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Speaker 1: Ah, Welcome back to the Conspiracy Cast with Robert Evans,

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Speaker 1: where every week I try to put irresponsibly out something

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Speaker 1: that sends a chunk of our listeners down a very

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Speaker 1: dark road. Now, Margaret, you were just telling us all

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Speaker 1: that you've been snowed in recently. Yeah, why why don't

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Speaker 1: you talk to me about that? Just a little bit? Okay,

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Speaker 1: it snows. I live rurally. I can only I can

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Speaker 1: get out with my you know, giant pickup truck or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but the mail can't cut up the driveway, the gravel road.

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Speaker 1: So you you, you were, you were? You know what

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Speaker 1: happens when there's so much snow that it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: leave your house. How would you describe that state of affairs?

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Speaker 1: I love it. I'm a prepper. My house is completely

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Speaker 1: self sustaining even if the power out. I like, yeah, Margaret,

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Speaker 1: is it true that you secretly were in the United

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Speaker 1: States military and stole government documents? Oh, I'm snowed in.

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Speaker 1: That took a lot of setup. That was mostly failure,

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Speaker 1: but I know it in the end, was it was it? Really? Uh? Yep?

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Speaker 1: It sure was. I was surprised that you're you're sticking

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Speaker 1: to these like low level. I mean that stuff you

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Speaker 1: were just saying is true, but I'm surprised that you

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Speaker 1: haven't gotten into the real conspiracy about how gold is

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Speaker 1: actually corrosive and it destroys your brain if you're near

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Speaker 1: large quantities of it. Wow, Margaret, I mean, what's the

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Speaker 1: responsible thing to do then with all of your gold?

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Speaker 1: If you have it and you can feel it impacting

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Speaker 1: your brain, Robert, you should bury your gold. I think

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Speaker 1: that's too dangerous. I think people need to send their

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Speaker 1: gold to our po box and our actually trained a

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Speaker 1: romancers will will will decontaminate the gold, um, and and

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Speaker 1: find a safe place to bury it. We'll put the

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Speaker 1: Midas touch. That's right, that's our motto. Is this the

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Speaker 1: last episode of the series. This is the last episode

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Speaker 1: of the series. All right, we have to we have

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Speaker 1: to we have to get we have to get all

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Speaker 1: of all the last bits in now before him. That's right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of ending, um, it's about to be the

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Speaker 1: end of Carrie's life. UM. Not a particularly long life. UM,

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Speaker 1: with the exception of Bob Wilson, Uh, none of like

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Speaker 1: the kind of most prominent early Discordians live crazy long life.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of them that there's a lot of guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah JFK still bouncing around down in Texas after fighting

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Speaker 1: that mummy. Yeah. Um yeah, so he's he's kind of

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Speaker 1: like the last years of his life he spends rambling

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Speaker 1: throughout the South and making zines in Atlanta's little Five

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Speaker 1: Points neighborhood. Um, one of the ways he gets by

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Speaker 1: kind of he never really makes a profit at it.

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Speaker 1: But like if you if you send him a dollar,

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Speaker 1: he will send you a bunch of random wall newspapers.

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Speaker 1: And if you send him a letter saying I don't

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Speaker 1: have any money, he'll also send you a bunch of

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Speaker 1: random wall newspapers. Basically, if you send carry either currency

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Speaker 1: or anything else, he'll send you a bunch of his zines.

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Speaker 1: And that's just he's kind of able to maintain a

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Speaker 1: marginal like living by doing that. We do but with gold.

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Speaker 1: If you send us gold, we will either send you

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Speaker 1: a zine or not. Yeah, one of those two things

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Speaker 1: will happen. And if you later encounter razine in like

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Speaker 1: a bar or something, just assume that was us too, YEA.

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Speaker 1: In that way, if you don't receive anything, you won't

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Speaker 1: feel ripped off. Now, the other thing that's happens in

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Speaker 1: this is that like again, all these kind of like

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Speaker 1: punk kids are coagulating in little five Points because it's

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Speaker 1: a place you can get by without having sort of

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Speaker 1: a very regular income. There's not like a lot of

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Speaker 1: attention from the local government on that part of down yet,

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Speaker 1: and all of these people, particularly a lot of young

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Speaker 1: punk ladies, find Carrie and kind of adopt him as

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Speaker 1: a guru. Um he should not be yes, um this

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Speaker 1: there there are some problems with this, these these young

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Speaker 1: women who call themselves the thorn Lyett's um. Because that's

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Speaker 1: not that's not good for Carrie. That's not the thing

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Speaker 1: what this guy's brain needs. UM. Now Again, Carrie never

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Speaker 1: seeks treatment in or help in any meaningful way. UM,

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Speaker 1: and his conspiratorial beliefs continue to evolve. This starts with

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Speaker 1: kind of his anger at his ex wife, but it

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Speaker 1: eventually he becomes convinced that both her and every woman

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Speaker 1: that he has ever slept with, like every woman who

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Speaker 1: approaches him, who hits on him, are all part of

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy. They're all Nazis who were secretly sent over

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Speaker 1: to the United States to have sex with him and

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Speaker 1: breed a future fearer. UM. No, though he is. He

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Speaker 1: is just like fully solid into his own his own

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Speaker 1: hole that he does yeah, yeah, and you know that's

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Speaker 1: actually very sad. But it is also like the kid

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Speaker 1: on TikTok. There's a kid on TikTok who's like a

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Speaker 1: fan fiction kid who like does yeah, some sort of

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Speaker 1: part of nerd culture I'm not familiar with, but he

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Speaker 1: has convinced himself that he's the reincarnation of Adolph Hitler

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Speaker 1: and has gotten a like nose piercing that when his

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Speaker 1: Harris styled a certain way, he looks kind of like,

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Speaker 1: honestly not a bad resemblance. And I'm gonna be again,

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Speaker 1: to be totally fair, if Hitler was reincarnated, that's exactly

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Speaker 1: the kind of person he'd be in twenty twenty three. Robert, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Robert can't take all the blame for that one. No, no,

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Speaker 1: get it, get get get ready for the six part

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Speaker 1: series on twink Hitler. Oh, that's that's going to be

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Speaker 1: more than six parts. Garrison Behind the Twinkler. We're just

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Speaker 1: launching a new weekly. Oh god, keeping up with him. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: one thing that seems undeniable is that Carrie's belief in

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy behind the JFK assassination only deepened with time.

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Speaker 1: He came to be convinced that he was a central

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Speaker 1: part of the plot, and one of his last public

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Speaker 1: appearances was in nineteen ninety two on a TV show

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Speaker 1: called A Current Affair. We're gonna play a segment from

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Speaker 1: this let's just let's just watch this incredible piece of

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineties television starring our friend Carrie Thornley. He emerges

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Speaker 1: from the shadow, Okay, grim shadows that have cost up

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Speaker 1: all over a man with a frightening secret, a terrible boast.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to shooting. I wanted to assassinate him very much.

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Speaker 1: You've just seen and heard a man called Carrie Thornley

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Speaker 1: use the exotic background of New Orleans as his headquarters

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Speaker 1: for a deranged plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy's

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Speaker 1: one regret his good friend of marine buddy Lehi Voswald

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Speaker 1: got there before him. In fact, he was so close

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Speaker 1: to Oswald that he even read a book about him

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Speaker 1: before the assassination. Now again, listen to the words that

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Speaker 1: Terry Thornley and shot up. I wanted him dead. I

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Speaker 1: would have shot him myself. I would have stood there

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Speaker 1: with a rival and pulled the trigger if I'd had

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Speaker 1: the chance. Terry Thornley talked for the first time in

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Speaker 1: history about the hybrillest competition imaginable a rate to kill

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Speaker 1: President Kennedy, and Thornley wants the world to know he tried.

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Speaker 1: He's heart I told the Secret Service. I said, the

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Speaker 1: only reason I didn't kill him was because I wasn't

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Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time with a gun.

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Speaker 1: The world met Terry Thornley in the nineteen sixty four,

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Speaker 1: So you see what's happened here at number one, Kerry.

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Speaker 1: It's moved on from like you know, I was mind

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Speaker 1: controlled to like I had my own plan to kill Kennedy,

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Speaker 1: and I was like fighting with Oswald to pull it off.

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Speaker 1: But what's really happening here, more than anything, is that

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Speaker 1: these like sleazy daytime TV fucks are using a very

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Speaker 1: sick man in order to make content, Like this is

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Speaker 1: his mustache. They stole his mustache. He does have like

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Speaker 1: an amish beard do, but that's pretty messed up, like

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Speaker 1: he's they it's very They're like framing all of this

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Speaker 1: almost like an episode of like Unsolved Mysteries. In between

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Speaker 1: as they cut through to like this footage of Carrie

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Speaker 1: walking down like a darkened street and everything. It's pretty exploitative.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's kind of like the last big public

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Speaker 1: thing that Carrie does. And I'm not one for conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 1: It is kind of sad. I'm not, you know, one

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Speaker 1: for conspiracies, but from just in order to be perfectly responsible,

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Speaker 1: I do think I need to show you both the

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Speaker 1: logo for the show that he has his last appearance on.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's a pyramid. It's a pyramid. Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: pyramid directly behind the current affair logo. So interesting. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: What a year was this? Um, this is nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: So this is this is a year after after he

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Speaker 1: published zen Archy, which is kind of one of one

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Speaker 1: of a weirdly long lasting text that he wrote towards

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Speaker 1: the end of his life. Yeah. Um, and yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's kind of his last like TV type appearance, although

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Speaker 1: I think the last appearance he actually makes is right

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Speaker 1: before he passes on. He dies in ninety eight. Um,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of because Discordians were some of the very

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Speaker 1: first people on the Internet. We're talking like Usenet days,

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Speaker 1: and like there were a bunch of different kind of

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Speaker 1: fan websites to Thornley and Bob Anton Wilson and all

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Speaker 1: all of these other guys, and one of them gets

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Speaker 1: him and like sits down with him and conducts a

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Speaker 1: live chat session interview where a bunch of Discordians around

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Speaker 1: the world are able to like ask him questions. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of the first times anyone had

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Speaker 1: done this. This is the late nineteen nine, so there's

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Speaker 1: not a lot of people who beat him to that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. That is now like the language through

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Speaker 1: which fandoms are conducted, which is also interesting. I was

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Speaker 1: terminally online in the late nineties and I was telling

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Speaker 1: Garrison about this, that a lot of overlap with them

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Speaker 1: Discordian and especially like Church of SubGenius and all of

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things, and so it's just like that

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Speaker 1: just really tracks to me. And it was like these

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Speaker 1: like slightly older people who were like the cool weirdos

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Speaker 1: on the internet that I was like, whoa, look at

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Speaker 1: these cool weirdos on the Internet. I would go on

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Speaker 1: IRC chat and like, yeah, meet all these Discordians. Now. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: Carrie in the state that he's in, is not taking

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Speaker 1: He's not like visiting a doctor regularly, and he also

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Speaker 1: just doesn't have access to particularly good healthcare, and this

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Speaker 1: becomes particularly a problem when he gets evicted by the city.

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Speaker 1: They kind of like coming in clean house and Little

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Speaker 1: five Points and kick out a lot of like the

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Speaker 1: crusty radicals. And so he and a bunch of yeah

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Speaker 1: these kids all wind up sleeping in a very specific

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Speaker 1: forest in Atlanta, where he gets sick and is eventually

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Speaker 1: hospitalized and dies. Um. Wild. That happens in November of

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight. He is sixty years old when this occurs. Um,

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Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I think that's interesting. Um. And that's

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Speaker 1: the specific forest that is now being turned into copsody

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Speaker 1: as far as I can tell. Yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: it's right outside a Little five Points. If if you

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Speaker 1: have more details on that, I could I could probably

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Speaker 1: confirm that, um, if he has not found them, but

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Speaker 1: I yeah, it's worth looking into because it I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is the Melanni Forest is just like a few

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Speaker 1: miles directly south from Little five Points. There is there's

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Speaker 1: a road that connects you straight from from a Little

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Speaker 1: five Points towards to that section of the forest. The

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Speaker 1: late eighties that we're sorry, in the late nineties. That

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Speaker 1: that would have been right right after the city shut

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Speaker 1: down that area of forest that operated as a prison farm. Um,

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Speaker 1: so that would have been it would kind of entered

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Speaker 1: its first stage of like not really being used for

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Speaker 1: anything for the next like twenty twenty years or so. Yeah. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not a kind of thing I know exactly.

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Speaker 1: They just say, like the forest kind of near a

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Speaker 1: little five points but interesting. Yeah, it's kind of one

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Speaker 1: of the last places he spends any time. So he's

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Speaker 1: actually still living. I'm sorry this all making up conspiracy

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Speaker 1: things too much fun. Still living under the forest, and um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where to go from there. If only

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Speaker 1: um obviously he is not a man who had an

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Speaker 1: easy life. The high Discordian leaders did not in general

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Speaker 1: have easy lives. Um. Greg Hill, as we've said, kind

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Speaker 1: of collapses mentally after his divorce from his wife. Um,

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Speaker 1: he gets a job. He eventually becomes a like upper

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Speaker 1: mid level executive at Bank of America. Oh that's well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's even sadder than that, because he will work as

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Speaker 1: a bank executive during the day and then for the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life he just comes home. He does

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Speaker 1: not interact with anyone and he drinks himself to death.

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Speaker 1: He drinks himself to death like it's a job. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that is that is how Greg Hill leaves the world.

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Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilson lives the longest of the guys we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about, into the early two thousands. He is

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Speaker 1: a much healthier person. There are some like criticisms of him.

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Speaker 1: He kind of he has some like very specific critiques

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Speaker 1: of feminism that I think some people have uncharitably compared

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Speaker 1: to being an early men's rights advocate. That's not actually

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Speaker 1: what I mean. From one thing, his wife was a

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Speaker 1: fairly influential feminist activist in her day. He had a

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Speaker 1: lot of specific issues with specific things certain feminists were

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Speaker 1: saying that he criticized, but was not like anti woman

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Speaker 1: in any particular way. Now he is. He is a

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Speaker 1: guy in who's writing shit in the sixties and seventies, um,

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Speaker 1: which falls over time, right, Like there's some misogyny you

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Speaker 1: can find in this early stuff. It also afferent, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: at the time when a lot of the feminism is

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Speaker 1: specifically anti porn. Also yeah, yeah, he is someone who

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Speaker 1: changes over time. And nothing that I've seen of his

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Speaker 1: is like like hateful, you know, like, he's not like

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Speaker 1: a cool or a violent person. He's just you know,

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Speaker 1: if you if you go in and read a bunch

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Speaker 1: of his stuff, you'll find some stuff that doesn't age

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Speaker 1: well and some stuff that you disagree with, which is

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Speaker 1: going to be the case with everybody who thought of

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Speaker 1: things that were interesting at any point in history. Not me,

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Speaker 1: not not Margaret future actually hum yeah, and and not me.

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Speaker 1: You can find Maya. It's actually kind of a sequel

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Speaker 1: to zinn Anarchy. It's called put the lead back in

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Speaker 1: the gas tanks. Comma fuck them kids, And it's sort

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Speaker 1: of my manifesto. UM. And I think really people are

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Speaker 1: going to get a lot of good out of that.

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Speaker 1: I also think bicycle helmet should be illegal, So you know,

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Speaker 1: check that book out. Follow my five pillars of making

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Speaker 1: sure children don't graduate school at accelerated rates, um, all

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Speaker 1: good stuff. School zone speed limit should be fifty five

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Speaker 1: miles an hour. It's interesting because as we're kind of discussing,

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Speaker 1: like the the end of the lives of these people, UM,

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Speaker 1: a few years before of a few years before Greg

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Speaker 1: Hill died, he gave an interview UM to loom Panics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he is like a was a publisher for both weird

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Speaker 1: left wing and right wing Esota Rica. Yeah. Yeah, yeah

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Speaker 1: that he he He talked about how, like his pen

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Speaker 1: name Maloclipse the younger he like described it as like

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Speaker 1: as like a spirit that like entered him and he

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Speaker 1: was he was, he was, he was, he was. He's

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Speaker 1: able to like channel writing through through the spear, which

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Speaker 1: is why he credited the work to to this to

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Speaker 1: to to this entity. But he also says that like, um,

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Speaker 1: that the entity kind of left him once. Yeah, once

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Speaker 1: Principia was writing, he kind of like it left and

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, part of him is like it like

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Speaker 1: disappeared over time. We'll actually talk a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about that in a second. I've got to call from him.

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Speaker 1: You'll find interesting, Oh awkward interjection. Robert forgot to do

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Speaker 1: the ad break back when he was supposed to. So

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Speaker 1: we're editing this in crudely, probably in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a sentence being spoken by Garrison, and we'll probably come

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Speaker 1: back from this ad break mid sentence spoken by Garrison,

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Speaker 1: just to fuck with him. But yeah, Bob Wilson is

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Speaker 1: the guy who kind of lives the longest and he

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Speaker 1: you know, the last years of his life are racked

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Speaker 1: with pain due to post polio syndrome, but he remains

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Speaker 1: extremely productive. And the thing that he has that that

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Speaker 1: I don't think really any of the others had, particularly

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Speaker 1: not Hillan Thornley. Bob Wilson is a weirdo. He's into

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Speaker 1: all this esoteric shit. He's also a professional, like a

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Speaker 1: professional writer who writes for a massive publication. He knows

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Speaker 1: how to pack gage ideas in ways to get a

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Speaker 1: lot of people to pay attention to them. And so

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Speaker 1: it's Bob Wilson. It's his work that's going to kind

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Speaker 1: of bring Discordianism to its widest audience and also have

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Speaker 1: the biggest long term cultural impact in mainstream conceptions of

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Speaker 1: the illuminati, because that's the thing that Wilson does the most.

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Speaker 1: That Wilson's work does the most. In nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shay, his fellow editor at Playboy,

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Speaker 1: start to publish a series of three novels, eventually known

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Speaker 1: as the Illuminatus Trilogy. The book is a very weird

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Speaker 1: piece of fiction. One of the things they're doing during

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Speaker 1: this is like every chapter, basically they switch off, and

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Speaker 1: so they were kind of trying to write each other

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Speaker 1: every chapter into a corner that the other couldn't get

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Speaker 1: out of. Assos. I know, it's it's not structured the

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Speaker 1: way most books are. The foundational premise is that all

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, even the conflicting ones, are true, and the

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Speaker 1: history of the world is largely determined by a secret

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Speaker 1: war waged between the all controlling Illuminati and the Discordians,

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Speaker 1: who are like the insurgents fighting against the Illuminati and

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Speaker 1: also are part of the Illuminati. It's a very it's

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Speaker 1: that kind of book. Um And again, one of the

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Speaker 1: things actually because like they're everyone is a double agent, right,

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Speaker 1: and like the Discordians are actually deeply enmeshed in the Illuminati.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's happening here that Wilson is

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Speaker 1: talking about is the fact that if you were a

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Speaker 1: radical in the sixties, you came to the realization that

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Speaker 1: like a significant chunk of the people you organized with

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Speaker 1: were Feds, and so like that's one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why all of this is like that's such a like

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Speaker 1: there's so many different like quadruple agents and stuff in

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Speaker 1: this in this series. Um, so it's just like working

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Speaker 1: for like mainstream publications Uh, yeah, you're you're critiquing capitalism

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Speaker 1: or participating capitalism. And I don't actually think that's like

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Speaker 1: bad obviously, but it's it's messy, and I could leave

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Speaker 1: you with that sort of sense of yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's a very messy book. And so this is

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Speaker 1: a hugely influential book. You know, we'll talk about this

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Speaker 1: in a second, but like you, it's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that's influential in ways that are mostly not super visible,

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Speaker 1: because when people put hints and references to this stuff

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Speaker 1: in their work, they're often very coy about it. And

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Speaker 1: just because of how influential this was and sort of

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Speaker 1: conceptions of the illuminati and conspiracies, a lot of it's

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Speaker 1: faded into the background since then. But yeah, I want

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Speaker 1: to I think probably the best way of kind of

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Speaker 1: talking about the way this stuff works is the idea

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Speaker 1: of the twenty three enigma, which is a big thing

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Speaker 1: in the Illuminatis trilogy, and it's it's basically like one

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Speaker 1: of the things that Wilson does in this book is

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Speaker 1: he finds there's all these different specific dates in history

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Speaker 1: that are influential that involve the number twenty three. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of like very specific fucked up historical shit

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Speaker 1: that happens in nineteen twenty three, and he'll he'll pull

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Speaker 1: all of these different dates in moments and stuff together,

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Speaker 1: because if you start listing enough stuff like that, the

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Speaker 1: kind of pattern recognition chunk of your brain lights up

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Speaker 1: and you start to attach a specific like significance to

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Speaker 1: the number twenty three. And so, like Wilson's kind of

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Speaker 1: goal here, this was another little way of bringing people

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Speaker 1: to Chapel perilyss is if you kind of like list

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Speaker 1: out all these different ways that the number twenty three

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Speaker 1: is significant in history, maybe people will start to question

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Speaker 1: whether or not the Illuminati is like picking spis you know,

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Speaker 1: is there a conspiracy that's doing certain things, that's carrying

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Speaker 1: out all these assassinations and revolutions on dates that have

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Speaker 1: a twenty three in them. Are they doing it because

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Speaker 1: like they're trying to signal to people what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Is this some sort of message or is it just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of like like, if there's enough

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Speaker 1: things happening in the world that if you like pull

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Speaker 1: out every significant event that happened on the twenty third

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Speaker 1: day of a month, you'll get a bunch of weird shit, right,

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Speaker 1: which is the where I tend to land on things.

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Speaker 1: But this kind of like works never one. If you

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Speaker 1: read the Illuminatus trilogy, you're going to wind up like

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Speaker 1: just noticing twenty three's forever, but also because of how

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Speaker 1: influential the books are, sit down and watch the fucking wire, right,

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Speaker 1: and see how many twenty threes you see on the

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Speaker 1: back of squad cars or in people's shirts and jackets.

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Speaker 1: Watch like any big show and keep an eye out

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Speaker 1: for the number twenty three, and you'll note that it

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Speaker 1: shows up more often than it seems like it should.

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Speaker 1: And is this just because Michael Jordan is a popular

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Speaker 1: basketball player? That's certainly some of it, or does a

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Speaker 1: lot of it have to do with the fact that

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Speaker 1: a bunch of the people who were making, particularly the

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Speaker 1: TV shows that were big in the late nineties early

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Speaker 1: two thousands, had been fans of this stuff and stuck

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Speaker 1: twenty threes into their work. Well, that's also the case.

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Speaker 1: And because of how effectively Bob does this, and how

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Speaker 1: many people pick up on this and start sticking twenty

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Speaker 1: threes into art and television and stuff, a conspiracy and

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Speaker 1: actual conspiracy develops over the number twenty three, that it's

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Speaker 1: somehow tied, you know, the secret society running the world,

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Speaker 1: which culminates in a two thousand and seven film starring

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Speaker 1: Jim Carrey titled twenty three. I've never even heard of

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Speaker 1: this movie. Oh yeah, it was, it was. It was

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Speaker 1: a big deal back in the day. I guess this

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Speaker 1: is like really lived under a rock. Yeah, But I mean,

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Speaker 1: the thing that Bob Wilson is doing is he's he's

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Speaker 1: basically taking advantage of the human brains gift for pattern recognition,

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Speaker 1: because it can kind of, for one thing, when you

395
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Speaker 1: get people locked into this pattern than when you reveal

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Speaker 1: things that have to do with like the number twenty three,

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Speaker 1: it feels like more of a reveal, Right, it just

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Speaker 1: kind of like works narratively. And also Bob Wilson liked

399
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Speaker 1: fucking with people, and this like had a clear impact,

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Speaker 1: but it also has kind of formed. This is the

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Speaker 1: baseline of a lot of the tactics that are used

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Speaker 1: by conspiracists today because the way that social media works,

403
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Speaker 1: if you can start like seeding in references to conspiracies

404
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: in a bunch of ways that go viral when people

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00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: start seeing all this shit popping up on their timeline,

406
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Speaker 1: and maybe it comes up on their timeline in a

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Speaker 1: moment that's particularly significant to them, and then they put

408
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: more weight into it. Like all of this stuff is

409
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Speaker 1: a lot easier to do. Bob had to draw you

410
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: in to a thousand page fiction book to like tweak

411
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: people's heads with this shit. Now you can do that

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Speaker 1: at scale using algorithms on Twitter and YouTube and shit.

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Speaker 1: And I'm saying people have it's like publicity stuff. It's like,

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Speaker 1: in publicity, you expect someone to not buy a product

415
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Speaker 1: until like the tenth time they hear it. And this

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00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: is this is true for fucking anarchists and radicals and whatever. Also, right,

417
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Speaker 1: like like if you're trying to sell a book or

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Speaker 1: you're trying to get people to have interest in a book,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to do anything about it the first

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Speaker 1: several times they hear it. And so it is really

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Speaker 1: interesting that it's the same strategy. Yeah, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: the goal of my operation. Mind fuck Bob Wilson's goal.

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Speaker 1: And these guys are all folks who are on the left.

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Speaker 1: They're all people who are also activists. Is like to

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Speaker 1: kind of Robert Guffey, who's written a book called Operation

426
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: mind Fucking. Writes about this, summarizes the goal is like

427
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: they want to break the trance that kept America at war,

428
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: blindly consuming and oblivious to its impact on the rest

429
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: of the world, destabilize the dominant cultural narrative through pranks

430
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: and confusion like that was essentially the goal. But as

431
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: Guffey notes, over the ensuing decades, it was the progressive

432
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: left whose ideas wound up being mainstreamed really from all

433
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: in the family onward. It was progressive values in fictional

434
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: TV maud to Mash Murphy Brown to the West Wing,

435
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: and as that became the dominant cultural narrative, Operation mind

436
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: fuck became a tool of the old right. And that

437
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: is over time kind of what you see is as

438
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff, not all of it. Obviously

439
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: these guys are much more radical than the fucking West Wing.

440
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: But as some of this, like these attitudes towards um,

441
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: you know, militarism and shit, and and attitudes towards like,

442
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, sexual liberation and u like that kind of stuff,

443
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: like radical political equality and whatnot, as those become more

444
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: mainstreamed them the it's like the toolbox loses its power

445
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: for that side. Right, but becomes a more powerful tool

446
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: of the people who are now kind of the insurgents. Yeah,

447
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the point that Guffey is making.

448
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: There's degrees to which I disagree with him, but I

449
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: think he's kind of like broadly looking at this in

450
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: a way that's that's that's useful. Well, So we don't

451
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: why we don't a sign, like we don't hold tactic

452
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: sacred is because like tactics themselves are applicable in certain

453
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: contexts and not another context and can be used by

454
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: all kinds of people. So if there's not a moral

455
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: weight attached to a tactic, then I don't feel bad

456
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: if the right wing is using Operation mind fuck type stuff,

457
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: because of course they are, because if they're the underdogs,

458
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: that's what they'll use. Like, yeah, it's like I said,

459
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: it's a gun on it on the table, right, Yeah,

460
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: that's what they've done, is they've built a gun and

461
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: they set it down on a table. Um. You know,

462
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: they try they used it first, and we can. I

463
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: think it's you know, arguable, like the degree to which

464
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: it was successful or not. Um. And I do think

465
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: it's interesting because one of the things, like we're trying

466
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: both to talk about sort of the broader impact on

467
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: American politics and culture that the aftershocks of Operation mind

468
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: Fuck had. But the other story is the impact that

469
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: it had on like conspiracy culture itself and even like

470
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: the conception of the Illuminati. And this has a lot

471
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that, again, Robert Wilson and

472
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: Robert Shay are both really good writers from like a

473
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: capitalist standpoint in terms of their ability to write things

474
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: that spread and can be sold, and this has led

475
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: a lot of creators to adapt their work. They're also

476
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: very influenced by HP Lovecraft, who was kind of an

477
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: early creative commons advocate in a lot of ways, like

478
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have used those terms, but he was this

479
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: advocate of, like, yeah, people should be taking my stories

480
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: in this mythos that I've built in writing their own

481
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: stories in it. And that's also kind of the attitude

482
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: that Wilson and Shay seem to have towards a lot

483
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: of this. And so a lot of people adapt versions

484
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: of the Illuminatis trilogy. And this leads to in the

485
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties when Kerry Thornley is going on that

486
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: TV show to talk about how he was racing his

487
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: buddy Oswald to kill Kennedy. A little Austin based pen

488
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: and paper game company called Steve Jackson Games makes a

489
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: card game, and Steve Jackson Games makes a lot of

490
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: card games. They Munchkin is probably their biggest seller now.

491
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: But they make a game in the early nineties called

492
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: Illuminati New World Order, and it's based in part on

493
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: the Illuminatis trilogy and in part on just like Shit

494
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: in the News. And the nineteen ninety four edition of

495
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: this game includes a card called Terrorist Nuke and Margaret

496
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 1: how she described that card. That is a picture of

497
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: the World Trade Centers being blowed up, and not blowed

498
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: up from the bottom, like, no, not from the bottom,

499
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: from about where that plane hit it. Yeah, this card

500
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: gives plus ten power or resistance your choice to any

501
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: violent group you control with violent is capacitalized. Well, it

502
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: certainly gave plus ten empower to the American government. There's

503
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: another card. I forget what it's called, but it just

504
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: it shows the Pentagon exploding in a particular section and

505
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: the way that the Pinnagonics. Yeah, I mean the band

506
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: the Coup put out like them hanging out in front

507
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 1: of some blowed up world towers like I think that

508
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: week or some shit like it's just an idea whose

509
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: time had Am I gonna finish that sentence? No, but

510
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: certainly it was an image that many people had thought

511
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: of before it happened. That is, like, there's even stuff

512
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: like in the Simpsons. There is there's stuff all over

513
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: of things resembling nine to eleven that happened in like

514
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: the two decades prior. I will say none of them

515
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: quite as much as this reson. Yes, absolutely, it is

516
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: a little striking yeah. Um. Now, the almost startling pressions

517
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: of this card, and the fact that it came from

518
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: a card game called Illuminati New World Order led to

519
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: viral conspiracy theories that the actual Illuminated had faked the

520
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: nine to eleven attacks and used this card game as

521
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: what Alex Jones called predictive programming to seat awareness of

522
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: their crimes. The crowning moment of this particular conspiracy theory

523
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: came when Osama bin Laden was assassinated in twenty eleven.

524
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: The CIA gained access to his hard drive, and the

525
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: contents of this hard drive are now all publicly available.

526
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: They contain a PDF titled smoking Gun Proof that Illuminati

527
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: planned terrible events many years ago to bring down our culture.

528
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: The article that follows is an exhaustive dissection of the

529
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: Illuminati card game on Osama Bin Laden's hard drive. Again,

530
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: Steve Jackson's game must have made bank off of this.

531
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: They were just sitting back being like, yeah, yeah. The

532
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: other thing that happens right around this time is they're

533
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: making like a cyberpunk role playing game, which includes a

534
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: bunch of hacking shit. And because the FBI, especially in

535
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: the early nineties, is not very doesn't know anything about computers,

536
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: they like freak Out and aid Steve Jackson games. So like,

537
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: after this comes out, there's a massive federal raid on

538
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: this gaming company. It's all a coincidence. I mean, this

539
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: is and especially when this shit shows up on Ben

540
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: Laden's hard drive, like this is a lot of people's

541
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: chapel perilous moment, right Yeah, you're like, why how would

542
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: this be in his hard drive? And obviously there had drive.

543
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: There was so much shit, including like all of the

544
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: fucking Looney Tunes cartoons you could ever want um. But

545
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: if you're if a part of your brain at any

546
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: point this went like, huh, I wonder if something we're

547
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: just going on I mean you know, that's Operation mind

548
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: Fuck working as intended. Um. Now, the Illuminatus Trilogy ironically

549
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: made the Illuminati reel to millions of people. This is

550
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: due in part to the relevance of the books themselves.

551
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: In the late nineteen eighties, the Illuminatus Trilogy was made

552
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: into a stage play, which was so popular it launched

553
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: the careers of Bill Night and Jim Broadbent. The Queen

554
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: of England attended the opening. Um. It is a weirdly

555
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: influential play. UM. So uh yeah, the Queen of England

556
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: attends this play based on this ridiculous series of books. Um.

557
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: And of course Illuminati imagery. We're just we're posting this

558
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: on a day when like Elon Musk posted an Illuminati meme.

559
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: Jay Z and Beyonce have incorporated Illuminati symbolism in that

560
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: their acts, which have convinced a lot of people that

561
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: they are, in fact in the Illuminati. Um. In twenty fifteen,

562
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: research suggested that about half the US population believes in

563
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: at least one conspiracy theory, and one of the most

564
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: popular is the existence of the Illuminati. I suspect it's

565
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: probably over half at this point. The QC theory a

566
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: lot has happened to reality since twenty fifteen. And honestly,

567
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: if you stopped happen, reality stopped existing. Yeah, well, I

568
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: mean consensus reality took a big hit. We all there

569
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: were It's almost like, you know, if you want to

570
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: use society is like, uh, some fucking like worm traveling

571
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: through the soil. We hit a rock and burst into

572
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: pieces and like that's now You've got a bunch of

573
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: little worms that formed out of the carcass of that

574
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: big worm. And we're all tunneling in different directions and

575
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: some of us have wound up in piles of shit. Huh, yeah,

576
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: I know that maybe is better. I use it as

577
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: the like the way of understanding majority reality is like

578
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: the ice is thicker where more people are and stuff,

579
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: and like out on the edge is like where some

580
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: of the more fringe things happens, and there's no value

581
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: in something being fringe or not right, like much like

582
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: Operation mind Fuck. It's like there's no value fucking people's heads.

583
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: And so yeah, sometimes it just feels like we fucking

584
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: the ice flow just split in half. Yeah, and this

585
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: is um you know, obviously, like Q went on, conspiracy

586
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: theory is a rebranded Illuminati conspiracy theory. They are taking

587
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: the joke that these guys made about how the CIA

588
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: and the Republican Party and the Democrat Party and the

589
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: anarchists and YadA YadA, we're all, you know, part of

590
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: the conspiracy together. The actors just taking universities, the people

591
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: in the media. They even even even the current fucking

592
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: stuff with like you know, the the the elites pushing

593
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: gender ideology and all, like the antitrans stuff is just

594
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: is just another version of the Illuminati. Like it's all

595
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: the same shit. And if any of those people would

596
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: get my pronouns right, as if any of the people

597
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: that they think are like controlling and trying to make

598
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: everyone trans would like fucking get my pronouns right. Yeah. Well,

599
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting too because um uh, what you

600
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: actually kind of see here because it's not just the

601
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: Discordians that like Discordian attitudes towards the Illuminati that have

602
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: been taken up by Q and on. They're kind of

603
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: merging the Discordian depiction of the Illuminati with the John

604
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: Birch Society's depiction of the Illuminati. So like like that's

605
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: really what you've seen happen here, which is such a

606
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: strange thing, but I don't see any other way to

607
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: kind of parse out the intellectual DNA of this movement. Um. Yeah.

608
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because at this point, for one thing,

609
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: some of the first people to recognize what was happening

610
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: with the alt right and like what was happening kind

611
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: of with all of these different social movements, these right

612
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: wing social movements that have spread through conspiracies over the

613
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: Internet were old Discordians, and a lot of these people

614
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: have kind of come to the conclusion that not only

615
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: did Operation mind Fuck fail in its initial noble goal,

616
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: but it had been subverted and turned into a weapon.

617
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from Guffey here again. The

618
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 1: parallels between the Discordian goddess Heiress and the Egyptian frog

619
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: headed god Keck should be obvious. Both were created to

620
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: represent the spirit of chaos, disruption, and anti authoritarianism, and

621
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: many Altright memes, Keck resembles Donald Trump with a froglike face.

622
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: Oddly enough, depicting Trump as a half human half reptilian

623
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: hybrid is meant to be a compliment to the president.

624
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties, conspiracy theorist David Ike grew to

625
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: fame by traveling around the world accusing various world leaders

626
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: of being shape shifting reptilians in disguise. Today, Trump supporters

627
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: clothe him in a reptilian form as a tribute they

628
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: perceive him to be a cold blooded agent of pure chaos.

629
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: I was literally just looking up all of the stuff

630
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: linking the peppe Keck thing to the Yeah, the entire

631
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: way that Fortune was using this like specifically influenced by

632
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: the operation mind folk stuff specifically influenced by like the

633
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: chaos magic stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's fucked up and

634
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: you're you're not gonna Obviously, the odds that Donald Trump

635
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: himself knows any of this are basically zero, but the

636
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: odds that there are people in his orbit who were

637
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: aware of a lot of this history are quite a

638
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: bit higher. And you're not going to find smoking guns here. Um.

639
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: But there there are some things that I've read over

640
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: the years that set like send me back to that

641
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: chap will paralless space. Um. I'm going to quote from

642
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: an article in the Guardian, and this is from way

643
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: back when the Cambridge Analytic a scandal broke, like if

644
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: you can remember then, So this is this is an

645
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: article about the Cambridge Analytica scandal. As Wiley describes it,

646
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: he was the gay Canadian vegan who somehow ended up

647
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: creating quote Steve Bannon's psychological warfare mind fuck tool in

648
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Steve Bannon, then executive chairman of the alt

649
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: right news network Bright Bart, was Whiley's boss, and Robert Mercer,

650
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: the secret US hedge fund billionaire and Republican donor, was

651
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: Cambridge Analytic as investor. And the idea they brought into

652
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: being was to bring big data and social media to

653
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: an established military methodology information operations, then turn it on

654
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,479
Speaker 1: the US electorate. Now, is WHILEY using the term mind

655
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: fuck just because that's the term that is most appropriate.

656
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: Is he using it because as the kind of guy

657
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: who'd get this job, he's familiar with this history. Or

658
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: is he using it because it's a term that he

659
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 1: heard around the office, And then why were the people

660
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: using it? Like? Right? You can you can drive yourself

661
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: into some interesting areas if you read too much into

662
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: a fucking quote from a Guardian article where a guy

663
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: happens to use the word mind fuck while talking about

664
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: a psychological warfare tool. But I do that sometimes when

665
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: I'm reading about the Illuminati at four in the morning.

666
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: I mean, because you're in the chapel perilyss right now,

667
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: almost permanently. Yeah. So, research in twenty sixteen by You're

668
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: in Swammy, a psychology professor, suggests that conspiracy theory believers

669
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: are more likely to be suffering from stressful life situations

670
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: than nonbelievers. And what I find interesting about this is

671
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: that the toolbox built by the Discordians, merged with the

672
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: reach of social media, gives bad actors a way to

673
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: create stressful life situations for millions of people, which draw

674
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 1: them deeper into conspiracism while alienating them from their families

675
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 1: and thus making them more vulnerable. Right, this is a good,

676
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: big thing on qan on. A lot of people that

677
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: fall into this are not are not actually like like

678
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: they're actually doing fine. Like a lot of them are

679
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: like suburban Republican moms who like are living life pretty good,

680
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: but the invention of this conspiracy theory throws their life

681
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 1: into shambles because they now like it creates these stressful

682
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 1: conditions that otherwise kind of well off and privileged people

683
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: are already existing in. Yeah, and it's it's that that

684
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: is like part of you know, to the extent that

685
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: you want to throw put blame on the original Discordians.

686
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: Some of what makes this tool set so dangerous didn't

687
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: exist when they invented it, right, Like, all of the

688
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: stuff that has been done using kind of the basis

689
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: they established wasn't possible back in the nineteen sixties. But yeah,

690
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: it is worth noting though that, Like I just said that,

691
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: But as Garrison brought up earlier, among the first Discordians,

692
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: there was a pretty widespread understanding that they were at

693
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: least potentially fiddling with something dangerous. And I'm going to

694
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: quote from j. Mr Higgs here. Greg Hill was an

695
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: atheist who intended Discordianism to be a satire of religion.

696
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: He certainly did not start out taking the idea of

697
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: goddesses or spirit seriously. By the late seventies, however, he

698
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: was convinced that his Discordian adventures had stirred up something

699
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: that he was unable to explain. As he told his

700
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: friend Margot Adler, if you do this type of thing

701
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: well enough, it starts to work. I started out with

702
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: the idea that all gods are an illusion. By an

703
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: end I had learned that it is up to you

704
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: to decide whether gods exist. And if you take the

705
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: Goddess of Confusion seriously enough, it will send you through

706
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: his profound and valid and metaphor physical trip as taking

707
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: a god like yahweh seriously yep, yeah, I mean this

708
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: is this is this is funny, just uh right. Right

709
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: right before he started recording, this video came out of

710
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk talking about how he got sick because some

711
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: witches like like cursed him, and like, the first step

712
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: for magic to be effective is that you have to

713
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: believe in the magic. So the fact that Charlie Kirk

714
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: believes that witches can make him sick means that he

715
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: has now opened up the possibility in his brain to

716
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: get sick because of magic. So now people can do

717
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: that and he's and he will get sick because this

718
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: is how your brain works. Like this is like actual

719
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: like science stuff with the placebo effect, with the no

720
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: sebo effect. That the fact that he's decided that witches

721
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: can can cause him physical damage means that whitches can

722
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: now cause him physical damage. And because we have so

723
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: many listeners to this podcast, and and I think there

724
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: is a great stored potential in their mental energy. If

725
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: you have some time today when you listen to this,

726
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: everyone just think about giving Charlie Kirk Chlamydia. Let's all

727
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: just let's all just work on that together psychically, just

728
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: a little bit of a clap for old Charlie Kirk.

729
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: I think we can do it. All you have to

730
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: do is visualize his face getting smaller and smaller until

731
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: until he develops a series of horrible rashes. So throughout

732
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties, in particular, the tactics of the Discordians

733
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: merged with things like the Situationists and groups like Up

734
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: against the Wall Motherfuckers, which had all kind of existed

735
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: in the same period that the Discordians got started. One

736
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: of the things that gives the Discordians longevity is that

737
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: there are kind of follow up cults to the original cult,

738
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: the Church of the SubGenius being the most well known

739
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: that is basically rebranded Discordian. Bob Wilson is a part

740
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: of it, and this kind of keeps a lot of

741
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 1: like the stuff that they had been putting out relevant,

742
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: and as a result, they have a big influence in

743
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: the spread of a widespread left wing cultural practice called

744
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: culture jamming by anti consumerst activists in the nineteen nineties,

745
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: well and speaking of anti consumerism and and and church

746
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: at the SubGenius. One thing they put out was a

747
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: lot of fake advertising, just like and just like, just

748
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: like the fake ads. You're about to hear. Nothing you're

749
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: about to hear is a real product. These are fake.

750
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: The show is entirely supported by the CIA, working with

751
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: the John Birch Society. Yea, all fake products, but you

752
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 1: still have to listen. You still have to listen to

753
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: them or also it won't work, so yeah, yeah, it'll

754
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: break the illusion. All right, we're back. My favorite of

755
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: those ads was the one where JFK was talking about

756
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: his new podcast where he talks to celebrities. The Deep

757
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: Fake JFK podcast is actually pretty good. It is. It

758
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: is shocking how clear they make his voice, and it

759
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: flows very consistently. A lot of AI voices are kind

760
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: of junkie, but the deep Fake jaky voice is actually

761
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: one of the better ones that I've heard. We should

762
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: interview it about Kerry Thornley add a little bit in there.

763
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: Cyber is way more confusing than I was led to

764
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: believe by playing shadow when I was a kid. Well,

765
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: it's part of this is actually part of why it's confusing.

766
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: So the basic idea of culture jamming is that you

767
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: repurpose and co opt symbols and figures of established power,

768
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: turn them into memes, and use that to subvert capitalism.

769
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: A good example of this would be the Billboard Liberation Front,

770
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: who started hacking billboards in their terms in the nineteen seventies.

771
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: One of my favorite pieces of their work is an

772
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: AT and T billboard, which originally said AT and T

773
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: works in more places, and the BLF added like NSA headquarters.

774
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: The Billboard Liberation Front and other culture jammers influenced and

775
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: inspired a lot of modern activists and artists, but you

776
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: might note they seem to have made a lot less

777
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: progress in their culture jamming than late adopters on the

778
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: right wing. Since twenty fourteen, when Gamergate roared to life

779
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: in a hail of me and repurposed bits of mass media,

780
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: different once fringed chunks of the radical right have forced

781
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 1: their way into the mainstream, often co opting not just

782
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: the imagery of other artists like Pepe, but co opting

783
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: actual people to spread their message. In fact, we have

784
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: evidence that Adbusters, perhaps the premier clearing house of leftist

785
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: culture jamming up to the present day was used by

786
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 1: the alt right as a textbook in their twenty fifteen

787
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen meme operations. Aaron Gallagher was one

788
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: of the very first researchers on this beat. In a

789
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: medium right up titled alt Right Culture Jamming, she cites

790
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: a September twenty fifteen Pole post read adbusters don't follow

791
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: the left hard propaganda, but look at the examples. Yeah. Man,

792
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: that's so frustrating. Ah, it's deeply frustrating. I feel like

793
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: the loss. I don't know, Margaret. I think the only

794
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 1: way it is through. We have to have to keep going,

795
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: just keep posting harder. We're going to do it eventually. Sure. Yeah,

796
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: it's one of two things. It's either earnestness or it's

797
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: getting things weird enough and fucking with people's heads enough

798
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: that we make everybody a furry. And then people are

799
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: too busy trying to make you know, various genital sheaths

800
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: for their furs suits to have a second civil war.

801
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: But see, they will be earnestly looking for genital sheaths

802
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: for their first suits. That is the strength of the

803
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: furry movement. It is an earnest thing that everyone else

804
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: views ironically. But this is this is something actually I've

805
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: been thinking about a lot that the past week, and

806
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: how these these tactics they do seem to be successful

807
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: in the ways that the right uses them. The left

808
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: and anarchists have seen success in these same tactics. But

809
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: this this type of like in the last previously in

810
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 1: our series, we talked about like a deternament versus recuperation,

811
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: and how these these two things they're kind of they're

812
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: kind of two sides of the same coin. Actually, like

813
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: they're kind of they operate, they operate the same and

814
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: they both and same thing with like culture jamming. They

815
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: all do contribute to this like fracturing and this opening

816
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: up of reality. But and what that does is that

817
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: it creates these brief windows of opportunity where like reality

818
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: is extremely malleable and it can be shaped by collective

819
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: groups of people. But yeah, so as these things are

820
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: useful tactics for for creating these these areas of possibility

821
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: and these and these and these small windows um and

822
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: one of the kind of risks of using these tactics,

823
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: and we kind of saw this with Occupied, We saw

824
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 1: this with a few other kind of very very culture

825
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,439
Speaker 1: jamming based movements. Is that once this reality has been

826
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: fractured in a specific way, if if if we don't

827
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: win this battle, it can never be attacked in the

828
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: same way. Again. It's like as if you're if you're

829
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: going to use these culture jamming tactics as as a

830
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: part of a diversity of tactics to kind of effect reality,

831
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: to to open up these fractures once once they have

832
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 1: been once they've been attacked, and if we lose this

833
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: method of attack and this and the location of attack

834
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: is going to be so much stronger than it was

835
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: like pre the pre the fracture And it's when you're

836
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: fighting the borg exactly. It's it's it's one of these

837
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: things where you have to be very careful when using

838
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: these tactics because you could inadvertently, you know, make make

839
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: the attack surface actually you know, much harder in the

840
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: future if you don't actually you know, succeed at your goal. Well,

841
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: it's it's the idea that like you have to think

842
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: about some of this stuff like operation mind fuck the

843
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 1: way that like a hacker would think of a zero

844
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: day exploit. A zero day exploit is like basically a

845
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: fuck up and code that can allow you like a

846
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: method to get in and you know, access a thing

847
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: that you're not supposed to access. But the instant you

848
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: use it, the people who are responsible for defending whatever

849
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: it is you're hacking will know what you've done and

850
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: fix it. So you can use a zero day once. Right,

851
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: you have to be careful about when you deploy something

852
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: like that. And also, yeah, like like you have this

853
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: thing where it's like, okay, if where we perceive reality

854
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: is going from a garrison, was saying earlier, if where

855
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 1: we perceive reality is like kind of a a fixed point,

856
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: and you want to move that, but it's a pin

857
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: stuck in the political map. The pin is stuck in

858
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: the political map, and everyone who wants to change it

859
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: wants to pull the pin out of the map so

860
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,959
Speaker 1: it can be moved. And the pin is now out

861
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: of the map. But the problem is that everyone now

862
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: can fight over the pin and move it, and so

863
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: really you always want to pull the pin out of

864
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: the map when you're positioned to be the one who

865
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: can move it instead of the other team. Yes, be

866
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: fast on that shit. And it's one of those things

867
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: obviously in terms of like determining bastardry. There's bastardry and

868
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: Carrie's personal life. When it comes to what the Discordians

869
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: were doing. I think it'd be a trap to fall

870
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: into too much recrimination here. Now we know Carry in

871
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: particular was a reckless guy. This was not not a

872
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: reckless thing to do Operation mind fuck. That said, it's

873
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: hard for me to blame an acid drenched young man

874
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: and his friends for thinking that their extended joke about

875
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: the John Birch Society would unleash a torrent of chaos

876
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: upon the world, although I have to say Harris at

877
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: least is surely pleased. Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely, they

878
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: did exactly what they said that they were going to

879
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: try and do, and it worked. Yes, they got shocked

880
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: that it worked. Yea. It is interesting to note that,

881
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: whatever you want to say about their aims, the impact

882
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: of the Discordian Society on global politics and the course

883
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: of mankind far outweighs any other real secret society that

884
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: I can name. Like, objectively, they had more of an

885
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: impact on politics than the real Illuminati. They also succeeded

886
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: in forcing their names into the story of the Illuminati forever,

887
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: and as evidence of this, I want to read a

888
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: quote to you from a wild Ass Illuminati conspiracy book

889
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: by Jim Mars. It is critical at this point to

890
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: understand that Illuminism is an ism, not unlike national socialism nazis.

891
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: That's in parentheses communism, capitalism, and socialism. It is a

892
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: belief system that is not relegated to any one individual

893
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: or group in any given period of time. The beneficial

894
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: goals of the Illuminati, such as free from church dogma

895
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: and government tyranny, lived on to modern times in France, America,

896
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: and Russia. But the more sinister aspects of the order,

897
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: such as inherent secrecy, duplicity, violence, and the drive for

898
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: absolute power lived on too when unscrupulous men. Robert Anton

899
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: Wilson opined, the one safe generalization one can make is

900
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 1: that Wishop's intent to maintain secrecy has worked. No two

901
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: students of illuminology have ever agreed totally about what the

902
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: inner secret or purpose of the order actually was or is.

903
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: As Wilson wants fancifully told a radio audience, maybe the

904
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: secret of the Illuminati is that you don't know you're

905
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: remember until it's too late to get out out. That

906
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 1: that is such an interesting way to frame that though, Yeah,

907
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: is that Robert coming out as in the Illuminati to

908
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: us or is that Robert telling us that we're in

909
00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: it now? Hmm? Interesting? Interesting, Wow, it's a decision for

910
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: everyone at home to make. That kind of just is

911
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: like hindsight is twenty twenty though, Like, you don't know

912
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: how much you're gonna affect history or like reality until

913
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: it's already happened. And even still, I don't think Robert

914
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: Aunton Wilson and the Discordian guys knew how much this

915
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: stuff would be impacted because they all died in they

916
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: all died in the early two thousands, and this stuffs

917
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: like kind of reached reached the peak of its power

918
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: from twenty sixteen to like the present. Um, And yeah,

919
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: that is that is a very a very concise way

920
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: to to to frame membership of the Illuminati. I would yeah,

921
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,479
Speaker 1: I would love to die before I find out that

922
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: my life's work fuels all of my ideological enemies. Yeah,

923
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: that part's a bummer. I don't know. I think about

924
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: it a couple of ways. Um. One of them is that, like,

925
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: as I think about Robert Danton Wilson's ideas of reality

926
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: tunnels and pan agnosticism. I kind of think that one

927
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: of the healthier terms that social media has given us

928
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: is the idea of headcanon, right, which initially came out

929
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: of like the fan fiction universe as a way of

930
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: talking about like, well, I'm deciding this is true about

931
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: star Wars or whatever. But it's a term that gets

932
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: used more broadly by people on the Internet, and I

933
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: think maybe even if you're talking about loopy stuff when

934
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: you use it, the idea that this is canon that

935
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: is inside my head as opposed to this is my

936
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: view of reality is maybe in a subconscious way, an

937
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: inherently healthier way to talk about shit. No, that's so true.

938
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: I like that idea. Yeah, anyway, that's a more or

939
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: less complete history of the Illuminati. Did I love that.

940
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: The actual history of the Illuminati is like, there's this

941
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: guy he wanted to be a nerd and that fucking

942
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: Christians wouldn't let him, so he did some weird Christians

943
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: and looking science shit, and that lasted for a little while,

944
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: and then God struck one of them down, and now

945
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: there's fucking pyramids on the dollar bill and reality TV

946
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: Stars of the President. Yeah, it is kind of the

947
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: story of like two different groups of well meaning nerds

948
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: who like fucked around in order to try to make

949
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: the world a better place, but the only language they

950
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: had was lies, and so a number of problems were

951
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: created as a result. Yeah, and that's why, I mean,

952
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: that's actually why I believe. I think that like jokes

953
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: and lies and there's like some interesting and good shit

954
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: that can be done through all this. But I think

955
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: that's why just like people being earnestly about what they're

956
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: about feels like, yeah, much like headcannon as like a

957
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: way to inure ourselves from this kind of nonsense. And

958
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: I actually think we've been talking a lot about this,

959
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: about how the different culture weapons that the left and

960
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: the right use to kind of get around each other,

961
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: that these are not static battle lines, and that tactics

962
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: are adopted and altered and change over time. One of

963
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: the things that made Trump potent, and that made you know,

964
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: the alt right and the initial Trump movement potent, was

965
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: in fact a kind of honesty, or at least authenticity,

966
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: And I talk about that. I've talked about this a

967
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: few times over my career. I had a series of

968
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: interviews with a guy, Rick Wilson, who was an objectively

969
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: unpleasant man in a lot of ways. He was one

970
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: of the chief Republican like dirty tricks media guys. He

971
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: did a lot of really ugly attack ads in the

972
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: Obama era and then became an anti Trumper. But like

973
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:44,879
Speaker 1: one of the things he will he would point out

974
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: when he was and this wasn't I was talking to

975
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: him as the election was going on and we were

976
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: kind of analyzing the Clinton campaign's ads as he was like,

977
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: these all feel like something somebody cooked up in a

978
00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 1: Madison Avenue ad agency, because they are and Trump bads

979
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: feel like something some guy made on his computer at

980
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: three in the morning after like slamming a bunch of monsters.

981
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: And that's what worked about Trump. There's something authentic about

982
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: that that like enraptured people because it felt more honest

983
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: than the politicians we were used to. Um. It doesn't

984
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: mean he was a fundamentally honest man, but there was

985
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: a central honesty in his approach and like his willingness,

986
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: his unwillingness to even like pretend that he felt bad

987
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: for doing bad things. That was that was that was

988
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 1: like this authenticity that was an effective weapon in their quarrel.

989
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: And I think over the years they've gotten so up

990
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: their own there's an extent to which I think they've

991
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: gotten up their own asses about the you know, saying

992
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: the quiet part, you know, and and uh and and

993
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of like wrapping their actual intents and layers of

994
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: subversion and all of this fakery. And I think there's

995
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: a degree to which that may have thrown people off

996
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: who would have otherwise been appealed to them. And I

997
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: think there's also kind of the period we're seeing right

998
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: now from the right is where they're they're discarding these

999
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: tactics and they're trying authenticity again in terms of like

1000
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: we're just going to straight up talk about wanting to

1001
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: erase transgender people from existence, we want to ban books,

1002
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 1: we want to make it illegal to learn, you know,

1003
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 1: take ap African American history, all this kind of shit,

1004
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: Like the mask is kind of off, and I think

1005
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 1: maybe they may be miscalculating, and we have some early

1006
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 1: signs that that may be the case, the degree to

1007
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: which that kind of authenticity is a selling point. And

1008
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: so yeah, Margaret, I think there's a good chance that

1009
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: you're right in terms of like what our response needs

1010
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 1: to actually be because they're showing their faces now and

1011
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: it's a pretty ugly one. So maybe this is the

1012
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: time to show ours rather than you know, trying to

1013
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: make our little illuminati and hide our enlightenment values from

1014
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: the people who can't possibly understand it well enough yet.

1015
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, And I think part of that

1016
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: has to do with like, um, you know, like many

1017
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: people listeners probably identifies liberals, but there's a sort of

1018
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 1: joke that everyone hates liberals basically from all other every

1019
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: other position and also possibly including the liberal position often. Yeah,

1020
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of it has to

1021
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: do with this, like having people be sort of wishy washy,

1022
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: or having people yeah, not quite say what they're about,

1023
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, And I don't know, just being like yeah,

1024
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: I often see that you actually get more people not

1025
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: necessarily agreeing with you, but able to make their own

1026
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: decisions about where they agree with you and where they

1027
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: don't when you're just like, well, this is what I'm about.

1028
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: What are you about? You know, instead of being like, oh, yeah, totally,

1029
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: this is how I don't know? This like false. The

1030
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: problem the media has too, because, by at least according

1031
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 1: to Gallop, public trust in the media, about twenty three

1032
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: percent of the American copulation thinks that journalists are basically honestum, like,

1033
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 1: so people do not believe that the media is telling

1034
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: them the truth. Like this New York Times idea of

1035
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: like the importance of you know, honest, unbiased journalism. That

1036
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: is not a thing. And it's not a thing because

1037
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: no one believes you're unbiased. So the honest thing to

1038
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 1: do is not to be like, well, we can't have

1039
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: trains people reporting on trend or black people reporting on

1040
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: you know, issues that affect the black community because they're biased.

1041
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: Like no, just like have people report on shit and

1042
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: be honest about what they believe. If you're a fucking

1043
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: Marxist or a fucking conservative walking into you know, a

1044
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,439
Speaker 1: protest or a movement or whatever, X tell people what

1045
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: you think about the world when you go to report

1046
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: on that thing. Obviously, Like if you're reporting on like

1047
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: a tornado, your ideology is not important. But I would

1048
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: much rather know, yeah, exactly, Yeah, that we don't need

1049
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: we don't need to We don't need to know that,

1050
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: you like, have a Marxist to take on the economy

1051
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: or whatever if your job is to report on a hurricane.

1052
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: Although maybe that'll influence the way you talk about like

1053
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: the but whatever how people handle it, let let I

1054
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: mean don't like it. It's this, it's the fact, Like

1055
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: the reason people don't trust the media. A big part

1056
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: of it is that you can't be an unbiased journalist.

1057
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: It's simply not a thing that exists in the same

1058
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: way that like, the very way you see the world

1059
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: and the way that it feels to you, even down

1060
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: to the way things taste, is impacted by your expectations.

1061
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: This is a biological reality that is undeniable. Your expectations,

1062
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: your personal biases. Everything including like how much sleep you've

1063
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 1: got the night before, changes the way you interact with

1064
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: physical reality, as is the things you believe. So it's

1065
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: actually fundamentally dishonest to pretend that you're coming at anything

1066
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: from some sort of point of objectivity. And everyone knows

1067
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: that at some level, which is why nobody trusts journalists. Right,

1068
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: That's my take, and we should work to like part

1069
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: of me open about her a biases is to also

1070
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: kind of like no, okay, Like my weak spot is

1071
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: that I want to believe that someone who calls themselves

1072
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: this or that label is fundamentally good or fundamentally bad,

1073
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: and so I should be aware of my own biases,

1074
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: even for myself, so I can move towards objectivity. I

1075
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: mean I have when I went into this. This is

1076
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: the second version of this that I've done. The first

1077
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: one was a much shorter version that we did as

1078
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: part of a live show, and it was much less

1079
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: complicated and towards the Discordians and delved into a lot

1080
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: less of this. And you know that's part of It's

1081
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: because these guys were my heroes when I was a

1082
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: very young man. Yeah, and I didn't want in a

1083
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: lot of ways to learn things like the fact that

1084
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: Carrie Thornley attempted to molest a young girl like that

1085
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: is an unpleasant thing to realize and have to adapt

1086
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: into because that, you know, that actually does mean something

1087
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: about the things that he believed. And one of the

1088
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: things that it means is that you should always be

1089
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: carefu all about how much you believe anything, right, because

1090
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: belief can lead you to some very frightening areas, even

1091
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: if even if that is a belief in the value

1092
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: of love and and you know, physical autonomy and stuff, right,

1093
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: Because that's how Carrie would describe the underpinning of the

1094
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 1: horrible thing that he did. Um and uh, yeah, I

1095
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: don't know. I think we've probably talked enough about this

1096
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Sure have or you guys want to

1097
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: plug anything stop doing the or have no no no. Yeah. Sophie.

1098
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: By the way, when you sent me that text last night,

1099
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: you know, saying saying that your your uber wouldn't pick

1100
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: you up outside of the senator's house and that you

1101
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: had a hot firearm, you had to discard. Um did

1102
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: you ever wind up getting that uber? Well, here's how

1103
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: we know your conspiracy is wrong. Would not take it uber?

1104
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: I would call your ass Yeah, you're going to say,

1105
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: would lift? This has all been an extent. Did add

1106
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: for lift? Lift? If you're going to carry out a

1107
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: political assassination, it had better be in a lift. Lift.

1108
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: We do not ask questions. Seriously, need to start offering

1109
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: that as something that we do here a lift. We

1110
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: make sure every one of our drivers has a hidden

1111
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: area in the car that you can police a hot

1112
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: firearm lift. We go the extra mile shop lift anyways, Garrison,

1113
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: Margaret Pluggables. If you want to look at my slightly

1114
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: unhinged ramblings about chaos magic, you can follow my Twitter

1115
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 1: account at Hungry bow Tie, as as as this is airing.

1116
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: I will probably probably be in Atlanta for the Week

1117
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: of Action, which is going on to defend the Force there.

1118
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: So if you want to support people in Atlanta, you

1119
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: can donate to the Atlanta Solidarity Fund. I would say

1120
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: I have two book novella series that came out a

1121
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: little while ago that called the Danielle Kane Series. The

1122
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 1: first ones The Lamb Will Slaughter the Lion. The second

1123
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: one is The Barrel Will Send What It May. They're

1124
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: both really short and they deal with more ggicals stuff

1125
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: and more stuff about how we shape reality than some

1126
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: of my other writings. So maybe you'll like them if

1127
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 1: you like this episode, and you can get them wherever

1128
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: books are sold. Yeah, read those books, because I have

1129
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: been using a series of fake, cutout social media accounts

1130
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: in order to harass and threaten Margaret into writing a

1131
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: third one. But it's not working, so help me out

1132
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: people anyway. This has been Behind the Bastards, a podcast

1133
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: about the Illuminati that also is the Illuminati. So whatever

1134
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: conspiracy you belief about me and my friends here on

1135
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: the show, it's probably real in some way. Happy twenty

1136
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 1: twenty three. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool

1137
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our

1138
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on

1139
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.