1 00:00:17,242 --> 00:00:30,362 Speaker 1: Pushkin in twenty fifteen, Western Indonesia and Singapore were covered 2 00:00:30,402 --> 00:00:32,042 Speaker 1: in toxic black smoke. 3 00:00:32,442 --> 00:00:35,321 Speaker 2: They had family living in Singapore and they couldn't breathe 4 00:00:35,362 --> 00:00:38,922 Speaker 2: for months. It was just billowing black beet smoke. 5 00:00:39,362 --> 00:00:42,682 Speaker 1: Tim Sahai is a climate policy expert at Johns Hopkins. 6 00:00:42,802 --> 00:00:46,242 Speaker 1: We talked to him last episode. Like everyone else living 7 00:00:46,282 --> 00:00:48,962 Speaker 1: in Singapore at the time, his family was living in 8 00:00:49,042 --> 00:00:53,522 Speaker 1: hazy smoke for months. Culprit wasn't a forest fire. It 9 00:00:53,682 --> 00:00:56,842 Speaker 1: was well, in a way, kind of everything we've been 10 00:00:56,882 --> 00:01:01,562 Speaker 1: talking about this season. The US had passed laws incentivizing 11 00:01:01,642 --> 00:01:05,161 Speaker 1: corn ethanol, so all the corn that used to be 12 00:01:05,282 --> 00:01:08,842 Speaker 1: used for corn oil in cooking was being used for 13 00:01:08,962 --> 00:01:14,362 Speaker 1: ethanol instead. World needed a replacement for cheap cakes and cookies, 14 00:01:14,522 --> 00:01:17,601 Speaker 1: and it found it in palm oil. Throughout the early 15 00:01:17,601 --> 00:01:21,841 Speaker 1: two thousands, much of the rainforests of Borneo were replaced 16 00:01:21,842 --> 00:01:26,321 Speaker 1: with palm oil plantations, and plantation owners would use fire 17 00:01:26,881 --> 00:01:30,642 Speaker 1: to quickly clear the rainforests. Then that fire would spread 18 00:01:30,762 --> 00:01:35,441 Speaker 1: to dried out peatland, which can burn underground for weeks. 19 00:01:36,161 --> 00:01:40,841 Speaker 2: You ended up with vast underground peat fires in Indonesia 20 00:01:40,922 --> 00:01:43,282 Speaker 2: that you just couldn't put out. You just couldn't put 21 00:01:43,282 --> 00:01:46,122 Speaker 2: them out, so it is billowing it all out right, 22 00:01:46,202 --> 00:01:49,162 Speaker 2: And a billion tons of CO two were produced. 23 00:01:49,402 --> 00:01:52,442 Speaker 1: From June to October twenty fifteen, about two and a 24 00:01:52,482 --> 00:01:57,522 Speaker 1: half million hectares of Indonesia burned. When Tim sees what's 25 00:01:57,522 --> 00:02:00,681 Speaker 1: happening now with corn ethanol in the US and Brazil, 26 00:02:01,322 --> 00:02:04,562 Speaker 1: he thinks about what his family members went through in Singapore. 27 00:02:05,202 --> 00:02:07,722 Speaker 2: So if you grow soybean oil, for example, you grow 28 00:02:07,762 --> 00:02:11,242 Speaker 2: corn oil and you say, okay, great, this thing is 29 00:02:11,282 --> 00:02:14,681 Speaker 2: awesome and green, And now everybody starts to make sort 30 00:02:14,682 --> 00:02:18,281 Speaker 2: of more corn oil, and that can sort of cause 31 00:02:18,282 --> 00:02:22,082 Speaker 2: the displacement of land that was previously growing something else. 32 00:02:22,642 --> 00:02:24,602 Speaker 2: And so then the question becomes, how do you count 33 00:02:24,682 --> 00:02:28,682 Speaker 2: that displaced the amount of land into your accounting methods. 34 00:02:29,282 --> 00:02:32,762 Speaker 1: Meaning there's a domino effect to growing more corn for fuel. 35 00:02:33,482 --> 00:02:37,082 Speaker 1: In Mato Grosso, where Bruce Rastetter and his Brazilian business 36 00:02:37,122 --> 00:02:41,322 Speaker 1: partners Marino Franz, Palo Franz and Miguel vas Ribero have 37 00:02:41,522 --> 00:02:45,682 Speaker 1: driven a massive corn boom, we've seen displacement of a 38 00:02:45,762 --> 00:02:49,722 Speaker 1: bunch of other kinds of agriculture and vegetation, not to 39 00:02:49,762 --> 00:02:53,442 Speaker 1: mention a whole lot more pollution in the US, the 40 00:02:53,522 --> 00:02:58,362 Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency used to require the business's account for 41 00:02:58,442 --> 00:03:02,602 Speaker 1: this kind of impact. It was called land use and 42 00:03:02,722 --> 00:03:04,122 Speaker 1: land use change. 43 00:03:04,442 --> 00:03:07,642 Speaker 2: This sounds terribly dull, and everybody's as and eyes like 44 00:03:07,682 --> 00:03:10,962 Speaker 2: you immediately glaze over. But you and I know that 45 00:03:11,122 --> 00:03:17,882 Speaker 2: this has enormous, absolutely transformational, in fact, horrific impacts upon 46 00:03:17,922 --> 00:03:18,282 Speaker 2: the world. 47 00:03:18,362 --> 00:03:18,522 Speaker 3: Right. 48 00:03:18,522 --> 00:03:20,522 Speaker 2: So, in the two thousand and seven sort of renewable 49 00:03:20,562 --> 00:03:24,162 Speaker 2: fuel mandate, which is what created this enormous boom of 50 00:03:24,362 --> 00:03:26,762 Speaker 2: corn ethanol in America, Well what happened. 51 00:03:29,042 --> 00:03:32,042 Speaker 1: That's the renewable fuel standard that you heard Bruce Rastetter 52 00:03:32,202 --> 00:03:35,202 Speaker 1: asking US politicians about in the last episode. 53 00:03:35,362 --> 00:03:38,762 Speaker 4: Let's talk about the RFAs renewable fuels next subject. 54 00:03:38,882 --> 00:03:43,242 Speaker 1: The RFAs, AAG industry backed politicians in the US Congress 55 00:03:43,402 --> 00:03:46,002 Speaker 1: fought to get rid of the requirement to account for 56 00:03:46,162 --> 00:03:47,122 Speaker 1: land use change. 57 00:03:47,722 --> 00:03:52,122 Speaker 2: And the cheapest oil that was used for your cakes 58 00:03:52,122 --> 00:03:56,282 Speaker 2: and for your cookies, you know, basically stopped becoming corn 59 00:03:56,322 --> 00:04:00,082 Speaker 2: oil because corn oil prices went up, because CON's demand 60 00:04:00,202 --> 00:04:02,602 Speaker 2: went up, and so well, what's going to be the 61 00:04:02,682 --> 00:04:06,722 Speaker 2: cheapest oil became the question, and lo and behold that answer. 62 00:04:07,042 --> 00:04:12,002 Speaker 2: Instead of corn oil became displaced into palm oil. And 63 00:04:12,282 --> 00:04:16,842 Speaker 2: palm oil is one of the most horrifically like ecologically 64 00:04:16,962 --> 00:04:21,601 Speaker 2: damaging things that happened was Indonesian rainforests were raised to 65 00:04:21,682 --> 00:04:24,882 Speaker 2: the ground between two thousand and seven. In the next 66 00:04:24,882 --> 00:04:29,562 Speaker 2: fifteen years in the forests of Sumatra Bonio, particularly Boneo, 67 00:04:30,002 --> 00:04:32,722 Speaker 2: and those rainforests were raised to the ground and replaced 68 00:04:32,842 --> 00:04:39,442 Speaker 2: with palm oil plantations. 69 00:04:40,322 --> 00:04:43,642 Speaker 1: So the cornatinal boom in the US, driven by policies 70 00:04:43,682 --> 00:04:48,361 Speaker 1: that industrial agg business lobbied for all under a giant 71 00:04:48,442 --> 00:04:53,042 Speaker 1: green renewable fuels banner, increased the cost of food and 72 00:04:53,082 --> 00:04:57,322 Speaker 1: created one of the world's biggest ecological disasters and carbon 73 00:04:57,362 --> 00:05:00,562 Speaker 1: dioxide emitters in less than ten years. 74 00:05:01,122 --> 00:05:03,042 Speaker 2: It's just like one of the most sort of shocking, 75 00:05:04,322 --> 00:05:08,002 Speaker 2: shocking sort of features of what happens if you don't 76 00:05:08,122 --> 00:05:11,802 Speaker 2: take into account that displaced land effect. 77 00:05:12,482 --> 00:05:17,402 Speaker 1: Now agg businessmen are pushing for similar policies in Brazil. 78 00:05:17,722 --> 00:05:21,722 Speaker 4: That's right, emmy. When the government started to regulate where sugar, cane, 79 00:05:21,762 --> 00:05:26,642 Speaker 4: forth andol could be grown, corn ethanol entrepreneurs saw an opportunity. 80 00:05:27,242 --> 00:05:31,122 Speaker 4: Here's Lucas Ferranci, the biologist at the National Institute for 81 00:05:31,202 --> 00:05:34,202 Speaker 4: Amazonian Research that we heard from less. 82 00:05:34,002 --> 00:05:39,481 Speaker 5: Time I think pretty seizing brachiv it is. 83 00:05:41,162 --> 00:05:43,962 Speaker 3: People have to remember that one crop displaced is another 84 00:05:44,362 --> 00:05:47,082 Speaker 3: to an area that will be deforested. We have a 85 00:05:47,122 --> 00:05:50,442 Speaker 3: finite amount of land, and if we're introducing a new 86 00:05:50,482 --> 00:05:53,922 Speaker 3: crop and all of the cops we have are expanding rapidly, 87 00:05:54,362 --> 00:05:56,322 Speaker 3: where are the crops that made way for the sugar 88 00:05:56,402 --> 00:05:58,082 Speaker 3: cane plantations going. 89 00:05:58,682 --> 00:06:01,962 Speaker 1: Again, when policies or the market encouraged the expansion of 90 00:06:02,002 --> 00:06:05,802 Speaker 1: a particular crop, that means whatever else was happening on 91 00:06:05,842 --> 00:06:09,762 Speaker 1: that land that it expands to, whether it's undeveloped land 92 00:06:10,082 --> 00:06:13,042 Speaker 1: or planted with a def fron crap is impacted. 93 00:06:14,082 --> 00:06:16,682 Speaker 6: What does plantarstanage? Kind of just sugerical meceadus sponge? 94 00:06:17,282 --> 00:06:18,882 Speaker 7: Who was all the scutures spam? 95 00:06:19,442 --> 00:06:22,882 Speaker 3: When sugar cane plantations began to expand, some of the crops, 96 00:06:23,242 --> 00:06:27,762 Speaker 3: especially livestock farming, expanded significantly, particularly at the border between 97 00:06:27,802 --> 00:06:31,842 Speaker 3: the Serado and the Atlantic Forest, So there was massive deforestation. 98 00:06:32,562 --> 00:06:34,762 Speaker 3: Then back in two thousand and eight, if I'm not mistaken, 99 00:06:35,162 --> 00:06:38,762 Speaker 3: since sugar cane plantations were causing so much deforestation, a 100 00:06:38,882 --> 00:06:42,322 Speaker 3: decree was issued by President Lula prohibiting their expansion into 101 00:06:42,362 --> 00:06:45,842 Speaker 3: the Amazon and the pantanal. The intention was very good 102 00:06:45,922 --> 00:06:48,362 Speaker 3: because it prevented high demand for a new crop from 103 00:06:48,442 --> 00:06:51,842 Speaker 3: causing the degradation of that biome. However, the problem we 104 00:06:51,922 --> 00:06:54,242 Speaker 3: need to remember is that the demand was for biofuels, 105 00:06:54,362 --> 00:06:57,322 Speaker 3: not necessarily for sugar cane. We need a ban on 106 00:06:57,482 --> 00:07:00,202 Speaker 3: crops for biofuel production in these biomes, not just on 107 00:07:00,362 --> 00:07:01,442 Speaker 3: sugar cane crops. 108 00:07:07,442 --> 00:07:11,442 Speaker 1: So a well intended environmental regulation led not all more 109 00:07:11,482 --> 00:07:15,482 Speaker 1: deforestation to plant corn, but also to the embrace of 110 00:07:15,562 --> 00:07:19,242 Speaker 1: a new type of ethanol that everyone already knew was 111 00:07:19,322 --> 00:07:20,002 Speaker 1: less efficient. 112 00:07:22,802 --> 00:07:25,722 Speaker 8: You meanone is. 113 00:07:25,682 --> 00:07:29,642 Speaker 3: An advantageous for biofuel production. Sugar cane is much more efficient. 114 00:07:30,042 --> 00:07:32,722 Speaker 3: Corn is only being used because of the band of sugarcane. 115 00:07:33,762 --> 00:07:37,082 Speaker 4: That's right again, and why we've been focused on one 116 00:07:37,162 --> 00:07:40,362 Speaker 4: particular company in their approach to this season. It is 117 00:07:40,482 --> 00:07:44,242 Speaker 4: far from the only one. The problem is systemic. We've 118 00:07:44,282 --> 00:07:47,522 Speaker 4: seen corn ethanol spread not just from the US to Brazil, 119 00:07:47,762 --> 00:07:50,442 Speaker 4: but also from Brazil's middle est to other parts of 120 00:07:50,562 --> 00:07:53,802 Speaker 4: the country. More than half the new corn ethanol plants 121 00:07:53,842 --> 00:07:58,002 Speaker 4: being built in Brazil today are outside of Mattugrus. Green 122 00:07:58,122 --> 00:08:02,242 Speaker 4: colonialism isn't green at all. Of course, it's just regular 123 00:08:02,442 --> 00:08:06,842 Speaker 4: old colonialism with better marketing. But why has it been 124 00:08:06,922 --> 00:08:09,562 Speaker 4: so easy for fake green solutions to take root and 125 00:08:09,682 --> 00:08:13,562 Speaker 4: spread lip Sabrina with intercept to Brazil. 126 00:08:13,482 --> 00:08:18,002 Speaker 1: And I'm Ami Westervelt with drilled Great question, Phillippe, especially 127 00:08:18,122 --> 00:08:22,442 Speaker 1: since it's been far easier for these supposed solutions to 128 00:08:22,562 --> 00:08:27,602 Speaker 1: take hold than real environmental solutions, even when there are 129 00:08:27,682 --> 00:08:30,762 Speaker 1: so many examples of them causing new and sometimes worse 130 00:08:30,962 --> 00:08:32,802 Speaker 1: environmental problems. 131 00:08:32,881 --> 00:08:37,122 Speaker 4: Especially when those solutions like reducing consumption and energy use 132 00:08:37,682 --> 00:08:42,681 Speaker 4: run counter to capitalism's model of endless growth. Today, in 133 00:08:42,842 --> 00:08:46,681 Speaker 4: our final episode, the bigger systemic problem that Bruce and 134 00:08:46,801 --> 00:08:47,881 Speaker 4: the guys represent. 135 00:08:48,681 --> 00:08:53,642 Speaker 1: Welcome to the final episode of Carbon Cowboys, Cowboys after 136 00:08:53,681 --> 00:08:58,161 Speaker 1: the break the three c's capitalism, colonialism, and climate change. 137 00:09:11,242 --> 00:09:16,242 Speaker 1: Some political economists trace capitalism back to just the industrial Age, 138 00:09:16,482 --> 00:09:19,882 Speaker 1: but in certain countries the US and Brazil, for example, 139 00:09:20,281 --> 00:09:23,761 Speaker 1: you have to start earlier, and it starts with agriculture. 140 00:09:24,521 --> 00:09:29,281 Speaker 6: In feudal Europe, a critical mass point was hit in 141 00:09:29,442 --> 00:09:32,841 Speaker 6: the fourteenth century when the Little Ice Age arrived, and 142 00:09:32,962 --> 00:09:37,322 Speaker 6: from there a great wave of peasant revolts defeated Europe's 143 00:09:37,482 --> 00:09:39,041 Speaker 6: feudal ruling classes. 144 00:09:39,641 --> 00:09:43,202 Speaker 1: That's environmental historian Jason Moore. He co authored the book 145 00:09:43,281 --> 00:09:46,201 Speaker 1: A History of the World in Seven Cheap Things. It's 146 00:09:46,202 --> 00:09:50,441 Speaker 1: about the way that capitalism has devalued nature and humanity. 147 00:09:51,041 --> 00:09:55,002 Speaker 1: The Little Ice Age lasted from thirteen hundred to eighteen fifty. 148 00:09:55,602 --> 00:10:00,281 Speaker 1: Scientists call it little because it only impacted the northern hemisphere, 149 00:10:00,401 --> 00:10:03,761 Speaker 1: where temperatures dropped by a little more than half a degree. 150 00:10:04,442 --> 00:10:07,442 Speaker 1: Side note that half a degree brought forth a complete 151 00:10:07,561 --> 00:10:11,482 Speaker 1: societal revolution, So people who say a three or two 152 00:10:11,482 --> 00:10:14,162 Speaker 1: of warming is no big deal might want to study 153 00:10:14,202 --> 00:10:14,762 Speaker 1: this history. 154 00:10:15,561 --> 00:10:18,122 Speaker 6: And to make a very long and complex story short, 155 00:10:19,082 --> 00:10:23,242 Speaker 6: those ruling classes had to find a way to find 156 00:10:23,401 --> 00:10:25,721 Speaker 6: riches and power because they have been defeated in the 157 00:10:25,761 --> 00:10:27,202 Speaker 6: countryside of Western Europe. 158 00:10:27,921 --> 00:10:30,281 Speaker 1: To do that, they had to look elsewhere, to other 159 00:10:30,362 --> 00:10:32,681 Speaker 1: parts of the world where they might be able to 160 00:10:32,842 --> 00:10:38,002 Speaker 1: acquire land and with it cheap labor. The Portuguese Empire, 161 00:10:38,161 --> 00:10:41,962 Speaker 1: which eventually colonizes Brazil, is the first in the world 162 00:10:42,202 --> 00:10:46,202 Speaker 1: to colonize land outside its realm, beginning with the island 163 00:10:46,362 --> 00:10:51,081 Speaker 1: of Madera. The Spanish Empire reaches the Americas first and 164 00:10:51,242 --> 00:10:56,881 Speaker 1: immediately begins capturing and enslaving indigenous people. More says there's 165 00:10:56,921 --> 00:10:59,921 Speaker 1: a specific way they're able to justify this. 166 00:11:04,641 --> 00:11:08,162 Speaker 6: Nature enters into the vernacular at this point to mean 167 00:11:08,681 --> 00:11:12,002 Speaker 6: not human. And oh, by the way, most human beings 168 00:11:12,041 --> 00:11:14,322 Speaker 6: who work for a living are put into the realm 169 00:11:14,362 --> 00:11:18,641 Speaker 6: of nature. Women become the savages of Europe. As Sylvia 170 00:11:18,722 --> 00:11:24,521 Speaker 6: Federici reminds us, the language of savagery, wildness, barbarism comes 171 00:11:24,801 --> 00:11:28,921 Speaker 6: directly out of the English experience in Ireland, where the 172 00:11:29,041 --> 00:11:32,602 Speaker 6: English learned how to practice genocide, which they then extend 173 00:11:33,082 --> 00:11:34,482 Speaker 6: to the rest of the world. 174 00:11:34,602 --> 00:11:37,921 Speaker 9: The Spaniards go and reorganize colonial Peru and then the 175 00:11:38,002 --> 00:11:41,562 Speaker 9: process redefine indigenous peoples as naturalitis, as. 176 00:11:41,482 --> 00:11:42,161 Speaker 6: Part of nature. 177 00:11:42,681 --> 00:11:44,722 Speaker 1: So at this point that we get the whole man 178 00:11:44,881 --> 00:11:50,041 Speaker 1: versus nature frameworks that we still hear from industrial agriculture today. 179 00:11:50,641 --> 00:11:54,321 Speaker 1: This idea that it's man's job to dominate nature and 180 00:11:54,442 --> 00:11:55,281 Speaker 1: extract from it. 181 00:11:55,722 --> 00:11:59,602 Speaker 4: That message gets emphasized by religion. He is just one 182 00:11:59,681 --> 00:12:02,721 Speaker 4: example from the preacher at the Baptist church in Sohizo, 183 00:12:02,921 --> 00:12:05,321 Speaker 4: one of the towns near Lucas in mante Grosso. 184 00:12:10,242 --> 00:12:14,561 Speaker 1: Then God's and let us make humankind in our image. 185 00:12:15,362 --> 00:12:16,482 Speaker 1: They will be like us. 186 00:12:17,082 --> 00:12:21,561 Speaker 10: They will rule repeat after me, they will rule over 187 00:12:21,641 --> 00:12:24,122 Speaker 10: the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, 188 00:12:24,641 --> 00:12:28,281 Speaker 10: over the domestic animals, over the wild animals, over all 189 00:12:28,561 --> 00:12:31,441 Speaker 10: the creatures of the earth, and over the creatures that 190 00:12:31,641 --> 00:12:33,041 Speaker 10: crawl on the ground. 191 00:12:33,962 --> 00:12:38,841 Speaker 1: Right and Christianity intersects with not just colonialism and capitalism, 192 00:12:39,561 --> 00:12:43,482 Speaker 1: but with the evolution of private property and agriculture too, 193 00:12:44,002 --> 00:12:47,482 Speaker 1: helped along by the idea that Christians are more civilized 194 00:12:47,602 --> 00:12:50,042 Speaker 1: and evolved than indigenous peoples. 195 00:12:50,801 --> 00:12:55,401 Speaker 4: Right, the doctrine of Discovery gives Christians the right to 196 00:12:55,521 --> 00:12:58,602 Speaker 4: take any land occupied by known Christians. 197 00:12:58,722 --> 00:13:02,962 Speaker 1: And the philosophical musings of John Locke suggest that land 198 00:13:03,122 --> 00:13:07,082 Speaker 1: should be owned by those who can improve it by 199 00:13:07,161 --> 00:13:10,922 Speaker 1: doing things like cutting down trees, planting crops, raising animals, 200 00:13:11,122 --> 00:13:15,281 Speaker 1: and building homes. This further justifies taking land from indigenous 201 00:13:15,322 --> 00:13:18,681 Speaker 1: people because they quote unquote aren't using it, and from 202 00:13:18,722 --> 00:13:21,761 Speaker 1: there it's just endless expansion. But at a certain point, 203 00:13:21,842 --> 00:13:28,201 Speaker 1: colonists they run on a land. That happens in the 204 00:13:28,362 --> 00:13:31,082 Speaker 1: US in the nineteen thirties between World. 205 00:13:30,921 --> 00:13:32,122 Speaker 9: War One and World War Two, and that was the 206 00:13:32,202 --> 00:13:33,722 Speaker 9: moment when there was no more. 207 00:13:33,722 --> 00:13:34,842 Speaker 7: Land to sell. 208 00:13:35,281 --> 00:13:38,761 Speaker 1: David Correa is a historical geographer at the University of 209 00:13:38,881 --> 00:13:42,722 Speaker 1: New Mexico. He says, in this moment, just before World 210 00:13:42,761 --> 00:13:46,841 Speaker 1: War Two, the US makes a turn toward industrialization because 211 00:13:46,921 --> 00:13:49,641 Speaker 1: that's the only way to keep expanding once the physical 212 00:13:49,722 --> 00:13:52,761 Speaker 1: option of more land is no longer available. 213 00:13:53,602 --> 00:13:57,961 Speaker 9: So this is the age of new immigration restrictions, the 214 00:13:58,002 --> 00:14:02,402 Speaker 9: industrialization of agriculture. It's the moment that like hybrid corn 215 00:14:02,561 --> 00:14:07,122 Speaker 9: is is invented, which dramatically increases heels. 216 00:14:07,842 --> 00:14:11,641 Speaker 1: Aha, there it is corn. So the very first steps 217 00:14:11,722 --> 00:14:15,961 Speaker 1: the US takes in the direction of industrialized agriculture is 218 00:14:16,161 --> 00:14:17,281 Speaker 1: in the cornfield. 219 00:14:17,881 --> 00:14:20,681 Speaker 9: It's also like we can improve plants, we can improve people, right, 220 00:14:20,802 --> 00:14:23,162 Speaker 9: so that this is the rise of eugenics. And their 221 00:14:23,242 --> 00:14:29,602 Speaker 9: solution was convert the Sellar strategy of constant expansion into 222 00:14:30,602 --> 00:14:33,802 Speaker 9: a different the same strategy, but like, but the expansion 223 00:14:33,802 --> 00:14:37,042 Speaker 9: will happen like at a like a genetic level, so 224 00:14:37,162 --> 00:14:41,081 Speaker 9: like we'll expand the genetic capacity of plants and the 225 00:14:41,202 --> 00:14:45,442 Speaker 9: genetic capacity of people. So it's the same thing, an expansion. 226 00:14:45,681 --> 00:14:47,882 Speaker 9: This is where the field of genetics is born. It 227 00:14:47,962 --> 00:14:52,522 Speaker 9: actually starts in a cornfield where they're working on corn, 228 00:14:53,122 --> 00:14:55,602 Speaker 9: so it's not an accident that it's a native crop. 229 00:14:56,681 --> 00:14:58,081 Speaker 9: They focus all their energy on. 230 00:14:58,802 --> 00:15:02,601 Speaker 1: First, you take indigenous land to improve it. Then you 231 00:15:02,722 --> 00:15:06,282 Speaker 1: take an indigenous crop corn which had been grown by 232 00:15:06,362 --> 00:15:08,802 Speaker 1: native people in what is now the United States for 233 00:15:09,002 --> 00:15:14,601 Speaker 1: five thousand years before colonizers arrived, and modernize it. 234 00:15:17,602 --> 00:15:20,562 Speaker 4: And you know what, Emmy, this sounds very familiar to us. 235 00:15:21,202 --> 00:15:24,962 Speaker 4: In Brazil, agriculture has always been tied to two words, 236 00:15:25,482 --> 00:15:33,482 Speaker 4: colonialism and exports. Another long and complicated story, but even 237 00:15:33,561 --> 00:15:37,162 Speaker 4: since the Portuguese colonized the country, our economic cycles have 238 00:15:37,282 --> 00:15:41,242 Speaker 4: been built around huge landholdings and monoculture crops looking to 239 00:15:41,362 --> 00:15:46,762 Speaker 4: the international markets. The idea of agricultural modernization, though, the 240 00:15:46,882 --> 00:15:50,402 Speaker 4: one that fascinates people like Bruce and his business partners, 241 00:15:50,882 --> 00:15:53,602 Speaker 4: is much more recent. He took off in the late 242 00:15:53,802 --> 00:15:58,362 Speaker 4: nineteen sixties, inspired, believe it or not, by the US model. 243 00:15:59,122 --> 00:16:04,122 Speaker 4: That's when the machines arrived, along with pesticides, genetically modified seeds, 244 00:16:04,162 --> 00:16:05,602 Speaker 4: and everything that came with them. 245 00:16:05,922 --> 00:16:09,441 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So, when Bruce talks about what attracted him 246 00:16:09,482 --> 00:16:12,681 Speaker 1: to Brazil, he always talked about how open the country 247 00:16:12,842 --> 00:16:15,122 Speaker 1: is to US technology. 248 00:16:15,922 --> 00:16:19,602 Speaker 4: Green colonialism is like the next phase of that expansion. 249 00:16:20,082 --> 00:16:20,922 Speaker 2: It's a country that. 250 00:16:21,002 --> 00:16:24,122 Speaker 5: Most readily accepts US technology outside. 251 00:16:23,681 --> 00:16:26,082 Speaker 7: Of the US, Yeah, just through. 252 00:16:27,962 --> 00:16:32,081 Speaker 3: It was the ecological destruction caused by colonialism that centuries ago, 253 00:16:32,282 --> 00:16:35,802 Speaker 3: beginning in the seventeenth century, gave rise to a colonial 254 00:16:35,882 --> 00:16:38,122 Speaker 3: concern for environmental preservations. 255 00:16:38,962 --> 00:16:42,522 Speaker 4: Breno Bringo is a political science and sociology professor at 256 00:16:42,522 --> 00:16:45,962 Speaker 4: the Institute of Social and Political Studies at the State 257 00:16:46,162 --> 00:16:49,602 Speaker 4: University of Huge General and an editor of the book 258 00:16:49,722 --> 00:16:55,562 Speaker 4: Green Colonialism, Volume one, Geo Politics and Social Ecological Transitions. 259 00:16:56,282 --> 00:16:59,162 Speaker 4: He doesn't argue with the idea that the carbonization and 260 00:16:59,362 --> 00:17:03,522 Speaker 4: energy transition are critical to addressing the climate crisis, but 261 00:17:03,681 --> 00:17:07,922 Speaker 4: he says green colonialism isn't doing any of that as 262 00:17:08,002 --> 00:17:09,522 Speaker 4: another fact of the colonialism. 263 00:17:10,322 --> 00:17:14,082 Speaker 3: For distinic of green colonialism is essentially reproducing the dynamics 264 00:17:14,122 --> 00:17:18,121 Speaker 3: of historical colonialism, seeking new social legismacy and the idea 265 00:17:18,242 --> 00:17:21,762 Speaker 3: of decobonization, because who would be against decarbonization? 266 00:17:22,442 --> 00:17:24,082 Speaker 4: That's the question, right. 267 00:17:24,202 --> 00:17:28,081 Speaker 1: It's a genius way to justify a continued expansion but 268 00:17:28,402 --> 00:17:30,882 Speaker 1: market it as something else, entirely. 269 00:17:30,841 --> 00:17:34,962 Speaker 4: Exactly bringing your points out that when it just continues 270 00:17:35,002 --> 00:17:39,802 Speaker 4: to commodify nature, this new green colonialism narrative is exactly 271 00:17:39,922 --> 00:17:43,962 Speaker 4: the same as regular old colonialism condex is as. 272 00:17:44,682 --> 00:17:49,282 Speaker 3: When decobonization primarily translates into corbon offset markets, investment in 273 00:17:49,361 --> 00:17:53,561 Speaker 3: technologies that perpetuate in policies, or increased production of green 274 00:17:53,682 --> 00:17:57,881 Speaker 3: raw materials without social justice and without environmental justice, it 275 00:17:57,962 --> 00:18:01,762 Speaker 3: becomes a channel for accumulation and the reproduction of green colonialism. 276 00:18:03,002 --> 00:18:08,162 Speaker 1: Sylvia Seki, an economist, geographer, and professor at University of Iowa, 277 00:18:08,482 --> 00:18:13,282 Speaker 1: said something similar about how industrial AGGERG culture approaches sustainability 278 00:18:13,642 --> 00:18:14,282 Speaker 1: in the US. 279 00:18:15,002 --> 00:18:17,561 Speaker 8: The goal is just to farm the government. 280 00:18:17,882 --> 00:18:20,641 Speaker 5: This is what these people excel at, really farming the 281 00:18:20,722 --> 00:18:23,002 Speaker 5: government and just kind of like coming up with the 282 00:18:23,162 --> 00:18:23,962 Speaker 5: narrative that. 283 00:18:24,081 --> 00:18:29,242 Speaker 11: Will carry the day, right and then without any compunction, 284 00:18:29,962 --> 00:18:33,921 Speaker 11: just switching to another narrative when the next narrative wins 285 00:18:33,962 --> 00:18:34,282 Speaker 11: the day. 286 00:18:35,121 --> 00:18:38,002 Speaker 1: And here we're going to come back to Bruce Rastetter. 287 00:18:39,002 --> 00:18:45,202 Speaker 5: Rasstetter has clearly been instrumental in promoting and supporting and 288 00:18:45,882 --> 00:18:48,881 Speaker 5: navigating and shaping the reinvention of. 289 00:18:48,922 --> 00:18:51,762 Speaker 12: Ethanol and carbon capturing and storage. 290 00:18:51,841 --> 00:18:56,561 Speaker 5: All these things are integral to this imagining of ethanol 291 00:18:56,722 --> 00:18:59,282 Speaker 5: as a long term. 292 00:18:59,522 --> 00:19:04,242 Speaker 12: Renewable, sustainable fuel. It's a putting lipstick on a. 293 00:19:04,282 --> 00:19:12,962 Speaker 4: Pick looking and in fact fs fuel in sustainability. Bruce 294 00:19:13,081 --> 00:19:17,002 Speaker 4: Raster's Brazilian company has been doing the same thing. In 295 00:19:17,081 --> 00:19:19,882 Speaker 4: addition to helping to start both for the corn ethanol 296 00:19:19,962 --> 00:19:23,002 Speaker 4: and carbon capture industries in Brazil and pushing for the 297 00:19:23,121 --> 00:19:26,361 Speaker 4: policies that will help them grow, FS has been a 298 00:19:26,482 --> 00:19:29,082 Speaker 4: pioneer in what are called green bones. 299 00:19:29,841 --> 00:19:34,321 Speaker 1: Yes, green bonds really exploded when the Paris Agreement was 300 00:19:34,442 --> 00:19:38,482 Speaker 1: signed in twenty fifteen. That agreement often gets pointed to 301 00:19:38,601 --> 00:19:41,242 Speaker 1: as this great step forward for climate, and in some 302 00:19:41,361 --> 00:19:45,202 Speaker 1: ways it was, but it also leaned really hard on 303 00:19:45,321 --> 00:19:49,081 Speaker 1: the idea of involving the private sector more in solving climate, 304 00:19:49,722 --> 00:19:54,881 Speaker 1: and especially on the idea that financializing environmental gains was 305 00:19:54,922 --> 00:19:58,081 Speaker 1: going to be this huge lever of progress. We just 306 00:19:58,282 --> 00:20:02,401 Speaker 1: needed to reform the carbon offsets and credit markets to 307 00:20:02,522 --> 00:20:06,361 Speaker 1: make sure those gains were real. On the sidelines of Paris, 308 00:20:06,561 --> 00:20:10,601 Speaker 1: Global investors even signed their own agreement called the Paris 309 00:20:10,682 --> 00:20:14,121 Speaker 1: Green Bond Statement. I don't know about U Flepe, but 310 00:20:14,361 --> 00:20:17,882 Speaker 1: I am. I'm not a big finance bro, No me neither. 311 00:20:18,361 --> 00:20:21,722 Speaker 4: So we got up Vanessa Pajea, being at the Federal 312 00:20:21,841 --> 00:20:25,121 Speaker 4: University of San Carlos, she wrote the whole paper on 313 00:20:25,282 --> 00:20:28,482 Speaker 4: green bones in Brazoo, and she walked us through it. 314 00:20:31,442 --> 00:20:36,841 Speaker 12: MAC want to. 315 00:20:36,882 --> 00:20:40,561 Speaker 13: See a corporation, a government, or a branch of the 316 00:20:40,642 --> 00:20:43,762 Speaker 13: government like a municipality or an agency. For example, the 317 00:20:43,841 --> 00:20:47,762 Speaker 13: bndes needs money to carry out a certain activity, so 318 00:20:47,882 --> 00:20:51,202 Speaker 13: it goes out to raise funds directly from investors. So 319 00:20:51,282 --> 00:20:54,522 Speaker 13: it issues this document, this debt security, and then it's 320 00:20:54,561 --> 00:20:56,002 Speaker 13: presented to these investors. 321 00:20:56,321 --> 00:20:57,361 Speaker 7: So but why is it green? 322 00:20:57,601 --> 00:20:57,721 Speaker 5: Right? 323 00:20:58,202 --> 00:21:01,962 Speaker 13: It's green because it goes through certain stages to establish credibility. 324 00:21:02,482 --> 00:21:05,641 Speaker 13: A green bond has to have its funds allocated exclusively 325 00:21:05,802 --> 00:21:09,242 Speaker 13: to projects, activities, or even assets like a power plant 326 00:21:09,282 --> 00:21:12,442 Speaker 13: for example, that will very ecological benefits. 327 00:21:12,522 --> 00:21:16,042 Speaker 7: Right, So yeah, yeah, it has to be environmentally sustainable. 328 00:21:17,002 --> 00:21:21,161 Speaker 1: Essa says. Part of Brazil's openness to US technology is 329 00:21:21,242 --> 00:21:26,121 Speaker 1: that technological approaches are viewed by financial markets as things 330 00:21:26,242 --> 00:21:30,762 Speaker 1: that stabilize agriculture and make it a good investment. There 331 00:21:30,802 --> 00:21:32,962 Speaker 1: are a lot of variables in agriculture, right There are 332 00:21:33,242 --> 00:21:38,002 Speaker 1: funguses and bugs and extreme weather. Chemicals and machines are 333 00:21:38,042 --> 00:21:42,081 Speaker 1: seen as a way to control those variables. Today's version 334 00:21:42,242 --> 00:21:43,762 Speaker 1: of the man versus nature thing. 335 00:21:44,402 --> 00:21:47,641 Speaker 4: So the finance market in general created all these tools 336 00:21:47,722 --> 00:21:52,561 Speaker 4: to support a certain type of modernized agriculture. That expansion 337 00:21:52,682 --> 00:21:56,561 Speaker 4: that Koheia talking about, and the green bone markets provided 338 00:21:56,642 --> 00:21:58,602 Speaker 4: the financing for green colonialism. 339 00:21:59,962 --> 00:22:00,401 Speaker 7: We see this. 340 00:22:00,482 --> 00:22:03,122 Speaker 13: Movement beginning in the early two thousands where we see 341 00:22:03,162 --> 00:22:06,441 Speaker 13: how agreements are starting to emerge that aim to channel 342 00:22:06,561 --> 00:22:10,962 Speaker 13: private capital into initiatives that can support sustainable development project. 343 00:22:11,321 --> 00:22:14,522 Speaker 4: Right to issue a green bond, you have to go 344 00:22:14,722 --> 00:22:18,482 Speaker 4: through four procedures. First, you write up a framework. 345 00:22:21,522 --> 00:22:24,722 Speaker 13: The Brazilian government for example, has a framework. Yeah, and 346 00:22:24,841 --> 00:22:28,002 Speaker 13: then in that framework they need to specify where they'll 347 00:22:28,042 --> 00:22:30,042 Speaker 13: allocate the funds they'll receive and. 348 00:22:30,162 --> 00:22:32,002 Speaker 7: It has to be for eligible projects. 349 00:22:32,442 --> 00:22:36,522 Speaker 1: Then you have to describe the sustainability of the activities 350 00:22:36,642 --> 00:22:38,242 Speaker 1: you'll use the green bond for. 351 00:22:41,561 --> 00:22:43,922 Speaker 13: There's a third step that is how it will be 352 00:22:44,042 --> 00:22:47,282 Speaker 13: monitored over time, right during the period it's receiving these 353 00:22:47,361 --> 00:22:51,002 Speaker 13: green bond proceeds, this green bond money, this investment. 354 00:22:51,002 --> 00:22:55,321 Speaker 4: But again monitored by the company which also reports on their. 355 00:22:55,282 --> 00:22:58,842 Speaker 7: Progress e the points and think part. 356 00:23:00,242 --> 00:23:02,762 Speaker 13: And then there's a fourth step, which is how they're 357 00:23:02,802 --> 00:23:06,202 Speaker 13: going to you know, just close this data. So it's 358 00:23:06,482 --> 00:23:09,442 Speaker 13: it's basically declaratory, right like I'm going to do this, 359 00:23:09,722 --> 00:23:11,802 Speaker 13: then I'm going to do that I'm going to monitor 360 00:23:11,841 --> 00:23:13,682 Speaker 13: it this way, and I'm going to report it that way. 361 00:23:14,922 --> 00:23:17,042 Speaker 1: When they first came about in two thousand and seven 362 00:23:17,282 --> 00:23:20,242 Speaker 1: and for around the first decade of their existence, green 363 00:23:20,321 --> 00:23:24,081 Speaker 1: bonds were mostly issued by international development banks like the 364 00:23:24,162 --> 00:23:28,002 Speaker 1: World Bank, But beginning in twenty sixteen, on the heels 365 00:23:28,121 --> 00:23:32,121 Speaker 1: of the Paris Climate Accord, more corporations and governments started 366 00:23:32,121 --> 00:23:35,082 Speaker 1: to get in on the action and the market exploded. 367 00:23:35,601 --> 00:23:38,402 Speaker 1: By twenty twenty, the green bond market was approaching three 368 00:23:38,482 --> 00:23:42,162 Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars, and just two years later, by twenty 369 00:23:42,242 --> 00:23:47,522 Speaker 1: twenty two, it had ballooned to two trillion dollars. Various 370 00:23:47,561 --> 00:23:51,642 Speaker 1: methods have been developed to verify the environmental gains funded 371 00:23:51,682 --> 00:23:54,722 Speaker 1: by green bonds, and our friends at FS have embraced 372 00:23:54,722 --> 00:23:58,282 Speaker 1: a lot of them, but Vanessa says it's more about 373 00:23:58,482 --> 00:24:03,922 Speaker 1: paperwork and self reporting than actually verifying environmental. 374 00:24:03,402 --> 00:24:09,842 Speaker 12: Benefits picon and as A as a davenas. 375 00:24:11,762 --> 00:24:13,682 Speaker 13: The idea is that the government doesn't need to be 376 00:24:13,802 --> 00:24:17,282 Speaker 13: involved in this regulation or verification process. It will self 377 00:24:17,402 --> 00:24:21,722 Speaker 13: regulate by creating well dividing the stakeholders into different groups. 378 00:24:21,841 --> 00:24:25,762 Speaker 13: Right the term they use is stakeholders, and they'll monitor 379 00:24:25,802 --> 00:24:28,561 Speaker 13: each other in some way. So you have the issuer there, 380 00:24:28,722 --> 00:24:31,522 Speaker 13: they're the first stakeholder. Then you have a second party, 381 00:24:31,601 --> 00:24:35,841 Speaker 13: which are SPO's second Party Opinions, which are companies that 382 00:24:35,922 --> 00:24:39,962 Speaker 13: provide consulting in the environmental engineering and management fields and 383 00:24:40,081 --> 00:24:42,962 Speaker 13: they're the ones who will actually evaluate a green bond. 384 00:24:43,402 --> 00:24:46,042 Speaker 13: And then you have third parties that are institutions for 385 00:24:46,162 --> 00:24:49,841 Speaker 13: example like the CBI, the Climate Bonds Initiative, which are 386 00:24:50,361 --> 00:24:54,401 Speaker 13: will generally nonprofit associations or organizations in the case of 387 00:24:54,482 --> 00:24:59,242 Speaker 13: the CBI, where they create standards, so they establish benchmarks for. 388 00:24:59,321 --> 00:25:01,641 Speaker 7: What is considered a sustainable activity. 389 00:25:01,882 --> 00:25:07,161 Speaker 4: Right, so the verifications are really more about financial compliance 390 00:25:07,402 --> 00:25:10,121 Speaker 4: than anything that's happening on the ground or in the 391 00:25:10,202 --> 00:25:14,682 Speaker 4: atmosphere in Brazil. That means that things like land grabbing 392 00:25:14,922 --> 00:25:20,722 Speaker 4: and excessive agrichemico used are not factored into the equation. Now, 393 00:25:21,121 --> 00:25:24,802 Speaker 4: various actors in Brazil's government with close ties to agribusiness 394 00:25:24,962 --> 00:25:28,242 Speaker 4: are trying to present the majority of agricultural production in 395 00:25:28,321 --> 00:25:29,162 Speaker 4: Brazil as. 396 00:25:29,361 --> 00:25:37,002 Speaker 11: Green sofa fraud and your. 397 00:25:36,922 --> 00:25:40,121 Speaker 13: Problem main So a lot of things are going to 398 00:25:40,162 --> 00:25:43,482 Speaker 13: get left out right, and the monitoring itself, well, since 399 00:25:43,522 --> 00:25:46,882 Speaker 13: it's self regulating, it ends up being very declarative. So yeah, 400 00:25:46,882 --> 00:25:49,601 Speaker 13: there won't be that level of care, Like no one 401 00:25:49,642 --> 00:25:51,682 Speaker 13: will go there for a field visit for a while, 402 00:25:51,882 --> 00:25:54,802 Speaker 13: you know, to actually talk to people to analyze what 403 00:25:54,922 --> 00:25:58,561 Speaker 13: that project is generating locally. Right, if we're talking about 404 00:25:58,601 --> 00:26:02,242 Speaker 13: soybeans and corn, it's not just what the processing plant, 405 00:26:02,321 --> 00:26:03,442 Speaker 13: for example, is producing. 406 00:26:03,802 --> 00:26:05,081 Speaker 7: It has several suppliers. 407 00:26:05,482 --> 00:26:07,641 Speaker 13: How do you keep track of what each of these 408 00:26:07,722 --> 00:26:12,482 Speaker 13: grain suppliers is doing in terms of land use and deforestation. 409 00:26:13,162 --> 00:26:18,002 Speaker 1: In Brazil, soybean giant Amaji and cattle conglomerate JBS, for example, 410 00:26:18,522 --> 00:26:20,242 Speaker 1: have topped the green bond market. 411 00:26:21,002 --> 00:26:24,762 Speaker 4: Which brings us to the latest news from FS. In 412 00:26:24,882 --> 00:26:27,682 Speaker 4: May twenty twenty six, as we were putting the finishing 413 00:26:27,762 --> 00:26:31,721 Speaker 4: touches on this podcast, Amaji, the soybean company owned by 414 00:26:31,802 --> 00:26:36,081 Speaker 4: former Minister of Agriculture and Livestock bla Umaji in his family, 415 00:26:36,802 --> 00:26:41,561 Speaker 4: purchased a forty percent stake in FS. Bruce Haste retains 416 00:26:41,601 --> 00:26:45,482 Speaker 4: the controlling stake with forty three percent, and the remaining 417 00:26:45,642 --> 00:26:50,802 Speaker 4: seventeen percent of the companies divided amongst Rasters' Brazilian business partners. 418 00:26:51,762 --> 00:26:54,642 Speaker 4: You might remember bla Umaji was the politician who gave 419 00:26:54,682 --> 00:26:58,082 Speaker 4: a speech at the opening of fs's first corn as 420 00:26:58,081 --> 00:27:01,681 Speaker 4: an outplant in Mato Grosso. The deal was approved by 421 00:27:01,722 --> 00:27:05,962 Speaker 4: the government. Amaji took on more than seven hundred million 422 00:27:06,042 --> 00:27:10,482 Speaker 4: dollars in debt to finance the acquisition, prompting financial analysts 423 00:27:10,561 --> 00:27:15,042 Speaker 4: to each warnings about the company being overleveraged. But according 424 00:27:15,081 --> 00:27:19,242 Speaker 4: to Vanessa, these figures are into actually that high given 425 00:27:19,282 --> 00:27:21,922 Speaker 4: the amount of capital they are able to raise through 426 00:27:22,002 --> 00:27:26,922 Speaker 4: green bones. FS itself had already raised seven hundred million 427 00:27:27,002 --> 00:27:31,321 Speaker 4: dollars through these bones, and in twenty twenty one, Imagi 428 00:27:31,522 --> 00:27:35,601 Speaker 4: raised seven hundred fifty million dollars in green bones to 429 00:27:35,802 --> 00:27:40,762 Speaker 4: finance a small hydroelectric plant near indigenous lens that was 430 00:27:41,002 --> 00:27:42,081 Speaker 4: far from sustainable. 431 00:27:42,601 --> 00:27:46,962 Speaker 11: Eachinanukasda imagin Chito virgin for fIF. 432 00:27:47,522 --> 00:27:50,522 Speaker 13: They raised seven hundred and fifty million from foreign investors 433 00:27:50,762 --> 00:27:53,522 Speaker 13: very quickly. It was more than they expected, and it 434 00:27:53,642 --> 00:27:56,562 Speaker 13: was for a series of projects. One of the projects 435 00:27:56,682 --> 00:27:59,162 Speaker 13: was the construction of a power plant. If you look 436 00:27:59,202 --> 00:28:01,602 Speaker 13: at the plant and the technology, you might say, look 437 00:28:01,722 --> 00:28:04,642 Speaker 13: clean energy, it's green and sustainable. But if you put 438 00:28:04,682 --> 00:28:07,762 Speaker 13: it in context in a region that has so many 439 00:28:07,882 --> 00:28:10,402 Speaker 13: power plants in the same watershed. 440 00:28:10,361 --> 00:28:12,842 Speaker 7: Did you see it's not really that sustainable anymore. 441 00:28:13,282 --> 00:28:17,002 Speaker 13: That's obviously going to create problems for the river's own wildlife, 442 00:28:17,162 --> 00:28:20,482 Speaker 13: for the communities living in the surrounding area. That doesn't 443 00:28:20,522 --> 00:28:23,442 Speaker 13: factor into the analysis of a green bond, right, it 444 00:28:23,561 --> 00:28:28,602 Speaker 13: doesn't belong there, you know, Felipe. 445 00:28:28,722 --> 00:28:31,161 Speaker 1: Something that I think is really important for listeners to 446 00:28:31,282 --> 00:28:34,562 Speaker 1: understand here too, is that this whole infinite growth thing, 447 00:28:35,321 --> 00:28:38,562 Speaker 1: it continues no matter who is running the government. Like 448 00:28:38,762 --> 00:28:41,721 Speaker 1: in the US it was Biden that increased the incentives 449 00:28:41,802 --> 00:28:45,722 Speaker 1: for carbon capture and biofuels, and now in Brazil it's 450 00:28:45,842 --> 00:28:48,202 Speaker 1: Lula who's supporting the korn ethanol boom. 451 00:28:48,802 --> 00:28:52,042 Speaker 4: And it reminds me of something Corey Melby, the American 452 00:28:52,082 --> 00:28:56,482 Speaker 4: agriculture consultant in Brazil, set about agribusinessmen in both the 453 00:28:56,722 --> 00:29:01,481 Speaker 4: US and Brazil that they really have no ideology beyond business. 454 00:29:03,042 --> 00:29:09,802 Speaker 14: When you think of how conservatives of the past all constitution, land. 455 00:29:09,562 --> 00:29:12,562 Speaker 8: Branch, property, right, we were sack, we're sank. 456 00:29:12,762 --> 00:29:15,722 Speaker 14: But as soon as that, oh, it goes against their pipeline, 457 00:29:15,922 --> 00:29:18,442 Speaker 14: they are not conservatives anymore either. 458 00:29:18,962 --> 00:29:23,882 Speaker 8: Their business period yea, and I. 459 00:29:24,242 --> 00:29:26,522 Speaker 14: Came in Brazil, you got some of the biggest farmers 460 00:29:26,562 --> 00:29:29,242 Speaker 14: in Martro Grosso that are pro Lula at the moment. 461 00:29:29,682 --> 00:29:32,922 Speaker 8: Who would think that, you know, he's pro little guy, 462 00:29:33,082 --> 00:29:34,402 Speaker 8: pro pro small farmer. 463 00:29:35,042 --> 00:29:37,362 Speaker 14: And you've got the Maggies and the Schaffers of the 464 00:29:37,402 --> 00:29:42,322 Speaker 14: world all lighting up behind Lula for another term and 465 00:29:42,642 --> 00:29:45,722 Speaker 14: bringing Supreme Court justices out the middle of Marcro Grosso 466 00:29:45,762 --> 00:29:47,402 Speaker 14: and giving him a talon and a little village in 467 00:29:47,482 --> 00:29:47,842 Speaker 14: their name. 468 00:29:48,322 --> 00:29:52,042 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. I've also been thinking about something Tim Sahai 469 00:29:52,202 --> 00:29:54,762 Speaker 1: said in our interview. I was asking him about why 470 00:29:54,842 --> 00:29:57,402 Speaker 1: anyone would support corn ethanol in Brazil, and it's so 471 00:29:57,562 --> 00:30:01,002 Speaker 1: clearly not even the best crop for ethanol. 472 00:30:01,122 --> 00:30:05,962 Speaker 2: From a neutral scientific perspective. Sugarcane ethanol has lower carbon intensity, 473 00:30:06,162 --> 00:30:08,922 Speaker 2: it's it's a cleaner. Just use that, don't use gone. 474 00:30:09,482 --> 00:30:13,441 Speaker 1: I asked Sylvia Saki about whether carbon capture or BAX 475 00:30:13,802 --> 00:30:17,242 Speaker 1: that's bio energy with carbon capture like what FS is 476 00:30:17,322 --> 00:30:20,962 Speaker 1: doing in Brazil, makes any of this any better. 477 00:30:21,682 --> 00:30:23,282 Speaker 12: So here's where I think. 478 00:30:23,562 --> 00:30:28,882 Speaker 5: I think that the problem is that very often people 479 00:30:29,042 --> 00:30:32,962 Speaker 5: don't take a system's perspective and they. 480 00:30:32,962 --> 00:30:39,242 Speaker 15: Don't consider opportunity costs right. So to me, BECX is 481 00:30:39,802 --> 00:30:47,242 Speaker 15: the latest flavor of tetsis right, which is sprinkled with 482 00:30:47,442 --> 00:30:53,842 Speaker 15: some nice glitterally sustainability and renewable kind of sugar based. 483 00:30:53,922 --> 00:30:55,161 Speaker 7: Stars or whatever. 484 00:30:55,922 --> 00:31:01,882 Speaker 12: We're talking about creating massive infrastructure to support a fossil 485 00:31:02,002 --> 00:31:07,161 Speaker 12: fuel dependent type of markets, right, So it's not scalable. 486 00:31:07,562 --> 00:31:12,842 Speaker 12: It really is complementary, not substitute with fossil fuels in 487 00:31:13,522 --> 00:31:19,042 Speaker 12: the internal combustion engine technology. It's extremely expensive. 488 00:31:19,002 --> 00:31:21,882 Speaker 1: And like, I get why corn growers would be super 489 00:31:21,962 --> 00:31:24,722 Speaker 1: into all of it because it just keeps their business going. 490 00:31:25,322 --> 00:31:28,002 Speaker 1: But why do the people who keep saying that the 491 00:31:28,082 --> 00:31:30,962 Speaker 1: climate crisis is urgent and they want to act on it, 492 00:31:31,362 --> 00:31:34,962 Speaker 1: people like fighting and Lulah for example, why do they 493 00:31:35,082 --> 00:31:37,482 Speaker 1: keep going along with it? And why is there such 494 00:31:37,482 --> 00:31:42,242 Speaker 1: an acceptance even from scientists and advocates that will never 495 00:31:42,402 --> 00:31:46,682 Speaker 1: be able to do the quote unquote neutral scientific thing. 496 00:31:47,802 --> 00:31:51,402 Speaker 4: Probably because it would be the final limit to capitalism's 497 00:31:51,562 --> 00:31:53,442 Speaker 4: endless accumulation, right. 498 00:31:53,362 --> 00:31:56,802 Speaker 1: Because it's a planetary limit, really, And that's an idea 499 00:31:57,002 --> 00:32:00,442 Speaker 1: industry and the governments it supports have been fighting for 500 00:32:00,602 --> 00:32:01,642 Speaker 1: a really long time. 501 00:32:02,362 --> 00:32:05,402 Speaker 4: Right, But the people who want to make real progress 502 00:32:05,482 --> 00:32:07,402 Speaker 4: on climate need to stop fighting it. 503 00:32:07,722 --> 00:32:09,721 Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems like a good place to start, right, 504 00:32:11,522 --> 00:32:15,441 Speaker 1: and to end this season. Thanks Filippi, it's been an 505 00:32:15,522 --> 00:32:18,602 Speaker 1: absolute honor to work with you on this, and Alisi 506 00:32:18,922 --> 00:32:23,362 Speaker 1: and Marcia and everyone else on the team in Brazil Obriga. 507 00:32:24,322 --> 00:32:26,882 Speaker 4: Thanks Emmy, it was a great honor and a pleasure 508 00:32:26,922 --> 00:32:28,922 Speaker 4: for me as well. I've learned a lot from you 509 00:32:29,322 --> 00:32:32,161 Speaker 4: and from all of you who make Drill what it is. 510 00:32:32,722 --> 00:32:33,522 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. 511 00:32:33,962 --> 00:32:34,162 Speaker 5: Yay. 512 00:32:38,042 --> 00:32:41,762 Speaker 1: We reached out to Bruce Rastatter, Harold Hamm, the Frowns Brothers, 513 00:32:41,962 --> 00:32:46,002 Speaker 1: Miguel Vas Roberto, and all Summit companies and Brazilian government 514 00:32:46,082 --> 00:32:49,642 Speaker 1: agencies mentioned in this season for comment and have incorporated 515 00:32:49,682 --> 00:32:52,322 Speaker 1: any responses we received throughout the season. 516 00:33:00,922 --> 00:33:04,962 Speaker 4: Carbon Cowboys Cowboys of the Sejadu is a collaboration between 517 00:33:05,082 --> 00:33:06,802 Speaker 4: Drilled and The Intercept to Brazil. 518 00:33:07,322 --> 00:33:10,842 Speaker 1: The show was reported and written by Philippe Sabrina and 519 00:33:11,122 --> 00:33:12,402 Speaker 1: me Amy Westervelt. 520 00:33:12,762 --> 00:33:16,482 Speaker 4: Our editors are Audrey Queen in the US and Alissa 521 00:33:16,522 --> 00:33:17,762 Speaker 4: Desolza in Brazil. 522 00:33:18,122 --> 00:33:21,562 Speaker 1: Our senior producer and sound designer is Martin saltz Ostwik. 523 00:33:22,082 --> 00:33:26,122 Speaker 1: Audio production and sound design in Brazil by Marcia Heberdoza 524 00:33:26,322 --> 00:33:27,402 Speaker 1: and Philippe Mookx. 525 00:33:28,282 --> 00:33:31,122 Speaker 4: Theme songs and original music by Eric Dana. 526 00:33:31,482 --> 00:33:35,882 Speaker 1: Additional music by Martin Saltz Ostwick. Our engineer is Peter Duff. 527 00:33:36,482 --> 00:33:38,562 Speaker 4: Artwork for DRILLD is by Matt Fleming. 528 00:33:39,082 --> 00:33:42,282 Speaker 1: US fact checking from Naomi bar Brazil. 529 00:33:42,402 --> 00:33:44,402 Speaker 4: Fact checking by Studio Frontea. 530 00:33:44,722 --> 00:33:47,402 Speaker 1: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton with the First 531 00:33:47,402 --> 00:33:51,602 Speaker 1: Amendment Project. We are also proud members of Reporter Shield. 532 00:33:52,162 --> 00:33:56,322 Speaker 1: Big thanks also to Andrew Fishman, president of The Intercept Brazil. 533 00:33:57,202 --> 00:33:59,762 Speaker 4: DRILLD is distributed by Bushkin Industries. 534 00:34:00,282 --> 00:34:04,202 Speaker 1: Huge thanks to the team there, including Greta Cohen, Eric Sandler, 535 00:34:04,442 --> 00:34:09,842 Speaker 1: Grace Ross, Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, 536 00:34:10,362 --> 00:34:14,801 Speaker 1: Brian Shrepp, and Jake Flanagan. To hear the Portuguese version 537 00:34:14,842 --> 00:34:18,202 Speaker 1: of this series, head over to The Intercept Brazil's site, 538 00:34:18,802 --> 00:34:22,241 Speaker 1: or search for The Intercept Brazil's podcast feed wherever you 539 00:34:22,442 --> 00:34:23,642 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts.