1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: You know how you sit around some days and you're 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: thinking I should be a jewel thief. But I can't 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: be a jewel thief on my own I need it. 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: But yeah, man, you know I think about that all 5 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: the time. Yes, yeah, about when I'm sitting around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 2: as long as I could be the bag man, that's 7 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: all I'm saying. 8 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: We've got a weird group chat for sure. This classic 9 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: episode is from twenty eighteen where we got super into 10 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: one of the coolest crime stories out there in London 11 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: and the coolest crime cruise out there in London that 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: would not have had us as members because they were 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: no boys loud right, the forty Elephants, all female jewel thieves. 14 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: Let's jump right into. 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show, 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Let's start today's episode off with a question, 17 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: a favorite topic of conversation for those of us here 18 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: at how stuff works when we're just hanging out off 19 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: the air. Have you ever wanted to perpetrate a heist 20 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: like Ocean's eleven style? And if so, did you ever 21 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: envision yourself having a specialty? You know, how all the 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: heist teams always have their specialists, right. 23 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: Well, I've always wanted to be the bag man. 24 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: The bagman? Yeah yeah, what does that entail? It's the 25 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: coolest title. Yeah, it's up there. The bag man generally, 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: And someone write in and correct us if I'm off 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: base here, but the bagman generally is a term describing 28 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: the person who, actually, when you're physically stealing currency or 29 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: jewelry or precious metals, the person who physically holds the bag. 30 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: You see, I'm known for my grip? Is that true? 31 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: Oh yeah? Oh yeah, they say Noel Brown, that kid's 32 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: got a good grip. 33 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: They usually refer to me Ben Bollen in my past 34 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: heist as either the inside man or the shady government liaison. 35 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: I would have called you the brain. 36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 1: That's very kind. That's very kind, And I guess, by 37 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: virtue of his position on the show, our super producer, 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram would probably be and I don't want a pigeonhole, 39 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: you hear, Casey, our computer expert. You got to have 40 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: a hacker. 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's actually funny. There was a character 42 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: in one of the Grand Theft Auto games that reminded 43 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: me a lot of Casey and Casey if you take 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: this as an insult, and you know the character I'm 45 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: talking about, please don't, because I'm more talking about his 46 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: his very intelligent demeanor, not his look. He was a 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: little bit of an odd looking fellow. But he's the 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: guy that ran the warehouse or they planned all the 49 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: heist and had the big chalkboard and they you know, 50 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: drew the maps and they had the table. I remember 51 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: that guy. 52 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, as long as you're not Trevor Phillips Casey. 53 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: And Grove Street forever. Man, is he like the meth 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: head guy? Uh yeah, Trevor. 55 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: Trevor Phillips is the unhinged method guy. 56 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. He lived kind of out in the Salt and 57 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: Sea type area of what's the name of the fake 58 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: La san Andreas? 59 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Well, I want to say there's definitely a 60 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: San Andres. It's got to be San Andreas. 61 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: I have a segue. It's actually gonna work here. Back 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: all right, go for it. We're talking about video games. 63 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: You ever heard of the Assassin's Creed video games? 64 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: Yes, I've played them all. 65 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: Actually, is there is this one out yet? I just 66 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: saw this video. It's called like Assassin's Creed something Legacy 67 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: or something. But it's Abogin or maybe it's about London gangs. 68 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't know if that one's out yet. 69 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: Okay, I saw a preview of this game, and it's 70 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: about London gangs. And in this game, the topic of 71 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: today's episode was paid homage to Oh Wonderfully. 72 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: They talked about the forty Thieves, the Farty Thieves, the 73 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: fire to Elephants gang. 74 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, remember the Gangs of New York. Wasn't there 75 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,559 Speaker 2: a gang called the Farty Thieves. 76 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: An Irish gang, Irish gang? Yeah yeah, And just to 77 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: be clear, we're saying four zero with an Irish accent, 78 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: not not the flatulent Elephants or the flatulent for the 79 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: flatulent Thieves. 80 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 81 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: That's awesome. I want to check that game out. I mean, 82 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: have you played as thousands agree before? 83 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: I have not. 84 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: Oh, it's it's funny, it can be repetitive at times. 85 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: It's a mixture of some really cool fighting and then 86 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: some at times incredibly frustrating jump around solve the puzzle sequences. 87 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: Isn't there a lot of like stock kind of like 88 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: from a distance, keep your distance and then move in 89 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: for the kill kind of stuff. 90 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: But I mean, who hasn't done that totally, just in 91 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: regular life. 92 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so. 93 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: There was a real life gang of thieves, jewel thieves specifically, 94 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: that were known for their successful, very well planned out heist. 95 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: They were active for more than two hundred years. 96 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: See, I thought that was typo when I first saw it. 97 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: Well someone added an extra zero. 98 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Right, No, two hundred years. And this gang was made 99 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: entirely of female criminals, operating out of the Elephant and 100 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: Castle area of London. 101 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: Which I find to be a magnificently whimsical name for 102 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: an area. 103 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: London, and you know, the UK in general, they have 104 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: the very they have wonderful names for places in streets 105 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: and neighborhoods. But I gotta say I'm not a fan 106 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: of British names for food, probably just because I didn't 107 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: grow up there. But like barley water, spotted dick, bubble 108 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: and squeak bubble and squeak bubble and squeak it isn't 109 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: even that egregious, sounds like fun whatever it is. But 110 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: barley water, that just that sounds like a punishment. 111 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: That's beer, right. 112 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: I don't think it is noile, I think it's it 113 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: sounds like it would be a good euphemism for beer. 114 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: But barley water is a it's just boiled grain in 115 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: water that hasn't you know, it still doesn't have alcohol. 116 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: Well it seems like there's no alcohol. Why would you bother? Right, 117 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: why would you bother consuming barley? So when did the 118 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: forty Thieves really? What were their glory days? 119 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: No, we talked about that. They were also called the 120 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: forty Elephants. Yes, yeah, so that's what I'm going to 121 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: refer to them as because they lived in this Elephant 122 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 2: and Castle district. They were also they were self contained 123 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: and they were an all female band of heisters. I 124 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: don't know what you want to call it, criminals, but 125 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: they were backed up by another gang of kind of 126 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: really rough and tumble dudes who were the Elephant and 127 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: Castle Gang and kind of like were almost like their muscle. 128 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: But yeah, so they were active possibly as early as 129 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds based on police records, and a lot 130 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: of this comes from a book called the Gangs of 131 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: London by a guy named Brian McDonald, and he says 132 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: that the forty Elephant Gang was probably the most active 133 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: between the eighteen seventies and the nineteen fifties. But again, 134 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: go back as far as possibly the seventeen hundreds. 135 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: Right, it may have been operating without being recognized. Brian also, 136 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: Brian McDonald also has a book specifically about the forty 137 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: Elephants and one of their most notable leaders, who we'll 138 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: get to in a moment, but the book is called 139 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: Alice Diamond and the Forty Elephants. I appreciate that you 140 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: mentioned the Elephant and Castle Mob. They were, in a 141 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: way the muscle. They were headed by these guys called 142 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: the McDonald brothers, and while they were allied together, they 143 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: differed widely in their methods. So the Elephant Castle Mob 144 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: they were more kind of bruisers, but the forty Thieves 145 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: or the forty Elephants were much more calculated in their crime. 146 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: They would play the long game. At times, they would 147 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: masquerade as housemaids for wealthy families. They would use false 148 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 1: references and back up the references as well. And during 149 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century they were led by someone called 150 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: Alice Diamond, known variously as the Queen of the Forty 151 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: Thieves or as Diamond Danny. 152 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: That's the thing. Then they were a very very militaristically 153 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: run organization. From their inception, they operated in a series 154 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: of like cells, almost like a terrorist group, and they 155 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: always were led by a queen. This Anni Diamond was 156 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: just kind of the most notorious and influential one. 157 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's correct. There were many, because again, this gang 158 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: was active for around two hundred years, far surpassing the 159 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: lifespan of the average person at the time and in 160 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: their heyday. It's strange because they were romanticized a bit 161 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: by papers of the time. In one paper they were 162 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: referred to as Amazons, who were handsome women about six 163 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: feet tall. We can walk through maybe some of their methods, 164 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: because I know we made them sound like they only 165 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: did disguise work, but that was just one of their 166 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,599 Speaker 1: many strategies for bilking people out of jewelry and valuables. 167 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: They did a shoplifting method that is actually still common 168 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: and in practice in parts of the world today, which 169 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: is overpowering a store through the sheer volume of people participating. 170 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: All of the gang members would rush into a store 171 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: from various entrances, and then since there were too many 172 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: people to apprehend, they would just grab everything they can 173 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: and then they would flee out of the store, heading 174 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: in multiple directions, knowing that not all of them could 175 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: be caught. 176 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: Not only that, they had like reserve funds for when 177 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: they had to bail out the one or two stragglers 178 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 2: that did get caught. And they basically were considered like 179 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: untouchable because they had deals running with the p Lease. 180 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: And this is a very corrupt period in English history. 181 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: You have to remember. This is like on the tail 182 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: end of the Industrial Revolution. Things were changing really really quickly, 183 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 2: and it was kind of like just a free for 184 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: all as far as these street gangs, of which there 185 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: were many, and I just wanted to rattle off a 186 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: few other ones in there. You know, in this part 187 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: of the country is huge. You've got gangs like the Scuttlers, 188 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 2: the High Rip Gang, the Peaky Blinders. In Birmingham, you've 189 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: got the cock Road Gang and other such amazingly absurd 190 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 2: and beautiful names. But the forty Elephants had an incredible 191 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: reputation for being ruthless and being cunning and being like 192 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: I said before, practically untouchable because of the way they 193 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: ran their operation in these cells and like you're saying, 194 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: been the way they were able to kind of scatter, you. 195 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, kind of a hydra organization cut off one 196 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: head and two will rise in its place. I don't 197 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: think we mentioned that Diamond Annie was ruling during the 198 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: interwar period, so she's around nineteen ten or the late 199 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: nineteen tens, so World War One has already started. She 200 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: and her lieutenant Babyfaced Maggie, which I love these nicknames. 201 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: Everybody's got a great nickname. They're the ones who reputedly 202 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: had the idea of partnering with the Elephant and Castle 203 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: Mob to make sure that they had enforcers. There's an 204 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: excellent article about this gang written by Amelia Hill for 205 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: The Guardian called Girl Gangscript on London Underworld Revealed, and 206 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: it dives into some of the work of Brian McDonald. 207 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: But it also gives us a good context for the 208 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: time in which this gang existed, or this Glory Day era, 209 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: because they were taking advantage of the misogynistic chauvinistic attitudes 210 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: of the time. You know, people thought, oh, a woman 211 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be a criminal if she's dressed. 212 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I heard this somewhere, Ben, and let 213 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: me know if you did, or if you think this 214 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: is completely bogus, But I heard that they sort of 215 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: had an advantage because women weren't allowed to do very 216 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: much on their own in this time. But one thing 217 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: they were allowed to do was shop right on their own. 218 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 2: And it may have even been that they were not 219 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: paid as close attention to because of the fact that 220 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: you're saying that they're wearing nice clothes and that they're 221 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: on their own, unaccompanied without a chaperone. 222 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: You want to respect their privacy. You don't want to 223 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: be forward in this very repressed age. So there were 224 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: some upsides here, which we can explore later. But there 225 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: are some other organizational things that they were very talented at. 226 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: They had their own territory like most gangs do, but 227 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: they demanded a percentage of all crimes committed in their territory. 228 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: So if there's another gang, we'll make up a gang. 229 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: Let's say the Devin rye on Sandwich gang steals something. 230 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what they steal, they still get wind 231 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: of it. They still hats yeah, and then the forty 232 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: thieves or the forty elephants find out about it. They 233 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: will demand a percentage from that haberdasher's robbery because it 234 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: happened on their turf. And then if someone refused to 235 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: pay up got a bit too big for their breeches 236 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: or perhaps their trousers. Then the gang would send their 237 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: elephant and castle mob to beat the snot out of 238 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: them or kidnap their notable members or their family members 239 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: until their percentage was paid. 240 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 2: And that's not to say that the female members of 241 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: this gang weren't bruisers in and of themselves. Diamond Annie, 242 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: for example, got her name because she had a fistful 243 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: of diamond rings that if she clocked you in the 244 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: face with, you'd probably lose an eye or you know, 245 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: you would not be doing very well. And they were 246 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: known for wriggling out of tight situations with the law 247 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: with violent methods. They'd carry blackjacks and straight razors and 248 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: all kinds of concealed weapons. But for the big stuff, 249 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: like you said, the door to door, you know, give 250 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: us our what do you call, like our vig or 251 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: whatever you know, or like the what do they call 252 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: in the Sopranos when they get in collections, right going 253 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: door to door? They sent left that to the big 254 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: burly dudes. 255 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there might also be the matter of protection fees 256 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: or something like that. Common mind, Yeah, exactly exactly. They 257 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: also did something that may surprise people. They they diversified 258 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: their crime, which makes it more mafioso and less just 259 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: street gang. They were. They were very into blackmailing men, 260 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: seducing married men or men of and then forcing them 261 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: to pay either a huge lump sum or a continuing 262 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: almost the service fee not to reveal their carnal predilections. 263 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're kind of leaning on some of the 264 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: most well known members of this gang, like Diamond Anny 265 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: in particular. Like you said, I mean that book that 266 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: McDonald wrote focuses a lot on her. But there's a 267 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: lot of periods in this gang history that we don't 268 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: know a whole lot about other than that they did exist. 269 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: Right right, because they were also successful at functioning away 270 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: from the spotlight. It's weird because for almost two hundred years, 271 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, they were playing a very dangerous game. If 272 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: any of them were caught, they could be sentenced to 273 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: somewhere between three and twelve months hard labor or three 274 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: years in prison and hard labor at the time. We've 275 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: talked about this in previous episodes was absolutely no joke. 276 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: You know, you're like, un what is it you're unraveling rope? 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: I think that's that's one of the things you had 278 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: to do you dig in ditches. And despite these high 279 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: risk and these serious consequences, a lot of the gang members, 280 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: maybe even the majority, were longtimers. Maggie Hughes or Babyface. 281 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: Maggie had shoplifting convictions that went back to the age 282 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: of fourteen. And when these as I think we said earlier, 283 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: when these women or members of the gang were caught, 284 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: they did have their own independent support systems. So your 285 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: family members or you know, your dependents would be taken 286 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: care of, or they would help you fight the system 287 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: get out of jail. But another I like that you 288 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: mentioned the fact that there were many other people who 289 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: were lost to history that were members of this gang. 290 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: We know a few. There's for example, Ada Wellman, who 291 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: was convicted of shoplifting from Army and Navy stores in 292 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: Victoria in nineteen twenty one, and she we know she 293 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: was still an active member of the gang almost twenty 294 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: years later because she shows up in police reports eighteen 295 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: years after her nineteen twenty one arrest when she got 296 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: jailed for four months due to another crime. So these 297 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: are career criminals. It's not like a side job. It 298 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like they were doing that thing. So common 299 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 1: in heist movies where we'd say, you know, Casey nol, 300 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: let's get the gang back together for one last score. 301 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: Now this is a perma score. This is a life. 302 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: I mean, this is a generational thing. If we're talking 303 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: about two hundred years of this, I'm going to call 304 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: it an organization because that's clearly what it was, and 305 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: it was maintained that way for quite a long time. 306 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: You know, this stuff, these tricks of the trade would 307 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: be passed down, you know, like I mean, it's really fascinating. 308 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: So they had one, I guess, great problem that any 309 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: shoplifting network will run in who if they are successful, 310 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: And the problem was they had abundance of stolen riches. 311 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: How do they get rid of this? How do they 312 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: take something that they have stolen, for instance, a unique 313 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: piece of jewelry right, or very high quality clothing and 314 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: translate that into cold, hard cash. This meant they had 315 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: to create a distribution network so that they wouldn't you know, 316 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: because if they stole something and then just waited a 317 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: week and start of wearing those clothes or selling diamonds 318 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: on the street, boom, They're back to hard labor again. 319 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: So they instead relied on a network of fences and 320 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: then unaffiliated street market traders and of course pawn shops. 321 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: So part of the clothing they stole would be just 322 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: sold to a clothing store. In the clothing store just 323 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: to make some scratch, all they would do is replace 324 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: the labels, so you would say, oh, that's not a Hardford, 325 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: sure Blackfoot Boustier. I'm just making so. 326 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: You were close though. I think one of the big 327 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 2: stories they robbed had a very similar name to that, 328 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: And just. 329 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: Like the gang itself, this network, while being fluid, also 330 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: prospered for a long time. The forty Thieves seemed to 331 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: have been at their glory days in the nineteen twenties 332 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: and nineteen thirties. So that's why we know so much 333 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: about Alice Diamond or Diamond Annie, the woman with a 334 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: punch to beware of. Oh, I guess we could talk 335 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: a little bit about her background if you want, just briefly. 336 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: Oh, we absolutely should have been. But I dude, just 337 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: want to point out the names of some of the 338 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 2: biggest retail stores in London on the high Street that 339 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: they hit. It was because you made up a beautiful 340 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: one and it made me think of it. It wasn't 341 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: that far off, ben We've got Debenham and Freebody. 342 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: Oh what do they sell. 343 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 2: You know, ladies Lingerie? It is more of a department 344 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: store they sold, you say, still at all? You know, 345 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: It's just sort of like a Sears type situation. I 346 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: mentionin like departments, the department Herod's exactly. Okay. 347 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: So since we are lucky enough to know a little 348 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: bit about the notorious Alice Diamond, let's let's look into 349 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: her background. She was born in eighteen ninety six in 350 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: June of eighteen ninety six in Lambeth Workhouse Hospital, and 351 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: Diamond was her real name. It wasn't just a cool moniker. 352 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: Her father was named Thomas Diamond. Her parents had applied 353 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: for a maternity birth under the name of Black before 354 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: they married, because at the time Alice would have been 355 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: an illegitimate child because she had been born out of wedlock. However, 356 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: since they decided instead to marry shortly before Alice was 357 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: born to avoid the problem. Her father had at least 358 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: three criminal convictions, including one where he assaulted the son 359 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: of the Lord Mayor of London by punching his head 360 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: through a pane of glass and a door, and Alice 361 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: turned out to be the eldest of seven children. One 362 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: of her younger sisters also joined the Forty Thieves gang, 363 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: and one of her brothers, Tommy, became a member of 364 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: the Elephant and Castle Gang. 365 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: Bid. Can I just point out really quick that I 366 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: have seen it as Alice and also Annie. Yes, yeah, 367 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 2: just real quick, because I was confused for a second. 368 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: I was about to cop to uh do saying the 369 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: wrong names. Now I'm looking back over our sources. It's 370 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: definitely both are said. 371 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,239 Speaker 1: Like many criminals, she added Anne and Alice to her 372 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: name or referred to herself as that multiple. 373 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: That makes perfect sense. It's like an alias, so she 374 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: can't get pinned down. 375 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: There you go, just like sometimes I'll be Max Powers 376 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: astronaut with a secret or Chris from Boston, who again 377 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: is retired. We mentioned him on a previous episode. 378 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: People love Chris from Boston. 379 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: He just you know, the brightest lights shine briefest. So 380 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: here's to you, Chris. That's sad, it's good, it's it's okay. 381 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: We've got to move on, you know, circle of life 382 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: and all that. As far as alias is, nike aasg 383 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: Alice's or Anne's criminal career began in nineteen twelve because 384 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: she was caught stealing chocolate. In nineteen fifteen, she was 385 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: officially named the Queen of the Forty Thieves. The previous 386 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: queen was someone named Mary Carr, also known as Polly car. 387 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: But we don't know a ton of stuff about Mary. 388 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: We mostly know when it goes to who was the 389 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: Queen of the forty Thieves, we mostly know about Alice 390 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: or Anne. And when you think about it, it sounds 391 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: like a swashbuckling life, or it sounds like a maybe 392 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: a romanticized thing. But it was a brutal life and 393 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: they believed that the only alternative to this would be 394 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: a crushing existence in poverty, you know what I mean. 395 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: Or possibly crushed under the thumb of some man. 396 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: And they did live it up. They were well known 397 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: for their parties, that's right. They would really throw down 398 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: at pubs and social clubs. And I think the fact 399 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: that they also because of their reputation, I would imagine 400 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: they were allowed and permitted to do things that you know, 401 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: other women would not be because people were scared of 402 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: them and they didn't want to like raise up right, yeah, 403 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: because that wouldn't have been proper for a group of 404 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: women to have a big old, you know, drunken to 405 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: do right, and that also gives them some support. That 406 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: kind of lifestyle gives them some support in parts of 407 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: the population, right because you know, if the forty thieves 408 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: or the forty elephants are coming to the restaurant or 409 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: the club or something, that it's going to be a 410 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: wild night, right. I mean you can part. You might 411 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: get blackmailed later, but you could party. 412 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: That's right. I mean they were getting the equivalent, the 413 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds equivalent of like bottle service. You know, 414 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: they were like really really dropping some cash. 415 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: And we do have to thank McDonald's. We can't think 416 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: of it enough because Brian McDonald uncovered a lot of 417 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: this previously unknown information by hitting the bricks, scouring official 418 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: birth and death records, perusing marriage indixes. A local newspaper 419 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: reports hunting down out of print books at the British 420 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: Library to read contemporary accounts, and everything he found was verified. 421 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: There's a thing where, like imagine you grow up in 422 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: a very impoverished situation and you say, well, I can 423 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: slave away at a minimum wage job until I get ill, 424 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: at which point I have to be consigned to the 425 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: poorhouse or workhouse or something and probably die early of 426 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: a disease that may well have been preventable. Or I 427 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: can break social norms. I can not only become a criminal, 428 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: but I can do it well. According to McDonald, they 429 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: idolized glamorous movie star and the decadent living of the 430 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties flapper society. So they read about the scandalous, 431 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: saalacious behavior of people born into privilege or celebrity, and 432 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: they wanted to emulate them in a way. It's in 433 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: a way it is very similar to the stories we 434 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: hear now about modern drug dealers, right, you know, I 435 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: mean Atlanta is full of strip club. 436 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: They want the chains, they want the grills, they want 437 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: all this stuff, the status symbols or whatever. But ultimately 438 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: they're living a very risky and potentially short existence in 439 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 2: order to have those things. 440 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: Did I ever tell you about that excellent freakonomics report 441 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: that broke down how much per hour drug dealers actually 442 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: make on average? 443 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: You were saying it wasn't great. No, it's the option 444 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 2: unless you're like the distributor or whatever. Yeah, the high 445 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: level individual that's really pulling the strings that's where you 446 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: make the big money. 447 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: Right, It's a very unfairly distributed hierarchy typically, So if 448 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about that, and it is 449 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: tangentially related to this episode, but it's fascinating information. Nonetheless, 450 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: I'd like to recommend a TED talk by the author 451 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: Stephen Levitt, who presents the data he found on the 452 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: finances of drug dealing. These folks are not living the 453 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: high life. It is much more what's the best way 454 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: to say it, No, it's just terrible. There's not a 455 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: good way to say it. It's a terrible, terrible life. 456 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: Don't sell drugs. I mean, if you're looking to make 457 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: a lot of money off of it, don't expect to. 458 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: Well, how about forming a very organized cell based gang 459 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: and doing smash and grabs for a living. 460 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: That would be there's an interesting topic there too, nol, 461 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: because that would be much more difficult, at least here 462 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: in the US in the modern day, and definitely in 463 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom for a few years 464 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: running now has had the largest amount of closed circuit 465 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: television cameras CCTV cameras per capita, I believe in the world. 466 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: So you're much more likely to get caught on film. Right, 467 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: You're also much more easy to track if you have 468 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: a cell phone, since we all have those GPS locators 469 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: on our phones. It was easier to get away with 470 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: crime back then. 471 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I mean like it was just rampant. I 472 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: can't imagine who would want to go into business. Have 473 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 2: you seen the ballad of buster scrugs? 474 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I've seen it several times. 475 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 2: It makes me think of the bank teller kind of 476 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: situation where you're just constantly on the ready with like 477 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: guns loaded and pointed at every potential person that's going 478 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: to walk on that door and rob you. I would 479 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 2: just think that some of these shopkeepers must have been 480 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: quite foolish for at least a minute, you know, with 481 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: to allow this kind of stuff to keep happening. I 482 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: don't know, I wonder. 483 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, And also, what can you do if you have 484 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: if you have a small shop, are you supposed to 485 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: continually employ five people just for security on the off 486 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: chance that something happens one day? I mean you're throwing 487 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: money in a hole until the robbery happens, it's right, 488 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: And maybe wondering well, Ben, well, no, well, casey, this 489 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: sounds like quite an adventure and it would make for 490 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: a great film, Like you guys are doing a history show. 491 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: Are the forty Elephants still around today? 492 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: No? No, they're not. And again you don't even really 493 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 2: hear much about them at all until this book came out. 494 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: But in the mid twenties, there was a member of 495 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: the gang named Marie Britton who kind of on her 496 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: own through her actions, and this kind of chain of 497 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: events led to the dissolution of this crime dynasty. I'm 498 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: going to combon to go so far as to call 499 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: it that two hundred years Is that a dynasty. I 500 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: think that's a dynasty. So yeah, she had fallen for 501 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: a dude who was not a part of this CD 502 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: under world, and you know, it's a network, and it's 503 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: sort of like West Side Story, you know, where it's 504 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: like the Jets and the Sharks or whatever. You fall 505 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: in love with a shark. It's not okay with the Jets, right, 506 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: It's a little different. This person was neither a Shark 507 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: nor a Jet. This person was outside of the world entirely. 508 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: They were a square of civilians exactly because Marie had 509 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: fallen in love with someone outside of London's underworld. She 510 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: had also broken one of the gang's many internal rules 511 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: thou shalt not date a square. So she was called 512 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: up to see Alice and babyface Maggie, and Marie was scared. 513 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: She brought along her father to protect her as her 514 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: own muscle, essentially, and they, you know, we can speculate 515 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: on the the essence of their conversation. Alice and Maggie say, Hey, 516 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: you've got to drop this guy. He's lame. He's not 517 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: in the. 518 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 2: He's not one of us. 519 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: He's not one of us. He's not in our crime 520 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: sororities or ffiliated crime fraternities. And Marie says, no, I'm 521 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: not going to do it, at which point Maggie whips 522 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: out her aforementioned straight razor and attacks Marie's father, Slice 523 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: and they escape. Marie and her father managed to escape, 524 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: but Alice is not gonna let this go. 525 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: Alice sounds like a real tough cookie. Oh yeah, she's 526 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 2: not not for the for the better necessarily. I mean, 527 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: I guess if she's she's the kind of person you 528 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: probably want in your corner. But if you make an 529 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: enemy of her, of her, she's gonna come at you 530 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: with a straight razor, right, And she's gonna come to 531 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: your house and start hurling rocks through the windows and 532 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: then force entry into the home and search manically for you. 533 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 2: I'm speaking of myself as though I were Marie and 534 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: my father and they're you know, going to ransack the place, 535 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: and in doing this attract the attention of the police 536 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: because they became a riot. 537 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: Basically not sting in the police. They weren't on the 538 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: scene yet. No, so what happens. What happens? 539 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, they slashed their way through this house 540 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: looking for Marie and her father and ended up injuring 541 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: some of the other folks that were around, and the 542 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 2: cops came. The fuzz showed out because this is a 543 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: whole mele, you know, and the ring leader of the 544 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: forty Elephants, Alice Diamonds Diamond, Alice Annie Diamonds Diamond, Annie, 545 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: was arrested. 546 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it didn't go well for her, No, it didn't. 547 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: They went to trial. They were easily convicted Alice and Maggie. 548 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: That is because you know, this. 549 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: Is baby face Maggie. 550 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, baby face Maggie, because they clearly did this. But 551 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: the prosecution, despite the fact that there were multiple members 552 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: of the gang attacking Marie's house. The prosecution only convicted 553 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: or only even charged Alice and Maggie because you see, 554 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: according to the rumors in the speculation, certain gentlemen in 555 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: high places of society did not want the details of 556 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: the blackmail activities to come to light. So maybe we 557 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: can conjecture with a fair amount of certitude, maybe there 558 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: were a couple of people in the government or high 559 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: end business who said, look, you can convict the two 560 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: ring leaders, but gray Tooth Desdemona can't go to court. 561 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: That's right, my wife can't find out. Yeah, that's right. 562 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: And you know, subsequently, there was a vacuum left behind 563 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: because Annie, Diamond, Annie, Diamond, Alice whatever you want to 564 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: call her, the Diamonds call that was put away and 565 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: sentenced to hard labor for how many years? 566 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: Well, let's see, she was imprisoned in nineteen twenty five, 567 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: and the power vacuum has a pretty swift effect on 568 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: the gang. By nineteen thirty, they're falling out of power, 569 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: but people are still claiming membership of the gang, and 570 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: they're still shoplifting up into the nineteen fifties. 571 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: But it sure seems like Diamond Annie is the one 572 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: who kind of had that iron fisted control over the 573 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 2: organization to the point where they existed almost as a 574 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: central power in the London crime world. So when she 575 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: went away, it kind of reverted back to this more 576 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 2: petty thievery and they sort of lost their grip on 577 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: the underworld in general, right. 578 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: Right, And by the nineteen fifties the gang had just 579 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: lost too much power. Maggie Hill ended up dying in 580 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine. Don't know where she was buried, but 581 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: her best friend was Alice Diamond, obviously, And who's the 582 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: in Casino? Is it Joe Peshy? Who's the wild card? Oh? 583 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 2: Yeah? His character? 584 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So Maggie Hill, by way of comparison, is kind 585 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: of the Joe Peshi of this group. And there's not 586 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: really a Robert de Niro. If there is, it's Alice. 587 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: But she in court attempted to attack members of the 588 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: court during the. 589 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: Trial it with a pen. 590 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: Who knows. She was like a like a real life 591 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: cartoon Tasmanian devil. 592 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: But I also read that she did not keep her 593 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: composure when sentenced, that she's freaked out, and yeah, but 594 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 2: like got really upset, was not stoic at all, was 595 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 2: very like emotional. 596 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: And railed against the court. Yes, probably because she saw 597 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: more than a few people associated with their crime ring 598 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: in court on the other side. 599 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: With their pious wigs on. 600 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: We know that Alice Diamond passed away in a place 601 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: called Southwark, close to the East Lane market in nineteen 602 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: fifty two. So this gang pretty much pretty much expire. 603 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: It's death Knell is the last imprisonment, and then later 604 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: the death of Diamond Dallas or Diamond Ann. And that's 605 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: not to say gangs don't continue in London today. 606 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 2: Oh no, for sure, but it's you know what the 607 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: thing about London too is you always hear about how 608 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 2: gangs there don't use there's not as much gun violence 609 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 2: because they're a lot harder to get. So you gotta 610 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 2: wonder if like the gang culture has kind of like 611 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 2: been influenced by this more kind of crafty gang culture 612 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: where it's more about like figuring stuff out and being 613 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 2: sharp on your feet, you know what I mean, as 614 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: opposed to just like running in and blasting up the place. 615 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 2: Because you just don't hear about a lot of gun 616 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 2: violence in London. 617 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: Not near as much as there is in the US 618 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: or some other countries, but knives. We have to keep 619 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: in mind. One of my old instructors used to always 620 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: try to hammer this into our heads that knives up 621 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: close are more dangerous than guns, oh for sure. So 622 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: they they're probably walking around with some blaze a blade 623 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: or two. 624 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, though, two wheeled a knife. You 625 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: gotta be a little more brave and a little more 626 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 2: clever and have a little more training kind of you know, 627 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: you got to know what to do with it. 628 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: Well said, Well said, And for the record, I agree. 629 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 2: So I guess I'm saying, way to go London crime 630 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: world for being a little less lazy. 631 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: I don't know if I if I agree with that, 632 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: of man, It's it's true, though, while gangs still exist 633 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: and even thrive in some parts of London, there's not 634 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: really at this moment in time, something like the forty Elephants, 635 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: unless you want to say the banking cartels are gangs, 636 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: but they rob people in a different way very much. 637 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: So do you like how I had to walk around 638 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: the block to throw that little piece of shade in? 639 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 2: I loved it. 640 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, man, the city of London, it's it's sketchy. 641 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: The whole thing's sketchy, but that is the story of 642 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: the Forty Thieves, the forty Elephants. 643 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 2: Alice Diamond Diamond, Alice Annie Diamonds, Diamond Anny, the all. 644 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: Female crime syndicate or dynasty, which we think is appropriate here, 645 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: who ran shoplifting and somehow got away with it for 646 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: almost two centuries. 647 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 2: I want to see their like internal records, you know, 648 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 2: for that two hundred years, Like I want to see 649 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: the turnover of like who who is in charge? If 650 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 2: any of that was on paper, it probably wasn't. It 651 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 2: was probably all just like oral. 652 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: I wonder, yeah, because it's it's a huge liability to 653 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: have that laund but it's prestigious and it would be 654 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: It would also really help out Marnie Dickens, who as 655 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen was developing a series on the Forty 656 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: Elephants for Forty Thieves for the BBC, and it has 657 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: the potential to be a Peaky Blinders kind of thing. 658 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: Did you ever see that show? 659 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: I started watching. I watched the first season and I 660 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 2: like it. 661 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw I think I saw the first episode. 662 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: I started wondering whether I should also carry a razor 663 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: around in my hat. 664 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, our boss Connall really likes it a lot. 665 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: I could see that. That's classic Connell. Have you ever 666 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: seen Peaky Blind jers Casey. 667 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: No, I don't think I've even heard of it. Yeah, It'scott, 668 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 2: Silly and Murphy in it. It's about a gang in Ireland. 669 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 2: I want to say, though, right, wasn't an Irish gang 670 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 2: like around the same time in the early twenties. I 671 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: don't know they were around for two hundred years though. No. 672 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: Would you guys watch a show based on this crime Syndica? Yes, 673 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: I would too. Am wondering who they would cast. Let 674 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: us know who you think would play an excellent Alice 675 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: or Annie Diamond? And who is unhinged enough to be 676 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: a babyface Maggie in your book? 677 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: You know who I could pictures being baby face Maggie. 678 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 2: Who's that Melissa McCarthy. I like she's got some acting chops, man, 679 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 2: she knows all these kind of goofy comedy movies. Yeah. 680 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 2: I think she's got the got the range. I think 681 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 2: she's got it man. 682 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna think about this and come back. 683 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: It is the end of the episode, which means that 684 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 1: if we are still carrying on this tradition. My friend, 685 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: it is time for us to give a comic book 686 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: recommendation or two. 687 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 2: Wow, we're gonna keep keep going with this? 688 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: Huh, well, we said we would give it a shot. 689 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 2: I like it. Have you read Saga? Yes, by Brian Cavon. 690 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 2: I've only read a little bit of it, And again, 691 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 2: I'm not as much of a comic head as you are, 692 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 2: but I have enough of an idea of what's out 693 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 2: there to give a recommendation for a couple episodes. But yeah, 694 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: check out Saga by Brian Cavon. It's sort of a 695 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 2: sci fi star crossed space adventure. Was that a good 696 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: way of a Franks? 697 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? That's great. Yeah, it breaks a lot of genre rules. 698 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: I think you'll really enjoy it. 699 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 2: He also wrote Why the Last Man, which I did 700 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: read every moment of about the last man on Earth 701 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 2: after a disease kind of wipes out the male population 702 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 2: and this one dude still around. Everyone else's female. That's 703 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: a good recommendation for this episode. Actually, yeah, that was 704 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: actually mine. No way, Oh no, my bad. I only 705 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: said it because this is Brian, great writer, and I 706 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 2: believe that's being adapted into a big old series. 707 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: Right right, right, and for people who have yet to 708 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: read it, this won't spoil anything. There is a character 709 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: in Why the Last Man named Agent three point fifty five, 710 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: and that comes from a real and mysterious part of 711 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: early US history. So if you want to learn more 712 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: about the real life Agent three fifty five, check out 713 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: our other show stuff. They don't want you to. 714 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 2: Know that was just recent, wasn't it. 715 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, And I don't want to ruin it, 716 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: but check it. 717 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 2: Out, dude, please, And in the meantime, always always want 718 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 2: to thank Casey Pegrim, our super producer. I don't know 719 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 2: where we'd be without you. We would we would sound 720 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: like fools, that's for sure. So thank you to Casey. 721 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 2: Thank you to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. 722 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: Yes, and thank you to Christopher hasiotis our research associate 723 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: for this episode. Thanks also to our other research associates 724 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: eves And and Gabe. Thank you, Nol, and thank you 725 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: for listening. Folks. Hope this I don't know, I don't 726 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: want to say. I hope this inspires people because they 727 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 1: don't want us to get characterized as the inspiration behind 728 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: a new gang of jewel thieves. 729 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 2: You know what, you do you people out there, whatever 730 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: you think be the change you want to see in 731 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 2: the world. 732 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: So also let us know if you have found a 733 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: story of another crime ring this successful, because regardless of 734 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: your opinions about the internal workings or the consequences or 735 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: their own strategies, there's no arguing with it. They were very, 736 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: very successful. You can tell us about this on Instagram. 737 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter. You can visit us 738 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: on Facebook, where we'd love to introduce you to your 739 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: fellow Ridiculous Historians on our community page Ridiculous Historians. 740 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,320 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 741 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.