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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefts Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is a musician, Warren Age. Warren, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good? Okay, So where are you right now? In

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Speaker 1: this corunap partners? I am in Westchester County, New York.

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Speaker 1: And how many people are in the house with you? Myself,

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Speaker 1: my wife, my eight year old son, and uh we

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Speaker 1: have he has a nanny that has been with us

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Speaker 1: the entire time, so we're all kind of quarantined together.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about being this age and having

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Speaker 1: an eight year old kid? You know, that's a good,

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Speaker 1: uh good point. I I became a dad at fifty,

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Speaker 1: which was I don't know if it's recommended or not.

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Speaker 1: In my case, it worked out really good because I

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Speaker 1: was on the road so much, uh for most of

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Speaker 1: my life that I never really wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: m I a dad, And so now I'm able to

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Speaker 1: spend a lot more time with him, starting when he

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Speaker 1: was born, and especially now than I ever have. I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm at home more than I've been in the past

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Speaker 1: thirty years. And other than the coronavirus situation, why you

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Speaker 1: go at a home more? Well, once he was born,

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Speaker 1: I started kind of tailoring my schedule a little bit

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Speaker 1: to spend more time at home and to make it

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Speaker 1: where I could come back and forth more often and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But uh, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a challenge just getting connecting the dots. But I love

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Speaker 1: being a dad. In my I was gonna say fifties,

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Speaker 1: but I just turned sixty. So how did you pull

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Speaker 1: the trigger? What was what was the thought process after

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Speaker 1: fifty years? Uh, look, I guess you know so, Uh

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Speaker 1: you turned sixty. I turned sixty at this point seven

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Speaker 1: years ago really fucked me up. I found fifty fifty

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Speaker 1: was no big deal. House sixty, Well, sixty was a

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Speaker 1: little intimidating, and still is. But the fact that I

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Speaker 1: spent my sixtieth birthday uh quarantined and with just the

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Speaker 1: four of us was a little surreal in a in

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Speaker 1: a bizarre way. We my wife and I had talked

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Speaker 1: six months earlier or something about Okay, we're gonna make

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Speaker 1: a big deal out of it, We're gonna bring in

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Speaker 1: friends and family and have a big blowout. And by

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Speaker 1: the time it all came around, that wasn't really meant

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Speaker 1: to be. And then when my birthday actually happened, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: happy birthday, We're the three of us are having a

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Speaker 1: great time. And now I just remember, literally starting around

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Speaker 1: the time of my birthday, and I didn't anticipate it,

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Speaker 1: turning sixty. A lot of ship that was meaningful before

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Speaker 1: suddenly wasn't meaningful anymore. I guess I realized at some

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Speaker 1: point I would die. Have there been any emotional changes

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Speaker 1: turning sixty. Well, yeah, And I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: is attributed to turning sixty, and how much is attributed

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Speaker 1: to the coronavirus, because the same thing for me, uh,

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Speaker 1: which I don't recommend. Okay. So going back to your son,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about your road work. How many forgetting coronavirus?

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Speaker 1: How many days a year you on the road now?

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Speaker 1: Prior to this, probably a hundred, two hundred and fifty, okay.

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Speaker 1: And once your kids started to go to school, your

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Speaker 1: kids stays home, your kid comes with you. How do

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Speaker 1: you work that he stays home except when it is

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Speaker 1: convenient for him to come for a few days. And

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Speaker 1: then I just find myself coming back and forth a

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Speaker 1: lot more often, which is fine, but it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of If we have two days off, I'll go home

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Speaker 1: for two days and go back on the road for

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Speaker 1: four or five days and then come back home for

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Speaker 1: two more days, which is a lot of wear and tear,

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Speaker 1: but definitely worth it. Now you're really seen as a

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Speaker 1: road dog. So how are you filling this time? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's been a bit of adapting. Uh, I'm writing a lot,

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Speaker 1: which is great. That's the one of the down one

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Speaker 1: of the one of the few upsides. But um, in

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Speaker 1: the beginning, just a lot of kind of thinking about

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Speaker 1: how to reinvent and how to kind of reinterpret the

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Speaker 1: whole situation. Um. Gradually, I'm getting my setup more and

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Speaker 1: more together where I can uh do more playing and

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Speaker 1: recording and stuff. But in the beginning I was mostly

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Speaker 1: just writing on acoustic guitar and writing a lot of

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Speaker 1: lyrics and uh taking advantage of that. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I've written this much since. Okay, So, prior to the

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Speaker 1: COVID situation, did you have a home studio only a

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Speaker 1: small one. There's a studio close by that I work

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Speaker 1: in a lot, and I've been for the past three

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Speaker 1: years trying to either build by a studio of my own,

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Speaker 1: which has been like an ever changing process. It's a

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Speaker 1: work in progress. Uh. My ability to record here is limited,

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Speaker 1: but getting less limited. Um, but it's really making me

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Speaker 1: think of things differently, Like I haven't been to the

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Speaker 1: studio that I normally record, and I haven't been there

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Speaker 1: since the coronavirus. Are you pretty tech savvy now that

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Speaker 1: you're alone without an engineer? Are you familiar with pro

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Speaker 1: tools or logic or any of that other stuff. No,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've been telling myself that I needed to

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Speaker 1: learn pro tools for the for years now, and of

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Speaker 1: course this is gonna be a great opportunity. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to force myself to do it. Okay, talk about

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Speaker 1: the writing process. Do you normally write songs or do

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Speaker 1: you say, put pick out a window, this is what

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna write a song? Or you wait for inspiration? Sure,

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Speaker 1: a normal routine. I usually wait for inspiration. I'm not

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Speaker 1: one of those people that rights every day or can

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Speaker 1: force myself to write. I know some people have good

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Speaker 1: luck with that, but I might go two or three

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Speaker 1: months without writing at all, and every time that happens,

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Speaker 1: I start getting this feeling of anxiety of have I

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Speaker 1: written my last song? And then eventually I'll write something,

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Speaker 1: and then another one will come pretty quickly. And another

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Speaker 1: one will come pretty quickly and I'm realized that I'm

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Speaker 1: back on the wave. But more often than not, it

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Speaker 1: starts with a lyrical idea. I find it easier to

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Speaker 1: write music based on a lyric that that already exists,

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Speaker 1: then vice versa. Now, having said that, in the past

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Speaker 1: six or eight years, I've been trying to do the opposite,

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Speaker 1: just to not fall into the pattern and to shake

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Speaker 1: things up a little bit. But I really enjoy working

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Speaker 1: that way. What I what I tend to notice is

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Speaker 1: that the up the up timpo songs start with the music,

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Speaker 1: and the mid tempo and down timpo songs usually start

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Speaker 1: with the lyric. Okay, so give me an example of

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Speaker 1: how you would latch onto a lyric. U Usually just

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Speaker 1: some sort of thought happens randomly, and I decide if

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Speaker 1: I like it or not. And these days I'm mostly

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Speaker 1: writing on the computer as opposed to by hand. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of stream of consciousness writing. And

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Speaker 1: if the thought, if the initial thought appears to me

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Speaker 1: in a way that I feel like it's a hook

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Speaker 1: or a title, then maybe that gives me some sort

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Speaker 1: of incentive or direction. If it's just a clever idea,

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Speaker 1: or something that taps into me emotionally that I just

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Speaker 1: start writing until either until it starts feeling forced, or

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Speaker 1: until something appears that sounds like a chorus, or you know,

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Speaker 1: every situation is different. Um, I know. Greg Alman used

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Speaker 1: to say there's as many ways to write a song

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Speaker 1: as there are songs. Okay, what is your motivation for

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Speaker 1: writing songs? Is it something you say, I'm an artist,

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Speaker 1: I have to do it, or is it something you

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Speaker 1: would do even if you weren't releasing music, or it's

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Speaker 1: about having something to say? What makes you write songs?

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Speaker 1: I'm more grateful for being able to write songs than

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Speaker 1: just about anything else in the world. It's therapy for me.

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Speaker 1: It's a creative outlet. It's uh something, it's a learning challenge. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the majority of the stuff that I

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Speaker 1: write most people will never hear, and that's kind of bizarre.

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Speaker 1: But there have been a lot of songs that I

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Speaker 1: wound up releasing at some point that started out as

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Speaker 1: just a personal song that I've I feel like I

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Speaker 1: wrote for myself. Um, I'd never think of it like

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Speaker 1: I need to write or what can I do to

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Speaker 1: write a song that more people will tap into or

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Speaker 1: that will make money, or I don't. I never think

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Speaker 1: like that. I write the song first and then think

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Speaker 1: about later, Hey, is it any good be Is it

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Speaker 1: something I could do? Is it something someone else can do?

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Speaker 1: You know it. I don't even think about the categorization

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Speaker 1: of the tune until it's finished normally. So let's go

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Speaker 1: back to the beginning. You're from North Carolina, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: we're in North Carolina, Asheville. Now Asheville, they you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of in the mountains. They got a ski area.

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Speaker 1: They have a rich person in a house there. You know,

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Speaker 1: what was it like growing up in Asheville. Well, when

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Speaker 1: I was growing up there, it wasn't the bohemian capital

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Speaker 1: of the South that it is now. Uh that's been

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Speaker 1: the past fifteen or twenty years that that transition had happened.

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Speaker 1: When I was growing up, a lot of great musicians, uh,

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Speaker 1: mostly guitar players, UM, a lot of bluegrass, a lot

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Speaker 1: of folk music, UM, and a lot of art and

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Speaker 1: a cool art scene. But it was much more underground,

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Speaker 1: unlike now where it's it's everywhere. It was always a

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Speaker 1: cool place. You know, being in the mountains is beautiful,

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Speaker 1: it's it's geographically beautiful, really great people. Uh, but I've

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Speaker 1: watched it kind of turned into what Austin is to

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Speaker 1: Texas Asheville is to North Carolina. Now, okay, so you

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Speaker 1: grew up what your parents do for a living? Um,

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Speaker 1: My parents divorced when I was eight, and I was

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Speaker 1: mostly raised by my dad, who worked in a grocery store.

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Speaker 1: They were both Uh they both grew up on farms

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Speaker 1: in Polk County, North Carolina, and then moved to the

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Speaker 1: big city of Ashville. Okay, just starting to Asheville. If

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Speaker 1: you want to leave Ashland, go to the big city.

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Speaker 1: What big city would you go to? Well, initially Nashville

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Speaker 1: was the closest one. And that's how far away? Five

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Speaker 1: hours by car? Not close, yeah, not close, but much

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Speaker 1: closer than New Yorker l a. Uh. So I went

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Speaker 1: to Nashville late eighty three, lived there. But before we

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Speaker 1: get there, let's say, Okay, your parents get divorced. Before

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Speaker 1: they got divorced, there were you Were you the only kid?

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Speaker 1: Or are the other kids? I have two older brothers,

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Speaker 1: two older brothers, how much older? Three years and five years? Okay,

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Speaker 1: your parents divorce, Uh, it's relatively uncommon for the kids

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Speaker 1: to go with the father. What was the thought process there?

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Speaker 1: You know? Uh, I was so young that I wasn't

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Speaker 1: such a big part of it. But it was unheard

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Speaker 1: of in the South at that time or anywhere, but

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Speaker 1: especially in the South at that time. Divorce was on

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Speaker 1: her of much less the dad getting the kids. UM.

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Speaker 1: I guess there was enough justification at that time for

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Speaker 1: my dad insisted that it that it be that way,

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Speaker 1: which for him meant working all day long and raising

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Speaker 1: three boys, which is uh, just an unbelievable task. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Was there ever a stepmother or stepfather my mom remarried.

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Speaker 1: I had a stepfather who passed away a little over

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Speaker 1: a year ago. Okay. And did you continue to have

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Speaker 1: contact with your mother growing up? Uh? We lost touch

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Speaker 1: for a short period of time, not much, um, and

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Speaker 1: it was a hard thing to get used to, uh,

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Speaker 1: but we eventually became closer and closer. It was a

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Speaker 1: bizarre situation for myself because my dad was When I

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Speaker 1: was really young, my dad was working all the time,

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Speaker 1: so it was me and my mom at home, and

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Speaker 1: then when she was gone, that changed completely. So it

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Speaker 1: was it was hard for me to adjust to My

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Speaker 1: older brothers did a little better job adjusting, I think, Um,

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Speaker 1: but she moved about an hour away, so we would

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Speaker 1: visit a lot. But you know, it was it was

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Speaker 1: uh not your normal as in Harriet type of situation.

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Speaker 1: Looking back at this age, deep into your life, do

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Speaker 1: you think your mother uh leaving to a great degree

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Speaker 1: affected you in certain ways that have sustained affected your adulthood. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure it did. Uh. I'm sure it

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Speaker 1: had a lot to do with my gravitating towards uh

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Speaker 1: music and poetry and songwriting and and traveling and all

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Speaker 1: the things that I chose, you know, but um, at

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Speaker 1: the time, I don't think you can never really know

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Speaker 1: what motivates that. But yeah, I think So. Do you

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Speaker 1: ever go to therapy? No, I think, Uh, I've thought

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Speaker 1: about it a lot in recent years, but never done it.

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Speaker 1: And um, I think songwriting has kind of been my therapy,

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Speaker 1: and I've always felt like without it or music in general,

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Speaker 1: but songwriting, especially music, has has been so therapeutic for

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Speaker 1: me that I think without it, I don't I have

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Speaker 1: no idea how adjusted I would be. Okay, So you're

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Speaker 1: going to school, or you're a popular kid, or you're

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Speaker 1: good in school, what's that experience, like I was semi popular,

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Speaker 1: you know, not not mainstream, but the musician circle that

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Speaker 1: I ran in, there were there were several of us

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Speaker 1: that had some sort of popularity. I've surprisingly was a

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Speaker 1: good student. I graduated in the top five percent of

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Speaker 1: my class and was in the National Honor Society. Um

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Speaker 1: had scholarship offers that I turned down, which I think,

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Speaker 1: uh shocked my dad, but he was supportive. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: was there music in the house growing up. Yeah, my

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Speaker 1: dad listened to Hank Williams and Bill Monroe and uh

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Speaker 1: Merle Haggard and George Jones, Ralph Stanley, stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Um My two older brothers have amazing taste in music

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Speaker 1: and had tons of records, eventually thousands of records. And eventually,

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Speaker 1: uh my middle brother collected to the point that he

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Speaker 1: started a record store of used in new records and

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Speaker 1: uh did that for about twenty five years and to

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Speaker 1: this day, I think he's got thousands of records, although

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Speaker 1: he closed the store a while back. Okay, how old

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Speaker 1: were you when he opened the store? Uh, I guess

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Speaker 1: I was in my twenties. Okay, so you were already

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Speaker 1: out of the house. Yeah, Okay, So when do you

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Speaker 1: first play a musical instrument. I started singing probably around

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Speaker 1: seven or eight, And thanks to my older brothers, they

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Speaker 1: had all this great soul music, the Temptations and the

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Speaker 1: Four Tops and Sam and Dave and Wilson Pickett. I

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Speaker 1: think James Brown was my first hero. Um we had

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Speaker 1: at a time when we only had a handful of records.

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Speaker 1: It was the best of Aretha Franklin, the best of

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Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder, the best of the Four Tops, you know,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. And they also had the Beatles and

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Speaker 1: the Stones. Um and the fact that they had so

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Speaker 1: many records just kind of gave me this library to

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Speaker 1: dig through. My oldest brother got a guitar when I

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Speaker 1: was eleven, and uh, I played it more than he did.

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Speaker 1: So I got my own guitar when I was twelve. Okay, See,

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Speaker 1: were singing like singing in school, saying in the in

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Speaker 1: the school chorus and in church in the beginning when

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Speaker 1: I actually went to church, um, but mostly in my bedroom,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, trying to sound like Wilson Pickett, but

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Speaker 1: sounded more like Smokey Robinson. Okay, so you pick up

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Speaker 1: the guitar. Your brothers guitar were levant you ever have lessons.

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Speaker 1: I took a handful of lessons from this guy named

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Speaker 1: Andy Hunter, who was a local UH blues guitar player

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Speaker 1: who was really great, but he was self taught, and

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Speaker 1: so after a few lessons, he kind of pulled me

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Speaker 1: aside and said, hey, you know, most of my students

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Speaker 1: don't even practice in the six days between lessons. I

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Speaker 1: can tell you're really serious about this. You should probably

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Speaker 1: just stay on the path of teaching yourself, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of the weirdest, most honest thing for someone to say, uh,

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Speaker 1: putting him out of work, But I think the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was self taught made him look at it

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Speaker 1: that way. I learned a lot from him, um, And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that stuck with me was his

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Speaker 1: fascination for what he considered the three Kings Freddie, B,

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Speaker 1: B and Albert. He said, if you listen to those

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Speaker 1: three guys your whole life, you still can't learn at all. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So that stayed with me. So how did you teach yourself? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Just records, skipping the needle back and play into records. Uh.

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Speaker 1: At some point I bought a music theory book and

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Speaker 1: just started studying that on my own and and in

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Speaker 1: high school I took a one semester course of music theory.

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Speaker 1: But mostly there were a circle of musicians that were

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Speaker 1: teaching each other how to play and playing together, and

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Speaker 1: we were all starting bands before we could even play,

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Speaker 1: which I think, looking back was probably a good thing

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Speaker 1: because we learned how to play music together, which is

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Speaker 1: very important. Okay, did you immediately? I knew from the

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Speaker 1: era we all and everybody in my generation a little

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Speaker 1: bit older than you played guitars, but it was clear.

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Speaker 1: I remember pretty much giving up when a friend of

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Speaker 1: mine said, Hey, we're gonna change keys, and I said,

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Speaker 1: We'll wait a second. It is a little too much

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Speaker 1: for me. So did you. It's always hard work to

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Speaker 1: be great, But did you feel you had a natural

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Speaker 1: affinity for it? I did. I felt like I had

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Speaker 1: an affinity for it. You know. I think everybody when

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Speaker 1: they first start, they think this is what I want

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Speaker 1: to do for the rest of my life. But then

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Speaker 1: that feeling dissipates at some point in a year or two,

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Speaker 1: and you start kind of losing interest. I just never

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Speaker 1: started losing interest. The interest uh increased, and I as

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Speaker 1: I got better, I kind of face the fact that

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Speaker 1: the more I learned, the more I wanted to do it.

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Speaker 1: And and when I was fourteen, there was a little

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Speaker 1: folk club down the street and I would sneak in

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Speaker 1: there when the drinking age was eighteen at that time,

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Speaker 1: and I would sneak in and hear these folk musicians

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Speaker 1: and it was just amazing here in live music like

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Speaker 1: that in a in a small environment. And then eventually

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Speaker 1: the word got out that I played guitar, so somebody

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Speaker 1: asked me to get up and play, and I did,

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Speaker 1: and then I was hooked. That's what I wanted to

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Speaker 1: do all the time. So you got up and play?

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Speaker 1: Would you play some blues or something? It was? It

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Speaker 1: was actually at that time the the stage in that club,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't put a drum kid on there. You could

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Speaker 1: only have two or three stringed instruments or something. But

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Speaker 1: there were a couple of people playing electric guitar, and

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Speaker 1: one of them gave me their electric guitar and and

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Speaker 1: I just played along and just remember I have a

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Speaker 1: visual recollection of that now and and and how it

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Speaker 1: felt as well. Uh, And it was just an amazing feeling,

334
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Speaker 1: something to tap into, something to be part of that

335
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: I had never experienced before. And what was the reaction

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Speaker 1: to anybody say, hey, kid, you're good to stay at it. Yeah,

337
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: there was a lot of encouragement, you know. Uh, the

338
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Speaker 1: um the local musician scene was very encouraging to me,

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Speaker 1: and so I would go there all the time, and

340
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: I met more and more of the local musicians and

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Speaker 1: they would all get me up to play. And that's

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Speaker 1: where I really developed this appreciation for folk music and

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Speaker 1: for songwriting in general, because a lot of those local

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Speaker 1: guys were fantastic songwriters and they were doing their own material.

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Speaker 1: And that was a revelation as well that these guys

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Speaker 1: are writing their own songs and they're really good. Then

347
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Speaker 1: they would also be playing Dylan songs and John Pryan

348
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Speaker 1: songs and uh, stuff like that. But it was turning

349
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Speaker 1: me onto this world of music that I was ready for.

350
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Speaker 1: So what was your first guitar? The first guitar I

351
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: had was called a Norma uh, and it was There

352
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: was a Norma Amp forty nine dollars and fifty nine

353
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Speaker 1: dollars respectively, and my dad got home at the local

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Speaker 1: hardware store. And how how long did it take to

355
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: graduate from that? I think probably a year or so.

356
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Speaker 1: I got a copy of a Gibson s G. There

357
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: was a hundred dollars about a year later, and then

358
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Speaker 1: about a year after that, I got a real Gibson

359
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: s G Jr. And my dad was really good about,

360
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: uh upgrading and just as long as I didn't lose interest,

361
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: he would continue to make sure I had a little

362
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Speaker 1: bit better guitar, a little bit better I amp. You know. Well,

363
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: I grew up in Connecticut. We would go into New

364
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Speaker 1: York Street whatever it was, and by where did you

365
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 1: actually buy the stuff you're in color? In North Carolina, Well,

366
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Speaker 1: there was a music store, oddly enough a few blocks

367
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Speaker 1: from my house. And when I would ride the bus

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Speaker 1: to and from school, that's where we would get on

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Speaker 1: and off. The bus was on that corner where the

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Speaker 1: music store was. And so at the at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, Uh, the two or three people that

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Speaker 1: were in my circle of musician friends, we would get

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Speaker 1: off the bus and immediately go into the music store

374
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Speaker 1: and just geek out and look at everything and annoy

375
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Speaker 1: the people that ran it, you know, and let's try this,

376
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Speaker 1: let's try that, and spend hours in there, uh, which

377
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: in hindsight must have been really annoying, but they were

378
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: so supportive and nice and and then of course we're

379
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: friends now. But uh, we literally spent hours of our

380
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Speaker 1: day in the music store just playing instruments. You know.

381
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Speaker 1: And when did you start forming bands? I think almost

382
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: at the very beginning, you know, we were designing album

383
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: covers and you know every crazy thing that that kids do.

384
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Speaker 1: That uh the first time I think we played in public.

385
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Speaker 1: There were a few things, like we played a walkathon

386
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Speaker 1: where these poor people that had just walked twenty miles

387
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 1: when they when they were done, they got like free

388
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Speaker 1: punch and to sit and listen to us play. And

389
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Speaker 1: it must have been very painful. But they were a

390
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: captive audience. You know. We played a few things. They

391
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: were all free gigs. In the beginning. We would just

392
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: play anywhere anybody would have us know, and what material

393
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: were playing? Oh my goodness, back then, Uh whatever was

394
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: going on at the time. Uh where it be Grand

395
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: Funk railroad, Uh could be uh well, you know, oddly enough,

396
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: when I was fourt in their fifteen, we had a

397
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: band called Blue Sky that was named after the Allman

398
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: Brothers song and we had two drummers. And so how

399
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: foreshadowing is that? I mean, you know, we played a

400
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: handful of of all my brothers songs, but we played

401
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: a lot of other stuff as well, but we were

402
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: big enough fans to call our band that. So you

403
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: graduate from high school and you tell your father, what

404
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: what's the path? Then I want to go on the

405
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Speaker 1: road and play music and uh not go to college.

406
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: And he was, I'm sure extremely disappointed because I would

407
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: have been the first person in our family to go

408
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: to college. Um. But he said, if that's what you

409
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: want to do and you're gonna give it everything you got,

410
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: then you have my blessing. And he was always supportive

411
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: that way. Um, I'm not sure that I would the

412
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: same decision given that decision to make now, you know,

413
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: for his decision, I mean, uh, you know, if it

414
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: were my son, I'm not sure I would be so understanding. Well,

415
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: let's just say, hypothetically, if you would gone to college,

416
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: what would be it would have been different for you? Um?

417
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: Good question, you know, because a lot of bands starting college,

418
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: you know, especially uh the New York scene when I

419
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: came to New York and uh bands like Blues Traveler

420
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: and Spin Doctors and of course the Dave Matthews band

421
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: in Virginia. All those bands, Uh, started out playing together

422
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: in college and started a scene at their college. So

423
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: maybe I would have done that. But had I gone

424
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: to college, I would have probably going into some sort

425
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: of creative writing journalism type situation, because that's what all

426
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: my teachers were pushing me toward. None of them were

427
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: pushing me towards music. Okay, you started writing songs relatively

428
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 1: immediately after you went to the folk club, even prior,

429
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: I would say, but really terrible, like horrible songs. But uh,

430
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: from the very beginning, I was writing songs, if you

431
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: could call it that. I started writing poetry before I

432
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: picked up guitar, So as soon as uh, I started

433
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: playing guitar, that just changed to song lyrics. Um, and

434
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: I would hate to go back and have to face

435
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: up to whatever those songs were now. But but unlike

436
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: a lot of musicians, it wasn't the case even with

437
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: the Stones. But we're gonna make a record. You should

438
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: write your own material. You were writing your own material

439
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: at the beginning, even before the dream. Yeah, and uh,

440
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, I guess uh bands from an earlier era

441
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: started out doing covers, but the era I was influenced

442
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: by at that time, I guess everybody was mostly writing

443
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: their own music, and I, in my head, that's what

444
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: you did. Okay. So you say you went to Nashville

445
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 1: when you were twenty three, what happened from eighteen when

446
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: you graduated from high school to tree. I was in

447
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: a band Locally. There was a band called Ricochet that

448
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: was kind of a Southern rock type band. I was

449
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: the youngest member of that band, and we were trying

450
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: to get a record deal with no clue as to

451
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: how to go about that. UM and that band went

452
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: through a few incarnations and broke up several times, and

453
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: then at the end, when the last incarnation reformed, we

454
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: did our very first gig. And the same day that

455
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: we played our first gig, I had gotten a phone

456
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: call UH from this guy that was playing UH in

457
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: David allen Coe's band, and he said, we're looking for

458
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: a guitar player. Are you interested? And I didn't really

459
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: know much about CO I didn't know his music, but

460
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: it seemed like a step up. And so after our

461
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: first reformed gig, I went to the guys and said, Hey,

462
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna take this gig and got on

463
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: a plane and UH flew to Baton Rouge Louisiana Christmas Eve,

464
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: and uh joined a situation that was I was totally

465
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: unprepared for okay, just to do a little backfilm. How

466
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: old were you when you first took the co gig? Uh?

467
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: I think I just turned twenty. Okay, so for the

468
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: two years since high school you were still living at home?

469
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: Were you making any money playing music? Uh? You know,

470
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: we were making enough money to be content. We we

471
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: weren't making very much money and it was not sustainable,

472
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: but it was at that time it was it felt

473
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: like a pretty good life. Um. I lived a friend

474
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: of mine named Matt Sluter. He and I had a

475
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: house together of our own that we rented for like

476
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: two hundred bucks a month or something. Um. But I

477
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: was only there about six months, and then that's when

478
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: I got the offer to go on the road and

479
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: wound up leaving. Uh. You know, like I said, at

480
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: the time, it just seemed like a step up, and

481
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: so I had to try and see what happened. Okay,

482
00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: you say you were totally unprepared. Amplify that? Well? Is uh? Music, lifestyle, entourage, Uh, persona,

483
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: everything was the whole other world. You know. I was

484
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: this little genteel hippie kid from Asheville, and I was

485
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: thrust into this world of of bikers and and uh

486
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: rowdy craziness, which you know. I guess education comes in

487
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: all forms, right. Well the first musically, do you have

488
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: any because obviously you have to be anxious, did you

489
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: have any problem fitting in with the band? Well, we

490
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: had a phone conversation, and I don't really, I don't.

491
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: I didn't consider myself cocky, so to speak. I was

492
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: pretty shy, but I guess I was somewhat cocky on

493
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: the phone. Uh. He said, I'm looking for a guitar player,

494
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: and I said, well, I don't really consider myself a

495
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: country guitar player and I'm not really looking to be

496
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: a country guitar player. Uh. And he said, well, I'm

497
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: looking for a blues rock guitar player to add an

498
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: edge to my music. And I said, well, if you're

499
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: saying that I can play like myself, then I might

500
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: be interested. But if you want me to play like

501
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: somebody else, I'm not interested. And he he liked that,

502
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: and he said, I think you're gonna be just fine.

503
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: This is this is co himself for your being. It

504
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: was it was him himself who I had never met,

505
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: knew nothing about and uh, so I flew to Baton Rouge.

506
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: I took one guitar with me. The Airlines lost my guitar,

507
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: and on the phone he had said, you know, I said,

508
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: I don't know any your songs, and he said, well,

509
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: come sit in the audience for two or three nights,

510
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: or stand backstage and and listen to the show, and

511
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: after a few nights you should be ready to play.

512
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that he was completely lying to me.

513
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: He uh, I got there, they lost my guitar. I

514
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: went to sound check and I was bitching and cussing,

515
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: and he said, what's wrong? And I said, the Airlines

516
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: lost my guitar. And he said, well that's okay. When

517
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: we play tonight, you can play one of mine. And

518
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: I said, well, what do you mean. I'm gonna sit

519
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: and listen to the show for a few days. And

520
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: he's like, oh no, not, I changed my mind. You're

521
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: on tonight. And so I went on stage and played

522
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of songs I've never heard before. Uh and

523
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: that was my audition. And were you replacing someone or

524
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: adding flavor? I was unbeknownst to me, I was the

525
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: only guitar player, the only guitar player. The other guitar

526
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: player had quit and it was me or nobody. So

527
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: that was the situation. But he didn't tell me that, Okay,

528
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: you're on the road, uh, the sex, the drugs. Are

529
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: you relatively innocent and all of a sudden there's craziness?

530
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: What's going on there? Yeah? I mean you know, I

531
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: knew some of that world from always being the youngest

532
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: musician in every band I was ever in, uh. And

533
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,959
Speaker 1: that was the case throughout my life up up through

534
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,479
Speaker 1: joining the Allman Brothers, up until Mark and Jonas and

535
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: o'teel and uh Derek Truck's joined the Allen Brothers. Up

536
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: until that point, I was the youngest person in every

537
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: band I was ever in. So I saw a lot

538
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: of debauchery that I wasn't connected to because in a

539
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: lot of cases it was a bit overwhelming, but it

540
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: kind of went with the territory. But I've never seen

541
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: anything like this. This was total mania, and I I

542
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: probably wanted to bail from the very beginning, probably from

543
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: the first week, if not the first day, but I

544
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: didn't want to give up. I didn't wanna be like, no,

545
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm quitting, you know, I had to give

546
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,919
Speaker 1: it a shot. And of course there were a lot

547
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: of upsides to it, you know. It was it was

548
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 1: uh being thrust into a world where I could make

549
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: records for the first time, travel all over the country,

550
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 1: go to Europe, all these things that I wanted to do. Um,

551
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: So it was a complete change for me, you know.

552
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: And are you a relative straight arrow or you the

553
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: type who likes to drink and drug at least some

554
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: point in your life. I think I'm pretty uh pretty

555
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: straight arrow as as relatively speaking. You know, I've been

556
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 1: alcohol free for thirty seven years or something like that.

557
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: And it's not because it was ever a problem with me. Uh,

558
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: it just wasn't my choice and it wasn't something I

559
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: was really that interested in. And how about drugs? Dabbled

560
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: but very little, you know, uh a lot of a

561
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: lot of smoking pot, okay. And then you have to

562
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: hit the last part of the trifecta. What about sex? Uh,

563
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: you know, less than average, I would say, you know,

564
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: it was there was some enticement early on when you

565
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: have no ties and connections to anything, but it just

566
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: never was my thing. So how long do you played

567
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: with Cole three years, three and a half years. And

568
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: how did that end? Um? I left his band in

569
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: January of eighty four, and about six months later he

570
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: called called me. He we had not spoken for a

571
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: long time or I quit and and he called me

572
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: and said, hey, I'm making a new record. Do you

573
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: want to come play on it? And I said yeah, sure,

574
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: And he said he won't come back on the road,

575
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: and I said no. And so then for the next

576
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: two or three records he would call me and asked

577
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: me to come in, but not for the whole record.

578
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: He was just asked me to play on two or

579
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: three songs, as opposed to in prior when I played

580
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: on the entire thing. So you quit? What was the plan? Uh? Two?

581
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: Go to Nashville pursue a career as a studio musician. Um.

582
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: It was the closest town to Asheville that had a

583
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: music scene and in five hours I could be home

584
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: in a car, So that part of it was was

585
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: kind of cool. Uh. I didn't know much about the

586
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: whole studio world, and when I started trying to thrust

587
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: myself in to it, there was a lot of learning.

588
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: But luckily I had learned a lot from being able

589
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: to play on on COEs records because he used all

590
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: studio musicians other than myself, and and for a while

591
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: UH Pedal Steel Player also played on the records, but

592
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: then he quit the situation as well. So I was

593
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: learning from all these A team studio pros that were

594
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: the best in the business, a lot of which had

595
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: moved there from Memphis and had played on you know,

596
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: all these great Memphis records and UH and some that

597
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: had moved from l A, but a lot of local

598
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: Nashville guys, and they were all just amazing at what

599
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: they did. But it was another world from what I did,

600
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: and so it was it was a lot to digest

601
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: and a lot to learn. As I started getting better

602
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: at it, and as I started getting more and more

603
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: UH demand or or more and more work offers, I

604
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: started realizing it's not really what I want to do.

605
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: I thought it was, but there wasn't enough being yourself,

606
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: you know. It was too much of a chameleon type experience.

607
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: You had to be what they wanted you to be

608
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: at pretty much every moment, and I couldn't really deal

609
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: with that. So what was the next step? UH? I

610
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: started thanks to this girl named Kim Morrison, who was

611
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: one of the people in Nashville that put together background

612
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: vocal groups. She called me one day and said, what

613
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 1: do you think about being part of some background vocal sessions?

614
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: And I said, well, you'd have to show me the ropes,

615
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: but yeah, sure, and so she did, and the next thing,

616
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, I was spending more time in the studio singing,

617
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 1: singing background on other people's records and not playing guitar.

618
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: And uh. I did that for a couple of years,

619
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: and I would talk to the producers and about, hey,

620
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: had you know I also played guitar, And the Nashville

621
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: mentality is, oh no, we got plenty of guitar players.

622
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: You know, you're a singer. And so it was good

623
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: for me in the way that I really learned a

624
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: lot about singing, harmony and adapting to any situation like that.

625
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: And it was great vocal stamina training because some days

626
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: we'd sing for like ten hours. Um. And so I

627
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: had met Dicky Betts along the way. I had met him,

628
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: I think when I was twenty one, and had sat

629
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: in with him when I was in Ko's band, and

630
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: he had sat in with us, and we kind of

631
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: had become friends, but we didn't see each other that often.

632
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: And so one day Kim called me and said, I'm

633
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: putting together a vocal group to sing background on Dicky

634
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: Bets's record. Do you want to do it? And I'm

635
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: like absolutely. So I walked in the studio and Dicky

636
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: looked at me and and he was like, what are

637
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: you doing here? And I was like, oh, here to

638
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: sing harmony. He's like, oh, you got a guitar and

639
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: I was like, no, I didn't bring a guitar, and

640
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: he just kind of laughed and said, well good, I

641
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: don't want to hear you play anyway. And you know,

642
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: so we're just like joking around, but it planted this

643
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: seat in his head because one of the guys in

644
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: his band, Marty Prevent, the bass player, had been kind

645
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: of pushing Dicky to get me in his band. And

646
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: so what I realized was they were making this kind

647
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: of Nashville country record and it wasn't it wasn't very good.

648
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: It was it was pretty stale and and like an

649
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: attempt at being commercial but very generic. And I was

650
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: happy to sing on it and reconnect with him. Uh.

651
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: And then he called me out of the blue and said, hey, man,

652
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: Uh I scrapped that record. Uh, he said it just

653
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't me. He said, uh, let's get together and write

654
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: some songs and make a can roll record. And so

655
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: we started writing and turned into his record pattern disruptive,

656
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: and that turned into me joining the all my brothers. Okay.

657
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: I know a lot of musicians, and it's frequently about relationships.

658
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: They say, oh, so and so called, but they were

659
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: big friends. Or as you say to the producer, hey,

660
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: I also play the guitar. To what degree were you

661
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: working at as far as selling yourself in greeting yourself

662
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: in the scene in order or are you sitting at

663
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: home waiting for the phone to ring. Well, I've never

664
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: been a super aggressive person. But someone told me when

665
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: I first came to Nashville that you have to take

666
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: every gig that's offered to you, and you have to

667
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: take every session that's offered to you, because the worst

668
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: one is going to lead you to something better. And

669
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: so I found that to be true. I would go

670
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: do these terrible gigs, uh, and these horrible recording sessions,

671
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: but I would meet somebody that called me three months

672
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: later and said, hey, I got this session or this gig,

673
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: do you want to do it. Um. So in that way,

674
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: I was open to whatever would happen. Uh. The the

675
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: final straw for doing those uh terrible gigs came for

676
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: me when I got a call to do this, uh

677
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: this gig in a club five sets a night dollars,

678
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: so it's five dollars a set. And we were in

679
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: the parking lot during one of the breaks and the

680
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: club owner came up tapping his watch, like, you boys

681
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: been on break too long? And I thought, no, I

682
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: think I'm done with this. I don't care if this

683
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: leads me to something else. I'm not doing this anymore.

684
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: And so, uh, my roommate went down and played the

685
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: gig the next night, and somebody fired a gun and

686
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 1: in the club, and I was like, well, it looks

687
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: like I got out just in time. But you know

688
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: it was. I met a lot of great people through these,

689
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: uh these situations that were far from my ideal. But

690
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the way it works. If you're

691
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 1: gonna do that, you have to kind of open yourself

692
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: up to everything. Eventually you meet more and more people

693
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: that that can help. And and uh, you know, there's

694
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: a guitar player in Nashville named Kenny Greenberg, and he

695
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: you're gonna mention, Okay, Well, Kenny, Kenny and I became

696
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: friends and he was kind of the own. He was

697
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: the first call guitar player for uh blues and rock

698
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: sessions and stuff in Nashville, which at that time there

699
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: were not many Uh it was much more country dominated

700
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: than even it is now. Um. But he and I

701
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: became friends, and we did some gigs together and some

702
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: sessions together. And he called me one day and said, hey,

703
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: I get some overflows sometime times sessions that I can't do.

704
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,479
Speaker 1: Can I give them to you if if I can't

705
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: do them? And I was like absolutely. I thought it

706
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: was a really cool thing for him to do. Uh.

707
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: He also recommended this gig that he couldn't do two

708
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: weeks with the Nighthawks, the Blues Ban the Nighthawks, And

709
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: I did that and it was a blast, and Jimmy

710
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: Hall was singing and playing harmonica and saxophone, and Jimmy

711
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: and I knew each other prior to that, but that's

712
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: where we really became close. Uh. But those kind of

713
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: relationships me and everything. Okay, you go to work with Dickey,

714
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: what's the what are the details to being part of

715
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,959
Speaker 1: the reconstituted Almond Brothers. Well, first we wrote a bunch

716
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: of songs and made his solo record. And during that

717
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: whole time process, I had no clue that they were

718
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: thinking of reforming the Alma Brothers. Every time it was

719
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: ever brought up, it was met with a resound no,

720
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: that's never gonna happen. They had vowed to never never reform,

721
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: and as far as I knew, that was going to

722
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: remain the case. So we did Dickie's record. I was

723
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: in his band for about two and a half years,

724
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: and then after his record, we we did a tour

725
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: promoting the record, and then there was a break and

726
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 1: I at that time I had gotten my first offered

727
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: to sign a record deal with my own as a

728
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: solo artist. So in my mind, that's what I was

729
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: gonna do. Okay, well it's slow down. How did that

730
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: come about? Well, uh, it actually had been brewing for

731
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 1: a while. I had made up my mind I don't

732
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: want to be a session musician. I either want to

733
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: be in a band where I'm the singer or one

734
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: of the singers, or I want to be a solo artist.

735
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: But I can't do this anymore. And so I I

736
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: hired a manager, this guy named Doc Fields who was

737
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: passed away years ago. He was my first manager, and

738
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: he started sending recordings out and getting interest from some

739
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: record companies and me as an artist. I think I

740
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: was seven or twenty seven, and when Dickie called me,

741
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: there was already some things in the works and I

742
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 1: wasn't even sure I was gonna be able to juggle

743
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 1: all of it, and the being a solo artist was

744
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: was very important to me, and I was up front

745
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: with him and said, hey, I'm a huge fan and

746
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: I really really want to do this, but I'm also

747
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: getting this other offer that's very important and I'm not

748
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: sure I can make it all happen. Uh. We did

749
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: make it work out, and I kind of put my

750
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: record on hold for a long time to do his

751
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: record and then do the tour, and then when when

752
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: that was over, I thought, Okay, now I'm gonna start

753
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: focusing on making a solo record. And then they called

754
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: me and said we're putting the all my brothers back

755
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: together and we want you to join, which was a

756
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: complete shock to me. I absolutely had no idea that

757
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: it was coming, and I was like, ship, Okay, I

758
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: guess I'm gonna have to have to postpone my record

759
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: again because there's no way I could turn that down.

760
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 1: And what year is up? Nine? So eighty nine at

761
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: the time they put together the Only Brothers. How many

762
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: dates a year were they working then? Obviously we're just

763
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: getting back together. Well, they they had released this Dreams

764
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: box set for the twentieth anniversary, and uh, they wanted

765
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: to do a tour in support of that. So it

766
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: was a twentieth anniversary tour promoting the box set, and

767
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: it was only intended to be a one time thing. Uh. Gullibly,

768
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: maybe I believed that I was gonna go do this

769
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: tour and go back to to my life. I had

770
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: no idea that they would, based on the success and

771
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: the chemistry and the fact that everybody was getting along,

772
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: that they would say, oh, let's do it again next year,

773
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: and the next year and the next year. It was

774
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: a year by year thing, um, And I think it

775
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: probably surprised everybody. From the beginning. The chemistry of that band,

776
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: that incarnation of the band was was pretty uncanny. Right

777
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: from the beginning, the original members were getting along again,

778
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: everybody was playing great, The new members were fitting in well,

779
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: and it was just coming together in a way that

780
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: exceeded everybody's expectations. And I think the smartest thing that

781
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: the band did was go back to the early stuff,

782
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: the Duyne, Almond, Barry Oakley era stuff, and pattern everything

783
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: around that. Not worried so much about having to touch

784
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: on every era of the band. They weren't so happy

785
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: with the last few records they had made, so there

786
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: was an instant decision to divorce themselves from that part

787
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: of their career and try to get back to the

788
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: original sound. I think they realized because Dicky and I

789
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: had several conversations that even though they felt like they

790
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 1: had backed out of the music business because they weren't welcome, uh,

791
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: they weren't really fitting into the current eighties situation about

792
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: by the late eighties, Stevie Ray Vaughan was doing great,

793
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: The Grateful Dead were still doing great, Robert Cray and

794
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 1: I remember Dickie saying somewhere in between all that stuff

795
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: as us, so maybe maybe it is time for us

796
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: to come back. And so that's what happened. Okay, how

797
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: much of your year was working on the Almond Brothers

798
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: and what do you do with the rest of the

799
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: time less than half we uh, we had more than

800
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: six months to ourselves. So I was, you know, recording demos,

801
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 1: writing songs, playing gigs, uh, playing my music, and pursuing

802
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff. And and it was nice that

803
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: I had that much free time around the all my

804
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: Brothers schedule. Um, but the whole time thinking well, I

805
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: need to get in the studio because years were going

806
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: by without me making my first record. You know. I

807
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: recorded my first record in two that I had been

808
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: working on in my head since seven. Okay, you joined

809
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: the Allman Brothers. Do they treat you right? Are you

810
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: a member of the band? Uh? Not a member from

811
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: a business standpoint, you know. Um, but I think a

812
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: really smart decision on their part, which I would assume

813
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: that they really had to look at it this way

814
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: because of the music and the the legacy of that band.

815
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: It wasn't debt on stage as like the original members

816
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: and the new guys or the sidemen. It was it

817
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: was a band. Everybody was meant to contribute and and uh,

818
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: you know a lot of bands that reformed, you would

819
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: have the original members visually would be the band and

820
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: everybody else would be like the hired guns, but that

821
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: that was never meant to be what the Allman Brothers was.

822
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: So from the very very beginning, the latitude that they

823
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: gave us all was tremendous, you know, input, plenty of

824
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: space to play and that way, I felt extremely included.

825
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: And and and I was writing songs, co writing with Dickie.

826
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: They were, Uh. I sang a song on the first record.

827
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: I sang a song on the second record. Uh, you know,

828
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: there was like the third record, and I felt like

829
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: in the situation I was in, they were they were

830
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,959
Speaker 1: really respectful of of my situation. So then Dicky gets

831
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: kicked out of the band. Give us your take on that.

832
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: I know it's dicey, but yeah, that was Uh, there

833
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: was a lot of water under the bridge. But between

834
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: eighty nine and that, when uh, when we when Government

835
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 1: Mule formed in late nine, Woody and I had no

836
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: um thoughts of leaving the Allman Brothers so to speak.

837
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: We were just doing a side project. But at that

838
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: time the Allman Brothers, the the original members, were not

839
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: getting along so well, and there was there was no writing,

840
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: no rehearsing, no recording, no communicating for that matter. And

841
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: so in Government Mule, all those things were flourishing, and

842
00:53:54,400 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: so it was the balance was shifting. So eventually, uh,

843
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: we felt like we needed to leave the Allman Brothers

844
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 1: in order to be taken seriously as government mule, because

845
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: it was turning into something more than a side project.

846
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: So in seven, Woody and I left the Alma Brothers

847
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: and it wasn't until I guess ninety nine that they

848
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: kicked Dickie out, which so I wasn't around for that. Um.

849
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: And that's that's a really touchy subject for for everybody,

850
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: but for myself, Dicky is the one that gave me

851
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: the opportunity. He's the one that brought me into the band.

852
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: He brought me into his band. He brought me into

853
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: the Alma Brothers. He insisted that I be a big

854
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 1: part of the writing process and the creative process and

855
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: and and you know, I feel like I owe him

856
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: a huge part of my career. And when was the

857
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: last time you talked to him? Uh? Last time I

858
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: talked to him was when he played peach Fest um

859
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: and we spoke briefly, but I listened to his his set,

860
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: and I guess that's been about a year ago. Okay,

861
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: you know, forgetting all the things that were said. One

862
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: of the discussions is that he was bipolar and would

863
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: sort of leave the boat for a while. Did you

864
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: experience that in your time with him? Well, suffice to

865
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: say the Allman Brothers was plagued with plenty of issues

866
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: along those lines. It's not really my place to examine

867
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: or report on on that. I knew the history of

868
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: the band before I joined, and you know, it extended

869
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: far beyond uh in any problems Dickie might have you know, um.

870
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: But there was a lot of drama for sure. I mean,

871
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, there was a time period when Greg and

872
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: Dicky couldn't or wouldn't communicate, and so Dicky would come

873
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: to me and say, hey, warn't I can't talk to Greg.

874
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: Will you talk to him about this? And then Greg

875
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: would come to me and say, man, I can't talk

876
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: to Dicky, will you talk to him about this? And

877
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: I was literally pushed me pull you in the middle

878
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: and trying to to kind of be Switzerland and and

879
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: not take sides, but and trying to just speak my mind,

880
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: but also to stay out of age old family feuds

881
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: that have been there for a long long time. So Yes,

882
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: Government Mule started as a side project two questions, why

883
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: is a government mule and why is government spelled g

884
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: O v apostrophe t all right, So this story is

885
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: a little less politically correct as time goes on. But Uh,

886
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: we were looking for a name for our band and

887
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: the only thing we had thought of was drag Strip Courage,

888
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: which was from a Tom Waite song, and we didn't

889
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: like it, but it was the best thing we had

890
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: thought of, and we're all big Tom Waits fans. So

891
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: the All My Brothers were headlining one night of Memphis

892
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: and May, which is the Bell Street Festival in Memphis,

893
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: and we were headlining one night and James Brown was

894
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: headlining the next night. So the All Brothers entouries left

895
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: after the show and traveled from Memphis to Atlanta. Woody

896
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: Allen Woody, the bass player who was in Government Bullen

897
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: and in Uh, the All My Brothers and Jamo, one

898
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: of the two original drummers, and the Allma Brothers stayed

899
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: behind to see James Brown. And there was a part

900
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: of the show where James was waltzing with his what

901
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: they determined later to be his wife, and Uh, Jamo

902
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: was referring to her anatomy and he pointed and said

903
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: to Woody, is that James his wife? And what he said, Yeah,

904
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: I think so, and he said ship, government, mule and

905
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: he was referring to the size of her ass. Unbeknownst

906
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: to either of us in Gulfport, Mississippi, which is where

907
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: Jamo was from, that was a term. And so what

908
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: he called me and said, I think I have the

909
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: name for her. So we're named after James Brown's wife's

910
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: big ass. And why the apostrophe? Why not the full stop? Um?

911
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: It was like, you know, when you rubber stamp government

912
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: owned some crate somewhere. You know, I'm not sure why

913
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: we chose that. You know, names are are funny, you know.

914
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: I don't know any band name that would would be

915
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 1: good if the band wasn't good. But uh, it haunted

916
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: us in some ways because when we would go overseas,

917
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: they would say, so, what does it mean, goof to move?

918
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 1: What gov to move? What does it mean? Oh well,

919
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: g O V apostrophe team means government and mule. We

920
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 1: were referring referring to the forty acres in the mule

921
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: and that whole thing, you know. And there was a

922
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: song on the first record that talked about that. But

923
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: in a lot of places. It went completely over people's heads. Uh.

924
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 1: And we didn't talk about where the name came from

925
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: for a long time because James's wife passed away and

926
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: it it seemed inappropriate to talk about even under any circumstances.

927
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: Probably um. But then a few years ago Matt App's

928
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: our drummer uh spilled the being. So we used to

929
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: always just say, oh, whatever, whatever you think it means,

930
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 1: that's what it means. You. Okay, So you start this

931
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: side project, you're done with the Allman Brothers discovernment mule?

932
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: Are you essentially starting over? Enough people know you that

933
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: it's happening. To what degree is the success? Is there

934
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: a success in your eyes at the beginning? Well, I

935
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: think more so than we expected, more recognition than we

936
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: expected to happen so soon, because our first record was

937
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: meant to be a side project. It was meant to

938
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: be a really low budget, experimental, improvisation oriented type record

939
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: in the beginning, even more so than it wound up being.

940
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: By the time we actually got a record deal and

941
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: a producer in a studio and all that stuff, I'd

942
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: written more and more songs, so it became more of

943
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: a song oriented record. But in the beginning, I wanted

944
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: it to be very uh, the psychedelic and and and

945
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: low pressure, you know. Uh. I've been listening a lot

946
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: to this record by Pat Matheny and Roy Haines and

947
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: Dave Holland called Question Answer, and I read in the

948
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 1: liner notes that they went into the studio, played a

949
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 1: bunch of songs one time, never played a second take,

950
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 1: never listened back to anything, and then he went back

951
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: into the studio a couple of weeks later and with yes, yes, no,

952
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 1: yes no. And that's the way that they made that record.

953
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 1: And so that was kind of what I thought we

954
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: should do for the first Government Mule record. Uh. By

955
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: the time all the red tape had been dealt with,

956
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: it was turning into something more than that. And I'm

957
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 1: glad because uh I liked the more song orient to

958
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: uh uh aspect of it. You know. But in the beginning,

959
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: we're just doing something for fun. We had no aspirations

960
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: on leaving the Alma Brothers, are doing a second record

961
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: or doing a second tour. We're just doing something for

962
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: the fun of it. The way it came about was

963
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 1: myself and Alan Woodie and Greg Alman used to share

964
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: a tour bus, and we listened to a lot of

965
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: music on the bus, as opposed to the other band

966
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: bus where nobody listened to music. And we Uh, one

967
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: day we were listening to Cream or Hendrix or something

968
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: and what he commented, you know, nobody does this anymore,

969
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: the whole power trio improvisational trio, rock trio thing. Nobody's

970
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 1: done that. And I was like, yeah, you're right, and

971
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: he said, you know, with the right drummer, you and

972
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: I could do that, and I thought of Matt Apps

973
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: and so that's where the idea was born. Um, but

974
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: again just something for fun with very little ambition. As

975
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 1: it changed into something else, then our priorities changed. Okay,

976
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: but if that you ultimately say, we're not working with

977
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: the Allman Brothers were working with Government Mule, correct, Yeah, yeah,

978
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: So how did they pull you back in? Everything was

979
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: for Government Mule was was really going great and uh

980
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: from a creative standpoint, From a business standpoint, we had

981
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: made three records, the band was progressing musically all the time,

982
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 1: and then Alan Woody uh passed away unexpectedly in two thousand.

983
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: So at that point I felt like Government Mule was finished,

984
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: that we were done, and it took me a long

985
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: time to wrap my head around even the concept of

986
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 1: trying to replace him and trying to continue on. Uh.

987
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: It's hard enough to replace any founding member, but in

988
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: a trio, I think it's even harder because in a trio,

989
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: each person as kind of depending on their personality to

990
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: be a third of the music. You know, when you

991
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: look at Cream and and the Hendrix experience, and even

992
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: bands like led Zeppelin and Free that we're a trio

993
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: plus a singer or The Who or Mountain Uh. You know,

994
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,959
Speaker 1: all these bands the bass player and the drummer were

995
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: having just by the nature of it to uh have

996
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 1: a much more aggressive role, which implied the need for

997
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: a lot of personality to come from those characters, you know,

998
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: and Alan Woodie was absolutely the perfect character for that.

999
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: That's why we we started the band in the first place.

1000
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: So I was ready to two in Government Mule. The

1001
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 1: first two phone calls I got were from Phil Lesh

1002
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: who said, Man, I feel so bad. I I know

1003
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: what it's like to lose someone that you have a

1004
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 1: profound musical relationship with and and that was a very

1005
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 1: heartfelt call. And the second call was from Greg who

1006
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: uh he and Woody were very close and they were

1007
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: they were they would ride motorcycles together. They uh, you know,

1008
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: our bus was there was a lot of camaraderie on

1009
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: our bus. And he was feeling the loss in a

1010
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: very similar way to mind. But he understood, uh, my loss,

1011
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: and and he said, how are you doing? And I said, well,

1012
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: you know, I'm still having these dreams like where he's

1013
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: in the dream. And just before he even thought about it,

1014
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 1: he said, oh, You're always gonna have those, and I

1015
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 1: was like wow. Until that moment, I didn't understand that

1016
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 1: he had those all the time, you know, But not

1017
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 1: during that phone call. But in one of the later

1018
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: phone calls, he said, sure, love be have you back

1019
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 1: in the Albam Brothers And so I thought, well, maybe

1020
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: I should give it a try, you know. So we

1021
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: we agreed to book the Beacon Theater for a ran

1022
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: and they we're gonna call it the alban Brothers with

1023
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 1: special guest Warren Haynes. So if it didn't work out,

1024
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: it wouldn't look like I had rejoined and then quit.

1025
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: So we did that, and the chemistry from the beginning,

1026
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: everybody sounded great. Everybody was in great spirits and at

1027
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: that time, I was thinking I can't really continue with

1028
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 1: Government Mule, and so I found myself back in the

1029
01:06:54,600 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 1: Albam Brothers. Uh and and I'm really glad that that happened. Uh.

1030
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: Keeping Government Mule together was a whole another thing. We

1031
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: came up with this idea which was born out of

1032
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 1: this dinner that we had. We had dinner with myself,

1033
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: my wife, Matt Apps, Alan Woody's wife, and Michael Barbierro

1034
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: are producer, and somebody said, well, if you were going

1035
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 1: to make a record, who would you want to play bass?

1036
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 1: And I said Jack Bruce, no, seriously, John Entwistle, no, seriously,

1037
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: Chris Squire no. And then we thought, well, why don't

1038
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: we ask each of these guys to play one song?

1039
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: And so that's how the whole deep End concept came about.

1040
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: We thought, let's go to all Alan wood He's favorite

1041
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 1: bass players and which are mostly our favorite bass players too,

1042
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: and ask them all if they'll be involved in this record,

1043
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: you know. So we spent this therapeutic time in the

1044
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: studio every day, a new favorite legendary bass player standing

1045
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 1: where Alan would he used to stand. And that's the

1046
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 1: way that we forced ourselves to kind of get back

1047
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: in the game. It was. It was cathartic, It was

1048
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 1: bitter sweet because there were these moments of absolute joy

1049
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: mixed in with all the pain and and more than anything, uh,

1050
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 1: it was an opportunity to reinvent ourselves because I started thinking, Okay,

1051
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: I've got to write a song for for Bootsty Collins.

1052
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 1: I've got to write a song, uh, for for Jack Bruce,

1053
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: I gotta write a song for for Larry Graham. You

1054
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 1: know all these things that I didn't just want to

1055
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: have people come in and play on any government Mule song.

1056
01:08:57,479 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 1: I wanted them to play on a song that they

1057
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: could insert their personalities into. And so by doing that,

1058
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: we were able to kind of expand the the sound

1059
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: of government Mule and the concept of government Mule to

1060
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: include all these other influences that we all had anyway,

1061
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: but had never been part of our band before. Okay,

1062
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: so you have that track, that train running down the track,

1063
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 1: you have the Allman Brothers. The Allman Brothers turned the

1064
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 1: Beacon into quite a month there in March in New

1065
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: York City. At what point do you say just staying

1066
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: on the Allman Brothers tip at one point to say

1067
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: I can't do this I have to do my own thing.

1068
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 1: Um you mean at the at the very end, at

1069
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: the very end. Well, I'm glad you you asked me that,

1070
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: because that's not really what happened that. Um. That story

1071
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 1: was so misconstrued in the in the press. Um. The

1072
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: I've told the story and before, and Derek's told it before,

1073
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 1: but it seems to be Uh. I guess it's hard

1074
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:09,839
Speaker 1: to get it to cut through all all the noise.

1075
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:15,640
Speaker 1: But the entire band had been talking about picking an

1076
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 1: end date when we were not gonna do this forever. Uh.

1077
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: A lot of the original members felt like at some point,

1078
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 1: and and the new members as well, we all felt

1079
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: like the All My Brothers isn't a band that can

1080
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 1: just go play the hits and go through the motions. Uh,

1081
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 1: play the same songs every night the same way. The

1082
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: band has never been about that. It's always been an

1083
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 1: improvisational band that gives a ten percent and leaves everything

1084
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: on the stage every night and in in the event

1085
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 1: that we can't do that anymore, rather than go out

1086
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: there and watch it deteriorate and get worse and worse

1087
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 1: year after year, then let's let's be aware of it

1088
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: and pick out pick a time when we're gonna do

1089
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:09,960
Speaker 1: the last tour, the last show, uh, and everybody was

1090
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: on board with that. With that concept, we were gonna

1091
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 1: do the final show at Madison Square Garden, and I

1092
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 1: think initially it was gonna be on Dwayne Alman's birthday.

1093
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 1: And and you know, we had made all these plans together,

1094
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: the entire band. Um As the end date got closer

1095
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: and closer, some people started getting cold feet and saying,

1096
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't think I want to

1097
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 1: go through with this. I'm you know, I think we

1098
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: would like to keep it going. And it was only

1099
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, one or two people that felt that way.

1100
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: Everybody else was pretty uh committed to stay in with

1101
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: the original concept. But when we would get together and

1102
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,839
Speaker 1: have these meetings about what about keeping it going longer

1103
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 1: with Derek Trucks and myself had made plans we had

1104
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 1: we had booked ourselves far beyond that concept, and it

1105
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 1: would mean completely disrupting everything that that that we had

1106
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 1: on the books and and going against everything that we

1107
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 1: were doing. And and we all for the most part

1108
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: still agreed that it was the right thing to do.

1109
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 1: Um So, Butch had gone on this cruise and said

1110
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:32,559
Speaker 1: to a panel that, uh, the Allman Brothers was going

1111
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: to continue and but that that Derek was no longer

1112
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: going to be part of it, or something to that effect.

1113
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: And he didn't realize that there was a rowing Stone

1114
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 1: writer on the cruise that was was part of that.

1115
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 1: And so as soon as they docked, the guy called

1116
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: Burt Holme and the Allman Brothers manager and said, what's

1117
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:57,679
Speaker 1: going on? Bert called Derek. Derek called me, and uh,

1118
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 1: We're like, well, you know we're on the same page,

1119
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 1: aren't we. Aren't we continuing with this plan? And so uh,

1120
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: Derek said, well, I think I think I should just

1121
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: put out a press release saying that I'm leaving the

1122
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 1: band because I can't do this. I have all this

1123
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: other stuff committed to that I'm not willing to to change.

1124
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: And I'm not speaking for Derek, but this is this

1125
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 1: is the way it went down. And he and I

1126
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 1: had kind of always made a pact um if you go,

1127
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 1: I go. We had always felt that way that I

1128
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: didn't want to be in the band without him, he

1129
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 1: didn't want to be in the band without me, and

1130
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 1: I think most of us kind of felt like this

1131
01:13:39,080 --> 01:13:41,439
Speaker 1: is the last version of the Alma brothers, we should

1132
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 1: we shouldn't water it down and take a chance on

1133
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 1: deteriorating it by creating yet another incarnation this far down

1134
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,639
Speaker 1: the line. And so he said, well, I think that's

1135
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 1: that's what we should do it. I said, well, if

1136
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:55,719
Speaker 1: you're gonna do that, then let's do it together. Let's

1137
01:13:55,720 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: just put out a dual press release saying that this

1138
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 1: is what's happening. And it was. It was really unfortunate

1139
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: because we tried to take an advantage of the opportunity

1140
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 1: to tell people in the media that that's what was happening.

1141
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: But it was very awkward and uncomfortable. Uh So I

1142
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 1: never did feel like uh I was leaving the band,

1143
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: and and I and Derek never did either. It was

1144
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: we were just going through with the plan that we

1145
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: had had for several years. Okay, how did you end

1146
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: up playing with the Dead Dead? And Phil Lesh? Uh?

1147
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 1: Phil Lesh called me in the late nineties and said

1148
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:44,080
Speaker 1: that he had put together a list of musicians that

1149
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:46,599
Speaker 1: he wanted to work with and that I was on

1150
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: that list, and was I interested in coming to California

1151
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 1: for a few days rehearsal and do a couple of

1152
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 1: shows and see what happened, and I said, absolutely, so

1153
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 1: I flew to to California. We rehearsed for a couple

1154
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 1: of days, we did, uh did two shows, and it

1155
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: was a blast. I really enjoyed it, and that was

1156
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of very uh long running, beautiful relationship. Um.

1157
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 1: It turned into me eventually being asked to tour with

1158
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 1: the Dead in two thousand three and in two thousand nine,

1159
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: and I really loved that experience. You know, I love

1160
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:31,680
Speaker 1: all those guys. I'm really honored to be part of that,

1161
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:34,960
Speaker 1: that family and that and part of that, uh, that

1162
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 1: musical family. I guess it's unfortunate that, uh, there was

1163
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 1: a lot of tension among the original members during the tours,

1164
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 1: that there was a chance it was gonna go longer,

1165
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 1: and probably could have and maybe should have, but it

1166
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: wasn't meant to be. And having dealt with the Allman

1167
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 1: brothers in a similar fashion, I respect that. You know,

1168
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 1: when things are not jail ling on the road, these

1169
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:07,640
Speaker 1: bands have histories that predate everything, and so you know,

1170
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: whenever there's tension and drama, it usually has something to

1171
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 1: do with something that happened a long long time ago. Okay, Well,

1172
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:21,639
Speaker 1: needless to see the Allman Brothers are history, and phil

1173
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 1: Lesh does not go on tour. Where does this leave

1174
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 1: Warren Haines? Um. You know those years that I did that,

1175
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 1: I juggled so much, so many balls, Like there was

1176
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 1: one year I did the Allman Brothers and Mule and

1177
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: the Dad and I didn't think it was possible. I

1178
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 1: went to my wife and said, you know, I have

1179
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 1: this this situation and it's being offered to me. I

1180
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 1: don't see any way of making it work. And she

1181
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:59,439
Speaker 1: was like, slow down, do you want to look back

1182
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: and think I had this opportunity? But I said no,

1183
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:11,200
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, maybe not. So we did

1184
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:14,960
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of communicating, a lot of

1185
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of behind the scenes with all

1186
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 1: the camps working together to make things work out in

1187
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,600
Speaker 1: a way that wasn't ideal for any of the situations

1188
01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:32,800
Speaker 1: but worked for everybody. Um. So when that load was

1189
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 1: removed and it made things a bit more normal for me,

1190
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:41,679
Speaker 1: you know, I really embraced and enjoyed at the time

1191
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 1: working to the extent that I was. I love that.

1192
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's nothing I love more than playing music,

1193
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 1: and I look at it like an athlete, you know,

1194
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 1: when you're on top of your game and and there's

1195
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 1: a demand, and you've got a great team or two

1196
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 1: great teams or three great teams that you're lucky enough

1197
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 1: to be part of, then yeah, let's make hay when

1198
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:08,759
Speaker 1: the sun shine and uh. You know, I really felt

1199
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: wonderful about all that stuff. But then when it was

1200
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: finally over, I'm like, oh, it is kind of nice

1201
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: to be home for a minute. You know. Um these days,

1202
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 1: you know, prior to the coronavirus, which leads us back

1203
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 1: to where we were, I worked pretty much the amount

1204
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 1: of time that I feel comfortable with and and you

1205
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 1: know if I if I work less, I start to

1206
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: get a little antsy uh, And I don't need to

1207
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: to work more than I have been. It's it's been

1208
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 1: a pretty rigorous schedule, which which I enjoy. But you know,

1209
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 1: another another way I would compare it to being an

1210
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,599
Speaker 1: athlete is like, you know, I'm I'm sixty years old.

1211
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 1: I'm very happy that I've had the career that I've

1212
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 1: had and had the opportunities that I've had, and I

1213
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:58,920
Speaker 1: want to be like John Lee Hooker playing when I'm eighty.

1214
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 1: But at the same time, there are windows that we're

1215
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,720
Speaker 1: confronted with you know, there, you're not going to be

1216
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:12,640
Speaker 1: able to do what you do in the prime of

1217
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 1: your life for every year of your life. And so

1218
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: I've always felt like things kind of dwin to let

1219
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 1: their own pace, and um, whatever slowing down occurs, it

1220
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 1: occurs because it needs to and it's the right thing.

1221
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:36,680
Speaker 1: And uh, I feel it's very organic, you know. So

1222
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: do the hundred hundred twenty dates a year, you do? Now,

1223
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 1: how many of those are Government Mule and one are

1224
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 1: the other ones mostly mule? You know. I do a

1225
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:49,280
Speaker 1: handful of solo acoustic shows. Uh, do a handful of

1226
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:53,559
Speaker 1: shows with Phil lash and and uh a handful of

1227
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 1: other things where something really interesting will come along. You know.

1228
01:19:57,200 --> 01:19:59,800
Speaker 1: I did the last Waltz tour, which was a bl

1229
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: asked um. But Government Mule is the main priority, and

1230
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:09,679
Speaker 1: and any work as a solo artist beyond that, you know. Uh,

1231
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to making another solo record, but

1232
01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 1: I'm also looking forward to making another Mule record. Um.

1233
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 1: You know, I feel like I'm so lucky as a songwriter.

1234
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm lucky in every aspect of my career. I'm just

1235
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 1: really grateful for the opportunities that I've had. Uh, it

1236
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 1: really kind of played out exactly like I hoped, in

1237
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 1: a way that one could never predict or expect. But

1238
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,559
Speaker 1: I'm lucky in the way that I write all these songs.

1239
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 1: Some of them are not meant to be government mule songs.

1240
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:45,200
Speaker 1: Some of them were not meant to be all them

1241
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,720
Speaker 1: brothers songs. Some of them maybe we're not intended for

1242
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:51,360
Speaker 1: for me. But the fact that I have all these

1243
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:54,760
Speaker 1: different outlets and that you know, maybe somebody else will

1244
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: wind up recording it, or maybe I just wrote it

1245
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:02,200
Speaker 1: for the gratification of of writing the song. Um, you know,

1246
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: when all those situations were happening, I would find myself

1247
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,680
Speaker 1: writing for the sake of the song. And when the

1248
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 1: song was written, as we talked about earlier, then I

1249
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 1: would think, oh, is this a mule song? Could this

1250
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:16,720
Speaker 1: be an Allam brother song? Is this something I would

1251
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,400
Speaker 1: do on one of my solo records. But I never

1252
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,720
Speaker 1: wanted to think about that during the writing process. I

1253
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 1: wanted to wait and back up away from it and

1254
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 1: figure it out after the fact. So at this point,

1255
01:21:30,320 --> 01:21:33,800
Speaker 1: and don't be humble, what is the dream? What is

1256
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 1: it that you want to achieve? Certainly you can play,

1257
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 1: But what is the goal now, whether you achieve it

1258
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 1: or not. Well, it probably sounds stupid to say, but

1259
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: I don't think I've made my best record, and I

1260
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 1: don't think I've written my best song. Think the goal

1261
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 1: for me is to keep going in a way that

1262
01:21:56,479 --> 01:22:00,599
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm breaking new ground because I've been

1263
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: really lucky to have that opportunity to keep not repeating myself.

1264
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 1: You know. Uh, somebody asked me, like role models, not

1265
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:17,680
Speaker 1: so much role models in a humanitarian way, but he

1266
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:20,560
Speaker 1: role models in a in a career way, or a

1267
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:25,640
Speaker 1: history way, or a music way. Miles Davis to me,

1268
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:29,760
Speaker 1: the fact that he was constantly reinventing himself and by

1269
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 1: the time people got used to his new music, he

1270
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,680
Speaker 1: was already thinking about something else that they weren't going

1271
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:37,400
Speaker 1: to get used to for another couple of years. That's

1272
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: been such a wonderful example for all of us that

1273
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 1: I tend you know, I can only take a small

1274
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:47,640
Speaker 1: amount of that advice for in the parameters that that

1275
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 1: I'm given, But I think of it like that. I think,

1276
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to redo what I've already done,

1277
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 1: you know. And and as musicians, we don't really have

1278
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:02,919
Speaker 1: a lot of choice in that matter, and I somehow

1279
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,439
Speaker 1: have managed to have a little more choice than the

1280
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: average person, you know, to to make those decisions that

1281
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,439
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna remake my first record and my second

1282
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 1: record and my third record. I'm gonna make something that's

1283
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,280
Speaker 1: completely different and if people get it, great, you know,

1284
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 1: but it's something I need to do. Well. Just staying

1285
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 1: on that point, how lucrative is your career been? Uh,

1286
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:32,520
Speaker 1: I have no complaints whatsoever, you know. I've been successful

1287
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 1: as a musician, as an artist, as a songwriter, you know,

1288
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 1: and and and lucky enough to have written songs for

1289
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 1: for people that uh, you know, like when I wrote

1290
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:51,880
Speaker 1: Two of a Kind working on a Full House for

1291
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:57,400
Speaker 1: Garth Brooks. Uh. When I co wrote that song, I

1292
01:23:57,400 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 1: had no idea that it was going to become such

1293
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:03,280
Speaker 1: a huge number one song that would keep generating income

1294
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 1: for years to come. Um, and I'm I'm very thankful

1295
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 1: for that, you know, George Jones recording one of my songs,

1296
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:13,719
Speaker 1: and he's one of my heroes, so that, even aside

1297
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 1: from the money part of it, I was just so

1298
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 1: honored to have people like George Jones and John may

1299
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:23,639
Speaker 1: All that I grew up listening to recording my tunes.

1300
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:27,679
Speaker 1: You know. It's uh, that's there's some gratification from that.

1301
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: That's that's beyond the business part of it. Okay, needless

1302
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 1: to say, well, you've been on this path. The whole

1303
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 1: business has changed, certainly the business element, but also the

1304
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,559
Speaker 1: music element. Certainly you were there at the right time

1305
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:49,440
Speaker 1: when jam band scene was very big early to mid nineties.

1306
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 1: There's certainly a scene at this point in time, but

1307
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:57,120
Speaker 1: it is not the dominant popular music. You're essentially a

1308
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,839
Speaker 1: rock artist. How do you feel about being rock artist

1309
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 1: in a world where all the hype and a great

1310
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:07,280
Speaker 1: certainly percentage of the recording revenue goes to pop and

1311
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:13,320
Speaker 1: hip hop. Well, you know, I have to look at

1312
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:16,479
Speaker 1: it in a similar way to the way jazz artists

1313
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,720
Speaker 1: have looked at their entire lives. You do what you

1314
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:22,719
Speaker 1: do because you love it, and if there are times

1315
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,559
Speaker 1: when it's in vogue, then that's great. And I've had

1316
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 1: more of those times than I could hope for. Um,

1317
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 1: But I've never felt like I could change what it

1318
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 1: is that I love because I feel like it's not

1319
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:45,680
Speaker 1: mainstream or not enough people would support it, you know. Um,

1320
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: I remember maybe it was went and Marsava. Somebody said

1321
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 1: about Jazz that they asked him a similar question and

1322
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:58,559
Speaker 1: he said, well, you have to realize that what we're

1323
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:02,360
Speaker 1: doing is filet mean on a lot of people would

1324
01:26:02,360 --> 01:26:08,720
Speaker 1: prefer to eat to McDonald's. That's pretty definitive. Uh. The

1325
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:11,720
Speaker 1: other thing, of course it's been changed, is that you say,

1326
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 1: you know the al the tour used to be the

1327
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 1: advertisement for the album. Now the albums the advertisement for

1328
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 1: the tour. How is the shift to touring? Let me

1329
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 1: put it in a different way. If you had to choose,

1330
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:26,880
Speaker 1: or maybe with percentage, are you more about the live

1331
01:26:26,920 --> 01:26:30,960
Speaker 1: experience or more about the studio writing experience? Well, I

1332
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 1: can answer both of those. Um, if I had to choose,

1333
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:42,840
Speaker 1: the live experience is more gratifying, you know because for me, uh, improvisation,

1334
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 1: which is just momentary composition, that's my most favorite thing

1335
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: as a musician. As a songwriter, it's a little different.

1336
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 1: As a singer, it's a little different, but performing is

1337
01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:58,919
Speaker 1: still always gonna win out for me. Um. The business

1338
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:02,200
Speaker 1: part of it, you know, we were always one of

1339
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:05,400
Speaker 1: those bands and the Allman Brothers, Government Mule, all the

1340
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 1: bands in that sort of scene. We're always one of

1341
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:14,720
Speaker 1: those bands that touring generated the better income. So when

1342
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: that changed, it wasn't a huge change for us like

1343
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:22,120
Speaker 1: it was for bands that were selling millions and millions

1344
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 1: of records. Um, so we were maybe ahead of it

1345
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 1: a little bit because that's what we had always done.

1346
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:33,360
Speaker 1: It is a little tough when they start taking a

1347
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: zero away from all the budgets. And you know, it

1348
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:39,879
Speaker 1: used to be if a band sold a million records,

1349
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: well now they're selling a hundred thousand. If they sold

1350
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:44,559
Speaker 1: that a hundred thousand, and now they're selling ten thousand,

1351
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:49,879
Speaker 1: so you know, and budgets are corresponding with that. You know. Uh.

1352
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 1: In the in the seventies, bands were making records, spending

1353
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:57,960
Speaker 1: like half a million dollars on a record, and then

1354
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:00,640
Speaker 1: you fast forward to now and you gotta make a

1355
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 1: record for twenty grand. Uh. It's it's challenging, and it

1356
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:08,320
Speaker 1: means we're never gonna get Dark Side of the Moon

1357
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:11,920
Speaker 1: or Stillly dan Asia or Fleetwood Mac rumors. We're never

1358
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 1: gonna get those records ever again unless something changes in

1359
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:19,000
Speaker 1: a way that would allow that to present itself, you know,

1360
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 1: because bands don't have the opportunity, artists don't have the opportunity.

1361
01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:26,280
Speaker 1: Even if you have a home studio. A, it's not

1362
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:29,120
Speaker 1: gonna be as good as the studios those records were

1363
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:31,760
Speaker 1: made in. And B. You don't have a year and

1364
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:34,599
Speaker 1: a half to make a record uh or six months

1365
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, some of those records took um.

1366
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 1: I love making records, but playing live is is definitely Uh, well,

1367
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:47,839
Speaker 1: it's more fun because making records is tedious. Making records

1368
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 1: you is not. It's not so much the creative side

1369
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: of your brain at work all the time you're you're

1370
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 1: it's more work and less play. You know, when you're performing,

1371
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,800
Speaker 1: the ultimate thing you can do is to shut your

1372
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: brain off and go on autopilot where you're not thinking

1373
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 1: at all. And that's something that you try to do

1374
01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 1: in the studio, but it's not as achievable. So what

1375
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:20,040
Speaker 1: is your favorite Allman Brothers song to play? Uh? Maybe Dreams.

1376
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 1: I really loved playing Dreams. Uh. A whip and post

1377
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:27,080
Speaker 1: is great because you can take it anywhere you want

1378
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:29,280
Speaker 1: to go. You know, sometimes we would stop in the

1379
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:33,160
Speaker 1: middle and go off to a unchartered territory and nobody

1380
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:35,559
Speaker 1: would even know how it was going to come back.

1381
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:38,559
Speaker 1: And the same with songs like in Memory of Elizabeth Reid.

1382
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:42,320
Speaker 1: But there's so many great songs in the catalog. Just

1383
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 1: playing the song itself sometimes is a joyous feeling as well,

1384
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:50,840
Speaker 1: you know. Um, But I love the ones that we

1385
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:54,840
Speaker 1: can reinterpret on a given nine. So you know, you

1386
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:59,080
Speaker 1: do a great version of Don Henley's Wasted Time. Are

1387
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 1: you someone who's very broad in your musical knowledge and

1388
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 1: musical taste? Uh? Because many people would pooh pooh that

1389
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:13,599
Speaker 1: music relative to the Almond Brothers music. Uh. Yeah, My

1390
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:18,759
Speaker 1: taste runs extremely wide. I love so many types of music,

1391
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:24,360
Speaker 1: and I try not to be um, try not to

1392
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 1: be a snob about the actual music that I like

1393
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:30,600
Speaker 1: on a song by song basis I can be a

1394
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:35,640
Speaker 1: snob about Uh. Let's say it differently. I want to

1395
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,439
Speaker 1: open myself to every genre and whatever the best is

1396
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:43,720
Speaker 1: in that genre, I'm open to. Um. And for the

1397
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:46,320
Speaker 1: most parts, I think that's that's true. You have to

1398
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:52,040
Speaker 1: take it. Uh. If I hear music, either I get

1399
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:55,439
Speaker 1: or you don't like it, you know. And I'm definitely

1400
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 1: not the dude from Big Lebowski that I hate the

1401
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:04,760
Speaker 1: fucking Eagles Man that I'm not that, although I love

1402
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 1: the dude. Uh. And I know it's it's not uh,

1403
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:16,240
Speaker 1: maybe it's not hip to say this, but nobody can

1404
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,400
Speaker 1: deny a lot of the great songs that those guys

1405
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 1: are unbelievable. I'm a huge fan and I and and

1406
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 1: the poppy stuff is is incredible on its own merit.

1407
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 1: But then when you talk about songs like Wasted Time

1408
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 1: that wasn't written to be a pop song, it's just

1409
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,960
Speaker 1: a great, well crafted song you can go on with

1410
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: your life, baby that I can go on with mine.

1411
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 1: Just for the first time, I heard that lyric whole

1412
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 1: and the other day I've thought about which I think

1413
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 1: I did solo acoustic once or twice? Uh, the song uh,

1414
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 1: the Last Resort, that's not meant to be a pop song.

1415
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:57,080
Speaker 1: It's just a beautiful song, and nobody can deny that.

1416
01:31:57,520 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 1: To what to greedy to keep up on new music?

1417
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:03,840
Speaker 1: I wish it was more And I'm sure some of

1418
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:05,640
Speaker 1: it's my fault, but I blame a lot of it

1419
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:09,320
Speaker 1: on the new music itself because it's really hard for

1420
01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 1: me to connect to most of it. When I hear

1421
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:14,720
Speaker 1: something that I like, I'm really grateful and and and

1422
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 1: uh and and I'll open to it, but a lot

1423
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:21,639
Speaker 1: of it I think is just aspiring to the lowest

1424
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:26,559
Speaker 1: common denominator, lowering the bar. Uh. People are selling out

1425
01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:29,799
Speaker 1: at every turn. The thought process from the very beginning

1426
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:32,559
Speaker 1: is what can I do to get more likes or

1427
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: make more money, or get more attention, or sell more

1428
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 1: records or more streaming or more downloading or whatever. It

1429
01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:42,000
Speaker 1: should start with the music and all that should be secondary,

1430
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:45,920
Speaker 1: you know. And and Uh, when you start compromising your

1431
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 1: music before you even make it, I think you're looking

1432
01:32:49,200 --> 01:32:53,479
Speaker 1: at it backwards. There are things. How did the fifty

1433
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:56,960
Speaker 1: at the anniversary Almond Brothers gig come together got a

1434
01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:00,400
Speaker 1: rousing reception? Is that a one off? Do you think

1435
01:33:00,400 --> 01:33:03,439
Speaker 1: there'll be anything like that in the future. It came

1436
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:10,320
Speaker 1: together because Jmo called all of us and said, we

1437
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:14,920
Speaker 1: need to do a fiftieth anniversary show, and it it

1438
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 1: was the opportunity to do that show at Madison's Corpy

1439
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:20,479
Speaker 1: Garden that we never did that We had talked about

1440
01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 1: being the final show before. Uh. It's always been our

1441
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:27,040
Speaker 1: intent for it to be a one off and and

1442
01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 1: not not do it again. The odd thing is, after

1443
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:40,320
Speaker 1: all this coronavirus and the new norm, I don't know

1444
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 1: a if it would even be possible to do it

1445
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:46,639
Speaker 1: on the other side and be would we look at

1446
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 1: it differently, more favorably, less favorably. I don't. I don't

1447
01:33:51,479 --> 01:33:54,920
Speaker 1: really know, but our intent was always too for that

1448
01:33:54,960 --> 01:34:00,160
Speaker 1: to be the finality and be done with it. Well,

1449
01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:03,160
Speaker 1: this has been wonderful Warren. We look forward to you

1450
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:05,720
Speaker 1: being back on the boards and certainly your new recordings.

1451
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:09,280
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for doing this my pleasure. Nice talking

1452
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:11,559
Speaker 1: to you until next time. This is Bob left sus