1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:08,239
Speaker 1: M what's overthrowing the government? My everyone? Uh, this is

2
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards, the show about bad people, UH,

3
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 1: recording right now in the middle of what's what's rapidly

4
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: turning into a nationwide insurrection against uh legally constituted power. Uh.

5
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,640
Speaker 1: And my guest, as with all insurrections, is the inimitable

6
00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 1: Jack O'Brien. Yeah, what's up, guys. How quite a year Jack. Yeah.

7
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 1: As you can see, I'm standing in from the flaming

8
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,920
Speaker 1: police headquarters. I have a sword, my shirt is tied

9
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 1: around my head, uh, and I'm covered in blood. But yeah,

10
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: I'm I am really you know Jack, when you got

11
00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: that full chest fuck the police tattoo last year, I said,

12
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 1: when are you going to have a chance to show

13
00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 1: that off? And I, by god I was wrong. Yeah, man,

14
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,920
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's been pretty wild. Uh. Yeah, Yeah, you've

15
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,040
Speaker 1: been talking about the possibility of an American civil war

16
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: for a long time. Uh. I sure have converted me

17
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,479
Speaker 1: into believing that was, you know, more possible than uh

18
00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:23,160
Speaker 1: we realized. And now I feel like a lot of

19
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,920
Speaker 1: people are probably having that same realization. Yeah. It was

20
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,920
Speaker 1: almost exactly a year ago that I put out the

21
00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 1: episodes of it could Happen Here that talked about the

22
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,920
Speaker 1: President potentially laying siege to American cities with US troops.

23
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,400
Speaker 1: UM and uh, now now that appears to be happening.

24
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 1: So I didn't want to be right about that one,

25
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 1: but you were about to tell me what we're talking

26
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 1: about today. So first off, this is a bonus episode,

27
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: and it's the second bonus episode we recorded. You'll get

28
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,800
Speaker 1: that other episode at a later point. This is a

29
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 1: bonus episode because back thirty thousand years ago, my listeners

30
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 1: raised like sixteen thousand dollars to buy diapers for poor

31
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 1: women in Portland and Northern Oregon. UM, poor families, people

32
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,360
Speaker 1: who couldn't afford diapers, which is awesome. It was very

33
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,480
Speaker 1: nice of you guys funded the diaper bank in Portland

34
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,639
Speaker 1: here for the rest of the year. So that's one

35
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,720
Speaker 1: problem among everything else that a lot of people don't

36
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: have to worry about. And I so this is a

37
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,359
Speaker 1: free episode, a third episode special for all of you.

38
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,919
Speaker 1: UM and I really were re recording a separate one

39
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 1: because this this I wanted to do something timely what

40
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: with the riots. So we're going to talk about the

41
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 1: bastard who trains cops to kill That is the subject

42
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 1: of today's podcast. Yeah. Man, yeah, it's gonna be fun.

43
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,840
Speaker 1: Somebody's got to do it. I guess right. I not

44
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 1: somebody has to do it, but there must have been

45
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 1: somebody else. If someone is doing it, for sure, Yeah,

46
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 1: somebody is clearly doing it. I think we could probably

47
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,239
Speaker 1: get by without someone doing this. But someone is doing

48
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,000
Speaker 1: would be wonderful if somebody didn't do that, wouldn't it. Yeah,

49
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,839
Speaker 1: but it it is definitely being done. Um. So yeah,

50
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,799
Speaker 1: gonna talk about that today. Um yeah. So we're we're

51
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 1: all currently in the middle of a let's let's call

52
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,520
Speaker 1: it a complicated moment in our the history of our

53
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,760
Speaker 1: national relationship with our police. Uh. As I type this,

54
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:12,919
Speaker 1: it's like less than twelve hours after a crowd of

55
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,079
Speaker 1: activists breached, occupied, and burnt down a Minneapolis police station.

56
00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,520
Speaker 1: Um and this is the first time anything like this

57
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,280
Speaker 1: has occurred to my knowledge since the Battle of Athens,

58
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 1: Georgia in nineteen forty six. I think it was Georgia.

59
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,240
Speaker 1: Um and that was like a bunch of veterans, very

60
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 1: different story. We'll talk about it at some point. Protests

61
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 1: in marches and by this time. You know that by

62
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 1: the time you hear this, maybe even riots are like

63
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,320
Speaker 1: cropping out all over the country. People were shot in

64
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 1: Louisville last night, I think also in Phoenix. Like it's

65
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 1: just it's going down a former Kentucky and I can't

66
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 1: let you call Louisville. It's Louisville. This is what the

67
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 1: Civil War is gonna be over, Jack louis or louis Yeah,

68
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,440
Speaker 1: Louisville Americans banded together to fight against the pronunciation of

69
00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 1: Louisville or for it. I don't know how most people

70
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 1: will break down. Um, Kentucky and the time for Yeah,

71
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 1: I apologize for interrupting. Uh no, no, what was a

72
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: very very serious and important thing you were saying. I

73
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 1: uh but yeah, I just couldn't do it without uh

74
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,000
Speaker 1: you know my fellow Kentuckians inside my head getting very

75
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 1: yeah fair enough. So as we're all aware the this

76
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 1: this all started off like the kind of the spark

77
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,919
Speaker 1: to all. This was the blatant and outrageous murder of

78
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,599
Speaker 1: George Floyd by four Minneapolis police officers on funk. I

79
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:39,360
Speaker 1: think like Monday of this, yeah, Jess, it feels like years.

80
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,039
Speaker 1: Uh good lord, um so Yeah, that was a spark, um,

81
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:46,919
Speaker 1: and it was the spark that caught all of this.

82
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 1: But that spark was only able to catch because over

83
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,599
Speaker 1: the last several years, Americans have become increasingly aware of

84
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 1: how often black men in particular are murdered by police

85
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 1: under very shady circumstances. Minneapolis itself has a particularly full

86
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,679
Speaker 1: modern history of this. In two thousand ten, David Smith,

87
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,240
Speaker 1: a bipolar black man, was a Minneapolis y m c

88
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,159
Speaker 1: A acting bizarrely. Bizarrely is the term used to describe

89
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,719
Speaker 1: it by people the y m c A folks uh ship.

90
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: Note here that Americans with untreated mental illnesses are sixteen

91
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,840
Speaker 1: times as likely as other Americans to be killed by

92
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 1: the police. UM. So the police were called on Mr

93
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,960
Speaker 1: Smith UH. They tased him multiple times and held him

94
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 1: down on the ground. One officer knelt on his back.

95
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 1: He asphyxiated and died. UM. There were protests as a

96
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,480
Speaker 1: result of this UH, and the cops were eventually cleared

97
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,440
Speaker 1: of all wrongdoing. No one was punished. In two thousand fifteen,

98
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 1: Jamark Clark, aged twenty four, was killed by police responding

99
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 1: to a call over domestic disturbance. They handcuffed him and

100
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 1: while he was on the ground, they shot him in

101
00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: the head, claiming he had reached for one of their weapons.

102
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 1: Protesters occupied land around minneapolis Is Fourth Precinct, but the

103
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 1: officers were again cleared of all wrongdoing. In two thousand sixteen,

104
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 1: Philando Castile was stopped by Geronimo Jannez, a Minneapolis police officer,

105
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,320
Speaker 1: case Stile was carrying a legal concealed firearm. He informed

106
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,000
Speaker 1: officer Janez of this as he was required to do

107
00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,039
Speaker 1: so um without pausing to breathe, and As drew his

108
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,600
Speaker 1: firearm and shot Castile to death in front of his girlfriend. Uh.

109
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 1: There were protests, you know, As was charged with manslaughter

110
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 1: and again found not guilty. I could go back further.

111
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 1: These are not the only examples of this. In fact,

112
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,320
Speaker 1: I was doing I was trying to research earlier. You know,

113
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 1: there's that that video going around with that guy with

114
00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,239
Speaker 1: the the umbrella that some people think was an agent

115
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 1: provocateur the auto zone UM in Minneapolis, and we were

116
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 1: trying to like lockdown who it was, and I was

117
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 1: looking into the officer people think it is, whose name

118
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 1: I won't use just because I it's very unclear if

119
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,680
Speaker 1: that's actually the person. UM but that officer was involved

120
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,960
Speaker 1: in another shooting of a black man that was really sketchy.

121
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,760
Speaker 1: Like you, you just keep finding these cases and like

122
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 1: so anyway, there's a ton of them in Minneapolis. Stop

123
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 1: for a second, the person. Like the theory is that

124
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 1: this person intentionally broke some windows to try and like

125
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,200
Speaker 1: insight rioting. Yeah, that's that's the theory from some protesters.

126
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: I don't know how credible I think it is, like

127
00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,960
Speaker 1: to be honest, like other stuff was already burning at

128
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 1: that point. The video is weird. I'm not gonna it's

129
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 1: not worth getting into at this moment, Like I yeah,

130
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 1: so yeah, I don't think I have to establish for

131
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,239
Speaker 1: anyone how often American police use force UH. In two thousand,

132
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 1: five ninety Americans were killed in mass shootings. UH. Nine

133
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 1: hundred and eighties seven Americans were killed by police officers.

134
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,200
Speaker 1: That's one year. So every year, police officers killed about

135
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 1: twice as many people as die in mass shootings UM,

136
00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 1: and that number is probably very low because most police

137
00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 1: shootings actually are not reported in the way that you'd think.

138
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 1: From the Columbine shooting UM to April two, nineteen, two

139
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 1: twenty three Americans were killed in school shootings. So in

140
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: the last twenty some years, two d twenty three Americans

141
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 1: killed in school shootings, which means that every year American

142
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 1: cops killed four times as many Americans as have died

143
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 1: in school shootings in generation. So that's a lot of

144
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 1: people being shot by cops, um, American police killed. The

145
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,280
Speaker 1: argument that pops into my head, coming from conservative people

146
00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,680
Speaker 1: or just people who uh the Blue Lives matter set,

147
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,040
Speaker 1: would be that, well, how many of those people were

148
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: trying to kill the cops um at the time when

149
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,320
Speaker 1: they were shot. But I mean, there's so many other

150
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 1: countries where where the cops don't kill their citizens. Uh,

151
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,720
Speaker 1: And those those cops aren't like you know, dying by

152
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,960
Speaker 1: the in by droves. They are not they are not

153
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 1: were This episode is about why. So the answer to

154
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,680
Speaker 1: that really is that most of these cops would say

155
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 1: that they were in fear of their life, but that

156
00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they were actually their lives were actually

157
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,880
Speaker 1: being threatened. Um. And this episode is about helps to

158
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,360
Speaker 1: explain a big part of why so many of those

159
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 1: cops believe they were in fear for their lives or

160
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,719
Speaker 1: we'll we'll say that it may not be lying, which

161
00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's okay, but it means that like

162
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 1: they they are being trained to fear for their life

163
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 1: and react with violence UM at a a a wildly

164
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,560
Speaker 1: disproportionate rate. And this is an episode about like how

165
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 1: that happens. So one of the other things I want

166
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,679
Speaker 1: to note before we get into the main subject of

167
00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 1: the day is that the rate at which our police

168
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,040
Speaker 1: kill citizens seems to be accelerating. Is currently on target

169
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 1: to match twenty nineteen for police killings of citizens, despite

170
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 1: the fact that a huge portion of the country has

171
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 1: been trapped inside for half the year so far. So

172
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 1: despite the fact that people are not out nearly as often,

173
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,319
Speaker 1: are not traveling, or not out in the street, or

174
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,520
Speaker 1: not doing things nearly as often, UM, police are still

175
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,920
Speaker 1: killing the same number of Americans, uh, which is striking

176
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 1: to me. That's that seems surprising because crime is to

177
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 1: got you gotta fight against all those people wielding lisol

178
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 1: and dangerous toilet paper packaging. Yeah. So the question, of

179
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 1: course that you were just asking is like, why are

180
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,280
Speaker 1: why are things this way in America? UM? And the

181
00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,760
Speaker 1: answer that some of my more militant UH left is

182
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 1: for a would suggest probably boils down to all cops

183
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,400
Speaker 1: are bastards, and um I'm not going to disagree with that,

184
00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 1: but it's also not a satisfying answer because there are

185
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,319
Speaker 1: things that make American police very different from police and

186
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 1: other countries. Um police and other countries have a lot

187
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 1: of the same problems as US cops, but kill a

188
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 1: hell of a lot fewer people per capita. Um So.

189
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,040
Speaker 1: There there is a reason that American cops are particularly aggressive,

190
00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,880
Speaker 1: and a big part of this reason is the special

191
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 1: training courses offered by Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, the bulletproof

192
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 1: mindset courses. Um SO. Officer Janez, who we talked about

193
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 1: earlier is the guy who killed Filando Castile. He had

194
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,480
Speaker 1: attended a bulletproof mindset course in two thousand fourteen, two

195
00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 1: years before he murdered Castile. More than a hundred police

196
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 1: departments in the US and thousands of officers, perhaps tens

197
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,200
Speaker 1: of thousands, have taken Grossman's courses over more than twenty years.

198
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,239
Speaker 1: His teachings have made their way into mainstream Hollywood blockbusters.

199
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,640
Speaker 1: UM he is probably it is said that he's probably

200
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 1: trained more American cops than any other single person. Um

201
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,440
Speaker 1: he is. He is the most influential single police trainer

202
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,559
Speaker 1: in the United States. So that's who we're talking about today. UM,

203
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,440
Speaker 1: so he must we have, Yeah, we're we're fortunate that

204
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,520
Speaker 1: we have the entirety of the Bulletproof Mindset course book

205
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,480
Speaker 1: that police in Lieutenant Colonel Grossman's class take. Um. And

206
00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 1: we have this thanks to the same heroic journalists who

207
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,959
Speaker 1: are currently documenting the everything that's happening in Minneapolis Unicorn Riot.

208
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,559
Speaker 1: And if you haven't already and you have any spare money,

209
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,959
Speaker 1: go donate some cash to Unicorn Riot right now. They're

210
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,320
Speaker 1: the ones fucking They should get Appealitzer for how they've

211
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,079
Speaker 1: covered this. But they also got a hand of a

212
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 1: hold of a scanned copy of this textbook which they

213
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 1: uploaded to the Internet for everyone to see. And it

214
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 1: includes like the notes that the cop taking the course

215
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,880
Speaker 1: took during the course, which is really interesting because you

216
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,920
Speaker 1: get to see what this guy. You know, this is

217
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,280
Speaker 1: a course book that's like follow along notes. So we

218
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,440
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what Grossman said in his lecture, although

219
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 1: I found other articles written about his lectures, so we've

220
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 1: we've got some of that in here too. Um, but

221
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,680
Speaker 1: we do know, like what this officer was taking out

222
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 1: of the course or what whoever was taking this course

223
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,320
Speaker 1: was like, was like learning from it um and that

224
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 1: lets his piece together, like what this guy is saying

225
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,280
Speaker 1: the police and what police are actually taking home from

226
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 1: it um. So to start us off, I want to

227
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,079
Speaker 1: read how Lieutenant Colonel Grossman describes his own backstory in

228
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 1: the first page of his training document quote. Lieutenant Colonel

229
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,000
Speaker 1: Dave Grossman retired from the Army after twenty three years

230
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 1: experience leading U S soldiers worldwide. Today, he is the

231
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,680
Speaker 1: director of the Killology Research Group. He is an internationally

232
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 1: recognized scholar, soldier, speaker, and one of who is one

233
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 1: of the world's foremost experts in the field of human

234
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 1: aggression and the root cause cause of violence and violent crime.

235
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,319
Speaker 1: Grossman is a former West Point Psychology professor, professor of

236
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,680
Speaker 1: military science, and an Army ranger who has combined his

237
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,280
Speaker 1: experiences to become the founder of a news field of

238
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 1: scientific endeavor which has been termed killology. That can't be real.

239
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,400
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not I'd also like to point but

240
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,440
Speaker 1: he does look exactly like what you would picture in

241
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 1: your head. Just it's it's certainly not a real field

242
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,200
Speaker 1: of scientific endeavor. But he absolutely calls it killology, and

243
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 1: he somehow does that molology collapsing in on himself. Um. Now,

244
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,720
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Colonel Grossman has been nominated for a Pulitzer Prize,

245
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 1: which sounds more impressive than it is because you can

246
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 1: nominate yourself. It's actually pretty easy to get nominated for

247
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,079
Speaker 1: a Pulitzer price. Um. I don't know that he did.

248
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,040
Speaker 1: I don't know who nominated him. His books are legitimately

249
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,199
Speaker 1: very popular there in like part of the training for

250
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,959
Speaker 1: the FBI Academy there in, like the Marine Corps Commandants

251
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: required reading list. On Killing and on Combat are the

252
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,320
Speaker 1: two big books by Lieutenant Colonel Grossman. Now, based on

253
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,200
Speaker 1: all of that very impressive biography Jack, based on his

254
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,840
Speaker 1: military career and the fact that he started a scientific

255
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 1: discipline called killology, you might expect that Lieutenant Colonel Grossman

256
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,920
Speaker 1: is a hardened combat veteran, right like the guy who

257
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 1: write a book on him. Nothing. Yeah, But interestingly enough,

258
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: he's seen less combat than me. Um. And for the record,

259
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: the combat I've seen is a tiny bit, and the

260
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 1: amount of combat that Lieutenant Colonel Grossman has experienced is none. Um. Now,

261
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 1: I want to make it clear that doesn't make him

262
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,320
Speaker 1: unqualified to write books on the psychological impact of killing

263
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: or of combat any more than being born in the

264
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties makes me unqualified to write about Hitler. Right,

265
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:29,480
Speaker 1: you don't have to have killed anyone or have been

266
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,040
Speaker 1: in combat to do a very good job of writing

267
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 1: about it, of doing a scholarly treatise of studying it.

268
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 1: You know, it could even be argued that someone who

269
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 1: has not been in combat is the right kind of

270
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 1: person to try to do a scholarly analysis of how

271
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 1: it impacts people. Um, I'm not saying that he has

272
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,120
Speaker 1: indirectly killed thousands, So he has now, yeah, killed huge

273
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,920
Speaker 1: numbers of people. He should take that into onto his

274
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,400
Speaker 1: chest and then uh and then rewrite his course. Yeah,

275
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 1: so I'm I'm I'm not going to say that he

276
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 1: shouldn't be writing about killing at all. However, I will

277
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 1: say that he does quite a bit more than just

278
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 1: write academic treatises on combat. Um. And you can judge

279
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,200
Speaker 1: for yourself whether or not his record kind of makes

280
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,800
Speaker 1: what he's been doing unreasonable. Um. I'm gonna start off

281
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,320
Speaker 1: by quoting from a write up of him in Men's

282
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 1: Journal that kind of talks about, Um, what he believes.

283
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 1: Quote on combat is probably which is his most famous

284
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,400
Speaker 1: book is probably best known for his assertion that people

285
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 1: can be divided into three groups, sheep, wolves, and sheep dogs.

286
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 1: And it's the sheep dogs, blessed with the gift of aggression,

287
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 1: as he says, who are responsible for protecting the sheep

288
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: from the wolves. The analogy has been adopted by various

289
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,640
Speaker 1: military and gun rights groups, and Clint Eastwood's American Sniper,

290
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 1: the father of Navy Seal Chris Kyle, gives a fictional

291
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,760
Speaker 1: Din Dinner table lecture about sheep dogs taken directly from

292
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 1: Grossman's writings. So this guy's attitude is very influential. Um

293
00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,440
Speaker 1: and it. Yeah. Uh so that's is the small artist

294
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 1: and most accurate views of humanity that start out with

295
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 1: the phrase, now there are three types of people. Yeah,

296
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 1: you can categorize three groups. I am going to serious

297
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 1: academic m hm is I I am? I am famous

298
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: Jack from my assertion that all of humanity can be

299
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,200
Speaker 1: divided into two groups, people who are literally Adolf Hitler

300
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,960
Speaker 1: and everyone else, which is just impossible to argue meaningless.

301
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um yeah, So as as that might key,

302
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: you went on that paragraph Grossman is more of a

303
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 1: pop psychologist than an academic. He tries to portray himself

304
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 1: as a scientist, but he is not approaching us scientifically.

305
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,280
Speaker 1: You can't scientifically lump people into sheep, dogs, sheep and wolves.

306
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 1: It's just not the way things Work's famous theory of

307
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 1: the sheep, dog, sheep and wolves. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

308
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: So I've heard him compare aired to like a right

309
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,960
Speaker 1: wing militant Malcolm Gladwell, and that's not far off. His

310
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,800
Speaker 1: research is distinctly unscientific, for on combat. He gathered his

311
00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 1: information via what he called an interactive feedback loop, which

312
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 1: is what everyone else would just call interviewing a bunch

313
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,080
Speaker 1: of guys who have been in combat, which is fine,

314
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,879
Speaker 1: but like, it's not an interact. You're you're talking to

315
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: people with relevant experiences. Just just say you interact people feedback.

316
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,040
Speaker 1: Fucking christ dude. Um. So he says he interviewed a

317
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 1: thousand soldiers and cops using no particular and and then

318
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,639
Speaker 1: took what he had learned from them, using no particular

319
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 1: scientific method or rigor, and boiled it down into his

320
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 1: book about killing and books about killing in combat. Now, again,

321
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,679
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily a bad thing to talk to a

322
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,040
Speaker 1: thousand people who have been in combat or killed people

323
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,199
Speaker 1: and write a book about it. But the way he

324
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,600
Speaker 1: has done it is not science. Like there's no control group,

325
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 1: there's no attempt, there's no attempt to rigorously actually learn

326
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,119
Speaker 1: anything from this. He's just sort of talking to people

327
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,440
Speaker 1: and giving you what he thinks about it, which is

328
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 1: again fine, but not science. Yeah. Question when was this

329
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 1: book published or released? It like the nineties? Yeah, like

330
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,639
Speaker 1: the nineties. I think eighties or nineties. Yeah. Um, he

331
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 1: most of the books a couple of decades ago. My

332
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:19,680
Speaker 1: gym teacher was given like eight years and like forced

333
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 1: to write a book and just like keep writing what

334
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 1: he thought. Yeah about It's interesting that you mentioned that, Jack,

335
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,520
Speaker 1: because Lieutenant Colonel Grossman was your gym teacher and his

336
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,959
Speaker 1: most famous quote is that you were not great at

337
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 1: the hundred meter dash. He's really Do you like the

338
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 1: implication that I still have a gym teacher. I still

339
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,400
Speaker 1: go to Jim class to be humiliated by my peers.

340
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,119
Speaker 1: It is a weird thing that I Heart radio requires

341
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 1: of us. Um, no other radio company mandates gym teachers

342
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 1: for their on air hosts. But what can you do? Yeah,

343
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 1: not much, I'll tell you that. In one interview, when

344
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,959
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Colonel Grossman was asked for his qualifications, he cited

345
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 1: the quote body of information I've crafted over the years

346
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 1: and his ability to speak from the heart, noting that

347
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: I truly am one of the best people on the

348
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 1: planet in a couple of areas, whether it's preparation for

349
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 1: a life and death event or walking the sheep dog path,

350
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 1: I really feel like I'm the pre eminent authority. He

351
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: is the pre eminent authority on the thing he invented,

352
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 1: the jumble of words he just slammed together. And again,

353
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,160
Speaker 1: a huge number of the police in Minneapolis right now,

354
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,119
Speaker 1: if not the vast majority of them, have taken this

355
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: guy's course. So keep that in mind as we And also,

356
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: if you wind up in the streets in the next

357
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 1: couple of days, very good chance your cops too took

358
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:47,280
Speaker 1: this guy's course. Yeah yeah, um So. That same Men's

359
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: Journal article also noted quote. Since leaving the army, Grossman

360
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,439
Speaker 1: frequently introduces himself as a reserve cop. Parentheses he's the

361
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 1: deputy reserve coroner for St. Clair County, Illinois, and he

362
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 1: notes I think a lot more like a cop today

363
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: than I do, like a soldier. So just to set this,

364
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 1: coroner would be a coroner who who is the assistant

365
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 1: to the backup coroner in case, Yeah, you might recognize

366
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 1: that is not really a cop. Somebody who, in an

367
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: unlikely chain of circumstances and events, uh, would maybe have

368
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: to see a dead person. I mean, ironically, the chain

369
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: of circumstances and events right now, in which, like the

370
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: police in multiple Yeah, he might wind up being called

371
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 1: into active duty because in part because of the uprising

372
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 1: that he has helped to spark. So that's he might

373
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: get his wish. He might finally get to be on combat.

374
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, you know who's not a cop?

375
00:20:52,600 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: The products and services that support this podcast. We're back, okay,

376
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 1: So let's see what Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, non combat

377
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 1: veteran who has never killed anyone and not a cop,

378
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 1: teaches cops about combat and killing. I'm sure it's nuanced

379
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: and accurate. Uh. So the training program opens with and

380
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: this is again the Bulletproof mindset opens with a graph

381
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 1: on rates of violent crime, murder, and imprisonment to make

382
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,879
Speaker 1: the case that the first two have dropped steadily as

383
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 1: the first one has gone up, So he's pointing out

384
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 1: to police that, like, the more people you arrest arrest,

385
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 1: the less crime there is in the United States. UM. Now,

386
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: these graphs are not technically wrong. Incarceration has broadly gone

387
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: up as crime has gone down. But just graphing those

388
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 1: three things together leaves out a number of other things

389
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 1: that have had an impact on the rate of violent crimes,

390
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: such as let exposure, internet access, availability of social programs,

391
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 1: average level of educational attainment, income inequality, et cetera. The

392
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: point of this graph is to take to show that

393
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 1: taking dirt bags off the streets is to make is

394
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: what makes society safer. Um And unfortunately, people who actually

395
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: study the impact of incarceration on crime disagree with Lieutenant

396
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: Colonel Grossman on this. And I'm gonna quote from the

397
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: Brennan Center for Justice. Now, between two thousands seven and

398
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 1: two seventeen thirty four states reduced both imprisonment and crime

399
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: rates simultaneously, showing clearly that reducing mass incarceration does not

400
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: come at the cost of public safety. For sources and

401
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 1: definitions and credit. The total number of sentenced individuals held

402
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 1: in state prisons across the US also decreased by six

403
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: percent over the same decade. The Very Institute of Justice

404
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: has also conducted a study looking at incarceration and crime

405
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: since two thousand. They found that between seventy five and

406
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: a percent of the drop in crime we've experienced since

407
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties came as a result of factors

408
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: other than incarceration, like increased graduation rates, an aging population,

409
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 1: and increased consumer confidence. But Grossman's course waits waste no

410
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: time in moving on from that to a series of

411
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: pages on Indiana University brain scanned research. These pages have large,

412
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 1: blurry images of scanned brains purporting to show increased aggression

413
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: in kids due to violent TV movies and video games.

414
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: He notes, quote media violence makes violent brains. Violent TV,

415
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 1: movie and video game exposure head an effect on normal

416
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: kids the same as children with documented diagnosed aggressive behavior disorder. Um,

417
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: so yeah, this is the he's saying so wrong. Yeah,

418
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: it's just like you can find something incorrect and uh

419
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: that will justify I don't know. It almost feels like

420
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: if you've ever like been around a bully who really

421
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: wants to beat you up, and like there's just like

422
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: no arguing them out of it, like that, it just

423
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: feels like that he's just like finding his anger and uh,

424
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: you know, excuses to use uh violence are going to

425
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 1: find a way. Yeah, it's cool. It's Fox News for cops.

426
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. And it's it's it's like Fox News.

427
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: It has I won't say completely, but very heavily helped

428
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 1: craft the my set that cops walk onto the street

429
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: with today. So UM in terms of when it comes

430
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: to this, like study on video games and violent movies

431
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: and stuff affecting adolescent brains, the specific studies referencings from

432
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, and it did, in fact show that

433
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: ten hours of violent video games in one week showed

434
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: reduced levels of activity and regions of their frontal lobes

435
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: responsible for cognitive function and emotional control. UM. And there

436
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: is some evidence, a decent amount, that suggests that violent

437
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: media can at least temporarily increase increase aggression. But aggression

438
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: is not violence, it's just the feeling of aggression. It's

439
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: an emotional response. In two thousand nineteen, a group of

440
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: researchers carried out an enormous meta analysis, which is an

441
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: analysis of basically all the studies on this, and concluded

442
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: that the increased rate of aggression from video games was present,

443
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: but small at best. Um, and again no evidence that

444
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: it has any kind of meaningful impact on violence or

445
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: violent crime. They were testing people right after they played

446
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: the game. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and it makes

447
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: you feel more aggressive. Um, which isn't really that surprising,

448
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: to be honest, but whatever. So, Lieutenant Colonel Grossman has

449
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: a lot invested in the idea that video games and

450
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: gory movies have turned our children into a nation of slavering,

451
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: blood hungry monsters. He wrote a book titled Stop Teaching

452
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 1: Our Kids to Kill to cash in on the Columbine massacre.

453
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: During the Bulletproof mindset training classes, he often tells his

454
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: students that, yeah, exactly, he's one of those guys. He

455
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: often tells his students that denying the link between video

456
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: games and violence will someday quote be viewed as the

457
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: moral equivalent of Holocaust deniers. Uh huh, Yeah, for sure.

458
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: He probably hangs out with a bunch of them. Yeah,

459
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure he knows a few. Um. I think they're

460
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 1: more just Holocaust questionnaires, Jack, They're just they're just asking questions.

461
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: They're just asking questions here about the Holocaust. So to

462
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: quote again from Men's Journal. One anecdote is particularly telling.

463
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: Grossman writes about a sixteen year old and client whose

464
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: parents took away his copy of Halo three because they

465
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: thought it was too violent. His father locked the game

466
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: in a lock box, which also held a nine millimeter handgun.

467
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: The boy stole the key, took the game in the gun,

468
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: and shot both of his parents in the head. Grossman

469
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: blames video games for the murder. He says nothing about

470
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: the pistol, which and I'm I'm even gonna say he used,

471
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 1: he used to kill his parents, I forget he beat

472
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: them to death of a copy of Halo three Jack,

473
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: famously the heaviest video game ever published. I mean, and

474
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna honestly, like, if we're gonna be really fair here,

475
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: there's a lot more going on that even just the

476
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: pistol and this kid shooting his parents to death, right, Like,

477
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: there's a lot probably, Yeah, but obviously picking video games

478
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: over the easily available handgun is um ludicrous, uh fucking

479
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: wildly irresponsible. Um, so let's get back to the bulletproof mindset. Um.

480
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: The next age of this document is more data on

481
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: serious assaults per capita, which Grossman uses his evidence to

482
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: make his case that modern cities are more dangerous than ever.

483
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: Mother Jones sent a reporter to one of these classes.

484
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: He reported that in this segment of the class, Grossman

485
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: depicts the modern world as quote, a place where gang

486
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: member seat to seek to set records for killing cops,

487
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: where a kid in every school is thinking about racking

488
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: up a body count. His latest book, Assassination Generation, insists

489
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: that violent video games are turning the nation's youth and

490
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: the mass murderers. The recent wave of massacres is just

491
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: the beginning. Please stop calling them mass shootings. He smacks

492
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: the easels. These thump crimes. Thump are thump everywhere. He

493
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: foresees attacks on school busses and daycare centers. Kindergarteners run

494
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: about point five miles an hour and get a burst

495
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: of about twenty yards that then they're done. It won't

496
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: just happen with guns, but with hammers, axes, hatches, knives

497
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: and swords. Are the kindergarteners the ones attacking. No, no,

498
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: they're the victims. And Dr David knows how easy it

499
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: and he knows how easy it is to kill kindergarteners

500
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: because he has thought a lot about how you kill kindergarteners.

501
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: So that's part of the sheep dog mindset. Yeah, sheep

502
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: dog always look for, always how to kill a kindergarteners.

503
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: He continues, it it being these murders of kindergarteners won't

504
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: just happen with guns, but with hammers, axes, hatchetes, knives,

505
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: and swords. His voice drops an octave, hacking and stabbing

506
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,239
Speaker 1: little kids. You don't think they will attack daycares. It's

507
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 1: already happening in China. When you hear about a daycare massacre,

508
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: he tells, he shouts at them. Tell them Grossman said

509
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: it was coming. How dare he not consider machetes? I know,

510
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: I know about a daycare massacre? Tell him Grossman said

511
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: it was coming. That's so close to like a used

512
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: car salesman's pitch being like when you see it, it's

513
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: good fucking incredible. Yeah, tell him Grossman the orange that

514
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: that whole thing in l A on l A l A. Yeah,

515
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: so it's worth noting that. Robert, it almost sounds like

516
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: he's unhinged. Yeah, it almost sounds like he's a dangerously

517
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: irresponsible person to be taking teaching people anything. Um, It's

518
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: worth noting that in the copy of the training documents

519
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: Unicorn right obtained the young cop or whoever it was

520
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: taking who's taking the class, took notes and for this segment,

521
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: for this segment. During the segment, he wrote, presumably quoting Grossman,

522
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: you are the thin line of heroes preserving the fabric

523
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: of America during these dark and degenerate times, which I'm

524
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: sure Key's police up to be very responsible. So the

525
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: next page includes a graph on combat efficiency over time,

526
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: which shows how soldiers in combat functionally, um how their

527
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: functional efficiency efficiency changes over a period of multiple days

528
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: in combat, ranging from battle wise at about ten days

529
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: in too vegetative state at sixty days. And this is

530
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: pretty reasonable, saeming it seems pretty consistent with other things

531
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: I've read and and some things I've seen about like

532
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: how days of combat affect people. I have no reason

533
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: to believe that his data is inaccurate. But what we're

534
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: actually seeing with this insert is Grossman establishing the idea

535
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: that police officers in their communities are the same as

536
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: soldiers in an active war zone, which I don't know

537
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: is broadly accurate in Minneapolis now, but only because of

538
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: all the cops that these people killed because of all

539
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: the people these cops killed. Yeah. Now, next we get

540
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: some info on PTSD and trauma that seems broadly reasonable,

541
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: and then a full page insert on being shot and

542
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: like what to do if you're shot as an officer,

543
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: And again most of this basic information isn't wrong, but

544
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: it does advise officers to tap the power of adrenaline

545
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: and use the It uses the example of an officer

546
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: who quote shot up purp with a forty five five

547
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: times before the perp dropped. Later, this officer apparently told himself,

548
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: get up, get up. If he could do it, I

549
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: could do it. The page ends with a quote in

550
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: italics from Grossman himself, you have never lived until you

551
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: have almost died. For those who fight for it. Life

552
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: has a flavor that protected will never know. And again,

553
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: he's never fought for his life. What is what is

554
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: the flavor? David? How do you? I mean, it's fine

555
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: if you're quoting people on that, but don't make it

556
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: your quote because you don't know what that anyway of

557
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: the cops as military and a foreign land is. Yeah,

558
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: so I mean nefarious and just it's thoroughly rotten, and

559
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: we're we're seeing the impact of it, because now we

560
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: are at a point where the police have been acting

561
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: for a long time like they are an occupying army,

562
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: and finally the people in Minneapolis and some other places

563
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: are starting to be like, all right, well, let's let's

564
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: do what insurgents do when they're occupied by an aggressive

565
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: invading force. And yep, that's what you get. Um. So,

566
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: the next page of this document is the sin your

567
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: piece of Grossman's entire ideology, a biblical justification for killing.

568
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: It starts with the bold in italics or the the

569
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: bold large print letters question thou shalt not kill question mark,

570
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: and then what follows are a series of biblical quotes

571
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: thou shalt not murder underline From Exodus, Jesus said, thou

572
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: shalt do no murder. From matt nineteen eighteen. The Lord

573
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: gave victory to David from Second Chronicles eighteen six. David

574
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: killed his tens of thousands. From one Samuel's eighteen seven.

575
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: Trouble started when David murdered Uriah from eleven Samuel eleven

576
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: these six things God hates and including shadders of innocent blood.

577
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: In Proverbs six seventeen, the rich young man comes to

578
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: Jesus sell everything you have which seems out of place

579
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: in Matt nineteen one. And then the centurion comes to Jesus,

580
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: no greater faith have I found Matt eight ten. Jesus said,

581
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: by as sword Luke thirty six Matt twenty six fifty two.

582
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: Who he who lives by the sword, shall die by

583
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: the sword Romans thirteen four. The magistrate beareth not the

584
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: sword in vain and acts ten that which quotes the

585
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: fact that the first gentile Christian is Cornelius, a centurion

586
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: who you get the feeling like he's basically saying God

587
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 1: loves cops. God is okay with killing as long as

588
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: it's not the murder of innocence. And since the killing

589
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: you won't be doing is the murder of innocence, God

590
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: wants you to kill. That's that's the argument this page

591
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: is making, and it ends with a quote from John

592
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: Random scraps of biblical uh and incoherent scraps of biblical

593
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 1: nonsense John thirteen is the quote that ends this page.

594
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: Greater love has no man than this, that he give

595
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: his life for his friends, so dangerously unhinged and incoherent,

596
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: is how I would kind of see that but you

597
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: can get you get the mindset that this kind of

598
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: pushes in the people who listen to it. Now, following

599
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: trust somebody who came up with no first of all,

600
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: somebody people should probably look him up. His eyes are

601
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: like closer together than a flounder, and he just he

602
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: is and they're tiny, and he just like has the

603
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: look of a very stupid man. Um Like it's almost

604
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: like he looks like a cartoon of a young George Bush,

605
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: George W. Bush. But he h and like there's like

606
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: some putin in there too, like a splash, a little death.

607
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: But like somebody who came up with the phrase killology

608
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: to choose, like what I was going to have for lunch,

609
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: let alone choose who lives and dies? Yeah, I wouldn't

610
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: want him making salads, let alone teaching people in the

611
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: community with guns. I would I would feel okay with

612
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: him digging holes maybe, although I don't like him having

613
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 1: a Yeah, I don't like him having a shovel um

614
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: so yeah. Following all this, we get a page on

615
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: the Modern Warriors Edge, which includes some pretty embarrassing clip

616
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: art of a schlubby cop looking in the mirror and

617
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: seeing a muscular cop uh. It does positively note that

618
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: communication skills are the most important skills for an officer

619
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: to master, which is true, I would say. But then

620
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: it warns cops that most of their attackers will warn

621
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: or provide indicators before striking, and that predators are always

622
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: looking for a body count, which they find by recognizing

623
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: soft targets. And then after that we hit what is

624
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: probably the most central and important aspect of this whole

625
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: training program, the video I'm in Fear of my life.

626
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: This video is about a police officer who was killed

627
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: in nine, Deputy Kyle dink Heller. And I'm not sure

628
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: if I've seen the exact same video that Grossman plays

629
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: in his courses, but I did find a CNN article

630
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: on the case, and it includes a video that I

631
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: believe to be at least very similar. The article on

632
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: CNN that includes this video opens with this paragraph, Jack,

633
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: if you want to know why cops shoot people, you

634
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: can find one of many answers in those three minutes.

635
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: On Whipple's Crossing Road is where dink Keller was shot.

636
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: There on January twelfth, ninety eight. Deputy Kyle Dinkkeller of

637
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: the Lawrence County Sheriff's office made the final traffic stop

638
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,439
Speaker 1: of his brief career, and it is striking. In short,

639
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna play aspects of this in a bit. The

640
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: video shows a traffic stop. The deputy pulls over an

641
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: older man driving erratically. Said man is belligerent. He jumps

642
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: and he refuses commands. UM. At one point he jumps

643
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: up and down, yelling for the officer to shoot him. Uh.

644
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: He yells that he is a Vietnam veteran. He gets

645
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: in Dean Keller's face and he gets aggressive. The deputy

646
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: eventually hits him with a nightstick. The man is knocked down,

647
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: but he gets back up and runs to his car.

648
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: There he grabs a rifle, which he uses to shoot

649
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: Deputy dink Heller to death. UM and kind of critically,

650
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: he fires several warning shots. First Dinkkeller fires back and

651
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: hits him, and then he shoots dink Keller to death.

652
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: And the video is horrific. Whatever else do you think

653
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: about cops? Dink Keller does seem to have honestly tried

654
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: to do everything in his power to avoid shooting this guy,

655
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: even after the guy pulled out a rifle. It is

656
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: It is a terrible video. UM, and I guess if

657
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: we're gonna do a content warning, you're gonna hear a

658
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: man's death screams a little bit later. It's it's bad, um,

659
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: but it's important because this is what is This is

660
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: like one of the most important videos in police training

661
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: in the United States, even outside of of Grossman's courses.

662
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: And the CNN video of this um includes interviews with

663
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: Kyle dink Keller's dad, who trains cops now and what

664
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: din Keller's dad takes out of this video is just

665
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: as horrific as the video itself. And I'm gonna ask

666
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: you to play that clip now, Kyle. It was a

667
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: deputy sheriff with Lawrence County Sheriff Department in Doublin, Georgia.

668
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: He was a good officer, me and his dad. I'm

669
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: the first one to say, yeah, he made some mistakes.

670
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: He was too fair, he was too nice. That was

671
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: just him. My son pulled out his aspaton hit him

672
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: a few times. But then the first mistake he made

673
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: was letting a man get kept him on the ground

674
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: and yeah, this is his dad can sat back out.

675
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: He was given the guy to the last asked ditch

676
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: effort to put the gun down. He didn't want to

677
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: hurt him. It didn't work. Okay, yeah, that's probably enough.

678
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: So that's pretty horrific, right, those screams are that's bad. Uh,

679
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a hard video to watch. It's brutal,

680
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: um and it has you can tell the impact that

681
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: it's had on his dad because he's taken out of

682
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: this the fact that his son was too kind and

683
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: gave this guy too many chances, was not violent enough. Um.

684
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: And that is what watching the video, that's how it's

685
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: trained to police that like you need to be shooting

686
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: faster to save your own life. Um. And that video

687
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: you can like imagine about a whole classroom full of

688
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: young cops, which is like what who this video was

689
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: played to almost every and they show that actually is

690
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: like a bunch of cops just like putting their head down.

691
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: I mean it's really like one of the I I

692
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: can't like that's it's like trying to amp them up

693
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: to just be as trigger happy as possible. It's like

694
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: the bad bad police porn. Like how how not the

695
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: person who's being killed in the video. But like it's

696
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: it's just such a specific example and like just piece

697
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: of propaganda. Yeah, and it's yeah, we're gonna be talking

698
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: about this video quite a bit. So, as you might imagine,

699
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: the dink Keller video has a powerful impact on the

700
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: police and Grossman's classes. UM. And he ties this video

701
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: and the fact that dink Keller didn't shoot earlier UM

702
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: to some facts from the Civil War. UM. On battlefields

703
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: in the Civil War, dropped muskets were often found loaded

704
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: with multiple balls UM. And kind of the conclusion that

705
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: Grossman and a number of people take from this is

706
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: that most soldiers weren't trying to kill the enemy. UM,

707
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: that they were basically like pretending to fire and then

708
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: fake loading their guns, which is why like there were

709
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 1: so many bullets in them, because they weren't willing to

710
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: shoot people. That is one interpretation that other people say

711
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: that like people panic in in gunfights because it's terrifying,

712
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: and they were like fucking up not realizing their gun

713
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: wasn't actually firing because they were in a panicked situation,

714
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 1: or they were like fucking up while loading and accidentally

715
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: sticking too many balls in. UM. There's no way to

716
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: know what the actual truth is, but Grossman ties this

717
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: to the fact that people's people are so naturally unwilling

718
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: to kill people that you have to really aggressively train

719
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: people like police to kill very easily, otherwise they won't

720
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: kill when they need to. Like, that's that's the lesson

721
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: he learns from this, so that they're his argument is

722
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 1: that the Civil War wasn't deadly enough. Kind of yeah,

723
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: that is part of it. Yeah, well, we'll talk more

724
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: about this in a little bit. Uh. In these classes,

725
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: the sheriff who trained dink Heller gets a lot of

726
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: guff um for the way that he trained his deputies,

727
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: which gives you an idea of kind of like some

728
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: of the pre grossman attitudes towards at least shootings of

729
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: white people. Um. And the sheriff who trained to this

730
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,919
Speaker 1: cop that died was famous for telling his officers, make

731
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: sure that if you shoot, it's a good shoot, and

732
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: if not, you're probably gonna lose everything you've got. You've got,

733
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: plus you're probably going to go to prison. So he

734
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: was being like, don't shoot unless you're absolutely certain it's

735
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, otherwise you will go to prison,

736
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 1: which I would say is how everyone with a gun

737
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: should feel right right like at all times, no matter

738
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: who you are. At all times. Yeah. Now, the way

739
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: the story goes, Webb had a minor dust up with

740
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: dink Heller a few miners a few months prior to

741
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 1: his death. The deputy wound up yelling at a driver

742
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: on the road while responding to an incident. That driver

743
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: was a friend of Sheriff Webb's. He told the sheriff,

744
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: and the sheriff yelled at dink Keller and made him

745
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: write a letter of apology. This humiliated dink Keller and

746
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: caused him to get shipped from his colleagues. So, as

747
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: the story goes, he was also super self conscious about

748
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: sucking up on the job and getting in trouble, and

749
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: that's why he didn't shoot first. This whole story in

750
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: the video of this man's death has become a seminal

751
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: moment in the history of law enforcement education. Not only

752
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: did Kyle din Keller's father start touring with the video

753
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: of his son's death and teaching classes on it, but

754
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: other trainers have adopted the video, including Grossman. It is

755
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: used in police training courses in at least twenty seven states.

756
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: The lesson plan that accompanies this one course or one

757
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: course notes that the video is meant to help police

758
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: quote determined when lethal force is justified, and to always

759
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: remember your life is worth more than a lawsuit. And

760
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: the thing that's not stated there, but it is true,

761
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: is that they're also saying, remember your life is worth

762
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: more than other people's As a cop, yeah, which is

763
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: not the I mean, you would think that becoming a

764
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 1: cop is like the ideal version or the best case

765
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: scenary would be that it's a calling and you're there

766
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: to serve and protect the people who for some I

767
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, yeah, you would think serve and protect

768
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: would be a part of the job, like and ideally,

769
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: and I do want to stay here that Like, I'm

770
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: not saying Grossman's training had a particular impact on the

771
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: the son of a bitch who killed George Floyd, because

772
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: that whatever whatever that was, that was that was even

773
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: out of the pail for police murders of black men.

774
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: But obviously I think it had a huge impact on

775
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: all of the other police murders in Minneapolis and a

776
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: bunch of other parts of the United States that contributed

777
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: to George Floyd's murder kind of setting all this off,

778
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, like it it's a factor buying those like

779
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: I don't know what the funk was going on with

780
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: the guy, Like that's be even be like beyond the

781
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: pail for police murders of people, um, which is part

782
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: of why it had the impact it did. Um. So

783
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: just so slow and yeah, deliberate and yeah, it's just

784
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: like there's so many moments where they can stop what

785
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: they're doing and they just doing it. Yeah. Yeah, the

786
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: kind of killing that Grossman's stuff I think really mainly

787
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: has had a major impact on. It's like the killings

788
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: of people like Philando Castile where the cop clearly without

789
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: any sort of good reason, makes a split second decision

790
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: to gun somebody down based off of like a moment

791
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: of anxiety. Um. Like that's what Grossman's impact is on.

792
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: So and again like he's not the only one who

793
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: uses this video in trainings, and another training company, Milo Range,

794
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: even turned to the dink Keller video into an interactive

795
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: video game played with a fake gun that gives training

796
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 1: cops a chance to kill the man who killed Kyle

797
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: dink Keller, which is lunacy um. According to CNN quote

798
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: at the Bartow County Sheriff's Office in Carter'sville, Georgia, Captain

799
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: Richie Harrold used this training machine to test more than

800
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: a hundred officers willingness to use deadly force. If an

801
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: officer waited too long to fire, Harold asked, what are

802
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: you doing? What the heck are you doing? That's good? Yeah,

803
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: So obviously the problem of absurdly aggressive police training is

804
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: wider than Grossman, but journalists have noted that as far

805
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: as anyone can tell, he's probably trained more cops than

806
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: any other man in the country, which is why we're

807
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: focusing on him. He is the most influential figure involved

808
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: in crafting this narrative which the Din Killer video brutally narrates,

809
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: that police are in more danger now than they've ever been.

810
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, fatal shootings of officers by civilians have declined

811
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: for forty years. Yeah, like that's got to be the opposite, right, Like,

812
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: are we at the safest point we've been at? Like

813
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: pretty pretty much? There was a slight surge in like,

814
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: um as a result of like those shootings of cops

815
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: and stuff during the election. Um that we're kind of

816
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: that we're in response to the shootings by cops of

817
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: of black men. UM. But yeah, it's it is safer

818
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: than it's been in for of the history of this

819
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: nation for cops right now, in two officers were murdered

820
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: on the job. That's not a tiny number, but for

821
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: some context, about a hundred and eighteen retail workers were

822
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: murdered on the job. Um. Overall, police officers are number

823
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: fourteen in the nationwide list of jobs most likely to

824
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: get you killed. Fisherman, loggers, garbageman, and taxi drivers are

825
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: all more likely to die working, uh than police. Now

826
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: that's what the actual facts say. Yeah, fisherman, I mean

827
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous to be a fisherman. Like that makes

828
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 1: total sense. It's that's a hard gig. Yeah yeah, yeah,

829
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: But like fucking garbageman and taxi drivers are at more

830
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: risk of dying on the job than cops. But the

831
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: fisherman thing did bother me. I don't know, yeah, yeah,

832
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: I mean it's not I wish less fisherman died. I

833
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: don't have a problem with fisherman. So um. So yeah,

834
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 1: that those are the facts. But those are not the facts,

835
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: is as Grossman relates them. I'm gonna report or quote

836
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: from mother Jones reporting on this bit of the seminar quote,

837
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: the number of dead cops has exploded like nothing we

838
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: have ever seen, he tells the armed citizens in Lakeport,

839
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: which is where he was doing a class. Um, this

840
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 1: is that is not true. The average, the average annual

841
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: number of police officers intentionally killed wall on duty in

842
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: the past decade lower than it was in the nineteen eighties.

843
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: If emergency medicine and body armor hadn't improved since the

844
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Grossman claims, the number of dead cops would

845
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: be eight times what it is today. It is not

846
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: clear how he arrived at these figures, and it's also

847
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: worth noting that like that was from another a version

848
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: of the seminar that he does for civilians with guns,

849
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: which he's also started doing now because after the philand

850
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: no cast steel killing less police started using his services.

851
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: So that's good. Um, so he should be in jail, right, Yeah,

852
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,479
Speaker 1: he should be, and he should be in jail for

853
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons. Um I would I would say

854
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: there's an amount of irresponsibility that's tantamount to a crime. Um,

855
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's probably not a crime on the

856
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: books that he's technically committed, but let's change the books.

857
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know. One thing, yeah, yeah, one thing

858
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: I found really interesting is that Grossman and all these

859
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: other police trainers tend to completely ignore the person who

860
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: killed Kyle didn Keller Andrew Brannon. And I'm gonna quote

861
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: from CNN talking about who Brandon was. Brandon spent three

862
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: years as an army officer in Vietnam, where his company

863
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: commander was blown apart by a land mine, and Brandon

864
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: never really came home from the war. The sound of

865
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: a bottle rocket sent him diving under the couch. He

866
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: left college after a nervous nervous breakdown. He couldn't hold

867
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: a job. He got married and divorced. He tried walking

868
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: alone in the woods from Mexico to the Canadian border,

869
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: or from Tennessee to New York on the trail. In

870
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: nineteen eight six, he wrote a postcard to his father.

871
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: I wish to thank you for being the being that

872
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: means the most to me. You have said a good

873
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: example which I am only now getting better at following.

874
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: But I will keep on going. Better to keep going

875
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: than to stop. Then his father died of cancer, and

876
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: he withdrew to a hideout in the woods of Lawrence County,

877
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: and in early he ran out of the medicine that

878
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: treated his depression and stabilized his moods. By January twelve,

879
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 1: when he met Kyle dink Keller, he had been unmedicated

880
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: for five days. There are a lot of lessons to

881
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: take out of the shooting of Kyle Kyle din Keller.

882
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't think they are cops should be shooting people faster. Yes,

883
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: that's the it's you really have to work hard to

884
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: get that decision that wrong. Yeah. Among the lessons I

885
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: would take out of this is we shouldn't be fighting wars. Uh,

886
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: that don't concern us in any our security in any

887
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: meaningful way, and and send back thousands of young men

888
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: who have been traumatized. Uh. We shouldn't have a system

889
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 1: whereby somewhere for people to have their stabilizing medication. Yeah,

890
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: we should. We should have more therapy. We should have

891
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: a culture in which it is it is considered less

892
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: shameful for men to to to take therapy. There's a

893
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: lot of lessons to take out of this shooting. Um yeah,

894
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: um so yeah. The and and the good analyses I've

895
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: read on Britain suggests very credibly that he was trying

896
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: to commit suicide by cop firing a number of shots

897
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: that didn't hit din Keller before he actually shot the officer. UM,

898
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: And when he fired back it was after he had

899
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: been wounded, And kind of the theory goes that he

900
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: flipped out and went into nom mode once he got

901
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: hit and killed the deputy. UM. Yeah, the officer who

902
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: was taking the bulletproof mindset course that I'm reading from,

903
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: took this note during this section of the lecture. We

904
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: know what they are trying to do, kill a cop,

905
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 1: So why do they expect us to act differently? They

906
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: start this, but then they ask us to play by

907
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 1: the rules. HM. So from this point in the lecture,

908
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: Grossman goes on to lecture has now terrified and angry

909
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: students about what his research has told him about their adversaries,

910
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: which are again American citizens UM, mostly of a specific color.

911
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: Grossman warns that they are younger and in better shape

912
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: than police, that they have been in more gunfights and

913
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: violent encounters, which in Grossman's case, is not a high

914
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: bar at least. Uh. He states that they practice more,

915
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: which is true, UM, and states that they don't hesitate

916
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: when it comes to violence. So he's who is he

917
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: talking about? Uh? I mean, some of this is based

918
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: in the fact that, like an FBI study revealed that

919
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: cop killers tend to have more armed training and practice

920
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: than cops. But that's a low bar because most cops

921
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: practice very little with their side arms. UM. Like that,

922
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: it's actually an extremely low bar to practice more. I

923
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: practice more with my gun than the average US police officer. UM.

924
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: But he's also noting that, like, like, he's not just

925
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: saying that like this about cop killers. He's saying about

926
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: this about your adversaries, which he kind of intimates are

927
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: almost anyone you run into as a cop. UM. So

928
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: it seems like he could just be saying that everybody

929
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: who you pull over is like a trained assassin. I mean,

930
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: he called is generation assassin, assassination generation. That's what he's saying.

931
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: We're just gonna roll some mats now, then we're back.

932
00:51:55,880 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what a day. So this is fun

933
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: stuff from their Uh. Grossman plays a video that involves

934
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: police shooting at a suspect in a car who was

935
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: driving away. Grossman to make sure his students know that

936
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: these were good shoots, that these cops shooting at a

937
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 1: car driving away were good shoots, and that if anyone

938
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: says shooting at a fleeing car is bad. It's because

939
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: of media poisoning. Um, Like, the media has poisoned their minds.

940
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: If they if they say at a fleeing car, maybe

941
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: don't shoot at a fleeing car in the middle of

942
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: a city. Um. Yeah, that's that's that's the it's media

943
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: mind poisoning that makes building cut that from copaganda. Yeah,

944
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean, let's let's all take a moment back to

945
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: when those cops a guy with a gun like entered

946
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: the trader Joe's fleeing from the police, and they just

947
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: fired wildly into into the trader. Joe's killing a woman.

948
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: Um may be relevant to this. So the next page

949
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: of this booklet focuses on nonverbal communication, which Grossman's rights

950
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: rights is much more important than verbal communication. He goes

951
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: onto le sure cops about different nonverbal cues that can

952
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: help them determine who secretly means them harm. Some examples

953
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: include I am not lying. So the words I am

954
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: not lying, Grossman says, are a hint to cops that

955
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: you are lying in an untrustworthy person and also a

956
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 1: thing just a perfect description of how people talk. Hey, yes, officer,

957
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 1: i am not I'm not lying. I'm not lying. It's

958
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: one of those things I have. I was. I had

959
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: a very tense police interaction where they attempted to search

960
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: my car and had like it was very stressful, long night.

961
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,879
Speaker 1: We spent like a couple of hours with them, um,

962
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: and they kept telling me that they were trained to

963
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: tell when I was lying, and they knew I was

964
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: lying about having pot in the car and I didn't

965
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: have pot in the car this time, and ironically enough,

966
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: another time when I did, I was pulled over and

967
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 1: had my car searched by dogs and had weed in

968
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: the car. I locked eyes with the officer and repeatedly

969
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: told him I didn't have pot, and he let me

970
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: go because they're trained to believe him and say, I

971
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 1: am not lying, I am not lying. I just said

972
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: I don't have pot. Yeah. Part of the problem with

973
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: this is that Grossman again says that like, nonverbal cues

974
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: are the most important thing to recognize as a cop,

975
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: and people are famously bad at recognizing nonverbal cues. Uh

976
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 1: you see. San Francisco psychologist Dr Paul Ekman conducted a

977
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: study in nine on people's ability to recognize a liar

978
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: from nonverbal cues, and he found that most people were

979
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: remarkably certain across the board that they were good at

980
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: telling when someone was lying. He also found that most

981
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: people across the board were very bad at telling when

982
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: other people were lying. Quote, the great majority of us

983
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: are easily mislead. It's very difficult and most people just

984
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: don't know what cues to rely on. Grossman teaches his

985
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 1: officers that people who make eye contact are more likely

986
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: to be honest and thus safe. And again this is

987
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: another misnomer. People are less likely to make eye contact

988
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: with they when they are frightened. And people are frightened

989
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 1: about police officers. Uh. Counter like. Counter to this, people

990
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: who are either hardened criminals or just folks like me

991
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,919
Speaker 1: who wind up talking to police officers a lot, whether

992
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: or not we're doing the thing they're concerned about. Uh,

993
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: learn that you make eye contact with cops at all points.

994
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: You don't break eye contact when you're telling them, and

995
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: you tell them what they need to hear. That's how

996
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: you deal with cops. You make eye contact, you keep

997
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: your hands open, you tell them what they need to

998
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 1: hear for you to go home. Like that's what you do.

999
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're talking about dealing with an angry dog. Yeah,

1000
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: that is that is I deal with police and angry

1001
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 1: having been at hands where you can see them slow moves. Well,

1002
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: you don't want to make eye contact with an angry

1003
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 1: dog because that that's seen as confrontational a little bit.

1004
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: But you do want to very yeah, um, but you do. Yeah,

1005
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: it's it's. The best teacher I ever had was my

1006
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 1: speech and debate coach for one semester until he got

1007
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: fired for his past history of selling pot. But the

1008
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: thing he told us was that as adults, what we

1009
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: needed to know is that anytime you're dealing with an

1010
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: authority figure who has the ability to punish you, the

1011
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: only thing, whether he said, whether it's a judge or

1012
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: a police officer, you make eye contact with them and

1013
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: you tell them slowly and calmly whatever they need to

1014
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: hear for you to go home. And that that advice

1015
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: has never led me astray. That that that that I mean.

1016
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: And again, I'm a tall, white guy, which helps a lot.

1017
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: But um, that's that's the best advice I ever got

1018
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: as a kid from a teacher. Really, the only advice

1019
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: I ever got as a kid from a teacher that

1020
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: I remember, Uh, shout out to coach Gonzalez of fucking Clark. Um, yeah,

1021
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: so yeah, again, he's he's telling people that, like, yeah,

1022
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 1: so he's some people that all these nonverbal cues mean

1023
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: folks are lying and this stuff is like just straight

1024
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: up not true. And part of what he is doing

1025
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: is he's getting officers to expect that people who express

1026
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: fear of police officers often by fidgeting or not making

1027
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: eye contact, and these people could be afraid for completely

1028
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: legitimate reasons, like the fact that they're black residents of Minneapolis.

1029
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 1: That people who do this are a threat for doing

1030
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: the things that science tells us are normal behaviors for

1031
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: scared people. Um, that's what he's training cops to believe. Now,

1032
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: this is probably the least salacious part. This next part

1033
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: is probably this part is probably the least salacious part

1034
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: of his training, but it might be the most dangerous one.

1035
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: Grossman doesn't come across directly and say if someone fails

1036
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: to meet your eye or acts nervous, shoot them, but

1037
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 1: he does tell officers that they are they are under

1038
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 1: risk of deadly assault at all waking moments, that people

1039
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: are lurking in the shadows constantly ready to kill them,

1040
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: that they should err on the side of violence and that,

1041
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you can tell who's dangerous if that by

1042
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: the fact that they won't meet your eyes. And then

1043
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: he says, ship like this, we fight violence, what do

1044
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: we fight it with? Superior violence? Righteous violence? Jesus, it's

1045
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: that great, Jack. I don't ye, I don't like this either.

1046
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: Not a fan. For the record, They're they're allowed to

1047
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: carry gout like, yep, they can legally murder you. And

1048
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: if you act nervous when they walk up to you

1049
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: with their hand on the gun that they can legally

1050
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: murder you with, they will legally murder you. Yep. Yeah.

1051
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: That doesn't seem like a healthy system for divining the

1052
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: truth and innocence of any given situation. Yeah, Like, like

1053
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Colonel Grossman, I'm not a cop, Jack, but I

1054
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: would agree with you that seems unreasonable as well. So

1055
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: much much of Grossman's analysis is based on a series

1056
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: of studies conducted after World War Two and through the

1057
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: Vietnam Era, and the short summary of these studies studies

1058
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: that researchers after World War Two found that U S

1059
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: soldiers in combat only shot at the enemy like fifteen

1060
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: or twenty of the time. Most troops would fire above

1061
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: the enemy's heads or pretend to fire anything they could

1062
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: do to avoid actually killing somebody. And so the military

1063
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: had to create a rigorous new training method to teach

1064
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: soldiers to aim and shoot at human bodies automatically without thinking.

1065
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 1: And by Vietnam, you know, soldiers who were trained properly

1066
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: no longer hesitated before at human beings. And this research

1067
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: is very famous. It is cited by a lot of

1068
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: folks outside of Grossman. I'm not going to get into

1069
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: this in detail because the veracity of it is heavily debated,

1070
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of reasons to question those

1071
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: old World War two studies, a lot of people who

1072
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: will say their bogus. I'm there's too much of his

1073
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: topic for us to get into. Now. What's important is

1074
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: that Grossman believes it. I found in a two thousand

1075
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: four PBS interview with him in which he really lays

1076
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: out his mindset on this, and I want to remind

1077
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: you all he's talking about this because he views what

1078
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: he's saying as a good thing that he does, as

1079
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: a positive service that he provides two cops quote prior preparation.

1080
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: Is that one variable in the equation that we can

1081
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: control ahead of time, and one of the key things

1082
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: is embracing the responsibility to kill. Modern training makes you

1083
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: kill without conscious thought. We are making it possible for

1084
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: people to kill without conscious thought, and thankfully and frankly,

1085
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: at the moment of truth, they need to be able

1086
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: to do that. Those who are not properly trained are

1087
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: going to be killed killed, and so we're teaching them

1088
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: to kill without anxious thought. And they, at an unconscious level,

1089
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: at the muscle memory level, reflex level, have grasped killing. Gun, Shoot,

1090
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: he's dead. I can trick your body into killing, but

1091
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: if your mind is not ready to come along on

1092
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: this ride, who's the next victim? You are? I have

1093
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: tricked your body into doing something that your mind is

1094
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: not ready to do. So when I teach, one of

1095
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: the things I believe we need to do is embrace

1096
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: this word kill. You will read a hundred military manuals

1097
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: and you'll never see the word kill. It's a dirty,

1098
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: four letter word, it's an obscene word, and yet it's

1099
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: what we do. Assuming there's no stress inoculation in a

1100
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: normal human being. At the moment when you want to fire,

1101
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 1: the four brain shuts down the midbrain takes over and

1102
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 1: you slam head on into a resistance to killing your

1103
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: own kind. The only way to overcome that resistance is

1104
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: through operant conditioning, to make killing a condition reflex. And

1105
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: we've done that. That's the worst. That's real bad. It's

1106
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: it's human engineering, like able engineering to murder on behalf

1107
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: of the people who are designed, who whose function in

1108
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: this like, according to the social contract, is to protect. Yes,

1109
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: that is exactly contradiction. He contradiction. He also is like

1110
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, he's like, you know, the war that

1111
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: we should try and imitate is the one that America

1112
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 1: like that completely psychologically damaged, damaged Americans as America as

1113
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: a nation. Uh, let's go after that one. Because World

1114
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 1: War two was dead not deadly enough. Yeah, we didn't

1115
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: are clearly our soldiers didn't do a good enough job

1116
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: of defeating fascism on a global scale. Um, and the

1117
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: way we fought in Vietnam was much more effective, like

1118
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: the war that we famously lost. Its I was like

1119
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: that built in uh you know yeah, physical and psychological. Uh,

1120
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: stop that you hit when you're trying to kill someone,

1121
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: is there for a reason. Yeah, it's almost like maybe

1122
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,919
Speaker 1: maybe the fact that US soldiers in World War Two

1123
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: were less aggressive, played into the fact that we were

1124
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: so clearly the good guys in that war. I mean,

1125
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: the genocides committed by the Nazis probably were more of

1126
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: a factor. But it is weird to take out of that. Oh,

1127
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: we gotta get people to kill more better, we gotta

1128
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: get people to kill more. Um. Yeah, obviously, Jack, I'm

1129
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: not an expert killologist. You know, I haven't studied killology

1130
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: as much as as Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman. But that

1131
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,240
Speaker 1: seems terrified. Your horrible to me everything I've just read.

1132
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 1: You have your masters in killology, but you don't. You

1133
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: don't have your pH you know, Jack, I never I

1134
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 1: never finished my master's thesis on killology. I've got everything

1135
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: but the thesis. Yeah, I you know, I dropped out.

1136
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: I just didn't have I couldn't afford it. You know.

1137
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: After a certain while that was cheology. Uh Loan grants

1138
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 1: just weren't enough. Um So maybe if I have reminds

1139
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: me of the Da Vinci Code when they're when they

1140
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: make up the thing that the Star is good at.

1141
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: It's like a puzzleologist or something cryptologist, which I think

1142
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: is a real thing. But it's like cryptology is I

1143
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:33,919
Speaker 1: don't think he's basically he's basically a word jumble expert. Um.

1144
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: It's that's all horrible to me. Um and I I

1145
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: might say that anyone bragging about doing that to people's heads, UM,

1146
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 1: especially the heads of people whose job is to protect

1147
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: and interface with members of the community, that seems incredibly irresponsible. UM.

1148
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: And Grossman himself, in this interview with PBS even acknowledges

1149
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: that his trainings can funk up the heads of the

1150
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 1: police who take his advice. Quote, if we haven't prepared

1151
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: ourselves emotionally for the act ahead of time, and we

1152
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: just tricked you into killing, the magnitude of the trauma

1153
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 1: can be significant because we're having to live with something

1154
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: your body says is not right and you don't want

1155
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 1: to do. And you were simply tricked into killing David

1156
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: Jesus Jesus fucking Christ. So the thing you don't want

1157
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: to do, we tricked you into it, and that fux

1158
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: your head up. I'm gonna make this my entire life.

1159
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make doing this my whole like it's one

1160
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: of those things. Again. Yeah, this is clearly not the

1161
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: time to express sympathy with cops. But he is talking

1162
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: about gaslighting and emotionally abusing police officer, abusing police officers

1163
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: like that is what he's doing. He's he's talking very

1164
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: directly about that. It's not good, Like it's not good.

1165
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: I am. I'm taking a firm anti killology stance here. Jack.

1166
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: It seems it seems like that I'm gonna, Yeah, I'm

1167
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna stand next to you on that. I'm

1168
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: gonna stand with you that I am someone who whenever

1169
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: I walk out the door, I have a gun on me,

1170
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: a loaded and chambered firearm with with a bullet ready

1171
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: to fire when I pull the trigger. That that is

1172
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: an everyday thing for me, because death threats are pretty

1173
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: much in every week thing for me at this point. Um,

1174
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: I think a lot about what would happen if I

1175
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: had to draw a gun and shoot a human being. Um,

1176
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: And I can tell you, like I lose sleep over it.

1177
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 1: There is nothing that scares me more. And the people

1178
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm specifically thinking about shooting potentially are fucking Nazis. Like

1179
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: that's realistically who I'm worried about because of the threat,

1180
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: and it's not I'm not particularly like I'm not horribly

1181
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 1: traumatized at the fact that I might have to kill

1182
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: someone who is attempting to kill me. I am terrified

1183
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: about the fact that people miss regularly, and stressful situations

1184
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: like gunfights and bullets don't stop because you miss, and

1185
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: the idea of firing. Anyone who carries a gun should

1186
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: be scared every time that they go into public with

1187
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: that gun. It should be something that worries them. It

1188
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: should be a it should be uncomfortable. It is a

1189
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 1: necessity for some people. And I'm not saying it's bad

1190
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: to carry a concealed handgun or something. I do it,

1191
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: but you should. It should be a weight on your shoulders.

1192
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: It should not be something you trained to not think about.

1193
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: You should never stop thinking about it. Um. That's my

1194
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: attitude as a guy who was thankfully never had to

1195
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 1: shoot anybody and hopes like how he never has to, Um,

1196
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 1: but who does go into the world armed regularly. Uh

1197
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, so, uh this is all great. Uh ah.

1198
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: So we need to work on your your reflexes so

1199
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: that you have a little bit more killology. Uh yeah,

1200
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 1: expertise before the next time you walk out that door. Bro.

1201
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 1: So the murder of Mr. Castile did not spell the

1202
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: end of Grossman's business, but it did impact it. The

1203
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 1: sheer Off of Santa Clara County, California canceled an upcoming

1204
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 1: training session after Mr Castile's murder. Um and she said

1205
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: that her officers were peacemaker's first and warriors second. Uh.

1206
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: There was an avalanche of criticism against Grossman. He lost

1207
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: a decent amount of business um and this is what

1208
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: kind of inspired mother Jones to take that class and

1209
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: to write that article about him. And they wrote they

1210
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: interviewed a number of other like experts on law enforcement

1211
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: and even law enforcement trainers who are critical of Grossman.

1212
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to read that paragraph now. Grossman's trainings are

1213
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: fear porn, says Craig Atkinson, a filmmaker who attended one

1214
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: for his documentary on police military terrorization, Do Not Resist.

1215
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 1: He wonders how the Castile incident may have played out

1216
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: if Officer Jana's hadn't heard Dave Grossman tell him that

1217
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: every single traffic stop could might be the last stop

1218
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 1: you ever make in your life. Grossman is more of

1219
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: a motivational speaker than a trainer, says Seth Stoughton, a

1220
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: former cop in law professor at the University of South

1221
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: Carolina who studies the regulation of police and Grossman's worldview.

1222
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: Stouton says the officer is the hero, the warrior, the

1223
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: noble figure who steps into dark situations where others fear

1224
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: to tread and brings order to a chaotic world, and

1225
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: who does so by imposing their will on the civilians

1226
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: they deal with. This approach to policing is outdated and ineffective,

1227
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: says Stoughton, and some of it is dangerously wrong. Samuel Walker,

1228
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: a criminal justice professor an expert on police accountability, says

1229
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 1: the bulletproof Warrior approaches okay for green berets, but unacceptable

1230
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,679
Speaker 1: for domestic policing. The best police chiefs in the country

1231
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with this. Grossman and his

1232
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 1: business partner deny that what they provide as anything like

1233
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 1: military training, or that it treats cops as warriors, even

1234
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: though it repeatedly refers to them as frontline troops and

1235
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 1: shows them training materials that are also used by military

1236
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: trainers to prep soldiers. Yeah, it is really impossible to

1237
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: over emphasize how much bulletproof mindset training focuses on building

1238
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: an image of the world is irredeemably aggressive towards random cops.

1239
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 1: This Bloomberg right up describes how the class is open.

1240
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 1: Quote forty cops are in a classroom watching recent footage

1241
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,719
Speaker 1: of protesters in San Francisco denouncing the police. Your children

1242
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:57,679
Speaker 1: are ashamed of you. A black woman in the video

1243
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: tells a black officer who looks away, cow word. Others shout.

1244
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: A young demonstrator walks up to a cop and sticks

1245
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 1: out his middle finger. A female officer trips, and the

1246
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: demonstrators laugh. The volume is way up, and the cops

1247
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: in the room are leaning back in their chairs, crossing

1248
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: their arms and getting tents. David Grossman's partner in this

1249
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 1: steps into the front of the room and stops the video.

1250
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: Glennon fifty nine but twenty nine years as an officer

1251
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 1: in Lombard suburbs of Chicago, where they tortured people and

1252
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 1: at one point running accounting homicide investigations. He's six ft

1253
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: one pounds and has the gravelly voice and bearing of

1254
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: the desk sergeant on the nineteen eighties TV show Hill

1255
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 1: Street Blues, who told cops to be careful out there

1256
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,719
Speaker 1: before the squad cars rolled. Welcome to our world. Glennon says,

1257
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,560
Speaker 1: it's as bad as it's been since the sixties and seventies.

1258
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 1: And again, obviously that's not fucking true. That's objectively not true. Um.

1259
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you could argue that within the last three

1260
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 1: or four days it might be starting to be true,

1261
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: but it's because the cops treated people like enemy insurgents

1262
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: and murdered a bunch of them. Um. Yeah, And even then,

1263
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 1: no cops have been killed yet in this at least

1264
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 1: as of the recording of this fucking episode. Who knows

1265
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: where we'll be, you know, uh, in another couple of days. Um.

1266
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is what cops believe. Um. And if

1267
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:09,879
Speaker 1: it's not what the man who murdered George Floyd believed,

1268
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: it's probably what the other three cops he was with,

1269
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: who stood by and who helped him murder George Floyd believed.

1270
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 1: Minnesota police love Grossman's courses, and he has taught a

1271
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 1: lot of minnes of Minnesota cops, a lot of Minneapolis cops. Uh.

1272
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,440
Speaker 1: And as you might expect, he does not teach officers

1273
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:28,599
Speaker 1: positive things about groups like Black Lives Matter. He calls

1274
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: b l M protests treason, and he says that bl

1275
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: m has blood on its hands for encouraging people to

1276
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,520
Speaker 1: kill police. The media, he teaches his cops are bastards

1277
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: for their unfair coverage of police violence. When homicide cropped

1278
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: up ever so slightly in two, he blamed it on

1279
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 1: what he called the Ferguson effect. And his hypothesis is

1280
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 1: that after those police protests, protests, after those protests, cops

1281
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: were scared to do their jobs, and so they let

1282
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: more crimes happen. I guess it is not a very

1283
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 1: coherent belief system, but in Grossman's head it all makes sense.

1284
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,599
Speaker 1: Just his sheep dog metaphor makes sense. Quote. The sheep dog,

1285
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 1: he says, looks a lot like a wolf. He has

1286
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 1: fangs in the capacity for violence. The difference that the

1287
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: sheep dog must not, cannot, and will not ever harm

1288
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest

1289
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 1: little lamb will be punished and removed. Now, of course,

1290
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: Grossman doesn't think cops ever actually intentionally harm innocent people. Uh.

1291
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:26,640
Speaker 1: The author of that Men's Journal article up quoted from

1292
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 1: got a chance to interview him, and he brought that up.

1293
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 1: And here's his quote about this. Of all the recent

1294
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: high profile police killings, Grossman se is almost none that

1295
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 1: he believes were unjustified. Take Eric Garner, the Staten Island

1296
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: man who died after an a legal chokehold from the

1297
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: NYPD and whose last words were, I can't breathe. If

1298
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 1: you can talk, you can breathe. Grossman said that guy

1299
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: had a heart condition. The lesson is, don't fight cops

1300
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: when you have a heart condition. Jesus Christ. By the way,

1301
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:55,479
Speaker 1: one of the things that was said to George Floyd

1302
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:57,559
Speaker 1: by the police when he said that he couldn't breathe

1303
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,719
Speaker 1: is that if he could talk, he could breathe. Um, yep.

1304
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:07,519
Speaker 1: This guy is like or take Tamir Rice, the twelve

1305
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:09,600
Speaker 1: year old Cleveland boy who was fatally shot at a

1306
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: park while playing with a toy air soft gun. If

1307
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,080
Speaker 1: you had a gun pointed at you, Grossman says, sympathizing

1308
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: with the cop, who for the record, did not have

1309
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 1: a gun pointed at him, that one's borderline. I'm not

1310
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: going to give you that one. Yes, the instant shooting

1311
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 1: of a twelve year old with a toy is borderline. Yes. Yes.

1312
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 1: Grossman does not believe that police have any kind of

1313
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 1: bias against blackman that makes them more likely to shoot

1314
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 1: black men instead. He says, the far greater bias in

1315
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 1: our society today is a bias against cops. In ten

1316
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,679
Speaker 1: in ten thousand TV shows, in five movies, black people

1317
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 1: are almost never the bad guys. Name me one cop

1318
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 1: movie in the last thirty years that didn't have a

1319
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: bad cop. Now. In total fairness, Jack to David Grossman,

1320
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 1: he does think there's one way in which policing could

1321
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: be reformed. Um and he he even agrees that policing

1322
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 1: is broke. Do you know what do you want to know?

1323
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 1: Do you know what he thinks is broken about policing, Jack?

1324
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 1: They're too hemmed in by restrictions and they need to

1325
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: be able to more freely use violence. He does think that, clearly,

1326
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: but what he says is actually even dumber. When people

1327
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: tell you law enforcement is broken, they're right, And what's

1328
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:18,720
Speaker 1: broken asleep. He believes that when cops shoot wrongly, it's

1329
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 1: not because they're biased, are scared, or in need of

1330
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:22,760
Speaker 1: better training, or have been trained to shoot people much

1331
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,200
Speaker 1: more regularly. It's because they're tired, because they've been working

1332
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 1: too many long shifts and taking too much overtime, uh

1333
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: sleep deprivation. He says is the number one predictor of

1334
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 1: judgment errors, ethical problems, and used to force problems. If

1335
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:36,600
Speaker 1: I could change one thing in the world right now

1336
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 1: to make law enforcement better, it would be mandating sleep.

1337
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the bulletproof mindset does sound like a douchey

1338
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 1: diet among Silicone Valley people, like where it's like bulletproof caveman,

1339
01:13:55,320 --> 01:14:00,599
Speaker 1: where you like only eat meat and sleep for twenty

1340
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: minutes five times an hour. Um, that that would be

1341
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 1: too many Uh yeah, but yeah, it's I can see.

1342
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: I figured I was waiting for there to be some

1343
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: sort of bio hacking element to it, and we snuck

1344
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: it in right at the end. Yeah, I want to

1345
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: I want to close this jack with an anecdote from

1346
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 1: my own experiences, um, because it's one of the things

1347
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: that was most striking to me when I was in

1348
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: Iraq and Mosle during the fighting against Isis. Now, the

1349
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: the Iraqi army has a long history of doing fucked

1350
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 1: up shit, um, both before and after the invasion, right, Like,

1351
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of brutality from a number of different

1352
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:45,680
Speaker 1: Iraqi military units. Um. But I something I saw when

1353
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 1: I was up at the very front. One of my

1354
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,719
Speaker 1: last days in Mosel, I was at the the very

1355
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 1: edge of the advance. So I was standing at the

1356
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: end of a block of bombed out buildings, and the

1357
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 1: next block ten feet away was technically Isis territory, like

1358
01:14:57,760 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 1: they were fighting over that next block, and they were

1359
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 1: just waves of refugees whose houses had been blown up,

1360
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:07,400
Speaker 1: in some cases seconds earlier by bombs, fleeing towards us.

1361
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: And these huge lines of people with everything they owned

1362
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,599
Speaker 1: on their backs, who had been in Isis territory minutes earlier.

1363
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 1: And I was with this line of Iraqi police who

1364
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 1: were meeting these these fleeing people and were searching them

1365
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:21,840
Speaker 1: for bombs, and they had they had explosives detectors. All

1366
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 1: of these guys had friends who had been killed within

1367
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 1: days by Isis suicide bombers. And this was just a

1368
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 1: crowd of undifferentiated people walking out of Isis territory with

1369
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: huge bags on their backs and in their hands. It

1370
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: was a fucking tense situation, um. And there were numerous

1371
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 1: times where I saw young officer, young Iraqi soldiers walk

1372
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 1: up with metal detectors and guns to take someone's bags

1373
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: to search them, and the person would grab their bag

1374
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: and pull away, which is a I was terrified because

1375
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: that looks like a guy about to like fucking detonate

1376
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 1: a bomb that's in his bag or something. At no

1377
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: point did I see any of those Iraqi soldiers point

1378
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 1: their guns at a civilian so much as point their

1379
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:08,559
Speaker 1: guns at one. And these are eighteen nineteen year old

1380
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 1: boys with virtually no training, um, who are scared as hell,

1381
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 1: and who have had friends killed in similar circumstances. And

1382
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 1: I would have expected US cops in the same situation

1383
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,799
Speaker 1: to have reacted much more violently and much more poorly.

1384
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: And that's something that stayed with me ever since. It's

1385
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 1: almost like it's almost like we're the we're the worst,

1386
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:33,759
Speaker 1: almost like like we're doing a real bad job. Ya Um,

1387
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 1: way to go. David gross Man, David gross Man, Gross,

1388
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:40,880
Speaker 1: that's at Jack. You know, I think this is the

1389
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 1: end of gross most David nasty Pants. Yeah, good, David

1390
01:16:49,600 --> 01:17:01,680
Speaker 1: nasty pants. Suck on that Davy plug. Yeah. I'm Jack O'Brien.

1391
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: I host a daily, twice daily podcast with Miles Gray.

1392
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 1: It's called The Daily Zeitgeist. Uh and Yeah. In the morning,

1393
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:14,679
Speaker 1: we go through and try and tell you what's happening

1394
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:19,519
Speaker 1: in the Zeitgeist that day in the afternoon in the Zeitgeist, Jack,

1395
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:28,759
Speaker 1: I'll tell you it's pretty bad in the after today,

1396
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, um, check out the day. It's a lot

1397
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:36,759
Speaker 1: of fun. It doesn't it won't totally destroy your soul,

1398
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: although we're having more and more trouble, uh, sticking to

1399
01:17:40,439 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 1: that this week. But yeah, come, we we watched the

1400
01:17:45,120 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 1: whatever is in the Netflix top ten. We tell you

1401
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 1: about that, so you don't have to watch the bad stuff.

1402
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 1: It ends up being a lot of fun. Uh, So yeah,

1403
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 1: check it out. You can follow me on Twitter, Jack

1404
01:17:56,360 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 1: Underscore O'Brien, check out Jack under or O'Brien at the

1405
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 1: Twitter um, and and check out the Daily Zeitgeist. And

1406
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, obviously there will be more protests all around

1407
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:13,480
Speaker 1: the United States. Um by the time this this finally drops, Um,

1408
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 1: My advice to everyone who's asking it, because I've gotten

1409
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 1: so many emails from people asking is to go out

1410
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: and express your legal right to protest and to be

1411
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,240
Speaker 1: furious about the the situation we find ourselves in the

1412
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: many situations we find ourselves in, utilize your legal rights,

1413
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: protect yourself, and remember, most importantly, if you get tear gas,

1414
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: just use water to wash your eyes out. People have

1415
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: a lot of fancy fucking tear gas recipes. Just use water.

1416
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 1: It is idiot proof and it's fine. Bring water, pour

1417
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 1: it in your eyes outwards, from the eye from like

1418
01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:48,880
Speaker 1: the inside of the eye out. Don't fucking don't make

1419
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 1: it complicated. Don't go buy in gallons of milk. Just

1420
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 1: use water. If you use If you get tear gas,

1421
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 1: that's that's or put a traffic cone on on top

1422
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 1: of the tear gas can. Yeah, or some water in. Yeah.

1423
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 1: That's some good Hong Kong tactics right there. So um,

1424
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 1: good luck everybody, stay powerful. Good luck to you, Robert.

1425
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:15,920
Speaker 1: Don't get killed. Yeah h h