WEBVTT - Journalism Under Attack in Lebanon 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:08.920 Cool Media. Hello everyone, and this is it could happen here. 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.319 My name is Dan al Kurd. I'm a researcher and 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.720 analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I'm joined by 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.439 Justin Salhani, who is a non resident fellow at the 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.759 Titan Institute for Middle East Policy and a writer and 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.200 journalist based in Beirut. He has worked with Al Jazeera 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.680 Digital and has contributed to a number of different outlets 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.000 in the past, and has been reporting on the region 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:31.960 since twenty eleven. Justin, thank you so much for coming 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.640 on the show. Thanks for having me so since you are, 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.880 you know, based in bed with them, so intimately knowledgeable 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.520 of what's been going on, I thought we could start 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.800 by just kind of laying out what conditions are like 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:45.840 in Lebanon right now. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.560 So right now, as we speak, we're in the midst 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.360 of kind of a tenuous, fragile incomplete we can call 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:58.160 it ceasefire in Beirut proper. There still is occasionally, you know, 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.120 a drone overhead, this kind of infamous drone that buzzes 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:06.600 incessantly and keeps everyone constantly on their toes. But there's 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.720 been almost two weeks or a little maybe a little 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.520 bit more now without an attack on Baitoo. Basically, we 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.560 had that day April eighth, which is being called locally 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.520 Black Wednesday, where around the country I think the numbers 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.279 are now over three hundred and fifty people were killed, 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.360 and many of those were in beitoots in areas that 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.360 came without warning. You know, there is this kind of 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.640 dynamic now where the Israeli military will at times announce 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.679 warnings for certain areas, though many attacks come with no warning, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.800 and they brought down buildings without warning in some cases 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.119 as well in central Bayroot. So the conditions right now 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.760 are you know, relatively, I guess we can call it 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.559 quiet here. Of course, that's vastly different in the south, 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.720 where there was an intensification, particularly yesterday, there wasn't really 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.240 any cessation of hostilities. We can talk about how the 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.840 minutes leading up to April sixteen, when the ceasefire went 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.520 into effect, you know, throughout the country in Lebanon, the 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.840 Israelis were attacking around the country, not but in other 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:09.560 parts of the country, particularly in the south and in 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.079 the city of Sorde bombs. You know, I was down 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.400 there the other day and people were talking about what 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.440 time the Israelis dropped their last bomb, whether it was 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.400 twelve on the dot or eleven fifty nine pm or 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.000 eleven fifty seven pm. And so these are the conditions 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:29.520 that essentially journalists media workers are forced to live with 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:30.799 on a daily basis. 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:35.600 I mean, it's it's wild how conscientious they are. You know, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:40.720 they have to take every single minute to bomb their neighbors. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.440 So yeah, maybe tell us what the situation has been 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.400 like for journalists in particular. I imagine different parts of 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.799 the country are struggling with maybe different challenges. 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.480 Yeah, this exists on a sliding scale, obviously since twenty 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.360 twenty three, the first week post October seventh, there was 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.880 a Lebanese journalists by the name of Isam Abdalaa who 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.440 was killed. He was a Reuters photographer and that was 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.040 a strike that wounded other journalists, including journalists from AFP 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.520 and Al Jazeera. So, I mean it's been over two 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:14.160 and a half years now that there has been a 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.280 danger and that first strike that killed Isam changed the 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:22.280 way that media sesss risk in this country. Since then 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.680 a number of other journalists have also been killed. So 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.560 in that sense, there still is a fear that targeting 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.600 much like in Gaza is a thing that happens. 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.320 Of course, in Gaza was way worse. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.360 There was a way higher threat level, and I think 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.800 part of that is because there were no foreign journalists 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.360 in Gaza during that period, so it was killing of Palestinians. 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.640 And until now there has been at least one foreign 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.800 journalist who was wounded in that initial attack. Since then, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.720 most of the attacks have targeted Lebanese journalists, and particularly 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.280 Lebanese journalists working with outlets who have some sort of 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.720 we can call it line that supports or is differential 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.000 to hezbala I. Of course, this is not an excuse, right, 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.280 They're still journalists, They're still working in the media, regardless 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.120 of what their political affiliation is. These are people who 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:10.840 are there to assess information. Recently, in this latest intensification, 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.600 there have been more killings of journalists, of course, and 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.240 these are typically journalists who are working on the front 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.560 lines and in the south. You know, we can't know 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.119 what's in the minds of the Israeli military, but based 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.160 on my conversations with media professionals and media watchdogs in 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.159 the recent years, I wrote a piece for Al Jazeera 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.640 back in twenty twenty four I believe it was about 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.040 the killing of journalists in Gaza, and you know, people 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.039 at outlets like Reporters Without Borders were telling me that 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.320 at that point we're talking, you know, a year and 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.680 a half ago, it was already systematic. There was a 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.880 systematic means of trying to control the narrative through the 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.800 killing of journalists. And this is a big thing for 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.159 these groups that are you know, work really hard to 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.200 share only things that they've backed up with data. They're 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.640 not bombastic spokespeople who have some sort of critical lean 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.960 you can say, these are people who really have to 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.400 on organizations that really have to be careful with the 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.680 language that they pick and choose. So I thought that 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.680 was like a really interesting framing. So what they had 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.200 told me at the time, and I think this is 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.039 inevitably still true if you subscribe to this idea, is 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.839 that the goal was to prevent the information from getting 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.320 out from the front lines, to stop people from knowing 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.920 what was happening. And this has been clear as lately 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.320 we've seen journalists targeted and you know, this isn't a 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.679 case whereby journalists were killed, and I'm speaking specifically in Lebanon. 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.240 This also happened in Gaza, but specifically in Lebanon. In 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:42.600 the last few weeks, we've seen cases where there were 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.200 double tap strikes on journalists, that had targeted journalists, and 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.680 then the Israeli military came out, particularly with an incident 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.200 that happened I think just a little over a month 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.960 ago now. They came out and photoshopped journalists from the 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.760 TV station almonad in has Bla Fatigues and claimed that 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.880 he was part of this elite that are one forces. 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:03.640 They offered no proof for this. 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.479 The Israeli military, a spokesperson I believe it was later 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.880 admitted that this was a doctored or an AI created 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.800 photo that they that they released. But these are the 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:17.039 conditions that journalists are working with. Unfortunately, Lebanon is not 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:22.479 signatory to the ICC or the ICJ, and so these 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.080 cases though there's been pressure by media watchdogs and other 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.719 bodies to get Lebanon to sign up to join the 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.679 ICC and ICJ so that they can put forward cases 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.040 against Israel for specifically the targeting of journalists, as well 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.520 as many other actions Israelis have taken in Lebanon, particularly 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.320 South Lebanon, over the last two and a half years. 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.159 These are essentially the conditions that Lebanese journalists are working 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.680 under where their lives are at risk. I might point 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.320 out one other incident where a journalist from RT was 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.640 reporting on a bridge in South Lebanon. It was one 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.640 of the last bridges to not yet have been bombed 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.919 that would connect South Lebanon to the rest of the country. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.400 He was reporting when it was caught on video that 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.080 a strike had happened. I think there are legitimate criticisms about, 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.520 you know, this journalist's conduct in terms of placing himself. 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.200 He wasn't wearing a helmet at the time. 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.760 Those are legitimate criticisms for you know, kind of here's 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:17.600 how you can do better sort of thing. That still 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.840 does not excuse the fact that the attack happened while 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.920 the journalist was there covering. And again, regardless of the 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.760 outlets lean, regardless of what their agenda is, etc. 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:27.080 Etc. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.000 These are still media professionals working. I believe that a 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.679 warning had happened at that time, so again questions over 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.080 maybe decisions that were made. Still that does not excuse 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.800 the Israeli military action. And I've heard people say, you 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.560 know that if you work through this logic, if we 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:45.760 go back to the logic of what happened in Gaza. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.120 For example, with the first attack on a hospital, and 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:50.680 I you know, this was in the first few weeks 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.560 after October seven. You may remember at the time there 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.760 was this whole kind of debate between analysts and pundits 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.640 and talking heads and what have you. You know, Israel 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.760 wouldn't have or do that, they would never attack a hospital. 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.560 And then months later, here we are and every hospital 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.800 in Gaza. You know, at one point multiple hospitals in 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.240 Gaza were completely unoperational. Attacks that happened around hospitals at 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.080 hospitals claiming hospitals were militant centers or centers that were 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:16.920 hosting militants and all these other sort of things. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.080 Forensic Architecture has done fantastic work. 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.720 On the Gaza example of how the Israelis had structurally 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.120 gone in and dismantled Gaza Healthcare, a Palestinian healthcare in Gaza. 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.360 And I think it might be fair to say that 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.880 there's a similar logic that is working here in Lebanon. 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.440 Is that, you know, because after the murder of Isam Abdallah, 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.439 essentially there was a period where journalists were not killed 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.760 for at least, you know, a short period of time. 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.080 Then two journalists from the outlet Al Mayodine were killed, 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.400 and then since then we've had others from Maodine, from Monar, 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.000 et cetera that have been killed by the Israelis. So 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.040 you see kind of a pattern that, Okay, we can 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:57.240 get away with killing these journalists that are ostensibly working 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.760 with outlets who have some sort of affiliation or lean 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.400 towards the Hezbala narrative. That's also the case for Alahabart 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:07.920 with the newspaper that Ama Khalil worked with. She was 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.839 killed in a really horrific targeted strike just a few 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.079 days ago where her and. 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:15.840 A colleague were in the South. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.320 An attack happened, they fled into a building, then the 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.160 Israelis attacked that building. She was stuck under the rubble, 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.840 and the Israelis prevented Red Cross medics and first responders 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.000 from getting to her for a series of hours. I 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.800 think it was around seven hours, the official reporting says, 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.680 and she died. There's no way to frame this other 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.280 than that Israel attacked her and then prevented her from 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.760 receiving the treatment that she needed to be able to 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.920 continue to live and I'm always somebody who I didn't 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.600 know personally, so I can't speak to her character in 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.760 my sense, but from the reports, people reported her as 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.320 a person that was incredibly generous with her time, was 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.640 incredibly helpful, was very kind to animals. She was somebody 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.880 who was in the South for years and years, was 0:09:57.920 --> 0:09:59.679 often in the South, was constantly in the South, was 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.640 always on the front lines, felt it was for duty 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.880 to report from the front lines as much as possible. 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:05.960 You know, these are the people that the Israelis have 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:11.200 targeted until now. Without maybe going too much into, you know, 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.240 an attempt to draw some sort of pattern, I think 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.760 that what seems clear is that those people are of targets. 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.680 But we have to ask are the Israelis maybe trying 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:24.880 to expand that a bit? Because this is the first 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.240 journalist they've killed from Allahabad, right, if they've killed Manar before, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.640 they've gone onto Myodine, or they've killed Myodine and gone 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.080 and you know Monard and Myodine in one way gone on. 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.160 Talk about are they widening the scope? Are they challenging 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.520 more people? Are more people at risk? And so I 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.320 think what this does is inevitably now journalists will think 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.720 twice about going south, They'll think twice about going to 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:51.280 the front lines. Security advisors will put more caution into 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.360 allowing their journalists to go south. People will take less 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.480 risks obviously, people who will see themselves who work as targets, 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.160 maybe with outlets that the Israel are openly an opposition to, 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.199 might take different decisions, you know. So I think this 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.960 is where we end up at basically, after such killings 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:17.240 and such actions. 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.720 Referring back to the killing of the Amasail, we're recording 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.040 this April twenty seventh. As far as I'm aware, no 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.960 other journalist has been killed since she was the last 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.640 person who was killed. But we'll see what happens. But 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.439 Amada was not only doubles happed. They had been threatening 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.480 her over your text. 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.480 Message, right, Yeah, So this is a phenomenon that has happened. 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.120 Obviously it's not just journalists, but it's others as well 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.600 that have gotten threatening messages. There have been cases reporting 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.480 cases of people receiving texting We're going to attack you. Now. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.080 You can die by yourself or you can die with 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:52.600 your family. 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:54.320 And I want to be clearly until now that's not 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.240 a journalist that this has happened to Ama did receive 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:02.079 threatening text messages. Other reports have followed up and messaged 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.960 the number that messaged her. It's really hard to deduct 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.760 if this is an actual campaign, if this is somebody 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.360 within state capacity, or if these are individuals that found 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.520 her phone number and did that. However, there is a 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.440 psychological effect that takes place here right. There has been 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.440 a phenomenon of different municipalities around Lebanon receiving phone calls 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:24.840 from Israeli officials or Israeli military officials warning them of 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.240 hosting displaced people. You know, this has been reported and outlets, 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.520 including in the New York Times and others, so essentially 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.160 a psychological effect has begun to take hold with that 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.080 as well. There have been a number of calls that 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.080 are essentially fake calls, so you know, for example, a 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.440 few weeks ago, a neighbor of mine, or a neighboring 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.600 building just a couple streets over, reportedly received a warning, 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.120 a threatening call threatening them that there might be attack 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.440 on their building. Now, that attack never manifested and never developed, 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.320 at least not at that precise building, though there have 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.880 been other attacks within a walking distance of my house 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.160 in the last few weeks. That being said, you know, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.040 that has a psychological effect, because many people will not 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.840 take the risk, they'll leave. Other times, you'll find cases 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:05.800 where people will get some sort of caller, people in 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.880 the building will get some sort of call, they'll write 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:09.839 it off as fake and they won't leave their house. 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.360 And so there have been people who have seen warnings 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.040 coming one way or another. You know, I'm not saying 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:15.920 it's directly through a phone call, but through one way 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.480 or another, and thought, you know, whatever the case, we're 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:19.880 not going to leave our homes. And they end up 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:24.000 dying in strikes. So there is absolutely a psychological effect. 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.680 And we have no way of knowing if these fake 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.080 calls are coming from the Israeli military or officials or 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.160 individuals or just other people playing pranks. All those things 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.520 can be true to varying levels. A neighbor who lives 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.520 above me got a call from ostensibly a Cuban number 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.440 that was like an automated recording of sorts, and through 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.120 her mind she started thinking, you know, what are the 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.079 different possibilities of these calls? What sort of chances do 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.800 I want to take? Incidentally, a day or two later, 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.600 I got a call from a Cuban number as well, 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.120 and I just chose not to pick it up because 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.240 at that point we had figured out it was very 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.280 likely to be fake. But this has a psychological effect, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.880 and this is one of the many things that Lebanese 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.240 people are dealing with when we talk about these sort 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.360 of psychological warfare through the things like you know, calls, 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.080 warnings of your neighborhood or of your entire village at times, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.520 or maybe even of your building, sonic booms, distribution of leaflets. 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.640 All these things are happening simultaneously when we talk about 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.320 the things that I'm unreceived again, this is the targeting 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.240 of media workers and journalists, and you will see kind 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.760 of this international indifference. Luckily, now there's been kind of 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.240 more voices, i think, picking up on the fact that 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.000 journalists are a threat. And it is a case where 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.480 it seems like yesterday it was Palestinians, and today it's 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.440 Lebanese and tomorrow who could be next? And maybe this 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.480 is starting to ruminate a bit with journalists and the 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.720 international community. But you know, these are the things that 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.280 you know, we've seen happen with Lebanese journalists, that they 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.160 are directly attacked. There's been huge indifference there. There is 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.400 always kind of this, you might call it not an indifference, 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.080 but maybe kind of a hedging of so of like, yeah, 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:03.880 of course we don't condone the attack of media workers, 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.240 you know, but the affiliation with Hesbelah right, because this 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.920 thing exists on a sliding scale of sorts. International humanitary 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:12.640 law is not a super cut and dry thing all 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.800 the times. So our nuances and exceptions and whatever have 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:18.440 you under international humanitarian laws, I understand it. I mean, 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.160 media workers absolutely are off the table. They're not somebody 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.560 who can attack unless they're actually carrying and taking part 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.560 in battles. Even combatants who are not actively on the 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.120 field of battle are not legitimate targets. However, Israel does 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.920 not play by those rules. Israel will target people who 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.040 are ostensibly in Hamas or Pezbala or other such groups, 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.640 even if they're at home with their families. Till now, 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.640 nobody has held them accountable for this. 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:41.880 Right. 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.560 This is why they've been able to attack Beitut at will, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.680 to attack the suburbs at will. This is why they 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.120 can bring down buildings in the capital or in the 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.720 south and say that, you know, there were Hesbula figures 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.200 in the building, even if they were not carrying weapons, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.000 even if they were not active combatants, and the burden 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.360 of proof has not been on them though it should be. 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:00.840 So this is a sliding scale. 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:02.560 So it starts with these kind of militants and they 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.360 get away with you attacking maybe somebody who is a 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.680 former militant who's no longer carrying weapon, or somebody who's 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:10.280 not an active combatant, and it goes all the way 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.840 to media workers who have this sort of you know 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.400 what we might call kind of does not clear cut 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.040 affiliation or whatever. We should be clear that it doesn't 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.840 matter what their affiliation is as a media worker, as 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.560 a journalist, they should be protected, but because of these 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:25.520 affiliations they're not. 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:26.920 Again and Gaza. 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.400 It started with such media workers, it ended up with 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.880 more recently seeing, for example, a Palacitian journalist who worked 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.440 with the Associated Press being killed on a live stream. 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.080 So this is kind of the sliding scale that we're 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:40.040 seeing happening now. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.320 Like you said, it's widening. It's a testing of the limits. 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.720 Some outlets will get no outrage, but then they widen 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.520 the scope of it. The entire landscape and dynamic that 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.240 you're describing can only be described as terrorizing. And we've 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.280 seen this in the past, of course, like in Gaza, 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.000 they drop leaflets to terrorize people. They send those text 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.920 messages to Gossan's. I mean, I don't encourage anybody to 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.959 look for these, but there have been videos of people 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.280 fleeing their cars because they're about to be droned after 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.639 receiving a threat saying leave or your family will get 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.919 droned with you. Like, it's unbelievable. And of course, as 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:18.720 you said, we're talking about journals now, but we've seen 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.359 a targeting of like medical professionals, Like we've seen quadruple 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.760 taps at this point of medical professionals to prevent people 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.320 from helping those under the rubble, to prevent helping those 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.480 who have now then been targeted for being in an ambulance. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:46.560 I mean, it's a really outrageous state of affairs. Has 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.600 there been an exodus of foreign journalists? What's the situation 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:52.720 like for those who are in Lebanon. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:54.840 No, there's not been an exodus. You know. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.800 I think that many foreign journalists still feel that they're protected. 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.360 It's an interesting dynamic, you know, because I think, as 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:08.200 you'll know very well, right, like whenever there are active 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.359 hostilities or things like this, we have this flock of 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.359 journalists who come in and then once it kind of 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.719 calms down, they leave. And I always find that bizarre 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.560 because I feel like so much of the work to 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.480 be done happens when cesfires go into effect, because that's 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.560 when you can see the extent of damages. That's when 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:25.640 you can actually investigate and see, you know, Okay, now 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.159 that the firing has stopped, you have better access to places, 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:29.880 you can spend more time in places, you can get 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.520 deeper stories. I mean, Unfortunately, the way that media works today, 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.359 there's not the luxury of time oftentimes, you know, media 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:41.119 outlets are under staffed and underfunded, and so it's a 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.160 difficult prospect. There's still actually quite a lot of foreign 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.960 journalists here. Luckily, some of them even covered Amal Hadi's 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.639 you know, funeral, they covered her memorial, they covered what 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:53.199 happened her because it was such an egregious example, you know. 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:54.760 At the same time, I think that there is this 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:56.800 sort of dynamic the Israelis are aware of that if 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:58.960 they kill a foreign journalist right like, they can kill 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.960 they have killed a Lebanese journalists who worked for a 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.960 major international outlet, and that led to some troubles for 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.600 them because Reuters and others collaborated to do an investigation. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.600 Human rights organizations are reporting on this killing. Other Lebanese 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.720 journalists that work for less prominent outlets still led to 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.880 certain condemnations, certain reports were written. But I think that 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.199 you know, it's kind of this effect. It's like an 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.680 avalanche effect. It's that the more sort of attention goes 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.360 towards these sort of incidents, the more of a more 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.959 problem it becomes for Israel with their international partners or 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.280 or their international relations, right, And so I think there's 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.240 an acute awareness about that from the Israeli side. They 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.320 know kind of how far they can get away with 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.199 things to a certain extent, you know. I think a 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:43.840 lot of journalists are aware of that as well, and 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.080 so they feel that for until now, they can still 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.800 go into these places. But like you said, it's a 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.520 widening effect, right, It's trying to see how far you 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:52.400 can expand and how. 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:53.399 Much you can get away with. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.320 Now, let's say that you know, for example, this RT journalist, 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.359 if they had killed him, he's a British citizen, you know, 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.639 does that suddenly change the calculus or the fact that 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.919 he worked for art does that count against him? How 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.720 many politicians, let's say in Europe will come out and say, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:09.320 you know, this is wrong, the fact that it was 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.159 an RT journalist. Hopefully they still would, but it creates 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.360 this kind of you know, indecision, if you will. 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.240 It seems to me from your answer that like they 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:23.120 still expect that the current effect of their foreigness essentially. 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.679 Yeah, I think so they still carry that, and I 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:29.040