1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. You know, Julie, 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: we are basically our memories. We are. We are a 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: stack of cards. In each card is a memory, and 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: they form who we are. That that alone can be 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: kind of tricky to wrap your your head around, and 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: and it is kind of a simplification. But but still 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: we are made up of memories where where all these 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: these uh these recollections of things that have happened, things 11 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: we've learned, and they form who we are. So the 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: idea that some of those memories are false memories is 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: really fascinating. Yeah, because it means that part of what 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: we are is not factual. It's a fabrication and and 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: and it's and even more to the point, it's one 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: thing if you build some fabrication into who you are. 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: I'm a support Yeah, yeah, I try and believe something 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: that's not real every day, something new, you know, uh 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: and uh and build it up to him at least 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: fifty fifty. But but but the idea that there are 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: parts of us that we think are true, that are false. 22 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: That's that's the really fascinating and or chilling thing. Yeah, 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: and uh, what we're talking about is specifically a book 24 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: called Seventh Sins of Memory by Daniel Schockter. And he 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: was on a panel that you saw at the World 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: Science Festival covering memory and what happens with memory? Yes, 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: in New York City. Uh, as it was. Yeah, it 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: was a fascinating talk. We referred to to some of 29 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: the stuff that was brought up in our previous episode 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: on on memory. What do we talk about? That's what 31 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: happens when you record as many podcasts. That's that's a yeah, 32 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: false recall there. But but but but Yeah, as we've 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: discussed before, memory is uh is not this perfect thing. 34 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: It is a they in a sense, you could say 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: that it's it's a flawed system. It would be more 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: accurate to just say a memory is ephemeral because a 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: lot of the flaws that are there are a part 38 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: of its operating system, Like we can't remember everything, so 39 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: you're gonna forget things, um and uh, and in memories 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: are we were always having to update information. So there's 41 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: a potential for disaster there. And I know that we've 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: talked about this before that when you have a particularly 43 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: strong memory that has to do with like saying nine eleven, right, 44 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, where were you on nine eleven, that your 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: potential for recall is actually hindered by the fact that 46 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: you're a magdala isn't on high alert your emotional center 47 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: of your brain, so your hypocampus is not necessarily really 48 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: accurately recording things at that moment because your amingdala is 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: kind of taking over. So that's just one example of how, um, 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, you can come away from an experience having 51 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: really strong emotional feelings and saying, yes, I was there 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: and I was wearing this shirt and so on and 53 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: so forth, but um, you're actually hamstrung and your billy 54 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: to bring up those particular details, even if you feel 55 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: certain that that's the way it went down, right, and uh. 56 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: And it's also important to stress that memory is a 57 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: rather complex system. It's not just a situation of oh, 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: here's the part of my brain that does memory, and 59 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: it's doing memory right now. There it goes it remembered 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: something and then wrote a new memory. Now we have 61 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: There are several different types of memory, and they're all 62 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: sort of working in a in a chorus and uh, 63 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: uh you know, I mean it's it's very much like 64 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: an orchestra scenario where no no particular instrument is playing 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: the tune that everything together creates the song that you're hearing. 66 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: So you have things like episodic memory for events, semantic 67 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: memory for facts in general knowledge, uh, priming memory for 68 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: unconscious activation of memories and reminders. Conditioning from that Pavlovian 69 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: experience where the dog here's the dinner bell and starts 70 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: salivating even though the meal hasn't members in it. Yeah, 71 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: and the priming one is something we're gonna talk about 72 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: a little bit too, But that one is interesting. What 73 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: you're saying is you're can meeting sort of unconscious memories, 74 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: ain't even really aware of of this database that you're 75 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: building up. So in his book, Shackter lays out what 76 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: he calls the seven Deadly Sins of memory, and uh, 77 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating look at it. I mean there's some 78 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: bleed over between one and another, but uh, like the 79 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: three first that he goes through transience and that's just 80 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: basically I'm not going to remember, um, this fact from 81 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: ten years ago because my brain forgets things over time. 82 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty simple. Like when you and and then 83 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: there's gonna be this uh basic absent mindedness. And this 84 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: is where you don't remember what somebody told you because 85 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: you were you know, involved in another task or you 86 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: were driving and uh, you suddenly got distracted. You say, 87 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast while driving, and suddenly you 88 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: have to you have to deal with some sort of 89 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: near wreck experience. You're maybe hoping me not, but you're 90 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: probably not going to commit to memory, at least not 91 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: committed strongly. Um, whatever you're listening to on a podcast 92 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: or radio. Uh. Then there there's a also blocking And 93 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: this is what happens when you're like, oh, um, what 94 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: was the actor in the Yeah, the actor and the 95 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: thing which I do all the time, what was what 96 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: was that film with Val Kilmer in it where he 97 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: has a sword? You know that that kind of thing. 98 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: And you'll sit there and will be agonizing, you know 99 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: what was that person's name? And someone will be like 100 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: look it up an IMDb and you're like, no, I 101 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: have to think of myself. And for me, I'm always 102 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: like that guy that was wearing shoes and like never 103 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: giving anybody good clues and so from there he breaks 104 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: out some of the things that can happen. Some of 105 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: them are are sins that basically color memory, like suggestibility, 106 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: which is really fascinating his own right. This is this 107 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: is like, for instance, the scenario where um, the police 108 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: are grilling a witness to a crime and trying and 109 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: trying to find out like who is the who they 110 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: saw at the scene, and they will sometimes sometimes even 111 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: kind of unconsciously hint that this is the person you 112 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: should pick, so sort of like leading the witness leading 113 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: in the courtroom before, where it's like that line of 114 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: questioning is really putting that idea in your head. Yeah, 115 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: like if I was to say, so, Julie, your favorite 116 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: food is pizza, right, well, yes it is actually yes. 117 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: I mean that's kind of a horrible example, but but 118 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: I'm leading you. You know, It's like the the answers 119 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: and the question. The answer that I want is in 120 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: the question that I ask you, like cheese, like sauce? 121 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: Do I ever? And then there's also just persistence, which 122 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: is for instance, a traumatic memory that keeps showing up. 123 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: But the one that we're going to discuss in detail 124 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: today is misattribution. This is a particularly fascinating. This. This 125 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: is like memory distortion on steroids can be. Sometimes it 126 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: can be pretty simple, like a day to day thing. 127 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: There's a predictability factor that we rely on when we're 128 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: bringing up a memory, right, we're taking it out of 129 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: the drawer, and misattribution seems to fall prey to our 130 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: need to fit details into a framework right, even if 131 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: the pieces don't fit. Um. There's a kind of familiarity 132 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: that exists, right because you you have some of the 133 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: facts right, you have some of the facts wrong, but 134 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: your mind wants to try to square that and um, 135 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: so you know, even though it's it could be wrong, 136 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: it feels right to you because on some level you're 137 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: familiar with some of the details. And there a bunch 138 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: of examples of what misattribution can be. Like one of 139 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: the most most obvious ones would be an example of 140 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: where you try and remember, um, like where you met 141 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: somebody or a year and you end up the memory 142 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: is fine, except that there's a detail wrong in it, 143 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: or a couple of details wrong, and it's basically got 144 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: gotten a little mixed up, that your order has been 145 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: slightly mixed up. From the kitchen they bring they bring 146 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: you the burger you ordered, but they give you fries 147 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: instead of the side salad that you requested, right right. 148 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: So you actually recall something, but you might map it 149 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: to the wrong place or time or to the wrong person, 150 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: and then you've got an imagined event that you ascribe 151 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: to a reality. Which this is really fascinating, where we 152 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: end up remembering something as fact, like we remembering something 153 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: as action that we merely imagined or thought about doing. 154 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: And the great example of this is something happens to 155 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: me way too often, and that is where I'll leave 156 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: the house and I'll actually lock the door, but then 157 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: I'll check it again, double sure that I locked it, 158 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: or sometimes walked to the car and then walk back 159 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: and then check that I locked it again, which is 160 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: just unexcusable to come back for the third time. But 161 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: it's but I can't I can't remember if I thought 162 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: about locking it or I did lock it. The same 163 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: with the things like blowing out the candle in the 164 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: bathroom or turning off a burner. These are vital things 165 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: we need to do, and we're making the middle note, 166 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: do it, do it, do it, But then after the fact, 167 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: we can't remember did I just think about doing that? 168 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: Or did I actually do it? Did I imagine myself 169 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: doing it? And um, if you go on the World 170 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: Science Festival site, you'll actually see a clip of this 171 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: example in In the example, it's not necessarily the person 172 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: imagining themselves doing something or himself doing something, but it's 173 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: this clip of this guy talking about how for many 174 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: years he harbored this resentment against his cousin for ruining 175 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: his eighth birthday party by swinging the bat, the pinona, 176 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: all the candy out. So he sees his cousin at 177 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: some point, you know, a couple of years ago, he's 178 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: now an adult, and he says, remember that time that 179 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: you completely ruined my eighth birthday party? And his cousin says, 180 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: what are you talking about. I was away at summer 181 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: camp at your eighth birthday party. And he said that 182 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: he immediately realized that he had concocted this, this memory, 183 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: and it's just just like that. He thought, Oh, that's 184 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: completely right, this he was at summer camp. And I 185 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: think that's fascinating. And I know that there are examples 186 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: for myself that you know, I've done the same thing. Um, 187 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, our minds kind of conjure these 188 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: these alternate realities. These are these are basically um binding errors, 189 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: um binding failures. Even in memory binding and and again 190 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: they you basically have two kinds um I mean memory 191 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: binding is the is the gluing together of various components 192 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: of an experience into a whole. Is the bringing together 193 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: of the different um the saw had the main dish, 194 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: the garnish, and the condiments into the complete order. And 195 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: in a binding failure, the the time that the event 196 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: occurs at the action or the object, et cetera, is 197 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: not bound to the particular time and place. And again 198 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: it can It can deal with with real events and 199 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: just sort of mix them around or imagined or just 200 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: purely thought about events. Yeah. Yeah, So that's really interesting 201 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: that you'd have to have that sort of sequential binding 202 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: in your head. Otherwise things kind of go awry if 203 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: you don't have that glue in place. In the books, 204 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: Actor describes an experiment where younger and older adults were 205 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: shown one object and then as to imagine a second object. 206 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: All right, So in the first case they had them imagine, say, 207 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: a magnifying glass. So that's easy to imagine, you know, 208 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: it's like a stick with a round thing. At the 209 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: top that you look through to see, you know. Um. 210 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: And then they imagined that they saw that they actually 211 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: saw a magnifying class there it is, so the actual 212 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: object with it. And then they imagined a lollipop, and 213 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: a lollipop is also a stick with a own thing 214 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: at the top, but with an entirely different purpose. Um. 215 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: Then they also did a dissimilar thing where it was 216 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: like a screwdriver and a coat hanger. And when they 217 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: looked at at the results, they found that that older 218 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: adults were more likely to say they'd actually seen the lolly, 219 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: which yeah, But but they had a number of tests 220 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: subbosely that were actually said, yeah, I saw the law, 221 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: you showed it to me. So the examples of of 222 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: the thing we imagine in the thing we perceived becoming confused, 223 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: which is more it's more likely when there is some 224 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: sort of semantic link between the two. Yeah, yeah, Well, 225 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: and again there's that familiarity, right, it's the context, and 226 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: it gives a sort of fire to your convictions. And 227 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: you do see that more in the elderly, who rely 228 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: on that sense of familiarity to corroborate their memories, and 229 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: they have a harder time recalling specific recollections. You also 230 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: see this sometimes uh like the misuh the misattribution of 231 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: the source of a memory, and that this may have 232 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: happened to a number of you. Where are you So 233 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: you hear something from a friend and then you misremember 234 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: it as being something you saw on the news, which 235 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: can get you into some trouble sometime if you're you know, 236 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: in a dinner party and you're like, oh, yeah, such, 237 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: such and such, and then people were like, I don't 238 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: think that's right. I think you you may have got 239 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: the wrong You're like, no, I saw that on Fox News. 240 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: It must be true. Well, seeing I was thinking about that, 241 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: and I was thinking, that is why language is so 242 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: flawed for us. And of course it's great because it's 243 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: what we have to communicate with each other with. But 244 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: I was thinking, here's here's a good example of something 245 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: like the health care bill in the United States. This 246 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: conversation began to happen around it, and there are all 247 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: sorts of bits of information, information that's unleashed and and 248 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: some of that has been misremembered, intentionally or not. And 249 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: you have these conversations going on and it's being processed 250 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: by the public at large, and then mass confusion ensues 251 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: and you're talking about things like the death panels and 252 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, yeah, I really have any any any origin. 253 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: In fact, it was more about people coloring the debate 254 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: with exaggerated ideas or just misconstruing information. And maybe they 255 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: weren't trying to do that intentionally, but I think it's 256 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: fascinating that you have this black and white document that exists, 257 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: and yet the reality that's been created around it, or 258 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,599 Speaker 1: had been created around I guess depending on how you 259 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: look at it, uh, is quite different from what the 260 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: actual document is. And a lot of this I think 261 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: again has there's that suggestibility factor and um this uh 262 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: also this the the wrong source, right, because you could 263 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: sit around in a dinner party and mistake what someone 264 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: might say at the table for fact that was you know, 265 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: reported Fox News or NBC, and so it just really 266 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: muddles the conversations that we have and the reality of 267 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: of um of what we're all looking at. You know. Yeah. 268 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: Another possibility is that if you're watching say twenty four 269 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: hour news show, and you don't really end up in 270 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: remembering whether you heard something on an opinion based section 271 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: or um a more a factual news report. Um, you 272 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: know it's the same. Gonna go with a you know, 273 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 1: a newspaper did you get on the opinion page or 274 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: from the like the ap stories right? Or a blog 275 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: right that it's that a blog that's been researched and 276 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: documented or is it just someone's blog that says I 277 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: hate Monday's right. Well, I like in my own research 278 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: for articles, here at how stuff works. Like, sometimes I'll 279 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: find myself in a situation where and we'recalling a fact 280 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: from the research I've done, and I have to I 281 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: try to steer away from even looking at sources that 282 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: I that could potentially be problematic because ideally, like I've heard, 283 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: like some people can argue that, say, a Wikipedia article 284 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: is a good starting place for legitimate research because even 285 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: though you you have to cast out on the article itself, 286 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: since anybody can update it and in quality varies sometimes 287 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: right in quality very significantly. There's some fine Wikipedia articles 288 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: out there, but then there are some that are just 289 00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: really incorrect, really flawed, or poorly written. So some people 290 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: say start there, then you know, use that as a 291 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: jumping off place for real research. But the problem there 292 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: is that you'll run across other facts you'll start putting 293 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: together an article or something, and then you'll put something 294 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: in and you'll misremember the source. So something you ended 295 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: up thinking is from say this New York Times article 296 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: or something published in a perior view journal is actually 297 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: from the Wikipedia article or a blog referring to one 298 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: of the uh, the primary sources and uh, and it 299 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: just gets confusing. So it's a topsy turvy world. All right, 300 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 301 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at a little something called a memory 302 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: conjunction error and how you and I could possibly be 303 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: ripping off things without us even knowing we're doing it. 304 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: This podcast is brought to you by Intel, the sponsors 305 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel, we believe 306 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join us at 307 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: curiosity dot com and explore the answers to life's questions. 308 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: And we're back. So memory conjunction air. This is another 309 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: fascinating aspect of misattribution UM where two memories are combined 310 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: into one. Generally, this is going to revolve around words 311 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: and faces and uh, and with with words especially, it's uh, 312 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: it's important that there's some sort of semantic link there 313 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: is that the example of Varnish and Spaniel, and sometimes 314 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: people mistake that for Spanish. Right they've seen or they've 315 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: seen that sort of sequence and they think, oh, I 316 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: heard the word Spanish. Yeah, there's list of a semantic 317 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: link there, but more of a like a linguistic link. 318 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: I guess that's the sound of the words. You know, 319 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: like you're you're You're probably not going to have a 320 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: memory conjunction error involving like two things that are completely different. 321 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: But say you didn't know anything about wrap and you 322 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: were introduced, because it will it will actually like happen 323 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: with you know, people you're introduced to, Like if you're 324 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: in a in some sort of line of work or 325 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: just in your social life, find yourself meeting a lot 326 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: of new people, you may have a memory conjunction error 327 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: um when you try to recall information about them later, 328 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: Like say you're introduced to Snoop Dogg and Little Wayne, 329 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: both rappers, and if you weren't familiar with them, you 330 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: might instead remember that you met one person like a 331 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: name like little Dog or you did it correctly or 332 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: a little Snoop Snoop or something yeah, so um and 333 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: But then even crazier is it can occur with faces 334 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: where you'll meet two people with similar faces and then 335 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: you'll commit to memory a face that is um a 336 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: combination of the two, which is so great, Yeah, and 337 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: so like that your mind would construct this third person 338 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: out of the two people. Like a lot of what 339 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about with memory, it does raise some problematic 340 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: questions when the memory is important, because it's one thing 341 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: if you just met some people at a party and 342 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: then you get their names mixed up, or you know, 343 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: if it's some piddling thing you know where you you 344 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: accidentally say that you're, you know, the source of some 345 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: little news it was in New York Times when it 346 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: was really Washington Post or something. But when people's lives 347 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: are on the line, when you have criminal investigations and 348 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: witness testimonies. Yeah, And one of the best examples of 349 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: this is Donald Thompson, who is a memory researcher himself. Yeah, 350 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: Australian guy, and uh, he was arrested one morning in 351 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: connection with this rudal right, horrible saw it on this 352 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: lady who said, this is the guy, he was there, 353 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: this is the one arrested him. She was so sure 354 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: of it that police were actually able to track him 355 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: down by the way he looked right like she had 356 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: this idea of him cemented in her mind. Yeah, and 357 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: so they brought him in. But the thing is, Donald 358 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: Thompson had this just air tight alibi because he would 359 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: at the time of the attack, he was doing a 360 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: live TV interview and I ironically enough, he was talking 361 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: about the the the ephemeral nature of memory and about 362 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: false memories while this is going on. But the person 363 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,239 Speaker 1: was like, no, that's him, this is the guy, that's right. 364 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: So while while she was being attacked, while she was 365 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: being raped, she was that that television program was on, 366 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: and she actually encoded his face onto the rapist face. Yeah, 367 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: it was a misastribution of of the face to the 368 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: wrong context or the wrong context to the right face, 369 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: which I mean, it's such a simple example of of this, uh, 370 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: but but just such a telling one. The idea that 371 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: she saw the face on the TV and then that 372 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: becomes the face fixed in the memory of the event. Well, 373 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: and then she had mentioned though that the big takeaway 374 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: from this is that I eye witness testimony is just 375 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: egregiously flawed. In the nineteen eighties, more than seventy five 376 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: thousand criminal trials per year were decided on the basis 377 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: of eyewitness testimony. This is from Daniel stractor Um who 378 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: wrote about this in several different articles. Uh. And then 379 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: another point that he likes to make is that in 380 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: an analysis of forty cases in which DNA exonerated wrongfully 381 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: imprisoned people, thirty six of them were put in the 382 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: clinker because of eyewitness testimony. So it's really one of 383 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: those things you need to back up and actually look 384 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: at the system and how it's conducted um eyewitness testimony 385 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: and UM and in fact, Janet Reno I believe tried 386 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: to reform this system and has to a certain degree. 387 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: And most police departments now when they do lineups, they 388 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: don't necessarily bring everybody in the room. Uh. And the 389 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: reason is is because even though you could have the 390 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: say someone um stole your wallet, even even if you 391 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: had the thief in that lineup, there could be someone 392 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: that looked a lot like that thief. In your mind 393 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: is misremembering and then uh fingering the other person who 394 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: is innocent because they look like the thief. So now 395 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: they're starting to take people in one at a time 396 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: so that your mind doesn't get too confused and you 397 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: can actually sort of fare it out, you know, yes 398 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: or no, is this the person that did it? But 399 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: even then, as we've discussed, the memory memory in them 400 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: is complex and flawed enough as it is, without the 401 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: without the the the investigation process, making it even worse. Yeah, yeah, 402 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: and yeah, you cannot do away with with uh this 403 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: you know, wholesale, because this is the person you know, 404 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: to which this act was uh, that this act happened to. 405 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: So you've got to have some sort of credence and 406 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: those details that some of that is going to be true. 407 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: There's another story that the chapter brings up in his 408 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: book that that I found particularly fascinating, and this involves 409 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: a British photographer who they just referred to by the 410 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: initials Mr. And this is the early nineties photographer you know, 411 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: deals with with a lot of faces in his time. 412 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: And he's I believe it was in London. He's, you know, 413 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: a lot of crowds around, and uh, he suddenly noticed 414 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 1: that he started seeing some more celebrities than usual, you know. 415 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: And you live in any big city or even a 416 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, small smaller cities, occasionally you're gonna see somebody 417 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, is that is that Brad Pitt? 418 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: Is that you know William Schatton out front? Turner? Yeah, 419 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: Bonnie's my my wife, Bonnie, her dad looks kind of 420 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: like Ted Turner. Um. So he has been mistaken for 421 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: Ted Turner on on a few occasions where people are like, 422 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: I think they've actually come up and asked him before. 423 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: That's awesome. I hope he runs with that, just pretends 424 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: like he always has a Bison burger in his hand. Yeah. 425 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: But but this guy said, you know, he was noticing 426 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: it a little more often than his than his normal 427 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: because there's one thing to be like, oh I think 428 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: I saw that actor on on the tube this morning. Uh. No, 429 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: he was. He was seeing it regularly, and he'd be 430 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: out with his wife and he would he would be like, 431 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: is that who I think it is over there? And 432 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: she would like be like, no, I don't think that's anybody. 433 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: I think you're mistaken, And he got so strong that 434 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: he was. He would be he just feel compelled to 435 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: go and approach these people and and be like you're 436 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: you know, you're Brad Pitt or you're you know whoever, 437 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: and they would look at him like he was crazy. 438 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: So he went to the doctor and he found out 439 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: that he had multiple sclerosis, which had compromised his frontal lobe, 440 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: which is involved in the consolidation of information from short 441 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: term to long term as well as like spatial navigation. 442 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: When you see a face that looks sort of familiar, 443 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: we all have this happen, you know, where at first glance, 444 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: it looks like someone we know or a famous person, 445 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: and then we realize it's not. So when you see 446 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: the face, there's a part of the brain that identifies 447 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: it as a familiar face. Yeah, like your pattern recognition software. Yeah. 448 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: And then but there's another section that has all the 449 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: ideas and all the biographical information that kind of fact 450 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: checks the initial report. What so one part says, hey, 451 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: I think that's Brad Pitt over there, and the other 452 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: part of your brain says, no, that's not Brad pet 453 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: because he actually looks a little different and he would 454 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: never dress like that, you know, thanks like that. In 455 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: this British photographer, Mr, the frontal lobe damage had made 456 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: it so that his brain didn't sufficiently scrutinize the signals 457 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: that were generated by the weakly activated facial recognition system. 458 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: In his brain. So was it the fact checker that 459 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: was down? Yeah, but or basically the the connection between 460 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: the two the signals were. It's kind of like in 461 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: the in like a movie where one person is telling 462 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: the other what to say to like a radio headset, 463 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: and the signal gets distorted so that the ancication from 464 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: this hilarity us and hilarity us we're in this case 465 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: um not not exactly hilaritous no, no, no, But I 466 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: do think it's interesting that his his database, his backup 467 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: database with celebrities, you know, as a photographer. Yeah, well, 468 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: I think and also I mean celebrity is they're the 469 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: modern deities of our pop culture. So even though we 470 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: don't know like Madonna, we have seen so many images 471 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: of her, and we have biographical information, we have biographical informations, 472 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: so it's almost as if we do know her, even 473 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: though we don't have personal knowledge of her. Um. And 474 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: it's just this tail us just so fascinating too, because 475 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: it underlies just how complex memory is, that there are 476 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: multiple systems going on in something as simple as saying, hey, 477 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: is that who I think it is? Oh no, it's 478 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: not right, and that you could have some of the 479 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: smother wiring just not quite right, and then of a 480 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: sudden you're seeing Madge everywhere. So let's get to plagiarism 481 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: and uh yeah, amnesia. This is pretty fascinating and scary, 482 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: especially for us since we work uh in a field 483 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: of composed of research and writing well, and there's so 484 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: much research that we're filtering on a day to day 485 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: basis that Yeah. Um. I first became aware of it 486 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: when we were talking about the music podcast not excuse me, 487 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 1: not music, but dreaming and you know what, what can 488 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: happen in our dreams? And Paul McCartney when he wrote Yesterday, 489 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: he wrote it in a dream, woke up and immediately 490 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: went to the piano and he was fearful that he 491 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: had actually ripped that off, which is called kryptome kryptomnesia. 492 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, there's a there's a great scene in the 493 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: by the way, Yeah, um, not in this and maybe 494 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: he had access into the world through his dreams and 495 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: still there from a parallel universe, parallel Paul. There's a 496 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: there's a great example of this in the HBO series 497 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: trem ay Um that takes place in New Orleans does 498 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: with the Aftermathickatrina, where there is a violinist and she's 499 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: trying to write her first song, and she she worked 500 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: really hard on this, and she's so proud of it 501 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: when she finished, and she plays it for a couple 502 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: of friends and they're like, oh, that that's sounds good, 503 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: and they don't have the heart to break it to 504 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: her that she just played a Bob Dylan song. Uh see. 505 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: And and so that's exactly what ends up happening with people. 506 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: Crypto Amnesia is when we produce from memory another person's writings, 507 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: writings or ideas, and and we end up having a 508 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: memory misattribution going on, and that we don't remember that 509 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: it was this other person's ideas. We we idea, we 510 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: think it's our own, we think it's a novel thought. 511 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: And you can see this just at the very basic levels. 512 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: If you've ever been in a meeting and you've said 513 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: something or you've heard someone else say something, and then 514 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: like you know, on to five minutes later, someone else says, hey, 515 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: I've got this idea, and they say the exact same thing. 516 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: It happens all the time. I'm sure I've done that. 517 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure I've ripped off people ideas and meeting before 518 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: you just don't even know that you're doing it right, 519 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: because you're processing this is new information to you. Um. Yeah. 520 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: Unintentional plagiarism has been examined in a number of studies, 521 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: and there there was one where people were asked to 522 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: generate examples of particular categories of items, like a species 523 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: of bird, and they were found that up without realizing, 524 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: people plagiarized each other about four percent of the time, 525 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: and subsequent studies using more like natural procedures have found 526 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: even higher rates like that, sometimes as much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 527 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: And it involves that thing that we talked about before, 528 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: which is called priming, And that's the unconscious influence of memory. Right, 529 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: your brain activates certain words or ideas and and just 530 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: kind of files them away, and then when you go 531 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: to create something novel concerning that topic, then then you're, 532 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, unconsciously bringing up those exact words. And we've 533 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: seen those time and time and again in history. In fact, 534 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: Carl Young was looking through some of Nietzie's writings and 535 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: found a couple of paragraphs that were completely ripped off. 536 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: He probably didn't even know it from another person. Uh, 537 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: they were there, stunningly, some familiar and similar to each 538 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: other that Uh, you know, there are times that people 539 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: will take whole passages that they don't even realize that 540 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: they've committed to memory and bring them up just you know, 541 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: and it's sort of one of those things You're like, 542 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: why can't I have that sort of uh memory recall 543 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: when I want it and not when I want it? 544 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: But it's gonna gonna actually hurt my career, right, And 545 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: I've been counted that too, in like in the newspapers. 546 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: Remember one incident where a writer ended up being accused 547 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: of plagiarism and and at the time, I was kind 548 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: of like, wow, how why did they do this? Because 549 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: this person would never do do this, you know, because 550 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: it's as a writer you don't. I mean, it's the 551 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: worst thing that could happen pretty much as far as 552 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: your your actual career performance, because done intentionally, it's like 553 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: the lowest, laziest thing. But is this really underlines it? 554 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: It's not always an intentional act it there. Sometimes it's 555 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: just about the flawed nature of memory that we end 556 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: up recalling a source word for word, uh, when we 557 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: and think that those are our words on the page. Yeah. 558 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: They had another example in the seven sins um a 559 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: shocked her did and it was of George Daniels, who 560 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: wrote Science in American Society, and it was it was 561 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: doing really well. I got released and you know, great reviews, 562 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: and and then as he was sort of going through it, 563 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: he realized that he had quoted directly from a number 564 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: of sources, not ever meaning to thinking that those were 565 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: his complete novel thoughts. And he was completely horrified and 566 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: in fact came out and said, WHOA, I didn't realize that, 567 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, these sources had gotten in my brain to 568 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: the extent that I was actually plagiarizing, which I believe them, 569 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: because you know, I think that he was. You know, 570 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: he had that moment of let me look back at 571 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: my my book that I created, and then all of 572 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: a sudden, that false, the falsity of that memory started 573 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: to fall away. Yeah. For our final section here, one 574 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: of the things that that really fascinated me reading about 575 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: mis attribution is, like we we talked about before, it's 576 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: the idea that these these memories form who we are, 577 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: and the idea that there could be a false memory 578 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: and they're making us up, composing who we are, and 579 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: we don't realize that it's false. But here's an even 580 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: crazier idea, then imagine we could scan the brain and 581 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: by scanning the brain tell if a memory is false 582 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: or not, even if we have no idea, and this 583 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: is it sounds very sci fi, but is in fact 584 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: something that we can do and has been done. Chapter 585 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: actually scans some brains with some test subject while just 586 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: for fun, well while they were citing list of words, uh, 587 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: and they were correctly and false recalling some of the 588 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: words in the list. And he reported that while the 589 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: scans were very similar, they were quote cantalyzing hints of difference. Yeah, 590 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: there have been a number of studies since then looking 591 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: into exactly what's going on um and and the idea 592 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: is that there's you know, there's that that fact checking 593 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: process similar to the whole I see the face, and 594 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: then another section of the brain determines whether or not 595 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: that that familiar faces actually who we think it think 596 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: it is. Some more things are going on. So the 597 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: idea is there's something in that activity and that fact 598 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: checking that can be scan and and therefore there'll be 599 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: some sort of little tell tale sign that that this 600 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: memory that you just recalled is flawed. So there's been 601 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: a number of additional studies since then, and looking at 602 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: them you'll see the results fall on both sides, but 603 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: a number of them do point to the idea that 604 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: there is a slight difference occurring when a false memory 605 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: is brought to mind as opposed to a true memory, 606 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: because you can see the basically the the fact checking 607 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: section of the brain is weaker in false memories. Okay, yeah, 608 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: sh doctor says this too, which I think is interesting. 609 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,479 Speaker 1: Beyond an exercise and scientific fortune telling, these studies managed 610 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: to trace some of the roots of transience to the 611 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: split second encoding operations that take place during the birth 612 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: of a memory. What happens in frontal and temporal regions 613 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: during those critical moments determines, at least in part, whether 614 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: an experience will be remembered for a lifetime or drop 615 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: into the oblivion of the forgotten, which I think is 616 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: fascinating that you can take these scans and you can 617 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: see a fall memory at work. Yeah, and it's the 618 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: mere fact that it's like the the the illusion of 619 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: a false memory becomes a part of the illusion of 620 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: who we are, and then the machine can see through 621 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: the self believing illusion. It's just mind blown to me. 622 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: I think so too. And I think that that we 623 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: should end the podcast by by doing a little exercise. 624 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: And this was actually done on the panel that you attended, right, 625 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: And this is this is a little test to see 626 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: how good your memory is. And this is the one 627 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: that they used at the World Science Festival. It's a 628 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: word list and I'm going to repeat some words and 629 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: I just want you guys to to listen for a 630 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: moment I really think about them. Here's the word list. Candy, sour, sugar, bitter, good, 631 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: taste tooth, nice, honey, soda, chocolate, heart cake, eat pie. Okay, okay, 632 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: this is the list. And this list, of course is 633 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: bringing up a bunch of ideas for you, right, there 634 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: are some associations for you. Um and what semantic link 635 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: going on? Yeah, there's a semantic link. There's there's a 636 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: story that your idea is conjuring right now and shocked. 637 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: He actually does this to the audience and then he 638 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: reads out some of the words to test whether or 639 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: not people have actually remembered or misremembered something on that list. Now, 640 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: that's a long list, but it's interesting because there could 641 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: be a suggestibility factor here, right, Okay, So here's the test. 642 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: How about the word taste. Was the word taste on 643 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: that list? Yes, yes, okay, you're right correct? Good? What 644 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: about the word point no correct dissimilar from everything on 645 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: the list? Yeah? Yeah, that just kind of stands out, 646 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: doesn't it. Okay, Um, we got a couple more words. 647 00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: What about the word sweet? Yes, no, it was not see, 648 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: but the semantic link is there. I just assume sweet 649 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: because everything else was around right, right, But you can't 650 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: help it, right because your your brain is already making 651 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: the framework in that connection, that familiarity that we talked 652 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: about that makes us feel certain about the decisions or 653 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: the memories that come up for us. So I don't know, 654 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from from the audience about 655 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: whether or not they also I thought that sweet was 656 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: part of that list, because in the audience that I 657 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: think the majority of people, yeah, we were like, yeah, yeah, totally. 658 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: We heard that. Maybe some people were you know, hip 659 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: to what he was doing, and they were, well, yeah, 660 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: the panelists are like they all had that trush our 661 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 1: cat smile, or they had their and their their iPad 662 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: out and they were like jotting them down if they 663 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: they were said, which is cheating. But for the record, 664 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: But hey, if any of you have any any comments 665 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: on on this, if you have some experiences with false 666 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: memory you'd like to share, be they simple things that 667 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: occur every day, or if you have some of the 668 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: fun nominal Star story you would like to tell us 669 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: so we would love to hear about it. You can 670 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook and Twitter, we'll blow the Mind 671 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: on both of those, and you can also drop us 672 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: an email at blow the Mind at how stuffworks dot com. 673 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our new video podcast, Stuff 674 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as we 675 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.