Speaker 1: Cool Media. Hello everyone, and this is it could happen here.
Speaker 1: My name is Dan al Kurd. I'm a researcher and
Speaker 1: analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I'm joined by
Speaker 1: Justin Salhani, who is a non resident fellow at the
Speaker 1: Titan Institute for Middle East Policy and a writer and
Speaker 1: journalist based in Beirut. He has worked with Al Jazeera
Speaker 1: Digital and has contributed to a number of different outlets
Speaker 1: in the past, and has been reporting on the region
Speaker 1: since twenty eleven. Justin, thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on the show. Thanks for having me so since you are,
Speaker 1: you know, based in bed with them, so intimately knowledgeable
Speaker 1: of what's been going on, I thought we could start
Speaker 1: by just kind of laying out what conditions are like
Speaker 1: in Lebanon right now.
Speaker 2: So right now, as we speak, we're in the midst
Speaker 2: of kind of a tenuous, fragile incomplete we can call
Speaker 2: it ceasefire in Beirut proper. There still is occasionally, you know,
Speaker 2: a drone overhead, this kind of infamous drone that buzzes
Speaker 2: incessantly and keeps everyone constantly on their toes. But there's
Speaker 2: been almost two weeks or a little maybe a little
Speaker 2: bit more now without an attack on Baitoo. Basically, we
Speaker 2: had that day April eighth, which is being called locally
Speaker 2: Black Wednesday, where around the country I think the numbers
Speaker 2: are now over three hundred and fifty people were killed,
Speaker 2: and many of those were in beitoots in areas that
Speaker 2: came without warning. You know, there is this kind of
Speaker 2: dynamic now where the Israeli military will at times announce
Speaker 2: warnings for certain areas, though many attacks come with no warning,
Speaker 2: and they brought down buildings without warning in some cases
Speaker 2: as well in central Bayroot. So the conditions right now
Speaker 2: are you know, relatively, I guess we can call it
Speaker 2: quiet here. Of course, that's vastly different in the south,
Speaker 2: where there was an intensification, particularly yesterday, there wasn't really
Speaker 2: any cessation of hostilities. We can talk about how the
Speaker 2: minutes leading up to April sixteen, when the ceasefire went
Speaker 2: into effect, you know, throughout the country in Lebanon, the
Speaker 2: Israelis were attacking around the country, not but in other
Speaker 2: parts of the country, particularly in the south and in
Speaker 2: the city of Sorde bombs. You know, I was down
Speaker 2: there the other day and people were talking about what
Speaker 2: time the Israelis dropped their last bomb, whether it was
Speaker 2: twelve on the dot or eleven fifty nine pm or
Speaker 2: eleven fifty seven pm. And so these are the conditions
Speaker 2: that essentially journalists media workers are forced to live with
Speaker 2: on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's wild how conscientious they are. You know,
Speaker 1: they have to take every single minute to bomb their neighbors.
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe tell us what the situation has been
Speaker 1: like for journalists in particular. I imagine different parts of
Speaker 1: the country are struggling with maybe different challenges.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this exists on a sliding scale, obviously since twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, the first week post October seventh, there was
Speaker 2: a Lebanese journalists by the name of Isam Abdalaa who
Speaker 2: was killed. He was a Reuters photographer and that was
Speaker 2: a strike that wounded other journalists, including journalists from AFP
Speaker 2: and Al Jazeera. So, I mean it's been over two
Speaker 2: and a half years now that there has been a
Speaker 2: danger and that first strike that killed Isam changed the
Speaker 2: way that media sesss risk in this country. Since then
Speaker 2: a number of other journalists have also been killed. So
Speaker 2: in that sense, there still is a fear that targeting
Speaker 2: much like in Gaza is a thing that happens.
Speaker 3: Of course, in Gaza was way worse.
Speaker 2: There was a way higher threat level, and I think
Speaker 2: part of that is because there were no foreign journalists
Speaker 2: in Gaza during that period, so it was killing of Palestinians.
Speaker 2: And until now there has been at least one foreign
Speaker 2: journalist who was wounded in that initial attack. Since then,
Speaker 2: most of the attacks have targeted Lebanese journalists, and particularly
Speaker 2: Lebanese journalists working with outlets who have some sort of
Speaker 2: we can call it line that supports or is differential
Speaker 2: to hezbala I. Of course, this is not an excuse, right,
Speaker 2: They're still journalists, They're still working in the media, regardless
Speaker 2: of what their political affiliation is. These are people who
Speaker 2: are there to assess information. Recently, in this latest intensification,
Speaker 2: there have been more killings of journalists, of course, and
Speaker 2: these are typically journalists who are working on the front
Speaker 2: lines and in the south. You know, we can't know
Speaker 2: what's in the minds of the Israeli military, but based
Speaker 2: on my conversations with media professionals and media watchdogs in
Speaker 2: the recent years, I wrote a piece for Al Jazeera
Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty four I believe it was about
Speaker 2: the killing of journalists in Gaza, and you know, people
Speaker 2: at outlets like Reporters Without Borders were telling me that
Speaker 2: at that point we're talking, you know, a year and
Speaker 2: a half ago, it was already systematic. There was a
Speaker 2: systematic means of trying to control the narrative through the
Speaker 2: killing of journalists. And this is a big thing for
Speaker 2: these groups that are you know, work really hard to
Speaker 2: share only things that they've backed up with data. They're
Speaker 2: not bombastic spokespeople who have some sort of critical lean
Speaker 2: you can say, these are people who really have to
Speaker 2: on organizations that really have to be careful with the
Speaker 2: language that they pick and choose. So I thought that
Speaker 2: was like a really interesting framing. So what they had
Speaker 2: told me at the time, and I think this is
Speaker 2: inevitably still true if you subscribe to this idea, is
Speaker 2: that the goal was to prevent the information from getting
Speaker 2: out from the front lines, to stop people from knowing
Speaker 2: what was happening. And this has been clear as lately
Speaker 2: we've seen journalists targeted and you know, this isn't a
Speaker 2: case whereby journalists were killed, and I'm speaking specifically in Lebanon.
Speaker 2: This also happened in Gaza, but specifically in Lebanon. In
Speaker 2: the last few weeks, we've seen cases where there were
Speaker 2: double tap strikes on journalists, that had targeted journalists, and
Speaker 2: then the Israeli military came out, particularly with an incident
Speaker 2: that happened I think just a little over a month
Speaker 2: ago now. They came out and photoshopped journalists from the
Speaker 2: TV station almonad in has Bla Fatigues and claimed that
Speaker 2: he was part of this elite that are one forces.
Speaker 3: They offered no proof for this.
Speaker 2: The Israeli military, a spokesperson I believe it was later
Speaker 2: admitted that this was a doctored or an AI created
Speaker 2: photo that they that they released. But these are the
Speaker 2: conditions that journalists are working with. Unfortunately, Lebanon is not
Speaker 2: signatory to the ICC or the ICJ, and so these
Speaker 2: cases though there's been pressure by media watchdogs and other
Speaker 2: bodies to get Lebanon to sign up to join the
Speaker 2: ICC and ICJ so that they can put forward cases
Speaker 2: against Israel for specifically the targeting of journalists, as well
Speaker 2: as many other actions Israelis have taken in Lebanon, particularly
Speaker 2: South Lebanon, over the last two and a half years.
Speaker 2: These are essentially the conditions that Lebanese journalists are working
Speaker 2: under where their lives are at risk. I might point
Speaker 2: out one other incident where a journalist from RT was
Speaker 2: reporting on a bridge in South Lebanon. It was one
Speaker 2: of the last bridges to not yet have been bombed
Speaker 2: that would connect South Lebanon to the rest of the country.
Speaker 2: He was reporting when it was caught on video that
Speaker 2: a strike had happened. I think there are legitimate criticisms about,
Speaker 2: you know, this journalist's conduct in terms of placing himself.
Speaker 3: He wasn't wearing a helmet at the time.
Speaker 2: Those are legitimate criticisms for you know, kind of here's
Speaker 2: how you can do better sort of thing. That still
Speaker 2: does not excuse the fact that the attack happened while
Speaker 2: the journalist was there covering. And again, regardless of the
Speaker 2: outlets lean, regardless of what their agenda is, etc.
Speaker 3: Etc.
Speaker 2: These are still media professionals working. I believe that a
Speaker 2: warning had happened at that time, so again questions over
Speaker 2: maybe decisions that were made. Still that does not excuse
Speaker 2: the Israeli military action. And I've heard people say, you
Speaker 2: know that if you work through this logic, if we
Speaker 2: go back to the logic of what happened in Gaza.
Speaker 2: For example, with the first attack on a hospital, and
Speaker 2: I you know, this was in the first few weeks
Speaker 2: after October seven. You may remember at the time there
Speaker 2: was this whole kind of debate between analysts and pundits
Speaker 2: and talking heads and what have you. You know, Israel
Speaker 2: wouldn't have or do that, they would never attack a hospital.
Speaker 2: And then months later, here we are and every hospital
Speaker 2: in Gaza. You know, at one point multiple hospitals in
Speaker 2: Gaza were completely unoperational. Attacks that happened around hospitals at
Speaker 2: hospitals claiming hospitals were militant centers or centers that were
Speaker 2: hosting militants and all these other sort of things.
Speaker 3: Forensic Architecture has done fantastic work.
Speaker 2: On the Gaza example of how the Israelis had structurally
Speaker 2: gone in and dismantled Gaza Healthcare, a Palestinian healthcare in Gaza.
Speaker 2: And I think it might be fair to say that
Speaker 2: there's a similar logic that is working here in Lebanon.
Speaker 2: Is that, you know, because after the murder of Isam Abdallah,
Speaker 2: essentially there was a period where journalists were not killed
Speaker 2: for at least, you know, a short period of time.
Speaker 2: Then two journalists from the outlet Al Mayodine were killed,
Speaker 2: and then since then we've had others from Maodine, from Monar,
Speaker 2: et cetera that have been killed by the Israelis. So
Speaker 2: you see kind of a pattern that, Okay, we can
Speaker 2: get away with killing these journalists that are ostensibly working
Speaker 2: with outlets who have some sort of affiliation or lean
Speaker 2: towards the Hezbala narrative. That's also the case for Alahabart
Speaker 2: with the newspaper that Ama Khalil worked with. She was
Speaker 2: killed in a really horrific targeted strike just a few
Speaker 2: days ago where her and.
Speaker 3: A colleague were in the South.
Speaker 2: An attack happened, they fled into a building, then the
Speaker 2: Israelis attacked that building. She was stuck under the rubble,
Speaker 2: and the Israelis prevented Red Cross medics and first responders
Speaker 2: from getting to her for a series of hours. I
Speaker 2: think it was around seven hours, the official reporting says,
Speaker 2: and she died. There's no way to frame this other
Speaker 2: than that Israel attacked her and then prevented her from
Speaker 2: receiving the treatment that she needed to be able to
Speaker 2: continue to live and I'm always somebody who I didn't
Speaker 2: know personally, so I can't speak to her character in
Speaker 2: my sense, but from the reports, people reported her as
Speaker 2: a person that was incredibly generous with her time, was
Speaker 2: incredibly helpful, was very kind to animals. She was somebody
Speaker 2: who was in the South for years and years, was
Speaker 2: often in the South, was constantly in the South, was
Speaker 2: always on the front lines, felt it was for duty
Speaker 2: to report from the front lines as much as possible.
Speaker 2: You know, these are the people that the Israelis have
Speaker 2: targeted until now. Without maybe going too much into, you know,
Speaker 2: an attempt to draw some sort of pattern, I think
Speaker 2: that what seems clear is that those people are of targets.
Speaker 2: But we have to ask are the Israelis maybe trying
Speaker 2: to expand that a bit? Because this is the first
Speaker 2: journalist they've killed from Allahabad, right, if they've killed Manar before,
Speaker 2: they've gone onto Myodine, or they've killed Myodine and gone
Speaker 2: and you know Monard and Myodine in one way gone on.
Speaker 2: Talk about are they widening the scope? Are they challenging
Speaker 2: more people? Are more people at risk? And so I
Speaker 2: think what this does is inevitably now journalists will think
Speaker 2: twice about going south, They'll think twice about going to
Speaker 2: the front lines. Security advisors will put more caution into
Speaker 2: allowing their journalists to go south. People will take less
Speaker 2: risks obviously, people who will see themselves who work as targets,
Speaker 2: maybe with outlets that the Israel are openly an opposition to,
Speaker 2: might take different decisions, you know. So I think this
Speaker 2: is where we end up at basically, after such killings
Speaker 2: and such actions.
Speaker 1: Referring back to the killing of the Amasail, we're recording
Speaker 1: this April twenty seventh. As far as I'm aware, no
Speaker 1: other journalist has been killed since she was the last
Speaker 1: person who was killed. But we'll see what happens. But
Speaker 1: Amada was not only doubles happed. They had been threatening
Speaker 1: her over your text.
Speaker 2: Message, right, Yeah, So this is a phenomenon that has happened.
Speaker 2: Obviously it's not just journalists, but it's others as well
Speaker 2: that have gotten threatening messages. There have been cases reporting
Speaker 2: cases of people receiving texting We're going to attack you. Now.
Speaker 3: You can die by yourself or you can die with
Speaker 3: your family.
Speaker 2: And I want to be clearly until now that's not
Speaker 2: a journalist that this has happened to Ama did receive
Speaker 2: threatening text messages. Other reports have followed up and messaged
Speaker 2: the number that messaged her. It's really hard to deduct
Speaker 2: if this is an actual campaign, if this is somebody
Speaker 2: within state capacity, or if these are individuals that found
Speaker 2: her phone number and did that. However, there is a
Speaker 2: psychological effect that takes place here right. There has been
Speaker 2: a phenomenon of different municipalities around Lebanon receiving phone calls
Speaker 2: from Israeli officials or Israeli military officials warning them of
Speaker 2: hosting displaced people. You know, this has been reported and outlets,
Speaker 2: including in the New York Times and others, so essentially
Speaker 2: a psychological effect has begun to take hold with that
Speaker 2: as well. There have been a number of calls that
Speaker 2: are essentially fake calls, so you know, for example, a
Speaker 2: few weeks ago, a neighbor of mine, or a neighboring
Speaker 2: building just a couple streets over, reportedly received a warning,
Speaker 2: a threatening call threatening them that there might be attack
Speaker 2: on their building. Now, that attack never manifested and never developed,
Speaker 2: at least not at that precise building, though there have
Speaker 2: been other attacks within a walking distance of my house
Speaker 2: in the last few weeks. That being said, you know,
Speaker 2: that has a psychological effect, because many people will not
Speaker 2: take the risk, they'll leave. Other times, you'll find cases
Speaker 2: where people will get some sort of caller, people in
Speaker 2: the building will get some sort of call, they'll write
Speaker 2: it off as fake and they won't leave their house.
Speaker 2: And so there have been people who have seen warnings
Speaker 2: coming one way or another. You know, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: it's directly through a phone call, but through one way
Speaker 2: or another, and thought, you know, whatever the case, we're
Speaker 2: not going to leave our homes. And they end up
Speaker 2: dying in strikes. So there is absolutely a psychological effect.
Speaker 2: And we have no way of knowing if these fake
Speaker 2: calls are coming from the Israeli military or officials or
Speaker 2: individuals or just other people playing pranks. All those things
Speaker 2: can be true to varying levels. A neighbor who lives
Speaker 2: above me got a call from ostensibly a Cuban number
Speaker 2: that was like an automated recording of sorts, and through
Speaker 2: her mind she started thinking, you know, what are the
Speaker 2: different possibilities of these calls? What sort of chances do
Speaker 2: I want to take? Incidentally, a day or two later,
Speaker 2: I got a call from a Cuban number as well,
Speaker 2: and I just chose not to pick it up because
Speaker 2: at that point we had figured out it was very
Speaker 2: likely to be fake. But this has a psychological effect,
Speaker 2: and this is one of the many things that Lebanese
Speaker 2: people are dealing with when we talk about these sort
Speaker 2: of psychological warfare through the things like you know, calls,
Speaker 2: warnings of your neighborhood or of your entire village at times,
Speaker 2: or maybe even of your building, sonic booms, distribution of leaflets.
Speaker 2: All these things are happening simultaneously when we talk about
Speaker 2: the things that I'm unreceived again, this is the targeting
Speaker 2: of media workers and journalists, and you will see kind
Speaker 2: of this international indifference. Luckily, now there's been kind of
Speaker 2: more voices, i think, picking up on the fact that
Speaker 2: journalists are a threat. And it is a case where
Speaker 2: it seems like yesterday it was Palestinians, and today it's
Speaker 2: Lebanese and tomorrow who could be next? And maybe this
Speaker 2: is starting to ruminate a bit with journalists and the
Speaker 2: international community. But you know, these are the things that
Speaker 2: you know, we've seen happen with Lebanese journalists, that they
Speaker 2: are directly attacked. There's been huge indifference there. There is
Speaker 2: always kind of this, you might call it not an indifference,
Speaker 2: but maybe kind of a hedging of so of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: of course we don't condone the attack of media workers,
Speaker 2: you know, but the affiliation with Hesbelah right, because this
Speaker 2: thing exists on a sliding scale of sorts. International humanitary
Speaker 2: law is not a super cut and dry thing all
Speaker 2: the times. So our nuances and exceptions and whatever have
Speaker 2: you under international humanitarian laws, I understand it. I mean,
Speaker 2: media workers absolutely are off the table. They're not somebody
Speaker 2: who can attack unless they're actually carrying and taking part
Speaker 2: in battles. Even combatants who are not actively on the
Speaker 2: field of battle are not legitimate targets. However, Israel does
Speaker 2: not play by those rules. Israel will target people who
Speaker 2: are ostensibly in Hamas or Pezbala or other such groups,
Speaker 2: even if they're at home with their families. Till now,
Speaker 2: nobody has held them accountable for this.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: This is why they've been able to attack Beitut at will,
Speaker 2: to attack the suburbs at will. This is why they
Speaker 2: can bring down buildings in the capital or in the
Speaker 2: south and say that, you know, there were Hesbula figures
Speaker 2: in the building, even if they were not carrying weapons,
Speaker 2: even if they were not active combatants, and the burden
Speaker 2: of proof has not been on them though it should be.
Speaker 3: So this is a sliding scale.
Speaker 2: So it starts with these kind of militants and they
Speaker 2: get away with you attacking maybe somebody who is a
Speaker 2: former militant who's no longer carrying weapon, or somebody who's
Speaker 2: not an active combatant, and it goes all the way
Speaker 2: to media workers who have this sort of you know
Speaker 2: what we might call kind of does not clear cut
Speaker 2: affiliation or whatever. We should be clear that it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter what their affiliation is as a media worker, as
Speaker 2: a journalist, they should be protected, but because of these
Speaker 2: affiliations they're not.
Speaker 3: Again and Gaza.
Speaker 2: It started with such media workers, it ended up with
Speaker 2: more recently seeing, for example, a Palacitian journalist who worked
Speaker 2: with the Associated Press being killed on a live stream.
Speaker 2: So this is kind of the sliding scale that we're
Speaker 2: seeing happening now.
Speaker 1: Like you said, it's widening. It's a testing of the limits.
Speaker 1: Some outlets will get no outrage, but then they widen
Speaker 1: the scope of it. The entire landscape and dynamic that
Speaker 1: you're describing can only be described as terrorizing. And we've
Speaker 1: seen this in the past, of course, like in Gaza,
Speaker 1: they drop leaflets to terrorize people. They send those text
Speaker 1: messages to Gossan's. I mean, I don't encourage anybody to
Speaker 1: look for these, but there have been videos of people
Speaker 1: fleeing their cars because they're about to be droned after
Speaker 1: receiving a threat saying leave or your family will get
Speaker 1: droned with you. Like, it's unbelievable. And of course, as
Speaker 1: you said, we're talking about journals now, but we've seen
Speaker 1: a targeting of like medical professionals, Like we've seen quadruple
Speaker 1: taps at this point of medical professionals to prevent people
Speaker 1: from helping those under the rubble, to prevent helping those
Speaker 1: who have now then been targeted for being in an ambulance.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a really outrageous state of affairs. Has
Speaker 1: there been an exodus of foreign journalists? What's the situation
Speaker 1: like for those who are in Lebanon.
Speaker 3: No, there's not been an exodus. You know.
Speaker 2: I think that many foreign journalists still feel that they're protected.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting dynamic, you know, because I think, as
Speaker 2: you'll know very well, right, like whenever there are active
Speaker 2: hostilities or things like this, we have this flock of
Speaker 2: journalists who come in and then once it kind of
Speaker 2: calms down, they leave. And I always find that bizarre
Speaker 2: because I feel like so much of the work to
Speaker 2: be done happens when cesfires go into effect, because that's
Speaker 2: when you can see the extent of damages. That's when
Speaker 2: you can actually investigate and see, you know, Okay, now
Speaker 2: that the firing has stopped, you have better access to places,
Speaker 2: you can spend more time in places, you can get
Speaker 2: deeper stories. I mean, Unfortunately, the way that media works today,
Speaker 2: there's not the luxury of time oftentimes, you know, media
Speaker 2: outlets are under staffed and underfunded, and so it's a
Speaker 2: difficult prospect. There's still actually quite a lot of foreign
Speaker 2: journalists here. Luckily, some of them even covered Amal Hadi's
Speaker 2: you know, funeral, they covered her memorial, they covered what
Speaker 2: happened her because it was such an egregious example, you know.
Speaker 2: At the same time, I think that there is this
Speaker 2: sort of dynamic the Israelis are aware of that if
Speaker 2: they kill a foreign journalist right like, they can kill
Speaker 2: they have killed a Lebanese journalists who worked for a
Speaker 2: major international outlet, and that led to some troubles for
Speaker 2: them because Reuters and others collaborated to do an investigation.
Speaker 2: Human rights organizations are reporting on this killing. Other Lebanese
Speaker 2: journalists that work for less prominent outlets still led to
Speaker 2: certain condemnations, certain reports were written. But I think that
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of this effect. It's like an
Speaker 2: avalanche effect. It's that the more sort of attention goes
Speaker 2: towards these sort of incidents, the more of a more
Speaker 2: problem it becomes for Israel with their international partners or
Speaker 2: or their international relations, right, And so I think there's
Speaker 2: an acute awareness about that from the Israeli side. They
Speaker 2: know kind of how far they can get away with
Speaker 2: things to a certain extent, you know. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of journalists are aware of that as well, and
Speaker 2: so they feel that for until now, they can still
Speaker 2: go into these places. But like you said, it's a
Speaker 2: widening effect, right, It's trying to see how far you
Speaker 2: can expand and how.
Speaker 3: Much you can get away with.
Speaker 2: Now, let's say that you know, for example, this RT journalist,
Speaker 2: if they had killed him, he's a British citizen, you know,
Speaker 2: does that suddenly change the calculus or the fact that
Speaker 2: he worked for art does that count against him? How
Speaker 2: many politicians, let's say in Europe will come out and say,
Speaker 2: you know, this is wrong, the fact that it was
Speaker 2: an RT journalist. Hopefully they still would, but it creates
Speaker 2: this kind of you know, indecision, if you will.
Speaker 1: It seems to me from your answer that like they
Speaker 1: still expect that the current effect of their foreigness essentially.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so they still carry that, and I
Speaker 2: think they have an awareness of that. You know, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't want to speak on their behalf. And there's always layers, right,
Speaker 2: There's the ones who parachute in who may be a
Speaker 2: good basis in the region. There are those who are
Speaker 2: based here and have been here a long time. There
Speaker 2: are those who speak the language and understand the culture.
Speaker 2: There are those who don't. And I mean, like this
Speaker 2: is not to single out foreign journalists. There are local
Speaker 2: journalists for amazing and their local journalists for horrible obviously, right,
Speaker 2: but I think that there is kind of a thought
Speaker 2: process that, yeah, carrying you know, a foreign passport, working
Speaker 2: for a major organization still comes with some sort of protection.
Speaker 2: But I mean, at the same time, this also means
Speaker 2: that the Israelis killing the journalists that they have killed.
Speaker 3: It's not a mistake, right.
Speaker 2: I can think off the top of my head of
Speaker 2: at least two journalists who were killed in their homes.
Speaker 2: And so you know, again, this is attacking civilian infrastructure,
Speaker 2: attacking buildings, and that comes with a different sort of criticisms.
Speaker 2: But if we're talking just about the operation of journalists
Speaker 2: while they're doing their jobs, you know, while they're driving
Speaker 2: in cars, while they're covering sometimes conflicts, sometimes you know,
Speaker 2: maybe just moving from one place to the other, it
Speaker 2: becomes very clear that you know, if you feel protected
Speaker 2: by the fact that you have a foreign passport, that
Speaker 2: also means that the Israelis are aware of who they're.
Speaker 3: Attacking and when they're attacking aids.
Speaker 2: You know, we've seen things, for example, like recently, you know,
Speaker 2: compared to the killing of people, this.
Speaker 3: Might be a minor.
Speaker 2: Example, but we saw this thing that got a lot
Speaker 2: of international attention of an Israeli soldier destroying a statue
Speaker 2: of Jesus in a Catholic town in the south of Lebanon.
Speaker 2: And then more recently there was the destruction of solar
Speaker 2: panels in another Christian town in south Lebanon, and the
Speaker 2: Israeli military will come out and say things like, you know,
Speaker 2: this does not represent the values of the Israeli military.
Speaker 2: So okay, then there's the targeting and killing of journalists.
Speaker 3: Does that represent the you know?
Speaker 2: And then and then additionally, I think it's important to
Speaker 2: say that with the level of data, with the level
Speaker 2: of precision that the Israelis have that they've killed at times.
Speaker 2: You know, I visited a scene in a Christian town
Speaker 2: just east of Beyroot, in a place called Ainasade, where
Speaker 2: our you know, mutual friend Ayub grew up, and we
Speaker 2: saw the attack, the side of the attack, and I
Speaker 2: went to a building behind the building that attack that had,
Speaker 2: you know, we had the view from up top and
Speaker 2: you could see that two holes were in the rooftop
Speaker 2: of the building that was struck and it's because the
Speaker 2: shells went through or the rockets went through the top
Speaker 2: of the building through the roof, went down a floor
Speaker 2: below and then exploded and killed. Well, we ended up
Speaker 2: killing a local Christian official, and that was, according to Israelis,
Speaker 2: not the target of who they wanted to kill. But
Speaker 2: the point being is that they have this technology that
Speaker 2: they can attack precisely certain areas. They can attack to
Speaker 2: the apartment, They can blow out the walls of one
Speaker 2: apartment and leave the one a floor below or two
Speaker 2: floors below intact.
Speaker 3: And they've done this.
Speaker 2: They did this at a hotel just five minutes away.
Speaker 2: Some ostensible Iranian officials were staying in a hotel.
Speaker 3: They destroyed that room.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that at times there aren't other people
Speaker 2: nearby that are hurt. But if you're able to attack,
Speaker 2: and you know the figures that you are going after,
Speaker 2: and it is this precise, then what is the need
Speaker 2: to take down entire buildings or what is your excuse
Speaker 2: when you're going after media workers. Now they say it
Speaker 2: in a sense of, you know, like they did with
Speaker 2: this Monar correspondent that he was a member of the
Speaker 2: broad one forces. But again they've provided no information to
Speaker 2: do that. You know, these are people who who have
Speaker 2: very public facing social media accounts. These are people who
Speaker 2: are in the public eye, who are on TV, who
Speaker 2: are doing all these sort of things. So you know,
Speaker 2: it really begs to ask many, many questions of the Israelis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, statues are off limits.
Speaker 3: But people are okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: A fair game. So there's a cease fire. Now what
Speaker 1: are people expecting for bat and what does cisfar look like?
Speaker 1: As you said, the attacks are still going on in
Speaker 1: the south, but what are people expecting for these different
Speaker 1: parts of Lebanon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the South is still very active and yesterday was
Speaker 2: a particularly brutal day with attacks across the area. There
Speaker 2: was a forced evacuation orders for areas above the Latani River,
Speaker 2: which for anyone following, you know, there's been this whole
Speaker 2: kind of dynamic about disarming haswell below the Lea Tani River,
Speaker 2: which runs across south Lebanon. The Israelis have previously issued
Speaker 2: evacuation orders for above the Latani as well, reaching up
Speaker 2: to another river called the Zaharani. According to Human Rights
Speaker 2: someone at Human Rights Watch Choice spoke to these evacuation
Speaker 2: demands to comply with international humanitarian law, they need to
Speaker 2: be precise, they need to be exact, and they need
Speaker 2: to be temporary. You know, you need to leave your
Speaker 2: home now because we're attacking a target. But you know,
Speaker 2: they can't be open ended the way that they've been
Speaker 2: with the Israelis, and they cannot be indiscriminate the way
Speaker 2: that they've been of demanding the entirety of South Lebanon
Speaker 2: to move north, or the entirety of the southern suburbs.
Speaker 2: So attacks on Bedut after Black Wednesday have come to
Speaker 2: a halt. And it's also true for the southern suburbs,
Speaker 2: which you know, have been an area whereby they've suffered many,
Speaker 2: many attacks, and so it's a bit of a stranger respite.
Speaker 2: At the same time, I think people have gone home
Speaker 2: to check on their houses. Some people have gone home
Speaker 2: to just stay in their houses for a variety of reasons,
Speaker 2: either because they might feel that it's safe for this moment,
Speaker 2: or you know, they're they're hedging their beds. But still
Speaker 2: a lot of people have not returned home. Many of
Speaker 2: them cannot. These are obviously people at the South, or
Speaker 2: you cannot if you've had your home destroyed in the
Speaker 2: South or in the Southern suburbs or parts of the
Speaker 2: eastern Bacav Valley. You know, I've got a school by
Speaker 2: my house which is hosting displaced people, and it's still
Speaker 2: filled with the displaced, either because they cannot go home
Speaker 2: or because, as many have told me, they don't trust
Speaker 2: that this ceasefire will hold. Obviously, in places like the South,
Speaker 2: it has not held, and it's still ongoing with attacks
Speaker 2: coming from both sides. In Beidut, you know, it's calm
Speaker 2: in a sense for this moment. They're they're like I'm in,
Speaker 2: and there's still a drone overhead. At times, there have
Speaker 2: been reports of warplanes flying over different parts of the country.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's still this doubt if this ceasefire,
Speaker 2: this truce will hold. So we're kind of expecting or
Speaker 2: waiting any moment. But I should say that this was
Speaker 2: also true of the twenty twenty four sees fire to
Speaker 2: an extent. Now, in twenty twenty four, immediately the next day,
Speaker 2: people went home, They drove home, they drove south, they
Speaker 2: went ahead with it. Of course, the attacks from the
Speaker 2: Israelis did not stop in the south, in Beirut and
Speaker 2: the southern suburbs predominantly. There were a few attacks in
Speaker 2: the southern suburbs, but not regular attacks. You know, a
Speaker 2: kind of normalcy returned a bit. However, there was still
Speaker 2: kind of this attitude of waiting and seeing what would happen,
Speaker 2: because very few people trust the Israelis to stop the attacks.
Speaker 2: Very few people trust that the Israelis want to stop
Speaker 2: the war. At this point, in time, they're stronger. They're
Speaker 2: the hegemon in the region. They controlled the skies to
Speaker 2: a large extent, they control the seas, and now in
Speaker 2: southern Lebanon they also, you know, to an extent, control
Speaker 2: parts of the land. And so I think that the
Speaker 2: attitude here is very much one of this truth is tenuous.
Speaker 3: We're living day by day.
Speaker 2: We're waiting to see if tomorrow, you know, we have
Speaker 2: to return to kind of a pre April sixteen reality
Speaker 2: where we're checking our shoulders, we're deciding in which streets
Speaker 2: to go down. You know, those of us who are
Speaker 2: lucky enough to maybe have relatives or friends in other
Speaker 2: parts of the country that we feel we can go
Speaker 2: to be a bit safer, are you know, waiting to
Speaker 2: do that again. Maybe initially there was something of an
Speaker 2: exhale kind of okay, we know that we're going to
Speaker 2: be okay for or we hope will be okay for
Speaker 2: at least a few days. But as the days go on,
Speaker 2: and as there's been no conclusion to this issue, and
Speaker 2: of course we know that these are connected to the
Speaker 2: Iran US discussions, which are in a whole other place themselves,
Speaker 2: I think everyone's just kind of waiting to see what develops,
Speaker 2: and there is the sort of bated breath.
Speaker 1: And of course the reality, I mean, even if the
Speaker 1: ceasfire holds for a bit, like the reality is that
Speaker 1: the situation on the ground has changed, whether it's how
Speaker 1: much land they've taken, there's like a new yellow line
Speaker 1: and love it on in the same way that they've
Speaker 1: constricted Gaza. And also the damage that's been left behind,
Speaker 1: not just of the infrastructure, but of the herbicides that
Speaker 1: they're spraying and the environmental destruction. So there's just so
Speaker 1: much to think about. Thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: on and making time to talk about this, and please
Speaker 1: stay safe.
Speaker 3: May my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Donner.
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