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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Michael and I'm Scott Sashnik. On this weekly podcast,

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Speaker 1: we explore the big money issues in the world of

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Speaker 1: sports and talk to some of the biggest players in

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Speaker 1: the industry. On this week's show, we will be talking

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Speaker 1: with the UFC c oh Laurence Epstein. But first joining

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Speaker 1: us is Bloomberg Business of Sports reporter Evan Noby Williams.

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Speaker 1: And we have to start with NASCAR because this is huge,

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Speaker 1: my goodness. It has been in the France family since

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Speaker 1: Big Bill France, since nineteen I just shut off our

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Speaker 1: mikes and you just watch whatever you want to say, yeah, yeah, you.

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Speaker 1: When we go to the next topic, bring us in, Mike,

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Speaker 1: Michael Barr, Ladies and gentlemen, time big Bill France, founder

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Speaker 1: of NASCAR nineteen forty eight. It has been a family

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Speaker 1: owned business the organization since that time. And now there

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Speaker 1: is word, my goodness, that they are talking about selling it.

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised, No, I'm not surprised because attendance has

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Speaker 1: been weighed down, especially throughout the decade, and if you've

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Speaker 1: seen some of the races, the stands aren't even half full. Now.

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Speaker 1: Talladega was all right recently because it was a full

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Speaker 1: stand but as the Superspeedway and and it gets a

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Speaker 1: lot of television, big audience for that, but some of

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Speaker 1: the smaller races, and I worry about that. I worry

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Speaker 1: about those tracks. So apparently they've engaged Goldman Sachs to

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Speaker 1: explore options. One of those options would be a sale.

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Speaker 1: And the question is if it's not in the d

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Speaker 1: n A, and it is obviously in the France family.

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Speaker 1: It's the d n A of racing, who buys it

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Speaker 1: and what do they do with it? Is this going

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Speaker 1: to be one of these private equity firms takes over NASCAR.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how well that sits with the core

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Speaker 1: fan base. They made a pitch to sort of appeal

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Speaker 1: to the casual fan, not that core customer. I only

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Speaker 1: think that worked out too well. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: what you do with NASCAR. Bar you're way closer to

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Speaker 1: it than anybody else. So what do you do with NASCAR?

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Speaker 1: You can probably draw some comparisons to f one. You

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Speaker 1: know another racing series that sold about two years ago,

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Speaker 1: I guess to Liberty Media. So it was a it

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Speaker 1: was a finance group that came in and did it.

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Speaker 1: They did it for reasons that they felt they could

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Speaker 1: make the sport new and profitable in different ways. You know,

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Speaker 1: they felt like F one was lagging socially, lagging in

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Speaker 1: in in digital, lagging an online content, etcetera. Um, that's

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Speaker 1: Chase Carey exactly. Um, you could see an argument for

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Speaker 1: for maybe NASCAR needing a new infusion. I don't imagine

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Speaker 1: NASCAR is worth eight billion dollars, which is what F

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Speaker 1: one went for. But we'll see if if the Friends

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Speaker 1: family eventually goes on, we'll see how this turns out.

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Speaker 1: Let's move on now to our next topic. My goodness,

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Speaker 1: Peyton Manning is he going to be a part owner

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Speaker 1: of the Carolina Panthers. I love when the limited partners,

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Speaker 1: at least those who are being rumored and courted, when

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Speaker 1: they start leaking out like the other NFL owners and

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Speaker 1: Jerry Richardson, I don't think they really care. If Peyton

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Speaker 1: Manning is a limited partner and Ben Navarro's bid, how

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Speaker 1: much can you pay me? Are you approvable? That's what

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Speaker 1: matters here. This is the lead guy, Ben Navarro, the

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Speaker 1: LPs listen. You want folks who bring disparate interests, who

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Speaker 1: bring some entertainment, some real estate, some finance to round

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Speaker 1: out a group. And we spoke with Alan kuston Baum

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Speaker 1: in Bloomberg headquarters last week. He told us he's got

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Speaker 1: that kind of limited partner makeup. He wouldn't give us

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Speaker 1: any names, but your LPs have to bring something these days,

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Speaker 1: more than cash. And I know Peyton is or was

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Speaker 1: the face of the NFL, so it didn't hurt, but

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Speaker 1: it's not a must have. Who better than Peyton though,

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Speaker 1: I mean he's obviously he's a guy who I'll answer,

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Speaker 1: I'd rather have a Peter Goober. I'd rather have I mean,

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Speaker 1: people who bring some real expertise in something, assuming that

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Speaker 1: there are also limited partners who are there just because

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Speaker 1: of the face, you know, being able to, you know,

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Speaker 1: put a face on a on a and people don't

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Speaker 1: really know who Ben Navarro is, right, and if he

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Speaker 1: can become the big group that is Peyton Manning's big group.

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Speaker 1: Not unlike we've seen with other celebrities in the past.

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Speaker 1: Jay Z certainly comes to mind in in Brooklyn. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He seems like a perfect person. He's like, possibly the

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Speaker 1: most popular of the decade, if not more. But he

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Speaker 1: better come with cash. I wouldn't give any discounts I'll

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Speaker 1: say that if I'm Ben Navarre's sure, Peyton love to

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Speaker 1: have you. Your your portion comes to X million. Now

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Speaker 1: where's the check? Well, now he's turned down Peyton Manning.

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Speaker 1: He's since he retired, he's turned down several offers from

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Speaker 1: ESPN and Fox, and each willing to pay ten million

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Speaker 1: dollars a year for him to work in the broadcast.

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Speaker 1: I'll never learn. I don't understand what bringing Peyton Manning

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Speaker 1: does for the ratings. If you have good games, people

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Speaker 1: will watch. This is like the Megan Kelly syndrome. NBC

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Speaker 1: brought her into revamp the Today Show, didn't work, and

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Speaker 1: they're paying her an astronomical fee. If you got good programming,

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Speaker 1: people will watch. Let's move on to our next topic,

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Speaker 1: and let's talk about the UFC ESPN marriage. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: doubted somewhat. Others out there doubted how much UFC would command,

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Speaker 1: and I guess in the end Ari Emmanuel laughs last,

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Speaker 1: because he got a hundred and fifty million dollars from ESPN.

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Speaker 1: For that's the key here. This is only about thirty

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Speaker 1: of their content, and he got a hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollars, which is about what Fox was paying for

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Speaker 1: the whole shebang last time. Yeah, when when it came

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Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago that UFC was expecting

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Speaker 1: four hundred million total for its package, I mean a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in this industry left and they're probably

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Speaker 1: not gonna get to four hundred, but there seems like

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Speaker 1: they're going to clear three hundred. Uh and they may

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Speaker 1: end up closer to four hundred than three hundred. This

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Speaker 1: is a huge number for UFC. It's great for them,

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Speaker 1: and that you know, it pairs them with with ESPN Plus,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of the new ESPN initiative. It helps

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Speaker 1: ESPN get more content. Sure, and yeah, Scott said, UFC

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Speaker 1: is still out there with a linear package. You know,

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Speaker 1: almost two thirds of what they offer that they will

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Speaker 1: have to to sign with a broadcast company, maybe Fox,

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Speaker 1: maybe NBC, something along those lines. Well, more importantly, like

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Speaker 1: you were saying, is like what does this do now

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Speaker 1: for ESPN? As you mentioned Evan, because now you're talking

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Speaker 1: about a sport where at least they're going to have

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Speaker 1: what fifteen events that they're going to stream through this.

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Speaker 1: UFC scales as a demo younger, So these folks are

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Speaker 1: watching these events on their iPads, on their phones. And

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Speaker 1: this is about again, ESPN is a reason why they

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Speaker 1: spent what they did on bam Tech three billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: They knew they had to get in the space. They

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Speaker 1: knew that it had the technology had to work. And

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Speaker 1: this is about where in the next fifteen years where

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Speaker 1: people even main broadcast components, where NFL games, we're NBA,

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Speaker 1: Where is this stuff going to be seen over the top?

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Speaker 1: And you can bet every league out there is excited

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Speaker 1: about the number that UFC got for when their rights

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Speaker 1: are up and they're willing to talk to the border.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to Bloomberg Business of Sports reporter Evan now Williams

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Speaker 1: speak of the UFC. Let's talk more about it now

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Speaker 1: with this week's interview with UFC CE Lawrence Epstein. Lawrence

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Speaker 1: is a lawyer as well as a big fan of boxing,

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Speaker 1: UFC and m m A. That's right, Bar and Lawrence,

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Speaker 1: thanks very much for joining us, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with the big news the week Bar referenced it,

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Speaker 1: it's the new deal with ESPN. What's the most important

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Speaker 1: part of this whole thing? Is it just that the

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Speaker 1: deal is done? Is it that it's ESPN? The exclusivity

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Speaker 1: of a Premier O T T package. What is the

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Speaker 1: most important part for UFC, You know, I think it's

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Speaker 1: probably all of those, in addition to a few other things.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that's very very exciting for us

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Speaker 1: is that ESPN Plus and the ESPN app we're going

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Speaker 1: to become a seller of our pay per view products.

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Speaker 1: So we're very also excited about that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: this is really a groundbreaking deal for the UFC. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing is only sold about a third of

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Speaker 1: our content, So we've got a couple of we've got

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Speaker 1: more more to sell to uh major media companies. So

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Speaker 1: let's be specific for those who aren't familiar with the

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Speaker 1: deals of the pests. So this is a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty million dollars a year for, as you say, a

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Speaker 1: third of the content. Previously, Fox was paying about about

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Speaker 1: the same thing, about a hundred and fifty million for

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Speaker 1: the whole shebang. So I'm starting to see an increase

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Speaker 1: in value for your rights. Yes, I agree with you

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Speaker 1: that the content has absolutely become more valuable. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: so long ago where remember UFC, you could what would

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Speaker 1: it be licensed to all that? Now you're in business

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Speaker 1: with the Walt Disney company. How did we get here

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Speaker 1: in such for me seems like such a short period

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Speaker 1: of time. It's incredible. When we bought the company back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand one, this this product was essentially banned

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Speaker 1: from pay per view, And as we fast forward over

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Speaker 1: the years, we went from being banned on pay per

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Speaker 1: view to ultimately getting a pay per view deal, to

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Speaker 1: then going to to Spike UH, and then going to

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Speaker 1: the Fox platforms and Fox Sports One and Fox Sports too,

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Speaker 1: and now we've done this incredible deal with ESPN and

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Speaker 1: ESPN Plus. So it's been an incredible transformation over the years.

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Speaker 1: This whole thing starts January of next year, and I

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Speaker 1: understand what is at least what fifteen events. That's correct,

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Speaker 1: There's gonna be fifteen live UFC events that will rustream

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Speaker 1: exclusively on the ESPN Plus platform. In addition to that,

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Speaker 1: we're going to do a run of what we call

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Speaker 1: is Dana White's Contender Series, which is sort of up

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Speaker 1: and coming fighters that are trying to get into the UFC.

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Speaker 1: That'll be UH. That'll be ten episodes that will also

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Speaker 1: be exclusive on the ESPN Plus platform. There's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a bunch of library content that we're gonna be putting

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Speaker 1: on ESPN Plus and then a whole bunch of branded

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Speaker 1: series and then in all sorts of different shows that

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Speaker 1: will be both airing on ESPN A Plus and also

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Speaker 1: on the ESPN flagship networks. This is a game changer.

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Speaker 1: You have two million fans around the world. This provides

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Speaker 1: that product to them in a brand new way. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've got such a young fan base and they're so

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Speaker 1: used to consuming content, you know, when they want it,

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Speaker 1: and how they want it, and what on what device

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Speaker 1: they want it, and so the ESPN platform obviously gives

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Speaker 1: us the ability to reach those young fans that are

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Speaker 1: super into us. Well, there's still a thing called the

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Speaker 1: television I know in the bar that's is black and

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Speaker 1: white filt things you're you have to stand up to

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Speaker 1: actually change the channel with. But you still have another

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Speaker 1: component of this deal coming. What are you looking for

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Speaker 1: in a partner in a linear sense that can operate

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Speaker 1: with ESPN in conjunction with or how do they help

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Speaker 1: each other? How are they syntergesting? Well, the next deal

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see us do is definitely going to be

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Speaker 1: focused on reach. Um, We're we're gonna want to do

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Speaker 1: a deal that's going to be able to connect with

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Speaker 1: as many people as possible to help us continue to

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Speaker 1: grow uh the UFC brand and expose our product to

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Speaker 1: as many people who possibly can. But the game plan

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Speaker 1: for all these deals is to create exactly what you

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Speaker 1: set synergies between what we're doing with the ESPN plus

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Speaker 1: what we're going to do with you know, a broad

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Speaker 1: reach partner, and then of course, you know what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do to continue to grow our pay per view business,

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Speaker 1: which continues to be a really important part of our

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Speaker 1: financial model. We are chatting with the CEO of UFC,

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Speaker 1: Lawrence Epstein, and Lawrence look Ahead too. You know, when

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Speaker 1: all the major leagues have their deals up, there was

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Speaker 1: a speculation that, oh there's a sports rights bubble and

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Speaker 1: and what's going to happen? Can you even fathom what?

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Speaker 1: And I know we're only we're only three years away,

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Speaker 1: but what kind of numbers are we looking at? If

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Speaker 1: I'm Adam Silver, if I'm Roger Goodell, if I'm the

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Speaker 1: owner of these teams? How happy am I when I

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Speaker 1: see an O T T platform paying this kind of

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Speaker 1: money for not a whole shebang, like you said, for

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Speaker 1: a percentage of what's capable. How happy should the leagues

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Speaker 1: and owners be at this point in time. I think

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Speaker 1: they've got to be incredibly happy. You know, sports rights

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Speaker 1: people continue to say there's a bubble here, that the

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Speaker 1: growth has got to stop, but the reality is is

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Speaker 1: that the market belies those assertions, and you know, people

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Speaker 1: still love sports. We're seeing it here in my hometown

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Speaker 1: of Las Vegas, where the Golden Knights are just taken

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Speaker 1: over the town and you know, it's it's amazing to

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Speaker 1: see how powerful sports are. They continue to be powerful,

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Speaker 1: and that's why people want to pay big dollars to

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Speaker 1: put them on their platforms. And as part of this

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Speaker 1: deal with ESPN, there's some sort of limited ad component,

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Speaker 1: is there not because your fans you said, they're younger,

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Speaker 1: they're used to getting it how they want it. What

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Speaker 1: you know, where they want it and how they wanted

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Speaker 1: is not being interrupted all the time. There's no doubt

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Speaker 1: about that. When you're when you're part of a subscription service,

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Speaker 1: you're you're paying a monthly fee and you probably want

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Speaker 1: to be a less disservice by ads. That being said,

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Speaker 1: they're still going to be integration of sponsors into the product,

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Speaker 1: like like we do now with our our pay per

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Speaker 1: view and ESPN does have the flexibility to put ads

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Speaker 1: into the ESPN plus a product around around our events.

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Speaker 1: I have to talk about an event that's coming up

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Speaker 1: for you guys, UFC two twenty four and Bettett. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've got a big event down in uh Rio di Janeiro, Brazil.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately I will not be making it, but it's going

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Speaker 1: to be uh why aren't you going? Where aren't you going?

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Speaker 1: You know, I've been working on TV deals, so trying

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Speaker 1: to stay close to home. But I love Brazil. I

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Speaker 1: wish I was going to be able to make the

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Speaker 1: trip down there, but going to be an exciting event.

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Speaker 1: Send us in your place. We'll go Scott and I

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Speaker 1: will go Yeah live from Yeah Arial. I'm I bring

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Speaker 1: this up though, because it shows that, you know, again

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Speaker 1: how the UFC has grown every year, every year and

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Speaker 1: it continues to grow and again this brings excitement to

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Speaker 1: the fans. Well you mentioned, you know, an event in

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Speaker 1: Rio dijan Are, Brazil, and I think it's something that

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Speaker 1: makes the the UFC unique among the fair amount of

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Speaker 1: sports out there in the sense that we've got a

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Speaker 1: global sport and a global brand. So I'm a huge

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Speaker 1: NFL fan. Uh NFL is huge in the US, but

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that big in France, or in or

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Speaker 1: in India. But the UFC, you know, continues to resonate

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Speaker 1: in countries around the world. I mean, we're on television

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Speaker 1: now on a hundred and fifty countries and reaching about

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Speaker 1: one point one billion homes globally. So it's something that's

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Speaker 1: really exciting about the UFC is the global reach that

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Speaker 1: we have. Where are the potential growth markets? You mentioned

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Speaker 1: India and every time I talked to Adam Silver, he's

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Speaker 1: talking about India and folks like Mukesh and Bani are

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Speaker 1: looking to grow the game there. You've got an Indian

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Speaker 1: owner in the vec ran A div How do you

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Speaker 1: work UFC. Is it important to have a fighter from

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Speaker 1: that area? Is that the best way to drum up interest?

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Speaker 1: And where are the potential growth targets? There's no doubt

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Speaker 1: that it's great to have a fighter from a particular country.

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Speaker 1: Is build interest. But that being said, you know, the

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Speaker 1: sport is one that people can understand quickly and get

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Speaker 1: into very quickly. There's not a lot of rules to it.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned India. Obviously, cricket a huge sport down

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Speaker 1: in India. Very complicated. I mean, I've tried to understand

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Speaker 1: the sport. It's it's challenging to understand unless you've been

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Speaker 1: brought up with it, unless you have a unless you

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Speaker 1: have a week to watch an event too. That's true.

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Speaker 1: The great thing about UFC is, I mean you can

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Speaker 1: really get into it pretty quickly. You can understand putting

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Speaker 1: two athletes in an octagon and letting them use any

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Speaker 1: martial art they want. Yes, there's nuanced to it once

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Speaker 1: you get into it, but the entree is very easy.

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Speaker 1: So the sport really scales and is something that you know,

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Speaker 1: people like around the world. We talk about specific countries,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're talking first Brazil, which is our number

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Speaker 1: two market globally, and there's a lot of upside there,

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Speaker 1: a lot of great athletes from Brazil and we've we've

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Speaker 1: really built a great business uh uh there over the

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Speaker 1: last ten or fifteen years. As far as markets are

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Speaker 1: really targeting right now, you know, China is at the

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Speaker 1: top of the list. It's it's jumped up from a

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Speaker 1: top twenty market revenue wise to a top five market

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Speaker 1: revenue wise, and it's it's really growing, and you're gonna

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Speaker 1: see us make some pretty significant investments in that market

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Speaker 1: over the next few years. We did our first event

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving weekend in Shanghai U last year, huge success, sold out,

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Speaker 1: and so we're gonna be back this year in either

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Speaker 1: Shanghai or Beijing, hopefully around the same time. Where does

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Speaker 1: that investment com fromt What what does it look like

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Speaker 1: when you say we're about to make some big investments

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Speaker 1: in China? What does that entail? Does that entail opening

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Speaker 1: up a UFC bar restaurant? Is that hosting events? What

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Speaker 1: do you talk about when you say making investment to

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Speaker 1: help grow the sport? There? Uh, several things. First of all,

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Speaker 1: of course, doing live event in the market. Second, working

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Speaker 1: on talent development, so trying to foster the development of

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Speaker 1: of of athletes in the market um. Third, building a

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Speaker 1: staff on the ground in China. And fourth we're in

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Speaker 1: the process now of looking at building a UFC Performance

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Speaker 1: Institute very much like the one we have in Las Vegas,

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Speaker 1: somewhere in China. We're talking with the UFC CEO, Lawrence Epstein.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the talent, the new names coming up.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you bring us up today on that

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Speaker 1: especially for an old man like me. You know, one

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Speaker 1: of the great things about UFC is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the star has sort of come out of nowhere. You

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Speaker 1: think about a guy like Connor McGregor, who has turned

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Speaker 1: into the biggest star probably we've ever had, you know,

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Speaker 1: three or four years ago, the guy really wasn't that

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Speaker 1: well known. We've just got a lot of stars that

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Speaker 1: are are really you know, sort of right on that edge,

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Speaker 1: that are about to break through. In addition to of

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Speaker 1: course the the Connors and the and the others that

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Speaker 1: are that have already hit the mainstream. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: part of it is due to sort of the Connor controversy.

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Speaker 1: But Kabib, who fought in in Brooklyn, uh recently, is

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Speaker 1: definitely a star that's that's on the rise. He's got

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Speaker 1: a strong following both in Europe and in the United States.

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Speaker 1: So he's somebody we're we're definitely spending a lot of

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Speaker 1: time promoting. But he said, we've got you know, about

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Speaker 1: a dozen athletes right now that we can sort of

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Speaker 1: measure whether social media following, whether it's media interest, or

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Speaker 1: a variety of other factors that show us they're sort

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Speaker 1: of on that same trajectory. That you know, Rhonda Rousey was,

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Speaker 1: or Connor McGregor was, or John Jones was during UH

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Speaker 1: during their sort of growth, and you know, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's a combination having a great personality and of course

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Speaker 1: performing in the octagon that turns these athletes into superstars.

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Speaker 1: Who do you think is on the Rhonda Rowsey level

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Speaker 1: right now in the women's fights? You know, Chris Cyborg

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Speaker 1: is is an athlete who has just you know, hasn't

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Speaker 1: had a lot of competition because she's just been, you know,

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Speaker 1: walking through everybody she she fights. She had an incredibly

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Speaker 1: exciting fight against Holly Holm, which I think, I think

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Speaker 1: basically dispelled any naysayers that were out there that that

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Speaker 1: she wasn't as good as everyone thought you was. And

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Speaker 1: I think Chris is somebody who's got the country of

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Speaker 1: Brazil behind her, and she's also got a great following

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Speaker 1: from female fans around the world. She's she's definitely about

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Speaker 1: to break out into UH. I think a much bigger,

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Speaker 1: bigger star position. Lawrence, everything you're saying, and I keep

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Speaker 1: hearing the echoes of David Stern, Are you following someone

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Speaker 1: else's model or are you plotting your own model? Um

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Speaker 1: In a completely different way. I'm trying to think about

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Speaker 1: what what is the strategy for international expansion, for development

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Speaker 1: of stars. It's the same thing we hear from from

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Speaker 1: let's say, the NBA and David, but it took decades

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Speaker 1: for them to cultivate that fan base. It just doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen that quickly. There's no doubt. We're looking at what

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Speaker 1: other leagues and other organizations are doing, and the NBA

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Speaker 1: is an incredible model to follow. They've had great success

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Speaker 1: and they've got a sport that you know, people around

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Speaker 1: the world are interested in, though though it's not real

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Speaker 1: we've certainly looked at what WWE has done to to

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Speaker 1: grow their sports entertainment product around the world. They've done

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Speaker 1: a great job in in turning that into something that

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Speaker 1: set people around the world are interested in. So we're

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Speaker 1: definitely charting our own course, but we love stealing good

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Speaker 1: ideas from those that are that are doing good work

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Speaker 1: around the world. We are chatting with the CEO of UFC,

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Speaker 1: Lawrence Epstein. What have you seen from your parent company now?

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Speaker 1: I amg what have you seen? How have they utilized

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Speaker 1: your fighters, how have they integrated UFC into their entire portfolio?

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Speaker 1: Of assets. Well, the ESPN plus deal is I think

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Speaker 1: a testament to the integration of Endeavor and UFC. We

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Speaker 1: don't get this deal done without Ari Emmanuel and Mark Shapiro,

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Speaker 1: who were intimately involved in negotiating of this deals. For

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Speaker 1: those who may not know, Mark used to run editorial

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Speaker 1: at ESPN years ago. He was I mean to think

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Speaker 1: he created p t I So for those who do

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Speaker 1: not know, Yeah, and those two guys were key to

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Speaker 1: getting this deal done. So I mean to me, that's

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Speaker 1: the biggest example of how this thing has worked. But

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Speaker 1: when you talk about star building, I mean that's where

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Speaker 1: you know, we were even more excited about what the

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Speaker 1: Endeavor uh w e I MG organization brings to the table.

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Speaker 1: And now combining that with you know what we got

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Speaker 1: with ESPN plus, I feel like we've got a pretty

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Speaker 1: amazing machine to not only build stars, but building faster.

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Speaker 1: What's what's the process? Can you quickly walk me through

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Speaker 1: the process. Let's say this young upstart fighter named Michael Barr,

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Speaker 1: who let's say stands about five ten probably Michael, I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna embarrass you to something. Um, let's say he

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Speaker 1: walked into the octagon and you said mottled into the

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Speaker 1: Limpton and we gotta make a star out of this guy.

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Speaker 1: What's the car wash process for taking a talented fighter

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Speaker 1: and saying we're going to make you a star. Listen

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Speaker 1: to this, we know how to do it. What's the process? Well,

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Speaker 1: you start with what you what you said, there is

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Speaker 1: bringing talent in you. You gotta you gotta be able

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Speaker 1: to to fight. You got to be able to perform

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Speaker 1: and uh and I think that's the key, uh to

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Speaker 1: get the ball rolling. Once. Once we once our matchmakers

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Speaker 1: and our talent to belt developers find that that talent,

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Speaker 1: we then do a bunch of different stuff. One of

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Speaker 1: the first things we do as we sit down with

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Speaker 1: the athlete and work with them on on building a brand,

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Speaker 1: building an image on social media, helping them create quality

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Speaker 1: content on social media. We also get him into our

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Speaker 1: UFC Performance Institute, help him with strength and conditioning, nutrition, uh,

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Speaker 1: if he has if he or she has any injuries

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Speaker 1: or things that need to get taken care of, were there.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, we start putting the athlete into

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Speaker 1: the UFC ecosystem where they're involved in promotion and marketing

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00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 1: and ultimately individual events and uh. You know, as I

429
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: said previously, it's this sort of combination of having this

430
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: this personality that people are interested in, and then of

431
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,880
Speaker 1: course performing in the octagon. And I think the best

432
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: example of that is, of course, you know Connor McGregor,

433
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: where the guy you know is an incredibly interesting personality.

434
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 1: If you follow him on social media, he continues to

435
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: engage you with his lifestyle, with his his comments on

436
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 1: a variety of issues, and then when he gets into

437
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: the octagon, he performs. And I think that that combination

438
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: is ultimately what we're trying to get to build new stars.

439
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: Only webin I having the octagon, two glasses and a

440
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: bottle of Jack Daniels and will work it out. We're

441
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 1: talking to UFC CEO Lawrence Epstein, and I know this

442
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 1: has been a subject that is has been talked about

443
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: a while, but Fantasy sports and UFC have been married

444
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: for quite a while. Can you talk about that. You know,

445
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 1: we had a relationship with with DraftKings from from the

446
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: time they sort of we're getting you know, getting going,

447
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: and uh, we we love fantasy sports because it creates

448
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,719
Speaker 1: it creates increased engagement for our product and frankly all

449
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: sports products. Um when we were really deeply engaged with

450
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 1: with DraftKings. We we absolutely saw an uptick in people

451
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: viewing our early fights because the way the fantasy product

452
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 1: worked as you had to sort of pick a winner

453
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: in each one of the of the twelve outs of

454
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: the night, so that means you had to watch the

455
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: first fight of the nights were like watching the Cleveland Browns,

456
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: and and we uh, week sixteen or week seventeen, Oh

457
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: shot at the Cleveland brown But we got a running

458
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: back on the Browns. You're still watching. That's true, that's true.

459
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: We get it. We get it. So so we loved

460
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: it because it absolutely creates fan engagement and it gets

461
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: people involved early, which is great. You know from from

462
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 1: from a star building process too, because the more you

463
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: can expose an athlete to two consumers, the better chance

464
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: you've got to sort of get them to that star level.

465
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: We are chatting with UFC CEO Lawrence Epstein, and Lawrence

466
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: in your background, you worked a lot with Bob aram

467
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: when he's building top rank. Give me your best Bob

468
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: Arum story and lesson learned. You know, first of all,

469
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: Bob is an incredibly smart guy. Uh. This is a

470
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: guy who you know worked in the Kennedy Administration, Justice Department,

471
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: Harvard Law School graduate, just an incredibly, incredibly smart guy.

472
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: I think the best you know, the only stories I

473
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: can tell you that wouldn't violate my attorney client privilege

474
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 1: would be that in general, just to day that Bob

475
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: is a can do guy. I mean, he's a guy

476
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: who figures out a way to get deals done. The

477
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: deal that everyone said couldn't be done, it's not possible.

478
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: We can't sign that guy. Bob is is a can

479
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: do guy, and he doesn't take no for an answer,

480
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: and he gets things done. Speaking of folks who have

481
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: figured out a way to get it done, and you've

482
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: made reference to them earlier, how about those Vegas Golden

483
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 1: Knights still alive. But what Michael and I are impressed

484
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: with him we had some of the executives on the

485
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: show previously, is they have found a way, seemingly to

486
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: create such a compelling in arena product that there's no

487
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: longer a choice of go and watch it live or

488
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: stay at home. That competition that's building in other sports

489
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: because you want to be there live. It's a great spectacle.

490
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: You sort of do that as well. But what kind

491
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: of job have they done in that market. Well. By

492
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: the way, I loved your interview with Carrie Boogle. I've

493
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: got to know him pretty well during this this first

494
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: season that he's been uh you know, working with the

495
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: Golden Knights. Carry from the very beginning was incredibly smart

496
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: in the whole ganization was and thinking about how do

497
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: we take a hockey product and integrated into this entertainment

498
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: landscape in Las Vegas. So it was never just purely

499
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: about sport. It was about how do we get a

500
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: tourist to come to Las Vegas, go see Celine Dion

501
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: on Friday night, go to a nightclub on Saturday night,

502
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: and then on Sunday afternoon go see an NHL hockey game.

503
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: And in order to do that, you had to have

504
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: an entertainment component to what they were doing to make

505
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: the experience fun different frankly, um, you know, exciting, And

506
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: whether it's integration of Blue Man group, whether it's uh,

507
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: you know, uh, the way they've they've used cirqu to sole,

508
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: whether it's the way they get the crowd excited, uh,

509
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: you know throughout the games. I mean, they've just done

510
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: an incredible job and and and we sort of do

511
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: the same thing. I mean, we always see ourselves as

512
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: a balance between yes, we're a sport and yes we're

513
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: providing you know, sport uh product out there, but we

514
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: also want to make sure the fans are entertained throughout

515
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: the entire time there in the arena. And I think

516
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: the Golden Nights have done the same thing, and they've

517
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: obviously been very successful. But at the end of the day,

518
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: everybody loves a winner too, and if they were losing

519
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: a bunch of games, I'm not sure how the how

520
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: the attendance would be uh no matter how good the

521
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: entertainment is. Yeah, but shouldn't everybody get it that it's

522
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: not just about the sport. People want to be entertained.

523
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: I've been to a couple of UFC events. There's some

524
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: downtime between those bouts. You've got to give something people

525
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, it can't just be sitting around

526
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: waiting for the next bout. Yeah, that's that's certainly, you

527
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: know our our mentality. I mean, you know all of

528
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: us that UFC are big boxing guys, and we looked

529
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: at a lot of the production elements of boxing and

530
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: we said, hey, how can we do better. There's definitely

531
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: a lot of downtime in boxing and and there the

532
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: music wasn't loud and the video assets weren't present, um,

533
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: and so we decided to do things a little bit differently,

534
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: and obviously it worked out pretty well for us. I

535
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: had to give it up for the Golden Knights. By

536
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: the way. I've never seen an expansion team in any

537
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: sport like this with this much success. Got to give

538
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: it up, you know, as a native Las Vegan. It's

539
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: it's so exciting because we haven't had a team really

540
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: to root for since the nine nine un LB Running Rebels,

541
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: and so it's been twenty seven or twenty eight years

542
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: where where we're sort of like in contention for a title,

543
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: and uh, the community is just it's just going nuts.

544
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't believe people are talking about hockey

545
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: all day long, wearing Golden Knights merchandise. Um, it's just

546
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Let me impress you ready,

547
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: Greg Anthony Anderson, Hunt, Liddell, Ecoles, Larry Johnson and Stacy

548
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: all have been starting five running Rebels. Thank you. And

549
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: I'm not even from I'm not even a Las Vegan.

550
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: Very impressed. Ultimate Finding Japan CEO Lawrence Epstein I'm impressed.

551
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, sir, appreciate it. Thanks for having

552
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: me takeaway, Scott. The biggest thing that I think I'm

553
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: impressed about with the UFC on how it's growing as

554
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: a sport and continues to grow. Yes, it's a young

555
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: person's sport, but even old guys like me are starting

556
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: to get into it, really old guys like you. Well,

557
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: what I'm impressed with is the number. This is sheer

558
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: dollar is for me that they were looking at. Four

559
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: hundred million. Eskin has Evan referenced earlier and nobody really

560
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: thought they were going to get there. But this is

561
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: showing the power of sport and content. Again. They have

562
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: yet to sell seventy of their content. They've already matched

563
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: what they got last time. Really, commissioners Silver, Goodell, Bettman,

564
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: garber Um Manfred, they're dancing in their desks because the

565
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: numbers just keep going up. And when you talk about

566
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: when these major sports properties are up forbid, now you've

567
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: got the O T T S, you've got the digital,

568
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: you've got the linear, these numbers are going to skyrocket,

569
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: which is why you're seeing valuations on these teams continue

570
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: to go up. You just wonder what is it, if anything,

571
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: that's gonna bring this down to earth. And what's cool

572
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: about the UFC. It doesn't make a difference whether it's

573
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: a male star or a female star. It's equal. There

574
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: is a lot of attention. You know what. We better

575
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: have another McGregor, we better have another run a Rousy.

576
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: We better have something that people want to see. This

577
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 1: is about stars. The sports are about stars. Wen't want

578
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: to feels better to be number one than number five.

579
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: I'll wear a number because of Mike. We have a

580
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: chance to go for three in a row. Kids numbers

581
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: in a good time, and let's first started wearing the number.

582
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: I would just have you in Floomberg Business of Sports,

583
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: the number of the week. Time now for the number

584
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: of the week, and for the first time, it's going

585
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: to be numbers of the week. As we tell our listeners,

586
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 1: sometimes we discussed ahead of time. This was not one

587
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: of those times. I know nothing. Thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen.

588
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: I have no idea. This is something so cool. NASCAR

589
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: is launching Youth e Sports Series on I Racing. The

590
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: Youth Series will open to participants ages thirteen through sixteen worldwide.

591
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: It's the formation of that youth league. This is something.

592
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: Have you seen the pictures of these? No, you come

593
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: to me with this NASCAR number of the week when

594
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: one of our lead segments is NASCAR up for sale.

595
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: Well this, listen, this is smart what they're doing because

596
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: maybe this could attract a buyer. Now you throw in

597
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 1: E sports. That's something NASCAR has never done before. Why

598
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: don't think there's no goodness? There's gotta be a NASCAR

599
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: video game out there from Oh, there's there have been

600
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: many of them, but there's never been an E sports

601
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: series like this. All right, well, it's a sign of

602
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: the times. Everybody's gotta have one of those. I got

603
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: a shot. Maybe I can do it. Yeah, while you'll

604
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: come in with your thumb wrapped up telling me to

605
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: hurt yourself. You're funny. Oh you're funny. Thank you, Mr.

606
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: You at the beach. Anyway, you've been listening to Bloomberg

607
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: Business of Sports. We're here and every week at the

608
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: same time, exploring the world of money in sports. I'm

609
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: Michael barn and I'm Scott Sashnik. Thanks for joining us,

610
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: and please tune in next week when we speak with

611
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: the biggest and brightest in the sports business. Industry. You're

612
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business of Sports from Bloomberg Radio around

613
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: the world and online as an Apple podcast on iTunes,