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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker alongside Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 2: and Body Move in and we have an exceptional show tonight.

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Speaker 2: It's Thursday, August fourteenth, and listen, we have the person,

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Speaker 2: the rock star of crime and forensics. Our first guest

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Speaker 2: is the retired FBI Profiler in forensics linguist James R.

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Speaker 3: Fitzgerald.

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Speaker 2: He's really the person who has solved so many crimes.

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Speaker 2: You'll remember him from the Unibomber, also Jean Benet Ramsey,

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Speaker 2: the DC Sniper, and also the Anthrax attacks. He also

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Speaker 2: is shown in the Netflix documentary Manhunt the Unibomber. Make

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Speaker 2: sure you check that out. It's a scripted series, and

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Speaker 2: also the host of the Cold Red podcast. So listen,

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Speaker 2: you wear many many hats, but you are the person.

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Speaker 2: He is the guy who really has taken language and

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Speaker 2: turned it into the science that has solved so much.

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Speaker 2: So James, we are so grateful to have you here.

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Speaker 3: Well body, Steph and Courtney, it's great to be here too.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me to true crime tonight. It

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Speaker 3: is nighttime for me, and it's a good time to

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Speaker 3: discuss true crime. And that's why I'm here.

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Speaker 4: I'm freaking out a little bit. I'm gonna tell you

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Speaker 4: right now, Fits just said my name, like.

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Speaker 5: I'm freaking out just a little bit. I might be

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Speaker 5: stand girling a little too hard.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if if he knows like the instrumental

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Speaker 4: effect that he's had on my life, and I'm.

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Speaker 5: Getting a little bit clemmed. I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 4: I don't think he understands how important his work in

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Speaker 4: forensic linguistics.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you I learned about this after the Actually

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Speaker 3: it was Discovery Channel mini series or scripted series. It's

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Speaker 3: technically not a documentary Manhunt, un obamber. And then of

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Speaker 3: course I went over to Netflix a few months after

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Speaker 3: it aired in the late summer and early fall of

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen. Seems like so long ago. But yeah, I

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Speaker 3: don't think I was even on Twitter before that. I

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Speaker 3: know now it's X but then Twitter and that people

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Speaker 3: will Discovery, you know, the publicity people. Yeah, yeah, get on,

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Speaker 3: get on, and the stuff that was coming out afterwards

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Speaker 3: about every episode I had, someone had to tell me

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Speaker 3: what the definition of fangirl was. And these people are

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Speaker 3: going back and forth on Facebook on Twitter. And there's

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Speaker 3: one woman that every time I would come on she

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Speaker 3: heard my voice on different podcasts, she'd get out Fits.

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Speaker 3: Then she said, but she named her dog Fits, and

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Speaker 3: he'd start barking. So I'm watching these tweets come across,

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Speaker 3: and I say, boy, is it a good thing or

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Speaker 3: a bad thing when someone names their dog after you?

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Speaker 3: So I took it.

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Speaker 5: Still, It's an honor.

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Speaker 4: Definitely a good thing. So I'm gonna jump right into it.

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna jump right into it. Forensic linguist and former

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Speaker 4: FBI agent. We're gonna call him Fits per his request,

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Speaker 4: but I have severe, massive respect for him. His name

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Speaker 4: is James Fitzgerald. He played a pivotal pivotal role in

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Speaker 4: solving the Unibomber case by analyzing the language used in

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Speaker 4: the Unibomber's manifesto and other writings over a seventeen year period.

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Speaker 4: Ted Kazinski, also known as the Unibomber, mailed or hand

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Speaker 4: delivered a series of increasingly sophisticated bombs, killing three people

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Speaker 4: and injuring at least two dozen more throughout the United States.

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Speaker 4: Fitz was able to definitively link the domestic terrorist to

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Speaker 4: the crimes by identifying unique linguistic patterns in the unibomber's

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Speaker 4: manifesto and personal writings, marking one of the first major

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Speaker 4: uses of forensic linguistics in a high profile criminal investigation.

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Speaker 4: And if you know anything about me, you know that

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Speaker 4: my big motto is the Internet is the new crime scene.

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Speaker 4: And with a lot of our communication style happening over

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Speaker 4: Twitter or x and Facebook and you know, tiktoks and

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Speaker 4: YouTube comments and whatnot. In my work I use basically

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Speaker 4: his patterns of recognition to figure things out. And he

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Speaker 4: has been an instrumental role model for me, as you know,

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Speaker 4: a web sluth, so to speak. And he was very

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Speaker 4: instrumental in learning how to I used his work to

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Speaker 4: find Luca Magnata. Of course, Luca Magnata killed jun Lynn

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Speaker 4: in Montreal of twenty twelve, and James Fitz and I

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Speaker 4: don't even know if he knows this, but Fits is

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Speaker 4: a key factor in that. So thank you Fitz for

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Speaker 4: all of your work. I'm going to give a little

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Speaker 4: bit of case background on ninabaumer Ted Kaczynski. He was

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Speaker 4: a Harvard educated mathema at its prodigy and former UC

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Speaker 4: Berkeley professor who became a reclusive hermit. He lived off

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Speaker 4: the grid in a cabin in Montreal, where he would

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Speaker 4: construct his homemade bombs. Kazinsky carried out a nationwide bombing

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Speaker 4: campaign from nineteen seventy eight to nineteen ninety five, killing

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Speaker 4: three individuals and injuring twenty three others. He targeted universities, airlines,

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Speaker 4: and individuals involved with modern technology. Investigators later learned that

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Speaker 4: the victims were targeted randomly from library research. The FBI

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Speaker 4: investigation into the crimes was dubbed unibomb derived from University

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Speaker 4: and Airline Bombing. Due to the early targets and attacks.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety five, Kazinski demanded that his thirty five

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Speaker 4: thousand word manifesto, it was called The Industrial Society and

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Speaker 4: its Future, he published in nationwide newspapers or he would

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Speaker 4: continue his attacks. And that's where we meet fit, right,

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Speaker 4: So the manifesto gets published and now and now the

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Speaker 4: FBI has thirty five thousand words paragraphs, sentences, and history

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Speaker 4: to learn about the Unibomber, and boy did they learn

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Speaker 4: about the Unibomber. So we're going to get right into it.

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Speaker 4: Fitz's linguistic analysis help confirm the match, contributing to a

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Speaker 4: search warrant that led to the arrest of Ted Kazinski

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Speaker 4: on April third, nineteen ninety six. So, Fitz, thank you

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Speaker 4: so much for joining us. We're so lucky to have you.

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Speaker 4: The Unibomber is one of the most famous examples of

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Speaker 4: language cracking, and in a case, what made Ted Kazinski's

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Speaker 4: manifesto stand out linguistically?

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, yeah, this all brings back memories

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Speaker 3: because it was thirty years ago this month that I

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Speaker 3: showed up at Unibomb, actually July of nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 3: So but the memories are all there. I wrote a

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Speaker 3: Journey to the Center of the Mind, my now four

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Speaker 3: parts memoir series. In book three, I spent two hundred

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Speaker 3: pages discussing my role in the Unibomb case. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was a police officer for eleven years in suburban Philadelphia,

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Speaker 3: an FBI agent in New York City, working bank robbers, extortions, kidnappings,

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Speaker 3: and I used all kinds of evidence to put bad

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Speaker 3: guys in jail, and you know fingerprints, and of course

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Speaker 3: you know tire tread marks and the early days of

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Speaker 3: DNA starting in the nineties, you know, you could use

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Speaker 3: that type of analysis. But what we're finding with the

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Speaker 3: unibomber and got what I found when I was assigned

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Speaker 3: to the unibomb Task Force in July of ninety five,

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Speaker 3: was that they had no evidence at all on his

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Speaker 3: documents and as well as on any of the devices,

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Speaker 3: any of the improvised explosive devices aka bombs. And I

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Speaker 3: then realized, and this guy's been getting away with us

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Speaker 3: for seventeen years, I said to myself and others in

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Speaker 3: the room with me when I first showed up, I said,

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Speaker 3: we have to start, you know, deep diving into this

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Speaker 3: thirty five thousand word, fifty six page, single space document

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Speaker 3: has never been associated with any case before, or nothing

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Speaker 3: like this with any case. Of course, other kidnappings have

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Speaker 3: had a note here, a note there, and the investigators

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Speaker 3: do their best and put something together. But now we

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Speaker 3: have this treasure trove of information of all these words

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Speaker 3: and all these pages, and it's so idiosyncratically written. It's

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Speaker 3: laid out like a nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties thesis or

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Speaker 3: dissertation with even a corrections page up front, you know

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Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty or a typewriter. So the author was

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Speaker 3: being consistent the unibomber with his anti technology, you know,

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Speaker 3: screed there in terms of no computers, no copies, used

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Speaker 3: carbon copies, and your younger viewers won't even know what

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Speaker 3: carbon paper is. You guys probably don't know what car

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Speaker 3: idea is, but you underneath other pieces of paper and

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Speaker 3: it makes copies when you type over it. So anyway,

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Speaker 3: you know, that's how he sent his various copies out.

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Speaker 3: So but you've got just a little bit ahead there.

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Speaker 3: I showed up in early July of ninety five, and

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Speaker 3: the big debate was do we accede to the demands

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Speaker 3: of this terrist? Do we publish this thing? And if

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Speaker 3: any of you or your audience has seen the movie

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Speaker 3: Twelve Angry Men in the Jewelry Room, and you know,

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Speaker 3: everyone thinks the guy's guilty except one guy. And you

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Speaker 3: know Henry Fond of the original movie critic, a critical thinker,

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Speaker 3: And that's kind of how it was with about eight

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Speaker 3: of us when the unibomb Task Force, when we went

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Speaker 3: in the room that first day with his demand, and

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Speaker 3: everyone's saying no, no, no, we can't print this thing.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we're every other nutcase out there will

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Speaker 3: want to do it. And I said, guys, I think

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Speaker 3: we're rushing to a decision here, I said, there, I've

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Speaker 3: had a few days just now to just go over.

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Speaker 3: There's such much there's I won't say unique, but there's

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Speaker 3: such highly distinctive and idiosyncratic writing here worded she's using

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Speaker 3: and I don't even pick up the linguistic smoking gun yet.

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Speaker 3: But you can't eat your cake and have it too.

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Speaker 3: So but I'm still looking through it, said we got

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Speaker 3: to get this published. Someone out there, a former professor,

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Speaker 3: a former student, an editor somewhere, you know, maybe a

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Speaker 3: family member that was in there. And one by one

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Speaker 3: over the next week and a half, people in the

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Speaker 3: Unibomb task for if it's you may be onto something

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Speaker 3: there again. I was just part of a team. Other

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Speaker 3: people in the in the UTF for short were doing

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Speaker 3: their jobs too, because I found something highly distinctive on

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Speaker 3: the flight out to Unibomb that in the second letter

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Speaker 3: the Unibomber ever wrote in nineteen eighty five to Professor

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Speaker 3: McConnell at the University of Michigan. It was a trick

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Speaker 3: letter to get the people to open up the device,

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Speaker 3: which in fact then would explode and hopefully kill someone. Well,

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Speaker 3: I look down the left hand column and found the

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Speaker 3: words dad it is. I.

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Speaker 5: I remember.

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Speaker 3: That's an It's called an acrostic in literary terms. I

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Speaker 3: didn't even know that term back then, but I.

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Speaker 4: Used to do that with a friends letter of the

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Speaker 4: of these each paragraph okay, and then the line dad

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Speaker 4: it is. I.

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Speaker 3: I took that to the boss Jim Freeman was his

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Speaker 3: name of the UNIBOMB Task Force, and I said, hey,

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Speaker 3: I just said, casually, Yeah, what do you guys think

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Speaker 3: of this data design? What are you talking about? Well,

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Speaker 3: this nineteen eighty five, ten year old letter, what do

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Speaker 3: you guys? You know, think no one's ever seen that before?

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Speaker 3: Come in here, Fitzgerkook and he put me on a

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Speaker 3: speakerphone with the Attorney General's office. I'm talking to her people,

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Speaker 3: Jennet realmless people. And after that call was ended, said fits,

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Speaker 3: you're in charge of all the documents on this case. Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think I've ever even used the word

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Speaker 3: linguist in my life. I had a master's in psychology,

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Speaker 3: you know, I had advanced degrees whatever, but but really

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Speaker 3: nothing formally with language analysis. But all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: I was put in charge of it. And that's when

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Speaker 3: I said earlier. No other evidence in this case except

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Speaker 3: the composite sketch of course, with the aviator glasses and

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Speaker 3: the hoodie, and that was the only evidence the UNIBOMB

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Speaker 3: Task Force had. I said, guys, there's something in here.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to mind this, and Eric fitz it's yours.

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Speaker 3: You run with it. And I started coming up, you know,

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Speaker 3: every few days with something a little bit here, a

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Speaker 3: little bit there, a spelling, a phraseology, and I you know.

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Speaker 3: And at the same time, when I got there in

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Speaker 3: the summer of ninety five, there were twenty five hundred suspects,

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Speaker 3: some named, some unnamed, and I'm and the ones that

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Speaker 3: are named, and they can get you know, they do

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Speaker 3: background checks on them, They put FBI surveillance teams on them.

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Speaker 3: No one's rights are being violated, but we're certainly watching

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Speaker 3: what they're doing in public, all this stuff. And they

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Speaker 3: would get some writings of these people and send them

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Speaker 3: to me. In my early days of doing you know,

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Speaker 3: forensic linguistic analysis. I would just look at the manifesto.

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Speaker 3: I'd look at these writings of these suspects. No, no, no,

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Speaker 3: and anyway. Finally, September nineteenth, just not too long from

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Speaker 3: the time we're doing our chat year and True Crime Tonight,

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Speaker 3: thirty years ago, is when it finally was published in

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Speaker 3: the Washington Post. And then we got all these new

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Speaker 3: leads coming in. I can't tell you how many neighbors

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Speaker 3: were suspected, how many ex husbands were suspected.

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Speaker 5: Thought we're going to cut the break.

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Speaker 4: When we come back, fitz is going to continue diving

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Speaker 4: into the unibomber case and maybe some other suspects.

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Speaker 5: Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight. We're talking true

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Speaker 5: crime all.

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Speaker 6: The time, and we have the greatest guest right now,

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Speaker 6: James Fitzgerald. He's one of the people who actually solved

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Speaker 6: the unibomber case, as well as many many more. Sorry, fitz,

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Speaker 6: we didn't mean to cut you off, but continue with

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Speaker 6: what you were saying.

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Speaker 3: I had one person called the eight hundred number that

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Speaker 3: was set up for the unibomb Task Force, and we're

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Speaker 3: getting dozens of calls a day, and they finally the guy,

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Speaker 3: the operator calls me and says, fitz you want to

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Speaker 3: talk to this one. Oh well, okay, hello, Agent Fitzgerald.

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Speaker 3: And the first thing she said was hello, I slept

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Speaker 3: with the unibomber and I'm here to help you. What wow.

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Speaker 3: And he's one of those where you get pull the

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Speaker 3: phone away from your face, look at it, you know,

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Speaker 3: the old landlines, and I see, all right, I don't

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Speaker 3: need those deep nails. But how do you know this guy?

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Speaker 3: And here, twenty plus years ago she was in college,

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Speaker 3: this wacky guy and all these you know, ideology, philosophy

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Speaker 3: regarding you know, in the evils of the technological society,

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Speaker 3: and she thought it was him. She didn't remember his name. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: she had a book that the guy gave her and

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Speaker 3: she kept all these years. And she never saw him again,

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Speaker 3: never saw his car, no tag, she described them, looks

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Speaker 3: a little bit like the composite sketch. Anyway, we took

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Speaker 3: the book off her, got fingerprints from it. Nothing matched up.

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Speaker 3: It was not the unibomber. So she called me later

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Speaker 3: that she was kind of disappointed she never slept with

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Speaker 3: the unibomber. But I said, well, I'm sorry to disappoint

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Speaker 3: you too. In that regard. Yeah, yeah, so anyway, but

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Speaker 3: other leads came in and then it was published and you,

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Speaker 3: your audience probably knows the rest. A guy in upstate

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Speaker 3: New York, his wife was a college professor. She read

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Speaker 3: it online the first time the FBI ever used the

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Speaker 3: internet to help solve a crime, because they published a

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Speaker 3: manifesto on it, and we currently encouraged that at the

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Speaker 3: task Force. And the guy named David Kazinski saw it

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Speaker 3: and he didn't want to believe it was his brother,

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Speaker 3: but he couldn't help, but finally come to the conclusion

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Speaker 3: it probably was. They got a lawyer, they had someone

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Speaker 3: look at a few documents. They started sending us documents

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Speaker 3: they kept over the year David and his mother one

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Speaker 3: hundred and seventy eight ted Kaczinski daughter, letters, poet, name,

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Speaker 3: short stories, essays, all these things that he wrote and

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Speaker 3: sent to David, his brother and his mother, And luckily

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Speaker 3: they were pack rats. Sometimes that's a bad thing, but

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Speaker 3: for us trying to catch the unibomber, it was a

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Speaker 3: good thing. And it turns out they had over one

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Speaker 3: hundred and seventy five or so documents, all written by

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Speaker 3: their son slash brother Teddy, and they were all coming

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Speaker 3: my way, and I started doing the analysis with my

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Speaker 3: five person team and it finally started coming together.

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Speaker 4: And so you're you're reading this manifesto and you mentioned

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Speaker 4: you were from Philadelphia, you were a cop in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 4: and you're looking at this manifesto. It's thirty five thousand words,

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Speaker 4: and you know, people from Philadelphia have a unique way

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Speaker 4: of speaking. I love the Philadelphian accent, by the way,

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Speaker 4: the same here here's phil Yeah, here's to Philly, Philadelphia freedom,

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Speaker 4: let's do it.

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Speaker 5: So you're looking for.

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Speaker 4: Something that is going to when you're looking at this manifesto,

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Speaker 4: you're looking for kind of an accent, not really, I mean,

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Speaker 4: not a speaking accent, but you're looking for something.

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Speaker 5: Unique to tell you about who this person is.

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Speaker 4: And in manhunt, we learned that this was water because

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Speaker 4: people in Philadelphia say water instead of water.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So you're looking for something unique, anything unique, in this manifesto,

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Speaker 4: and you found one. What did you find?

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Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't so much a regionalism. First of all,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't regional contact. Right. That's fine, But I understand exactly.

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Speaker 3: In linguistics we call it ideo elect. It's a term

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Speaker 3: other people have coined before me, and it's really a

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Speaker 3: personal dialect and it manifests both spoken language and in

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Speaker 3: written language. And the people are listening to me right now,

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Speaker 3: they could probably you know, pick up some of my

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Speaker 3: Philadelphia regionalisms which are all incorporated within my ideo elect

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Speaker 3: go go Philadelphia iggles, as they would say whenever I

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Speaker 3: crossed the bridge and the water to get to the stadium.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, all those things come together. And I did

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Speaker 3: meet a professor who just retired from Georgetown University's linguistics department,

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Speaker 3: and I did talk to him before I went out there.

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Speaker 3: He was given an advanced copy of the manifesto and

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Speaker 3: he pointed out a few things that maybe this person

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Speaker 3: grew up in Chicago and you know, approximate age and

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Speaker 3: you know, white male. But he didn't even rule out

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Speaker 3: it could be a black mail and I said, all right,

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Speaker 3: well thanks. I thought, hey, it's very interesting with this

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Speaker 3: guy who's spent a career studying and teaching linguistics, you

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Speaker 3: know what he can pick up from these thirty five

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Speaker 3: thousand words. Let me see if I can borrow from that.

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Speaker 3: And you know, even in not formally educated in the

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Speaker 3: world of linguistics, still let me put something out there

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Speaker 3: that I could help my fellow investigators. So I'm reading

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Speaker 3: this thing day in and day out. Sometimes I would

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Speaker 3: come in the morning and purposely start in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the manifesto, so I'm fresh. But I'm looking at

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Speaker 3: some of the keywords, some of the archaic terms. He

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Speaker 3: would use words like negro to represent you know, black people,

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Speaker 3: chicks and broads to describe women, none, you know, very nicer.

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Speaker 3: But this is the mindset this guy had. And he's

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Speaker 3: never talking about family or kids. So we're thinking, all right,

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Speaker 3: maybe this guy is not married and doesn't have kids.

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Speaker 3: I mean they would He would talk about young children,

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Speaker 3: how they're educated, things, but nothing that he would like

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Speaker 3: personalize it. So we're starting to build this profile. And

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Speaker 3: there's one letter I read that he not only bombed

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Speaker 3: a Yale professor named David Glertner and tore off part

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Speaker 3: of his hand, but then he about a month or

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Speaker 3: two later, he sent him rubbing salt in the wound,

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Speaker 3: a snarky letter criticizing him for his vomit with the

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Speaker 3: computer science etc. Etc.

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Speaker 5: This is true.

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Speaker 4: Current tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Boddy Move and I'm here

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Speaker 4: with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and the wonderful Jeames

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Speaker 4: fitz Fitzgerald, and we want to hear from you. Hit

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Speaker 4: us up on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 3: He wrote, in the beginning of this letter, I guess

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Speaker 3: you think people without advanced degrees don't count. And then

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Speaker 3: about the next paragraph down in almost the same language, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I guess people without college degrees aren't important. I'm paraphrasing,

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Speaker 3: but the words are in my book, the third book.

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Speaker 3: I said, wait a minute, this unibomber guy is working

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Speaker 3: so hard not to be identified. Why would he give

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Speaker 3: us even a little clue that Number one, he's not

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Speaker 3: a college graduate. Number two, he doesn't have an advanced degree.

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Speaker 3: And that's when it hit me. No, he's flipping the

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Speaker 3: coin on us. He's the the antithesis of that, not

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Speaker 3: exactly opposite. But this guy has an advanced degree. People

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Speaker 3: were saying before he was, and that it was a

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Speaker 3: countermeasure on his part, a forensic countermeasure using language. And

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Speaker 3: that's when we first said, you know what, when I said,

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Speaker 3: this guy, let's bring his education level up. He is

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Speaker 3: not only a college graduate, he most likely has at

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Speaker 3: least one advanced degree. Maybe he's ABD, which is all

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Speaker 3: but dissertation. But you know, he wants to get published.

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Speaker 3: And this guy is a lot smarter than we think.

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Speaker 3: He also wrote in another letter to the New York

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Speaker 3: Times that he's tired of going into the Sierra Nevadas.

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Speaker 3: You know at nights and on weekend weekend is to

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Speaker 3: practice is bomb making, which we know serial bombers do,

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Speaker 3: that they have to practice their bomb somewhere. But we said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: he's not going to this yer in Nevada's and he's

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Speaker 3: making it sound like he has a full time job

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Speaker 3: where he only has nights and weekends free. No, this

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Speaker 3: guy doesn't have a job, and we narrowed it down

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Speaker 3: in that regard. Again no name and address. But the while,

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Speaker 3: I was slowly being altered and changed, certainly when I

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Speaker 3: got out to the unibomb task for all these factors.

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Speaker 3: But I know what your original question was in a

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Speaker 3: paragraph one five as I'm reading through it of the manifesto. Yes,

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Speaker 3: he numbered every paragraph in the manifesto up to two

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Speaker 3: hundred and twelve. Then there are a bunch of notes

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Speaker 3: after that that he numbered twenty six separate notes. I

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Speaker 3: think at the end of the manifesto. So it went

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Speaker 3: on and on and there at the end of paragraph five,

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Speaker 3: gotta the environment, this evils up technology that But then

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Speaker 3: it ends with but you can't eat your cake and

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Speaker 3: have it too?

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Speaker 5: And why was that important?

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Speaker 3: Well, the first time I read through it, it wasn't important.

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Speaker 3: Good question, But then you know, the next morning I

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Speaker 3: came in started halfway through a paragraph, you know, one

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Speaker 3: twenty five or something, and I get to that. So

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Speaker 3: wait a minute, you can't eat your That's not how

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Speaker 3: it said.

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Speaker 5: It's not how it's right.

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Speaker 3: Right. We all grew up saying you can't have your

403
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Speaker 3: cake and eat it too. And there was no internet

404
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Speaker 3: searches back then, or at least none that I knew about.

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Speaker 3: I certainly went to I had our FBI library people

406
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Speaker 3: do some research. I found an old four season song

407
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Speaker 3: where they say you can't have your cake and eat

408
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Speaker 3: it too. Bob Dylan's Lay Lady Lay. He uses those

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Speaker 3: exact words, you can't have your cake and need it too.

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Speaker 3: But for some reason, the unibomber transposes the two verbs

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Speaker 3: and he writes it you can't eat your cake and

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Speaker 3: have it too. And I went to someone in the

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Speaker 3: task force. Hey, did you guys see Oh yeah, we

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Speaker 3: saw that. No big deal. Well no, it is kind

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Speaker 3: of a big deal. Well it did. It gave me

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Speaker 3: a feeling, you know, based on my brief meeting with

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Speaker 3: the linguistics professor before. I said, this is something I

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Speaker 3: don't know what the word word to be, but I

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Speaker 3: don't like to use the word you need because that

420
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Speaker 3: literally means one of a kind. But this is highly idiosyncratic.

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Speaker 3: And all the books, all the searching I could do

422
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Speaker 3: back then, no one found an example of you can't

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Speaker 3: eat your cake and have it too, only the Unibomber's manifesto.

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Speaker 3: And I was so proud of myself because this guy

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Speaker 3: was a wordsmith. He made no mistakes. Now, he would

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Speaker 3: x out some words because it was a manual typewriter

427
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 3: and he can't go and delete and paste and all

428
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 3: the things everyone does today. But other than that, he

429
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 3: was he wrote his sentences perfectly, grammatically aligned and independent clauses,

430
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 3: independent complex sentences. But here I said, no, what he

431
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 3: screwed up? He put the verb in the wrong place.

432
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 3: But guess what, he had it right, going back to

433
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 3: fifteenth century early modern English. And it was actually that's

434
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 3: how that expression was first used by some anonymous unknown

435
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 3: but we weren't even there yet. That wasn't even important

436
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: to us yet. So all these suspects writings are coming in.

437
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: We didn't know. This guy named David Kaczinsky in upstate

438
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: New York is fretting over this thing with his brother

439
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 3: who lives in a cabin in Montana. But you know,

440
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 3: he claims his brother wouldn't hurt a fly, but he

441
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: eventually does contact the police. Writings start coming in of

442
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 3: Tedcazski and I'm the first one to look at a

443
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: twenty three page facsimile. And the younger people here ask

444
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 3: your parents what a fax machine is. But they would

445
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: print out documents and people could send from one location

446
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 3: to another. I'm looking at it, you can say that,

447
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: But a phone call came in first. Fits for faxing

448
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: you a twenty three page document. Because now I'm back

449
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: in Quantico. Remember I'm a brand new profiler in Quantico,

450
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 3: and I go for a twelve week training block in

451
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: the spring of ninety five. John Douglas, a mindhunter fame,

452
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 3: is just retiring and he gives a two hour presentation

453
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: on the unibomb case. Of course I'm listening but I

454
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: have no idea what's next for me. I go on

455
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 3: a two week vacation to hang out with my family.

456
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 3: Get a phone call from Quantica. Hey, Fits, do you

457
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: want to go to San Francisco for thirty days work

458
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 3: to help with UNIBOM. I said, I don't really know

459
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: anything about the case. That's all right. They want a profiler.

460
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: No one else is available. You're new, okay, sure, never

461
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: been to San France before, and lo and off.

462
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: Hould that thought seconds minds, Well, you're going to come

463
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: right back. This is true crime tonight and stick with us.

464
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 5: So Fitz, continue with what you were saying.

465
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, I'm in the middle of

466
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 3: this case, experienced investigator, brand new profile, but with twelve

467
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: weeks of intensive training, but never having done anything before linguistically.

468
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 3: But now this is what I'm being passed with. So

469
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: again I go back to Quantico. My bosses are just

470
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 3: going to get to know me. There. Oh, here's a

471
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 3: serial case from here. There's a serial rape case from here.

472
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 3: Fitz start working these, but my buddies in San France

473
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 3: started sending me stuff, a few of them. I said, no,

474
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 3: that's not the writer. Keep going though, Fits, here's something else,

475
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: twenty three pages. What do you think? And I looked

476
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 3: over it. I got my marking pens out, had my

477
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: dog eared cop of the manifesto I brought with me,

478
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: going for like three and a half hours, turning page

479
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 3: after page, and I realized this was this matched up

480
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: as closely as anything I've seen before in terms of

481
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: any of the suspects we've already had in the unibomb case.

482
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: So I called the boss back in San Francisco and said,

483
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 3: it's one of two things. This is an elaborate plagiarism.

484
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: Someone got the manifesto, which was published on September nineteenth,

485
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: and the Washington Post and they sit down with an

486
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: old typewriter and just you know, like outlined it or

487
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 3: you've got your man and they said, fits, we know

488
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: it's not a plagiarism. You're coming back to San Francisco.

489
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: So I was on a flight a few days later,

490
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 3: and I was working six days a week before that.

491
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: Now I'm working seven days a week, fifteen hours a

492
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 3: day towards the end. But it was my job, with

493
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 3: my five person team to finally put together the probable cause.

494
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: Affi David and we did six hundred examples of unibomb sentences, clauses, phrases,

495
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 3: and the same number of Ted Kazinski writings. Column guy, yeah,

496
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 3: two columns on each page, fifty pages long. Sent that

497
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: off to a judge in Montana. He reviewed it, thought

498
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: about it. We heard later, and said, well, I've never

499
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: used language before to approve a search warrant. But actually,

500
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: I'll let me back up. I want to ahead up

501
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 3: myself here. The prosecutor assigned the case liked what I

502
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: was doing, but he said, Fitz, we need that smoking gun.

503
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 3: I said, all right, I'm looking for we need something,

504
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 3: if not unique, certainly highly distinctive or idiosyncratic. Finally, and

505
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 3: I'll never forget we were. I was the one first

506
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 3: one seeing the Ted documents. These are the documents I

507
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: referenced drawer from his mother and his brother. We're up

508
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 3: to t one thirty seven. There's only been already been

509
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty six Ted Kaczinski documents that we reviewed,

510
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: and we mined for every bit of information in there.

511
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: And here comes a letter to the editor. So I

512
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: think it was Saturday Evening magazine from the early nineteen seventies,

513
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: long defunct. You know, monthly periodical whatever, and YadA YadA,

514
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 3: the environment, the evils of technology, pollution. And then at

515
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,959
Speaker 3: the very end, but you can't eat your cake and

516
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 3: have it too, Signed Theodore J. Kazinski in Chicago, Illinois.

517
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 3: I actually fell out of my chair. I fell out

518
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 3: of my chair. I had witnessed. I said, guys, what

519
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 3: paragraph was that? I actually memorized some of the paragraph numbers.

520
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: Dig it out there, and I had to hold it

521
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: up in front of me. Can't eat your cake, you

522
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: can't eat your cake. Then there it is twice. Then

523
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 3: this letter from Ted Kaczinski, and I went to the prosecutor.

524
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: We got the bosses together. I said, guys, you wanted

525
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: the linguistic smoking gun. This is it. The other stuff

526
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: is really good. This is uh, this is this is

527
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: the best. And that was, of course one of the

528
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 3: major parts in there. And in the mini series. You know,

529
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: that was like a last minute thing that the Fits

530
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 3: character found, you know, hours before the judge is going

531
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: to go home and and whatever. It was actually a

532
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: few days before that that, or maybe a week I

533
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: should say before that, that we were ready to put

534
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: that together. Then of course Dan Rather from CBS News

535
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 3: stuck his head in and said, we've got a source.

536
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: We know you're looking at the guy in Lincoln, Montana

537
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: with a Polis last name, and we're going to run

538
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 3: with it. And so Louis Free was a director, give

539
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: us three days. So we had to rush everything up

540
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: and we were going to make the arrest in May

541
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 3: when the weather was nicer. Well, we had to go

542
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: on April third, and we eventually did. I stayed back

543
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: in San frank because I was finishing up the Affidavid

544
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: till midnight that night.

545
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 4: This is true cruent tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy Movin

546
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 4: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and

547
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 4: the wonderful James fitz Fitzgerald. We've been talking all things linguistics,

548
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 4: from manifestos to ransom notes, and we want to hear

549
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: from you. Hit us up on the talkbacks on the

550
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app.

551
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: A team went in, got him, He tried to run,

552
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: he tried to get him back in his cabin Kazinski

553
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 3: that is, but they tackled and put him on the

554
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: ground and they had to send robot into his cabin

555
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: to look for potential booby traps. Bombs that could go

556
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: off trip wires, and we were thinking all along how

557
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: much he must have hated the fact, mister anti technology

558
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: robots going through his own cabin. But they cleared the

559
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: cabin within a few days. I was in there, found

560
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 3: all the documents, one thousand cabin documents. Found a handwritten

561
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: on yellow legal pad version of the manifesto with crossouts

562
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: like he used to write in college when I was there,

563
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: before you had a word processor. So we had such

564
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: great evidence, and my report stood up. A few attempts

565
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 3: to get it thrown out, of course by the defense team,

566
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 3: whatever their own experts, but it stood in there. And

567
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: they knew if the evidence in the cabin was going

568
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: to be admitted into his trial, he was going to

569
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 3: be convicted readily. So they had finally convinced him to

570
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: plead guilty. He did plead guilty to two consecutive life sentences,

571
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: and he was never to see the light of day again.

572
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: And of course he died about two years ago, in

573
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: June twenty twenty three. They say, of suicide. I don't know.

574
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: I wasn't there. But the unibomber campaign ended in April

575
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety five, and his life ended whatever that

576
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: was twenty eight and were you.

577
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: Were instrumental in that, and you you know, be very

578
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 4: very very proud of you and your team for putting

579
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 4: all that together. Do you think that if the manifesto

580
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 4: was never published, would he have been caught without the

581
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 4: like y'reling theistic's work plus the you know, being published

582
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 4: in the Washington Post and his you know brother and

583
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 4: you know sister law seeing it in the paper.

584
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 5: Great question.

585
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a great question. And I've always said,

586
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 3: and I was already manifesto was published September nineteenth of

587
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: ninety five, and we were hoping maybe to get a

588
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: break within the next week or two. Nothing until February

589
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: of the following year, I say nothing. Leeds came in.

590
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 3: I told you about phone calls and ex husbands, whatever,

591
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: but but nothing that matched up. Nothing for me, nothing

592
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: substantial at all until that facts came in and mid

593
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 3: February to me back at Quantico, and I started putting

594
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: together a plan. And it wouldn't have been easy because

595
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: this is the Internet was around, but there was you know,

596
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: se search engines where we're at a minimum, there's so

597
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: little you can do. But I said, guys, let's pick

598
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: out about a dozen statements in all of the unibomber's writings.

599
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: You can't eat your cake and have a do being

600
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 3: another one maybe even you know, negroes and chicks whatever.

601
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: And there's some other sentences in there of the six hundred,

602
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: and let's start going through letters to the editor to

603
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: various newspapers magazines. It's going to be labor intensive. We

604
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: have to have agents go into newspapers, maybe serve subpoenas.

605
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: We need your archives, all microfish machines, and you can

606
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 3: picture them and how they used to operate, like the

607
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: up using the base of a library, whatever, and just

608
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: get and just look for these types of bizarre or

609
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: i should say, highly distinctive phraseology words, whatever, and look

610
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: for some kind of letter. If we would have gotten

611
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: lucky somehow, you know, the Saturday Evening magazine archives would

612
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: have been looked at and we would have found you

613
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: can't eat your cake and have it too Theodore Jay

614
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: Kazinski and guided that it would have been labor intensive,

615
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 3: no guarantees had quite frankly, it could still be going

616
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 3: on to this day, but it would be a lot

617
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: easier now, of course, with the Internet and virtually everything online,

618
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: you know, going back you know, one hundred.

619
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: Years, including dictations and thesises and things like that.

620
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 5: Those are all online now. Yeah, and still.

621
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 3: Think of writing features would have come up somewhere.

622
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 7: Still, Fitz, I can't believe that the inception point of

623
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 7: your story and how basically there was no other There

624
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 7: wasn't the DNA, there wasn't the traditional evidence. Do you

625
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 7: feel like this was almost a case of necessity is

626
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 7: the mother of invention? Do you did you know you

627
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 7: had such a wild proclivity for linguistics before this?

628
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did a ted X talk about five and

629
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: a half years ago at Miami Modern pen State, and

630
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: I wanted to talk to some younger people, and while

631
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: putting this talk together, it really hit me that all

632
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 3: my life and I put this in my books too,

633
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 3: in my memoir series A Journey to the Center of

634
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: the Mind. But I've always had a kinship with language.

635
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 3: Only English language took you know, a few years of

636
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: Spanish in high school and a semester in college, but

637
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: not too much there. But I just the intricacies, the

638
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 3: mechanisms of language, and how people from different parts of

639
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: the country pronounce words differently, regionalisms, how older people may

640
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 3: use certain My mother, my grandmother, used to were going

641
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 3: or we're taking the machine to visit Aunt so and so.

642
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 3: To her, that was automobile. My parents sometimes would slip

643
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: and call the refrigerator an ice box. They were, you

644
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 3: know so, and these are terms that I knew that. Boy,

645
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: it's funny how language ships and you being a different

646
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: part of the world. My really one big vacation with

647
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: my parents was in nineteen sixty three. We drove from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,

648
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: to Hot Springs, Arkansas, and boy, what a lifeanguage transition

649
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 3: that was for me. And I met her. After three

650
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 3: weeks there, my dad was taken the Hotbeds where his

651
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 3: band back. And I'm living in this hotel with my

652
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 3: mom and I'm reading other kids there and I'm playing

653
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: with them. It was a cool little town, Hot Springs,

654
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: going to the movies, and I'm actually picking up some

655
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 3: of their regionalisms. I think I wound up saying y'all

656
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: or all y'all to my parents, like by the second

657
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 3: or third week, and they said, you're talking like a

658
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: Southerner now, And I said, oh, was that good or bad? Mom?

659
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 3: But the point is I learned at an early age

660
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 3: how important that was. And I also the first adult

661
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: oriented book I ever read was called Kidnap, and not

662
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 3: the Robert Lewis Stevenson kidnap, but it's strictly called Kidnap.

663
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: Was written in the early sixties, all about the Lindberg

664
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 3: kidnapping case. And my parents were young adults when that

665
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 3: happened in nineteen thirty two, was right across the river

666
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: from Philadelphia where they lived on Hopewell, New Jersey, and

667
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: that was the crime of the century, certainly through most

668
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 3: of their life. And they said, why don't you read

669
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: this book someday? And it was the first book I

670
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 3: went to the build up your library of the local

671
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 3: branch and got this thick book out was I was

672
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 3: done with doctor Seuss and some of you know that

673
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 3: type of reading. And this book just fascinated me, and

674
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 3: from all different elements of forensics, but certainly the letters

675
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: and how handwriting experts could look at them, and the

676
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: language features of eventually Bruno Hopman that the German language

677
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: features found in the letters, certainly his accents when they met.

678
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 3: And here I am put on the unibomb case. All

679
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 3: these things that interested me. No formal education yet I

680
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: bestually went back to school the Georgetown University and got

681
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 3: a second master's degree, this one in linguistics. But I

682
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: was really it was trial by fire for me. I

683
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: was just in many things. I read the beginning of

684
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: a dictionary. If you ever look at a dictionary in

685
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 3: the early days, and I did as a kid, I

686
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 3: would read it. It's just interesting how language it gives,

687
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: like the history of English, you know, Indo European, and

688
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 3: the different branches that go off, and then of course

689
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 3: different dialect regions in the US and all these factors.

690
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: As a kid, I was always playing scra with my

691
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: mother that I continued playing as an adult, crossword puzzles.

692
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 3: Language always intrigued me, and hear a perfect environment, perfect

693
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: storm for Kazinski. Perhaps all came together with me by chance,

694
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: being you know, getting promoted due profiler the manifesto in

695
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 3: April of ninety five. Manifesto comes out in June of

696
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 3: ninety five. I get sent to in July of ninety

697
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: five to the task force, and I found his dad

698
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 3: at the zig thing. The acrostic is it fits You're

699
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 3: in charge of language and the rest is history. So

700
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: fate karma kismet in a positive way for me, negative

701
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: way for Kazinsky, and it just it just all came

702
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: together and I got back and I went back to school.

703
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it in my forties and I'm getting

704
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: another master's degree. But the FBI gave me a scholarship,

705
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 3: so to speak, so it was worthwhile and going on

706
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 3: campus that was before remote classes, so that I could

707
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 3: really find the science behind it. And once I got

708
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 3: my degree, I did consider myself a linguist, a forensic

709
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 3: linguist and a profiler. I think I'm the only one

710
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: in the world that wears both those hats. Wow, I

711
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 3: do use both when I assess cases and from all

712
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: around the world. Actually, I'm still doing some work even

713
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 3: in Australia a few years ago. Helped save a stalking

714
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 3: case for them there. So yeah, it's interesting where life

715
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: took me an a hobby and interested as a young

716
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 3: kid and do adult years. And then the biggest case

717
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 3: probably in the history of the US. Really nine to

718
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 3: eleven was a bigger crime, but there was really little

719
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: investigation because the pilots were all dead and other things

720
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 3: like that. But as far as the biggest longitudinal investigation,

721
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 3: seventeen years long when I joined it nine months later.

722
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 4: We find do emojis and like short paragraphs, like tweets

723
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 4: carry the same forensic linguistics that paragraphs do, like modern

724
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: or historical writing. Do they carry the same weight with you?

725
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: Do you think yes? Because people who are writing to

726
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: threat or in conjunction with committing a crime, we're covering

727
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 3: up a crime if they're going to write it all.

728
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: Not every criminal does. They can't stop themselves. Right.

729
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 4: I could talk to you for another seven hours easily

730
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: and just listen because I'm just fascinated by everything you

731
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 4: have to say. I'm a huge fan personally. There are

732
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 4: two people I really wanted to have on the show,

733
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 4: you and John Douglas, and you've made my dream come true.

734
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. Fitz, thank you so much for

735
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 4: joining us. This has been an absolute dream come true

736
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 4: for me and I know we all learned so much

737
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 4: for anyone else who's interested in Fitz's work. He's the

738
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 4: author of the Journey to the Center of the Mind

739
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 4: series and his new book Just Dropped. Book purchasing information

740
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 4: is on his website at www dot James R. Fitzgerald

741
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 4: dot com. There you can also access bonus chapters. Fitz

742
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: also hosts the Cold Red podcast, where he and his

743
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 4: co host cover cold cases, innocent projects, and some of

744
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 4: their own most high profile cases. Thank you so much again, Fits,

745
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 4: I'm literally gonna cry for real. Thank you so much.

746
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 5: I'm so really in honor for all of us.

747
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

748
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 4: Coming up, we've got more true crime to dig into,

749
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 4: and later, Betrayal host Andrea Gunning joins us to talk

750
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 4: about the jaw dropping truth behind one of the most

751
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: talked about true crime stories of the decade. Keep it

752
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 4: right here on True Crime Tonight if you're just tuning in.

753
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 4: We just got done talking to one of my personal heroes,

754
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 4: James fitz Fitzgerald we call him Fits, retired FBI linguist

755
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 4: who was instrumental in capturing one of America's most notorious killers,

756
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 4: Ted Gizginski, the Unibommer. But right now we're gonna shift gears.

757
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 4: We have another special guest, Andrea Gunning. She is the

758
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 4: co host of the hit iHeart podcast Betrayal and Betrayal Weekly.

759
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 4: Andrea is the head of podcast development at Class Entertainment Group,

760
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 4: and she's here to unpack Betrayal, which is jaw dropping

761
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: tales of deception, resilience, and healing, all while guiding listeners

762
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 4: through some of the most personal accounts Betrayal you'll ever hear. Courtney,

763
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 4: you want to get us started, Yeah, So, Andrea, do

764
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 4: you want to start and give us just a little

765
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: bit of background of before you started Betrayal?

766
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 3: Sure? Well.

767
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 8: My name is Andrea Gunning. I'm the host of Betrayal

768
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 8: Weekly as well as the limited run series with iHeart.

769
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 8: Before I got into Betrayal, I had I was running

770
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 8: the business affairs department. I was the executive in charge

771
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 8: of production with Glass Entertainment Groups, so I handled all

772
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 8: of the boring stuff about TV, which is the budgets,

773
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 8: the schedules, the money. Glass Entertainment Group is a larger

774
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 8: production company and we do everything from true crime, home renovation,

775
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 8: historical documentaries, and so you were seeing a lot of

776
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 8: great shows getting passed up in the TV pipeline and

777
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 8: development because there wasn't a why.

778
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 4: Now.

779
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 8: We had one show in particular that was really great,

780
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 8: had really great access, and it was with Kim Goldman,

781
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 8: the sister of Ron Goldman who was murdered by O. J. Simpson,

782
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 8: and networks were kind of passing up the access because

783
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 8: in order to sell it to TV, we needed to

784
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 8: guarantee OJ Simpson's appearance, and so we couldn't sell it.

785
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 8: And I thought, I mean, like my colleague Ben and

786
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 8: I talked to our boss, Nancy Glass, who's an Emmy

787
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 8: Award winning journalist. She's done. She was like Jeffrey Dahmer's confidant,

788
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 8: like she had is incredible, and she saw a vision

789
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 8: and we were like, let's let's pitch this, and we

790
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 8: pitched it to Wondering and we produced Confronting O J. Simpson.

791
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 8: It was my very first podcast that I had ever created.

792
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 8: I remember when the O. J. Simpson trial happened because

793
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 8: my mom was out of work at the time. Her

794
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 8: name was Kim. My mom's name is Kim. She was

795
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 8: extremely just drawn and connected to Kim Goldman because at

796
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 8: the time of the trial, my mom was taking care

797
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 8: of her brother who was dying of cancer. So she

798
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 8: felt like this kinship, like she felt this connection to

799
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 8: Kim Goldman. And I think a lot of people were

800
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 8: obviously captivated by the trial, but I remember my mom

801
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 8: feeling so connected to Kim, and I just saw such

802
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 8: value in her point of view. So he created this

803
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 8: banner series it is true crime, but it's basically about

804
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 8: people who live through an American tragedy. And so I

805
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 8: produced Confronting O. J. Simpson and then we did a

806
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 8: follow up to Confronting O J. Simpson that was Confronting Columbine.

807
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 8: So that was my first time producing it. And then

808
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 8: around the same time, Jennifer Fason, who was the subject

809
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 8: of season one of Betrayal, heard confronting OJ Simpson. I

810
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 8: had worked with her agent before because we've done a

811
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 8: lot of deals with executive producers and producers, and he

812
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 8: knew me and my colleague and so he connected us.

813
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 8: And I was just coming out of a relationship that

814
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 8: was difficult, not similar to Jen's, but like I could

815
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 8: understand that I had gone through a relationship with deception,

816
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 8: and so I had felt this connection of like this

817
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 8: understood of just feeling shame and feeling like what was

818
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 8: I missing and all of these things. So when she

819
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 8: was sharing and I just kind of I just understood

820
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 8: and I knew there was something here, and that was

821
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 8: how Betrayal started interesting.

822
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 4: And Jennifer, Jennifer is the one who her husband was Spencer.

823
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, so the story of season one is about Jennifer

824
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 8: Fason and her husband, Spencer Heron. He was two time

825
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 8: Teacher of the Year and she comes home from work

826
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 8: finds him sitting on the couch. There was a arrest

827
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 8: warrant in his hand, and he said, you know, everything's over,

828
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 8: It's all over. He was being arrested because he's sexually

829
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 8: assaulted a student of his And then through that whole

830
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 8: process she found evidence of dozens and dozens and dozens

831
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 8: of affairs.

832
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 5: And that's kind of like her journey through that right.

833
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 8: Like right exactly unpacking the man she really trying to

834
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 8: see and fine, like just trying to discover the man

835
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 8: she married, really because there was a version of who

836
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 8: she believed him to be. And then she sat down

837
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 8: with other women that had a relationship with him and

838
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 8: tried to understand the mask he presented to them to

839
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 8: really try to get a full picture of who this

840
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 8: person really was.

841
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 7: It was so compelling from the jump, I have to say,

842
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 7: and yeah, I think part of what I loved and

843
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 7: got sucked into is obviously going in. You know the title,

844
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 7: it's betrayal. You know something's doing you've heard what you

845
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 7: know the trailer is. But the way you guys laid

846
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 7: out episode one and Jennifer like, just staying so in

847
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 7: the present of Spencer was wonderful. He was dreamy, I

848
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 7: was excited, Like I'm I think from a storytelling perspective,

849
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 7: what made you guys do that? Because it was really

850
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 7: effective and I could see not making that choice.

851
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it's a great question whenever we talk

852
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 8: about what stories work for work for betrayal, you know,

853
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 8: there obviously is the deception element to it, but the

854
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 8: more important aspect is really the love story. Because without

855
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 8: really understanding what these two people mean to each other

856
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 8: before everything falls apart, there aren't a six So it

857
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 8: was really important for us to really establish where jen

858
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 8: was at her in her life and who Spencer was,

859
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 8: and you know, he she I remember meeting with her

860
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 8: and her saying there were no red flags and there

861
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 8: were none. People who do this are really good at

862
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,439
Speaker 8: hiding this other side. So it was important for the

863
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 8: audience to really hear that relationship and how good it was,

864
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 8: to really understand how devastating everything was when it.

865
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 4: Fell apart, right, because it's just a shock because they

866
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 4: presented so well this mask of who they pretended to be,

867
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 4: and yeah, that's devastating. And I think people that they

868
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 4: put the why didn't I see it? Why didn't I?

869
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 4: You know, so this is actually the therapy too for

870
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 4: women who have gone through things similar.

871
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 8: That's right, and so I think part of our mission

872
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 8: as a brand is to really educate people, because I mean,

873
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 8: we get all the time, and it's totally understandable that,

874
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 8: you know, people are going to say, oh, there are

875
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 8: red flags. You know, they're either are no red flags

876
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 8: because the perpetrator is just that good and they're that

877
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 8: skilled at deceiving and lying, or there's a whole other

878
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 8: phenomenon called betrayal blindness. It's a real psychological issue where

879
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 8: an experience that you go through where you're able to

880
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 8: your brain is kind of overwriting information as a survival mechanism.

881
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 8: I mean, this is a really very real thing, and

882
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 8: so it's really just an exploration because you're right, women

883
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 8: are really hard and people are really hard on themselves,

884
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 8: and there's a lot of self shame and guilt that

885
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 8: people live in when they deal with something like this

886
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 8: because you realize so quickly that you have very little

887
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 8: control and so that's such a scary feeling, and so

888
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 8: you really are hard on yourself. Like, what's in a

889
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 8: nice say see so that you can protect yourself in

890
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 8: the future. The reality is is that you often don't

891
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 8: see anything for those reasons I just mentioned before.

892
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 7: Right, I forget who was speaking about Jennifer, maybe her sister,

893
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 7: but saying when she would leave Jennifer, she would just

894
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 7: break down into tears because she saw Jennifer in that

895
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 7: moment of he cheated on me, and now I'm worthless

896
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 7: and worthless and then your brain spins and now I'm ugly,

897
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 7: and now I'm this, And Jennifer was none of those things.

898
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 7: But I think all of us can relate to being

899
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 7: in a position that has made us feel that way.

900
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 8: That was what was the most relatable to me when

901
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 8: I first met jen were those feelings of unworthiness and

902
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 8: just the idea because I had again come out of

903
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 8: a relationship and discovered, you know that the person that

904
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 8: I was dating and living with was like, you know,

905
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 8: taking our dinners to a woman at the gym, like

906
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 8: our leftovers, and then there was another woman that he

907
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 8: would make care packages for. And I just remember thinking like,

908
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 8: why am I not What's wrong with me? Why am

909
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 8: I not good enough? I was so destructive to my

910
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 8: self worth and it took a long time to repair that,

911
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 8: and so just knowing that she had gone through that,

912
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 8: it was just again not to the same magnitude, but

913
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 8: just that thought. Those feelings that you go through are

914
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 8: just so lonely that if we could reach someone that

915
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 8: was going through through that, that was the whole point,

916
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 8: to make them feel less alone.

917
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 4: Do you think that's why Betrayal has struck such a

918
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 4: nerve with its listeners and continues to gain popularity is

919
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 4: because it's relatable and it you know, people and particularly

920
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 4: women you know, relate to the storytelling and feel like

921
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 4: they're not alone.

922
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 8: I think so. I think that that's at the core

923
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 8: of the show and every season, in every story we tell,

924
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 8: we try to look for the emotional access like where

925
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 8: am I meeting another person that's listening? And what are

926
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 8: the threads that like kind of bind us together?

927
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 3: Right?

928
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 8: So you may not have a husband that did this

929
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 8: to you, but are these the emotions that you've dealt

930
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 8: with at some point in time in your life? And

931
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 8: we try to write into that a lot, because I've

932
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 8: gone through my fair share of ups and downs and

933
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 8: I know what I needed in those times, and so

934
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 8: there's definitely pieces of it, and I hope that that's

935
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 8: what is keeping people around.

936
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure it has a lot to

937
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 5: do with it.

938
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 4: What are what are some of the common messages you

939
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 4: get from listeners.

940
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 8: Man, it's it's we have an email in box Betrayal

941
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 8: potat gmail dot com and people will will write in

942
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 8: their one or two sentences or a whole diary entry

943
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 8: of what they've experienced. Every season of the limited run

944
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 8: has come from someone that's written in. So season two

945
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 8: is Ashley's story. She literally wrote to us in the

946
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 8: middle of the night listening to season one. Season three

947
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 8: is Stacy and Tyler story. Same thing. Listen to Ashley's

948
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 8: story compelled her to write in. Same with Caroline, which

949
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 8: was just season four, and now I'm about to go

950
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 8: in the field for season five. It's a story out

951
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 8: of Maryland. All of them have been listeners that have

952
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 8: written into us, and it either is like a small

953
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 8: little message of like, hi, thank you, like I went

954
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 8: through something similar. This made me feel y and Cee,

955
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 8: I don't feel as alone. We get a lot of feedback,

956
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,399
Speaker 8: a lot of feedback, you know, of decisions people made

957
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 8: in the moments of the wake of their life falling apart,

958
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 8: and so those are always really interesting. It's a mixture

959
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 8: of like positive listenership and a lot of feedback, which

960
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 8: we take seriously. It's really it's really interesting to us

961
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 8: what people, you know, try to dissect and discuss because

962
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 8: a lot of people each season comes up. There's one

963
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 8: thing that the audience really harps on.

964
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 5: Interesting and different for each season and.

965
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 8: Different season absolutely.

966
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, will you tell us a little bit and about

967
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 7: back to season one for just a hot second. Sure,

968
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 7: But how was it working with Jennifer in season one

969
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 7: with her being a producer and that was kind of

970
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 7: a lot of her story and how her and her

971
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 7: husband Spencer met Jennifer also a producer.

972
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's how we met because she is an agent.

973
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 8: But you know, she obviously understands story, but she's a

974
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 8: talented writer, so getting her feedback on anything that we

975
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 8: were writing and crafting this story as was helpful. You know,

976
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 8: we obviously needed to maintain a sense of objectivity. That's

977
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 8: why I sept in i was producing it. That's why

978
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 8: I sept in his narrator because I wanted to be

979
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 8: that person that could ask the questions that the audience

980
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 8: were asking and be that had that separation from what

981
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 8: she went through and provide context where she couldn't. You know,

982
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 8: she obviously went through something really difficult, but even had

983
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 8: the perspective of like, this is a really interesting story

984
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 8: to tell.

985
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 3: Wow.

986
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 7: And that's remarkable because I would imagine it would be

987
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 7: almost harder rather than easier with someone who kind of

988
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 7: knows all the components that goes in.

989
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 5: But again, you did a beautiful job.

990
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 4: Right Courtney. I agree, it's so well done. Andrea, you

991
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 4: were giving us some insight into what goes in, like

992
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 4: behind the scenes. Can you go ahead and continue those thoughts?

993
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 8: I was just going to say, I think in terms

994
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 8: of the way that TV is written, there's a lot

995
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 8: of outlines. There's very clear beach sheets, like it's very

996
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 8: you know, there's a lot of preparation, and you know,

997
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 8: when we went into season one, Carrie, who's my producing

998
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 8: partner on the series, we're like, we're not doing anything,

999
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 8: like we're going we're getting interviews and then we're going

1000
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 8: to see where the story takes us, which was a

1001
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 8: very different approach for Jen because she's used to something

1002
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 8: a little bit more structured, and so it allowed us

1003
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 8: to have more freedom, you know, because obviously if you

1004
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 8: have a background of like everything being very produced and written,

1005
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 8: you can kind of get very narrow and where you

1006
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 8: want something to go. But we really wanted to see

1007
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 8: where the story was taking us as we did interviews,

1008
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 8: and that's kind.

1009
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 4: Of telling is so good because you're not forcing a narrative.

1010
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 4: You're letting the story just develop one and tell itself.

1011
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 4: That's important, That's really important because it's more natural anyway. Yeah,

1012
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 4: can you talk this through Ashley's story in season two?

1013
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1014
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 8: So Ashley Linton, she's a mother of three in Riverton, Utah,

1015
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 8: and one day she was trying to set up a

1016
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 8: business venmo account for her husband. He was an electrician

1017
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 8: is an electrician. I don't know if he's still doing

1018
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 8: that anymore, but he was about to take over a

1019
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 8: book of business and it was a really exciting time

1020
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 8: in their life because you know he was going to start,

1021
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 8: you know, he was working under somebody and then he

1022
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 8: was going to take on their book and it was

1023
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 8: going to be a whole new level for them as

1024
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 8: a family financially. And through the process of setting up

1025
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 8: the business venmo account, she sees hidden folder and then

1026
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 8: something in her gut, like we've all had this right

1027
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 8: where it's like, look, it compels you. There's something there,

1028
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 8: open it, and so she sees it, she thinks about it,

1029
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 8: and then she clicks into it and sees things she'll

1030
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 8: never unsee. And what was in the hidden older were

1031
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 8: images of Sea Sam which is child's central abused material,

1032
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 8: and some were like strangers people she didn't recognize, the

1033
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 8: children she didn't recognize, and then there were videos of

1034
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 8: her own daughter. So she had two kids with another

1035
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 8: like her high school sweetheart. They ended up separating, and

1036
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 8: then when he came into the picture, he was like

1037
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 8: the perfect father. He took her two kids under a swing,

1038
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,959
Speaker 8: basically raised them. They basically called him dad, and he

1039
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,240
Speaker 8: was taking videos of her oldest daughter. So it's really

1040
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 8: about that season. It's difficult. You know, she sits down

1041
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 8: with her daughter, Avea, who's an incredibly beautiful and strong individual,

1042
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 8: and we really unpack like what happens when you see

1043
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 8: something like that again and then the dominoes fall and

1044
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 8: what those twenty four hours and forty eight hours look

1045
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 8: like because she had to call the police on her husband,

1046
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 8: even though her husband's brother was a police officer. So

1047
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 8: when she sees it, she's like, I don't know what

1048
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 8: I'm seeing, right, Like, am I being dramatic? I don't

1049
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 8: know what this is. She takes some pictures of it

1050
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 8: so she can have evidence of it, and then she

1051
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 8: calls her brother in law and not much is done,

1052
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,479
Speaker 8: and so she kind of has to take matters into

1053
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 8: her own hands. He gets arrested, and then we cover

1054
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 8: his trial and the fallout and the sentencing, and then

1055
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 8: we kind of that's a very specific part of the story,

1056
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 8: and then we kind of zoom out and really show

1057
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 8: what is going on with the Internet and technology and

1058
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 8: how pervasive this issue is and how these things are prosecuted.

1059
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 8: So you would be surprised. I thought that someone who

1060
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 8: is caught with se sam gets the book thrown at them.

1061
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 8: There's always what I thought, I like you, right, but

1062
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 8: that is not the case because we have task force

1063
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 8: in our state called IKAK, and they're triaging, so you

1064
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 8: you know, for every tip they may only be able

1065
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 8: to handle a handful.

1066
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 4: In processing the Internet crimes against children? Right, Yes, that's

1067
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 4: that spell out what that is, Okay.

1068
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 8: Internet Crimes against Children's Task Force.

1069
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 5: Every state house has a different right that's right.

1070
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 8: And so depending on depending on how bigger state is,

1071
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 8: you can have someone you can have a larger task

1072
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 8: force than others. But you know, Utah's got a pretty

1073
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 8: significant task force, and they are they're just triaging the

1074
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 8: tips that are coming in and even the ones that

1075
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 8: they get to sentence and prosecute, they're not enough jail cells,

1076
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 8: unfortunately for people that are consuming this material. So it

1077
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 8: was an education for me. Definitely an education for me.

1078
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 4: This is true crimes and I on iHeartRadio we talk

1079
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 4: true crime all the time. I'm buddy, move in and

1080
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 4: I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we

1081
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 4: are lucky to be joined by Andrea Gunning. She's the

1082
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 4: co host of the iHeart podcast Betrayal and Betrayal Weekly. Courtney,

1083
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 4: you were going to add something else. I'm sorry, go ahead, No.

1084
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 5: It's wild.

1085
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 7: The proliferation of all of these internet child rhymes is

1086
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 7: you know, it makes because we've been talking about it

1087
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 7: in a couple of different capacities. I don't even remember

1088
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 7: what started us.

1089
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 4: I was begging on the topic posting pictures of their

1090
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 4: children online.

1091
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 7: Right, And we actually went to a commercial break and

1092
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 7: I was crying anyway, it's so horrible. Yeah, but you know,

1093
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 7: I wonder if the Internet is it because this material,

1094
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 7: these images are more accessible. Like it just makes me

1095
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 7: wonder societally or has this dark and disturbing has it

1096
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 7: always been going on?

1097
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, going on societally it must have been.

1098
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, I would I would agree, but with the Internet

1099
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 8: and the ability to manipulate and distribute, And you have

1100
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 8: to remember, I mean, once that video has taken, that

1101
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 8: is a crime has already been committed, right, And so

1102
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 8: a huge part of these online communities you can get

1103
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 8: access and consume, but ultimately at the end of the day,

1104
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 8: you then have to start contributing. So then you have

1105
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 8: to be able to provide videos and the.

1106
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 4: Ones that they haven't seen already, right, So they trade,

1107
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 4: It's like it's like a trade, and it's some trade.

1108
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 4: You have to contribute. So now you have to read,

1109
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 4: you have to victimize someone, and then the person receiving

1110
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 4: is also getting revictimized at this point now because their

1111
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 4: pictures are being sent to new people.

1112
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's really important issues that you guys tackle, and

1113
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 7: you know, just the way in of one person story

1114
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 7: of Ashley's story to tell it, I think is always

1115
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 7: almost always the most powerful way to get across a

1116
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 7: larger message.

1117
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 8: It's a really heavy topic, but what I found really interesting,

1118
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 8: and we do feature a few other stories that are

1119
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 8: similar to Ashley's in that season, but what was really

1120
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 8: important to me to cover in season two was after

1121
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 8: he got out of jail, she went back to him

1122
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 8: for a little while. And we're sitting here, probably you

1123
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 8: guys may be thinking, how could you do that? He

1124
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 8: was violating her own daughter because he was pretending to

1125
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 8: go stargazing and he would stand outside of his stepdaughter's

1126
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 8: bedroom and videotape her and take pictures of her. You know,

1127
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 8: it's easy for the audience to say, like, I cannot

1128
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 8: believe that she would go back to him, Like that's horrifying.

1129
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,959
Speaker 8: She hadn't seen the full discovery that the police had

1130
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 8: in the lawsuit, and she immediately went back into wifey mode.

1131
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 8: There was this like maternal this need to like keep

1132
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 8: her family together even though he had done something so horrible,

1133
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 8: and she just was grasping at straws for the life

1134
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 8: before she saw what she saw. And we're not here

1135
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 8: to like judge those decisions, right, We're just trying to

1136
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 8: like show that those decisions are made every day, and

1137
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 8: a huge part of what I do is show the

1138
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 8: complexity of the human experience. It's, you know, an easy

1139
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 8: story to tell to say this happened, she left him.

1140
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 8: It is what it is. But the more interesting story

1141
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 8: to me is what are those days, in those weeks

1142
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 8: and the months in the aftermath where she's like trying

1143
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 8: to figure out, you know, leaving her husband and she

1144
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 8: finally sees everything like descriptions of the photos, the things

1145
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 8: that of her daughter, and is like, I can't, I

1146
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 8: can't do this. And there are parts of her story

1147
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 8: in her marriage where you know, he would be alone

1148
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 8: in his bedroom drawing for hours on end, like he

1149
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 8: was isolating himself, and she would take care of him,

1150
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 8: and she would leave him dinner at their bedroom door.

1151
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 8: And so much of her season is her exploring her

1152
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 8: own self worth and like how she was parentified at

1153
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 8: an early age and so it was just easy for

1154
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 8: her to just take care of everybody and not really

1155
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 8: focus and lean in on, you know, what was really

1156
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 8: going on. She was just trying to keep everything together

1157
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 8: all the time. That's another example of like you know,

1158
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 8: we talk about this crime that was committed. The aftermath

1159
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 8: and you know, her own exploration and to why she

1160
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 8: did what she did and forgiving herself for it, and

1161
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:51,919
Speaker 8: then ultimately sitting down with her daughter and talking about

1162
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 8: those months where she was with him and her daughter

1163
01:03:55,040 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 8: forgiving her for that, which was like very powerful, really powerful.

1164
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, no situations, I mean it's amazing. You never know

1165
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 7: how any of us will react in any situation. You

1166
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 7: just don't, Like you said, it is real easy to

1167
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 7: have a knee jerk judging reaction to lots of it,

1168
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 7: but very different when you're in it. Can you also

1169
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 7: catch people up on season three just what they should

1170
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 7: know going in.

1171
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely, And we're currently in production. It's a three

1172
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 8: part docu series for ABC. Season three is about a

1173
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 8: family from Reading, Pennsylvania. Swoman Stacy was dating and ultimately

1174
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 8: married this man named Justin Rutherford, and he was a

1175
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 8: doctor as a physician, she had already gone through one marriage,

1176
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 8: had two kids and Tyler and Mikaela, and then you know,

1177
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 8: later in life, found justice and she had gone through

1178
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 8: a lot in her first marriage, there was betrayal, so

1179
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 8: back to those feelings of feeling like unworthy. She never

1180
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 8: thought she was going to find love and she is

1181
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 8: an incredible mom, Like those kids love her. So when

1182
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 8: she found Justin, like these kids were so excited for

1183
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 8: their mom, and you know he was basically they have

1184
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 8: a good relationship with their biological father, but he became

1185
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 8: like their dad, they called him dad. And he turns

1186
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 8: out that he had been abusing her son, Tyler, since

1187
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 8: he was very young. And so Season three is basically

1188
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 8: two people's story. It's Stacy's and Tyler's. And for Stacy

1189
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 8: it's really understanding, similar to Jen reconciling the man that

1190
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 8: she thought she had married and the monster that he

1191
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:01,919
Speaker 8: really was and really integrating those two things. And Tyler's

1192
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 8: story is really the power of breaking his the stigma

1193
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 8: of male sexual abuse and overcoming that and like finding

1194
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 8: power in his voice.

1195
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 5: Hold that thought.

1196
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 4: We're going to continue our conversation with Andrea Gunning, the

1197
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 4: co host of the hit iHeart podcast Betrayal and Betrayaled

1198
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 4: Weekly Drew Crime tonight. So, Andrea, you were getting ready

1199
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 4: to tell us about how all this happened.

1200
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 8: How everything went down, was there was a hitting camera

1201
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 8: in one of their bathrooms in their home, so their

1202
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 8: house was they were this family was so proud of

1203
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 8: this home. Stacy never thought she had been spending so

1204
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 8: much time like making ends meet. She finally was like,

1205
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 8: we have made it. We have a five bedroom house,

1206
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 8: a pool in the backyard. My kids are happy, they

1207
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 8: love being home. She had two other kids. She calls

1208
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 8: in the littles with Justin like life was good. And

1209
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 8: then one day CPS basically filed a complain. There was

1210
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 8: an investigation done because there was a hitting camera that

1211
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 8: was in the bathroom and it was Tyler's bathroom. One

1212
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 8: of his friends thought it was like a phone charger

1213
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 8: and they're like, this is a little fishy.

1214
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 5: What is this?

1215
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 8: Took it home, investigated it was it was a camera.

1216
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 8: Through investigation, they determined that it was Justin had placed

1217
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 8: it there, and there was a lot of things that

1218
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 8: were confusing for Stacy. She made that decision like once

1219
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 8: it was confirmed that he had placed the hitting camera there,

1220
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:44,959
Speaker 8: she was done, like she was divorcing him, like it's over.

1221
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 8: And through the process of that coming out, Tyler disclosed

1222
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 8: to his aunt that there had been abuse, and abuse

1223
01:07:56,080 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 8: had been going on for a long time, and ultimately

1224
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 8: he disclosed to law enforcement. He really he was so

1225
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 8: afraid that if he didn't say he was going to

1226
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,960
Speaker 8: take everything to his grave. But he didn't want what

1227
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 8: happened to him to happen to his little brother, so

1228
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 8: he spoke up. Justin goes on the run and then

1229
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 8: ultimately comes back to the United States, is arrested, and

1230
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 8: then tries very hard to get Tyler to recant his testimony,

1231
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 8: and through the process of that, tries to hire a

1232
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 8: hitman and have Tyler killed. So it's really about and

1233
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:42,680
Speaker 8: it's a crazy story. There's a lot of twist and turns,

1234
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 8: and it's really about again, like this family of this

1235
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 8: is a man that they loved him so much. Tyler

1236
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 8: loved his stepdad so much even till this day. They

1237
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 8: can say good things about the person that he was

1238
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 8: and the values, and so it's really, you know, the

1239
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 8: work that Stacy was doing is really trying to understand

1240
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 8: like who was this monster? Because I only ever saw

1241
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 8: this incredible husband to me and did he just use

1242
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 8: me for access to my son? And what does that mean?

1243
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 8: And so it's a really complicated unpacking. The best part

1244
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 8: about the this family is they're so they're like the

1245
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 8: funniest people and so they like even through it all,

1246
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 8: they have such a great sense of humor. We had

1247
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 8: access to the sentencing hearing. We got to hear Justin's

1248
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 8: elocution and you know, interesting allocated. Yeah, and it's pretty

1249
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 8: wild what he says in court, and so it kind

1250
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 8: of just really goes to show the kind of person

1251
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 8: that he was and how he perceived his relationship with

1252
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 8: Tyler was very you know, was inappropriate and violent. So

1253
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 8: that's season three.

1254
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 5: It was so mind blowing.

1255
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 7: First of all, congratulations on the series deal and.

1256
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 5: But that's amazing.

1257
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 4: Congratulations on all your success. This is Your Crime tonight

1258
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 4: on iHeartRadio. We talk true crime all the time. I'm

1259
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 4: body movin and I'm here with my co host, Stephanie

1260
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,799
Speaker 4: Leidaker and Courtney Armstrong and we are joined by Andrea Gunning.

1261
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 4: She's the co host of the iHeart podcast Betrayal and

1262
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 4: Betrayal Weekly. Courtney, go ahead and continue. We're going to

1263
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 4: finish your thought.

1264
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 7: I have to tell you, the first thing I listened

1265
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 7: to in all of Betrayal with the bonus, and you

1266
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 7: guys have done so many episodes was don't quote me.

1267
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 7: I think it was. I think it was season four,

1268
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,560
Speaker 7: the first bonus episode, but it was Stacy.

1269
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 8: Yes, we did like a recap because he's appealing his sentence,

1270
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 8: so you got sixty years and then I think whatever

1271
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,599
Speaker 8: the probation was, it was like it was a very

1272
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 8: hefty sentence, and I definitely believe his allocution is one

1273
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:08,799
Speaker 8: of the reasons why the judge went heavy on the sentencing.

1274
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 5: Really got it.

1275
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 4: I have to go listen to this. I'm dying to

1276
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 4: now what he said, don't tell me, so I go listen.

1277
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 8: Okay, I want to tell you. But yeah, So he's

1278
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 8: working through the appeal and I think Christmas time was

1279
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 8: really hard when we recorded that bonus, it was during

1280
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 8: the winter, and she was having a hard time because

1281
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,640
Speaker 8: she's still trying to make ends meet. I mean, she

1282
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 8: she had never thought of herself as someone that was

1283
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 8: going to get remarried, meet the man of her dreams.

1284
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 8: Like she was, she had two kids, she was back

1285
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 8: on it, like after her first marriage. She had found

1286
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 8: her footing, She had her two kids, she was fine,

1287
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 8: and then she meets this guy, she falls in love.

1288
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 8: She has two more kids because he wanted to be

1289
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 8: a dad, and because she always kept saying like I

1290
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:47,559
Speaker 8: don't want to be another single mom again. I don't

1291
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 8: want to be another single mom again, So you know,

1292
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 8: Christmas is hard and to know that he has money

1293
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:57,759
Speaker 8: to have a criminal defense attorney to spend the money

1294
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 8: on the appeal where she's barely making ends meet to

1295
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 8: you know, get gas groceries and Christmas presents like that

1296
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 8: was that was a hard time. And I think that's

1297
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 8: probably the bonus that you heard when we were talking

1298
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:07,720
Speaker 8: about it.

1299
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, yes, no, it was and I was equal

1300
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 7: parts engaged and enraged and it was kind of every

1301
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:23,879
Speaker 7: emotion in one and it then kicked off into season

1302
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 7: four at the end of that episode. But my question was,

1303
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 7: with all of these the relationships that you I imagine

1304
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 7: you build with these women over time, do those extend

1305
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 7: past the production or what is that like?

1306
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 8: Since we've done so after season one came out, it

1307
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:45,719
Speaker 8: was then picked up as a three part docku series

1308
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 8: with Hulu, and so we've done the Hulu series for

1309
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 8: season one. In season two, so I work with these

1310
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 8: individuals for like a year a year and a half,

1311
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 8: and then the show comes out and then there's a

1312
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 8: little bit of all old but then we go back

1313
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 8: into production for the documentary and so we're around each

1314
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 8: other for like two three years, and so we get

1315
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 8: to know each other on a very deep level because

1316
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 8: I'm with them, I'm with their families. We do so

1317
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 8: many interviews with people around them. With law enforcement.

1318
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 5: Being the subject.

1319
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,600
Speaker 4: Of a documentary, I mean, I know because I was

1320
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,839
Speaker 4: in a really popular documentary. It's invasive to your life.

1321
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 4: And you do become because you have to trust your

1322
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 4: the producers as the subject, you do become close with

1323
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:32,879
Speaker 4: the production team.

1324
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 5: I still talk to Mark Lewis right.

1325
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 8: It's when someone dedicates themselves to your story, like there's

1326
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 8: a there's a bond there, and you know, we do

1327
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:49,880
Speaker 8: go through really intense legal reviews and vetting, legal vetting

1328
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 8: for these for these stories, and so that being able

1329
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:56,760
Speaker 8: to tell your story from start to finish again one

1330
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 8: I'm not saying like one sitting, but like from the

1331
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 8: beginning to end is so healing and to just be

1332
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 8: able to just kind of go through that cause you're

1333
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 8: kind of you're meeting your that information that you're giving

1334
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 8: your producer at a very specific time in your life,

1335
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 8: and so you're relating to it differently, and so you're

1336
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:16,720
Speaker 8: unpacking things that you need in the current moment, and

1337
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 8: so it's very healing for for people I've heard, and.

1338
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 5: It is to know that they.

1339
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:29,040
Speaker 8: Are vetted, like everything that there's there's there's sources, there's one, two,

1340
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 8: three sources, there's public information out there to you know,

1341
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 8: just validate what they're saying. You know, we're going through

1342
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 8: everything in the case file or whatever it is, and

1343
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 8: so to just know because people doubt themselves, They're like.

1344
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 3: Did I f through this?

1345
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 8: What did I what I did I go through something

1346
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:50,760
Speaker 8: that was really as bad as I think it was?

1347
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 8: Or am I being dramatic? And just to have this

1348
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 8: ability to tell your story, share, have it validated, have

1349
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:02,519
Speaker 8: it supported, and like corroborate really supports people who have

1350
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 8: gone through betrayal trauma because you have this other person

1351
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 8: that doesn't really know you, but is checking and saying, yes,

1352
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 8: this did happen to you. I'm seeing it, I'm validating it,

1353
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,599
Speaker 8: and we couldn't put it out there if we didn't

1354
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 8: have that support. So yeah, you become really connected in

1355
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 8: that way.

1356
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 7: I relate to what you're saying so much. We actually

1357
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 7: have very similar because Stephanie Leidecker, who heads up KAT Studios,

1358
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 7: she and I have made a lot of TV together.

1359
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 7: But the validation and telling people. As you said, with

1360
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 7: the legalities, it's like, listen, you can't say something wrong.

1361
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 7: You're not going to say something wrong. We won't allow it.

1362
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 7: We're not going to let you look stupid. And it's

1363
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 7: just you know, there are so many well it holds right.

1364
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:56,680
Speaker 4: And also like when you're telling your friends or like

1365
01:15:56,800 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 4: your family or story, you hold things back because the

1366
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 4: so your loved ones, right, But when you're talking, at

1367
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 4: least for me, when I would tell my story, like

1368
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 4: people would just like their eyes would glaze over and

1369
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 4: they would kind of back away, and I would be

1370
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 4: conscious of that. But when you're telling the producers or

1371
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:16,720
Speaker 4: your director whoever is doing the documentary or podcast in

1372
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 4: this case, it's much different because you can you can

1373
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:22,920
Speaker 4: do it from start to finish without any holdbacks, and

1374
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 4: it's so therapeutic. So I think, like, to your credit,

1375
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 4: you are absolutely providing some kind of therapy to these women,

1376
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 4: and I think it is going to I think it

1377
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 4: is empowering them to continue on with their life in

1378
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:37,719
Speaker 4: a meaningful way.

1379
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 8: So really, thanks, I mean to your point, that's that's

1380
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 8: something that Tyler really experienced because when you are sharing

1381
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 8: with your family and friends, you don't want to do harm, right,

1382
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 8: or you don't want judgment, like you know where you're

1383
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 8: going to be getting from those people. And I know

1384
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 8: for Tyler, I feel like I can speak speak for

1385
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 8: him in this way where he was afraid to share

1386
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 8: with his mom exactly what happened because he didn't want

1387
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 8: to hurt her, right, Yeah, he never wanted his Protestant.

1388
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 8: He was protecting her. He was going to take this

1389
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 8: to his grave because he knew what this family and

1390
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 8: what this world meant her. And I think through this

1391
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 8: experience of working with us, he's been slowly able, like

1392
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 8: she's been able to like create room to like digest it.

1393
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 8: And she was always game, but like it wasn't a

1394
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 8: matter of her being willing to hear it, it was

1395
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,600
Speaker 8: whether or not he could feel comfortable sharing.

1396
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 5: Powerful. So yeah, yeah, it's next. What's next for Betrayal.

1397
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 8: Going out in the field in August to cover a

1398
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 8: story out of Maryland and.

1399
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 5: Is going to be season five.

1400
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 8: That's going to be season five, which errors in mid January,

1401
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,759
Speaker 8: and so in between now and January, we'll have our Weekly,

1402
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 8: which is a new story every week, and then in

1403
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:07,599
Speaker 8: January we'll bring back the limited run where it's we

1404
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 8: are in one story for eight to ten episodes, and

1405
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:16,360
Speaker 8: season five is this Woman in Maryland and it's about

1406
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 8: intimate partner violence and it is a theme that to

1407
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 8: your question earlier, like what kind of emails do you

1408
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 8: get from listeners, we kept seeing this theme of women

1409
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 8: writing in who were either drugged and raped by their

1410
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 8: husbands and they were videotaped and then put online.

1411
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 5: I'm kind of like speechless. I didn't know that that

1412
01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 5: was happening.

1413
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,240
Speaker 4: So now we're in season four, right, and was there

1414
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 4: any particular challenges that you experience working on season four

1415
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:48,879
Speaker 4: because the subject, well, the husband was a police officer.

1416
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:50,679
Speaker 4: Is there any Yeah?

1417
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 8: I think the biggest thing for season four was that

1418
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 8: Joel Kerrn, who's Caroline's husband, he didn't commit a crime.

1419
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 8: And so when we were looking we were actually going

1420
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:01,720
Speaker 8: to do this story for the Weekly, Caroline wrote into

1421
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,480
Speaker 8: us and so we were like, oh, this is really interesting.

1422
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 8: We did a pre interview and we were going to

1423
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 8: do her story for the weekly series. But then when

1424
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,000
Speaker 8: we did our team meeting, I said, you know, this

1425
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:15,880
Speaker 8: is an interesting story, but there isn't crime. Like, we

1426
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,639
Speaker 8: need a lot of sources, we need documentation to what happened,

1427
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 8: and so we kind of went off and did There

1428
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 8: are cor requests Colorado Records Act where if you can

1429
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 8: look up a police officer and see if they've been

1430
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 8: terminated or suspended to get details and if they've had

1431
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 8: an IA investigation internal affairs investigation, you can get access

1432
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 8: to those records if it is of public interest. So

1433
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 8: we made a request and we were like, this seems

1434
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,680
Speaker 8: like of public interest. He had been terminated, we'd been

1435
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 8: recommended for termination. He ultimately retired, but he had an

1436
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,760
Speaker 8: investigation because he was sleeping with people in his cop

1437
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 8: car out in public, and so we wanted to get

1438
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 8: access to what was actually going on. We had, i

1439
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:02,400
Speaker 8: understood the tip of the iceberg, but then when we

1440
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 8: received the investigation from Colorado Springs Police Department, we had

1441
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:09,400
Speaker 8: then understood what was underneath the water or the like,

1442
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:12,679
Speaker 8: the full iceberg. And so that was the biggest thing.

1443
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 8: It was like, Okay, this is a bigger than just

1444
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 8: one weekly story. This is a whole season. And then

1445
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 8: getting an understanding of the culture at CSPD that kind

1446
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:29,839
Speaker 8: of allows and you know, accepts this behavior to even happen,

1447
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 8: getting people to go on the record that was really

1448
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:33,639
Speaker 8: really tough.

1449
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:37,559
Speaker 4: Well, it's that thin blue line, right that you often

1450
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 4: hear about that police officers don't cross. That's my understanding

1451
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 4: of the terminology, that they don't cross to betray other

1452
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 4: police officers.

1453
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 8: That's right.

1454
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 5: What do you hope listeners take away from Betrayal?

1455
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 8: I want people to walk away with realizing these people

1456
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:57,200
Speaker 8: go through something really real and that's a really powerful

1457
01:20:57,240 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 8: thing to not feel alone. Because when Caroline was listening

1458
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,320
Speaker 8: in the car, she was listening to Jen talk to

1459
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 8: therapists and was like, this is a real thing. There's

1460
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 8: a word for what I'm going through. Somehow that made

1461
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 8: it a little bit lighter.

1462
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:12,960
Speaker 4: As is often the case, at somebody else, as is

1463
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:14,280
Speaker 4: often the case, somebody else has.

1464
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 5: Gone through what I have.

1465
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,639
Speaker 4: I'm not alone. There's actual a word for this. I'm

1466
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:22,800
Speaker 4: not crazy. It's probably healing just to even know other

1467
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:24,760
Speaker 4: people have been through this and there's an actual word

1468
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,639
Speaker 4: for it. Listen, where should people go Andrea to find you?

1469
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,840
Speaker 4: To find betrayal? Any anything listeners should know?

1470
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:35,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean wherever you get your podcasts, so you

1471
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 8: can get episodes one week early in ad free on

1472
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:41,839
Speaker 8: Apple True Crime Plus, which if you like to binge

1473
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 8: or get things early.

1474
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 5: I'm a binger.

1475
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,599
Speaker 8: Great access, so anywhere you get your podcasts.

1476
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 5: And the series they can watch on Hulu currently.

1477
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, so season one and season two are on Hulu

1478
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 8: right now and TBD on season coming come the fall. Yeah,

1479
01:21:59,280 --> 01:21:59,720
Speaker 8: season three.

1480
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 4: We will definitely definitely keep our eyes out. Thank you

1481
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:07,440
Speaker 4: so much for your time. Betrayal of the podcast is Betrayal,

1482
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 4: also the name of the docuseries.

1483
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, since Betrayal the Perfect Husband, Betrayal the Perfect Father,

1484
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 8: it's usually that's our We.

1485
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 4: Will definitely definitely be keeping our eyes out for those

1486
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 4: on Hulu and maybe something upcoming somewhere else. So thank

1487
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:24,000
Speaker 4: you so much, Andrew, thank you so much.

1488
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:27,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, thank you for having me do a beautiful job.

1489
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 2: I can't believe the show is already coming to a close.

1490
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 2: It's been an amazing night. Thank you to our incredible guests.

1491
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:35,680
Speaker 2: Now listen, Josephcott Morgan is going to be joining us

1492
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 2: on Sunday, so be sure to tune in. We are

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Speaker 2: having another scientific Sunday discussing all kinds of forensics. We're

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Speaker 2: not here tomorrow or the next day, so you guys

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Speaker 2: have a great few days and we'll be back next week.

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Speaker 5: This is True Crime Tonight