal criminal cases that cited

1039
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 1: Google geolocation data to place suspects inside the US Capital

1040
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: on January sixth, including at least six where the identity

1041
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: of the suspect appears to have been unknown to the

1042
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: FBI prior to the geofence warrant. Here's what the government's

1043
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: criminal complaint against Rhine says. Quote. According to records obtained

1044
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: through a search warrant served on Google, a mobile device

1045
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: associated with phone number that's Ryan's number subscribed to by

1046
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: Ryan was present at the US Capital on January sixth,

1047
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. In this case, Google location data shows

1048
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: that a device associated with that number was within or

1049
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: around the US Capital on January sixth, twenty twenty one,

1050
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: between the time of two twenty four pm and four

1051
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,720
Speaker 1: forty seven pm. Also, that's in addition actually to information

1052
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: that was gleaned from a search warrant served on Verizon.

1053
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: An acquaintance of Ryan's flagged him to law enforcement after

1054
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: his wife. Ryan's wife posted on Facebook that he entered

1055
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: the Capitol. Court documents say Capitol police found two knives

1056
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: and pepper spray on Ryan after putting plastic cuffs on him,

1057
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: but he was told to leave and then someone later

1058
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: cut the cuffs off again. Not a sympathetic case. Ryan's

1059
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: lawyer filed a motion to suppress evidence from the warrant,

1060
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: writing quote, the geofriend's warrant was an unconstitutional search that

1061
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: intruded upon mister Ryan's reasonable expectation of privacy in his

1062
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: Google data. This was a general warrant, fatally overbroad and

1063
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: devoid of particularity, and therefore impermissible under the Fourth Amendment.

1064
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: As a result, this Court should suppress the results of

1065
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: the geofense warrant, including all of the fruits thereof, so

1066
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: things obtained on the basis of the geofense warrant. The

1067
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: Government's response to that motion and defense of the warrant

1068
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: and is instructive because it is so wrong. By the way,

1069
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: that was that motion of suppress was written by a

1070
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: public defender, as Michael Tracy has pointed out, and it's

1071
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: a pretty impressive overview of Fourth Amendment violations. Wired's report

1072
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: quoted University of Utah law professor Matthew Toxin, who explained,

1073
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: when it comes to geofense warrants quotes quote, some courts

1074
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: have said they are valid, some have said they're overbroad

1075
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: and sweep up too many innocent people. We are still

1076
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: in the very early stages of this. In this case, though,

1077
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: Tosin said, unlike a geofense wearn't from a bank robbery,

1078
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: the people in this location are all likely to be

1079
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: engaged in at least a low level criminal trespass, and

1080
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: in some cases worse. There's a stronger than usual probable

1081
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: cause argument in favor of the government here well. Wired

1082
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: then added a comment from American University professor Andrew Ferguson,

1083
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: who agreed with that assessment, but said that worries me

1084
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: because the January sixth cases are going to be used

1085
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: to build a doctrine that will essentially enable police to

1086
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: find almost anyone with the cell phone or a smart

1087
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: divis in ways that we as a society haven't quite

1088
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: grasped yet. That is going to undermine the work of journalists,

1089
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: it's going to undermine political dissenters, and it's going to

1090
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: harm women who are trying to get abortion services. So

1091
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: Toxin then expects appeals, he says, predicting Ryan's situation, quote

1092
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: is going to be very high level, high profile case,

1093
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: likely to generate a major precedent out of the Appeals Court,

1094
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: if not the Supreme Court. Journalists also aren't super sympathetic

1095
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: these days. But say, like me, you were reporting on

1096
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: January sixth from the Capitol grounds, trying to document the

1097
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: truth of what happened. While was happening, the geofens weren't

1098
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: may well have swept my information up, along with information

1099
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: of other journalists. Perhaps that seems harmless what could be done?

1100
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: Of course, when it comes to our powerful federal government,

1101
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: the mind actually reels with possibilities. But that's not even

1102
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: the point. The right to privacy is a fundamental pillar

1103
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: of every person's relationship with their government, and the boundaries

1104
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: of that right are being erased and blurred under our

1105
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: noses in real time. It's in the government's interest to

1106
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: do all of that erasing by setting precedent on cases

1107
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: related to unsympathetic open and shut clate cases like rhinds.

1108
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: But that's exactly when the rest of us should be

1109
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: on highlert. So back in November, Elon Musk announced that

1110
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: full self driving would be available for Tesla owners throughout

1111
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: North America. A few months after a few hours after that,

1112
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: this happened. And if we can roll the footage that

1113
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: my colleague can Clippensteinn obtained. This is a through an

1114
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: open records request he obtained this video. You can see

1115
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: the Tesla on the upper part of this video. If

1116
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: you're listening, a Tesla just stalled on the road, and

1117
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: now all of these other cars are starting to pile

1118
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: up behind it, which no excuse for rear ending. No, yeah,

1119
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: that's a good point. Even if there's a self driving

1120
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: car that stops suddenly in front of you, that's why

1121
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 1: you've got to be at least two seconds behind. I

1122
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: was just saying this before we started. But for the

1123
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: life of me, I cannot understand why Tesla went with

1124
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: the name full self driving mode. I understand the benefit

1125
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,479
Speaker 1: of having something that you can call full self driving mode,

1126
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: but if it is not full self driving mode from

1127
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 1: a legal standpoint, from a public relations standpoint, it seems

1128
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: like it was so easily going to backfire. And I

1129
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: understand like there are always technological change, especially on the

1130
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: level that could make a huge environmental impact, for instance,

1131
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 1: like Tesla potentially, although there are a million problems with

1132
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: that too, start talking about rare minerals and everything. Obviously

1133
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: that it's always difficult to make these major leaps, and

1134
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: there are always tragedies. I mean, you just never due

1135
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: it without the tragedies. You work to minimize them. So

1136
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: we can imagine that Tesla is involved in all of

1137
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: those efforts to minimize the cost of this leap. But

1138
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: calling something full self driving mode and then releasing it

1139
01:01:54,680 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: and within hours having this happen just incredible a business decision.

1140
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: And if we can put up this tear sheet from

1141
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: from the intercept or from Ken Klippenstein's story, he quotes

1142
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: Musk who had said last year he said of full

1143
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: self driving, he said, it's an essential feature for Tesla development.

1144
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: He said, quote it's really the difference between Tesla being

1145
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,439
Speaker 1: worth a lot of money or worth basically zero. And

1146
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: you gotta love Elon Musk for just being blunt and

1147
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: laying it out in black and white. But what what

1148
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 1: he's saying very clearly is that once we're competing with

1149
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: all these other electric car companies, once everybody has access

1150
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: to the same to the same minerals, our first mover

1151
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: advantage might dissolve unless unless they've built up some type

1152
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: of infrastructure around charging stations or something else. But as

1153
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: a car company, it's going to be difficult for them

1154
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: to compete with the action, with the with the legacy

1155
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: automakers once once they're up and running. His differentiator was

1156
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: always going to be quote full self driving, right but

1157
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: as you said right there, as you said, place, what's it? Wamu,

1158
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: what's the weimu? Like, they're not. They don't use that term.

1159
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: Nobody else is using that term anymore because they want

1160
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: to say basically driver assists. Now it is full self driving.

1161
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: Sometimes when it takes over. There's there was this harrowing

1162
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: footage from India. If we can roll this this vo

1163
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: where this guy pulls, you see him pull over and

1164
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: then boom, China, boom, all of a sudden just takes off. Yeah,

1165
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: just flying on the road. I think at least two

1166
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: people died as a result of this, and you can

1167
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: see him just kind of veering in and out. Just

1168
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 1: you know, you'd much rather get have it stop on

1169
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: a bridge and cause an eight car pile up that

1170
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: nobody died in. Uh, then you would. Then you would

1171
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: have it just accelerate unexpectedly. So in some ways that

1172
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: was full self driving. It wasn't safe driving. Yeah, and listen,

1173
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: the old, outdated car technology that is Tesla is trying

1174
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: to replace as all kinds of functioning issues as well.

1175
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: You can point to basically any technology that has dramatically

1176
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: changed him in life for the better. And I do

1177
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: not deny that this is remarkable technology. I think it's

1178
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:12,439
Speaker 1: important to acknowledge that it is remarkable technology, and Elon

1179
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: Musk is working on some important and remarkable technology. There's

1180
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: always going to be problems. That doesn't mean, though, that

1181
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: you can call things full self driving mode and get

1182
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: away with having problems like this and get away with

1183
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: There have been stories of people who it was a

1184
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 1: TikToker who put himself in the backseat of the Tesla

1185
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,919
Speaker 1: and let it drive itself. I believe, Yeah, I believe

1186
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 1: it was a Tesla, and the people who have said,

1187
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: you know, I was probably driving drunk, but my tesla

1188
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 1: took me home and all of that stuff. There's so

1189
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 1: it's just happening so quickly, and I think we take

1190
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: for granted the public safety that we have, the public

1191
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: safety infrastructure that we've developed over the last hundred years.

1192
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 1: This is likely a shock to that system. So the

1193
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: point that the must defenders on this do have is

1194
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: that people are not good drivers either. That's really so

1195
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 1: strong counterpoint, especially drunk people like you, just like you

1196
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: just talked about, which we would. So anyway, I think

1197
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 1: everybody should go back to manual. Then all the cars

1198
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: should be stick shift. So my opinion here isn't even

1199
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: worth anything. Uh So the House House House Republicans with

1200
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: their with their first bill. Let's roll Lauren Bober tell

1201
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: you what she's what she's up to here. Hey, everyone,

1202
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: we are back in session here in Washington, DC, and

1203
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm about to cast my vote for our very first

1204
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: bill this Congress. It's two pages, not thousands, it has

1205
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: one subject and zero earmarks. Oh and it'll help stop

1206
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: the harassment of the American citizens by prohibiting those eighty

1207
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: seven thousand i RS agents from ever even being hired.

1208
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: That's conservative governance at its finest, more freedom less government,

1209
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: and we are just getting started. Okay, that's like bad

1210
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: high school theater. I get it, and like it would

1211
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: be much easier to make fun of that and spend

1212
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:08,160
Speaker 1: the whole time talking about the circus in Congress right

1213
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: now than acknowledge I thought. I thought that was fine

1214
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 1: as a performance. It's typical Congress performance. Yes, But all

1215
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: that is to say, I think she's talking about something

1216
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: very serious. And one of the reasons we wanted to

1217
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: talk about this is because there's a debate raging both

1218
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 1: the left and right right now about IRS about IRS funding,

1219
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: because there's this intense, I think point that the IRS

1220
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 1: needs more money because you cannot audit high income earners

1221
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: if you don't have a robust and powerful IRS. Meanwhile,

1222
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: let's say this is last year, and this kind of

1223
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: confirms that point. The odds of millionaire was audited by

1224
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: an IRS revenue agent was just one point one percent,

1225
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: whereas the taxpayer class with unbelievably high audit rates five

1226
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 1: and a half times virtually everyone else. We're low income

1227
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 1: wage earners taking the earned income credit that would be

1228
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 1: your argument for why, for instance, the IRS needs more funding.

1229
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 1: I imagine, right, It's fascinating to me to think about

1230
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: so many people kind of who are persuaded that this

1231
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: is going to be working against them, as middle class

1232
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 1: or working class people. So if you look at the

1233
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: current stats and you see that the working poor are

1234
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 1: the ones who are overwhelmingly and disproportionately getting audited, and

1235
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: then you take from that we should we should defend

1236
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 1: the status quo, like that's the system that we're going

1237
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 1: to stand up for. Then you're just not to me,

1238
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: you're just not thinking it through because if you now,

1239
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: I understand what they're saying, they're thinking like, well, working

1240
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: class people disproportionately are getting audited. If you give them

1241
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 1: more money, they're going to continue to disproportionately audit working

1242
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 1: class people, and it's only going to be much worse.

1243
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: But that's just not the case. Like a if you

1244
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: just look at it from a cynical perspective, there's only

1245
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: so much blood you can squeeze from that stone. Like

1246
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: the purpose of this for Democrats was to raise more

1247
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: revenue from the wealthy, because that's where the money is.

1248
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 1: Who was it James who said, you know, they asked him,

1249
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 1: why you know, why do you why do you rob banks?

1250
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: It's like, well, that that's where the money is. And

1251
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,759
Speaker 1: so if you're asked, Democrats, why why are you taxing

1252
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 1: the rich? Why why you? Because that's because that's where

1253
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 1: the money is. And so it actually just it wouldn't

1254
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: make sense as a matter of kind of policy or

1255
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: politics for Democrats to have thrown a whole bunch of

1256
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: money at the I R S in order to get

1257
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 1: them to audit the working class more. That's not it's

1258
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 1: just not where the money is. Well, it's interesting because

1259
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: I think there's evidence that suggests without higher audits on

1260
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 1: the working class or the middle class, I should say,

1261
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 1: you can't make up the amount of money that is

1262
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 1: projected to be made up with these increased budgets. If

1263
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 1: you if you throw more money at RSS Democrats propose,

1264
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 1: for instance, you're not going to be able to raise

1265
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: the projection without also extracting more money from the middle class. Now,

1266
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,759
Speaker 1: if people are not paying taxes that they owe, sure,

1267
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: I mean we absolutely should hold people to account for

1268
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: that money. I think the middle class is already over

1269
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 1: taxed in this country. I think audits are disproportionately expensive

1270
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: for the middle class, and the Tax Foundation, which is

1271
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,719
Speaker 1: right leaning, they project most of the additional audits will

1272
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 1: be executed on those making between seventy five k and

1273
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand annually. So depending on how many kids

1274
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: you have, the size of your household, that could be

1275
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: anywhere in the middle class to upper middle class range.

1276
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 1: But the Senate also rejected an amendment from Mike Crapo

1277
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 1: that would have limited audits and the enhanced enforcement to

1278
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 1: taxpayers and companies that are making more than four hundred

1279
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 1: thousand dollars annually. Every Democratic senator both voted against that amendment.

1280
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: And I think that's because you can't make up that projection.

1281
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: You can't hit that projection. Limit it to high income earners. Well,

1282
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: didn't they keep it at a at a lower level,

1283
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 1: keep it constant, say no, you can't do four hundred

1284
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 1: is pretty high. But I believe the legislation we could

1285
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: I'll look into this afterwards, did say that below a

1286
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: certain threshold you couldn't do. You can't do more. You

1287
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 1: can't you know, they have to report back and there

1288
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 1: can have been more audits as a result of this.

1289
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: But going going back to our conversation earlier with Representative

1290
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 1: Khana and automation. The real goal here for Democrats is

1291
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 1: getting the computer system up better. So so, because this

1292
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 1: is not something that you should actually need people with

1293
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 1: pencils going over paper, like you should be able to

1294
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 1: have the IRS collect all of the tax returns, analyze

1295
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 1: them and say, oh, here's one, here's one, here's one,

1296
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 1: here's one, here's one, here's one. These guys are pride lying,

1297
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: and I think we're If you can actually get some

1298
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 1: investment in the technology, you won't need those eighty seven

1299
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 1: thousand agents, which actually would then free them up to

1300
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: do what is this, Jeff duncan do we have D

1301
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 1: three here? This is we have this sot from the

1302
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 1: house floor. Well, we'll talk about that one. Actually, we'll

1303
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: talk about this first and then we'll cald you in

1304
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 1: suspense on this. Everyone's wading with beta breath. Yes, and so.

1305
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 1: One of the concessions that the holdouts, one from Kevin McCarthy,

1306
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: was an aspirational vote on the floor. Sounds familiar, uh,

1307
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: this one, though not for Medicare for all. It is

1308
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 1: for abolishing the I R S, getting rid of the

1309
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,720
Speaker 1: income tax, the death tax, the gift tax and replacing it,

1310
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: I think with a twenty three percent consumption tax. How

1311
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: is is this a like how big a base is

1312
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: there for this among Republican voters? Is this something that

1313
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:56,679
Speaker 1: like what why? Why? Why'd they ask for this? Well? Yeah,

1314
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean I think we should say, like with the

1315
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: I R S legislation and that Bobert was talking about,

1316
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: this is dead on arrival in the Senate. This is

1317
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:04,920
Speaker 1: is not going anywhere. When we were talking about the

1318
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 1: Crapo amendment that was on the won't pass the House

1319
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: either properly. Right, what do you think? I don't know,

1320
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 1: that's actually a very good question. But like the crape

1321
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: Amendment was on the infrastructure, it was on the inflation,

1322
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act, and you're right that it was.

1323
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 1: There's a there's a an order from the Treasury Department

1324
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: to ensure that audit rates of people making less than

1325
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: foreigner under thousand dollars a year won't rise. And so

1326
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 1: the I R S is basically saying, trust us, we

1327
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,160
Speaker 1: won't do that. Yeah us. So that is it like

1328
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 1: that they didn't they didn't put it in a law, right,

1329
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 1: so that mechanism is there that said I don't know.

1330
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is an interesting question because

1331
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,799
Speaker 1: one thing that I've heard more and more from Freedom

1332
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: Caucus types is that and I think it's correct that

1333
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: a smaller government is less mechanism for tyranny. Right that

1334
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 1: we've seen overreach on behalf of the federal government, whether

1335
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 1: it's the FBI targeting people, whether it's the I r

1336
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:02,679
Speaker 1: S targeting people. We've seen that happen, and a smaller

1337
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 1: government sort of it takes the teeth out of tyranny.

1338
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 1: And so I think that that's the sort of messaging

1339
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 1: that's being worked on right now. I do think there's

1340
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: an appetite for that. But Democrats are really powerful. Rebuttal

1341
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:20,120
Speaker 1: which is people need these various services and rely on

1342
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,760
Speaker 1: it and just sort of yanking the floor out from

1343
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 1: other people from under people is cruel. And my count argument,

1344
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 1: which would be would be hard to put into a

1345
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: thirty second commercial though, would be that tyranny exists as

1346
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 1: a thing in all societies and that if you let's

1347
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 1: say you let's say you get rid of a tyrannical

1348
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 1: federal government like that means it's only going to be

1349
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 1: replaced by the vactrum is going to be filled by

1350
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 1: corporate tyranny. And I've been making that argument for twenty years,

1351
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 1: and it was often landing flat everywhere except on the right,

1352
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:57,679
Speaker 1: except for the kind of the libertarian right, but even

1353
01:13:57,680 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 1: a lot of there's, you know, a wing of the

1354
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: libertarian right. It's very pro corporate power because that's that's freedom,

1355
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 1: the freedom for that corporation to do it ever at once.

1356
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 1: But now I think with the way that big tech

1357
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 1: has taken such a kind of dominant role in our

1358
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 1: in our discourse, I think people on the writer are

1359
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: starting to understand that, oh, there are tiers. There are

1360
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 1: tyrannies that are not just government tyranny, and government tyranny

1361
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: has within it checks and balances the potential of democratic control. Uh.

1362
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: And so what I would say is fight fight that,

1363
01:14:29,040 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, you know, fight fight for the ability of

1364
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 1: a of a citizenry to control its destiny through its government,

1365
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:40,839
Speaker 1: rather than destroying the government replacing it with corporate tyranny,

1366
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 1: which then you don't have any mechanism other than complaining

1367
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 1: on Twitter or like we're trying to maybe not even that,

1368
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 1: or buying the company. You can try to buy the company.

1369
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: We'll see how that goes. Yeah, I think the problem

1370
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: right now is the government tyranny and corporate tyranny working

1371
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 1: in concert, colluding against average Americans in a really dangerous way.

1372
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: And my argument would be that it doesn't take a

1373
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: big government to restrain the power of corporations. It takes

1374
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:07,120
Speaker 1: some really basic laws. But when you have a corporate

1375
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 1: capture of government and campaigns because of our campaign financing system,

1376
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: then it does make it really hard even if you

1377
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 1: have basic laws on the books that restrain market power

1378
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 1: to do the right thing. So, yeah, we're in need

1379
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:22,639
Speaker 1: of some serious changes. But that's part of the reason

1380
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 1: I want to do that debate was precisely because I

1381
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 1: think this is a very interesting case study in that

1382
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 1: exact question. As the right sort of reevaluates its take

1383
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 1: on government power, and as the left reevaluates when you're

1384
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 1: just talking to Rocana about the Twitter files reevaluates government power,

1385
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 1: what's the balance? So I think this raises good questions

1386
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:48,080
Speaker 1: if you can automate the audits. Here are a couple

1387
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 1: ideas from the House Republicans on the floor about what

1388
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 1: they could do with these eighty seven thousand agents. Just

1389
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: Chairman McGovern to recommender McGovern mentioned the irs bill coming up.

1390
01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 1: Let me just point out we need to resend that

1391
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 1: eighty seven dollars and IRS agents. You know what that equates.

1392
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 1: Do two hundred new IRS agents in every congressional district

1393
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 1: in this country. That's seventeen hundred and forty new IRS

1394
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 1: agents at every state for one purpose to go after

1395
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 1: small business. Is hard work in Americans to try to

1396
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 1: raise money to pay for reckless spending. Reckless spending this

1397
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 1: cost thirty one trillion dollars in debt in this nation.

1398
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 1: This is the right thing to do. I'll tell you what.

1399
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 1: We could repurpose those agents to the southern border, or

1400
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 1: we could repurpose them and let them build the Keystone

1401
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,639
Speaker 1: XL pipeline. You know what, There was about estimated sixty

1402
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 1: one thousand lost jobs with the Keystone XL pipeline went bid.

1403
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,320
Speaker 1: Administration canceled that project. But yet we turn around and

1404
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 1: government hires eighty seven thousand new IRS agents to go

1405
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 1: after your constituents. In mind, and if the big concern

1406
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 1: of the Keystone pipeline is that there are going to

1407
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 1: be oil spills as a result of shoddy construction, I'm

1408
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 1: not sure that having a bunch of IRSs they clip

1409
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 1: with either one building it. Well, the same thing with

1410
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:52,720
Speaker 1: the southern border. I know we have to wrap but

1411
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 1: like the last, do you know what's not going to

1412
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: fix the problem at the southern border. More manpower there,

1413
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 1: it might help a little bit, but unless you fix

1414
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: asylum laws, which our government is utterly incapable of even

1415
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 1: like thinking about addressing, there's nothing. He might he might

1416
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: be joking, but at the very beginning of the Biden

1417
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: administration they sent notes out to the entire federal government

1418
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 1: and said, we need people at these shelters to volunteer, like,

1419
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 1: volunteer your time, and so people that say the Bureau

1420
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: of Indian Affairs where like for a month would go

1421
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 1: down to a shelter down down at the border just

1422
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 1: to be a body to try to take care of

1423
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: this flood that was coming in. But you're right, we

1424
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 1: do have to wrap up. NeXT's going to be Congressman Rocana.

1425
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: Stick around for that. We're joined now by a Congressman Rocanna.

1426
01:17:40,439 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: He's going to be and we could throw up this

1427
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 1: first element here. He's going to be talking to us

1428
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 1: about his fascinating, really forward thinking bill that that he's

1429
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: written with Senator Marco Rubio which is interesting in its

1430
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:56,439
Speaker 1: own right. The legislation itself is interesting basically developing practically

1431
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 1: for the first time American industrial policy. We want to

1432
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: want to get to that in a moment. We're also

1433
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: going to talk about Aaron Swartz and his life and

1434
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: legacy and relatively. I want to start by asking you

1435
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 1: about the tragic death yesterday of Blake Hounschel, who was

1436
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 1: a New York Times reporter who you had worked with

1437
01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: a little bit. Tell us a little bit about you know,

1438
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 1: how you got to know Blake. It was devastating and shocking.

1439
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: I mean I had sat down with Blake actually when

1440
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: my book came out, and we spent an hour and

1441
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 1: a half, two hours talking about philosophy, talking about economics.

1442
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: He was someone so well read, so thoughtful, and he

1443
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 1: had texted me in December saying let's get together in

1444
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 1: the new year. Just totally shocking. My heart goes out

1445
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:47,759
Speaker 1: to his family. He had children, and he was really

1446
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 1: one of the thinkers in journalism, right and I think

1447
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 1: that I think that's well said. He did stand apart

1448
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: in that way. He did. I mean, he was at

1449
01:18:58,280 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: the New York Times, but he had also a little

1450
01:18:59,920 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: bit of an independence he had his own newsletter. He

1451
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 1: do longer form pieces. It wasn't always for him about

1452
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 1: the news of the day, it was about ideas. He

1453
01:19:08,479 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 1: did this wonderful piece on Jamie Raskin during the time

1454
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 1: where Jamie lost his son, and of course a deep

1455
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 1: irony there with the struggles that Jamie son had, and

1456
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,360
Speaker 1: it seems that Blake had yeah right. His family said

1457
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,799
Speaker 1: that he'd lost his battle with depression, lifelong battle with depression.

1458
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 1: Same with same with Raskin son and other people. And

1459
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 1: that brings salsa to Aaron Swartz, who also had, you know,

1460
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 1: depressive tendencies there. And I think there was a kind

1461
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: of flat There was a flattening in the wake of

1462
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 1: his suicide back in twenty thirteen when he was facing

1463
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 1: this relentless and unforgivable to me, you know, prosecution at

1464
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:53,360
Speaker 1: the hands of the US Attorney and her deputy Stephen

1465
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: Hamon there. But it's a more complicated story than just that.

1466
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: But I wanted to add ask you, you know what

1467
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,760
Speaker 1: errand means to you, and to back into him and say,

1468
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:08,240
Speaker 1: when did you arrive out in the Silicon Valley area,

1469
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:12,160
Speaker 1: and you know, how have you seen kind of the

1470
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: culture around their change from the kind of kind of

1471
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 1: pioneering openness and hostility to greed that A represented hostility

1472
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:23,599
Speaker 1: to power and hostility. Agreed like he I didn't even

1473
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 1: mention this at the top of the show, but he

1474
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 1: helped develop when he was thirteen and fourteen RSS feed

1475
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:31,679
Speaker 1: somebody like that can go out there and just print

1476
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,320
Speaker 1: money in Silicon Valley, right, and he actively fought against that.

1477
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,840
Speaker 1: Is is there some of that still in Silicon Valley

1478
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 1: or when did you see it start to change? So

1479
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: I appreciate your writing on Erin because his prosecution was

1480
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 1: totally unjustified. They went after him on a computer statue

1481
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:56,120
Speaker 1: because he was basically making information public in the public domain.

1482
01:20:56,439 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 1: Whatever you think of the law, it certainly wasn't criminal,

1483
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 1: and that was one of the causes I think of

1484
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 1: his taking his life. I went out there. I went

1485
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 1: out there probably because of Larry Lessig, and Larry Lessig

1486
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:11,599
Speaker 1: is a great scholar on Stunt carbla mentor of Aarans.

1487
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:14,639
Speaker 1: He was teaching at Stanford. I had done some research

1488
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 1: for him. He said, well, the place to be is

1489
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. It's such an interesting place in thinking about

1490
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:21,720
Speaker 1: the issues of the future and when I went out

1491
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 1: in two thousand and one, it was still a place

1492
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 1: where you had a lot of iconoclastic people, people who

1493
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: didn't see themselves as the winners. Actually they were the

1494
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 1: folks who didn't make it in San Francisco at the

1495
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 1: banks and at the traditional firms, and they had kind

1496
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 1: of come down to Silicon Valley where they are all

1497
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 1: these immigrants and people's names you couldn't pronounce. And there's

1498
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:44,439
Speaker 1: still an element of that. I mean, we think of

1499
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley as just Apple, Google. There's still that counter culture,

1500
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:54,160
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial spirit, but it's been dominated now by some of

1501
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 1: these companies that are the winners, that are no longer

1502
01:21:57,640 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 1: the upstarts, and I think they have to have much

1503
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:03,759
Speaker 1: more serious reflection about what it means to have power.

1504
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:07,640
Speaker 1: They're no longer the challengers of power. They are the

1505
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,599
Speaker 1: people in power. Well, the drip drip with the Twitter files.

1506
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 1: One of the early Twitter file documents showed an exchange

1507
01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:16,920
Speaker 1: that you had with someone at Twitter. I think it

1508
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 1: was an executive at Twitter about the First Amendment about

1509
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 1: free speech, and it seems that mentality, that attitude that

1510
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:28,759
Speaker 1: you were trying to impress upon him. That's absolutely essential

1511
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: if you're running a speech platform. Sort of lost on

1512
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:35,400
Speaker 1: these corporate giants. Twitter has become a corporate giant started

1513
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:37,400
Speaker 1: by somebody like Jack Dorsey who used to have more

1514
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 1: of that open source like countercultural mentality. Where did that change?

1515
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,400
Speaker 1: How did that change? How did we go from point

1516
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 1: A to point B where you're the only one on

1517
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 1: the left standing up in that moment for the right

1518
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:53,599
Speaker 1: position there? You know, I think it was an over

1519
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,680
Speaker 1: correction to twenty sixteen. These platforms got beaten up in

1520
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen saying there was four and interference, they allow

1521
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 1: all this hate to proliferate. And so their reaction to

1522
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 1: that was we're going to have content moderation. And some

1523
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,120
Speaker 1: of the content moderation, in my view, is justified for

1524
01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:17,719
Speaker 1: these forms, but they in doing that didn't really think

1525
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:21,040
Speaker 1: through what all the principles should be. And content moderation

1526
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't mean taking down the New York Post. It shouldn't

1527
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:29,280
Speaker 1: mean not sharing an article by a journalist. So yeah,

1528
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:31,639
Speaker 1: they have the right to do that, they're not the government,

1529
01:23:32,160 --> 01:23:36,679
Speaker 1: but it violates the sense of open, robust debate that's

1530
01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 1: the whollmark of our country. And so to turn into

1531
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:43,320
Speaker 1: your legislation with Marco Rubio. So, first of all, and

1532
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:46,599
Speaker 1: this could be a challenge for audience needs a better

1533
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:50,600
Speaker 1: it does. It's called, I means straightforward. It's called the

1534
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 1: National Development Strategy and Coordination Act. But you know that

1535
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:56,800
Speaker 1: doesn't beat the Patriot Act, or you know, just call

1536
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,439
Speaker 1: it the Patriot Acts called the Patriot Yeah, just call

1537
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:02,240
Speaker 1: it the Patriot more patriotic Patriot Act will be a

1538
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 1: Patriot Act. Replace. You said not need clever names, right,

1539
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:08,880
Speaker 1: I mean FDR had the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and the

1540
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 1: War Production Board, which is partly a model, but FDR

1541
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 1: also was fighting World War Two and the Great Depression.

1542
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 1: In today's day and age, you need a good name.

1543
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 1: But look, Sarah, Rubio has been pretty forward thinking on

1544
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:23,439
Speaker 1: this in his own party. When you have some people

1545
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 1: in the Freedom Caucus basically not wanting to spend a dime,

1546
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 1: he's saying, no, we need to actually have the government

1547
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:33,559
Speaker 1: working with business, working with educational institutions to have a

1548
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 1: manufacturing production here. It was a colossal mistake to allow

1549
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:39,240
Speaker 1: it all to go to China. And we met, we

1550
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:41,839
Speaker 1: talked about me working with Caleb in his office. Caleb

1551
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 1: gets it. I mean, you know, I joke around that

1552
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:46,960
Speaker 1: I want to order a magnitude probably ten X or

1553
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 1: one hundred XS, and what Senator Rubia wants to spend.

1554
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 1: But the point is we both see the need for

1555
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:56,559
Speaker 1: the government to be involved in revitalizing production in this country,

1556
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: and can you take us through the guts of the

1557
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: bill basically exactly what the mechanism is to invigorate this

1558
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: industrial policy via this piece of legislation. So the legislation

1559
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 1: basically says, we have places in this country that have

1560
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 1: been gutted. Jobs have left, factory towns have been totally shuttered,

1561
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:16,760
Speaker 1: and we need massive economic development there. So we're going

1562
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 1: to create this Economic Development Council, like a National Security Council.

1563
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 1: It's going to look through research and what are the

1564
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,640
Speaker 1: places in America the need economic revitalization. What is the

1565
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 1: industry we can bring there, Not just semiconductor chips. We're

1566
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:34,800
Speaker 1: talking about steel, aluminum, textiles, masks. How do we do

1567
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 1: it so it's sustainable, and how can we have the

1568
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 1: financing for government purchasing for low interest loans for the

1569
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:44,760
Speaker 1: investment massive investment in the engineers or the trades that

1570
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 1: we'll need, and work with the private sector to rebuild

1571
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 1: these communities. It's almost, frankly like we saw after communism

1572
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,960
Speaker 1: in parts of Europe. There were places that were decimated

1573
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:00,720
Speaker 1: and there was an effort at economic redevelopment. We've never

1574
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 1: tried it. We went to these places that lost, factory

1575
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,599
Speaker 1: towns that lost. We've lost seventy thousand factories in this country.

1576
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:10,640
Speaker 1: And Fred Anderson in Indiana came up to me with

1577
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 1: a binder of forty factories that have shut down in

1578
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:15,639
Speaker 1: his town. And what do we say to these folks?

1579
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:20,040
Speaker 1: We said, here's your unemployment check, here's your trade adjustment assistance.

1580
01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 1: Now go fend for yourself. Did we ever even try

1581
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:25,240
Speaker 1: to say, we're going to rebuild your communities, We're going

1582
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: to partner with you to have new economic development. This

1583
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: is the central failure of American policy over the last

1584
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 1: forty years. Here's your unemployment check and here's your opioid prescription. Yeah.

1585
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:38,879
Speaker 1: The county. I grew up in the Kent County, Maryland,

1586
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:42,000
Speaker 1: over on the eastern shore. The biggest town in that

1587
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 1: county has about five thousand people, Chestertown, and the main

1588
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 1: employer there is a manufacturer, Dixon Dixon Valve and Coupling

1589
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:55,800
Speaker 1: they employ something like five hundred people in a town

1590
01:26:55,840 --> 01:27:01,840
Speaker 1: of five thousand. If that goes away, it just complete wreckage,

1591
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:05,879
Speaker 1: you get it. Yeah, it's it's just it's just completely

1592
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 1: wiped out. So what do you do about manufacturing facilities

1593
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 1: that are that still exist and are under a ton

1594
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 1: of pressure. And one of the reasons it's still there

1595
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 1: is that the family that owns it just has deep

1596
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: roots in the community and has resisted kind of profit

1597
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:26,479
Speaker 1: pressures to first go to the South, because that's the

1598
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:28,519
Speaker 1: that's the first place you go, the south of the

1599
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 1: United States, and then you go somewhere else, whether it's

1600
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:33,479
Speaker 1: you know, Central or South America or China in the

1601
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:37,639
Speaker 1: or elsewhere. Uh. They've resisted that. But at some point

1602
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 1: generations are going to pass down and somebody's going to

1603
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:41,920
Speaker 1: take over. It's going to say that's going to look

1604
01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:44,799
Speaker 1: at the numbers and say, this doesn't make sense anymore.

1605
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:48,439
Speaker 1: We love the Eastern Do they make valves and couplings? Yeah,

1606
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:52,040
Speaker 1: so a little so pieces for the economy, base based

1607
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 1: for the industrial economy, right, well, run right. I think

1608
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:58,160
Speaker 1: it's important that you focus on products like that because

1609
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: we talked about I was the author of semi cantor

1610
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: the chips manufacturing. But you can't put a semiconductor factory

1611
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: in every town in this country. You can't put a

1612
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 1: battery plan new battery plan in every town. We've got

1613
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 1: to talk about people making the gaskets, the textiles, the valves.

1614
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:15,599
Speaker 1: How do we keep that competitive? I'd say a few things.

1615
01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:19,639
Speaker 1: If they're critical supplies for the country. Have the government

1616
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 1: assist in some of the purchase agreements. Have the government

1617
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,640
Speaker 1: assist in the financing. But the biggest advantage we have

1618
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 1: is new technology. It's allowing for digital technology and AI

1619
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 1: is actually making it easier to produce. It's making us

1620
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 1: more productive, and the government should be assisting in having

1621
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,920
Speaker 1: that investment, both in the workforce and in the technology.

1622
01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:44,639
Speaker 1: You know who does this is Germany. I mean Germany

1623
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 1: has twenty percent manufacturing workforce and a lot of it's

1624
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:51,519
Speaker 1: specialty manufacturing. So I think there are ways that we

1625
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 1: can keep a lot of these factories open, and not

1626
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 1: every factory. I don't want to mislead people, but factories

1627
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 1: that can use new technology, new processes, the government as

1628
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 1: a partner, we can do this. Tyler Cowen Osler. He

1629
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:11,280
Speaker 1: had a really interesting post this week about how it

1630
01:29:11,320 --> 01:29:14,320
Speaker 1: may be unworkable chips legislation in the United States, for example,

1631
01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:17,839
Speaker 1: because of the qualifications of the American workforce overall, Who

1632
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:20,799
Speaker 1: do we have that's qualified enough to run at chips

1633
01:29:20,960 --> 01:29:25,439
Speaker 1: manufacturing place for instance? Does legislation like this need to

1634
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:29,200
Speaker 1: be coupled with legislation that also brings more immigrants in

1635
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 1: the United States that have qualifications to work on these projects,

1636
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 1: or do you think the American workforce as it is

1637
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 1: today is capable of plugging into an industrial policy like this.

1638
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 1: We need both. I mean, we need massive investment in

1639
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:49,240
Speaker 1: engineering in this country, software engineering, the trades, electricians, plumbers,

1640
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:52,160
Speaker 1: and we also need some immigration. I mean, a lot

1641
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:55,280
Speaker 1: of the production expertise right now is sitting in Taiwan,

1642
01:29:55,720 --> 01:29:58,519
Speaker 1: and it would be very hard to do without some

1643
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 1: of that immigration. But these are This is where I

1644
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:02,760
Speaker 1: think the debate in this country is flawed, where we're

1645
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:06,040
Speaker 1: putting blue collar workers against the PhDs. I mean, you

1646
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 1: could say we need more PhDs. We should celebrate college

1647
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:13,880
Speaker 1: education on math, science, engineering, and also celebrate the electricians,

1648
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 1: the plumbers, that trades people who we have not done

1649
01:30:18,280 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 1: enough in providing pathways for manufacturing and it's going to

1650
01:30:22,560 --> 01:30:26,160
Speaker 1: take all of us to actually re industrialize, both the

1651
01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:28,439
Speaker 1: sixty percent of folks who don't have a college degree

1652
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 1: and the advanced college graduates in science and technology. And

1653
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:35,559
Speaker 1: as you were talking about the way to save some

1654
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 1: of these manufacturing plants in the US, I'm thinking of

1655
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:42,320
Speaker 1: the five hundred employees who are working for Dixon. But

1656
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter name a plant around the country. Let's

1657
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:49,200
Speaker 1: say you can use automation and AI do some of

1658
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:50,880
Speaker 1: those people have to then worry that they're going to

1659
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:54,679
Speaker 1: be automated out. I know that as you've traveled the country,

1660
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:57,040
Speaker 1: you've written about this in your book, You've counted lots

1661
01:30:57,040 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: of fears about automation. People see that, and I think

1662
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 1: some ways it's a proxy for people's fears about the

1663
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:04,240
Speaker 1: uncertainty of the future. But in some ways it's real,

1664
01:31:04,439 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 1: like that they're seeing in the grocery store a home

1665
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 1: depot that you know now that there aren't check out

1666
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:11,719
Speaker 1: people like there used to be. So is there something

1667
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:16,120
Speaker 1: you're doing or trying to do that pairs the loss

1668
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 1: of jobs with a necessary expansion, Like in other words,

1669
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:21,040
Speaker 1: in order to get the investment, if you're going to

1670
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:23,519
Speaker 1: lay people off, you have to also then build another

1671
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 1: plant so that you're producing more. Because the world that's

1672
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 1: exactly there, needs more valves and coupling. That's all right,

1673
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 1: we need to stay flat. Well, I'd say there are

1674
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:32,840
Speaker 1: two points to it. You know, it used to be

1675
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,120
Speaker 1: a traditional steelbell had four thousand people. A minimal with

1676
01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:40,040
Speaker 1: more production has about fifteen hundred people. So as you

1677
01:31:40,160 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 1: have higher productivity, as you have new technology for a

1678
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:47,680
Speaker 1: particular product, it may mean less jobs. But if you

1679
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:52,000
Speaker 1: massively increase production, if you massively increase exports, then you

1680
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:55,080
Speaker 1: can have more jobs with the higher productivity. And that's

1681
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:57,960
Speaker 1: what we need to do. Plus if it's higher productivity,

1682
01:31:58,000 --> 01:31:59,680
Speaker 1: they need to be paid more, so you're having a

1683
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,800
Speaker 1: good momultiplier effect in the community. So I don't think

1684
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 1: you could be for American manufacturing big at superpower and

1685
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:08,960
Speaker 1: say we don't want technology, we don't want innovation and

1686
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:12,439
Speaker 1: manufacturing processes. That's selling the country a lie. You're not

1687
01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: going to be able to compete. But I think what

1688
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: we say is we can have these processes and massively

1689
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:21,400
Speaker 1: expand production so that ultimately we're going to increase jobs.

1690
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 1: And again a point to Germany, where twenty percent of

1691
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 1: their workforce is in manufacturing, so the automation actually hasn't

1692
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:31,880
Speaker 1: displaced German workers. Yeah, I was thinking recently about I'm

1693
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: from Wisconsin. Milwaukee Tools recently got I think some subsidies

1694
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 1: from the government to do to ramp up production actually

1695
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. I'm curious about your conversations with people in

1696
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:44,760
Speaker 1: the business community. Is there increasing awareness maybe post COVID

1697
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:47,880
Speaker 1: that this is something that needs to be done, that

1698
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:49,719
Speaker 1: there needs to be an increase in the United States.

1699
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 1: So obviously subsidies are helpful, But do you think corporate

1700
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 1: America is coming around to the necessity of some of

1701
01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 1: this or is there still do encounter serious resistance when

1702
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:03,160
Speaker 1: you're talking toiness community. I think the thinking is changing. Look,

1703
01:33:03,200 --> 01:33:07,360
Speaker 1: the corporations made out extraordinarily. They shifted our production off

1704
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:10,320
Speaker 1: to China. They had labor arbitrage, they didn't have to

1705
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 1: have the environmental regulations, and they sold cheaper products to

1706
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 1: the United States. And the bargain with the United States

1707
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 1: with Americans was we'll give you a cheap TV, but

1708
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:22,519
Speaker 1: in the process you're going to lose your job. And

1709
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 1: that's a bargain today that didn't work. I mean, people

1710
01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:27,800
Speaker 1: rather not have in my view, just the cheap TV

1711
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 1: if it meant the loss of their factories. So I

1712
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:33,320
Speaker 1: think people now in the corporate America are understanding two things.

1713
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:38,080
Speaker 1: This led to massive social disunity in this country. This

1714
01:33:38,160 --> 01:33:41,720
Speaker 1: led to things, not a direct line, but a contributing

1715
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:45,040
Speaker 1: factor to things like January sixth. I mean it led

1716
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 1: to people being upset, being frustrated, and I think they

1717
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 1: get that, they're beginning to get that. And second they

1718
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:54,920
Speaker 1: get the risk of having supply chains overseas, with the

1719
01:33:54,960 --> 01:33:58,960
Speaker 1: political volatility with the pandemic, and they understand that there's

1720
01:33:58,960 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 1: a resilience argument for having it here. But we can't

1721
01:34:01,920 --> 01:34:04,599
Speaker 1: just trust or for leaders to bring it back. We

1722
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,080
Speaker 1: need policy to bring it back, which has to include,

1723
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:09,760
Speaker 1: in my view, by American tax credits. It has to

1724
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:13,560
Speaker 1: include certain strategic tariffs so that if you're polluting offshore

1725
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:16,439
Speaker 1: and you're bringing it here, there's a tariff, and it

1726
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:20,640
Speaker 1: has to have government investment. I don't believe this is protectionism.

1727
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,760
Speaker 1: Protectionism is saying we don't want the global economy. I

1728
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:27,160
Speaker 1: think this is smart economic policy, the kind that Hamilton had,

1729
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:29,840
Speaker 1: the kind that FDR had, the kind that we need now.

1730
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:32,519
Speaker 1: And so last week you had a lot of people

1731
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:37,599
Speaker 1: on the left watching the Freedom Caucus hold up Kevin

1732
01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:41,679
Speaker 1: McCarthy's speakership in order to extract concessions and saying, this

1733
01:34:41,720 --> 01:34:43,840
Speaker 1: is the kind of fight we want to see. Like

1734
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,479
Speaker 1: you had plenty of people saying, Wow, what a disaster,

1735
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:48,600
Speaker 1: what a circus, want a mess, but then your others saying, no,

1736
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:51,479
Speaker 1: this is what an actual fight is. And if you

1737
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 1: want to throw down, it's a democracy. Look at the

1738
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:56,880
Speaker 1: way that they're throwing down here. Was there any part

1739
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,440
Speaker 1: of you or any part of part of your colleagues

1740
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,679
Speaker 1: in Congress who were watching this and saying, I don't

1741
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:05,080
Speaker 1: like what they're fighting for, but there might be something

1742
01:35:05,080 --> 01:35:07,800
Speaker 1: we could learn from here in the future about how

1743
01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:11,760
Speaker 1: we're going to fight our own party leadership. I joked

1744
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 1: with someone, I said, this is the first time I've

1745
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:15,559
Speaker 1: been in Congress in six years, and I don't know

1746
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. I mean, usually you go in

1747
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:20,839
Speaker 1: everyone knows what the vote's going to be. You pretend

1748
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 1: to hear the arguments and know what really is paying

1749
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 1: any attention. They're all of their phones texting, and here

1750
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 1: there was a sense of drama, right. I think that's

1751
01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:29,599
Speaker 1: why people were glued in it was different than the

1752
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:33,640
Speaker 1: talking points. My concern was not the drama. If there

1753
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: was a drama. If there was drama in fifteen votes,

1754
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:38,519
Speaker 1: and we ended electing people who are going to help

1755
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:41,840
Speaker 1: bring American jobs back, make the proper investments, and not

1756
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:45,400
Speaker 1: have frivolous investigations, I'd be fine with it. My concern

1757
01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 1: was that the deals that were made to get there

1758
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:51,719
Speaker 1: are exactly the opposite of what I think this country

1759
01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 1: needs to be doing. I mean, they're talking about not

1760
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:57,559
Speaker 1: increasing the debt ceiling for past debt that we have.

1761
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:02,599
Speaker 1: They're making deals with very very far right folks. Why

1762
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:06,800
Speaker 1: just philosophically disagree with So I'm less concerned about, oh,

1763
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:10,000
Speaker 1: it took fifteen votes. I'm more concerned about what McCarthy

1764
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:12,759
Speaker 1: had to give up to get those votes. But as

1765
01:36:13,040 --> 01:36:16,120
Speaker 1: if Democrats take the House back in two years, which

1766
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:19,920
Speaker 1: seems plausible, it'll probably be by a narrow margin. Is

1767
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,720
Speaker 1: there any thinking going on in the Progressive caucus now

1768
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,720
Speaker 1: to say, what are we going to demand when that

1769
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:31,320
Speaker 1: that's around now? Well, Hakee Jefferys was warned by Kevin McCarthy, right,

1770
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 1: He said, I had a unanimous vote two years ago. Look,

1771
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:39,920
Speaker 1: I think there are arguments for it, for example, Medicare

1772
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 1: for all, to get hearings on that, to get a

1773
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:44,800
Speaker 1: vote on that. But here's the difference, and I believe

1774
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:48,240
Speaker 1: the fundamental difference with the Freedom Caucus and the Progressive Caucus.

1775
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:50,719
Speaker 1: The Freedom Caucus, by their own definition, just wants to

1776
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 1: blow things up and cut things. I mean, that's why

1777
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 1: they're in Congress, and I disagree with it. I'm not

1778
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:57,880
Speaker 1: questioning their motives. They are in Congress because they want

1779
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:01,559
Speaker 1: to reduce spending, cut government. That's an easier thing to

1780
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:04,160
Speaker 1: be a no on that, saying Okay, we want medicare

1781
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:05,960
Speaker 1: for all, which is what if we have to have

1782
01:37:06,080 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 1: legislation draft it and just say It's a harder thing

1783
01:37:10,080 --> 01:37:12,600
Speaker 1: to do when you have an affirmative agenda, so that

1784
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:16,360
Speaker 1: progressives are never going to be blow up government or

1785
01:37:17,080 --> 01:37:20,639
Speaker 1: let's just hurt government. But are there lessons in terms

1786
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:23,080
Speaker 1: of saying we want more progressives at certain committees, we

1787
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:25,800
Speaker 1: want progressives, we want certain bills to come up for

1788
01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:28,240
Speaker 1: a vote. Sure, I mean I think that those are

1789
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:31,719
Speaker 1: things that progressives should consider. I'm very curious to follow

1790
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:34,800
Speaker 1: the single subject bill situation that you guys got going

1791
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:38,040
Speaker 1: on this Congress that'll be a fascinating experiment. I think, yeah,

1792
01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:40,240
Speaker 1: not all the rules were bad reforms. I mean the

1793
01:37:40,240 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 1: fact that members can introduce amendments, the fact that seventy

1794
01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:46,920
Speaker 1: two hours we have to see the bill, the single

1795
01:37:46,920 --> 01:37:50,519
Speaker 1: subject Bill, seems to be thoughtful. Some of the rules,

1796
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:52,720
Speaker 1: I understand. I have to look at the details. Make

1797
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 1: it easier to do war powers resolutions to stop to

1798
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:58,840
Speaker 1: stop wars, and make sure that those are privileged. So

1799
01:37:59,160 --> 01:38:02,040
Speaker 1: I I think it's too broad a brush to just

1800
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:06,360
Speaker 1: say everything that was done was wrong, but that you

1801
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:09,280
Speaker 1: also have that with the gutting of the Congressional ethics,

1802
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, who's for that in this country? That congress

1803
01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:15,680
Speaker 1: people should have less oversight on our ethics? I mean,

1804
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:20,080
Speaker 1: like that probably polds less than Congress itself who came

1805
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:22,879
Speaker 1: up with that idea? What about their so called Church Committee?

1806
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 1: Would you join that if you were invited to the

1807
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:27,040
Speaker 1: criticism of it is that it's just going to be

1808
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:30,280
Speaker 1: kind of a hunter Biden, which type of committee. On

1809
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 1: the other hand, they might stumble on all sorts of revelations. Yeah,

1810
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:37,519
Speaker 1: so where do you come down at? No, Look, the

1811
01:38:37,600 --> 01:38:41,320
Speaker 1: Church Committee had inm of your two big insights, one

1812
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:45,240
Speaker 1: the role that our foresheire government played and interfering in

1813
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 1: countries overseas with self determination. And the Church Committee exposed

1814
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:54,040
Speaker 1: that and I think put appropriate guardrails on these agencies.

1815
01:38:54,240 --> 01:38:56,000
Speaker 1: And the second thing is they discovered a lot of

1816
01:38:56,040 --> 01:38:59,280
Speaker 1: the surveillance of the Black Panthers and in in civil

1817
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:04,479
Speaker 1: civil rights dissonance. I just don't think this committee. I

1818
01:39:04,479 --> 01:39:07,679
Speaker 1: think it's going to become too politicized and going after

1819
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:13,559
Speaker 1: the investigators of January sixth and other things we'll see.

1820
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:15,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I hope I'm wrong. Would you take a

1821
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:20,240
Speaker 1: seat though I probably not. I'd have to have a

1822
01:39:20,240 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 1: lot of assurances that it's not going to be used

1823
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:27,720
Speaker 1: for those partisan purposes. Well, thank you so much for

1824
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,040
Speaker 1: joining us. Really appreciate you coming by here. Appreciate it,

1825
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:34,280
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. So we're going to have to

1826
01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:36,439
Speaker 1: wrap here so that we can get our show out,

1827
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:38,360
Speaker 1: but we have a couple more guests that are coming around.

1828
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:40,040
Speaker 1: So if you're listening to this on the podcast or

1829
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:43,040
Speaker 1: on the kind of main premium thing, to jump back

1830
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:45,599
Speaker 1: over to YouTube later once you've made it this far.

1831
01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:48,519
Speaker 1: The connorson kinda always appreciate you coming by. Ah, it

1832
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 1: was great. Thanks for the detailed discussion. I wish we

1833
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:54,639
Speaker 1: had more of this in the media. Me too, Me too,

1834
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: See you guys soon.