WEBVTT - What’s NATO All About? 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.720 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.680 and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here. And 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:21.000 this is stuff you should know. The Triple Alliance coming 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.640 at you, but not overstepping our bouts, being very delicate. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:31.800 Here correct because they tell you the Triple Alliance. Yeah, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.519 I think that was actually that the proper name for 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:41.760 the Aztecs. Oh yeah, m hm, alright, no, but I 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.239 like that. You know, hopefully this episode is coming out 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.680 and we're getting some some guest listeners who are like, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:49.960 what is this native thing all about? Who are these 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.640 dumb dumbs? They can explain it, and so I like, 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.000 I like you lobbying out in a little factoid for everyone. 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.520 Oh yeah, well that's how we do. We tread lightly, 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.560 we don't overstep our bounds, and we laugh about factoids. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:04.759 So welcome. This is stuff you should know. My name 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.320 is Chuck and I'm a co host along with Josh Clark. Yeah, Hi, 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.600 and we explain things and it's in my humorous way 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.680 over the course of you know, a lot of podcasts 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.240 do this every episode. They explain what their missions I 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.280 would I would go berserk, man, I would have giant 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.600 patches in my head where I've just pulled hair clean out. 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.240 But we like to explain things in a in an 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.120 approachable way to the common person, that is to say, 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.880 that is what we are. We don't have lofty goals. 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:36.960 There you go. Why did you write that one down? 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.880 That was amazing? Yeah, we should do this every time 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.680 and just let me wing it every time. Okay. I 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.800 think we just came up with a new format in 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.720 twenty two. So Chuck, we're talking about NATO, and if 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.280 you didn't know, if you didn't know, we're in trouble. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.920 But if you the listener, especially the new ones, didn't know, 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.480 NATO stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which is 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.960 the kind of name that you can make your eyes 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:08.400 glaze over with just one pass. It's just that boring sounding, right, Yeah, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.119 But it's a pretty I mean, I don't know, maybe 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.200 this is an opinion of my own, but I think 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:19.280 it's pretty fundamentally uh integral body to the world order. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.360 I mean, it's certainly proved itself as such. And you know, 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.920 we're Americans, we were kind of raised to think like 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.600 NATO's fine and great, and it's a good thing. Don't 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.120 even don't even bother thinking about it unless we need 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.440 you to, and if so, we'll alert you through the 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.280 media and then you can start thinking about it. Um. 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:38.919 But if you dig into it a little bit and 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.120 you actually like, look at the stuff that it does, 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.960 the stuff that it has done, the reasons it was founded, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.440 and the reasons it's operating now, it actually does make 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.040 a tremendous amount of sense. If you're a fan of democracy. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.399 You know, even if you're not a fan of military operations, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.440 which I mean, like I'm not, I would rather everything 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.359 just be at peace. It would be great if we 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.960 could do everything through diplomacy, right, Um. But so even 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:05.840 if you're not like, yeah, we gotta go get him, 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.640 let's just get over there and shoot everybody. Um, you 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:13.359 could still be like a supporter of NATO just because 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.280 of the stability it does provide, like you were saying, 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.720 or has provided all this time. I I and yeah, 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.440 I mean in recent stuff with Ukraine and Russia has 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:24.760 definitely made me rethink it in a more positive light 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.760 and that it's more essential than I thought it was. Yeah, 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.040 and we'll get into that obviously along the way in 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.639 this episode and sort of explain what's going on in 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.920 some detail. But I also just the idea that NATO 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.120 is outdated and of a bygone era and not useful 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.080 in a waste of money is I think, um folly 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.280 and Uh, We're not gonna go down that road too much. 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.560 We're just gonna probably explain how it works and hopefully 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.000 through that to display why it's still necessary. The thing is, Chuck, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:04:00.520 is that particular opinion of NATO wasn't necessarily be wrong 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.600 a year ago, two years ago, five years ago. And 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:06.280 it's not like you and I just woke up to 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:10.400 the importance of NATO. Literally, the world has changed in 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.760 the last two months since Russia invaded Ukraine and NATO, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.240 which was struggling to find its way its purpose up 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.280 until about two thousand and fourteen, when the last time 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.960 Russia invaded Ukraine, UM suddenly became like important and had 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.080 a reason to exist again. So things have changed that 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:35.520 dramatically that a thirty nation allegiance organization that had been 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.279 kind of like what are you what are you guys 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.400 doing again? What's the point of all this was now 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.719 one of the most important organizations in the entire world again. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:48.000 Well yeah, and I think there's a lesson in complacency there. Uh, 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:50.880 Like it's like if you had this old panic room 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.440 installed in your house in the seventies and and you 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.800 know here in were like, you know what this panic room. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.599 I think I'm just going to turn it into a 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.479 Benga hall. It's getting kind of useless. And then all 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.800 of a sudden the purge happens, and you remember why 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.320 you needed that panic room. Yeah, so the purge happened 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.599 to Ukraine in February of this year, But the purge 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:18.520 was always just sitting out there possibly could happen. And 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.800 I guess that's the complacency I'm talking about. I think 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.719 no one thought anything like, oh, everything's like, everything's fine 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:26.760 these days, like Europe is not going to be at war, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.400 we don't need this stuff. And then but that possibility 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.279 is always out there, and I think just the mirror 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.039 and this isn't me, this is you know, highly respected 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.880 people say that just the mere mention of exiting NATO 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:45.400 and dissolving NATO emboldened people like Putin, Yes, so, um, 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.400 what sucks is like the idea that that we're living 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.680 in a world where NATO is essential, where that the 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:57.160 purge is kind of always out there. Um, it didn't 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.440 necessarily be that way. And if if you if you're 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.479 uncomble living in that that kind of reality, if you're 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.719 if you're like this reality actually sucks that the purge 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:08.800 is out there and we have to have NATO. Now, 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.279 we have to spend all this extra money on defense 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.560 and all this stuff, and you know, peace seems to 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.200 be you know, up in arms in question. Again, blame 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:21.640 the people who invade other countries. Don't blame the people 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.400 who have allied to fight against that kind of thing 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.919 in the name of democracy, Well said sir. Should we 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:31.880 go back to the beginning. Yeah, let's talk about the 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.000 history of NATO, because it's a fairly um young organization 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.200 comparatively speaking, like if you compare it to you know, 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:43.800 systems of writing, it's very young, that's true, or the 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.560 sun sure, very very young. Huh uh. So let's go 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.520 back in time. I guess we should jump in the 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.359 old way back machine. Rank it up. It's been a while. 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:55.680 You're showing off for the new people. Huh. I know, 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:57.359 we have a way back machine and we can go 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:06.080 back in time to take that April fourth, nineteen forty 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.720 nine is when the North Atlantic Treaty was signed initially 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.720 by the original uh the O G s the twelve 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:16.840 founding member countries, which were ourselves here in the United 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.920 States Canada are hat to the North. I like that 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.120 you're adding a little bit to each one. But can 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.480 you sing it as a song? No? I can't. Shoot. 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.640 I just did did you hear that? I did? Uh? 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.760 Where else? The United Kingdom, our friends across the pond, 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:37.960 Uh France, those folks who make such good gravies, Uh Italy, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:44.040 which is all about those pillowy beautiful what are they 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:48.480 called croissants? Well, sure, but I was thinking of the pasta. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:53.040 That's uh the gnocchi. Oh yeah, that's not pillowe. It's dense, 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:58.800 it's densest pillowe. I don't think that's gnocchi. I think 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:03.960 that's like um is delicious, but it's Yournoki's two dens. 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.200 Isn't gnocchi? Stuff with something though? No key, Oh, I'm 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:14.840 thinking of parogis Portugal delicious wines. Uh Norway. I just 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.840 here they bike a lot over there. Denmark they bike 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:23.720 even more. Iceland is not Greenland. People get those confused Belgium. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.920 I've been there, and that's where NATO is headquartered. We'll 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.880 get to that. The Netherlands, they are largely below sea level. 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.079 And then Luxembourg. I flew out of there once. It's 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.920 very small. It is extremely small. And I've been to 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.040 Belgium too, by the way. Uh, yeah, Belgium is nice. 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.520 And then you got Greece and Turkey in fifty two 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.320 West Germany and fifty five Spain and eighty two, and 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.160 then in n when the Soviet Union collapsed, it was 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.120 like a free for all of people and countries going 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:54.680 oh me me, me, me, me, me me. Over the 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.720 next eighteen years, Yeah, and NATO was saying, yes, come 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.959 be friends, come become democracies. This is great for US. UM. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.600 And that was that. We'll talk about it kind of considered. UM. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.880 There's a guy named James stev RDIs. He was the 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:12.160 Supreme Allied Commander of NATO from two thousand nine to 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.720 two UM and he put it as that that was 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.680 kind of the beginning of NATO two point oh. But 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.880 NATO one point oh. The original mission of NATO was 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.360 very clear, it was very purposeful, it was very complicated 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.480 in execution, and it required tons of money, especially considering 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:37.600 there were only twelve to sixteen members from two right 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:44.520 um and the mission was contained the Soviet Union because 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.520 after World War Two, Europe was just tow up from 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.560 the flow up and it was up for grabs. And 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:54.880 one of the first things the Soviet Union did was 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.400 start pouring all of its economy into its military and 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.960 say sing, okay, you're part of the Soviet Union. Now 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.640 you're part of the Soviet Union. You're part of the 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.720 Soviet Union. They drew whatevery eighties, kid Um knew was 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.600 a line between Europe and the Eastern Bloc called the 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.959 Iron Curtain. And you did not penetrate the Iron Curtain. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:22.240 The Iron Curtain penetrated you. All right, y'all think I'm 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.120 glad you got that. Uh, that is true. And the 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.400 one of the biggest parts of NATO, that's sort of 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.240 one of the most fundamental parts of it, is Article five, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:34.920 which we won't read in full. You should go look 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.760 it up online though and read it. But it basically, 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.320 but we could sing it. It basically says, you know 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:45.440 what these are all like, NATO isn't a military force. 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.080 It is a bunch of countries and their military forces, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.439 and it's really up to each member to decide what 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.200 they want to do when it comes to supporting an 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.559 ally like you don't have to use military force. Uh 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.079 you can though under an international law, but you basically 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.600 it's up to each country. It's a it's a weird 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.800 organization and that they don't vote on things. It's all 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:14.200 just sort of hammered out as a consensus, including who 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.959 the NATO Secretary General is. They don't even vote on that. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.520 They just sort of agree to who's gonna take that 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.680 role and um which will you know, we'll get to 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.160 what they do later, but it is I did find 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.880 it fascinating that they don't you know, they don't sit down. 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.080 I mean, how many countries are there now, thirty? They 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.160 don't sit down and have a thirty country vote when 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.439 it comes to anything. They just they just work it out. 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.600 That means sometimes some countries are gonna get more of 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.959 what they want and some times are gonna have to 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.200 acquiesce and get less, Yeah, which I find kind of neat. 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.920 But overall, most of the countries are in favor of 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.720 doing whatever NATO is doing, or they're opposed to it, 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.600 and NATO doesn't do something so that Article five, the 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.719 basis of it is what's called collective defense and the 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.319 maintenance of this. This is the thing that probably binds 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.200 more than anything else the thirty countries that are members 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.480 of NATO, is that if you attack one NATO country, 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:14.440 you are effectively attacking all thirty NATO countries, and those 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:19.920 thirty NATO right, those thirty NATO countries will bring their substantial, 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:24.920 significant military might onto you the attacker who attacked that 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:29.520 one country. That's ultimately the main and original purpose of 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.880 NATO because when when NATO was formed and Russia was 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.480 consolidating its military, Europe was not what The countries of 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.040 Europe were in no shape to defend themselves. So they 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.800 entered into this pact with the United States and Canada, 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.000 who said, we'll come over and help you guys. And 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:47.920 by the way, so you know, I hope you're listening. 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:49.840 If you attack any of these guys, if you try 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.920 to expand beyond that iron curtain, we're coming in like 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.480 it's an attack on us. That was the basis of NATO, 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.720 and it's been upheld ever since, although it's only been 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:04.000 in once in the history um since nineteen yeah. And 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.240 not only does that mean that these countries aren't getting attacked, 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:12.360 which is uh been pretty ironclad. It means that other countries, 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.319 like obviously in ninety one, like I said, with the 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.559 fall of the Soviet Union, over the next eighteen years 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.240 are scrambling to be a part of it because a 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.960 lot of these are smaller countries who no way could 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.679 they stand up to a superpower like Russia. Uh so 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.280 they were they want to be in NATO, and we'll 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.880 talk about Ukraine and they're you know, whether or not 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:36.559 their desire was to be a part of NATO and 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.520 where that kind of lies now with the current situation. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.640 But the point is these countries like Slovenia and Albania 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.120 and Croatia and Montenegro, like they want to be a 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:51.440 part of NATO because they need friends. Well they yeah, 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.679 they do need friends because yeah, if if there was 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.120 Russian aggression against them, they would just completely they would 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.800 have no no choice. They I don't even think they 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.520 could fight back in the way that Ukraine did. Some 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.760 of these countries are so small and have such small militaries. 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.679 So yeah, so right now as it stands, as far 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.640 as Article five is concerned, if any country attacks North 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.440 Macedonia to the United States military, it is attacking the 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.400 United States. That's just part of the NATO treaty, right, 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.640 And and there's that's a point of contention from what 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.680 I saw a chuck that that some people are like, Okay, 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.120 are we really going to send our troops over to 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.080 like die in North Macedonia if Russia attacks it? And 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.400 as far as our Article five is concerned, yeah, you 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.600 would like you would do that, like that's part of 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.160 the treaty, Like they are a NATO member nation. And 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.360 to some people it doesn't make sense that you would 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.680 sacrifice you know, blood and treasure as they say in 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:51.280 North Macedonia. To other people, it's it's exactly sensible because 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.840 if North Macedonia is a NATO country, you can put 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.120 whatever missiles you want in North Macedonia. They're a NATO country, 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.800 and so there's strategically located, and their strategic location makes 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.480 them extraordinarily valuable as a NATO member. So it makes 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.840 sense in some ways, it doesn't make sense in other ways. 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.600 But overall, the general idea is that the more NATO 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.200 countries you have in Europe, the stronger the whole thing is, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.440 even including the little countries. Everybody has a role to play. Well, yeah, 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.400 and not only that, you know, the little countries. Uh, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.840 if you might think it's not worth expending all this 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.080 kind of money to help and you know, maybe American 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.640 soldiers lives to protect them. The dominoes can fall very 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:42.080 quickly when you have somebody like Putin in power, and um, 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.480 the world wants most of the world wants peace, and 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.440 that can very easily be very tenuous if these little, 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.640 smaller countries start following like dominoes and all of a 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.320 sudden you look up and the world map is being redrawn, 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.520 right exactly, So that's exactly what they're trying to prevent 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:04.000 by by stringing together this cohesive group of NATO countries. Right. Um. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.120 On the other hand, if you are in Russia and 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.160 you're in the Russian military, or say you're the head 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.840 of Russia, when you see all these little countries that 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.760 are along your border now suddenly saying we're a democracy 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.560 and we're now NATO members and we can put missiles 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.880 aimed at you, like right along your border, that's a 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:32.200 huge menace to you. And um, that in some ways 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:37.120 explains the aggression that Putin carried out in Ukraine. Among 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:41.680 some observers, that's not that hasn't been is necessarily the 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.800 stated goal of the invasion of Ukraine. But a lot 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.840 of Russian experts say this, this actually is is a 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.520 huge response to NATO. He doesn't want to bring Ukraine 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:58.520 into the Russian Federation necessarily. I remember when this started 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.440 a few weeks ago. Um Emily, who was my wife? 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.600 If you're new to the show, she gets mentioned occasionally. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.639 Josh's a wife, name you me? She gets mentioned occasionally. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:11.600 We also have pets. I have a daughter. They might 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.680 pop up as well, but I doubt it. My pet 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.560 is my daughter and they Emily was just like, why 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.040 what is you know? She didn't really understand what was 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:21.560 going on at first, She said, what does Russia want 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.120 with Ukraine? And I just very simply because it's more 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.479 complex than that. But I was basically like, it's like 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:33.000 the oldest, the oldest reason in world history. It's land, 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.960 and it's a big chunk of land, and where it 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.959 sits next to Russia, it's strategically it's like it's troublesome 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:45.160 for them to have uh NATO interests there, and it's 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.919 troublesome for NATO to have Russian interest there. So it's 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:50.280 you know, it's funny, like when you look back and 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.520 they're not funny, it's sad. But when you look back 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.760 at like, there are many reasons for war, but like 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.399 one of the biggest ones has always just been land 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:02.240 acquisition and holdings totally and usually along your border, and 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.800 you just expand. I mean, it was like expanding the 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.160 Empire before for like resources and stuff, and I think 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.360 that still clearly goes on, but it also in this 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.400 case is like wanting a buffer between NATO and Russia 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.320 on the one hand, Right, should we take a break. 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.440 Let's take a break, so we'll be right back and 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.800 we'll talk a little bit about some of the mess 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.520 that NATO two point oh was in which led us 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:45.840 to NATO three point oh. Okay, so we're back, and um, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:51.080 we're talking about what again Supreme Allied Commander James Stavridis called, 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.560 and I think Time magazine like two eighteen NATO two 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.480 point oh and NATO two point oh came about because 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.399 the whole purpose of NATO, which was then tain the 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:05.920 Soviet Union out of Europe um, became pointless because there 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.320 was no Soviet Union anymore. After I believe the USSR 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.480 broke up right. And on the one hand, when it 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.720 first happened, Chuck, it was like you were saying, like, 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:21.560 all of these these former Russian satellite states started scrambling 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.560 to become part of NATO, and NATO was welcoming them 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.399 with open arms. Um. And that that first part of 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.159 that NATO two point oh, that second general point of 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.160 NATO made a lot of sense, and it was consolidating 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:40.320 Europe into an even more peaceful, more democratic area. But 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.760 then after that kind of stabilized and they got there 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.919 that process under underway, um, it started to kind of 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:52.800 like lose its point or its purpose a little bit. Yeah. 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.640 I mean, I think post Cold War, the complacency set 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.480 in and people did start to think, like what are 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.960 we doing? And NATO two point oh said, well, you 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.160 know what we can. Uh. We can engage in counter 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:10.080 terrorism uh campaigns. UH. We don't like the piracy that's 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.240 going around the world, so we can help to combat that, uh. 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.960 And we can get involved in these other uh in 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.720 combating these other activities that are detrimental to world order 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.480 and world peace. But this is kind of some of 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.199 the stuff that not only did it, it caused some 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.800 consternation in the citizens of the world, like what are 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.920 we doing here with NATO. It was also within NATO 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.159 there was a lot of infighting within the board of 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.360 like what you know or the council should I say, 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:40.840 what should we do? I don't think we should be 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:42.760 doing this. We should be doing this. And since they 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.119 have to hammer everything out and agree even sometimes to 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.440 disagree in order to do something, it was a little 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.280 bit fractured. On the interior, Yeah, big time because a 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.879 lot of people are like, what the heck does combating 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:58.879 piracy in the Gulf of Aiden have to do with 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.440 protecting Europe, m the USSR, you know, the Cold Wars 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.120 over what are we doing? Like, yeah, let's let's keep 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.960 NATO together because who knows what what's going to be needed? 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.040 But do we need to engage in this adventurism? And 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.879 then UM the Supreme Alley Commander position, which is the 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:19.520 head of all NATO forces, that is like by nature 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.320 in the treaty, I think always an American, so the 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.720 Americans always de facto and also in a lot of 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:30.960 different ways really lead NATO. UM. But in the early 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.040 two thousand's America squandered a lot of its credibility, a 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:41.119 lot of its legitimacy in adventurism like invading Iraq unprovoked 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.480 illegally um, which by the way, NATO had nothing to 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.400 do with because the rest of the NATO nations are 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:49.720 most of the other NATO nations were like, this is 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.080 not right. We're not going anywhere near it, which is 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.280 a mark in NATO's favor if you ask me, um 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.600 that they saw like this is not this is not 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:02.800 a just war as an invasion um. But that that 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.280 kind of stuff like really kind of made other member 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.800 nations kind of question American leadership. Whereas up to that point, 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.520 or a little before that point, it was just like 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.880 America was leading the way, NATO was following, and it 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:19.280 was all good. And then after that things started to 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.760 really kind of fracture and crack. Right. So this is 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.600 sort of when Ukraine um comes into the picture, and 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.119 that you don't have to be a NATO member to 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.440 deal with NATO and to work with NATO and to 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.400 read a lot of the benefits of NATO so they 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:37.879 can partner with non NATO countries. This started back in 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:41.760 ninety one with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.840 the goal here is to basically to arm people, to 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:50.160 train people to ensure their democracy stays stable. Uh. And 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.160 you know when that started happening, non NATO countries got 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.919 interested in this kind of partnership, specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina, 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.479 Georgia and uk Rain. So all of a sudden, these uh, 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.480 in the early nineties, these other countries are knocking on 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.840 the door saying, hey, we don't want to be members 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.040 because they can you can join. Any European country can 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:16.840 join NATO as long as they, you know, do what's required, 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:18.520 which will you know, we'll get to that in a minute. 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.480 But Ukraine has been working with them through what's called 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:28.000 the Comprehensive Assistance Package. They've been receiving NATO support. Uh. 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.639 And this is the kind of thing that you know, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:35.920 Zelinski has a lot of this quagmire that is happening 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:38.280 now is Russia was afraid that they were officially going 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:43.560 to join NATO because Zelinski approved the National Security strategy, 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.800 which it was almost like they were seriously kicking the 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.760