1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here. And 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: this is stuff you should know. The Triple Alliance coming 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: at you, but not overstepping our bouts, being very delicate. 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Here correct because they tell you the Triple Alliance. Yeah, 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: I think that was actually that the proper name for 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: the Aztecs. Oh yeah, m hm, alright, no, but I 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: like that. You know, hopefully this episode is coming out 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: and we're getting some some guest listeners who are like, 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: what is this native thing all about? Who are these 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: dumb dumbs? They can explain it, and so I like, 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: I like you lobbying out in a little factoid for everyone. 14 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's how we do. We tread lightly, 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: we don't overstep our bounds, and we laugh about factoids. 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: So welcome. This is stuff you should know. My name 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: is Chuck and I'm a co host along with Josh Clark. Yeah, Hi, 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: and we explain things and it's in my humorous way 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: over the course of you know, a lot of podcasts 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: do this every episode. They explain what their missions I 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: would I would go berserk, man, I would have giant 22 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: patches in my head where I've just pulled hair clean out. 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: But we like to explain things in a in an 24 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: approachable way to the common person, that is to say, 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: that is what we are. We don't have lofty goals. 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: There you go. Why did you write that one down? 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: That was amazing? Yeah, we should do this every time 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: and just let me wing it every time. Okay. I 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: think we just came up with a new format in 30 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: twenty two. So Chuck, we're talking about NATO, and if 31 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: you didn't know, if you didn't know, we're in trouble. 32 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: But if you the listener, especially the new ones, didn't know, 33 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: NATO stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which is 34 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: the kind of name that you can make your eyes 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: glaze over with just one pass. It's just that boring sounding, right, Yeah, 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: But it's a pretty I mean, I don't know, maybe 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: this is an opinion of my own, but I think 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: it's pretty fundamentally uh integral body to the world order. 39 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's certainly proved itself as such. And you know, 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: we're Americans, we were kind of raised to think like 41 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: NATO's fine and great, and it's a good thing. Don't 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: even don't even bother thinking about it unless we need 43 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: you to, and if so, we'll alert you through the 44 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: media and then you can start thinking about it. Um. 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: But if you dig into it a little bit and 46 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: you actually like, look at the stuff that it does, 47 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: the stuff that it has done, the reasons it was founded, 48 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: and the reasons it's operating now, it actually does make 49 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of sense. If you're a fan of democracy. 50 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: You know, even if you're not a fan of military operations, 51 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: which I mean, like I'm not, I would rather everything 52 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: just be at peace. It would be great if we 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: could do everything through diplomacy, right, Um. But so even 54 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: if you're not like, yeah, we gotta go get him, 55 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: let's just get over there and shoot everybody. Um, you 56 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: could still be like a supporter of NATO just because 57 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: of the stability it does provide, like you were saying, 58 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: or has provided all this time. I I and yeah, 59 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean in recent stuff with Ukraine and Russia has 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: definitely made me rethink it in a more positive light 61 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: and that it's more essential than I thought it was. Yeah, 62 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: and we'll get into that obviously along the way in 63 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: this episode and sort of explain what's going on in 64 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: some detail. But I also just the idea that NATO 65 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: is outdated and of a bygone era and not useful 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: in a waste of money is I think, um folly 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: and Uh, We're not gonna go down that road too much. 68 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: We're just gonna probably explain how it works and hopefully 69 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: through that to display why it's still necessary. The thing is, Chuck, 70 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: is that particular opinion of NATO wasn't necessarily be wrong 71 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: a year ago, two years ago, five years ago. And 72 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: it's not like you and I just woke up to 73 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: the importance of NATO. Literally, the world has changed in 74 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: the last two months since Russia invaded Ukraine and NATO, 75 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: which was struggling to find its way its purpose up 76 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: until about two thousand and fourteen, when the last time 77 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: Russia invaded Ukraine, UM suddenly became like important and had 78 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: a reason to exist again. So things have changed that 79 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: dramatically that a thirty nation allegiance organization that had been 80 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: kind of like what are you what are you guys 81 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: doing again? What's the point of all this was now 82 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: one of the most important organizations in the entire world again. 83 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I think there's a lesson in complacency there. Uh, 84 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: Like it's like if you had this old panic room 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: installed in your house in the seventies and and you 86 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: know here in were like, you know what this panic room. 87 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: I think I'm just going to turn it into a 88 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: Benga hall. It's getting kind of useless. And then all 89 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: of a sudden the purge happens, and you remember why 90 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: you needed that panic room. Yeah, so the purge happened 91 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: to Ukraine in February of this year, But the purge 92 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: was always just sitting out there possibly could happen. And 93 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: I guess that's the complacency I'm talking about. I think 94 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: no one thought anything like, oh, everything's like, everything's fine 95 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: these days, like Europe is not going to be at war, 96 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: we don't need this stuff. And then but that possibility 97 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: is always out there, and I think just the mirror 98 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: and this isn't me, this is you know, highly respected 99 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: people say that just the mere mention of exiting NATO 100 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: and dissolving NATO emboldened people like Putin, Yes, so, um, 101 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: what sucks is like the idea that that we're living 102 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: in a world where NATO is essential, where that the 103 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: purge is kind of always out there. Um, it didn't 104 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: necessarily be that way. And if if you if you're 105 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: uncomble living in that that kind of reality, if you're 106 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: if you're like this reality actually sucks that the purge 107 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: is out there and we have to have NATO. Now, 108 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: we have to spend all this extra money on defense 109 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and you know, peace seems to 110 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: be you know, up in arms in question. Again, blame 111 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: the people who invade other countries. Don't blame the people 112 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: who have allied to fight against that kind of thing 113 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: in the name of democracy, Well said sir. Should we 114 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: go back to the beginning. Yeah, let's talk about the 115 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: history of NATO, because it's a fairly um young organization 116 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: comparatively speaking, like if you compare it to you know, 117 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: systems of writing, it's very young, that's true, or the 118 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: sun sure, very very young. Huh uh. So let's go 119 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: back in time. I guess we should jump in the 120 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: old way back machine. Rank it up. It's been a while. 121 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: You're showing off for the new people. Huh. I know, 122 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: we have a way back machine and we can go 123 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: back in time to take that April fourth, nineteen forty 124 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: nine is when the North Atlantic Treaty was signed initially 125 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: by the original uh the O G s the twelve 126 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: founding member countries, which were ourselves here in the United 127 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: States Canada are hat to the North. I like that 128 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: you're adding a little bit to each one. But can 129 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: you sing it as a song? No? I can't. Shoot. 130 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: I just did did you hear that? I did? Uh? 131 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: Where else? The United Kingdom, our friends across the pond, 132 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: Uh France, those folks who make such good gravies, Uh Italy, 133 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: which is all about those pillowy beautiful what are they 134 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: called croissants? Well, sure, but I was thinking of the pasta. 135 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: That's uh the gnocchi. Oh yeah, that's not pillowe. It's dense, 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: it's densest pillowe. I don't think that's gnocchi. I think 137 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: that's like um is delicious, but it's Yournoki's two dens. 138 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: Isn't gnocchi? Stuff with something though? No key, Oh, I'm 139 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: thinking of parogis Portugal delicious wines. Uh Norway. I just 140 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: here they bike a lot over there. Denmark they bike 141 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: even more. Iceland is not Greenland. People get those confused Belgium. 142 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: I've been there, and that's where NATO is headquartered. We'll 143 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: get to that. The Netherlands, they are largely below sea level. 144 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: And then Luxembourg. I flew out of there once. It's 145 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: very small. It is extremely small. And I've been to 146 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: Belgium too, by the way. Uh, yeah, Belgium is nice. 147 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: And then you got Greece and Turkey in fifty two 148 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: West Germany and fifty five Spain and eighty two, and 149 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: then in n when the Soviet Union collapsed, it was 150 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: like a free for all of people and countries going 151 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: oh me me, me, me, me, me me. Over the 152 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: next eighteen years, Yeah, and NATO was saying, yes, come 153 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: be friends, come become democracies. This is great for US. UM. 154 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: And that was that. We'll talk about it kind of considered. UM. 155 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: There's a guy named James stev RDIs. He was the 156 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: Supreme Allied Commander of NATO from two thousand nine to 157 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: two UM and he put it as that that was 158 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: kind of the beginning of NATO two point oh. But 159 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: NATO one point oh. The original mission of NATO was 160 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: very clear, it was very purposeful, it was very complicated 161 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: in execution, and it required tons of money, especially considering 162 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: there were only twelve to sixteen members from two right 163 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: um and the mission was contained the Soviet Union because 164 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: after World War Two, Europe was just tow up from 165 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: the flow up and it was up for grabs. And 166 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: one of the first things the Soviet Union did was 167 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: start pouring all of its economy into its military and 168 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: say sing, okay, you're part of the Soviet Union. Now 169 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: you're part of the Soviet Union. You're part of the 170 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: Soviet Union. They drew whatevery eighties, kid Um knew was 171 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: a line between Europe and the Eastern Bloc called the 172 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: Iron Curtain. And you did not penetrate the Iron Curtain. 173 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: The Iron Curtain penetrated you. All right, y'all think I'm 174 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: glad you got that. Uh, that is true. And the 175 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: one of the biggest parts of NATO, that's sort of 176 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: one of the most fundamental parts of it, is Article five, 177 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: which we won't read in full. You should go look 178 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: it up online though and read it. But it basically, 179 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: but we could sing it. It basically says, you know 180 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: what these are all like, NATO isn't a military force. 181 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: It is a bunch of countries and their military forces, 182 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: and it's really up to each member to decide what 183 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: they want to do when it comes to supporting an 184 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: ally like you don't have to use military force. Uh 185 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: you can though under an international law, but you basically 186 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: it's up to each country. It's a it's a weird 187 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: organization and that they don't vote on things. It's all 188 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: just sort of hammered out as a consensus, including who 189 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: the NATO Secretary General is. They don't even vote on that. 190 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: They just sort of agree to who's gonna take that 191 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: role and um which will you know, we'll get to 192 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: what they do later, but it is I did find 193 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: it fascinating that they don't you know, they don't sit down. 194 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: I mean, how many countries are there now, thirty? They 195 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: don't sit down and have a thirty country vote when 196 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: it comes to anything. They just they just work it out. 197 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: That means sometimes some countries are gonna get more of 198 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: what they want and some times are gonna have to 199 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: acquiesce and get less, Yeah, which I find kind of neat. 200 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: But overall, most of the countries are in favor of 201 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: doing whatever NATO is doing, or they're opposed to it, 202 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: and NATO doesn't do something so that Article five, the 203 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: basis of it is what's called collective defense and the 204 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: maintenance of this. This is the thing that probably binds 205 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: more than anything else the thirty countries that are members 206 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: of NATO, is that if you attack one NATO country, 207 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: you are effectively attacking all thirty NATO countries, and those 208 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: thirty NATO right, those thirty NATO countries will bring their substantial, 209 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: significant military might onto you the attacker who attacked that 210 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: one country. That's ultimately the main and original purpose of 211 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: NATO because when when NATO was formed and Russia was 212 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: consolidating its military, Europe was not what The countries of 213 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: Europe were in no shape to defend themselves. So they 214 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: entered into this pact with the United States and Canada, 215 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: who said, we'll come over and help you guys. And 216 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: by the way, so you know, I hope you're listening. 217 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: If you attack any of these guys, if you try 218 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: to expand beyond that iron curtain, we're coming in like 219 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: it's an attack on us. That was the basis of NATO, 220 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: and it's been upheld ever since, although it's only been 221 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: in once in the history um since nineteen yeah. And 222 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: not only does that mean that these countries aren't getting attacked, 223 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: which is uh been pretty ironclad. It means that other countries, 224 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: like obviously in ninety one, like I said, with the 225 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: fall of the Soviet Union, over the next eighteen years 226 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: are scrambling to be a part of it because a 227 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: lot of these are smaller countries who no way could 228 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: they stand up to a superpower like Russia. Uh so 229 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: they were they want to be in NATO, and we'll 230 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: talk about Ukraine and they're you know, whether or not 231 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 1: their desire was to be a part of NATO and 232 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: where that kind of lies now with the current situation. 233 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: But the point is these countries like Slovenia and Albania 234 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: and Croatia and Montenegro, like they want to be a 235 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: part of NATO because they need friends. Well they yeah, 236 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: they do need friends because yeah, if if there was 237 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: Russian aggression against them, they would just completely they would 238 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: have no no choice. They I don't even think they 239 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: could fight back in the way that Ukraine did. Some 240 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: of these countries are so small and have such small militaries. 241 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: So yeah, so right now as it stands, as far 242 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: as Article five is concerned, if any country attacks North 243 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: Macedonia to the United States military, it is attacking the 244 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: United States. That's just part of the NATO treaty, right, 245 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: And and there's that's a point of contention from what 246 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: I saw a chuck that that some people are like, Okay, 247 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: are we really going to send our troops over to 248 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: like die in North Macedonia if Russia attacks it? And 249 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: as far as our Article five is concerned, yeah, you 250 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: would like you would do that, like that's part of 251 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: the treaty, Like they are a NATO member nation. And 252 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: to some people it doesn't make sense that you would 253 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: sacrifice you know, blood and treasure as they say in 254 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: North Macedonia. To other people, it's it's exactly sensible because 255 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: if North Macedonia is a NATO country, you can put 256 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: whatever missiles you want in North Macedonia. They're a NATO country, 257 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: and so there's strategically located, and their strategic location makes 258 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: them extraordinarily valuable as a NATO member. So it makes 259 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: sense in some ways, it doesn't make sense in other ways. 260 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: But overall, the general idea is that the more NATO 261 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: countries you have in Europe, the stronger the whole thing is, 262 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: even including the little countries. Everybody has a role to play. Well, yeah, 263 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: and not only that, you know, the little countries. Uh, 264 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: if you might think it's not worth expending all this 265 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: kind of money to help and you know, maybe American 266 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: soldiers lives to protect them. The dominoes can fall very 267 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: quickly when you have somebody like Putin in power, and um, 268 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: the world wants most of the world wants peace, and 269 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: that can very easily be very tenuous if these little, 270 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: smaller countries start following like dominoes and all of a 271 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: sudden you look up and the world map is being redrawn, 272 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: right exactly, So that's exactly what they're trying to prevent 273 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: by by stringing together this cohesive group of NATO countries. Right. Um. 274 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if you are in Russia and 275 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: you're in the Russian military, or say you're the head 276 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: of Russia, when you see all these little countries that 277 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: are along your border now suddenly saying we're a democracy 278 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: and we're now NATO members and we can put missiles 279 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: aimed at you, like right along your border, that's a 280 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: huge menace to you. And um, that in some ways 281 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: explains the aggression that Putin carried out in Ukraine. Among 282 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: some observers, that's not that hasn't been is necessarily the 283 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: stated goal of the invasion of Ukraine. But a lot 284 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: of Russian experts say this, this actually is is a 285 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: huge response to NATO. He doesn't want to bring Ukraine 286 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: into the Russian Federation necessarily. I remember when this started 287 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. Um Emily, who was my wife? 288 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: If you're new to the show, she gets mentioned occasionally. 289 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: Josh's a wife, name you me? She gets mentioned occasionally. 290 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: We also have pets. I have a daughter. They might 291 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: pop up as well, but I doubt it. My pet 292 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: is my daughter and they Emily was just like, why 293 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: what is you know? She didn't really understand what was 294 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: going on at first, She said, what does Russia want 295 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: with Ukraine? And I just very simply because it's more 296 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 1: complex than that. But I was basically like, it's like 297 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: the oldest, the oldest reason in world history. It's land, 298 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: and it's a big chunk of land, and where it 299 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,959 Speaker 1: sits next to Russia, it's strategically it's like it's troublesome 300 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: for them to have uh NATO interests there, and it's 301 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: troublesome for NATO to have Russian interest there. So it's 302 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny, like when you look back and 303 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: they're not funny, it's sad. But when you look back 304 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: at like, there are many reasons for war, but like 305 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: one of the biggest ones has always just been land 306 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: acquisition and holdings totally and usually along your border, and 307 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: you just expand. I mean, it was like expanding the 308 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: Empire before for like resources and stuff, and I think 309 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: that still clearly goes on, but it also in this 310 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: case is like wanting a buffer between NATO and Russia 311 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: on the one hand, Right, should we take a break. 312 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: Let's take a break, so we'll be right back and 313 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about some of the mess 314 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: that NATO two point oh was in which led us 315 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: to NATO three point oh. Okay, so we're back, and um, 316 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about what again Supreme Allied Commander James Stavridis called, 317 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: and I think Time magazine like two eighteen NATO two 318 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: point oh and NATO two point oh came about because 319 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: the whole purpose of NATO, which was then tain the 320 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: Soviet Union out of Europe um, became pointless because there 321 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: was no Soviet Union anymore. After I believe the USSR 322 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: broke up right. And on the one hand, when it 323 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: first happened, Chuck, it was like you were saying, like, 324 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: all of these these former Russian satellite states started scrambling 325 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: to become part of NATO, and NATO was welcoming them 326 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: with open arms. Um. And that that first part of 327 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: that NATO two point oh, that second general point of 328 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: NATO made a lot of sense, and it was consolidating 329 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: Europe into an even more peaceful, more democratic area. But 330 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: then after that kind of stabilized and they got there 331 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: that process under underway, um, it started to kind of 332 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: like lose its point or its purpose a little bit. Yeah. 333 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think post Cold War, the complacency set 334 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: in and people did start to think, like what are 335 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: we doing? And NATO two point oh said, well, you 336 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: know what we can. Uh. We can engage in counter 337 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: terrorism uh campaigns. UH. We don't like the piracy that's 338 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: going around the world, so we can help to combat that, uh. 339 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: And we can get involved in these other uh in 340 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: combating these other activities that are detrimental to world order 341 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: and world peace. But this is kind of some of 342 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: the stuff that not only did it, it caused some 343 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: consternation in the citizens of the world, like what are 344 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: we doing here with NATO. It was also within NATO 345 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: there was a lot of infighting within the board of 346 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: like what you know or the council should I say, 347 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: what should we do? I don't think we should be 348 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: doing this. We should be doing this. And since they 349 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: have to hammer everything out and agree even sometimes to 350 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: disagree in order to do something, it was a little 351 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: bit fractured. On the interior, Yeah, big time because a 352 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, what the heck does combating 353 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: piracy in the Gulf of Aiden have to do with 354 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: protecting Europe, m the USSR, you know, the Cold Wars 355 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: over what are we doing? Like, yeah, let's let's keep 356 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: NATO together because who knows what what's going to be needed? 357 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: But do we need to engage in this adventurism? And 358 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: then UM the Supreme Alley Commander position, which is the 359 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: head of all NATO forces, that is like by nature 360 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: in the treaty, I think always an American, so the 361 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: Americans always de facto and also in a lot of 362 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: different ways really lead NATO. UM. But in the early 363 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: two thousand's America squandered a lot of its credibility, a 364 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: lot of its legitimacy in adventurism like invading Iraq unprovoked 365 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: illegally um, which by the way, NATO had nothing to 366 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: do with because the rest of the NATO nations are 367 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: most of the other NATO nations were like, this is 368 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: not right. We're not going anywhere near it, which is 369 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: a mark in NATO's favor if you ask me, um 370 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: that they saw like this is not this is not 371 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: a just war as an invasion um. But that that 372 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: kind of stuff like really kind of made other member 373 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: nations kind of question American leadership. Whereas up to that point, 374 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: or a little before that point, it was just like 375 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: America was leading the way, NATO was following, and it 376 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: was all good. And then after that things started to 377 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: really kind of fracture and crack. Right. So this is 378 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: sort of when Ukraine um comes into the picture, and 379 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: that you don't have to be a NATO member to 380 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: deal with NATO and to work with NATO and to 381 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: read a lot of the benefits of NATO so they 382 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: can partner with non NATO countries. This started back in 383 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: ninety one with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and 384 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: the goal here is to basically to arm people, to 385 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: train people to ensure their democracy stays stable. Uh. And 386 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: you know when that started happening, non NATO countries got 387 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: interested in this kind of partnership, specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina, 388 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,479 Speaker 1: Georgia and uk Rain. So all of a sudden, these uh, 389 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: in the early nineties, these other countries are knocking on 390 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: the door saying, hey, we don't want to be members 391 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: because they can you can join. Any European country can 392 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: join NATO as long as they, you know, do what's required, 393 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: which will you know, we'll get to that in a minute. 394 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: But Ukraine has been working with them through what's called 395 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: the Comprehensive Assistance Package. They've been receiving NATO support. Uh. 396 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thing that you know, 397 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: Zelinski has a lot of this quagmire that is happening 398 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: now is Russia was afraid that they were officially going 399 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: to join NATO because Zelinski approved the National Security strategy, 400 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: which it was almost like they were seriously kicking the 401 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: tires on one another. Finally, yeah, I think they. He 402 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: said in September twenty twenty that that Ukraine's aim was 403 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: to become a full member of NATO after being a 404 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: partner for you know, three decades but basically um or 405 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: at least two full decades um and even before that, 406 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: the whole thing kind of kicked off. There was a 407 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: summit in Bucharest called the Well the Bucharest Summit in 408 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and at that meeting, Georgia and 409 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: Ukraine declared that it was their aim to become NATO members. 410 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: And that seems to be at least geo politically speaking, 411 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: what what kind of kicked the tensions off big time 412 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: and led to the two thousand fourteen invasion of Ukraine 413 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: and Crimea and then also led to the two invasion 414 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: that's going on right now. That's right. A little more 415 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: nuts and bolts about NATO itself. They are, like we 416 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: said at the beginning, they're headquartered in Brussels, and uh, 417 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: everything's done by consensus. And you mentioned the military part 418 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: of NATO. It's different. It's called the Military Committee. It's 419 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: different than the actual North Atlantic Council. Like that's headed 420 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: by the NATO Secretary General and it's not a it's 421 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: not a figurehead position, but they don't they're not in 422 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: charge of like deciding anything they're just sort of uh, 423 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: they're the Secretary General, they head up the meetings. Uh. 424 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: They have historically always been European and the head of 425 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: the Military Committee has always been American, like you said, 426 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: but there's nothing in the charter that says that has 427 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: to be the case. It's just always been that way. Uh. 428 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: So they're they're in Belgium and they're taking meetings every 429 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: day and and and you know, answering the bat phone 430 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: when it rings. And then you've got your Military Committee, 431 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: and then you've got your what's the other one, the 432 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: nuclear the Nuclear Planning Group. Uh, And I guess the 433 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: military is sort of the link between all of these. 434 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: To make sure you know the military strategy is sound. Yeah, 435 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: because DATO likes to to publicize itself as a both 436 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 1: a military and a political organization. And it definitely is 437 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: like if you partner with NATO as a as a 438 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: partner country or if you remember like you're you're you're 439 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: engaged with them politically and they try to work things 440 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: out diplomatically like um. Very famously, one of the first 441 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: post Cold War missions that NATO embarked on was in 442 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: the Balkans. When war broke out there. UM in for 443 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: the former Yugoslavian states right back in the Wag the 444 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: Dog era. You remember that, of course? Yeah? Okay, so 445 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: um do you remember in the movie Wag the Dog? 446 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: Like that? Okay, so so, and then that happened basically 447 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: in real life. It was such a close resemblance to it. 448 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: I remember a reporter asking Bill Clinton, like, have you 449 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: ever seen the movie Wag the Dog, because like, the 450 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: Balkan NATO mission started like right as the Monica Lewinsky 451 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: Lewinsky scandal was heating up, And he said, it depends 452 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: on what your definition of scene is, right, I mean, 453 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna be able to tee off on that guy forever. Huh, 454 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: let's just cut that great. So the the so, they 455 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: NATO entered the Balkans um and tried to like work 456 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: everything out. There's a peacekeeping mission um, but there was 457 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: also obviously a lot of military operations is how they 458 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: kept the peace. But even still there's an ongoing Balkan 459 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: mission there and they're trying to sort out the still 460 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: the longstanding hostility and promote democracy in these groups. So 461 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: they are a political organization, but they're also really at 462 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: the end of the day, their military just the incredible 463 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: unrivaled might of the military combined military powers of the 464 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: thirty countries involved in NATO. It's it's you just can't 465 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: really look at it too many other ways. It's a 466 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: it's a huge military, that's right. Uh. And as far 467 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: as the the Main Committee goes, or the Main Council 468 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: it is headed, each country has their own ambassador. I 469 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: think we got a new and is that right? What's 470 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: her name, Julianne Smith, julian Smith. I want to say 471 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: Julianne Moore, just because boy, she would be great at that. 472 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: Sure we need more actors and roles like this, right 473 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: for sure? That's I mean, if any job, actors have 474 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: proven to be amazing politicians over the years, that's right. 475 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: And actor would never like to get up on stage 476 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: of the auctors and hit somebody. Man, I'm so disturbed 477 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: and just unsettled by that. It was very surreal. I 478 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: was actually not going to watch the Oscars this year 479 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: because I'm kind of over it, but for some reason 480 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: I watched, so I saw it live. Wow, that must 481 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: have been cereal, just like I think like everyone else thought. 482 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: It was a bit at first, and then when the 483 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: here in the United States the audio cut out, and 484 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: it was clear from Chris Rock. When he came back, 485 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, did that Did I just 486 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: see what I think I saw? Yeah, that's crazy. I 487 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: was telling you me. I couldn't find a clip with it, 488 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: but I wanted to see, like or here the ham 489 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: fisted way the conductor in the orchestra like tried to 490 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: play everything back out, you know, from the weird, uncomfortable, 491 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: awkward silence that just gripped the entire auditorium. I want 492 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: to know how they got out of that awkward silence, 493 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: because I'll bet it was equally well they didn't. He 494 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: had to give out. He was right in the middle 495 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: of giving out an award. Oh so he had to 496 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: continue on after that, Yes, dude, it was that joke 497 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: was before he even started giving out the award. You know, 498 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: when they go up there and just make jokes. So, 499 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that was one of the saddest things is 500 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: that he gave out the award for Best Documentary to 501 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: quest Love for his awesome documentary Summer of Soul, So like, 502 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like his mom is overshadowed. It 503 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: was jeez, what a train wreck. Anyway, off topic, Hey, 504 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: that's something we do sometimes, folks, We take tangents. Uh 505 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: should we talk a little bit about the funding of NATO. 506 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: I don't think you can get around that, chuck, just try. 507 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, let's let's talk about one other thing. 508 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: So where we are today before we hit finding? Okay, 509 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: so we're at what um what? Uh? Supreme Commander, Supreme 510 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: Allied Commander James Stavridis. And if you can't tell, I 511 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: like saying Supreme Allied Commander, you're not paying close enough attention. 512 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: But um what he calls NATO three point Oh, because 513 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: he's he's in the cyber security I guess. And NATO 514 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: three point is where we are today. And like I 515 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: was saying, you know, there's been a lot of talk 516 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: and movement towards NATO expansion, and some Russia experts are saying, 517 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, that's one of the main drivers, are one 518 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: of the big drivers for these invasions of Ukraine that 519 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: have taken place of the last less than ten years. Um. 520 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: But that aggression in response to NATO expansion or depending 521 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: on how you take it, just straight up Russian aggression. 522 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't matter if NATO is talking about bringing 523 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: Ukraine on and helping it become a democracy. You don't 524 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: go waste a city, you don't waste a country. You 525 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: don't gun down civilians, you don't bomb a theater where 526 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: you know hundreds of civilians are hiding out. You don't 527 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: do that. There's no justification for it, and you know, 528 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: damn you to hell for doing it, whoever you are. 529 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,239 Speaker 1: So that kind of aggression has actually, now, like we 530 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: were saying at the beginning of the episode, changed the 531 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: world order so dramatically that um, it's revived NATO. Like 532 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: all of that bickering, all of the inner ally you know, 533 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: dissent in UM in troubles and like what what's our purpose? 534 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: All of that has been just pushed right to the 535 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: back and all of a sudden, Europe in America are 536 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: friends again, europe as friends with one another again. UM, 537 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: and NATO is probably stronger than it has been in 538 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: the last thirty years, thanks to ironically vot Vladimir Putin. 539 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely, I mean yeah, I have. I've read a 540 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: lot about this and that doesn't seem to be like 541 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: a controversial hot take. Um. It seems to be fairly 542 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: indisputable that NATO is as UM as allied and as 543 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: and as together. It's it's been in decades, and it 544 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: couldn't have come at a better time because you know, 545 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if you noticed or not, but democracy 546 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: itself has been kind of under assault, and people were 547 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 1: wonder is the US up to the task of taking 548 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: that on? Is that Europe up to the task of 549 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: taking that on? And one of the main tenants of 550 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: NATO is promoting democracy not just around the world but 551 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: within its own countries, its own member nations, since a 552 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: lot of countries have had some kind of weird, weird 553 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: times that it's gone through where NATO has had to 554 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: basically call those countries out, I think Turkey most recently, 555 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: where it said, hey, you're a NATO member, we expect 556 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: you to uphold democracy and democratic values. Right, So it 557 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: promotes it not just around the world, but among member nations, 558 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: and that's a huge important point. And so this strengthening 559 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: of strengthening of NATO, and thus the strengthening of belief 560 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: and in placing value in the idea of democracy and 561 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: a willingness to defend democracy could not have come at 562 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: a more vital time. So in that sense, thank you 563 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. It's just a shame and very sad that 564 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: that had to come at the expense of the people 565 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. Agreed. Uh, so maybe we should take the 566 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: break now and we'll come back and talk about that funding, 567 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: previously mentioned funding right after this. George. Alright, so the 568 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: aforementioned NATO funding. And by the way, thanks to our 569 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: former colleagues at house stuff works dot com for the 570 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: the the original NATO article that kind of started down 571 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: this this road. But uh, there's a lot of misconceptions 572 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: about NATO funding and how that works. Uh. The official 573 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: guidelines say that member nations are expected to commit a 574 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: minimum of two percent of their GDP their gross domestic 575 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: product to spending on defense. But it's there's not a 576 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: uh because like I said, NATO, it's not loosey goosey. 577 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: But it's not like someone checks the books every year 578 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: and then goes to Luxembourg and says, Hi, you actually 579 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: spent this and this is what you owe. So if 580 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: you could just get the checked book out, uh and 581 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: make that up right now, that would be fantastic. Well, no, 582 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: there's no penalty. That's not how it works. Uh. And 583 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: I think um, only three members spent two percent of 584 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: their GDP or more on defense. I think the US 585 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: spends about three and a half. Is that the most 586 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: recent number? Uh? Yeah, as right, and um, everyone in 587 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: NATO has basically said, though, all right, we get it, 588 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: we'll we'll try and up our spending and we would 589 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: like to meet that goal in the next couple of 590 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: years here. Yeah, because again as NATO is like, what 591 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: are we doing here? Again? That really led to a 592 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: big decline in military spending, and that huge increase in 593 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: in military spending among europeanations of recent years has largely 594 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: been because of Vladimir Putin rattling a saber and then 595 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: actually following through on it. But one one thing, Chuck 596 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: that I think is really like important, that's a misconception 597 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: is we don't contribute three and a half percent of 598 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: our GDP to NATO. No, A lot of people think 599 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: that the requirement is that you as a nation spend 600 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: two percent on your own nation's defense. And then, because 601 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: you're all tethered together through this invisible alliance of NATO, 602 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: NATO combined has access to those thirty member nations defense 603 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: all what those defense budgets by which, when you add 604 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: it all up, is extremely substantial. Both an amount spent, 605 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: but also in like like what you get for that 606 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: kind of money. Yeah. I do think that some people 607 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: might think that everyone chips in this money to NATO 608 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: and that there are NATO forces and stuff like that. 609 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: That's not how it works. NATO's we do contribute to 610 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: run NATO with their you know, with their own budget. 611 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: But that's about two billion bucks two and that's just 612 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: day to day operations and uh, you know, logistics and 613 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: operations and keeping the headquarters nice tidy clean. Someone's gotta 614 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: clean those bathrooms. Uh. That's not a lot of money though, 615 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: But that two percent, right is spending on your own military. Uh, 616 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: it's actually apportioned out uh in the original I guess charters. 617 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: That what you say of the original agreement? Um the 618 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: what the treaty? Yeah, the treaty. It's right there, That's 619 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's so boring, it's keep wanting to 620 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: find a better name. Uh. There the apportionment for the 621 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: United States, our cost share is here in the US, 622 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: if you look at our g d P, it's about 623 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: the same size as the other twenty seven nations put together. 624 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: So it's not based on like how big in an 625 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: economy you have, because then we would be our apportion 626 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: it would be about fifty but it's twenty two. Yeah, right, 627 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: it does make sense. That's just for chipping into that 628 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: two billion dollars that keeps NATO operation operation already at 629 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: all times. That's not for US, it is um and 630 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: so the US is, as you know, far in a way. 631 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: We we spend on defense um I think almost three 632 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: times more than the other NATO nations combined. So we 633 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: spent about eight hundred and eleven billion dollars in one 634 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: and the rest of the NATO allies spend it combined 635 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty three billion, from I think the 636 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: UK's fifty nine point two billion down to North Macedonia's 637 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: hundred and eight million. But if you look at proportion 638 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: of g d P, there are plenty of nations who 639 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: go beyond that two percent, Like Grease actually spends more 640 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: of its GDP by percentage on defense than the United 641 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: States does. We spend three and a half percent. Grease 642 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: spends three point eight two, Crowa just two point seven nine, 643 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: The UK is two point two nine, Poland is two 644 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: point one. So plenty of nations have started topping that. 645 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: But that is a fairly new thing. Yeah, Like you 646 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: just can't look at NATO as a a thirty item 647 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: balance sheet, uh and say, well, this is a bad 648 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: deal because I'm looking at thirty different numbers of what 649 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: these countries contribute. It's it's much it's much more complex 650 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: than that. You have to look at it relative to 651 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: the size of the nation in their economies and overall spending. 652 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: It's it's frustrating. Say no, it really is. But when 653 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: you add it all up, what you have is a 654 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 1: combined in two thousand, twenty one, one point one seven 655 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: four trillion dollars among the NATO allies spent. That comes 656 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: to three and a half million troops who are committed 657 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: to NATO's alliance. Three and a half million troops. And 658 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 1: just that dollar amount alone, by the way, one point 659 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: one seven four trillion, that's basically more than the rest 660 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: of the world combined, and just the NATO allies, the 661 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: non US NATO allies spending is more than China and 662 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: Russia's defense budgets combined. So it's it's substantial not to 663 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: mention that three NATO members are nuclear powers allied together. Like, 664 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: so when you put all that stuff together, the idea 665 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: of NATO like being this stabilizing force in global security 666 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: makes total sense. It doesn't even have to do anything, 667 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: It just has to exist to keep things stable and 668 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: to promote democracy around the world and to reach out 669 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: to like formerly non democratic countries and say, hey, here's 670 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: how you become democratic. Here are the values. Let's see 671 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: if you can stick to them, if you want to 672 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: become a NATO member. Just from this kind of defense spending. 673 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of ingenious in a way. Well, it is, 674 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: and I think it's I think it's part of just 675 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: modern society to get complacent about our memories are so 676 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: short these days, I think, and there's so little um 677 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: acknowledgement and realization of like the history of the world 678 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: and not just like the last thirty to fifty years. 679 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: You know, there's been peace in Europe for about seventy 680 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: years now, and that's all anyone, you know, that's all 681 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: most people remember, unless you're like in your eighties, probably 682 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. That it's been previous to that, 683 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: there were a couple of millennia of of war in Europe, 684 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: and like the fact that NATO, and I think I 685 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: mean not not singly NATO, But I think NATO has 686 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: been the biggest driver of ensuring that piece over the 687 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: last seven decades. Yeah, I mean you're not the only one. 688 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: Like pretty much global security experts will will say, yes, 689 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: NATO has kept the world order stable for that long 690 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: and basically as long as it's been around. I think 691 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: it's just sad that I think the the short term 692 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: memory of how kind of people are today, it's like, 693 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, the could rules over. Do we really need 694 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: this stuff anymore? Yeah, But I mean it's tough to 695 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: blame people because again, it's like the world you grew 696 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: up into the world you're born, and then just the 697 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: relief of like, wow, democracy actually one, we actually did it. 698 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 1: We can just relax for once for a little while. 699 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: It was funny, Chuck, I was thinking today there are 700 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: plenty of people who I'm sure listen to our podcast 701 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: who have never lived under the threat of nuclear attack 702 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: and are now for the first time in their life. 703 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,879 Speaker 1: And I've settled back into it like it's an old 704 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: smoking jacket and some comfy slippers, you know, like this 705 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: is just like normal, normal stuff to me. And I realized, 706 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 1: like I wonder how many people out there super anxious 707 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 1: about that idea of dying in a nuclear attack, and UM, 708 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: all I can say is you get used to it, 709 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: you do you get used to to uh doing drills 710 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: in school where you would go get under your desk, hallway, 711 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: duck and cover because that would do a lot in 712 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: the case of a nuclear bomb. Or uh, you know, 713 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: watching Matthew Broderick bring us back from the brink of 714 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: nuclear war. What a hero, what a movie. So Chuck, 715 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: we should probably before we finish, we should probably talk 716 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: about the future of Ukraine and NATO, because, as we've 717 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: said a few times here, you know, Ukraine making moves 718 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,439 Speaker 1: towards becoming a NATO member and being like in deep 719 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: cahoots with NATO. UM has has created this situation, at 720 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: least in part where Russia's feeling like emboldened about invading 721 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: Ukraine to either put a stop to that or whatever 722 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: putin saying he's doing so. Um, if you've been paying 723 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: attention to the news of Voldemir Zelinski has been saying like, Okay, 724 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: we're we're we're willing to maybe start talking about neutrality now. 725 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: And what he's talking about has almost everything to do 726 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: with NATO, right, Yeah, I mean, neutrality isn't just a 727 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: isn't just something like just say, oh, you know, we're 728 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: we're neutral. We just don't feel that strong about anything 729 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: over here. Right, That's not what it means. Neutrality in 730 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: terms of the world order. I believe it means you 731 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: don't get involved in the third country's problem. It doesn't 732 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: mean you're like a nihilist Libski What was that? That 733 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: was my fleet? Okay, the one the Lincoln Berry pancakes. 734 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Neutrality means you won't get involved in the 735 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: third countries, uh issues. Isn't that right? Totally? Yeah, No 736 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: matter what like, So you wouldn't join NATO, you wouldn't 737 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: send arms, you wouldn't do anything like that, which, by 738 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: the way, I mean, since we said Ukraine is a 739 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: partner country, they're just getting a steady flow of arms 740 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: through Poland from NATO um allies. And it's been super 741 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,760 Speaker 1: effective from what I saw, because Russia is a tank 742 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: based military and the anti tank weaponry that we've been 743 00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: sending Ukraine and Ukraine has been using the great effect 744 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: has actually stalled stalled a hundred thousand Russian troops from 745 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: taking over Ukraine, which everybody thought was gonna happen in 746 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: a matter of days. Now they're finally backing off of Kiev. 747 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: It's just insane to even say it out loud. But um, 748 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: under neutrality, there would be no arms going from NATO 749 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: to Ukraine. UM. Russia would not be allowed to invade Ukraine. 750 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: Ukraine would be what Finland is. Finland has a huge 751 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: amount of border that it shares with um Russia, and 752 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: it serves as a buffer state between Europe and Russia. 753 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: It's not allied with Russia, it's not allied with Europe. 754 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: Finland's just its own jam. The proposal on the table 755 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: now is that Ukraine become like the southern Finland. It 756 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: will be a neutral state. It'll be its own sovereign democracy, 757 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: can do whatever it wants, but it can't join NATO 758 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: and it's not certainly going not going to be allied 759 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: with Russia, not after this invasion or ever, because of 760 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: its neutrality status. Yeah, and I think the idea at 761 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: first is that people thought, and it may have been 762 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: the case that Russia wanted to absorb Ukraine as part 763 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: of a building back uh maybe not a new Soviet Union, 764 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: but just expanding Russia. And that may have been the case. 765 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, but I think the last few weeks 766 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: it's become clear that that's not possible, and that like 767 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: occupation of Ukraine isn't possible, like long term occupation. So 768 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: it seems like neutrality may be the only way forward here. 769 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, definitely, I guess. I mean, yeah, 770 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,720 Speaker 1: it's you like, I can't imagine how difficult occupying Ukraine 771 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: would be for Russia, like over any period of time. 772 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: I don't think they have enough troops to do that, no, 773 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: And I mean the Ukrainians certainly have the will to 774 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: resist for as long as they need to to get 775 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: Russia out of there. So yeah, it's um, I I 776 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: feel like now that seems to be I think we 777 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: read an Al Jazeera article on it, right, Yeah, it 778 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: was super interesting. They talked a lot about how, you know, 779 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,720 Speaker 1: not all pro Russian sentiment in Ukraine has been dissolved, 780 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: because there there was some obviously, but uh, this has 781 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: done a lot of damage to that. Oh yeah, I'm 782 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: sure anybody who's on the fence before is like, Okay, 783 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: I'm not Russian or even considering pro Russian anymore. But 784 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 1: that does seem to be that and this is you know, 785 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: obviously up to Ukraine. But if Zelinski is making gestures 786 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: and overture saying we're willing to talk about neutrality, um, 787 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: it seems like that could be their decision. But um again, 788 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: global security experts, at least ones that were quoted in 789 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: Al Jazeera are are saying like this is actually probably 790 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,919 Speaker 1: the most viable and quick, short term or like at 791 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: hand solution to ending this invasion and actually stabilizing things 792 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: again for a while. That's right. That article, by the way, 793 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: is Ukraine, what does neutrality mean? And could it lead 794 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: to peace? From Thomas oh Falk And that was just 795 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: from a few weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, 796 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: And in addition to how stuff works in the Al 797 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,320 Speaker 1: Jazeera article, we got stuff from Brooking's, the Brennan's Center, 798 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: Time BBC and a bunch of other ones to Sesame Street. 799 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:12,360 Speaker 1: This is definitely one of the u is for up yours, um. 800 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: And this is one of those definite moments in in 801 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 1: history that it's worth paying attention to. So if this 802 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: this our episode struck your fancy it all, go go 803 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: read up on it because it's there's a lot of 804 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,800 Speaker 1: really interesting and important stuff to read literally, the world 805 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 1: has changed in the last couple of months more than 806 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: it has in years. Since two thousand one, I would say, 807 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: since two thousand one, are you got anything else? I 808 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: don't think so. Okay, Well, if you want to know 809 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: more about NATO, you can go check that out online. 810 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 1: And since I said check that out online, everybody, it's 811 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: time for listener mail. That's right, I thought, why not, 812 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: let's read one from a brand new listener. Uh, this 813 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 1: is the first episode they listened to, and I have 814 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,280 Speaker 1: foretold the future with his email. Wow, we uh just kidding. 815 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: Hey guys. Last week, though, I found out about your podcast, uh, 816 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: and I'm loving it. I become tired of the radio 817 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: so decided to start looking at podcast for my work commute, 818 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: and yours caught my eyes. It looked interesting without being 819 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: too heavy, educational, but not as depressing as the news. 820 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: Perfect nice Okay. I was waiting for a response. Well, 821 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, nice, was my response. I'll take it. 822 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: You two make a great pair and work off each 823 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: other seamlessly. When I listen, I cannot help but think 824 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 1: of you two as a mash up of burten Ernie 825 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: and SNL's The Delicious Dish okay, and a gasto Shannon, 826 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: So I will respond to that part because, um, that 827 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 1: is probably the greatest description anyone's ever come up with 828 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: for it, wetty balls. I mean that in the most 829 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 1: complimentary way, by the way. I love it and it 830 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,520 Speaker 1: works so darnwell obviously, since the show is going strong 831 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: for years now, thank you for noticing. I just wanted 832 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 1: to reach out and saying thanks for saving me from 833 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,720 Speaker 1: boring radio and crazy news and helping my mind grow 834 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: while being entertained. And that is from Samantha Burns Maloney. Well, 835 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: thanks Samantha. We really appreciate that. That was a great email. Seriously, 836 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: the best descriptor I've ever heard. Yeah, if you're new 837 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,799 Speaker 1: to the podcast, or you're a long timer, or you 838 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,480 Speaker 1: email every week, we want to hear from you. You 839 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: can send us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeart 840 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 841 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 842 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 843 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.