WEBVTT - The Man Who Teaches Our Cops To Kill 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:08.239 M what's overthrowing the government? My everyone? Uh, this is 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.520 Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards, the show about bad people, UH, 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.320 recording right now in the middle of what's what's rapidly 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:23.400 turning into a nationwide insurrection against uh legally constituted power. Uh. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:27.640 And my guest, as with all insurrections, is the inimitable 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:36.320 Jack O'Brien. Yeah, what's up, guys. How quite a year Jack. Yeah. 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.680 As you can see, I'm standing in from the flaming 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.920 police headquarters. I have a sword, my shirt is tied 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:49.320 around my head, uh, and I'm covered in blood. But yeah, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.440 I'm I am really you know Jack, when you got 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.760 that full chest fuck the police tattoo last year, I said, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.520 when are you going to have a chance to show 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.760 that off? And I, by god I was wrong. Yeah, man, 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:06.920 it's uh, it's been pretty wild. Uh. Yeah, Yeah, you've 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.040 been talking about the possibility of an American civil war 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.800 for a long time. Uh. I sure have converted me 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.479 into believing that was, you know, more possible than uh 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:23.160 we realized. And now I feel like a lot of 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.920 people are probably having that same realization. Yeah. It was 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.920 almost exactly a year ago that I put out the 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.560 episodes of it could Happen Here that talked about the 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.920 President potentially laying siege to American cities with US troops. 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.400 UM and uh, now now that appears to be happening. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.520 So I didn't want to be right about that one, 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.640 but you were about to tell me what we're talking 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.080 about today. So first off, this is a bonus episode, 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:51.680 and it's the second bonus episode we recorded. You'll get 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:53.800 that other episode at a later point. This is a 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.000 bonus episode because back thirty thousand years ago, my listeners 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.280 raised like sixteen thousand dollars to buy diapers for poor 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.120 women in Portland and Northern Oregon. UM, poor families, people 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.360 who couldn't afford diapers, which is awesome. It was very 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.480 nice of you guys funded the diaper bank in Portland 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:13.639 here for the rest of the year. So that's one 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:15.720 problem among everything else that a lot of people don't 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:17.320 have to worry about. And I so this is a 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.359 free episode, a third episode special for all of you. 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.919 UM and I really were re recording a separate one 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.600 because this this I wanted to do something timely what 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.600 with the riots. So we're going to talk about the 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.160 bastard who trains cops to kill That is the subject 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.760 of today's podcast. Yeah. Man, yeah, it's gonna be fun. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.840 Somebody's got to do it. I guess right. I not 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.280 somebody has to do it, but there must have been 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.280 somebody else. If someone is doing it, for sure, Yeah, 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.480 somebody is clearly doing it. I think we could probably 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.239 get by without someone doing this. But someone is doing 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.000 would be wonderful if somebody didn't do that, wouldn't it. Yeah, 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.839 but it it is definitely being done. Um. So yeah, 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.799 gonna talk about that today. Um yeah. So we're we're 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.120 all currently in the middle of a let's let's call 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.520 it a complicated moment in our the history of our 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.760 national relationship with our police. Uh. As I type this, 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:12.919 it's like less than twelve hours after a crowd of 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.079 activists breached, occupied, and burnt down a Minneapolis police station. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.520 Um and this is the first time anything like this 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.280 has occurred to my knowledge since the Battle of Athens, 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:24.800 Georgia in nineteen forty six. I think it was Georgia. 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.240 Um and that was like a bunch of veterans, very 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.480 different story. We'll talk about it at some point. Protests 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:31.960 in marches and by this time. You know that by 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:33.480 the time you hear this, maybe even riots are like 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:35.320 cropping out all over the country. People were shot in 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.400 Louisville last night, I think also in Phoenix. Like it's 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.800 just it's going down a former Kentucky and I can't 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:47.160 let you call Louisville. It's Louisville. This is what the 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.840 Civil War is gonna be over, Jack louis or louis Yeah, 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:56.440 Louisville Americans banded together to fight against the pronunciation of 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:58.680 Louisville or for it. I don't know how most people 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:04.040 will break down. Um, Kentucky and the time for Yeah, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.480 I apologize for interrupting. Uh no, no, what was a 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.840 very very serious and important thing you were saying. I 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.440 uh but yeah, I just couldn't do it without uh 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.000 you know my fellow Kentuckians inside my head getting very 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:23.839 yeah fair enough. So as we're all aware the this 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.520 this all started off like the kind of the spark 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.919 to all. This was the blatant and outrageous murder of 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.599 George Floyd by four Minneapolis police officers on funk. I 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:39.360 think like Monday of this, yeah, Jess, it feels like years. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.039 Uh good lord, um so Yeah, that was a spark, um, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:46.919 and it was the spark that caught all of this. 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.200 But that spark was only able to catch because over 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.599 the last several years, Americans have become increasingly aware of 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.320 how often black men in particular are murdered by police 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.920 under very shady circumstances. Minneapolis itself has a particularly full 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.679 modern history of this. In two thousand ten, David Smith, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.240 a bipolar black man, was a Minneapolis y m c 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.159 A acting bizarrely. Bizarrely is the term used to describe 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.719 it by people the y m c A folks uh ship. 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.760 Note here that Americans with untreated mental illnesses are sixteen 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:16.840 times as likely as other Americans to be killed by 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.800 the police. UM. So the police were called on Mr 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.960 Smith UH. They tased him multiple times and held him 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.760 down on the ground. One officer knelt on his back. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.320 He asphyxiated and died. UM. There were protests as a 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.480 result of this UH, and the cops were eventually cleared 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.440 of all wrongdoing. No one was punished. In two thousand fifteen, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.680 Jamark Clark, aged twenty four, was killed by police responding 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.960 to a call over domestic disturbance. They handcuffed him and 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:42.640 while he was on the ground, they shot him in 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.000 the head, claiming he had reached for one of their weapons. 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.680 Protesters occupied land around minneapolis Is Fourth Precinct, but the 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.880 officers were again cleared of all wrongdoing. In two thousand sixteen, 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.440 Philando Castile was stopped by Geronimo Jannez, a Minneapolis police officer, 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.320 case Stile was carrying a legal concealed firearm. He informed 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.000 officer Janez of this as he was required to do 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.039 so um without pausing to breathe, and As drew his 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.600 firearm and shot Castile to death in front of his girlfriend. Uh. 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.080 There were protests, you know, As was charged with manslaughter 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.080 and again found not guilty. I could go back further. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.800 These are not the only examples of this. In fact, 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.320 I was doing I was trying to research earlier. You know, 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.240 there's that that video going around with that guy with 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.239 the the umbrella that some people think was an agent 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:29.520 provocateur the auto zone UM in Minneapolis, and we were 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:31.080 trying to like lockdown who it was, and I was 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.840 looking into the officer people think it is, whose name 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.200 I won't use just because I it's very unclear if 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.680 that's actually the person. UM but that officer was involved 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.960 in another shooting of a black man that was really sketchy. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.760 Like you, you just keep finding these cases and like 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.000 so anyway, there's a ton of them in Minneapolis. Stop 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.960 for a second, the person. Like the theory is that 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.800 this person intentionally broke some windows to try and like 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.200 insight rioting. Yeah, that's that's the theory from some protesters. 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:02.640 I don't know how credible I think it is, like 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.960 to be honest, like other stuff was already burning at 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.120 that point. The video is weird. I'm not gonna it's 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.480 not worth getting into at this moment, Like I yeah, 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.360 so yeah, I don't think I have to establish for 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.239 anyone how often American police use force UH. In two thousand, 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.840 five ninety Americans were killed in mass shootings. UH. Nine 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.960 hundred and eighties seven Americans were killed by police officers. 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.200 That's one year. So every year, police officers killed about 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.080 twice as many people as die in mass shootings UM, 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.760 and that number is probably very low because most police 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.280 shootings actually are not reported in the way that you'd think. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.760 From the Columbine shooting UM to April two, nineteen, two 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.920 twenty three Americans were killed in school shootings. So in 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.480 the last twenty some years, two d twenty three Americans 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.280 killed in school shootings, which means that every year American 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.680 cops killed four times as many Americans as have died 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.760 in school shootings in generation. So that's a lot of 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.240 people being shot by cops, um, American police killed. The 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:02.280 argument that pops into my head, coming from conservative people 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:07.680 or just people who uh the Blue Lives matter set, 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.040 would be that, well, how many of those people were 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.760 trying to kill the cops um at the time when 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.320 they were shot. But I mean, there's so many other 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:25.200 countries where where the cops don't kill their citizens. Uh, 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:30.720 And those those cops aren't like you know, dying by 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.960 the in by droves. They are not they are not 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.760 were This episode is about why. So the answer to 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.680 that really is that most of these cops would say 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.160 that they were in fear of their life, but that 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.040 doesn't mean that they were actually their lives were actually 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.880 being threatened. Um. And this episode is about helps to 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.360 explain a big part of why so many of those 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.160 cops believe they were in fear for their lives or 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.719 we'll we'll say that it may not be lying, which 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.520 doesn't mean that it's okay, but it means that like 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.280 they they are being trained to fear for their life 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.440 and react with violence UM at a a a wildly 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.560 disproportionate rate. And this is an episode about like how 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.000 that happens. So one of the other things I want 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:13.679 to note before we get into the main subject of 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:15.840 the day is that the rate at which our police 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:20.040 kill citizens seems to be accelerating. Is currently on target 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.840 to match twenty nineteen for police killings of citizens, despite 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:24.520 the fact that a huge portion of the country has 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.160 been trapped inside for half the year so far. So 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.760 despite the fact that people are not out nearly as often, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.319 are not traveling, or not out in the street, or 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.520 not doing things nearly as often, UM, police are still 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.920 killing the same number of Americans, uh, which is striking 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.920 to me. That's that seems surprising because crime is to 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.480 got you gotta fight against all those people wielding lisol 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:52.480 and dangerous toilet paper packaging. Yeah. So the question, of 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.600 course that you were just asking is like, why are 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.280 why are things this way in America? UM? And the 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.760 answer that some of my more militant UH left is 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.040 for a would suggest probably boils down to all cops 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.400 are bastards, and um I'm not going to disagree with that, 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.760 but it's also not a satisfying answer because there are 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.319 things that make American police very different from police and 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.280 other countries. Um police and other countries have a lot 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.160 of the same problems as US cops, but kill a 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.040 hell of a lot fewer people per capita. Um So. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.040 There there is a reason that American cops are particularly aggressive, 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.880 and a big part of this reason is the special 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:30.280 training courses offered by Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, the bulletproof 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.880 mindset courses. Um SO. Officer Janez, who we talked about 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.280 earlier is the guy who killed Filando Castile. He had 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.480 attended a bulletproof mindset course in two thousand fourteen, two 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.640 years before he murdered Castile. More than a hundred police 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.600 departments in the US and thousands of officers, perhaps tens 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:50.200 of thousands, have taken Grossman's courses over more than twenty years. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.239 His teachings have made their way into mainstream Hollywood blockbusters. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.640 UM he is probably it is said that he's probably 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.400 trained more American cops than any other single person. Um 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.440 he is. He is the most influential single police trainer 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.559 in the United States. So that's who we're talking about today. UM, 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:11.440 so he must we have, Yeah, we're we're fortunate that 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.520 we have the entirety of the Bulletproof Mindset course book 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.480 that police in Lieutenant Colonel Grossman's class take. Um. And 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.400 we have this thanks to the same heroic journalists who 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.959 are currently documenting the everything that's happening in Minneapolis Unicorn Riot. 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.559 And if you haven't already and you have any spare money, 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:30.959 go donate some cash to Unicorn Riot right now. They're 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.320 the ones fucking They should get Appealitzer for how they've 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.079 covered this. But they also got a hand of a 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.120 hold of a scanned copy of this textbook which they 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.920 uploaded to the Internet for everyone to see. And it 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.520 includes like the notes that the cop taking the course 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:47.880 took during the course, which is really interesting because you 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.920 get to see what this guy. You know, this is 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.280 a course book that's like follow along notes. So we 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.440 don't know exactly what Grossman said in his lecture, although 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.600 I found other articles written about his lectures, so we've 0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:59.760 we've got some of that in here too. Um, but 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.680 we do know, like what this officer was taking out 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.520 of the course or what whoever was taking this course 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.320 was like, was like learning from it um and that 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.040 lets his piece together, like what this guy is saying 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.280 the police and what police are actually taking home from 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.400 it um. So to start us off, I want to 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.079 read how Lieutenant Colonel Grossman describes his own backstory in 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.720 the first page of his training document quote. Lieutenant Colonel 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.000 Dave Grossman retired from the Army after twenty three years 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.200 experience leading U S soldiers worldwide. Today, he is the 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.680 director of the Killology Research Group. He is an internationally 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.760 recognized scholar, soldier, speaker, and one of who is one 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.520 of the world's foremost experts in the field of human 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.480 aggression and the root cause cause of violence and violent crime. 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.319 Grossman is a former West Point Psychology professor, professor of 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.680 military science, and an Army ranger who has combined his 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.280 experiences to become the founder of a news field of 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:53.600 scientific endeavor which has been termed killology. That can't be real. 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.400 I mean, that's not I'd also like to point but 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.440 he does look exactly like what you would picture in 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:08.080 your head. Just it's it's certainly not a real field 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.200 of scientific endeavor. But he absolutely calls it killology, and 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:18.040 he somehow does that molology collapsing in on himself. Um. Now, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.720 Lieutenant Colonel Grossman has been nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.400 which sounds more impressive than it is because you can 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.520 nominate yourself. It's actually pretty easy to get nominated for 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.079 a Pulitzer price. Um. I don't know that he did. 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.040 I don't know who nominated him. His books are legitimately 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.199 very popular there in like part of the training for 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.959 the FBI Academy there in, like the Marine Corps Commandants 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.480 required reading list. On Killing and on Combat are the 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.320 two big books by Lieutenant Colonel Grossman. Now, based on 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.200 all of that very impressive biography Jack, based on his 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.840 military career and the fact that he started a scientific 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.920 discipline called killology, you might expect that Lieutenant Colonel Grossman 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.920 is a hardened combat veteran, right like the guy who 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:04.560 write a book on him. Nothing. Yeah, But interestingly enough, 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.160 he's seen less combat than me. Um. And for the record, 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.920 the combat I've seen is a tiny bit, and the 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:17.559 amount of combat that Lieutenant Colonel Grossman has experienced is none. Um. Now, 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.400 I want to make it clear that doesn't make him 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.320 unqualified to write books on the psychological impact of killing 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.360 or of combat any more than being born in the 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.960 nineteen eighties makes me unqualified to write about Hitler. Right, 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:29.480 you don't have to have killed anyone or have been 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.040 in combat to do a very good job of writing 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.960 about it, of doing a scholarly treatise of studying it. 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:36.760 You know, it could even be argued that someone who 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:38.640 has not been in combat is the right kind of 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:40.960 person to try to do a scholarly analysis of how 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.600 it impacts people. Um, I'm not saying that he has 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:49.120 indirectly killed thousands, So he has now, yeah, killed huge 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:53.920 numbers of people. He should take that into onto his 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.400 chest and then uh and then rewrite his course. Yeah, 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:00.400 so I'm I'm I'm not going to say that he 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.680 shouldn't be writing about killing at all. However, I will 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.160 say that he does quite a bit more than just 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.760 write academic treatises on combat. Um. And you can judge 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.200 for yourself whether or not his record kind of makes 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.800 what he's been doing unreasonable. Um. I'm gonna start off 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.320 by quoting from a write up of him in Men's 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.560 Journal that kind of talks about, Um, what he believes. 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.160 Quote on combat is probably which is his most famous 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.400 book is probably best known for his assertion that people 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.920 can be divided into three groups, sheep, wolves, and sheep dogs. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.200 And it's the sheep dogs, blessed with the gift of aggression, 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.280 as he says, who are responsible for protecting the sheep 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.240 from the wolves. The analogy has been adopted by various 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.640 military and gun rights groups, and Clint Eastwood's American Sniper, 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.160 the father of Navy Seal Chris Kyle, gives a fictional 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.760 Din Dinner table lecture about sheep dogs taken directly from 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:55.240 Grossman's writings. So this guy's attitude is very influential. Um 0:15:55.400 --> 0:16:00.440 and it. Yeah. Uh so that's is the small artist 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.240 and most accurate views of humanity that start out with 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.840 the phrase, now there are three types of people. Yeah, 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:13.200 you can categorize three groups. I am going to serious 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:18.720 academic m hm is I I am? I am famous 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.200 Jack from my assertion that all of humanity can be 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.200 divided into two groups, people who are literally Adolf Hitler 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:30.960 and everyone else, which is just impossible to argue meaningless. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:36.200 Yeah yeah, um yeah, So as as that might key, 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.800 you went on that paragraph Grossman is more of a 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.760 pop psychologist than an academic. He tries to portray himself 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.800 as a scientist, but he is not approaching us scientifically. 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.280 You can't scientifically lump people into sheep, dogs, sheep and wolves. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.360 It's just not the way things Work's famous theory of 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:58.160 the sheep, dog, sheep and wolves. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.080 So I've heard him compare aired to like a right 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.960 wing militant Malcolm Gladwell, and that's not far off. His 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.800 research is distinctly unscientific, for on combat. He gathered his 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.800 information via what he called an interactive feedback loop, which 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:15.920 is what everyone else would just call interviewing a bunch 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.080 of guys who have been in combat, which is fine, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.879 but like, it's not an interact. You're you're talking to 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.760 people with relevant experiences. Just just say you interact people feedback. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.040 Fucking christ dude. Um. So he says he interviewed a 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.040 thousand soldiers and cops using no particular and and then 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.639 took what he had learned from them, using no particular 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.600 scientific method or rigor, and boiled it down into his 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.720 book about killing and books about killing in combat. Now, again, 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:43.679 it's not necessarily a bad thing to talk to a 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.040 thousand people who have been in combat or killed people 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.199 and write a book about it. But the way he 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.600 has done it is not science. Like there's no control group, 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.760 there's no attempt, there's no attempt to rigorously actually learn 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.119 anything from this. He's just sort of talking to people 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.440 and giving you what he thinks about it, which is 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.520 again fine, but not science. Yeah. Question when was this 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:07.639 book published or released? It like the nineties? Yeah, like 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.639 the nineties. I think eighties or nineties. Yeah. Um, he 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.240 most of the books a couple of decades ago. My 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:19.680 gym teacher was given like eight years and like forced 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.800 to write a book and just like keep writing what 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.359 he thought. Yeah about It's interesting that you mentioned that, Jack, 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.520 because Lieutenant Colonel Grossman was your gym teacher and his 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.959 most famous quote is that you were not great at 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.600 the hundred meter dash. He's really Do you like the 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:40.760 implication that I still have a gym teacher. I still 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.400 go to Jim class to be humiliated by my peers. 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.119 It is a weird thing that I Heart radio requires 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:52.000 of us. Um, no other radio company mandates gym teachers 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.000 for their on air hosts. But what can you do? Yeah, 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.360 not much, I'll tell you that. In one interview, when 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.959 Lieutenant Colonel Grossman was asked for his qualifications, he cited 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.119 the quote body of information I've crafted over the years 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.160 and his ability to speak from the heart, noting that 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.080 I truly am one of the best people on the 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.680 planet in a couple of areas, whether it's preparation for 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.240 a life and death event or walking the sheep dog path, 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.280 I really feel like I'm the pre eminent authority. He 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.840 is the pre eminent authority on the thing he invented, 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.720 the jumble of words he just slammed together. And again, 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.160 a huge number of the police in Minneapolis right now, 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.119 if not the vast majority of them, have taken this 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:34.520 guy's course. So keep that in mind as we And also, 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:36.560 if you wind up in the streets in the next 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.120 couple of days, very good chance your cops too took 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:47.280 this guy's course. Yeah yeah, um So. That same Men's 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.560 Journal article also noted quote. Since leaving the army, Grossman 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.439 frequently introduces himself as a reserve cop. Parentheses he's the 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.760 deputy reserve coroner for St. Clair County, Illinois, and he 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.320 notes I think a lot more like a cop today 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:06.000 than I do, like a soldier. So just to set this, 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:11.639 coroner would be a coroner who who is the assistant 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:17.320 to the backup coroner in case, Yeah, you might recognize 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:22.600 that is not really a cop. Somebody who, in an 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:28.520 unlikely chain of circumstances and events, uh, would maybe have 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.320 to see a dead person. I mean, ironically, the chain 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.760 of circumstances and events right now, in which, like the 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:40.280 police in multiple Yeah, he might wind up being called 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.840 into active duty because in part because of the uprising 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:45.920 that he has helped to spark. So that's he might 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.240 get his wish. He might finally get to be on combat. 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.320 I don't know. Um, you know who's not a cop? 0:20:52.600 --> 0:21:02.119 The products and services that support this podcast. We're back, okay, 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.879 So let's see what Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, non combat 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.320 veteran who has never killed anyone and not a cop, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.680 teaches cops about combat and killing. I'm sure it's nuanced 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.320 and accurate. Uh. So the training program opens with and 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.760 this is again the Bulletproof mindset opens with a graph 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.680 on rates of violent crime, murder, and imprisonment to make 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.879 the case that the first two have dropped steadily as 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:25.680 the first one has gone up, So he's pointing out 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.800 to police that, like, the more people you arrest arrest, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.440 the less crime there is in the United States. UM. Now, 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:36.680 these graphs are not technically wrong. Incarceration has broadly gone 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.800 up as crime has gone down. But just graphing those 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:41.880 three things together leaves out a number of other things 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:43.639 that have had an impact on the rate of violent crimes, 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:48.119 such as let exposure, internet access, availability of social programs, 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.679 average level of educational attainment, income inequality, et cetera. The 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.600 point of this graph is to take to show that 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.920 taking dirt bags off the streets is to make is 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.600 what makes society safer. Um And unfortunately, people who actually 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.760 study the impact of incarceration on crime disagree with Lieutenant 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:05.520 Colonel Grossman on this. And I'm gonna quote from the 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.920 Brennan Center for Justice. Now, between two thousands seven and 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.680 two seventeen thirty four states reduced both imprisonment and crime 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:15.080 rates simultaneously, showing clearly that reducing mass incarceration does not 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.679 come at the cost of public safety. For sources and 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.160