WEBVTT - Ep. 282: The "A" Word 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.320 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:24.080 can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.080 hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:36.000 every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. All right, everybody, 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.479 this is a special kind of like a literary It's 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.960 like a literary and biology special edition. Joined here by 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.720 Carmen van Bianki, who's here for the third damn time. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:47.960 What episode numbers were you in before? I want to look, 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:54.160 I don't know, fifty four and nine, and then you missed, 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.600 then you missed a hundred in some episodes, and now 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.360 you're back. But we need to check in with you 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.040 because I feel like we um I feel like, you know, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:05.720 we get all these questions all the time. People be like, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:08.480 how can I have a job in the outdoors? Or 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.920 how do you be of this or that? So you're 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.840 our case study. Okay, well it's not been any sort 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.160 of traditional path. But you've arrived now, I think you've arrived. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.080 Now I don't know if I've arrived. I don't know 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.880 if I've arrived, but you trap animals for living man. Okay, 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.640 I'll give you that. Yeah, I have a ton of fun. 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:34.400 Do you have a year round position? No, really, we'll 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.480 get to that. But you're still alive. You're obviously feeding 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.440 yourself and you're clothed and whatnot. Yeah, markers of success. Yeah, 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:47.520 we make it work. Um, but it's a hodgepodge. Although 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:52.480 I am starting a new chapter and hopefully this is 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:57.320 gonna be a full time the rest of my time. Deal. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.600 Have you have you if? If you might, you might 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:02.200 have to lie, bec I want just to look positive 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:07.320 no matter what. But has have any opportunities, has this 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.680 has coming on the show to explain your pro professional 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:15.680 path opened any doors? Don't lie? I gotta be honest. No, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.640 damn it really because I felt like I really like 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.560 laid it on thick and that was, you know, so 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:26.640 sweet of you. But um, I mean I've got I 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.519 more get my jobs, you know, just based on my 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.400 my skills, and no one cares about that kind of stuff. 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.959 Our listenership back probably the last time Karmen was just 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:43.040 trying to get those jobs. Yeah, so now you know 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.200 we have twice listenership. It probably made it worse for 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.240 Carmen because a bunch of dudes are like, Dude, I'm 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.840 gonna try to get that job. I'm gonna go into that. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.760 I'm gonna go into that line of work. That's good. 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.080 So everything it's like a meritocracy. It's a meritocracy in 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:01.560 your field things. Yeah. And and I've had I've been 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:06.160 really fortunate to have some regular, uh field jobs for 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.960 the last years. I mean, I think since we did 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.239 the last podcast, I've been working on the same project. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.640 And so that's been really nice, just not having to 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:15.600 worry every season about what the next thing is going 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:19.000 to be and where I'm gonna live. Um. So, so 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.560 that was really nice. And now that project is just 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:27.040 about completely wound up. And um, three of my colleagues 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.960 and friends from that that project, well two of them, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:35.920 there's three of us, are starting a nonprofit doing independent 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:42.560 wildlife research. That's the next chapter. That's good. That's the 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.120 word right out of my mouth. Also joined by what 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:51.360 cows here? Hello, fresh off a babysitting my dog? Um, 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.360 you honest is here fresh off big huge run this morning? 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.480 Mm hmm. I was just getting up. I got a 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.200 picture from a friend of mine who did he did 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.080 you just run into him up on top of that mountain. 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.720 We ran up there together, ran up there together. We 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.600 hiked fast up there together. You guys speed hiked. That's good. 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:15.880 We kind of ran down. Phil here, say something for yourself. Phil, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.960 you don't sound very thrilled in the room. Get pills here, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.640 I guess for some reason. And then, uh, very special guests. 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:29.000 Who Kathy Raven whose brand new book is out yesterday. Yes, 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.159 I heard you guys sold so the books called Fox 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.000 and I and my exposure to it is your publisher, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.400 Cindy Spiegel took um, you know, through me a real she. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.440 I don't think she would describe it this way, but 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.000 through me a real lifeline. Many years ago I bought 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.320 my second book I published with her imprint at Random 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.480 House for a long time. They've gone on to now 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.600 start their own publishing venture. You're I think their first book, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.680 their first so Spiegel and Grow. It's with spiegl and Growl. 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.840 Speagle and Grow used to be an imprint at Random House, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.880 but now it's a very exciting new venture. Um, you 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.360 were their first book. I heard you guys have Uh, 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:17.279 you've sold the book to eleven different countries. I haven't 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.400 kept track because that's not my thing, but it's been 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:26.039 a lot of countries. Russia picked it up, and Korea 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.240 and Italy and Germany and waiting for Japan. So does 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.040 this if you can put in a plug A lot 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.560 of good populations in countries, so you hear that, you 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:41.720 people in Japan, so it'll be widely translated. Yes, even 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.919 I'm really happy that even the English folks decided to 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.200 translate it. And I don't know if the Australians and 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.200 New Zealands have, but I think that's really helpful because 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.560 when I watch English, I guess Cindy told you. I 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:57.920 don't have a TV or stream or anything like that, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.520 but I buy DVDs and mostly the DVDs I buy 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.200 for entertainment are English ones, and I have to watch 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.359 them with the you know, the close captioning because I 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.839 don't understand what they're saying. So I think English people 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.240 probably don't understand all of my vocabulary and such. So 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.440 they hired a professional to translate it from American to English, 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.880 and I'm really happy about that. Do you mean like 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:30.680 the print version. Yeah, yeah, that's a good question about 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.760 the audio. Yeah, the spelling is different, and I think 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.760 some of the slang. I might have used the word 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.960 mother country at one point, and I remember they wrote 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.640 and said, so when you say the mother I was 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.680 being facetious. When you said the mother country, were you 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.440 talking about us? I said yeah, And there was something 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:55.479 else that. Yes, some minor adjustments. So the folks over there, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.520 I hope they didn't cut out all my stuff about 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.400 fox hunting, but I talked about England and the fox 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:05.400 Hunters and Downton Abbey and all that. Yeah, they're trying 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.920 to wash their hands a little fox The whole Fox 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.480 Hunt made that look a little nicer. Yeah, that's good. 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.800 It has been translated to a lot of different languages 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.840 and different accents. That's great. So we're gonna talk about 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:20.960 that book in a little bit too, But first we 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:22.520 gotta talk about then our thing. Now. Listen, I don't 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.920 want you to take this the wrong way. I think 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.040 everyone should go buy your book. But we're gonna promote 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.400 like we have to promote a thing of ours. So 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.000 we talked about a week ago. I don't know when 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.480 the hell, I don't know a while ago. No, it's 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:44.320 out right now. The closest listen. Yeah, if you listen 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.160 to this show on a regular basis. You heard us, 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:54.440 uh um getting all excited and explaining our audio book. Yeah. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.760 I heard somebody say that an audio original like an 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.520 immersive audio experience. It's not available in print. You have 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.760 to listen to it six hours long. Um, but I 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:06.840 just want to give everybody a taste of it. So 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:13.640 this is like, this is the story. I heard this story? Um, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.000 I heard a version of this story, I think from Callahan. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.000 Did you originally tell me the story? YEA, some details wrong, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.680 cal That's because I never heard the story. You heard 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.080 a story about Brody was like, hey, do you hear 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:30.080 about And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's this guy. It's like, well, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.240 do you have his phone number? I was like, oh no, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:36.120 but he used to work Pheasants forever and I know 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.480 a bunch of folks in that organization. So I had 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:43.920 one email tracked down his cell phone number, and and 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.480 and and I still haven't heard the story. Yeah, so 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:51.000 you still haven't heard the damn story. It's a guy 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.600 named Sam Lowery. He's a game board in Arizona. Before 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:54.760 we we jump into this, you want to do a 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.200 quick summary of what this is, what the whole project is. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.679 In case they missed the last and you brought it up. 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:02.800 Are you gonna edit that out or leave that in film? 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.480 I'm gonna leave it in your little comment there. Yeah, 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:10.000 that's called direct fils big time producer. H that's going 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:14.160 on with her. I would never take that away because 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.360 because Karin's out of town. Now, Phil's gonna act like 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.400 big time Mr Director. All right, Phil, Phil's take him 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.360 jobs away from the folks who answer listener emails. You 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.040 know what my dad has a story about He was 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:26.520 when he was a little kid, he had a job 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.640 as a soda jerk, and when he came back from 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.040 the war, he beat the guy up who had that job. Wow, 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.079 that's unnecessary. Found out that the guy had the job, 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:37.360 the guy didn't want to give it back. My dad 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.679 beat him up. Do you what's your opinion on that? 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.600 Do you think your dad had the right to take 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.840 his job back. He felt that you wouldn't that you 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.280 would if a veteran was returning got it would very 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.679 quickly step aside and not make a play to keep 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:54.600 the job. What if you were in that new soda 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.160 jerk's position and some guy came in and said, Hey, 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.000 I want my job back. I just said, here's the 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:04.840 apron that guy wants of vanilla soda. Point Man Krim 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.080 might come back and beat your ass, Phil, But I'll 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.680 take that little directing. I'll take that little directing comment 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:15.920 and I will Um. It's called meat Eaters, camp fire stories, 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.520 close calls, and it is about. It's a it's a long, 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.640 it's a it's a collection of a wide variety of 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:29.319 different storytellers from mountaineers, game wardens, hunters, spear fisherman. I 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.959 don't know who else is in there. My daughter has 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.440 a cameo. Yeah, that's right, she did a great job. 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.400 Um about close calls and near death experiences and close 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.679 calls in the wild, and kind of the way like 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.880 the sort of the physiology that goes into it, the 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.120 psychology that goes into close calls, the way close calls 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.320 tend to live with you and haunt you. Um. And 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.040 one of them, just to give you a taste, what 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.680 this is all about, is the story of a game 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.560 board named Sam Laurie who is operating in Arizona. And 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.840 we described us before as he has a run in 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:10.600 with the sociopathic, suzy wielding elk poacher. So take a listen, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:25.880 and such thing the mud puddle. Over the years, I've 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.960 had the occasion to speak with several game wardens on 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.920 the subject of poaching. Among the most interesting of these 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.320 conversations was my talk with a warden who studied what 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:41.520 he called super poachers. Super poachers, he found, almost always 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:46.880 exhibit sociopathic tendencies. They commit their crimes very quietly. They 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.679 don't show off photos or brag about the animals they 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.000 poached on social media, and they don't tend to poach 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.120 for material game. The real thrill for them is killing 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:02.600 animals illegally and doing so without getting caught. The hunt 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.760 for one such serial poacher is the focus of this 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:10.640 next story from Sam Lowry, a retired game warden. Sam 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:12.840 told us that most of the time he was dealing 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.559 with normal people who might have made a minor honest mistake, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.440 along with the occasional poacher who was deliberately flouting the 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.600 rules for profit. In this case, though, he was playing 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:32.560 cat and mouse with a dangerous sociopath. My name is 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.960 Sam Lowry. I've held different positions with the federal and 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.920 state wildlife agencies, spanning about a forty year career in wildlife. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:47.040 Back in about three or so, I was a wildlife 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.920 manager for what they called Unit one and three B 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:55.640 in northern Arizona. Closest larger town would be Sholow, Arizona. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:01.240 Most people think Arizona is filled with sorrow cacti and desert, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.840 and yet in reality there's there's a beautiful high country 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.360 element of mixed conifer and aspens. And that was the 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:13.280 district that I was responsible for that held a very 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.360 very healthy elk population. In fact, you know, probably world 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:22.960 renowned UH units for pursuing elk in that particular region 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:28.880 of the White Mountains. So usually by springtime of every year, 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.680 we were looking forward to Turkey season with spring Gobbler's 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.560 goblin everywhere, and all the big game seasons were over 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.839 in terms of elk and deer and big horn sheep 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.040 and what have you, and things for the most part 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:49.240 started to slow down. Um with the exception of one 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.240 evening I got a call and this would have been 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.679 about in March, that one of our local outfitters who 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.360 lives quite a ways out into the Boonies heard some 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:04.000 shots and U reported it to Gave and Fish. We 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.720 had a twenty four hour hotline where they could call, 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.400 and of course that information came back to me that 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:14.200 these shots were fired at night. UM sounded like small 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.960 caliber and fully automatic, which is very unusual for the 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.800 area we were in. I knew that the caller, so 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.320 I contacted him the next day and determined the location 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.080 he was even referring to, and I went out there 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:35.840 and sure enough I found two elk land down. They 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:41.720 were both probably within eight hours, had been shot. As normally, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.960 you take your metal detector and look the carcasses over. 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.840 You look for any places where the vehicle, the suspect 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.840 vehicle would have pulled off the road. You want to 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.880 look for any shell casings in the road. You want 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.160 to look for anything that give you any idea of 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.360 of evidence to to link whoever shot these elk to 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:08.760 a person. Unfortunately, there was nothing. Probably about two weeks 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:14.560 later where we received another call shots being fired at 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.920 night and general location but no specifics. I responded to 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.280 that one the next day as well and found two 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:29.160 cow elk. One was alive was still kicking. When a 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.440 game warden or a wildlife officer comes in contact with 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:38.800 an animal that's been poached, what we rely on is evidence. 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.040 You know a lot of times these violators are out 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.440 there at night party and two and they'll throw beer 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.400 cans out, or pop cans or you know, you look 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.880 for anything that might be able to lead you to 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.960 an individual down the road, and there was never anything 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.880 on the on this particular guy's m O. The evidence 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:02.240 was always very lacking with this particular case. I was 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.280 getting pretty bothered because if you think you found this 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.400 would have been the fifth elk um. They looked like 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.560 they were being shot with twenty two caliber as the 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.120 projectiles that I was able to carve out of the elk, 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:19.360 how many did we not find? So my my aggravation 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.880 started to grow. I wanted to catch this guy, so 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:28.120 I actually made a decision to call a reporter while 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.200 I was going to begin performing the knee crops he's 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:35.600 on his elk. Told him we were again out looking 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.680 at these elk poachings and hoping that an article in 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.440 the paper would stimulate some folks to maybe step forward 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.560 and put an end to who's doing this. The one 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.640 that was still alive I dispatched, which is, you know, 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.960 one of the duties officers have to do once a while, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.360 never pleasant, but you put the animal out of its misery. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.600 And the reporter showed up and walked out to the field. 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.160 I remember he looked down at me. He looked like 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.119 he was going to kind of maybe get sick. And 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.000 not that we're hardened that much, but to him, I 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.400 imagine it was a It was a pretty spectacular nasty scene. 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.400 The one that was alive had been kicking all night 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.359 trying to get itself up, so it had had made 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.040 this kind of circle depression of of soil around it. 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.280 And so he's asking me, as I'm carving into these 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.399 things about what I'm looking for, And sure enough I 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.120 was able to locate a couple again, twenty two caliber 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:37.520 slugs that were mostly fragments. At that point, one might wonder, 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:39.879 you know, how how did kill an elk? Well, when 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:41.919 you hit him with two or three of them, and 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.040 a couple of them probably in the spinal cord, it 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:50.639 can drop them. So it it certainly does. I reached 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.600 down into the the more of the gestive area of 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:59.600 the cavity, and this again was in March and not 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.520 the do you sing in the world. I reached in 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.120 and grabbed about a jack rabbit sized fetus from one 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.959 of the cow elk, and I lighted up on the 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.480 rib cage and looked him in the eye and said, 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.520 you know, this isn't three elk, this is six elk. 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.280 And that's what really kind of turned him white. And 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:19.640 by the end of the knee cropsy, I had three, 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.000 uh you know, two ft long fetuses laying on the 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.199 rib cage of this one elk, and I thought, you know, 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.920 if that doesn't stimulate someone to come forward and help 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.320 me nab the guy doing this or guys doing this, 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.360 I don't know what can. And the article did come out, 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.600 and all I got was feedback from the public that 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.040 will do everything we can to help you catch this guy. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:46.320 But no information ever led to that from that knee cropsy. 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.040 You know, I can't not tell a little piece of 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:55.680 a story that comes to mind about this individual poaching 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.600 all these elk and and the first thing you want 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.680 to do is a is a war and has catched 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:06.760 the guy or guys. And an old mentor of mine, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.040 a warden, had been around for many, many years. We 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.119 called him the herd bull, and we were referred to 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:20.160 as satellite bulls. And he used to always tell us 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.240 satellite bulls to walk to the dance and you'll finally 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.240 get to dance. Don't run to the dance. And so 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.040 that message to me always said to me to just 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.120 slow down and eventually the person is going to make 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:39.199 a mistake. And uh, I kept going back to my 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:44.080 old mentor, thinking, someday, somewhere this guy is going to 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.119 mess up and I'm going to catch him. So after 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:53.000 the newspaper article came out, nothing ever turned up. Things 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.840 were cold, and uh. In fact, there is a point 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.960 at which I kind of thought maybe the person moved away, 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.520 which could be a good thing, at least some more elk, 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:06.440 we're going to get tipped over. My wife and I 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.080 lived in a little town called Vernon, and it was 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.160 about twenty miles from a little larger town called Sholo, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.800 and every once in a while, this was prior to 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.760 us having any any children, we'd head on into the 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:24.160 big town for Saturday night. On one particular Saturday night, 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.359 we took off to Bill's Bar, famous little tavern and 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.280 in Sholo, whereas, in fact, I had another story where 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.520 some old codgers back in the sixties backed up to 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.960 the back door of Bill's Bar and let a mountain 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:44.480 lion loose into a crowd of patrons. And uh, and 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.320 you didn't go in there very often without probably seeing 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.720 some kind of fisticuffs and kirk. So you had to 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.600 be a big, big, broad shouldered burley book aoroo work 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.920 in a wide open wind with wilderness to get in there. 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.560 So my wife I did and we we uh went 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.040 had dinner and went dancing, and luckily that night there 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.600 weren't too many cold beers going down the throat, but 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.160 enough to have a fun night. And we were heading 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:16.760 home after closing about one o'clock in the morning, about 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.359 a twenty mile drive to our little cabin, and uh 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.600 about five miles from home, I could look up into 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.600 the vicinity of where all the out poachings were and 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:33.000 my gosh, there was a spotlight being thrown around. Spotlights 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:37.720 are just very very distincting and being able to say 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:43.000 that's not your headlights. You headlights when vehicles drive, don't 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.879 sweep across the hillside as if they're searching for something. 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.119 It's kind of like a searchlight, if you will. And 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.119 I could see that spotlight being kind of covering different 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.920 hillsides and no doubt in my mind there was some 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:01.479 activity going on. So I know my my little bride 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.160 wasn't happy, but I decided to to hurry on home 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.720 and put the uniform on and go out and get 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.919 this guy. Um, I certainly wasn't in any condition that 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.280 would prevent me from from doing that. So I I 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.760 made the decision, I'm gonna go suit up and and 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.320 catch this guy. Too good of an opportunity. Jumped in 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.480 my game and fish truck and notified the dispatch that 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:30.159 I'd be out attempting to make contact with this potential 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:35.480 health poacher or spotlighter, and took off. And I had 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.080 about a five mile drive to get to where I 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.080 could see the spotlight working. And in those days, we 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.399 had what you call a blackout light that would go 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.720 to the front bumper your game and fish truck, and 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.560 it would allow you to slowly proceed down a dirt 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:55.240 road without any other lights on. It was a military 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.920 device that we got for all the officers in the state. 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:02.960 So I proceeded kind of in the direction of this spotlighter, 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:06.879 occasionally stopping and listening, and I, you know, it was 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.439 difficult to tell. Sometimes I thought I heard rapid fire 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.879 kind of automatic weapon, if you will, And sometimes it 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.199 was more of a crack cracking noise, like more of 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:22.840 a report of a rifle but nonetheless, I kept entering 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.400 my way to where I thought this guy was working, 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.879 which is a forest service road home to running in 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.479 and out of that vicinity that time of year. So 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:35.960 I positioned my game and fish struck at the end 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:38.960 of that and thought, I'm gonna get him. He's gonna 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.160 come out. And now you start to feel the old 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:47.280 adrenaline coming. You're going into full blown enforcement mode and 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:49.480 you're pretty sure you're gonna make a stop on what 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:52.920 was likely to be the worst poacher I'd ever encountered. 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:56.399 And then all of a sudden, the lights changed and 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.800 they went they went a different way. They were going 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:02.280 back the same way, but they then turned west, which 0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:05.520 you know, when you're when you're responsible for these districts, 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:07.760 you know that country like the back of your hand. 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.080 And and I knew that he turned on what I 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:15.439 assumed was this little dead end two track road, and 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.600 I need to reposition myself to that road, and now 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:24.159 I'll haven't blocked in. So I did, and when I 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:27.359 got to that road, there was a a little dip 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.320 onto this other two track road. There was a dip 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:33.960 with a mud puddle, and it was probably twelve ft across, 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:39.639 you know, ten ft wide, maybe eight inches deep, and 0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:42.160 if a vehicle goes through that mud puddle, you can 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:45.560 tell there's gonna be bubbles in it or wash out 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.679 on the other side where water dripped down from the frame. 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:52.159 And so I accided my game and fish truck, and 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:56.000 I grabbed a flashlight and I just slowly approached that 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.359 mud puddle and I got down on my knees and 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:03.280 I kind of muffled the light. I could see no bubbles, 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.359 and then I I kind of walked over to the 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.240 other side and looked on the where the vehicle would 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:14.040 have driven through, and there's no tracks, there's no sign 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.840 of any washout. I just was bewildered. I thought this 0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:22.280 guy didn't go down this road. So I was discouraged. 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:24.160 And you know, this has probably been an hour now 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.800 that I've been pursuing this guy, thinking I'm gonna get him, 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:28.960 and he gave me the slip. So I got my 0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:31.840 game fish truck and backed out and went back on 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:34.520 the other side of the two road all the way 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:38.000 out towards Vernon. Uh. I was done for the night. 0:25:38.040 --> 0:25:40.919 And the only thing I can remember is when I 0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:44.359 got back to the cabin that night, my wife was 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:48.240 let's just stay happy to see me there, not necessarily 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.560 excited about the fact, and running out to catch a 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:55.840 bad guy at two in the morning. So after that happened, 0:25:55.840 --> 0:25:58.760 I was again discouraged. I thought, when when am I 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:01.280 going to get another break? I just don't know. But 0:26:01.440 --> 0:26:03.879 that that night I thought I had him, but he 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:09.040 slipped away. So following that that evening where I felt 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:15.440 I was the closest at catching this guy, things continued on. 0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:19.359 We we ended up getting a couple more calls on 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:24.119 elk that were shot UM No again, no no leads. 0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:28.040 And I do recall the vicinity though it was a 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:33.160 very localized area, you know, all right around that road 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:37.560 that I found the spotlighter on um and those elk 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:40.959 would soon be moving out of their winter range up 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.080 into the north range, up into their their summer country, 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:48.040 so we kind of felt things would be be slowing down. 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:52.240 But after an elk or two more, it just stopped. 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:55.240 And while I thought maybe it had to do with 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:59.240 that migration to higher country, there was still enough elk 0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:02.919 in that lower range to warrant some shooting at the 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.600 guy was still around, but I felt like it it 0:27:05.760 --> 0:27:09.840 just stopped and pretty much kind of stamped at case 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:14.119 case unsolved. We couldn't put this one behind us, and 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:15.960 there was a lot of a lot of people trying 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.800 to to make this case work. Never did, and I 0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:23.720 just felt it was it was. It was on onward 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:26.640 to the next one then that that's gonna be one 0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:32.320 for the books and other blue. One day, our investigator 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:36.480 called me and said, hey, we got a weird call 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:41.119 today from a narcotics agent up in Holbrook, which is 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:45.400 a town about forty miles north of Vermin, and he said, 0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:49.840 we have a guy in custody that is being held 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:57.320 on some pretty serious drug trafficking charges and attempted homicide charges, 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:01.080 most likely going to be moved to Albuquerque, but he's 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:05.800 in our holding facility and during interviews he mentioned something 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:09.480 about shooting a bunch of elk in the Vernon area, 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:15.239 and so this UH narcotics agent asked our investigator if 0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:19.399 we had any interest in interviewing him, and of course 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:23.639 I jumped at the opportunity. I thought to myself, if 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.080 this is if this is the guy, I can finally 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:28.520 maybe get some closure to this. And it's not going 0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:32.320 to be a citation for killing fifteen elk this season. 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.359 It's this guy is going away, probably too much, bigger house. 0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:37.639 So yeah, I want to go. I want to go 0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:40.080 visit and I want to go talk to him. And 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:43.560 an Arconics agent relayed to our investigator that he's a 0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:47.760 pretty strange duck and you might want to bring him 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:52.040 a Baby Ruth candy bar because he likes candy bars. 0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:55.120 That if you bring him that, he might might be 0:28:55.160 --> 0:28:59.160 willing to talk to you. So we did. I've stopped 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:02.040 the store, got a Baby Ruth candy bar and or 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:05.880 civilian clothes, so I didn't intimidate him at all with 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:10.400 the uniform and drove to Hoolebrook and checked in with 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:13.600 the officers there and let him know what I was 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:16.600 there for to to interview the suspect. His name was 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:20.720 Okay and uh. Other than that, I didn't have any 0:29:20.760 --> 0:29:23.000 more details other than the fact that he was being 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:27.600 held on pretty serious charges. He was running a little 0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:33.280 met lab and some some involvement in a murder case 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:37.640 in Alburquerque, something to do with a past girlfriend or 0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.760 or something of that nature. But he was being held 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:46.360 on on both narcotics and homicide charges. So they led 0:29:46.400 --> 0:29:48.880 me down this you know, kind of sterile hallway and 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:53.520 got me into an interrogation room where I sat, and 0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:57.680 then five minutes or so past and the door opens up, 0:29:57.680 --> 0:30:02.200 and here's this straggly looking character in a orange jump suit. 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:05.960 He had what we call a transport belt around his 0:30:06.040 --> 0:30:10.160 waist with his handcuffs on attached to that transport belt, 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:13.640 so you can't swing your arms at all. He's he's 0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.800 he's confined, kind of looked at me like, you know, 0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:22.960 absolute careless. He didn't have any regard for you know, 0:30:23.000 --> 0:30:26.400 what I was there for, obviously, But the officer that 0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:28.640 led him into the room explained that, you know, I 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:30.440 was with game and Fish and I just wanted to 0:30:30.440 --> 0:30:33.680 talk to him about some of the unsolved elk poachings 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:37.960 we had in the White Mountains. And he reluctantly sat down, 0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:40.400 and he kind of just stared at me like he 0:30:40.600 --> 0:30:44.040 was looking through the back of my skull, and he 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:46.920 had these kind of dark, steely looking eyes. He just 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:50.400 you know, which was kind of rang the old socio 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.080 path in my mind that this guy doesn't really care 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:55.480 much about me or what he's about to tell me. 0:30:56.840 --> 0:30:59.440 So I introduced myself. Okay, I'm Sam Lowry. I'm with 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:02.040 there as a and Fish and I. I know you're 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:04.720 in here for things more serious than I want to 0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:07.680 talk to you about, but I really wanted to visit 0:31:07.720 --> 0:31:09.640 with you a little bit about something you told the 0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:15.040 officers about your help poaching in Vernon. And he kind 0:31:15.080 --> 0:31:17.880 of let out a little sigh and sat back in 0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:21.760 his chair, almost almost relax a little more. He looked 0:31:21.840 --> 0:31:26.720 right at me, just again he's cold, shark like eyes 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.840 and yeah, that was me that So what do you 0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:32.280 mean it was you? I mean what I was the 0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:35.400 one I have shot probably thirty elk up there, and 0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:39.880 you guys, you guys can never catch me. And I 0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:42.560 kind of leaned in and I wanted to find out 0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:46.720 why and so what was the cause? And and he 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.480 stopped me and looked and said, I'll tell you one thing, though. 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:55.600 You got a warden out there with angel wings. And 0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:58.920 I kind of paused myself, and I thought, what do 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:00.920 you mean they're okay? What what do you mean by that? 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:04.440 And he said, well, one night, he said one of 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:07.840 your guys was was after me. He darned here had me. 0:32:07.880 --> 0:32:10.120 And he said they played cat and mouse for a 0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:13.600 little while. And he came down this two track road 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:17.160 where there was a big mud puddle, and he said, 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:20.920 I was parked probably fifty yards from that, behind a 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:25.000 big juniper tree. That dumb bastard got out of his 0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:27.680 truck and walked up to the mud puddle with his 0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:31.640 flashlight like he was some kind of hero. And Uh, 0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:34.040 I had made the decision, if he comes through that 0:32:34.160 --> 0:32:39.000 mud puddle, I'm gonna spray him. Yeah, I had to pause. 0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:43.240 I mean he probably saw my face. I said, spray him? 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:45.560 What you know? What? What? What do you mean? He said, 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:47.440 I have a newsy That's what I was shooting those 0:32:47.440 --> 0:32:51.080 elk with. And whether he came across on foot or 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:53.520 in vehicle, that was going to be his last night. 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:56.680 But strangely enough, that guy got in his truck and 0:32:56.720 --> 0:33:00.120 turned away. Maybe you knew I was down there, and 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:03.360 I have chills on my neck telling you guys that story. 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:06.480 I can remember just walking out of that room that 0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:12.200 day thinking, holy mackerel, that was me. Uh, whatever reasons, 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:14.960 And I can't explain it to you why it didn't 0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:18.000 look like he had driven through that mud puddle, but 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:21.000 he had, and he was fifty ft or fifty yards 0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:25.600 from me, ready to take me out. So we had 0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:27.840 talked a little more, you know, I was. I was. 0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:31.280 I was pretty much shot, no pun intended. I thought, 0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:33.480 you know what, I just want to go home and 0:33:33.560 --> 0:33:36.600 hug my wife. But I tried to end the interview. 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.840 There was no doubt in my mind it was him. 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:42.200 He was on meth. He told me he was cooking 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.200 meth up in a little cabin not far from where 0:33:45.240 --> 0:33:48.400 he was doing all the shooting. He was by himself, 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.520 and he just liked to kill stuff. As he told me, 0:33:51.600 --> 0:33:56.760 I like to kill ship and no remorse, no, no, nothing. 0:33:56.920 --> 0:34:01.400 And I never did recover the coozy to match those 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:06.040 bullets with, but I'll never forget them, you know. Walking 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:09.080 him back down the hallway, and he kind of looked 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:12.000 over his shoulder, looked back at me one more time, 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:17.520 not knowing that I was at Angel was that game warden? 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:19.520 It had wings at night. I never let him know 0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:22.359 that anyway. But he walked away and that was never 0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:25.840 to be seen again. Old Loki. Oh he ate the 0:34:25.880 --> 0:34:33.480 candy bar too. Okay, there you haveing ladies and gentlemen. 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:37.279 That's just one little sampling, one little sampling off of 0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:39.439 the Broader project. Again, like I said, it's five six 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:45.080 hours long, sixteen stories. There's one of them. They're all good. 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:49.279 So go out and get that's available now. That's for 0:34:49.320 --> 0:34:52.800 your listening. Cathy Ravens Books for your reading. That's for 0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:57.439 your listening. Yeah, well it's available for pre order right now, tomorrow, 0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:02.359 it's available. How it works, Yeah, it's a pre order 0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:07.279 now and I'll just magically show up mm hm as 0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:11.480 a download as a down one. Um, we're gonna continue. 0:35:11.520 --> 0:35:13.600 So when you hear that story and you go listen 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:16.080 to the broader story, let us know about your crazy stories. 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:19.080 Because when you send an email and just send it 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:21.160 in and says like a crazy ass story as a 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.480 subject line, and we might hunt you down because we 0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:27.200 like that kind of story, like you just heard. Yeah, 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:31.879 we liked working on this project. That was fun. Yeahs 0:35:31.920 --> 0:35:35.360 tracking people down was great. It makes you think about 0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:37.319 things all the time, though, because a lot of these 0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:44.000 stories involved like very micro like incidents and like just 0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:47.479 small things that happened that you know, make the whole 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:51.279 day have a much different outcome. And so I know, 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:53.480 when I'm out in the woods and just taking a 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:57.160 step on a rock that's might be over a precipice 0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.239 or something, it makes me think twice. After hearing some 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:03.040 of these stories. Yeah, it was Yan Yanni's in the 0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:06.040 Yanni's in the project. Because the people that listen to 0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:08.920 this show are familiar with may be familiar with a 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:10.960 couple of episodes we had called the Meat Tree Part 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:16.640 one and part two. We revisit that story and some 0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:21.400 aftermath issues from that story. And if that day hadn't happened, 0:36:21.440 --> 0:36:24.439 if that minute, that minute hadn't happened, where we had 0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:27.480 a very close encounter with a with a brown bear 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:29.440 that Yanni smacked in the face with a set of 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:34.480 track and polls um this book, this audio project wouldn't 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:39.480 exist like that set me down the path of like 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:42.919 being haunted by that day, set me down the path 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:45.840 of kind of exploring what close calls due to a 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:48.160 due to you and how they live in your mind. 0:36:49.760 --> 0:36:52.480 What do you think, Phil, that was great? We're good 0:36:52.480 --> 0:36:59.160 to move on? Where Korean standing? I'd say, yes, do people? 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.239 Oh order this audio prize and feels not cut out 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:09.239 for this job after all? To get it, you gotta 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:12.640 go to Audible, You can go to Amazon, or you 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:16.000 can go to our publisher, Penguin Random Houses website to 0:37:16.239 --> 0:37:21.000 pre order or just order whatever Meat Eat camp Fire Stories, 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:25.640 Close Calls comes out July, but secure it now again. 0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:28.040 You can find it on Audible, you can find it 0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:31.319 on Amazon, you can find it at Penguin Random House 0:37:31.360 --> 0:37:36.280 website and get it Meat Eater camp Fire Stories. Close 0:37:36.360 --> 0:37:42.200 Calls fully available July twenty, available for pre order at 0:37:42.200 --> 0:37:47.040 any point. All right, Carmen, Um, do you do you 0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:48.760 have any close calls you need to make us aware 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:51.640 of for our next project. No, I have not had 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:56.040 any what I would consider close calls. But I do 0:37:56.520 --> 0:37:59.279 sometimes think back on ways that I've done things in 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:02.400 the field and and know now that that was pretty 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:06.040 stupid and not not very safety minded. So you mean 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:11.359 in dealing with animals, Yeah, in dealing with animals, but yeah, 0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:13.920 mostly dealing with just getting around on the landscape. Like 0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:19.560 I think about the first job I had UM where 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:24.800 we were using four wheelers a lot. It was in Alberta, Canada, 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:30.520 and um in the Alberta Rockies, so super rugged terrain 0:38:30.960 --> 0:38:33.120 and people just kind of blast all over the place 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:36.200 on a t V s there and so it kind 0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:39.200 of feels like I can go anywhere. But um, I 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:43.600 mean I was, you know, flipping a TVs and we 0:38:43.600 --> 0:38:47.880 were doing some really not smart stuff, just just stretching 0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:50.360 when an ATV should be doing with more people on 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:53.120 it than should be on it. That sort of thing. Um, 0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:57.440 snowmobiling too. I learned a snowmobile in the Northern main 0:38:57.520 --> 0:39:01.080 Woods and winter. So I was working with two guys 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:03.960 who had been doing it their whole lives and basically 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:09.120 learning on the fly, you know, blasting around at sixty 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:13.239 miles an hour and again wrecking and flipping snowmobiles and 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.560 all that. So so so the machinery's more expensive, more 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:23.800 dangerous than the animals, oh, I would say, so yeah. Yeah. 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:27.239 My other, my other not smart traveling thing was m 0:39:28.160 --> 0:39:32.040 hitchhiking between our our field camp and town. I look 0:39:32.080 --> 0:39:34.080 back on that, I was like, I think I was 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:36.840 nineteen or twenty. You're going in town to whoop it 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:41.719 up ORGI groceries. But yeah, yeah, going into town all 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:44.680 your days off and we just hitchhike. And um, I 0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:46.920 remember this one guy pulled over. It was me and 0:39:47.680 --> 0:39:51.600 a girl I was working with, and he just one 0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:55.640 of those instant creepy vibes out kind of h come 0:39:55.680 --> 0:39:58.759 out standing on the side of the road and he's 0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:00.359 trying to not think at all. He is a couple 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:04.640 of biologists going into town against groceries. No older, older fellows. 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:08.200 Here are some people that want to part. I've never 0:40:08.239 --> 0:40:10.560 told my parents this. I don't know if they'll listen, 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:15.120 but yep, stopped, pulled over. I started to get into 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:20.799 the front seat, and there were various things you'd get 0:40:20.840 --> 0:40:26.800 in a truck stop bathroom, like different colored condoms and loops, 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:29.480 just thrown on the floor and in the backseat as 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.799 my friend was getting oh, I hope knew, I don't. 0:40:32.800 --> 0:40:36.280 I don't remember that still in the package. And then 0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:40.520 as she was getting in, she she said, she told 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:43.000 me there's a gun on the floor here, and there's 0:40:43.040 --> 0:40:45.399 a pistol in the in this car, on the floor, 0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:49.480 and just that combined with his vibe ready to go, 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:54.600 ready for ready, yes, ready for any number of directions. Yeah, 0:40:54.719 --> 0:41:00.360 so we um, you know it's Tuesday. Go on anyway 0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:03.000 we did. I refused to get in, and he tried 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:07.600 to convince us, but we waited for the next car. Um. 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:09.759 I want to role play for a minute. Hold on, 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:13.040 now be a good time to uh, let Carmen explain 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:14.919 what she does. I want to role play real quick, 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:18.160 too far? Okay, you want to cleanse the root words 0:41:18.280 --> 0:41:27.479 role play. I'm Carmen and she's the trucker. Yes, okay, ready, 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:31.280 I'm not going to get in. I've changed my mind, 0:41:32.239 --> 0:41:37.359 he says, just get in. Oh okay. So not being 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:39.880 swab No, no, no, no, no, he was. He was 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:43.239 strange and creepy. Okay. Yeah, that's all. That's It's just 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:50.000 very quick roleplay. I appreciate keep it. Thank you. Yeah, 0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:52.239 it was what you I wasn't going to do what 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:57.279 you worried. What's gonna happen? Okay, fill people in now 0:41:57.560 --> 0:42:02.759 moving on. So, uh way a million years ago when 0:42:02.760 --> 0:42:05.239 you came on the show, you were getting engaged. You 0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:09.279 were not getting engage. You were engaging in a long project. 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:12.359 I think way back then. Let's see the second time 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:14.239 I was on, I was I was starting on what 0:42:14.360 --> 0:42:18.240 is the Washington Predator Prey Project. Yeah, okay, break that down. Okay, 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:21.600 So I am like I said that projects winding up. 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:27.800 But it was a a project between a cooperation between 0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:31.560 the University of Washington and Washington Apartment of Fishing Wildlife 0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:38.600 UM basically in a nutshell, looking at how re colonizing 0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:42.560 wolves could be affecting a number of other species. Dear 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:47.640 Elk of course, and then um cougars as well. And 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.920 then the component that I mostly worked on was meso 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:56.360 carnivores so bobcats and coyotes. Um, with sort of the 0:42:56.760 --> 0:43:00.279 explaining the word meso carnivores medium sized, medium side, what's 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:03.839 the word for? Like what what's a little teeny one 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:11.360 called one of the little guys? I don't know, smart cardiores? 0:43:11.400 --> 0:43:16.960 Smart car um? All right, go on, okay, so bobcats 0:43:16.960 --> 0:43:20.800 and coyotes so um. Basically just just looking at the premise, 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:24.160 uh that with the return of wolves and with other 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:27.719 any larger predators that are taking down larger prey, they 0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:30.439 could be creating This is kind of the theory behind 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:36.280 the study. They could be creating um. Either food opportunities 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:40.239 for meso carnivores because they can scavenge the deer carcasses, 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:44.719 out carcasses, et cetera, and so that could be a 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:48.680 benefit to the meusic carnivores. But it could also be 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:51.759 what they call a fatal attraction because these music carnivores 0:43:51.760 --> 0:43:54.960 could be attracted to these spots and then they themselves 0:43:54.960 --> 0:43:59.360 get get killed by the bigger predator. Yeah. So basically 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:02.719 it's interesting. Yeah, so is that the true definition of 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:05.680 fatal attraction is that what that comes from. It's a movie, dude. 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:10.480 It might just be applied to this, to this ecological 0:44:10.840 --> 0:44:15.280 uh theory. What's that movie about? That was Glenn Close? 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:19.680 Oh that's my pills here? Come on, Bill laid down? 0:44:20.560 --> 0:44:23.400 I don't know's the sharing stone one? That's basic instinct? 0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:28.880 Thank you? Glenn Close gets very jealous and uh, you 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:31.439 know it goes out the deep end, got it? That's 0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:33.759 the quick it's not about it's like not like a 0:44:33.840 --> 0:44:41.920 David Atton Burrow Navigate narrated. Um. You know what's interesting 0:44:41.920 --> 0:44:46.520 about the creating more food resources? Uh. We have a 0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:50.200 friend who likes to run his hounds, um, and he 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:55.600 runs mountain lions mostly, but he also runs bobcats. And 0:44:55.800 --> 0:45:00.279 he was telling me that in December, when the season arts, 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:03.880 you don't cut a lot of cat tracks, he says, 0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:05.840 because there's too many. There's still all the deer and 0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:09.680 elk carcasses from hunting season on the ground. Interesting, Yeah, 0:45:09.760 --> 0:45:11.880 because you kind of his theory is you kind of 0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:15.160 wait and as those deer and elk carcasses from late 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:20.200 November get mopped up, then you start seeing cats spreading 0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:22.400 out more and they're not just stuck in one place 0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:26.000 feeding on some you know, carcass and gut pile. Yeah, no, 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:29.920 I mean that that makes sense doing going to on 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:35.440 on various other projects. Um, wolf clusters is what we 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:38.120 call them. It's basically wolves that have had GPS colors on. 0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:41.799 They're taking a fix every two to four hours, and 0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:46.600 so you can then download those those GPS points on 0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:51.080 cheer computer run an algorithm that pulls out spots where 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:56.799 GPS points have been sort of clumping up within a 0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:59.759 certain you know radius of you know, something like two 0:45:59.800 --> 0:46:03.080 hunters within a certain time frame. So basically the wolves 0:46:03.120 --> 0:46:05.320 were hanging out in this little spot for a while. 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:08.200 So that's you guys have figured out how to do 0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:11.439 that automatically. Yeah, because it's gotta be every fifteen minutes. 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:14.319 It's gotta be like an enormous amount of every two 0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:18.319 two to four hours. I mean you can hold did 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:22.479 I word fifteen minutes come from? I think? So every 0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:24.800 two to four hours, So every two to four hours 0:46:24.880 --> 0:46:29.040 he like makes it drops a pin basically yeah, yeah, 0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:31.400 and you can set that that fixed rate is what 0:46:31.440 --> 0:46:33.640 that's called too. I mean you could do you can 0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:36.240 some projects just depending on what question you're trying to answer. 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:39.600 You could have a really really fine scaled movement path 0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:41.439 of an animal because it could be getting a fixed 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:44.719 rate every fifteen or thirty minutes or whatever. But for 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.279 kill sites, they've they've done the stats and every two 0:46:48.320 --> 0:46:50.719 hours is is what you want? Really? And so does 0:46:50.800 --> 0:46:54.640 your does your program or wherever the hell just start 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:58.319 It just starts spitting out way points where there's a 0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:02.160 cluster of activity. Yea, yeah in the morning. Um, you 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:05.359 just download the latest batch of data you run. It's 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:10.040 just a computer algorithm. It pulls out those, um those 0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:12.839 clusters and then you you put them on a map 0:47:12.880 --> 0:47:15.000 and you see, Okay, they spend time there. They spent 0:47:15.080 --> 0:47:17.239 time there, and they spent time there, and so there's 0:47:17.239 --> 0:47:20.120 my day. I'm gonna go out there and investigate these 0:47:20.160 --> 0:47:23.200 and it's this is um yeah they you know us 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:26.200 this for cougars and and it's a common So how 0:47:26.200 --> 0:47:29.239 many days a week to get to go do that? Well, 0:47:29.320 --> 0:47:31.600 when I've been working on projects where that's been my 0:47:32.040 --> 0:47:34.279 full time job for some projects, it's going to going 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:38.359 to kill sites just every days. Pretty lucky. That's one 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:41.080 of my I would trade you jobs in a second 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:45.360 man I'm not gonna lie. It's do you bring a 0:47:45.360 --> 0:47:49.680 lot of that? John Colem Are you trying? Not supposed to? Um? 0:47:49.719 --> 0:47:52.719 I got a lot of junk in my house. I've 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:55.920 I've I've definitely reined it in a bit. But I've 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.600 always been like that. I've always been picking up diction. Yeah, 0:47:59.640 --> 0:48:03.239 because all that walking around you probably finding shed antlers 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:07.200 and deadheads and oh yeah yeah, yeah, lots of cool stuff. 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:08.600 So what do you when you go to all these 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:10.439 kill sites? What are you looking for? Where the data 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:12.880 points you're picking up there? Well, again that sort of 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:16.680 just depends on the question, but usually if you're going 0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:18.200 to kill site, it's one of the main things you're 0:48:18.239 --> 0:48:20.480 you're trying to figure out, is okay, what happened here? Well, 0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:23.960 let me back up, because one thing is for for wolves. 0:48:24.000 --> 0:48:26.240 I know, I don't remember what the rate is with cougars, 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:31.360 but with wolves, it's about the clusters that you go 0:48:31.480 --> 0:48:33.959 to have a kill at them. So you might go, 0:48:35.280 --> 0:48:37.160 you know, to lots of clusters and they were just 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:39.759 taking a nap. I mean, they sleep a ton, So 0:48:39.800 --> 0:48:43.200 you end up going to a lot of betting spots um, 0:48:43.280 --> 0:48:45.560 and so you might have just spent you know, half 0:48:45.600 --> 0:48:48.960 your day getting there, and it's a betting spot. But 0:48:48.960 --> 0:48:50.880 but you start to kind of put together a picture, 0:48:50.960 --> 0:48:52.680 especially if you go in order, and you're like, okay, 0:48:53.400 --> 0:48:57.200 m this this clusters. It's winter and it's up on 0:48:57.239 --> 0:49:01.920 a sunny you know, south racing slope, up up on 0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:04.759 the ridge line. Oh, I bet that's going to be 0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:08.640 a betting area. Sure enough, you go there and it's 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:11.640 a betting area. Usually then you see a cluster and 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:16.920 it's down in some gnarly, thick looking uh you know, 0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.520 canion a hell whole, and you're like, oh, that's that one. 0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:25.800 I'm exciting about it. Oh yeah, because a lot of 0:49:25.840 --> 0:49:28.480 times I think what happens is the deer elk are 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:31.239 getting chased and where they get hung up is down 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:35.200 in these bottoms. So for example, I was um at 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:38.360 a really cool killsite this winter. It was a really 0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:43.000 deep canyon just um you know, creaked down in the bottom, 0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:49.160 and I could reconstruct what happened just from from tracks 0:49:49.160 --> 0:49:52.000 in the snow. Another sign and there had been a 0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:55.200 moose that was fi on a willow um and kind 0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:58.640 of betting and whatever, and then you could see the 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:03.400 wolves came down this really steep mountain side, and and 0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:06.760 there was a short sort of chase where all tracks 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:08.640 came together. You could see where the moose had sort 0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:10.759 of leapt and been up to his belly in the 0:50:10.800 --> 0:50:14.840 snow heading down and it hits towards the bottom. And 0:50:14.840 --> 0:50:16.200 you know how when you're snow shooting in the winter 0:50:16.200 --> 0:50:17.640 and all of a sudden you stepped too close to 0:50:17.680 --> 0:50:21.360 a log and you sunk into your hipped. That's what 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.360 happened to the moose. So there was a blanket of 0:50:23.400 --> 0:50:27.120 snow from the mountain side to or you know, from 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:30.239 the ground to this big, huge log, and it looked 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:33.440 like the moose had just stepped in the wrong spot, 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:38.440 gotten mired, and when the wolves overtook it, and so anyway, 0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:42.440 bloodthirsty killers. Do you think the moose knew at that 0:50:42.640 --> 0:50:47.880 point that the jig was up, like lost a wheel? 0:50:48.160 --> 0:50:54.000 It probably? Yeah. Do you find do you do you 0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:58.480 find um? Do you find where they ever like surplus 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:02.279 killing events? Do you ever find at near searches? I've no, 0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:04.200 I've never seen that. It's not like when like when 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.400 a mountainin gets into like a sheet pasture and just 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:12.720 don't know at the bedding sides. Don't you also collect 0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:15.279 you're collecting fecal matter, right, so you can see what 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:18.920 they've been eating in the percentage of alpha. Right, we 0:51:19.040 --> 0:51:22.400 got to collect on um. Yeah, I mean you can 0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:25.120 get so much information from collecting scot. You can do diet, 0:51:25.160 --> 0:51:26.839 you can do genetics. That's a lot of what we've 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:30.200 been doing, and the status, the percentage of some high status. 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:33.080 You can see who's getting the meat and who's well. 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:35.600 And a cool thing about scott is you can see 0:51:36.360 --> 0:51:39.800 um from the type of scat. So if I'm arriving 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:41.680 at a place where I think you can't it's not 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:45.120 always easy, especially at wolf clusters to find the kill, 0:51:45.239 --> 0:51:47.840 especially in the summertime. In the summertime, because the clusters 0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:50.200 is too big, because they kind of go all over 0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:51.960 the place. They'll go and eat for a while and 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:56.320 then they'll go sometimes the ways off in bed I 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:59.880 don't know, maybe I mean two. And if you're in 0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:03.920 a thick, broken up terrain, it can be tough. And 0:52:04.040 --> 0:52:07.200 so knowing that there's probably some amount of remains of 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:15.360 an animal within a wide circle round a lot of 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:18.400 scrounging and crawling and just looking for any sort of 0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:23.160 sign but um. But when I arrive at one of 0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:25.960 those clusters. And I see, I don't know what. I 0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:30.480 call it a carcass early carcass scat. So when they're 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:34.360 the um, when they eat the organs first, and the 0:52:35.080 --> 0:52:38.400 breeder male and female usually get to eat the organs 0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:43.560 um because they're higher nutrition, and that then when they 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:46.720 take a ship, it's really nasty. It's black and running 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:49.399 because it's not bound together by hair, right, it's black 0:52:49.440 --> 0:52:52.080 and running, and so you know, okay, that's that there's 0:52:52.120 --> 0:52:54.439 a there's a decent chance that that's the breeder male 0:52:54.520 --> 0:52:57.040 or female, and that's they just ate the organs. So 0:52:57.080 --> 0:52:59.160 it's an early carcass scat. So we're getting close. And 0:52:59.200 --> 0:53:02.360 so then I often won't get excited, like a breaking 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:04.120 car gets here somewhere and we just got to find it, 0:53:04.239 --> 0:53:06.440 like it runs right through them, it goes well. They 0:53:06.480 --> 0:53:08.000 I mean, they're usually there for a while. I don't 0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:11.200 know how lony long enough. Yeah, human babies have similar 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:13.920 poops the first week of their lives. Yeah, it's even 0:53:13.960 --> 0:53:19.600 got a special name. It's not even called. My pet 0:53:19.680 --> 0:53:25.719 theory about um the organ the organ consumption. My pet 0:53:25.800 --> 0:53:28.480 theory is this is that I understand that there's like 0:53:28.480 --> 0:53:31.640 a nutritional load. Right, But I also liked the idea, 0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:36.759 and I think I maybe invented this. Uh, if you 0:53:36.800 --> 0:53:40.080 can eat it fast and you don't know when you're 0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:41.799 gonna lose it because someone else is going to show 0:53:41.840 --> 0:53:44.920 up and beat your ass, right, I think that's what 0:53:45.080 --> 0:53:48.160 makes so you're like you can just inhale the liver, 0:53:48.440 --> 0:53:50.520 that's correct, and then all of a sudden, then all 0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:52.440 of a sudden, whoever else shows up, here's a grizzly. 0:53:52.520 --> 0:53:54.600 They don't get meat drunk from eating that. That's really 0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:56.560 that's I haven't read that, and you might be the 0:53:56.600 --> 0:53:58.600 first one. That's a good hypothesis. You should write that 0:53:58.680 --> 0:54:03.480 up in the senator. You watch like there's very few 0:54:03.560 --> 0:54:08.640 animals that are comfortable on a carcass, like the amount 0:54:08.640 --> 0:54:11.200 of energy they're expanding, whipping their head around and investigating 0:54:11.239 --> 0:54:14.560 every sound and every smell, like it's not like, okay, 0:54:14.680 --> 0:54:18.080 time to relax and eat. Carmen, do you ever show 0:54:18.160 --> 0:54:21.440 up on the when you when you're on the clusters, 0:54:21.600 --> 0:54:23.080 how often do you show up and bump them out 0:54:23.120 --> 0:54:25.840 of there? Well, we try, really really are not to 0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:28.280 do that, but we don't want to be affecting their behavior. 0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:30.839 Bumping them off a kill and if especially if you're 0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:33.320 doing a kill rate studying, need to be well, you 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.160 always need to be really careful about that. But you 0:54:35.200 --> 0:54:39.040 wouldn't want to accidentally affect their kill rate by following 0:54:39.400 --> 0:54:42.239 them so closely as they go around the woods that 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:45.920 you're bumping them. So what like when you show up, 0:54:46.040 --> 0:54:52.279 usually how many hours have passed since they've moved on? Days? Yeah, 0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:56.960 for and and there's for different species and states. I 0:54:57.000 --> 0:55:00.480 would imagine there's different rules on how really you can 0:55:00.520 --> 0:55:03.040 go in. It would never be that you'd wake up. 0:55:03.080 --> 0:55:04.640 You would never wake up and see that there was 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:09.000 a cluster from midnight and run out there. And by design, 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:11.160 you don't do that, right by the design, it's it's 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:14.680 always I mean, if we didn't have to worry about 0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:18.520 affecting their behavior, be really nice because very quickly, um 0:55:19.080 --> 0:55:21.440 you know with scavengers and that sort of thing, the 0:55:21.600 --> 0:55:26.239 longer it's been since the the kill event, the harder 0:55:26.239 --> 0:55:29.560 I gets to really accurately assess what's going on, because, 0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:33.080 um it, killside analysis is kind of one of those 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:35.920 things that, um, it's easy until you start learning more 0:55:35.920 --> 0:55:38.960 and then you realize it's easy, except for when it's 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:44.640 not because you don't really ever know if they are 0:55:44.680 --> 0:55:46.640 the ones that killed it. No, that's not true. Sometimes 0:55:46.680 --> 0:55:49.520 you're you're really really confident that they killed it, your 0:55:49.680 --> 0:55:52.120 animal of interest killed it. But there's a lot of 0:55:52.200 --> 0:55:54.840 scavenging that goes on out there, and so there's a 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:58.319 lot of just weird stuff that can happen to any 0:55:58.360 --> 0:56:01.560 animal you know, to die, and so it could always 0:56:01.560 --> 0:56:04.080 be a scavenging of it. When you to get to 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:10.160 the meso predators, Um, are they often there? Mm hmmm. 0:56:11.239 --> 0:56:12.759 Trying to think if I've ever come up on a 0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:19.440 kill and seen I've heard a cougar once, Um, I've 0:56:19.480 --> 0:56:22.799 seen bears coming up. I don't. I don't think I've 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:24.439 ever come up on a kill. I mean we're usually 0:56:24.520 --> 0:56:26.640 kind of you know, on a snowmobile or we're crashing 0:56:26.719 --> 0:56:28.520 through the woods stuff like that. We're not we're not 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:32.040 trying to sneak in especially summertime and bears are out. 0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:36.880 So relate the relate the work though to how to 0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:44.520 how do you then roll in the impacts on Kyle's bobcats. Okay, 0:56:44.600 --> 0:56:46.560 so we have so it's not just so going to 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:51.120 kill sites for for that question, the um putting up 0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:53.520 cameras was was one of the main goals. So we 0:56:53.680 --> 0:56:56.040 get to a kill and and put up a trail 0:56:56.120 --> 0:57:00.400 camera and um and leave it there at least a 0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:06.520 month trying to capture different different interactions between uh apex 0:57:06.719 --> 0:57:11.000 or large carnivores and music carnivores. You set it on video. No, 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:14.800 it takes too much battery and memory to do that. 0:57:15.000 --> 0:57:17.520 But um, do you do like the clusters? Three three 0:57:17.520 --> 0:57:20.360 shot clusters shot clusters? So we usually have thousands of 0:57:20.400 --> 0:57:23.240 photos and that's that's always like a little just opening 0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:25.440 up a treasure box. Do you have software that sorts 0:57:25.520 --> 0:57:28.880 you all that? The project is going to use software? 0:57:28.960 --> 0:57:32.160 But um, I mean whenever I collect a camera, I 0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:34.200 certainly go through because I'm excited to see what's on it. 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:36.680 So can you get in there and look at all 0:57:36.760 --> 0:57:40.400 those images? Yeah? Yeah, And so the other the other 0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:42.960 part of that is that we're trapping and collering. We 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:47.000 were trapping and callering coyotes and bobcats so that we 0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:50.720 could and then the wolves and cougars are also colored 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:54.720 in the area, and then um, they can use those 0:57:54.760 --> 0:57:57.840 different movement patterns to see how they might be avoiding 0:57:57.880 --> 0:57:59.840 each other on the landscape or not that sort of thing. 0:58:00.560 --> 0:58:04.680 And then also collecting scats for genetic analysis for some 0:58:05.080 --> 0:58:08.200 different population demographics and that sort of thing. So and 0:58:08.360 --> 0:58:12.920 you were you were involved in putting the collars on them. Yeah, yep, 0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:15.720 so I was in charge of So my job on 0:58:15.800 --> 0:58:17.439 the project. I don't work for the state. I don't 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:20.360 work well, I work for you dub. There's um some 0:58:20.800 --> 0:58:25.880 wonderful graduate students that are heading each section of the research, 0:58:26.000 --> 0:58:30.920 various research projects that are under the Washington Predator Prey umbrella, 0:58:30.960 --> 0:58:33.080 and you can, you know, look those up online. There's 0:58:33.080 --> 0:58:37.040 a website. But um, I was hired by you dub 0:58:37.440 --> 0:58:43.520 to run the fuel component of the Music Carnivore project. So, um, 0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:48.160 every season, our our our main goal was in the 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:52.520 winter trapping bobcats and in the summer trapping coyotes. And 0:58:52.680 --> 0:58:56.600 how are you catching the bobcats with cage traps? Yeah? 0:58:56.800 --> 0:59:00.600 So it doesn't fly, No, it doesn't unless they are 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:03.800 a very desperate kyot. I think the project we've got 0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:06.560 to study areas, and not in my study area, but 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:09.200 the other one. Um, we were working with some trappers, 0:59:09.520 --> 0:59:11.880 so they caught a bobcat that they didn't want to take, 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:14.680 they could contact us, we go over there and put 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.920 a collar on it. Well, they contacted us once with 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:22.680 a kyo that had gone to a have been super hungry. 0:59:23.120 --> 0:59:25.240 And are you guys, when you're rigging up those cage traps, 0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:28.520 are you guys using a like an audio element, like 0:59:28.600 --> 0:59:30.960 you put like a call, like a bird bird squawk 0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:33.600 mechanism or anything like that near it. I have used 0:59:33.680 --> 0:59:38.960 those before. Um, we didn't use those on this project, though. 0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:43.240 We were We were using visual little teddy bears, and 0:59:44.040 --> 0:59:46.800 not little teddy bears, but shiny stuff basically cat toys. 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:50.520 I mean seriously, I've had cameras on on traps and 0:59:50.720 --> 0:59:54.439 I like to So I set my trap, I cover 0:59:54.560 --> 0:59:57.160 it with branches, get it all tucked in, real nice, 0:59:57.320 --> 1:00:01.440 and then just outside the door, I'll hang just a 1:00:01.520 --> 1:00:07.400 little ball of shiny uh you know monofilm. No, No, sorry, Um, 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.720 what's that called bird tape? Really shiny bird tape? Yeah, 1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:13.360 that sort of thing, basically hanging that from monofilment so 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:14.880 it can kind of blow in the breeze and hopefully 1:00:15.160 --> 1:00:19.920 catch the moonlight or whatever. And I have pictures and 1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:23.959 videos of cats playing with that, like a damn house 1:00:24.000 --> 1:00:26.400 cat before going into the trap, and what are you 1:00:26.480 --> 1:00:29.400 baiting the trap with order or use any meat? All 1:00:29.480 --> 1:00:33.040 kinds of stuff we use, uh, lots of just you know, 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:36.920 lures and baits that you can get from fm T 1:00:37.080 --> 1:00:40.320 fur trappers or whatever. But you guys haven't done that 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:41.720 because you see a lot of guys that use those 1:00:41.760 --> 1:00:43.800 cage traps will take little stuff to animals, but get 1:00:43.920 --> 1:00:46.840 really high quality eyes pull the pull the bad eyes 1:00:46.880 --> 1:00:49.800 off and put good eyes on it and place. Yeah, 1:00:49.880 --> 1:00:52.000 now I've seen that. Um. And then well in the 1:00:52.040 --> 1:00:54.280 back of the trap. I usually then hang some feathers 1:00:54.320 --> 1:00:55.880 to kind of catch the wind too, so I use 1:00:55.920 --> 1:00:59.120 the visual in the trap as well. And then whatever 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:03.200 smelly stuff you know, and then um, what do you 1:01:03.280 --> 1:01:07.640 doing to mitigate your own scent with cats? Nothing? Yeah, 1:01:07.680 --> 1:01:09.520 they're not. I mean you can just look at their 1:01:09.560 --> 1:01:12.560 skull and see they're not. They're not built for super 1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:16.920 super smelling like a coyotes. That's very judgmental, Yeah that is. 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:20.280 But you know what they got squashed faces. You're the 1:01:20.320 --> 1:01:25.280 type of reads book title knows all about it. It's 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:28.840 just physiology. When you're trapping cats, you're setting on signed 1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:31.919 Is it pretty important? My yeah, because we don't where 1:01:31.960 --> 1:01:35.360 we're trapping. It's not like there's a Bobcat around every corner. 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:40.320 And so you can best case scenario, you see fresh sign, 1:01:40.480 --> 1:01:42.720 you set a trap, and they're still in the area 1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:44.560 for the next couple of days and happen. You know, 1:01:45.000 --> 1:01:46.840 to go buy your trap and detect it and go in. 1:01:47.440 --> 1:01:51.520 But sometimes you you see sign you set and they're 1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:54.080 not back for two weeks. They're cycling over in some 1:01:54.200 --> 1:01:56.760 other area of their their home range. We're fine that 1:01:56.920 --> 1:01:59.880 the bob cats have really big home ranges and made 1:02:00.240 --> 1:02:05.720 crazy movements. Um, it's pretty incredible. But yeah, so setting 1:02:05.720 --> 1:02:09.280 on sign is really important. So basically you just get 1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:13.600 to go out tracking and when you see something good, Yeah, 1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:15.440 I get the log a lot of hours out there 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:19.640 wanting around. Are you by yourself mostly? Um, depends on 1:02:19.720 --> 1:02:22.439 the project. There's some some work that I've done where 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:26.920 I'm mostly alone, um, and other's where I'm not doing this. 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:29.920 We were, we were worked in teams. Yeah, and then um, 1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:32.800 when you run into people, are people kind of like 1:02:33.360 --> 1:02:35.760 curious what you're doing? Do you bother to explain it 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:37.040 to them? And you try to act with you doing 1:02:37.080 --> 1:02:40.479 something else? No, I mean I'm yeah, No, I'm always 1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:42.480 happy to talk to the public if they come up 1:02:42.480 --> 1:02:45.640 and have questions or or whatever. And people do, and um, 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:49.560 sometimes they share their stories and sometimes they're really out there. 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:52.360 But I wanted Yeah, no, I definitely talked to whoever. 1:02:53.600 --> 1:02:55.360 And at the starty you've been working on is there 1:02:56.600 --> 1:03:00.800 do you feel that there was a um meaningful stuff 1:03:00.840 --> 1:03:02.880 came out of it Now that it's winding down, like, 1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:08.320 do you feel that like actionable meaningful. I'm trying to 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:11.000 use the word data and my results. I was trying 1:03:11.000 --> 1:03:15.320 to get data. Data is great, Yeah, data data, but 1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:18.000 I didn't finish I didn't finish the sentence. I said data. 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:21.360 You know I'm talking about that. Yeah, it's getting I 1:03:21.480 --> 1:03:25.040 think that this this UM, the group of grad students 1:03:25.080 --> 1:03:27.560 that are and and wdf W employees that are working 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:31.680 on this study are I'm really excited to see there. 1:03:31.760 --> 1:03:35.560 There's still in an analysis phase and um, you know, 1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:39.040 the results are not mine this year. But I'm just 1:03:39.200 --> 1:03:42.479 knowing these people. I'm they're going to do a great 1:03:42.560 --> 1:03:46.920 job thinking about the data that they're getting and being 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:50.800 really thoughtful and and throw and and answer me important questions. 1:03:50.840 --> 1:03:53.720 And we've got a ton of data from this project. 1:03:53.960 --> 1:03:55.920 So are you doing that science e thing right now 1:03:56.080 --> 1:03:59.760 where um, you're not saying what happened because you guys 1:03:59.800 --> 1:04:02.600 got go with your little process and everything. I really 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:04.919 don't know. I mean, it's it's hot. You can't really 1:04:05.040 --> 1:04:08.360 look at first of all, I've been involved heavily and 1:04:08.720 --> 1:04:11.280 all the other facets of the project for the Meso 1:04:11.360 --> 1:04:15.840 carnivores stuff. I mean we've just been out there busting 1:04:15.920 --> 1:04:19.280 it and collecting and collecting data, and so without analyzing 1:04:19.320 --> 1:04:21.480 it or at least, you know, visualizing that data with 1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:23.360 graphs and stuff, it's hard to say what kind of 1:04:23.400 --> 1:04:25.880 trends you might be pulling out. You gotta wait for 1:04:26.000 --> 1:04:29.720 the paper to come out. I think Steve was trying 1:04:29.760 --> 1:04:31.760 to ask you, are you doing one of those government 1:04:31.880 --> 1:04:35.680 science things where they give you the conclusion first and 1:04:35.760 --> 1:04:39.120 then they hire you to get the data that. Yeah, 1:04:39.200 --> 1:04:44.440 I've done all that show us that wolves are made 1:04:44.480 --> 1:04:48.960 of rainbow. Whatever they want, that's what they are you 1:04:49.040 --> 1:04:54.760 to do. Yeah, no pressure, No, absolutely not. I I've 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.920 um the integrity of the science that I've worked on, 1:04:59.040 --> 1:05:02.000 I think is a always been really Yeah, it's just 1:05:03.160 --> 1:05:07.200 good scientists just out there trying to answer questions that 1:05:07.240 --> 1:05:10.040 they're interested in do you feel that, um, but do 1:05:10.080 --> 1:05:16.560 you feel that people are like they want to demonstrate 1:05:18.160 --> 1:05:22.160 that that wolves will bring us these beautiful trophic cascades, 1:05:23.240 --> 1:05:27.720 like they want to show that. We recently talked about 1:05:27.720 --> 1:05:30.840 a paper someone put out that was my goodness. Here's 1:05:30.880 --> 1:05:34.560 one thing about wolves is they really reduce car dear 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:40.560 vehicle collisions. And in reading the paper, you're like you said, man, 1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:43.320 here's an interesting thing to do. I should show that 1:05:43.400 --> 1:05:48.840 it reduces car vehicle collisions because that'd be helpful. Yeah, 1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:54.360 smelled like that. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying 1:05:54.880 --> 1:05:57.560 and getting it. And I've you know, seen that in 1:05:57.680 --> 1:06:01.560 papers and stuff, but my my has been I don't know, 1:06:01.920 --> 1:06:07.560 really solid good projects. So that was very much one 1:06:07.600 --> 1:06:09.520 I was going in with this assumption when I was 1:06:09.560 --> 1:06:15.800 reading this paper by this fellow, Jonah Kim, who looked 1:06:15.960 --> 1:06:25.000 at the advantages uh predators get by traveling um roads, 1:06:26.040 --> 1:06:28.960 uh you know, clean trails things like that. This is 1:06:29.000 --> 1:06:34.000 in Canada, so there's all sorts of like oil pipeline 1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:36.560 roads and and cut line roads and things like that. 1:06:37.200 --> 1:06:41.720 And so he put together the study where he looked 1:06:41.760 --> 1:06:45.000 at just the efficiency of travel in these areas and 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:50.480 how that impacts the um pray species. And it was 1:06:50.760 --> 1:06:52.640 all very good stuff, but you kind of had this 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:56.520 feeling that he was coming down to, so the solution 1:06:56.840 --> 1:07:01.520 is not killing wolves. It's make the country harder to travel, 1:07:02.200 --> 1:07:05.080 like putting up impediments on roads and trails that we 1:07:05.240 --> 1:07:09.360 make for to make life easier for us UM. And 1:07:09.480 --> 1:07:11.760 I was like, yeah, well yeah, But then at the 1:07:11.960 --> 1:07:17.120 end he's like, however, this is not, uh like this 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:21.200 golden solution to a complex problem. And he laid out 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:24.360 the complexity of the issue and then came down to 1:07:24.520 --> 1:07:27.880 saying like, and if you're in a scenario where your 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:34.520 prey species are so reduced that the predator species population 1:07:35.960 --> 1:07:39.000 UH has a distinct advantage, this is not the only 1:07:39.080 --> 1:07:41.040 thing that you can do the like, there will have 1:07:41.240 --> 1:07:44.280 to be some sort of lethal removal on your predator population. 1:07:44.480 --> 1:07:45.880 So in the end, it didn't feel like you were 1:07:45.920 --> 1:07:50.560 reading cancer research sponsored by the tobacco company exactly. So 1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:53.960 that's a shout out for lead author Jonah Time. I 1:07:54.040 --> 1:07:56.320 hope I'm saying your name right. That was a good paper. 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:09.800 So Carmen, UH, two questions for you. Two more questions 1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:13.880 for you, UM, talk about catching the coyotes, like how 1:08:13.880 --> 1:08:16.040 you catching to put a collar on them? And then 1:08:16.320 --> 1:08:18.000 then I'm then I need to hear what you're doing 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:22.280 next now that you're doing this, um, catching coyotes. That's 1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:27.400 probably my favorite kind of trapping, just because of the challenge. 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:31.759 It's also in a lot of ways my least favorite, 1:08:31.880 --> 1:08:34.599 just because of um, well, it just kind of makes 1:08:34.640 --> 1:08:37.240 you feel bad on a lot of days. It's like 1:08:37.320 --> 1:08:39.639 you can't wait to get out there and check your traps, 1:08:39.720 --> 1:08:43.719 but man, I don't know things can foot Hold trapping 1:08:43.880 --> 1:08:46.400 is just it's kind of, um, it's a little harsh. 1:08:46.560 --> 1:08:49.559 It's a little harsh, and so we're we are foot 1:08:49.600 --> 1:08:52.800 hold trapping for coyotes. It's really the only practical way 1:08:52.880 --> 1:08:56.800 to catch canan's because they're so smart and they're so 1:08:57.000 --> 1:09:04.640 wary and um and so in that regard really fascinating 1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:09.240 because you're just having to, um work really hard to 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:12.840 get to know the animals that are in the area 1:09:12.920 --> 1:09:16.519 that you're trying to trap, and you never really figure 1:09:16.560 --> 1:09:19.840 it out. They're always, you know, just throwing something new 1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:22.439 at you. Um. And so it's really interesting in that way, 1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:24.960 just I mean, from exactly how you set your trap 1:09:25.240 --> 1:09:27.760 to where you put your trap to what area of 1:09:27.800 --> 1:09:30.160 the mountain that you're you're trapping on? You gotta there's 1:09:30.240 --> 1:09:32.200 just so many different variables that you're trying to trying 1:09:32.240 --> 1:09:38.160 to figure out, and it's so frustrating. Victor's number three 1:09:38.360 --> 1:09:42.120 for coil, and then we use um they like the 1:09:42.200 --> 1:09:46.000 laminated jaws. They've got a rubber offset jaw. Yeah, so 1:09:46.240 --> 1:09:50.360 I mean I could, I've could. You know, I often 1:09:50.439 --> 1:09:52.600 got my hand stuck in it for whatever reason, just 1:09:52.760 --> 1:09:54.960 not being careful and stuff, and it didn't you know, 1:09:55.080 --> 1:09:57.000 it doesn't feel good, that's for sure, But it's not 1:09:57.120 --> 1:09:59.840 like it's breaking scanner. And then you do you ang 1:10:00.040 --> 1:10:01.920 kurt with like an earth anchor? Or do you use 1:10:02.000 --> 1:10:06.680 a steak? Um? We so we'd we'd use well, we 1:10:06.840 --> 1:10:10.080 used lots of things, um steaks. But in our area 1:10:10.320 --> 1:10:13.479 it's so rocky, the soil is so bad. It's really hard. 1:10:13.520 --> 1:10:17.040 You see these YouTube videos of guys catching coyouts and 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:19.880 they're out in you know, corn fields where every single 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:22.439 rock has been picked and the ground is so soft 1:10:22.520 --> 1:10:25.120 and loaming, and they're just like punk punk punk, you know, 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:28.040 punch in a trap and two minutes we're out there 1:10:28.280 --> 1:10:31.559 in you know degree whether because we're having to trap 1:10:31.600 --> 1:10:33.240 in the summer because you can't do it in the 1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:35.080 winter where we are, so you're trapping in the summer, 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:39.960 which is a whole another set of um difficulty because 1:10:41.000 --> 1:10:43.439 because we are trapping for research and so are our 1:10:43.520 --> 1:10:47.720 ethical standard for how we're treating these animals is different. Right, 1:10:47.760 --> 1:10:50.760 We've got this professional turn it out in a healthy condition, right, 1:10:50.840 --> 1:10:54.599 and so we're trying to do we're trying to especially 1:10:54.680 --> 1:10:57.559 on this project, I wanted to really raise the bar 1:10:58.000 --> 1:11:02.800 on our both of our well the capture element, so 1:11:03.240 --> 1:11:08.960 so making it as humane as we could, which is 1:11:09.000 --> 1:11:12.719 difficult with foothold trapping, and then also the handling part, 1:11:12.840 --> 1:11:15.160 so when you actually come up to an animal in 1:11:15.200 --> 1:11:18.720 the trap and then drug it and and do the handling, Um, 1:11:18.840 --> 1:11:23.640 those can be pretty rodeo ish and there's been a 1:11:23.680 --> 1:11:28.080 lot of kind of just um, I don't know, cowboys 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:31.920 culture around those handlings traditionally not I mean, that's not 1:11:32.040 --> 1:11:35.439 across the board by any means. But I think that 1:11:35.680 --> 1:11:41.160 that um, we're getting better at being really thoughtful about 1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:45.840 not only just getting our animal to live through that experience, 1:11:46.120 --> 1:11:50.280 but to um have it be as least stressful and 1:11:50.320 --> 1:11:53.320 painful for them as possible. So so we've been working 1:11:53.360 --> 1:11:57.400 really hard to raise the bar there um. But back 1:11:57.439 --> 1:12:00.920 to the different types of anchors. We so we tried 1:12:01.000 --> 1:12:05.240 steaks way too rocky, use earth acres, but the main 1:12:05.560 --> 1:12:08.040 the main thing we use is UM a grapple hook 1:12:08.320 --> 1:12:12.080 on a long chain which you buried down onto the trap. Yeah, 1:12:12.240 --> 1:12:14.920 usually or sometimes just kind of bury it in the bushes, 1:12:14.960 --> 1:12:18.559 under leaves and stuff behind it. But basically, what as 1:12:18.600 --> 1:12:21.280 you're selecting your exact trap site, there's a lot of 1:12:21.320 --> 1:12:24.160 things you got to think about. Aside from just is 1:12:24.240 --> 1:12:26.439 this a good spot to catch kyo? Is there is 1:12:26.479 --> 1:12:29.080 it a likely spot? You've got to think about is 1:12:29.120 --> 1:12:31.479 there a drop off somewhere, because they could then you know, 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:35.680 drag the grapple, and the grapple could get hung up 1:12:35.920 --> 1:12:39.160 and then they're off off the you know, cliff dangling 1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:41.400 from the trap. So you're thinking about that, You're thinking 1:12:41.400 --> 1:12:45.599 about shade because it's summertime. UM, You're thinking about human traffic, 1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:47.519 is this road too busy? That sort of thing. So 1:12:47.600 --> 1:12:50.479 there's a lot of safety variables that have to come together. 1:12:51.000 --> 1:12:53.680 UM And so most of the time, what what ends 1:12:53.760 --> 1:12:57.680 up being the preferred um steaking method is to use 1:12:57.680 --> 1:12:59.920 a grapple, because then they can get off the road, 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:02.200 get hung up in some shade, be a little bit 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:04.800 away from from the road of people come by, whatever, 1:13:05.120 --> 1:13:07.000 and then you don't have some motor is freaking out 1:13:07.080 --> 1:13:09.400 or hurting the thing or calling the cops or whatever 1:13:09.479 --> 1:13:12.280 the hell exactly. And we're out there super early checking traps, 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:15.240 so hopefully before people are there. But yeah, and then 1:13:15.280 --> 1:13:17.200 you work them up like you tranquilize them, put a 1:13:17.280 --> 1:13:21.760 collar on them. Yeah, take like biometric data off them. Yeah, 1:13:25.400 --> 1:13:30.400 take biometric data off so, um, we call it body measurements. 1:13:30.600 --> 1:13:34.000 But yeah, I went overboard, you went over but that's good, 1:13:34.120 --> 1:13:37.640 that's good. Um. Yeah, so you come up on the 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:43.720 trap and um, with the grapple, it's always even more 1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:46.240 exciting because you sometimes you get to the trap and 1:13:46.360 --> 1:13:49.720 you see, oh, it's just not there. It doesn't look 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:53.360 quite like I left it. And so then you're looking 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:56.360 around in the bushes and it can actually be hard 1:13:56.439 --> 1:13:59.280 to spot the animals case they've usually just they're usually 1:13:59.320 --> 1:14:02.439 just frozen with fright and so you're uh, And our 1:14:02.479 --> 1:14:04.320 traps have a little transmitters on them, so if we 1:14:04.400 --> 1:14:08.400 have to, we can radio telemetry to find it. But 1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:11.479 usually if you just sort of follow the sign, you 1:14:11.560 --> 1:14:14.439 can find the animal pretty quickly and they're tangled up 1:14:14.479 --> 1:14:17.960 and they're um having the worst day of their life 1:14:18.000 --> 1:14:22.639 probably yeah. Yeah, And so we we work again really hard, 1:14:22.920 --> 1:14:27.800 just even with our body language and how we carry ourselves, um, 1:14:28.240 --> 1:14:31.600 to be as non threatening as we can be, but 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:37.040 also confident. You don't want to it sounds kind of 1:14:37.080 --> 1:14:40.120 out there, but your body language matters in how they're 1:14:40.120 --> 1:14:41.919 going to perceive you, and so you want to be confident, 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:46.200 but calm, you know, no big movements, certainly, no talking 1:14:46.320 --> 1:14:49.240 that sort of thing. Um, So keeping them as calm 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:53.519 as possible, and you just um, we get um are 1:14:53.600 --> 1:14:55.920 drugs pulled up and we use what's called a syringe 1:14:56.000 --> 1:14:57.880 pole and so it's basically a syringe on the end 1:14:57.880 --> 1:15:01.720 of a long pole so that you can uh you know, 1:15:01.840 --> 1:15:04.519 from a little bit of a distance administer the drug 1:15:06.200 --> 1:15:09.400 and uh yeah, wait for them to go to sleep, 1:15:09.479 --> 1:15:12.479 and then remove them from the trap and do a 1:15:12.560 --> 1:15:18.759 medical check and you know, get there their vitals recording 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:21.400 and start putting the collar on. When you guys get 1:15:21.479 --> 1:15:23.640 by catch doing that like a skunk or whatever, do 1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:25.439 you do you have a way you release it or 1:15:25.439 --> 1:15:28.600 do you do you have to drug as well. It 1:15:28.840 --> 1:15:33.320 depends most bycatch. I try to just release um. Skunks 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:36.240 are tricky, but I have found with them again, if 1:15:36.320 --> 1:15:40.880 you're really slow and calm, we hold up a charp 1:15:41.040 --> 1:15:44.680 in front of us and just slowly, calmly, if you 1:15:44.760 --> 1:15:47.439 can't walk up to the skunk. And then at the 1:15:47.560 --> 1:15:50.639 last second, this is where it gets kind of a rodeo. 1:15:50.720 --> 1:15:53.040 But you you throw the charp on it and then 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:55.479 grab it, and then somebody takes it off and they spray, 1:15:55.760 --> 1:15:57.960 and if you get any of it on you, it's 1:15:58.000 --> 1:16:01.200 like getting When you do the throw, he's gonna he's 1:16:01.200 --> 1:16:03.960 gonna call it. He's gonna yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And 1:16:04.160 --> 1:16:07.559 so you get oh. Man, I always say it smells 1:16:07.760 --> 1:16:11.160 like getting punched in the face. When it's that much, 1:16:12.680 --> 1:16:14.920 it's just the rest of your day. You just got 1:16:15.000 --> 1:16:18.120 a headache. And I stopped smelling it so much after 1:16:18.160 --> 1:16:20.360 a while, but I know other people could smell it on. 1:16:20.400 --> 1:16:23.720 It gives you a headache. Yeah, it's powerful. Yeah, it's 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:27.719 nothing like the sweet, pleasant smell of a road kill skunk. 1:16:27.840 --> 1:16:30.479 You just drive by it sixty and you go, oh, 1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:34.280 a little skunky today. Yeah, I got I got two 1:16:34.320 --> 1:16:37.479 ounces of it in a jar in my fridge right now. 1:16:38.160 --> 1:16:40.679 But it's in a jar in a vac sealed bag, 1:16:40.800 --> 1:16:44.400 which is in a vac sealed bag. Is it pure? Pure? 1:16:45.040 --> 1:16:47.920 Pulled it out with a syringe. Oh yeah, okay, And 1:16:47.960 --> 1:16:50.000 so you know, it's like it looks like a cartoon 1:16:50.120 --> 1:16:54.200 skunk spray. It's like bright green. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy looking. Yeah, 1:16:54.280 --> 1:16:58.760 well it's yeah, be careful with that. Yeah, I don't know. 1:16:58.800 --> 1:17:01.120 I'm can use it as a joke on someone. I 1:17:01.200 --> 1:17:03.880 thought about injecting it into the pholstery of someone's car, 1:17:05.960 --> 1:17:08.120 but yeah, most like a call, do you know, I 1:17:08.160 --> 1:17:13.000 don't know. There's a cool uh study done on breaking 1:17:13.040 --> 1:17:17.120 down skunk smell, like exactly why doesn't snake? And one 1:17:17.160 --> 1:17:22.120 of the interesting like chemical compounds um as as, like 1:17:22.240 --> 1:17:28.080 the sulfur um hydrogen bonds breakdown, they actually release more 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:31.680 smell and their water soluble. So the harder you try 1:17:31.720 --> 1:17:34.519 to wash something out, the more intense the smell gets. 1:17:35.600 --> 1:17:39.360 And the theory is is that is to remind whatever 1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:42.720 came in contact with the skunk that they do not 1:17:42.880 --> 1:17:45.080 want to come in contact with another skin's like less 1:17:45.120 --> 1:17:50.200 you forget ye yep. So it's it's a multiday process 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:55.240 for whoever comes in contact. But like eight different chemical 1:17:55.320 --> 1:17:58.640 compounds and two of which like very very rare on 1:17:58.760 --> 1:18:01.840 the planet. I want to get this when you when 1:18:01.880 --> 1:18:05.360 you approach it with the tart, you're you're holding up. 1:18:05.360 --> 1:18:07.240 So so if he takes a shot at you, Yeah, 1:18:07.720 --> 1:18:09.639 what's the farthest you've ever had him take a shot 1:18:09.680 --> 1:18:12.519 at you? Not very far? They don't I don't think 1:18:12.560 --> 1:18:14.720 they want to waste that that spray. Give it to 1:18:14.760 --> 1:18:18.880 me like feet, I don't know, maybe ten ft. Yeah, 1:18:19.280 --> 1:18:21.200 but you've never been in a situation where you've been 1:18:21.200 --> 1:18:23.439 able to like try to pin his tail down, because 1:18:23.479 --> 1:18:25.880 that's supposed to work, right, They got to lift their 1:18:25.920 --> 1:18:28.360 tail to spray, is what everybody says, all the old 1:18:28.439 --> 1:18:31.599 old man wisdom. I mean, have you talked to anybody 1:18:31.640 --> 1:18:34.280 that's actually done that, because I don't see you being 1:18:34.280 --> 1:18:36.320 able to get close enough to pin the tail down. 1:18:36.720 --> 1:18:38.040 And I mean when we sew the tarp on it, 1:18:38.080 --> 1:18:40.120 we're trying to it's kind of chaotic because then you 1:18:40.160 --> 1:18:42.320 can't see it, but you're trying to pin everything down. 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:44.479 But it's just it's just kind of it's just gonna 1:18:44.520 --> 1:18:48.639 go now, and like in fur trapper lore of old, 1:18:49.439 --> 1:18:51.519 it would be that if you could pull off heart 1:18:51.600 --> 1:18:54.719 shot with the twenty two, he's not going to spray, 1:18:54.840 --> 1:18:57.760 but everybody knows a brain shot he's gonna spray. But 1:18:57.920 --> 1:19:00.760 now guys use those like people use those big long 1:19:00.880 --> 1:19:05.960 poles and oh yeah, to try even to try to 1:19:06.080 --> 1:19:07.960 kill it, like damage Like people that are doing like 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:11.120 damage control work and stuff, they give it an injection 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:13.600 with a big long pole. I haven't seen that or 1:19:13.720 --> 1:19:17.560 done that. Yeah, it's dicey work, it is. Yeah, you 1:19:17.720 --> 1:19:19.800 gotta handle those guys with care. And then when you 1:19:19.920 --> 1:19:22.600 go home, Um, is your husband like you smell like 1:19:22.760 --> 1:19:25.320 us skunk? Yeah? I say you got you got a 1:19:25.320 --> 1:19:28.960 skunk today, didn't you. I'm pretty sure I go home 1:19:29.000 --> 1:19:30.840 smelling like all kinds of stuff because I've been living, 1:19:31.160 --> 1:19:34.760 you know, using lures and everything all day. So what's 1:19:34.800 --> 1:19:37.479 the most you ever walked in one day? Oh, I 1:19:37.560 --> 1:19:40.160 don't know how far. I don't really keep track of that. 1:19:40.240 --> 1:19:45.360 It's some pretty good tracks. Yeah, for work, Yeah, yeah, 1:19:46.080 --> 1:19:49.160 I don't know how far, especially doing wolf clusters and 1:19:49.800 --> 1:19:53.920 cougar clusters. You're hiking all over in the mountains, ma'am. 1:19:54.040 --> 1:19:59.840 Jealousy job. I like that job. UM. Okay, what's your 1:19:59.840 --> 1:20:05.640 new thing? Okay, so the new thing is UM is 1:20:05.840 --> 1:20:08.080 something we could be helpful with by promoting the business. 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:11.160 I don't know, I mean we're it's it's I don't 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:13.519 want to help you. I just don't know how well. 1:20:13.600 --> 1:20:15.439 I'll explain it what I'll explain what it is and 1:20:15.479 --> 1:20:18.000 then you can see. But it's UM. We're calling it 1:20:18.640 --> 1:20:22.400 Home Range Wildlife Research and it's a nonprofit that uh 1:20:23.080 --> 1:20:27.559 that we're starting, and it's UM going to be sort 1:20:27.600 --> 1:20:30.560 of three different prongs. So I'm in charge of the 1:20:30.760 --> 1:20:34.639 research components. So that will be just doing either research 1:20:34.760 --> 1:20:37.160 that we feel like it's important and want to do 1:20:38.080 --> 1:20:43.400 UM and we're really UM driven to do research is 1:20:43.400 --> 1:20:49.479 going to be applicable and is immediately uh needed, so 1:20:50.520 --> 1:20:54.439 UM not just sort of what's interesting but UM. So 1:20:54.560 --> 1:20:58.479 that's one component. Then a workshop component for for young 1:20:58.560 --> 1:21:02.439 biologists just field skills, because we have found over the years, 1:21:03.240 --> 1:21:06.640 you know, having UM wildlife texts come, a lot of 1:21:06.720 --> 1:21:09.880 them are maybe just fresh out of college and and 1:21:10.000 --> 1:21:12.280 maybe even grew up in the city and don't have 1:21:12.520 --> 1:21:14.840 those sort of basic technical skills that they need to 1:21:15.439 --> 1:21:19.479 a feel confident be be focused on collecting good, clean 1:21:19.600 --> 1:21:24.200 data and see aren't gonna be rolling for four wheelers 1:21:24.240 --> 1:21:30.960 and costing projects money. Um, So some workshops based around 1:21:31.000 --> 1:21:34.680 that and doing some you know, hopefully some tracking workshops 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:38.640 animal track and sign and just various skills that that 1:21:38.840 --> 1:21:41.760 people might want before they start heading into the field. 1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:44.840 And then a community science um field because we live 1:21:44.880 --> 1:21:47.639 in a place where we feel like if the community 1:21:47.720 --> 1:21:50.200 is invested in your research, you're going to have better outcomes. 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:53.240 But also we have a lot of um, you know, 1:21:54.400 --> 1:21:57.040 hardcore recreators in the area, and so I say there's 1:21:57.080 --> 1:22:01.040 somebody going out to um hike in the wilderness or whatever, 1:22:01.520 --> 1:22:03.320 and where we need a camera out there or something 1:22:03.560 --> 1:22:07.120 we can be using community science to that kind of 1:22:07.160 --> 1:22:10.639 community science. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And where were you guys 1:22:10.640 --> 1:22:12.160 out what's what's the name of the outfit? Going to 1:22:12.200 --> 1:22:15.400 be again Home Range Wildlife Research. Yeah, and you're going 1:22:15.439 --> 1:22:19.439 to operate out of where you're currently at Winthrop Winthrop Washington, 1:22:20.400 --> 1:22:25.040 and you'll start local there and then who knows what'll happen. Yeah, 1:22:25.120 --> 1:22:27.360 I imagine that will be local for for quite a 1:22:27.439 --> 1:22:29.640 while where we've all been working on that landscape for 1:22:30.400 --> 1:22:32.600 for a long time, and we're invested in it, and 1:22:32.720 --> 1:22:34.560 we've spent so much time in the field there that 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:39.720 UM it feels like that's a really good foundation for 1:22:40.400 --> 1:22:43.439 for our research because UM, I think there's a lot 1:22:43.520 --> 1:22:47.720 of value in having scientists that are good naturalists and 1:22:47.800 --> 1:22:52.400 that are out there UM and and noticing changes over 1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:55.640 time on the landscape and picking up those patterns of 1:22:56.040 --> 1:22:59.479 what's going on out there. When will you get started? UM? 1:22:59.680 --> 1:23:03.240 We are. We're still in an early phase of figuring 1:23:03.280 --> 1:23:06.760 out and and UM pulling together the nonprofits so the 1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:09.360 just the sort of structure of it UM. But we're 1:23:09.400 --> 1:23:12.840 all we're starting to write curriculum and write I'm working 1:23:12.840 --> 1:23:18.519 on a proposal for UM links in and Wildfire project UM. 1:23:18.720 --> 1:23:21.160 And then we've got a community science project that's going 1:23:21.200 --> 1:23:25.800 to launch this this summer looking at UM natural food 1:23:25.840 --> 1:23:31.240 availability for for bears coupled with UH how that the 1:23:31.720 --> 1:23:35.320 whether there's good natural food ability or not a season, 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:40.200 how that affects human bear interactions getting into trash stuff 1:23:40.200 --> 1:23:42.479 like that. That's cool. Yeah, and then you're gonna do 1:23:42.560 --> 1:23:44.000 that project I was talking about where you go and 1:23:44.080 --> 1:23:46.640 see if bobcats like to eat on gut piles and 1:23:46.720 --> 1:23:48.920 that's why you can't find them in early December, right, 1:23:49.439 --> 1:23:52.080 the importance of hunters the bobcats. Yeah, I won't test 1:23:52.200 --> 1:23:56.559 the hypothesis that you got to eat the organs quick. Yeah. Yeah, 1:23:57.439 --> 1:23:59.479 that's great. So with this new thing, are you gonna 1:23:59.520 --> 1:24:01.439 have are you to like have like a You'll you'll 1:24:01.439 --> 1:24:03.639 be a full time Yeah, you'll be a full time 1:24:03.680 --> 1:24:10.479 salaried person. Yep, that's the plan. Just took ten years. Yeah, 1:24:10.840 --> 1:24:15.600 here you are, ye arrived, hopefully almost forty and and 1:24:15.680 --> 1:24:19.280 you have some grant writing in your background. Yeah, yeah, 1:24:19.360 --> 1:24:22.640 we've all got Yeah, for sure that'll be Yeah. My 1:24:23.000 --> 1:24:25.160 question when I when I heard about this is how 1:24:25.280 --> 1:24:30.040 comfortable are you asking people for money? Yeah? Comfortable? No, 1:24:30.360 --> 1:24:33.800 not me, no, no no, but hopefully our board will 1:24:33.840 --> 1:24:36.240 be comfortable. You're gonna have a board. Yeah, you legally 1:24:36.280 --> 1:24:39.920 have to have a board as a nonprofit. Yeah. Yeah 1:24:40.920 --> 1:24:46.280 that's cool man. Yeah, that's great. Full time job, make 1:24:46.320 --> 1:24:49.559 your own job. That is the moral of the story, 1:24:49.600 --> 1:24:51.920 and that is I think what's going to be needing 1:24:52.000 --> 1:24:54.360 to happen for for wildlife Bilo just more and more 1:24:54.400 --> 1:24:58.720 because it's just it's the field is really flooded and 1:24:59.280 --> 1:25:02.080 so it's hard to get jobs, just from a competitive standpoint, 1:25:02.200 --> 1:25:08.120 and also, um, because there's so many people wanting to 1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:11.439 do that field work, there's um, well it's hard to 1:25:11.439 --> 1:25:16.160 get paid. Well, they'll do it for nothing, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 1:25:16.840 --> 1:25:20.080 I don't know if I mean, it's just pretty intriguing. Oh. 1:25:20.479 --> 1:25:23.240 The folks that I worked with on the Grizz study 1:25:23.240 --> 1:25:28.800 there in Idaho, it was just like they created their 1:25:28.840 --> 1:25:31.479 own jobs and then had to recreate their lifestyles in 1:25:31.640 --> 1:25:34.760 order to do those jobs. And it's yeah, it's it's 1:25:34.800 --> 1:25:39.240 a passion passion deal for sure. It's it's not a 1:25:39.600 --> 1:25:41.280 it's a tough way to make a living for sure. 1:25:41.439 --> 1:25:44.400 So it's not a meritocracy exactly. That's just what you 1:25:44.479 --> 1:25:46.800 said at the beginning. But it's not at all. You 1:25:46.880 --> 1:25:48.639 have to have you have to come from a family 1:25:48.680 --> 1:25:51.680 with money, don't you, Yeah, basically, or just oh to 1:25:51.760 --> 1:25:54.400 be able to be able to that's interesting points can't 1:25:54.439 --> 1:25:57.160 do that. Yeah, it's it's I think it's being talked 1:25:57.200 --> 1:25:59.920 about more ever, and it's just your podcast is rich, 1:26:00.040 --> 1:26:05.880 are they? I'm assuming not. I know a lot of 1:26:05.920 --> 1:26:08.519 people who's but I mean, you know, my brothers included, 1:26:08.640 --> 1:26:11.719 I know a lot of people who are. We're certainly 1:26:11.760 --> 1:26:15.479 not rich who slugged it out and pulled it off. 1:26:16.200 --> 1:26:19.360 But it's like becoming a writer, you gotta commit yourself 1:26:19.439 --> 1:26:21.679 to spending a bunch of years living below the pot 1:26:21.720 --> 1:26:24.680 with like living below the poverty line and not be 1:26:24.800 --> 1:26:28.960 seducted by a plan B. So yeah, I think that 1:26:29.120 --> 1:26:31.400 that's a gravy way to do it. I had someone 1:26:31.439 --> 1:26:33.920 explained to me one time that like to be an 1:26:33.960 --> 1:26:38.960 Olympic skier. They're saying, it's it's in large measure, it's 1:26:39.000 --> 1:26:42.439 a function of your family's finances because either can ski 1:26:42.560 --> 1:26:44.720 six months a year, or you go live in New 1:26:44.800 --> 1:26:46.519 Zealand and you ski twelve months a year, And the 1:26:46.560 --> 1:26:49.320 people that can ski twelve months a year have a 1:26:49.439 --> 1:26:50.960 leg up on the people of the ski six and 1:26:51.040 --> 1:26:53.200 the people that do that are people from wealthy families. 1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:57.280 And it's undeniable. But I mean, I don't want to like, 1:26:57.320 --> 1:26:59.920 I would hate to say that point and then discredit people, 1:27:00.200 --> 1:27:03.400 many people that I know personally that slugged it out 1:27:04.640 --> 1:27:06.639 and tell us about your brother. I missed that part. 1:27:06.800 --> 1:27:10.280 You said something about your brother, just that they most 1:27:10.320 --> 1:27:12.960 certainly were not coming from a wealthy background, and and 1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:17.479 did it you know, starting out doing like creal surveys 1:27:18.960 --> 1:27:24.440 for a dollar an hour whatever. Yeah, and then eventually 1:27:24.680 --> 1:27:30.040 through like sheer will, sheer force of will got there, 1:27:30.320 --> 1:27:34.200 but it takes forever. Yeah. Yeah, and so that's that's 1:27:34.240 --> 1:27:36.720 kind of what is happening in wildlife for sure, And 1:27:36.800 --> 1:27:40.720 there are definitely people that slug it out, but um 1:27:41.120 --> 1:27:42.920 it does leave a lot of people out and we're 1:27:42.960 --> 1:27:45.799 missing out on on attracting the best and the brightest. 1:27:45.960 --> 1:27:48.240 So do you think you're gonna approach this from a 1:27:48.479 --> 1:27:53.920 project standpoint or you're just going to try to have 1:27:56.200 --> 1:28:01.400 a fund that people can apply for grants to. UM. 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:06.639 I think we'll do some just general fundraising to start out, 1:28:07.040 --> 1:28:10.000 especially UM like we need to raise money to UM, 1:28:10.240 --> 1:28:12.519 you know, just start up costs, that sort of thing. 1:28:13.040 --> 1:28:17.080 But then definitely for different projects, be applying for different 1:28:17.280 --> 1:28:22.719 specific grants. Identify a project, try to rally some folks 1:28:22.760 --> 1:28:25.800 around it. Yeah, and then you guys can use your 1:28:25.960 --> 1:28:29.559 expertise to say why this is exactly so let project 1:28:29.600 --> 1:28:32.400 worth preson, right, So just sort of like for the 1:28:32.479 --> 1:28:37.639 benefit of all mankind, yeah, exactly, and in the wildlife, Yeah, 1:28:38.800 --> 1:28:42.040 I like it. Yeah, best of luck man, thank you. 1:28:43.240 --> 1:28:45.439 Let's know, we'd be helpful. I don't know what we 1:28:45.560 --> 1:28:49.880 do if something comes up. All right, exactly, Okay, we're 1:28:49.920 --> 1:28:54.280 gonna talk about Foxes for minutes. Everybody talk about Fox, Fox, Foxes, Fox, 1:28:54.360 --> 1:28:57.120 and I okay, get uh, Kathy, give us you can 1:28:57.160 --> 1:28:59.880 you give us like a kind of your bio, a 1:29:00.160 --> 1:29:03.920 quick bio. Sure. I was one of those who tried 1:29:03.960 --> 1:29:06.320 to leg it out. I guess. I have my undergraduate 1:29:06.360 --> 1:29:11.719 degrees from Missoula and my doctorate in biology from Montana 1:29:11.800 --> 1:29:14.320 State University. Here I was a part granger in a 1:29:14.320 --> 1:29:19.400 wildland firefighter for many many years did firefighting. Yeah, long time, 1:29:20.000 --> 1:29:22.080 and even after I finished my doctorate, I was on 1:29:22.160 --> 1:29:28.720 the lines hard to give it up, like like seasonal firefighting. Yes, absolutely, 1:29:29.960 --> 1:29:35.920 And I was just living by myself, trying to use 1:29:36.040 --> 1:29:39.519 my PhD, trying to find one of those just piles 1:29:39.560 --> 1:29:42.880 of job applications to fill out for getting a university position. 1:29:42.960 --> 1:29:45.320 I had started at the University of Montana, but it 1:29:45.479 --> 1:29:48.040 was a part time. It was a contract, you know, 1:29:48.120 --> 1:29:49.720 like a post doc. In fact, it might have been 1:29:49.720 --> 1:29:51.719 called a post doc, but they called me it should 1:29:51.720 --> 1:29:53.160 have been called a post doc. I guess they called 1:29:53.160 --> 1:29:57.000 me an assistant professor. And I was looking for professor ships. 1:29:57.040 --> 1:30:00.280 And then five did you do graduate work in bald eagles? Yeah? 1:30:00.320 --> 1:30:02.040 I did. My doctor was in bald egos. That's right. 1:30:02.120 --> 1:30:07.719 What at looking at? So throughout this term evolutionarily significant units, 1:30:07.880 --> 1:30:11.439 which is the scientific term for species, what we casually 1:30:11.520 --> 1:30:16.960 call species, but species is right, it's not a dynamic process. 1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:22.120 Species are constantly changing, their hybridizing, and they're moving, they're becoming. 1:30:22.760 --> 1:30:24.880 They're on a pathway, they're on an evolution nine pathway. 1:30:24.920 --> 1:30:28.519 So technically they're The Endangered Species Act is about the 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:33.360 species are defined in that Act as evolutionarily significant units. 1:30:33.439 --> 1:30:36.439 But nobody wanted to call the Act anything that had 1:30:36.439 --> 1:30:39.880 the word evolution in it for obvious reasons. Right, all 1:30:40.160 --> 1:30:43.520 led up, rowled up even today, and also it sounds complicated, 1:30:44.080 --> 1:30:48.960 but the evolutionary significant unit is how species are defined 1:30:48.960 --> 1:30:52.120 by scientists. So it's looking at the pathways of the 1:30:52.160 --> 1:30:55.200 bald eagles and is there just one species of bald 1:30:55.240 --> 1:30:57.560 eagles in North America? And no, of course there's not. 1:30:57.720 --> 1:31:00.759 Because they mate according to size, so you can figure 1:31:00.760 --> 1:31:02.640 and you know that a female won't mate with a 1:31:02.720 --> 1:31:04.960 larger male. I'm looking at Carmen because she knows this, 1:31:05.080 --> 1:31:08.960 but maybe you know. I've heard that, but I've never 1:31:09.040 --> 1:31:14.439 understood the signal males from Alaska, so a female and 1:31:14.640 --> 1:31:19.479 smaller in the south West like Arizona. So a female 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:22.400 from Arizona is not going to be she doesn't have 1:31:22.479 --> 1:31:25.360 the opportunity to mate everywhere in North America because those 1:31:25.400 --> 1:31:27.400 boys up north are going to be larger than her, 1:31:27.439 --> 1:31:29.320 and she will not mate with a larger male. So 1:31:29.479 --> 1:31:31.799 they are on a separate pathway. Of course, the size, 1:31:31.880 --> 1:31:34.960 So size does make a difference. You guys already knew that, 1:31:35.120 --> 1:31:37.040 but we've been telling you it doesn't. But it does. 1:31:37.160 --> 1:31:40.719 And so females absolutely choose their mates based on size. 1:31:40.760 --> 1:31:45.760 And if the sizes are separating distinctively, then then yeah, 1:31:45.800 --> 1:31:49.120 there's a point where they crossed, like a threshold of incompatibility, correct, 1:31:49.320 --> 1:31:52.000 and then they will they will eventually. Then eventually, if 1:31:52.000 --> 1:31:53.840 you took one from Arizona, if you took a female 1:31:53.840 --> 1:31:56.240 from Arizona and put her in Southeast Alaska, she might 1:31:56.320 --> 1:32:00.599 just she might never reproduce. Yeah, that's right, just Aaron, huh, 1:32:01.040 --> 1:32:03.360 just because the size differences, she's not gonna make Yep, 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:05.920 that's right, that's right, that's right. So she doesn't want to. 1:32:05.960 --> 1:32:08.320 You notice that's true of all the hawks. You see 1:32:08.360 --> 1:32:09.960 hawks all the time here. You're probably I don't know, 1:32:10.200 --> 1:32:12.559 I didn't know, you didn't haven't noticed the size differences. 1:32:12.680 --> 1:32:16.760 So it's like falcons. You've noticed that the female is 1:32:16.880 --> 1:32:18.479 much bigger than the male. And then when you start 1:32:18.520 --> 1:32:21.519 looking at hawks, like red tails of females bigger but 1:32:21.640 --> 1:32:23.599 not much bigger, and eagles so a little bit closer. 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:27.200 But the more ferocious of a hunter they are as 1:32:27.280 --> 1:32:31.879 a bird of prey, the greater the differences size difference 1:32:31.920 --> 1:32:34.920 between the sexes. We need your hypothesis on that because 1:32:35.400 --> 1:32:37.679 scientists don't really know the reason for that, and there's 1:32:37.680 --> 1:32:42.120 a lot of hypotheses. But eagles are understand that. So 1:32:42.200 --> 1:32:45.320 eagles are a little bit probably the more ferocious. Certain 1:32:45.520 --> 1:32:48.560 So what's the most ferocious bird of prey that you 1:32:48.640 --> 1:32:50.960 can think of? The ones that really go after meat 1:32:51.160 --> 1:32:55.719 versus just dead stuff on, yes, exactly, the falcons, they're 1:32:55.800 --> 1:32:58.479 just only going to eat meat, live things, fast things, 1:32:58.600 --> 1:33:03.479 big things. So golden eagles, falcons, they have a huge 1:33:04.320 --> 1:33:08.200 size dimorphism diameting two and morph meaning size. So there's 1:33:08.240 --> 1:33:10.200 two different sizes, one for the males and one for 1:33:10.240 --> 1:33:14.240 the females. Humans are dimorphic. Males are bigger than females. 1:33:14.920 --> 1:33:18.040 Because humans, the males are bigger than females, and because 1:33:18.120 --> 1:33:21.000 scientists tend to be humans. We look at the world 1:33:21.200 --> 1:33:24.400 human centric, and when animals have the opposite, so that 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:26.720 the females are bigger than the males, we call that 1:33:26.920 --> 1:33:32.080 reverse dimorphism. So the bird of prey have a reverse 1:33:32.520 --> 1:33:36.439 sexual dimorphism. Females are bigger than the males. In humans, 1:33:36.520 --> 1:33:39.280 males are beta than Have you ever read that Neanderthals 1:33:39.320 --> 1:33:42.960 didn't have sexual dimorphs as much sexual dimorphisms as we did, 1:33:43.600 --> 1:33:46.960 that they were like, oh I didn't. But I am 1:33:47.360 --> 1:33:53.520 reading and shocked at how much we are prejudiced against Neanderthals. 1:33:53.600 --> 1:33:56.360 And you know there was a time they were just 1:33:56.920 --> 1:33:59.800 I mean just data just came out a week ago 1:34:00.080 --> 1:34:02.880 showing that all those things we said about them not 1:34:03.160 --> 1:34:05.599 engaging in art and not having a sense of a statics, 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:08.599 that's all just crap. I joked, We're gonna someday soon 1:34:08.680 --> 1:34:12.000 find out that they had laptops. They keep getting like, 1:34:12.360 --> 1:34:14.360 they keep getting it, they keep getting better and better 1:34:14.479 --> 1:34:18.880 every every day. It's like out Neanderthals had bicycles. It's 1:34:18.920 --> 1:34:20.760 like every day. It's like, oh they were into art, 1:34:20.840 --> 1:34:24.000 Oh they were poets. Yeah right, you are right, but 1:34:24.080 --> 1:34:27.680 they they hung out in Europe for six hundred thousand years. Man, 1:34:27.800 --> 1:34:31.960 like everybody's like older dumb. It's like, dude, they had 1:34:32.000 --> 1:34:38.640 a long run. They were so diverse. Prejudice against off 1:34:38.680 --> 1:34:43.080 the land in every way imaginable. That's right. So clam 1:34:43.240 --> 1:34:47.599 diving exactly, the Neanderthals with swimmers here, that's how much 1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:51.600 time they spent the really advanced. Just because they're extinct 1:34:51.720 --> 1:34:54.200 doesn't mean I mean, I'm totally with you. I'm glad 1:34:54.280 --> 1:34:56.439 you think that, because you're right that people thought they 1:34:56.479 --> 1:34:59.120 were just a dumb mass caveman because they're Neanderthals, and 1:34:59.200 --> 1:35:02.439 we use it as an insult, but it's really they 1:35:02.760 --> 1:35:07.479 like European people, but Americans maybe, I know my European 1:35:07.520 --> 1:35:10.519 graduate students didn't think Neandertal was an insult, especially if 1:35:10.520 --> 1:35:13.760 they had more respect for him. Well, because they're named 1:35:13.760 --> 1:35:16.080 after the neander Valley, so that's where the first and 1:35:16.120 --> 1:35:17.920 they were kicking around in the same round. To them, 1:35:18.000 --> 1:35:21.360 it was like it was like their ancestors. Yeah, yeah, 1:35:21.600 --> 1:35:24.360 that's right. To get back to the bird thing a 1:35:24.360 --> 1:35:27.320 little bit because it's cool. I want your hypothesis Sundays. 1:35:27.360 --> 1:35:31.840 I have one, but I'll make sure i'm getting it right. Um, Okay, 1:35:32.280 --> 1:35:34.040 as you go up, So if you go look at 1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:37.800 what's in't that family? That would be like a like 1:35:37.960 --> 1:35:42.280 a not for give me a not. Eagles are the 1:35:42.439 --> 1:35:46.120 least ferocious ones. They can survive just scavenging technical I mean, 1:35:46.200 --> 1:35:48.160 just hang out at the local look at the look 1:35:48.160 --> 1:35:49.920 at the salmon that they eat. I mean they're not 1:35:50.000 --> 1:35:52.439 really fishing like an osprey very much. I mean they're 1:35:52.560 --> 1:35:55.040 they're getting the salmon that are sort of slow moving 1:35:55.200 --> 1:35:58.479 dead after they've already spawned their bright red they're on 1:35:58.560 --> 1:36:00.960 the surface. So they're not for as hunters, so they 1:36:01.040 --> 1:36:06.320 have less sexual Maybe define like ferocious because it seems 1:36:06.320 --> 1:36:08.880 like it's it's no no, But define it as like 1:36:09.240 --> 1:36:11.680 as the way you're using it's kind of coming out 1:36:11.760 --> 1:36:15.360 like as in the more energy they'll expand to get food. Right, Oh, 1:36:16.360 --> 1:36:19.679 I don't know about energy, but I mean they're taking 1:36:19.800 --> 1:36:25.560 the most difficult targets. So peregrine and eagles are real hunters. Technically, 1:36:25.600 --> 1:36:28.360 a bald eagle as a scavenger, they don't even have 1:36:28.560 --> 1:36:32.640 to physiologically, they're not obligated by their genetics or by 1:36:32.680 --> 1:36:35.439 their physiology to hunt. They can just like you did. 1:36:35.479 --> 1:36:37.640 You say, hang out at the dump. That's right. They 1:36:37.680 --> 1:36:39.839 can hang out at the sitting next to the stream 1:36:39.880 --> 1:36:43.800 and eat the dead salmon. That's right. Is going to 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:46.000 catch live fish, Yeah, and then they wait till the 1:36:46.040 --> 1:36:48.120 osprey brings it to its nest, and then the bald 1:36:48.120 --> 1:36:51.040 eagle steals it from the osprey nest when it's already dead. 1:36:51.200 --> 1:36:54.559 That's what. Yeah, you know, Ben Franklin didn't like eagles 1:36:55.120 --> 1:36:58.800 because these guys are really good naturalist. He knew. I 1:36:58.920 --> 1:37:01.720 read the letter that he wrote to his daughter. I 1:37:01.840 --> 1:37:03.599 wrote to the museum there and asked him if they 1:37:03.600 --> 1:37:05.080 would send me a copy of because I was tired 1:37:05.120 --> 1:37:06.840 of just hearing the rumors about it, and I wanted 1:37:06.880 --> 1:37:10.120 to read the whole thing, not take it out of context. Yeah. 1:37:10.160 --> 1:37:14.240 So he was kind of joking, but he was also serious. 1:37:14.360 --> 1:37:16.280 I mean, he was sort of joking about the turkey, 1:37:16.360 --> 1:37:19.920 but he he wanted he did believe, and he knew 1:37:21.000 --> 1:37:24.080 that bald eagle's scavengers. I mean, he knew that although 1:37:24.080 --> 1:37:27.360 it was beautiful, it was not a bird that was 1:37:27.479 --> 1:37:30.160 really capable of hunting. It wasn't really a bird that 1:37:30.920 --> 1:37:33.439 if we wanted to use a symbol of a really 1:37:33.560 --> 1:37:36.800 fierce nation of people, it was a good symbol if 1:37:36.840 --> 1:37:39.320 you were going to like head people across to the 1:37:39.479 --> 1:37:42.639 west Land that you didn't own but belonged to Native 1:37:42.640 --> 1:37:45.639 American nations and you were going to steal their land, 1:37:46.400 --> 1:37:49.800 then the bald eagle was a great, great symbol for that. 1:37:50.600 --> 1:37:52.640 And that's actually what the I sis did, right, So 1:37:52.760 --> 1:37:54.720 bald eagle ended up being good, but they didn't want 1:37:54.760 --> 1:37:56.360 it to be that. They thought it was going to 1:37:56.439 --> 1:37:59.880 be like the big fierce hunter, the noble. It's an 1:38:00.040 --> 1:38:04.400 real noble. Old eagles are, I guess more noble you've 1:38:04.439 --> 1:38:06.439 ever tried to mess with one. I think bald eagles 1:38:06.520 --> 1:38:08.720 got a lot of their most recent cache because they 1:38:08.800 --> 1:38:10.920 were it was for such a long time, it was 1:38:11.040 --> 1:38:13.840 rare to see one. And I think that's gonna wear 1:38:13.920 --> 1:38:17.160 off now. And I think that you know, because growing 1:38:17.240 --> 1:38:20.160 up and be like you know, so it's so sorry, 1:38:21.280 --> 1:38:25.360 it's like tree right there every day for the last 1:38:25.479 --> 1:38:27.519 what ten twenty years? Yeah, I think that it's like 1:38:27.640 --> 1:38:30.920 it's cache. It's cache will be diminished by its success. 1:38:31.040 --> 1:38:35.360 There's a bald eagle that lives essentially right here, right 1:38:35.400 --> 1:38:39.280 here at the office. Like it goes from. We have 1:38:39.400 --> 1:38:42.679 a little cut hay field here just to the west 1:38:42.760 --> 1:38:45.479 of US, and there's some power poles right there, and 1:38:45.600 --> 1:38:47.599 it'll sit on those power poles. And then I'll jump 1:38:47.640 --> 1:38:51.080 across to the north side of the interstate and sit 1:38:51.240 --> 1:38:56.080 right there too. Yeah, it's I would assume, yeah, it keeps, 1:38:56.320 --> 1:38:58.560 but that you know, the speaking of their caches. So 1:38:58.720 --> 1:39:01.479 in the seventies when they got covered by DDT, the 1:39:01.560 --> 1:39:04.160 United States and a lot of nonprofits, they spent so 1:39:04.320 --> 1:39:08.720 much money. They're so trying to help the bird recuperate. 1:39:08.800 --> 1:39:11.360 There are so many graduate students in this country that 1:39:11.680 --> 1:39:13.800 you know, we're just like this huge club. We belong 1:39:13.880 --> 1:39:15.840 to people who got their doctor. It's working on bald 1:39:15.880 --> 1:39:19.720 eagle because endless a pot of money to work on 1:39:19.920 --> 1:39:23.240 bald eagles endless, and the osprey got like nothing, and 1:39:23.280 --> 1:39:25.880 they ended up recovering faster anyway. I mean, the the 1:39:26.000 --> 1:39:29.920 osprey is just really a well suited bird for this country. 1:39:30.000 --> 1:39:32.400 I mean, they're amazing fisherman. I mean, they are just 1:39:32.680 --> 1:39:37.719 amazing fishermen. They're talented birds, and they have really great 1:39:37.800 --> 1:39:40.599 common sense. I mean they don't waste their time fighting 1:39:41.000 --> 1:39:43.519 with a big a bird that's much bigger than them. 1:39:43.800 --> 1:39:46.760 If the bald eago wants the fish, baldigo can get 1:39:46.760 --> 1:39:48.639 the fish. The ospity just goes and gets another fish. 1:39:48.880 --> 1:39:51.439 I mean, it's easier to just go there. Just that talented, 1:39:51.720 --> 1:39:54.400 they'll just go get another fish rather than fight over 1:39:55.120 --> 1:39:57.680 Like you see all the birds fighting at carcasses, but 1:39:57.800 --> 1:40:00.000 osprey don't hang out of carcasses. They're like their own 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:02.120 the ones that fish that well, So they just fish. 1:40:02.360 --> 1:40:05.080 They've done really really well in this country, and and 1:40:05.240 --> 1:40:08.800 they don't eat trash or scavenge like and they have 1:40:09.280 --> 1:40:14.719 high sexual dimorphism or how Yeah, they have a degree 1:40:14.720 --> 1:40:19.400 of sexual dimorphism. That's right, but it eagles still will have. Uh. 1:40:20.280 --> 1:40:22.960 I think eagles have a little bit more. Even osprea 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:26.400 are only eating fish of course, and not chasing down mammals. 1:40:26.479 --> 1:40:28.760 So the ones that are chasing down mammals and big 1:40:28.840 --> 1:40:31.160 mammals and golden eagle will take a deer. I mean, 1:40:31.200 --> 1:40:34.240 you've certainly seen them chasing after I've seen them chasing 1:40:34.320 --> 1:40:37.200 after deer. They chase me, and but I'm not quite 1:40:37.240 --> 1:40:41.160 as all the time they hate me um, So they 1:40:41.240 --> 1:40:43.439 have a lot of sexual dimorphism. But you never noticed 1:40:43.479 --> 1:40:46.040 that the females were always bigger than the males. I've 1:40:46.120 --> 1:40:48.880 heard that, but no, I haven't noticed. And the first 1:40:49.360 --> 1:40:50.920 I think, if I was looking at him in a nest, 1:40:50.920 --> 1:40:52.240 I wouldn't be able to tell you who is who. 1:40:52.920 --> 1:40:55.800 Probably my problem. But because they don't have they don't 1:40:55.840 --> 1:40:59.760 have the remarkable differences in coloration that like most birds 1:40:59.760 --> 1:41:01.800 would you most birds that you know that there's a 1:41:01.840 --> 1:41:04.320 male and females because they have different colors and they're 1:41:04.320 --> 1:41:06.920 the same size. So it's good. You're looking at some 1:41:07.040 --> 1:41:10.320 English sparrow eating your crumbs from your scone underneath the 1:41:10.360 --> 1:41:13.120 table at the cafe or whatever. He's got a big 1:41:13.160 --> 1:41:16.320 black throat patch. You're like, that's the male. But but 1:41:16.360 --> 1:41:18.720 I'm not looking at size, right, because they're just looking 1:41:18.720 --> 1:41:21.280 at coloration at tweet birds are pretty much like the 1:41:21.360 --> 1:41:24.200 most extreme version being like a pheasant, right, like everybody 1:41:24.240 --> 1:41:25.840 on the planet can tell you a male peasant from 1:41:25.920 --> 1:41:29.000 female peasant, well by coloration. If you're hunting at least, 1:41:29.160 --> 1:41:31.479 we hope you know that. You know what I'm saying. 1:41:31.520 --> 1:41:34.080 It's like it's not color. That's true. I hadn't. I've 1:41:34.120 --> 1:41:36.600 forgotten that because because I don't spend a lot of 1:41:36.640 --> 1:41:39.000 time looking at tweete birds, because there's so many hawks 1:41:39.040 --> 1:41:40.519 where I live, and there's not a lot of little 1:41:40.560 --> 1:41:43.040 birds around very long. But blue birds come in. But 1:41:43.120 --> 1:41:45.519 then the castrels clean them up boom boom boom instantly, 1:41:45.680 --> 1:41:48.759 which is so much fun to watch. Oh yeah, incredib 1:41:48.800 --> 1:41:52.200 castals are so amazing, aren't they. Yeah? Yeah, But I 1:41:52.240 --> 1:41:54.639 don't put out bird feeders or anything to attract birds 1:41:54.680 --> 1:41:56.360 to come there, so that because you just learn them 1:41:56.360 --> 1:42:01.479 into their desks, learn them into their tractions. You know. 1:42:01.760 --> 1:42:06.719 I gotta email the other week talking about big bird seed, 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:10.320 like you know, like big pharma and how big bird 1:42:10.439 --> 1:42:15.240 seed big the big birds seeds in conjunction with Autobahn 1:42:16.200 --> 1:42:21.000 to keep the perpetuation of feeding birds out there, even 1:42:21.040 --> 1:42:29.040 though it's it's providing this endless death cycle. Don't even 1:42:29.760 --> 1:42:32.240 Bozeman anymore. You must know that even when I was 1:42:32.240 --> 1:42:35.719 a grad student here we get a great what I'm saying, 1:42:35.800 --> 1:42:37.479 but I get a lot of value. We have a 1:42:37.520 --> 1:42:39.880 little bird, We have a modest little bird feeder way 1:42:40.000 --> 1:42:42.640 high up in the air, so it's not adding to 1:42:42.680 --> 1:42:49.160 the bear problem. And whatever in My children get a 1:42:49.240 --> 1:42:52.080 tremendous amount of We get a lot of education opportunities. 1:42:52.240 --> 1:42:55.800 We keep a running list. We keep a running list 1:42:55.840 --> 1:42:58.240 that we constantly update of what we see in our yard, 1:42:58.439 --> 1:43:01.519 see or here from our yard. So there's things on 1:43:01.600 --> 1:43:03.000 the list that we've never seen what we heard it 1:43:03.040 --> 1:43:05.840 from the yard. And I'll give up my bird feeder 1:43:05.840 --> 1:43:08.960 when they pry it for my cold had hands change. 1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:12.920 So this winter the modest little bird feeder. You look 1:43:12.960 --> 1:43:16.479 at your modest little bird feeder, and you can tell me, 1:43:16.800 --> 1:43:20.000 or you can tell Carmen about the hawks that should 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:22.760 be in Florida for the winter but decided not to 1:43:22.920 --> 1:43:25.760 go because they're hanging out at your bird feet. Are 1:43:26.040 --> 1:43:28.160 they're not at my bird feeder? Are you sure you're 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:30.280 not seeing red tails that didn't migrate, Well, they're on 1:43:30.360 --> 1:43:32.280 my list, but that's not what they're doing. They're riding 1:43:32.320 --> 1:43:34.280 the thermals on the hill behin they're supposed to have 1:43:34.400 --> 1:43:37.479 migrated though. Well, I can't tell you that they they're 1:43:37.520 --> 1:43:39.760 in the winter. I just know around my list. If 1:43:39.760 --> 1:43:42.639 the list is going to get which will be fun. 1:43:42.680 --> 1:43:44.160 You want to set up a science study. I got 1:43:44.240 --> 1:43:47.200 a science study for you. I'll pull my bird feeder 1:43:47.240 --> 1:43:49.439 down and you tell me that that caused birds the leaf. 1:43:51.880 --> 1:43:54.040 It's just like, like it's a lot of value. Very modest, 1:43:54.040 --> 1:43:56.400 little high upbird feeder. Um. I think there's a lot 1:43:56.439 --> 1:43:59.240 of value for the kids, just as them to the list. 1:43:59.520 --> 1:44:02.400 I have problem with people feeding birds, But what's funny 1:44:02.600 --> 1:44:05.840 is that everybody used to feed birds a long time ago, 1:44:06.240 --> 1:44:09.240 and put a little food out for foxes and things too. 1:44:09.320 --> 1:44:13.880 It suddenly became like we're not supposed to be feeding animals, 1:44:14.000 --> 1:44:16.200 and the birds are the last ones, right. I mean, 1:44:16.240 --> 1:44:19.200 everybody like a fed bear is a dead bear. And yeah, 1:44:19.240 --> 1:44:21.280 they just say that mostly because it rhymes, but I 1:44:21.400 --> 1:44:23.639 think maybe they also think you shouldn't be feeding bears. 1:44:24.200 --> 1:44:26.160 There's a limit to that though. I mean, obviously, if 1:44:26.200 --> 1:44:28.400 you live in the middle of nowhere and there's not 1:44:28.560 --> 1:44:30.680 any other houses around you, what different I mean for 1:44:30.720 --> 1:44:32.840 a hundred miles or bears aren't going to go more 1:44:32.880 --> 1:44:35.519 than twenty five. Does it really matter if you let 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:38.120 bears eat food on your property? Probably not. But if 1:44:38.120 --> 1:44:41.040 you're in Yellowstone National Park at a campground, you don't 1:44:41.080 --> 1:44:44.679 want bears coming around where there's food, so you can't 1:44:44.720 --> 1:44:48.200 really be attracting bears at a campground. It's trouble, but 1:44:48.320 --> 1:44:50.840 it depends on It's a very individual thing. But you 1:44:50.960 --> 1:44:53.120 talk to your grandma and I bet that generation they 1:44:53.240 --> 1:44:55.560 used to feed squirrels and stuff like that and chipmunks. 1:44:55.640 --> 1:44:58.400 And I think in England you're not even supposed to 1:44:58.439 --> 1:45:00.920 feed birds anymore. I'm pretty or about that. I think 1:45:00.960 --> 1:45:03.439 I read that in Hella McDonald's new book Vesper Flights, 1:45:03.479 --> 1:45:07.120 and so, yeah, they're coming for your bird feeder. They 1:45:07.160 --> 1:45:11.679 are coming for that. Until they finished meeting my thought. 1:45:11.680 --> 1:45:13.519 I don't know if you heard. It's modest. It's a modest. 1:45:15.200 --> 1:45:18.720 It was way up high. Feeding animals is not in 1:45:18.920 --> 1:45:22.439 vogue for sure, But it seems like the stuff that 1:45:22.560 --> 1:45:26.240 makes the paper are the folks that have gone that 1:45:26.320 --> 1:45:28.080 are making up for a lot of their neighbors not 1:45:28.240 --> 1:45:32.120 feeding right, Like some lady in Florida was getting like 1:45:32.280 --> 1:45:36.200 truckloads of Costco chickens to feed alligators in her back 1:45:37.200 --> 1:45:41.559 and stuff and barrels of feed. You know, we recently 1:45:41.600 --> 1:45:43.200 had on our website. I don't know if you've seen it. 1:45:43.600 --> 1:45:48.160 Um it's really something. There's a white tail fawn swimming. 1:45:48.960 --> 1:45:51.360 He's got himself in a lake. Some hunters the sea wall, 1:45:52.320 --> 1:45:54.080 so it's like the fawns out and you can't get 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:55.640 up on the beach because there's a sea wall, and 1:45:55.720 --> 1:45:59.120 so he's swimming parallel to the sea wall. And a 1:45:59.200 --> 1:46:04.960 bald eagle combs down and very like, very deliberately, like 1:46:05.200 --> 1:46:07.639 it's done. It knew what it was doing. It comes 1:46:07.680 --> 1:46:09.680 down and lands on its head and drowns that thing. 1:46:10.520 --> 1:46:14.880 I mean, it knew it wasn't sitting there and it 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:18.000 happened to drown. It came down and drowned that fat 1:46:18.120 --> 1:46:19.560 and then drug it up on the beach and ate it. 1:46:20.320 --> 1:46:23.360 That's interesting. It was really interesting and definitely not saying like, oh, 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:27.240 that's very normal, but it was very deliberate in it, 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:29.639 kind of like it knew that it was drowning something. Yeah, 1:46:30.120 --> 1:46:31.479 and I knew you were going to say it sat 1:46:31.520 --> 1:46:33.639 on its head. So I do think it's pretty expected 1:46:33.680 --> 1:46:36.200 for a because they're large birds and they throw their 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:38.840 weight around. Think about again and think about a pagrine falcon. 1:46:39.040 --> 1:46:42.000 They're relatively small compared to a bald eagle, and they 1:46:42.080 --> 1:46:45.160 don't throw their weight around. They have great eyesight, they're talented. 1:46:45.280 --> 1:46:49.680 They're fast, Prairie falcon, nothing's faster, but throwing the weight 1:46:49.720 --> 1:46:53.639 around thing fits perfectly with your fierceness. They're not fierce, 1:46:53.760 --> 1:46:57.120 they're just they're slow. Their eyesight isn't as good as 1:46:57.160 --> 1:47:00.960 a foul. Yeah, paragan foul guns are fierce. Like that 1:47:01.120 --> 1:47:04.599 added mass when they do the steep or the stoop, 1:47:04.800 --> 1:47:06.360 you know where they drop out of this guy on 1:47:06.439 --> 1:47:09.400 their victim. That's got to be tremendous. And you think 1:47:09.439 --> 1:47:11.600 about it like hunting, So you hunt if are you 1:47:11.680 --> 1:47:14.040 going to use are you going to go for knockdown power? 1:47:14.160 --> 1:47:16.439 If let's say you've got a two seventy, are you 1:47:16.479 --> 1:47:18.320 going to go for knockdown power and put like one 1:47:18.400 --> 1:47:20.479 eighty grain white in? Or you're gonna go I'm going 1:47:20.560 --> 1:47:22.479 to get something. Maybe it's not legal to buy it, 1:47:22.520 --> 1:47:23.840 but you're going to load your own. And you know 1:47:24.040 --> 1:47:25.639 that you're a straight shooter, and you know that you're 1:47:25.640 --> 1:47:27.360 a great shot. You know that it's going to be 1:47:27.439 --> 1:47:30.800 a long shot, so low down to like one grain 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:32.360 weight so it doesn't kick the hell out of you 1:47:32.439 --> 1:47:38.000 when you shoot. That's what I mean by mass, but weight, 1:47:38.280 --> 1:47:40.760 like somebody putting in one eighty grain weight in a 1:47:40.840 --> 1:47:43.439 two seventy because they need knockdown power because they're not 1:47:43.520 --> 1:47:47.760 going to make a good shot. That's the word, thank you, 1:47:48.760 --> 1:47:54.280 that's the word. I need it. It's vanesse. Doesn't with 1:47:55.000 --> 1:47:57.599 like the physics of something dropping out of the sky 1:47:59.040 --> 1:48:04.840 super fast. Don't know if you know, No, so U 1:48:05.520 --> 1:48:07.600 Red Tails picked up a skunk on my property the 1:48:07.680 --> 1:48:10.000 other day and I wasn't really thrilled about it, and 1:48:10.120 --> 1:48:11.560 she dropped She did come back and get it in 1:48:11.640 --> 1:48:14.040 case you're a Red Tail fan, but she dropped it right. 1:48:14.160 --> 1:48:18.400 And it was a baby. It was just a few weeks. Yeah, 1:48:18.479 --> 1:48:20.839 she killed it though. But I picked up the carcass 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:22.559 from the ground because she dropped it on this little 1:48:22.600 --> 1:48:24.760 trail and I thought that I was going to bring 1:48:24.840 --> 1:48:26.960 it over by the dan so the mom could see. 1:48:27.439 --> 1:48:29.080 I wondered how they would react to the baby, the 1:48:29.120 --> 1:48:33.439 dead baby skunk. But anyway I saw with the I 1:48:33.560 --> 1:48:35.840 wondered if she would recognize that that was hers orf 1:48:35.840 --> 1:48:37.360 there would be any kind of reaction, But the Red 1:48:37.400 --> 1:48:39.200 Tail came and snatched it back from me before I 1:48:39.240 --> 1:48:41.680 got to do anything. But anyway, the skunk, it was 1:48:41.760 --> 1:48:44.599 dead right she dropped it. She had managed to get 1:48:44.640 --> 1:48:48.120 her claws right through its head. I mean that's talent 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:50.720 she doesn't. You don't need any weight. If you've got 1:48:50.800 --> 1:48:53.479 that much finesse, it's dead like that second. If she 1:48:53.520 --> 1:48:56.439 had tried to grab it from its mass, it wouldn't 1:48:56.439 --> 1:48:59.080 have been dad. Maybe having extra weight would have helped. 1:48:59.360 --> 1:49:01.560 But red tails are really good hunters. I mean you 1:49:01.600 --> 1:49:04.560 see them pick up snakes. They're really good. That's a 1:49:04.600 --> 1:49:07.719 good point. That can't be easy. So she redtails have finesse, 1:49:07.800 --> 1:49:09.760 so it doesn't matter how much weight they have. A 1:49:09.840 --> 1:49:12.280 bald eagle that doesn't have finesse because they're used to 1:49:12.360 --> 1:49:16.320 killing things that are road kill uses their bulk, their mass. 1:49:16.800 --> 1:49:19.240 They're the one eighty grain weights in your two sevent 1:49:19.280 --> 1:49:23.800 day basically excusing their book. I know you guys don't 1:49:23.960 --> 1:49:26.679 go for knockdown power because that's not what you advertise. 1:49:26.720 --> 1:49:30.400 Probably I like things that yeah I should big, Yeah, 1:49:30.600 --> 1:49:33.320 I should, I should what would be regarded as a 1:49:33.360 --> 1:49:37.680 heavy rifle. Yeah, but it doesn't. Yeah. I used to 1:49:37.760 --> 1:49:39.760 load my own, and so I would always load down, down, down, 1:49:39.840 --> 1:49:41.559 lower than what I could buy in the market, because 1:49:41.800 --> 1:49:44.040 I don't want to if it hurts me more than 1:49:44.080 --> 1:49:46.120 it hurts what's dead. You don't want to lose your 1:49:47.439 --> 1:49:50.960 ba thing? Yeah, why hunt? If you're like arms going 1:49:51.000 --> 1:49:53.439 to fall off? I want to keep Can you take 1:49:53.439 --> 1:49:55.360 it off? Can you take it up? Offline? Arguing about 1:49:55.360 --> 1:49:58.479 the birds because I want to keep moving and what 1:49:58.560 --> 1:50:00.599 am I supposed to do? Saying if you got If 1:50:00.600 --> 1:50:02.519 you want to argue about birds more, you'll have to 1:50:02.560 --> 1:50:05.120 call Kathy up later. Oh yeah, no problem, I know 1:50:05.160 --> 1:50:09.560 where she lives. No, I'm am I arguing I don't know, 1:50:12.720 --> 1:50:18.280 all right, So, uh that's a big digression. Valuable. No, 1:50:18.600 --> 1:50:20.840 it's my fault, not my fault. I'm glad I did it. 1:50:21.360 --> 1:50:23.000 It was prompted by me, But I want to keep 1:50:23.040 --> 1:50:25.599 moving forward. That was just Cathy's bio. By the way, 1:50:25.640 --> 1:50:30.960 that now you know who I am? Yeah, um, okay, 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:33.680 walk me through and whatever way makes sense, walk me 1:50:33.720 --> 1:50:36.879 through how we got from that? Here? You are studying 1:50:37.160 --> 1:50:41.320 bald eagles too. You got a brand new book about 1:50:41.400 --> 1:50:46.559 about not foxes, but a fox based on a fox. 1:50:46.760 --> 1:50:50.840 It's really important to distinguish between foxes and a fox. 1:50:51.000 --> 1:50:55.040 So scientists do research, gather information so that you can 1:50:55.160 --> 1:51:00.479 enlighten us. Staring up Karmen again about foxes, just like 1:51:00.640 --> 1:51:04.599 sociologists are studying about humans. But when you write a book, 1:51:04.760 --> 1:51:07.800 a novel, you're not trying to show us about your 1:51:07.960 --> 1:51:11.679 You've got a protagonist who's one human. My book isn't 1:51:11.680 --> 1:51:15.920 about foxes in general. It's not encyclopedic information about a 1:51:16.000 --> 1:51:19.560 particular species. It's about one particular fox. But it is 1:51:19.680 --> 1:51:23.560 important for us to start realizing that we shouldn't just generalize. 1:51:23.600 --> 1:51:26.559 We have tended to generalize animals and put them all 1:51:26.600 --> 1:51:32.560 in one big clumps, yet it keeps us from empathizing 1:51:32.680 --> 1:51:34.760 with them. I think you'll feel the same when you 1:51:34.840 --> 1:51:38.439 think about other groups of people. But when we when 1:51:38.560 --> 1:51:42.400 we put people or animals in a big group, when 1:51:42.479 --> 1:51:47.000 we generalize, it keeps us from empathizing. And when we empathize, 1:51:47.080 --> 1:51:50.200 then we can really understand and accept and respect them 1:51:50.240 --> 1:51:53.400 and understand that they're a little bit closer to humans 1:51:53.479 --> 1:51:55.960 than we thought that they were. So my book is 1:51:56.000 --> 1:51:59.120 about an individual fox, and it is important to understand 1:51:59.160 --> 1:52:03.320 the difference between the generic generic fox. For I mean, 1:52:03.360 --> 1:52:06.560 there's lots of things that are true about foxes that 1:52:06.680 --> 1:52:09.920 I believe are true. I've read them in in in 1:52:10.040 --> 1:52:12.240 my textbook that I use in my classes, and so 1:52:12.800 --> 1:52:16.200 Foxes do have an instinct to evade, for example, something 1:52:16.280 --> 1:52:20.439 flying overhead, like a golden eagle, but my particular fox didn't. 1:52:20.640 --> 1:52:22.360 I mean I would watch him run down the hill 1:52:22.400 --> 1:52:24.439 and I've got a bald ego nest on the cliff there, 1:52:24.479 --> 1:52:27.040 and he just would just be bouncing around and I 1:52:27.080 --> 1:52:31.080 mean he just you know, animals do have individual personalities 1:52:31.160 --> 1:52:34.559 like that was a blind spot for that fox. Yeah, exactly. Um, 1:52:35.720 --> 1:52:39.160 but that's not I'm not trying to change how you 1:52:39.240 --> 1:52:41.599 feel about all foxes. I don't want you to think that, oh, 1:52:41.760 --> 1:52:44.360 it's not true that foxes evade. It's what's true of 1:52:44.439 --> 1:52:48.160 the generic fox. It's important that we have when we 1:52:48.280 --> 1:52:51.400 get in scientific information. We're talking about, you know, the 1:52:51.520 --> 1:52:54.160 ones under the high part of the Bell curve, and 1:52:54.280 --> 1:52:57.280 we assume that people know that there's outliers, but some 1:52:57.439 --> 1:53:01.040 people forget that their outliers and think that everything is 1:53:01.200 --> 1:53:04.679 the same. We know that humans have outliers to them 1:53:04.720 --> 1:53:07.080 in the room with like four outliers or so, so 1:53:07.320 --> 1:53:10.439 you know, humans are outliers, but we forget that's true 1:53:10.479 --> 1:53:15.120 of other species as well. Outlines humans like humans are 1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:24.280 kind of generally monogamous. They generally reproduce. But that's certainly, 1:53:25.439 --> 1:53:29.000 you know, not the case. I think humans scientifically speaking 1:53:29.040 --> 1:53:31.560 are hair and harem breeding species, Isn't that right? I 1:53:31.600 --> 1:53:34.840 mean they're harem breeders, but Mormons are monogamous, maybe, I guess, 1:53:34.920 --> 1:53:38.240 but not humans in general, we're harem breeders. Signed I 1:53:38.280 --> 1:53:41.640 mean biologically that I know what you mean. You mean, 1:53:41.840 --> 1:53:45.400 regress is like a sociological like a sociological overlay, a 1:53:45.479 --> 1:53:49.760 cultural overlay. Yeah, you should read EO. Wilson's socio Biology 1:53:51.320 --> 1:53:54.120 another but yeah, but I don't know, man, I was 1:53:54.160 --> 1:53:57.600 reading this thing about how, um that doesn't apply in 1:53:57.680 --> 1:54:03.840 your house that human in human females, Um, there's no 1:54:04.280 --> 1:54:08.680 outward visual. There's no outward visual to tell someone that 1:54:08.840 --> 1:54:12.720 they're in heat. Okay, if you just if you want 1:54:12.760 --> 1:54:14.800 to talk like like purely, like a million terms, there's 1:54:14.840 --> 1:54:18.960 no outward visual and it's not like a seasonal thing. 1:54:20.479 --> 1:54:24.080 It's not like once a year females. Yeah, like yeah, 1:54:24.200 --> 1:54:27.240 so viable, like it would be like a human female 1:54:27.280 --> 1:54:32.120 would be sexually viable twelve times a year, not one 1:54:32.200 --> 1:54:35.200 time a year like some wild animals. And at higher 1:54:35.280 --> 1:54:40.000 latitudes and then um, the temperature changes. You know that. 1:54:40.280 --> 1:54:41.960 But it's not outward I'm just telling you. I'm not 1:54:42.000 --> 1:54:45.120 telling you my of the vaginal fluids. Can you say 1:54:45.200 --> 1:54:52.160 that on your radio show outward visual displays? Yeah, but 1:54:52.320 --> 1:54:55.640 baboons Yeah, But on baboons for instance, there's like an 1:54:55.680 --> 1:54:59.320 outward visual display. So someone was saying, like I just 1:54:59.400 --> 1:55:03.880 read this thing time explaining monogamy and and staying at home. Okay, 1:55:04.280 --> 1:55:07.560 And it would be that you couldn't like a bull Elk. 1:55:07.680 --> 1:55:10.240 Let's take a bull Elk. Okay, he knows as long 1:55:10.280 --> 1:55:14.760 as he shows up in September around the cows, he's 1:55:14.800 --> 1:55:17.040 not missing anything. If he goes off into his own 1:55:17.160 --> 1:55:20.560 zone in November and stays out there and has no 1:55:20.760 --> 1:55:25.920 interaction with cows at all, totally antisocial, hides out, antisocial, 1:55:26.240 --> 1:55:28.600 he's not like he knows, he's not missing out on 1:55:28.680 --> 1:55:32.240 breeding up. You're right, But with a human it want 1:55:32.280 --> 1:55:35.520 to be in that that you could be missing out 1:55:35.600 --> 1:55:37.520 and in your absence there could be things going on 1:55:37.640 --> 1:55:40.680 that you don't want to know about. So that compelled 1:55:40.800 --> 1:55:45.120 people to spend their entire time together. Wouldn't that just 1:55:45.200 --> 1:55:49.200 compel one guy to like Genghis Khan, to have more 1:55:49.360 --> 1:55:53.160 females around him. When I say that we're harem breeders. 1:55:53.200 --> 1:55:55.200 I don't mean in the last two or three hundred four. 1:55:56.040 --> 1:55:58.040 Humans have been on the planet for hundreds of thousands 1:55:58.040 --> 1:56:00.600 of year, so I mean the history of home sapiens. 1:56:01.120 --> 1:56:02.600 And I'm not even telling I'm just saying, like a 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:06.360 thing I read, the thing I read, So never mind. 1:56:06.400 --> 1:56:09.080 What was I saying? There's a there's all sorts of 1:56:09.080 --> 1:56:11.040 fun stuff we can tell. Oh, you're talking about outliers 1:56:11.280 --> 1:56:12.480 and I was trying to say. I was trying to 1:56:12.520 --> 1:56:16.200 make like some general things about humans, like, sorry, I forget, 1:56:16.560 --> 1:56:21.560 sorry forget that there are outliers. There are outliers and humans. Yes, yes, yes, 1:56:21.640 --> 1:56:24.000 you're right, and sorry about that. So we start talking 1:56:24.000 --> 1:56:26.240 about monogamy and you were just because you picked a 1:56:26.320 --> 1:56:29.520 weird thing as to be an outlier, and actually, let 1:56:29.520 --> 1:56:33.640 should have picked something different. But like marshmallows, Yeah, we 1:56:33.840 --> 1:56:37.560 generally like marshmallows. People like sweet things, and then there's 1:56:37.600 --> 1:56:42.480 some people that don't like sweet stuff. That's safer, good shob. 1:56:42.840 --> 1:56:45.160 People like a certain kinds of food, and then every 1:56:45.200 --> 1:56:46.960 once in a while you run into people that don't 1:56:47.000 --> 1:56:48.920 like that kind of food, or people are basically all 1:56:48.960 --> 1:56:51.560 the same sizes and then there's like some people born 1:56:51.640 --> 1:56:54.240 that are like seven or eight feet tall, some people 1:56:54.280 --> 1:56:57.120 that are very short. So are you holding out? I 1:56:57.200 --> 1:56:59.200 want to I want to help out here? Are you 1:56:59.360 --> 1:57:03.800 holding out? The fox? And fox? And I could be 1:57:03.920 --> 1:57:08.000 like a wild outlier? Oh he's yeah, he's an outlier, 1:57:08.120 --> 1:57:10.560 not super wild outliers. I mean, you know, there's a 1:57:10.600 --> 1:57:12.800 research that was done in Rush over fifty year period 1:57:12.880 --> 1:57:16.160 and shows that um Dr Balovs research, and so far 1:57:16.360 --> 1:57:19.400 it's not a huge outlier. I doubt he's even one 1:57:19.440 --> 1:57:22.240 in a million. It's just that in my experience, in 1:57:22.360 --> 1:57:25.080 my very short life, and I've always had foxes on 1:57:25.160 --> 1:57:27.200 my property for for a long time anyway, I've not 1:57:27.320 --> 1:57:29.720 been able to get this to work with a relationship 1:57:29.800 --> 1:57:31.440 like that with another fox. But I haven't seen a 1:57:31.520 --> 1:57:34.040 million foxes, you know, a couple of dozen. So maybe 1:57:34.120 --> 1:57:36.280 he's one in a thousand or something like that, but 1:57:36.360 --> 1:57:40.640 he's not that that kind of personality. Isn't that rare? Yeah, 1:57:40.880 --> 1:57:43.000 he could be one in twenty four because the research 1:57:43.040 --> 1:57:46.160 shows that foxes are relatively easy to domesticate, almost as 1:57:46.200 --> 1:57:48.520 easy as dogs. So Dr Baliot was able to do 1:57:48.560 --> 1:58:00.880 it with about fifty generations that's pretty quick. Okay, lay 1:58:00.880 --> 1:58:04.040 out the fox, lay out the scenario. So the scenario 1:58:04.280 --> 1:58:07.640 is this little fox starts coming around my house like 1:58:07.920 --> 1:58:10.760 all the time at the same time, and I had 1:58:12.200 --> 1:58:14.680 right he was it was four fifteen. He was watching 1:58:14.800 --> 1:58:17.800 the sun. He was. He's really sensitive to the sun 1:58:17.880 --> 1:58:20.400 and kind of jerry manders whole life routines around like 1:58:20.480 --> 1:58:22.400 he doesn't like the sun in his eyes, but he 1:58:22.480 --> 1:58:24.680 does like the sun on his body when he's sun bathing, 1:58:24.760 --> 1:58:26.800 and um, he doesn't like to walk into it, so 1:58:26.920 --> 1:58:30.080 he does things according to the sun. First. A little 1:58:30.160 --> 1:58:32.800 sorry when you say little was was it a young No? 1:58:33.040 --> 1:58:35.720 But he was certainly a run I'm guessing I was 1:58:35.760 --> 1:58:38.640 guessing about six pounds, and um, you think he is 1:58:38.680 --> 1:58:41.080 at a run of a litter? Yeah, absolutely. I mean 1:58:41.120 --> 1:58:42.680 the fact that he couldn't talk. And then when you 1:58:42.760 --> 1:58:46.200 see when you go and see like a certain rock 1:58:46.280 --> 1:58:47.920 that he used to stand on all the time, and 1:58:48.000 --> 1:58:50.400 I have photos of all four ft on that rock, 1:58:50.720 --> 1:58:52.480 and then you go and look at how small that 1:58:52.640 --> 1:58:55.000 rock is, and you just, yeah, yeah, he was a 1:58:55.080 --> 1:58:58.640 real small fox. Foxes are smaller in the in the Rockies, 1:58:58.760 --> 1:59:00.880 then they're going to be in England and probably even 1:59:00.960 --> 1:59:04.000 in a more moderate climate than in in Washington State. 1:59:04.160 --> 1:59:07.160 Organ they're they're small in the Rockies. Everything smaller here 1:59:07.200 --> 1:59:10.560 because the growing seasons and they can't is short and 1:59:10.600 --> 1:59:12.800 they can't eat as much. So he was a small 1:59:12.920 --> 1:59:17.400 fox for sure. Um and he planned his life around 1:59:17.440 --> 1:59:19.600 the sun pretty much. But I think that he had 1:59:19.640 --> 1:59:23.440 decided he wanted me in his life. He wanted a person. 1:59:23.520 --> 1:59:26.400 There wasn't any other choice around for him besides me, 1:59:27.400 --> 1:59:29.160 and I didn't really want to have anything to do 1:59:29.280 --> 1:59:33.600 with him, but he wore me down, and eventually I 1:59:33.880 --> 1:59:36.440 really believe he became what I would call my best friend. 1:59:36.800 --> 1:59:40.040 We were together every day every day for years. I 1:59:40.120 --> 1:59:43.320 mean just I read to him and we walked around together, 1:59:43.560 --> 1:59:46.040 and then we played games together. But it took a 1:59:46.080 --> 1:59:50.240 while to get to that. No, but I do keep 1:59:50.600 --> 1:59:55.720 um egg yokes outside, not very close to my house. 1:59:55.800 --> 1:59:58.160 But when I was just eating egg whites in the 1:59:58.240 --> 2:00:00.320 days before you could just buy the whites, I would 2:00:00.320 --> 2:00:02.640 separate them out so I wasn't eating egg yolks every day. 2:00:02.920 --> 2:00:06.000 I would put egg yolks out by a tree about 2:00:06.000 --> 2:00:09.240 three from my house, and so he would eat those 2:00:09.280 --> 2:00:11.480 once in a while, but not many he would come 2:00:11.480 --> 2:00:15.240 by and eat like one. The magpies ate most of them, 2:00:15.600 --> 2:00:18.280 And I don't think that he ever associated those egg 2:00:18.360 --> 2:00:21.360 yolks with me. Um. So no, then I don't think. 2:00:21.440 --> 2:00:23.240 I was pretty careful not to put things in my 2:00:23.320 --> 2:00:24.920 mouth in front of him. Even if I was just 2:00:25.080 --> 2:00:28.320 drinking tea while I was sitting on the steps with him, 2:00:28.320 --> 2:00:30.160 I wouldn't even drink it while he was watching. I 2:00:30.200 --> 2:00:32.400 didn't want him to see me put stuff in my mouth, 2:00:32.840 --> 2:00:35.040 So there was as food with me. But there was 2:00:35.080 --> 2:00:39.240 a day, like a day when you first took note, 2:00:39.400 --> 2:00:43.760 like you first registered his presence, the first time that 2:00:43.920 --> 2:00:46.400 I realized he was odd and something was going to 2:00:46.480 --> 2:00:48.760 happen when he wasn't just like some air and animal. 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:51.360 I mean, there's always foxes and badgers and skunks around 2:00:51.440 --> 2:00:55.000 in Deer. That day happened when I was hanging out 2:00:55.080 --> 2:00:59.160 outside and I have I always have scabby knee, so 2:00:59.240 --> 2:01:02.360 I have the scab knee, and this huge house fly 2:01:02.960 --> 2:01:05.240 was playing with my scabs, sucking all this blood and 2:01:05.320 --> 2:01:07.120 playing with the blood, and I was like blowing it 2:01:07.240 --> 2:01:11.240 to try to get it off my knee. Falling off 2:01:11.240 --> 2:01:14.920 the cliffs, climbing up the cliffs. No, no, no, climbing 2:01:14.960 --> 2:01:17.440 up well, that was from a fall when I was jogging, 2:01:17.520 --> 2:01:19.360 or I shouldn't have been jogging by myself, and took 2:01:19.360 --> 2:01:21.440 a little bit of a role. But climbing the cliffs 2:01:21.480 --> 2:01:23.440 are jogging on trails that I shouldn't be jogging on. 2:01:24.600 --> 2:01:29.120 So I was playing with that fly and then I 2:01:29.280 --> 2:01:31.360 just kept playing. The fly wouldn't give up, so he 2:01:31.400 --> 2:01:33.240 would just get off my knee when I would blow 2:01:33.280 --> 2:01:35.320 really hard, and then he would take a few reconnaissance 2:01:35.440 --> 2:01:37.520 laps and then boom right back on my scab again, 2:01:37.880 --> 2:01:41.520 start pulling up the blood again. This nasty little arms, 2:01:41.560 --> 2:01:43.520 so to speak. They don't really have arms, I know, 2:01:43.680 --> 2:01:46.320 you know that. And I just got totally obsessed with 2:01:46.400 --> 2:01:48.320 his fly and forgot about everything else, and I was 2:01:48.440 --> 2:01:51.600 just staring at this house fly. Then I looked up 2:01:52.480 --> 2:01:55.200 and there was a fox like two like arms length 2:01:55.280 --> 2:01:58.280 away from me. It was him, and he didn't even 2:01:58.320 --> 2:02:01.360 know I was there. He was like staring at that 2:02:01.520 --> 2:02:04.240 fly on my knee. He was just obsessed with that fly, 2:02:04.520 --> 2:02:06.840 and I was obsessed with the fly. And at that 2:02:06.960 --> 2:02:08.640 point I didn't know what to do because he was 2:02:08.760 --> 2:02:13.320 so close. So I just said fox and then finally 2:02:13.400 --> 2:02:15.280 he looked up at me. And when he looked up 2:02:15.360 --> 2:02:18.080 at me, he turned his nose down, so that you know, 2:02:18.160 --> 2:02:19.680 the snout will be in the way if you're trying 2:02:19.720 --> 2:02:21.960 to look eye to eye. He turned down and then 2:02:22.560 --> 2:02:25.440 we were totally eye to eye. The width of six 2:02:25.520 --> 2:02:28.080 pound animal. His eyes are just about the same with 2:02:29.040 --> 2:02:32.080 as ours are. Another reason I don't think it's one 2:02:32.160 --> 2:02:33.920 in a million for fox in a human type. I 2:02:33.920 --> 2:02:36.160 mean their eyes. You know, I have a skunk that's 2:02:36.200 --> 2:02:38.800 almost the same size, hanging around all the time, almost 2:02:38.840 --> 2:02:42.280 the same size as as that fox. But there are 2:02:42.400 --> 2:02:44.080 there's no way you'd ever look eye to eye. I 2:02:44.120 --> 2:02:46.080 mean you can barely even see the eyes on a 2:02:46.120 --> 2:02:48.480 skunk or so small and their heads so small and there, 2:02:49.200 --> 2:02:52.360 and their eyes are so close together. So fox, when 2:02:52.400 --> 2:02:58.080 I'm sitting and he's standing standing on all fours, his 2:02:58.240 --> 2:03:00.240 eyes are the same height as mine and the same 2:03:00.320 --> 2:03:02.560 with this mind. So we were just eye to eye 2:03:02.720 --> 2:03:07.080 for just the longest time. And that moment, that was 2:03:07.200 --> 2:03:10.520 the moment that I knew there was no going back. Really, 2:03:10.640 --> 2:03:13.000 I mean I tried, but there was not. When you're 2:03:13.080 --> 2:03:14.880 that close. I mean, he could have reached out and 2:03:15.240 --> 2:03:17.880 swatted me. I could have, you know, reached grabbed his 2:03:17.960 --> 2:03:20.920 little neck and strangled him. But we we were just 2:03:21.080 --> 2:03:23.880 that close, just staring at each other, and then I 2:03:24.000 --> 2:03:26.120 locked him in. He locked me, and I think he 2:03:26.200 --> 2:03:28.000 knew he had me and I had him. At that point, 2:03:28.160 --> 2:03:31.480 I started taking stuff out of my pockets, tapping them 2:03:31.520 --> 2:03:36.320 on the woodsteps, like geodes and feathers, every mostly all 2:03:36.440 --> 2:03:39.120 natural things. I had some brass because I keep I 2:03:39.200 --> 2:03:41.640 don't just let my brass hang out, so I had 2:03:41.720 --> 2:03:43.600 some brass in my pocket. I took that out too, 2:03:44.200 --> 2:03:46.760 told him I didn't use it to shoot the dear, 2:03:46.880 --> 2:03:52.520 let's hang out the walk. I had that, so I 2:03:52.600 --> 2:03:54.440 took that out and tapped it. But you know, brass 2:03:54.600 --> 2:03:56.240 is pretty if you roll it in the sun, so 2:03:56.360 --> 2:03:58.600 I did that. He liked that, and he liked the rocks. 2:03:58.640 --> 2:04:01.160 He really liked the feathers that were in my pockets. 2:04:01.280 --> 2:04:03.600 And then I just moved away and let him did 2:04:03.800 --> 2:04:08.320 show well he's not He was really curious about them. 2:04:08.360 --> 2:04:10.280 I eventually moved away a couple of meters and just 2:04:10.440 --> 2:04:12.680 let him knows everything that was there, and he just 2:04:13.840 --> 2:04:16.400 I kept him coming back for days, just putting my 2:04:16.520 --> 2:04:19.120 little trinkets out in front of him and letting him 2:04:19.440 --> 2:04:22.280 show his interest. Then I worried that, well, it was 2:04:22.280 --> 2:04:25.080 getting boring for me, and he had a very short 2:04:25.120 --> 2:04:27.400 attention span, so he would look for a little while 2:04:27.440 --> 2:04:33.360 and then he put his head up, can themselves yes. 2:04:33.640 --> 2:04:36.240 So I started reading to him after that, and then 2:04:36.400 --> 2:04:40.560 he was really good about that. He liked it absolutely, 2:04:40.680 --> 2:04:43.520 he stayed. I mean I timed him quite a lot, 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:47.560 and I he averaged eighteen minutes, so that he didn't 2:04:47.600 --> 2:04:49.160 like it a lot. I mean he wouldn't sit for 2:04:49.240 --> 2:04:51.080 a very long period time. At eighteen minutes is pretty 2:04:51.080 --> 2:04:54.040 long for that's about as long as a person can say, okay, 2:04:54.400 --> 2:04:58.880 explain like I understand reading to it, but explained it 2:04:59.760 --> 2:05:03.280 just of that I was making it. So the reason 2:05:03.360 --> 2:05:07.440 it's noise, I mean, the reason I was reading is 2:05:07.480 --> 2:05:10.360 because I just wasn't used to talking about just myself 2:05:10.480 --> 2:05:13.160 telling stories, and that's boring and that's hard to do. 2:05:14.080 --> 2:05:18.000 So I got something that was easy to read. And 2:05:18.200 --> 2:05:20.120 then you talk for a certain amount of time and 2:05:20.320 --> 2:05:23.680 look hold up the pictures so he knows you're trying 2:05:23.720 --> 2:05:26.400 to communicate, and then you stop and then you look 2:05:26.440 --> 2:05:29.280 at him. Count to fifteen to yourself so that he 2:05:29.440 --> 2:05:31.800 realizes that you are trying to communicate. If you just 2:05:31.960 --> 2:05:35.040 make noise, he thinks you're just ignoring him. That you know, 2:05:35.240 --> 2:05:38.080 it's just a person who's making noise. I mean you 2:05:38.400 --> 2:05:40.200 you have to do it in that pattern as if 2:05:40.240 --> 2:05:42.920 you're trying to communicate. And I kept up that pattern 2:05:43.360 --> 2:05:45.360 and he got used to that pattern, so he knew 2:05:45.400 --> 2:05:48.240 I was trying to communicate with him. And he had 2:05:48.280 --> 2:05:52.440 every reason to want me hanging around him because I 2:05:52.600 --> 2:05:55.440 have hands and big, bad tools. And he knew I 2:05:55.560 --> 2:05:59.440 hated feral cats. I mean he watched me chase them away. 2:05:59.800 --> 2:06:01.840 He didn't know about the bad words I was saying 2:06:01.880 --> 2:06:03.800 to those cats, but he knew I hated Ferrell cats, 2:06:03.840 --> 2:06:07.800 and he hated Ferrell And there was protection there, reduced predator. 2:06:08.720 --> 2:06:10.800 He got to hang out in the sunshine in the 2:06:10.840 --> 2:06:13.920 middle of the day because I was there. Normally Fox 2:06:13.960 --> 2:06:15.840 wouldn't be able to just you know, not with dogs 2:06:15.920 --> 2:06:18.800 and feral cats around and eagles. So he got a 2:06:18.880 --> 2:06:23.720 huge advantage from being my friend. Huge. Okay, but what 2:06:23.880 --> 2:06:25.960 is he eating all this time? Oh, he was a 2:06:26.000 --> 2:06:28.320 great hunter, So he's eating lots and lots and lots 2:06:28.360 --> 2:06:33.840 of voles, mostly voles. That's I think that's Chapter three 2:06:33.920 --> 2:06:36.040 of the book is called Vole Forest, and it explains 2:06:36.120 --> 2:06:40.880 how I accidentally he got a huge forest filled with 2:06:41.000 --> 2:06:42.840 voles on my property. I didn't mean to, but I 2:06:43.000 --> 2:06:45.440 was just to make a long story short, I just 2:06:45.560 --> 2:06:49.520 wasn't paying attention to my property and I had this massive, 2:06:49.800 --> 2:06:52.240 massive amount of voles. I mean they run over my 2:06:52.360 --> 2:06:54.520 feet while I was walking. I mean one of them 2:06:54.640 --> 2:06:58.400 gave birth on my boot while I'm not kidding, just 2:06:58.520 --> 2:07:02.440 because just because the grassload and there was so it 2:07:02.760 --> 2:07:05.000 ended up just growing too high with the weeds those 2:07:05.080 --> 2:07:07.200 kind of woody things, and then it lays down and 2:07:07.280 --> 2:07:09.600 creates that kind of like that sort of buffer between 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:14.480 the ground and the animals that hunt voles from the 2:07:14.600 --> 2:07:17.040 air aren't going to go in through woody things that 2:07:17.120 --> 2:07:21.040 are thorny, and animals that take skunks take bowls, foxes 2:07:21.080 --> 2:07:23.680 take fowls, badgers, animals that come in from the side, 2:07:23.840 --> 2:07:26.680 especially animals that pounds like a fox, they can't get 2:07:26.720 --> 2:07:29.480 in either. So the voles just start proliferating and proliferating 2:07:29.520 --> 2:07:32.120 and proliferating until this is huge amount of them. I mean, 2:07:32.160 --> 2:07:35.560 they were just everywhere so that really attracted him. But 2:07:35.640 --> 2:07:38.440 he was a good hunter anyway. Even after I figured 2:07:38.440 --> 2:07:41.400 out how to kind of limit the vols a little bit, 2:07:41.480 --> 2:07:43.160 he was a terrific hunter. There were days when he 2:07:43.280 --> 2:07:45.760 had five bals piled up by my front doorsteps. He 2:07:45.800 --> 2:07:51.120 would wait, he would hunt. Yeah, I thought that he 2:07:51.320 --> 2:07:54.960 was giving them to me, But he wasn't. But I 2:07:55.080 --> 2:07:57.200 thought he was. Was it just the same you feel 2:07:57.240 --> 2:07:58.720 it was a safe place to portal. It was just 2:07:58.920 --> 2:08:02.120 because he figured out the only place the magpies wouldn't 2:08:02.240 --> 2:08:04.920 steal them. Magpies were really aggressive, and they'll come to 2:08:05.040 --> 2:08:07.160 my steps, but they won't come right to the door. 2:08:07.360 --> 2:08:09.640 That's like the limit for magpies. So he would put 2:08:09.680 --> 2:08:11.920 them right up the door so that the magpies wouldn't 2:08:11.920 --> 2:08:14.880 steal them, and he would keep hunting until he had 2:08:15.000 --> 2:08:17.560 so men enough to fill his whole mouth. Then he 2:08:17.560 --> 2:08:19.440 would gather them all up and run them up the 2:08:19.520 --> 2:08:21.640 hill to where the kids were, because he was helping 2:08:21.720 --> 2:08:23.760 feed them. But if he had to just run up 2:08:23.760 --> 2:08:25.480 and down, up and down every time he killed one, 2:08:25.480 --> 2:08:27.800 it wouldn't be very efficient. So he liked to pile 2:08:27.960 --> 2:08:30.400 his dead things up and then grab them and then 2:08:30.480 --> 2:08:32.720 bring them up the hill, so he wasn't giving them 2:08:32.760 --> 2:08:35.440 to me. He was just he was just leaving them 2:08:35.480 --> 2:08:38.960 there because magpies wouldn't eat anything on my doorstep. You 2:08:39.080 --> 2:08:42.120 knew that, but I didn't. Yeah, you mentioned it was 2:08:42.160 --> 2:08:45.480 how vain I was present from the fox. You mentioned 2:08:47.240 --> 2:08:51.200 how short lived they are. Yeah, yeah, I was a 2:08:51.240 --> 2:08:53.240 little bit if I think if you'd I came here 2:08:53.320 --> 2:08:54.320 with what you said, But it's like it's like a 2:08:54.440 --> 2:08:56.600 few years, right, Yeah, like about a guess. I don't know, 2:08:56.600 --> 2:08:58.200 I would have I would have thrown out seven or 2:08:58.240 --> 2:09:00.080 eight years. I don't know why, probably in his do 2:09:00.560 --> 2:09:03.800 But they're wild animals don't live very long. Yeah. I 2:09:03.960 --> 2:09:07.480 think that's probably one reason why their personalities might be 2:09:07.520 --> 2:09:10.040 a little bit different than human personalities. You think back 2:09:10.080 --> 2:09:11.840 to what your life was like when you were a 2:09:11.880 --> 2:09:14.000 twenty year old. You were talking about crazy things that 2:09:14.080 --> 2:09:17.320 you've done, but and how you think about those near 2:09:17.360 --> 2:09:20.520 death experiences. But you think about those near death experiences 2:09:20.600 --> 2:09:23.080 differently based on what decade you are in your life. 2:09:23.440 --> 2:09:26.000 But they don't have like decades of their life. They 2:09:26.640 --> 2:09:31.280 it's short lived animals, But for us humans, a twenty 2:09:31.400 --> 2:09:34.120 year old human has a little bit different person. I mean, 2:09:34.160 --> 2:09:37.000 you don't change the person's genetics. It's the exact same person, 2:09:37.560 --> 2:09:40.880 but your personality changes when you're twenty versus when you're eighty. 2:09:41.000 --> 2:09:44.240 Probably your idea about what a near death experience is, 2:09:44.320 --> 2:09:47.720 even your idea about the passage of time exactly, exactly exactly. 2:09:47.840 --> 2:09:50.160 And I read somewhere with someone who was trying to 2:09:50.320 --> 2:09:55.080 capture when we hear that of whatever, a fly or whatever, 2:09:55.240 --> 2:09:59.240 some aquatic insect has a day or two days right 2:10:00.000 --> 2:10:04.320 as it emerges, and and someone's describing, though I can't 2:10:04.320 --> 2:10:06.360 hear who was talking about this with their talking about 2:10:06.880 --> 2:10:09.960 when you go to swat a fly, right, So in 2:10:10.040 --> 2:10:13.080 your mind you're like it's fast like right, but the 2:10:13.120 --> 2:10:16.880 flies mine. It's like there's this um, there's this thing 2:10:17.000 --> 2:10:22.200 that's that's coming that I'll eventually but I'll eventually need 2:10:22.320 --> 2:10:26.480 to take into consideration and avoid. You know, it's just 2:10:26.560 --> 2:10:28.280 like it's tripped like who you know, who really knows, 2:10:28.320 --> 2:10:31.920 but like it's it's like it's comprehension of time is 2:10:32.120 --> 2:10:34.560 thousands of light years away, there's up there, it's going 2:10:34.640 --> 2:10:37.560 to hit the earth. Yeah, that's right. You look at trees, 2:10:37.600 --> 2:10:39.520 you know, you look at trees that are hundreds of 2:10:39.560 --> 2:10:42.200 years old, like is it you know, not that it's 2:10:42.240 --> 2:10:46.880 regarding time, but just whatever the experience is, isn't you know? 2:10:47.680 --> 2:10:50.200 We're sort of built in. I think that we're born, 2:10:51.200 --> 2:10:54.400 and we pretty quickly get a grasp of kind of 2:10:54.480 --> 2:10:56.560 what a year is. We quickly get to grasp of 2:10:56.680 --> 2:11:00.920 when people die, and we start to measure because we 2:11:01.040 --> 2:11:03.480 have a like there's a fair sense like if you're 2:11:03.520 --> 2:11:06.160 live right now, you know you're going to be around 2:11:06.200 --> 2:11:09.920 eighty and you start taking that stuff off, man, I know, 2:11:10.160 --> 2:11:13.840 and then you realize that it's it's unavoidable, and there 2:11:13.960 --> 2:11:17.280 comes this awareness of things are things going by time 2:11:17.360 --> 2:11:21.520 going back differently and you're burning a fuse and I 2:11:21.600 --> 2:11:24.280 don't know what you know? Maybe you know now better, 2:11:24.360 --> 2:11:25.680 but I don't know what a fox. I don't know 2:11:25.720 --> 2:11:29.000 if a fox is aware that it's it's taken, I don't, 2:11:29.040 --> 2:11:31.560 but it seems like it would be innate. I think 2:11:31.640 --> 2:11:35.560 it's one of the reasons why humans have often set 2:11:35.640 --> 2:11:39.400 themselves apart from other animals and always forget even your 2:11:39.760 --> 2:11:43.160 even your students, even your undergraduate students in the middle 2:11:43.200 --> 2:11:46.160 of a biology class, forget that humans are animals and 2:11:46.280 --> 2:11:49.160 there's only six kingdom of life, and there's an animal 2:11:49.240 --> 2:11:51.560 kingdom and where in it, there's not a separate kingdom 2:11:51.680 --> 2:11:55.320 for humans. So we are animals, but people forget that. 2:11:55.480 --> 2:11:57.600 But one way that we have been different from most 2:11:57.640 --> 2:12:00.600 of the animals that are around in modern America is 2:12:00.640 --> 2:12:03.760 that we're so much longer lived. And that's that's even 2:12:03.880 --> 2:12:06.680 more drastic because maybe a hundred or two hundred years 2:12:06.720 --> 2:12:09.840 ago we lived maybe sixty years, and now it's eighty. 2:12:09.920 --> 2:12:11.800 But maybe it's going to be even longer than that. 2:12:11.880 --> 2:12:14.240 But the lifespan of the animals hasn't changed, so we 2:12:14.320 --> 2:12:17.480 are separating ourselves a little bit in terms of our longevity. 2:12:17.520 --> 2:12:22.080 Bears can live for years, grisly bears, large animals can, 2:12:22.160 --> 2:12:24.960 But we're wiping out the larger animals because they threaten us. 2:12:25.000 --> 2:12:27.320 So there aren't a lot of large animals around. But 2:12:27.440 --> 2:12:29.440 you know, bison our large animals, and they probably don't 2:12:29.440 --> 2:12:32.280 live more than a sixteen years. So we do live 2:12:32.320 --> 2:12:35.400 a lot longer. And if the length that you live 2:12:36.440 --> 2:12:39.720 changes your personality, then it would give you a reason 2:12:39.800 --> 2:12:42.440 to believe that humans we have a little bit different 2:12:42.440 --> 2:12:46.120 personality than foxes. It doesn't mean that other animals don't 2:12:46.200 --> 2:12:49.640 have a personality, and I think that I don't believe 2:12:49.680 --> 2:12:53.120 that humans are the only animals that have certain personality traits. 2:12:53.200 --> 2:12:58.120 I think that anthropomorphism is just been mischaracterized and it's 2:12:58.160 --> 2:13:00.600 based on assumptions that just don't make any ense anymore. 2:13:00.760 --> 2:13:02.520 I want to talk, Well, you got to define it, 2:13:02.640 --> 2:13:04.560 but I want to talk about anthropomorphism, but first I 2:13:04.600 --> 2:13:07.960 want to talk and maybe you answered it. Uh what 2:13:08.120 --> 2:13:11.600 what's the fox's lifespan? Just a few years? Yeah, So 2:13:11.760 --> 2:13:13.920 you get into this routine with this thing and it's 2:13:14.000 --> 2:13:17.880 like you know that it's no, it's won't last, that's right, 2:13:18.240 --> 2:13:21.040 And I and I thought that was really stupid. I 2:13:21.120 --> 2:13:25.080 remember I was jogging and thinking to myself, this is 2:13:25.440 --> 2:13:28.920 really really dumb. Why am I spending all this I 2:13:29.040 --> 2:13:30.680 was spending a lot of time. I mean, my whole 2:13:30.720 --> 2:13:32.880 life was pretty much geared around you have to be 2:13:33.040 --> 2:13:38.600 home at four or fifteen. Um, that's just insane. An 2:13:38.640 --> 2:13:40.440 animal that's just going to be gone on the blink 2:13:40.480 --> 2:13:43.120 of an eye. But you know, in Paradise Valley there's 2:13:43.280 --> 2:13:46.600 all those rainbows out there, and double rainbows are really common. 2:13:46.680 --> 2:13:48.760 And I was jogging on this trail and suddenly this 2:13:48.920 --> 2:13:52.560 rainbow came up and then it doubled and you can 2:13:52.640 --> 2:13:55.280 see end to end. You can still see Ndan from 2:13:55.280 --> 2:13:57.000 my house, but I could see Undan from where I 2:13:57.080 --> 2:13:59.400 was jogging because it's so open country out there. And 2:13:59.480 --> 2:14:01.480 then I really lies that a rainbow, I mean, how 2:14:01.520 --> 2:14:04.560 long does that last? And I stopped to watch it. 2:14:04.760 --> 2:14:06.480 I mean I didn't just like, oh, it's I'm not 2:14:06.520 --> 2:14:09.320 going to waste my time with a rainbow because because 2:14:09.400 --> 2:14:12.640 it's short lived. And I just and that that made 2:14:12.720 --> 2:14:15.320 up my mind. I thought, that's so stupid to worry 2:14:15.320 --> 2:14:18.040 about how long something lives when a rainbow doesn't. And 2:14:18.120 --> 2:14:19.840 I'm not the only one. When you're up in the 2:14:19.920 --> 2:14:22.200 mountains and you look down you can see cars, I 2:14:22.240 --> 2:14:25.880 mean they just stop. People that are like going ninety 2:14:25.920 --> 2:14:27.560 miles an hour to get to the airport and they're like, 2:14:27.640 --> 2:14:29.760 at whatever, miss people just stop when they see the 2:14:29.800 --> 2:14:32.000 double rainbows do that and these you know, people have 2:14:32.120 --> 2:14:37.040 seen hundreds of rainbows and they just stop. Anyway, it 2:14:37.120 --> 2:14:39.560 doesn't really matter how long it lives. How does the fox? 2:14:39.680 --> 2:14:41.720 Can you tell you? Are you afraid of ruining those 2:14:41.720 --> 2:14:44.440 story if you tell how the fox dies? Yeah? I 2:14:44.560 --> 2:14:49.520 am glad you asked I'm not telling you how the 2:14:49.560 --> 2:14:52.920 fox died. Listen, we got real numbers here. And these 2:14:52.960 --> 2:14:56.000 people is reading the book right now. There you go, 2:14:56.200 --> 2:14:58.640 thank you. Yeah, Carmen is reading the boat. Do you 2:14:58.720 --> 2:15:03.520 want to I'll find out. I don't want to know 2:15:03.560 --> 2:15:07.360 how the thoughts did the talk about anthropomorphism, because that's 2:15:07.360 --> 2:15:09.440 what everybody's gonna say. That's what a guy like me 2:15:09.480 --> 2:15:12.320 is going to say. They're gonna say, oh, you're anthropomorphiz Yeah, 2:15:12.400 --> 2:15:15.560 I know everybody. I mean, I've heard that so many times. 2:15:15.680 --> 2:15:19.120 I mean, that's your unapologetic of course. I mean as 2:15:19.160 --> 2:15:22.040 a part grinder, as a professor and you know, students, 2:15:22.120 --> 2:15:24.400 and that a word is a really it's a ward 2:15:24.480 --> 2:15:26.320 that a lot of people in the public like to 2:15:26.520 --> 2:15:30.120 say because they think that it's really pedantic. I think, 2:15:30.200 --> 2:15:33.040 but it's only just now becoming pedantic. I think people 2:15:33.080 --> 2:15:36.800 think it makes them sound sophisticated and pro science if 2:15:36.880 --> 2:15:40.040 they accuse everybody of being anthropomorphic. But I think we 2:15:40.160 --> 2:15:42.640 need to first, you got it, You first got to identify. 2:15:42.960 --> 2:15:49.120 You have to if it means that you are crediting 2:15:50.080 --> 2:15:56.840 human traits to an animal that's not human, so human 2:15:57.160 --> 2:16:00.520 human trait might be for example, this is. One of 2:16:00.560 --> 2:16:03.560 my students gave me this. Um. She said that Adam 2:16:03.640 --> 2:16:11.840 and Eve experienced or exhibited modesty, and she said, that's 2:16:12.040 --> 2:16:16.040 a trait that we think only humans have. You mean 2:16:16.120 --> 2:16:18.760 when they covered themselves with leaves. Yeah, I never I 2:16:19.160 --> 2:16:21.120 needed one of my undergraduates explain that to me. And 2:16:21.120 --> 2:16:23.080 I really loved that. It was part of it had 2:16:23.120 --> 2:16:24.880 to do with sort of like Neanderthals. But it's a 2:16:24.960 --> 2:16:27.200 question that I used to ask. They were introduced to 2:16:27.440 --> 2:16:32.440 shame Bible person, so maybe it's shame, but um, yeah, 2:16:32.760 --> 2:16:35.360 they were. They were made to feel shame. Okay, they're 2:16:35.360 --> 2:16:37.840 made to feel shame, and so that's a human trait. 2:16:38.280 --> 2:16:42.640 And then if you see two little chipmunks mating, um, 2:16:43.959 --> 2:16:46.280 you say to yourself, they're just out there mating and 2:16:46.360 --> 2:16:48.160 they don't care that all these people are standing around 2:16:48.280 --> 2:16:52.480 watching because they don't. They have no shame. They experience 2:16:52.600 --> 2:16:57.800 no shame. But really, but that's voyeur. I'm a part 2:16:57.840 --> 2:17:07.440 of the humansitionism. Apart the voy is you're the voyrus 2:17:07.520 --> 2:17:12.560 for watching the animals or exhibitionists between the and role 2:17:12.600 --> 2:17:15.080 play and exhibit. This is the most risk ay episode 2:17:15.080 --> 2:17:17.039 of the Medior podcast. Will go walk out and protest. 2:17:17.080 --> 2:17:18.400 He's like, I did sign up for this kind of stuff. 2:17:18.400 --> 2:17:20.760 I'm a family. Now this is what I want. You 2:17:21.640 --> 2:17:23.720 all went to the University of Montana, finally going to 2:17:23.800 --> 2:17:25.800 direction that Phil can get on board with. Yeah, the 2:17:26.120 --> 2:17:30.720 uh the giant red squirrels that overran the campus on 2:17:30.800 --> 2:17:33.720 the University of Montana. That exact scene you just described 2:17:33.720 --> 2:17:37.080 played out many times during my stamped at you m 2:17:38.320 --> 2:17:40.840 you went to You have m too, writing, you studied 2:17:40.879 --> 2:17:44.760 writing them good school, you went to them. So now 2:17:47.280 --> 2:17:49.080 I don't know what that makes. It makes us grizz 2:17:49.240 --> 2:17:52.600 because you're wrong to the undergraduate school. So even when 2:17:52.640 --> 2:17:56.000 I'm in my regalia, maybe I shouldn't say this on there, 2:17:57.080 --> 2:18:00.040 my regalias from the University of Montana, my own to 2:18:00.120 --> 2:18:04.520 graduate school instead of my PhD. Because I just think 2:18:04.560 --> 2:18:06.880 you always belonged to under gradgate school, don't you. I don't. 2:18:06.920 --> 2:18:08.600 I don't know. I never I don't look at those 2:18:08.640 --> 2:18:10.440 institutions in that way. I felt. I felt it was 2:18:10.560 --> 2:18:14.000 very transactional and like I don't have any sort of 2:18:14.320 --> 2:18:18.120 when they call about fundraising, do you just help everybody? No, 2:18:18.360 --> 2:18:20.320 I just have things I'm dedicated to. But it's like 2:18:20.360 --> 2:18:23.240 I just viewed it as a transactional relationship. Like I 2:18:24.120 --> 2:18:29.280 I you know, I go to Whale Entire here in town. Okay, um, 2:18:29.959 --> 2:18:32.960 Like I don't imagine Whale Entire calling me wanting me 2:18:33.000 --> 2:18:35.640 to send them extra money. Like we engage in a 2:18:35.720 --> 2:18:39.920 transaction and the transaction is done. Don't call me later 2:18:39.959 --> 2:18:41.920 and be like, hey, you know you had your oil 2:18:42.040 --> 2:18:44.400 change here and bought tires here. How about now just 2:18:44.480 --> 2:18:46.640 sending us money for nothing? It was I feel it 2:18:46.760 --> 2:18:49.280 was very transactional. But I want to get back. When 2:18:49.280 --> 2:18:51.520 I dropped out of the University of Montana, nobody ever 2:18:51.640 --> 2:18:54.840 called and said, hey, really missed you in class. Did 2:18:54.920 --> 2:18:58.680 you go back? I never did. No. No, Mom listens 2:18:58.720 --> 2:19:04.320 to these two and so back. You know. Okay, anthropomorphism, 2:19:04.480 --> 2:19:05.960 so you know what it means. So you get what 2:19:06.080 --> 2:19:08.119 it means now where you're sorry, Yeah, I just want 2:19:08.160 --> 2:19:10.240 to make sure everybody. I want to make sure everybody's tracking. 2:19:10.879 --> 2:19:16.440 So if you pretend that an animal has a certain quality, 2:19:16.760 --> 2:19:19.720 a certain personality trait, people think you're pretending that it 2:19:19.920 --> 2:19:23.600 couldn't possibly Then they say you're being anthropomorphic because it's 2:19:23.640 --> 2:19:29.200 not possible that an animal could possibly feel loyalty or pain. 2:19:29.440 --> 2:19:31.240 I mean, I think I give an example. You are 2:19:31.240 --> 2:19:33.480 at about Buffalo, so you'll know this example from my book. 2:19:33.520 --> 2:19:36.560 Are you familiar with Dr Hornaday's work? Okay, doky, So 2:19:37.000 --> 2:19:39.800 I've read Horniday's journals. I love them. That's another plug. 2:19:40.120 --> 2:19:43.960 Dr Hornaday's journals are fantastic. And so he emerged as 2:19:44.000 --> 2:19:46.400 a very controversial figure. He did. But you know, his 2:19:46.520 --> 2:19:49.720 family called me when I finished publishing an article about him. 2:19:50.360 --> 2:19:52.200 They said it was the best piece they've ever It 2:19:52.200 --> 2:19:53.760 wasn't just about him, it was about Buffalo, but they 2:19:53.760 --> 2:19:55.440 said it was the best piece they've ever read about him. 2:19:55.440 --> 2:19:58.680 And I was not trying to be complimentary. I was 2:19:58.800 --> 2:20:01.080 very objective. I mean I talked about all his warts. 2:20:01.120 --> 2:20:02.920 There were many of them. He had a lot of prejudices, 2:20:03.040 --> 2:20:08.320 but he did a lot of important things. Anyway, Buffalo cows, 2:20:08.440 --> 2:20:11.200 the females were getting when they were getting shot a 2:20:11.280 --> 2:20:14.959 lot in the late eighteen hundreds. When one falls from 2:20:15.000 --> 2:20:16.960 a bullet, then the other ones just all kind of 2:20:17.080 --> 2:20:22.680 stand around. And Hornaday said, these animals are complicit in 2:20:22.760 --> 2:20:24.640 their own I mean, he wanted to save them. He 2:20:24.760 --> 2:20:28.160 was furious, but still he said they're complicit in their 2:20:28.200 --> 2:20:33.240 own extinction because there. He called them stupid brutes because 2:20:33.320 --> 2:20:36.400 they just stand around and one's gone down. The hunters, 2:20:36.640 --> 2:20:38.800 probably on the Tutu train, are just going to keep shooting, 2:20:38.800 --> 2:20:40.640 and they're going to shoot all of them. Yeah, and 2:20:40.680 --> 2:20:46.240 the hide hunters would even manipulate that. And so how 2:20:48.000 --> 2:20:50.520 and why don't you believe some of the stories that 2:20:50.640 --> 2:20:53.880 say that they simply had loyalty. Now, when that character 2:20:54.120 --> 2:20:59.400 was his name Custer, when Custer um did his last retreat, 2:21:00.040 --> 2:21:05.360 unning retreat, everybody tried to turn that into his They 2:21:05.440 --> 2:21:07.120 call it his stand, even though he was doing a 2:21:07.200 --> 2:21:12.240 running retreat because it was considered honorable to stand in 2:21:12.320 --> 2:21:16.840 the face of danger. It makes you loyal and brave 2:21:17.200 --> 2:21:20.360 because he was a human, and that's a human trait. 2:21:20.480 --> 2:21:25.480 But if an animal stands with her comrades, she's an idiot. 2:21:25.680 --> 2:21:31.680 They're foolish, you see. He Hornaday wasn't able to see that. 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:35.560 It's possible that buffalo might have other characteristics, that they 2:21:35.640 --> 2:21:40.320 might just be simply standing with their comrades because they're royal. 2:21:40.840 --> 2:21:43.200 I don't know the answer, but Hornaday doesn't know the 2:21:43.200 --> 2:21:45.440 answer either. I mean, both Horniday and I are working 2:21:45.600 --> 2:21:48.959 from a bias and from very limited data. And there's 2:21:49.000 --> 2:21:51.400 really no way to know. I mean, sometimes science doesn't 2:21:51.440 --> 2:21:53.160 have an answer for you. You just have to use 2:21:53.200 --> 2:21:56.200 your instincts, in your common sense. But neither Horniday nor 2:21:56.320 --> 2:21:59.200 I know what's going on. Really, we could both be wrong. 2:21:59.680 --> 2:22:01.360 I don't know, But all I know is that he 2:22:01.480 --> 2:22:03.920 didn't consider it, and I I just throw that out 2:22:03.959 --> 2:22:06.640 as a possibility. That's what I mean by anthropomorphism. So 2:22:07.120 --> 2:22:10.960 if I were to say those buffalo aren't stupid, they're 2:22:11.000 --> 2:22:15.840 just they're there because they're loyal. They're standing with their 2:22:15.879 --> 2:22:19.520 comments because they're loyal, then you, if you're pedantic, would 2:22:19.520 --> 2:22:22.280 say to me, so anthropomorphic, Raven, get the hell out 2:22:22.320 --> 2:22:24.720 of here. But but couldn't you Also, because we often 2:22:24.760 --> 2:22:28.600 talk about um and teacher trying to teach our kids that, 2:22:28.879 --> 2:22:32.280 you know, the animals not being stupid, that's like this 2:22:32.480 --> 2:22:35.200 human thing we want to we want to attribute to it. 2:22:35.600 --> 2:22:39.119 It's just being an animal. So is there another version 2:22:40.320 --> 2:22:44.240 where they're not they're not being anthropomorphic, but they're just 2:22:44.360 --> 2:22:48.680 being buffalo? Yeah, I think that, Well, go ahead here, 2:22:48.760 --> 2:22:50.880 But you wrote a wonderful book on buffalo. By the way, 2:22:50.920 --> 2:22:53.120 that's another plug I want to put in this. One 2:22:53.160 --> 2:22:57.400 of the books I own it's great. I rebel against Okay, one, 2:22:57.480 --> 2:23:04.040 I discourage my kids from like outrageous anthropomorphism. I discourage that. 2:23:04.240 --> 2:23:07.920 I also even more vehemently discourage them from describing animals 2:23:07.959 --> 2:23:11.320 as stupid. If something doesn't run away, I'm like, well, 2:23:11.360 --> 2:23:15.040 how is it benefits You're not a risk. Why is 2:23:15.080 --> 2:23:17.520 it beneficial for it to expend all kinds of energy 2:23:17.920 --> 2:23:20.879 and put itself in the in the way of potential 2:23:21.000 --> 2:23:23.840 harm by running headlong into some other area to get 2:23:23.840 --> 2:23:26.080 away from something that's not risky. So when you say, 2:23:26.120 --> 2:23:29.200 like the turkeys in our yard are stupid because it 2:23:29.240 --> 2:23:32.640 does stand there, um, maybe be really stupid for it 2:23:32.720 --> 2:23:34.840 to run away from something that's not threatening it and 2:23:34.920 --> 2:23:37.240 then it lands in the neighbor's fence and gets eaten 2:23:37.280 --> 2:23:39.880 by the neighbor's dog because it's retreating from something that 2:23:39.959 --> 2:23:42.440 pollses no risk. Anyways, maybe the turkey is really smart 2:23:43.600 --> 2:23:46.480 and doesn't run away, and that's perfect. I mean, that's 2:23:46.520 --> 2:23:48.920 the first step that we have to take. And in 2:23:49.080 --> 2:23:53.080 Hornaday's time, animals were always considered I mean, if they 2:23:53.160 --> 2:23:56.920 had a personality, even those stupidity is not technically a personality. 2:23:57.240 --> 2:24:00.520 It was always to negate the ability the animal and 2:24:00.600 --> 2:24:02.720 to say they're stupid and that they're dumb. And I 2:24:02.840 --> 2:24:04.400 agree with what both of you guys are saying. We 2:24:04.480 --> 2:24:06.920 need to get people and kids, especially away from the 2:24:07.000 --> 2:24:10.960 idea of constantly calling animals dumb when they you see skunks, 2:24:11.160 --> 2:24:13.520 uh getting run over by cars all the time? They're 2:24:13.560 --> 2:24:16.959 so dumb? Why are they? Because they can't evolve fast 2:24:17.080 --> 2:24:20.720 enough to realize that humans used to walk and then 2:24:20.920 --> 2:24:22.960 drag dogs with them, which are a little faster, and 2:24:23.040 --> 2:24:25.400 then horses, and in like a hundred years, we now 2:24:25.480 --> 2:24:27.880 have semi trucks do in a hundred miles an hour 2:24:28.320 --> 2:24:31.040 on the same trail that humans used to walk on. 2:24:31.200 --> 2:24:36.760 Skunks can't evolve fast enough. We can't either. It's not 2:24:36.879 --> 2:24:39.840 that they're stupid, it's just that they haven't evolved with 2:24:40.160 --> 2:24:43.240 semi trucks coming across the highway like this at these 2:24:43.280 --> 2:24:46.840 outrageous speeds. But we do have a bad habit of 2:24:46.920 --> 2:24:51.120 calling animals stupid when um, they do things that we 2:24:51.320 --> 2:24:54.480 don't Underlike you just explain to your kids why would 2:24:54.480 --> 2:24:56.640 it make sense? But I mean, how could they possibly 2:24:56.720 --> 2:24:59.960 know that that's something like a semi truck even exist? 2:25:00.040 --> 2:25:02.120 How could they possibly know that anything could move that 2:25:02.320 --> 2:25:05.280 fast on the road, so we should stop calling them stupid. 2:25:05.520 --> 2:25:08.200 So if you as an academic, like I don't know, 2:25:08.400 --> 2:25:09.960 what do you do you call yourself an academic? I 2:25:10.000 --> 2:25:12.800 don't know. Yeah, I've had trence, Sure, I know what 2:25:12.879 --> 2:25:15.720 you mean. I mean I I don't generally identify myself 2:25:15.760 --> 2:25:19.360 with labels because I generally prefer to identify myself with 2:25:19.480 --> 2:25:21.880 verbs rather than nouns. But yes, I teach at the 2:25:21.959 --> 2:25:31.800 universe the anthropomorphic. The anthropomorphism accusation being that you're training. Um, 2:25:33.400 --> 2:25:37.080 I don't know, like it's one animal. It's just one animal. 2:25:37.080 --> 2:25:39.080 I'm not accusing you of going against your training. I'm 2:25:39.120 --> 2:25:44.400 saying that, well, to do a work like this, no doubt, 2:25:44.760 --> 2:25:49.120 people from your world, from your professional world, we'll look 2:25:49.160 --> 2:25:51.600 at a work like this and maybe without reading it, 2:25:52.080 --> 2:25:54.720 but at the surface examination, it would be that you've 2:25:54.760 --> 2:25:56.959 gone over to the other side. Of course, of course, 2:25:57.120 --> 2:26:01.200 do you care that they think that? Um, I just 2:26:01.440 --> 2:26:04.560 expected it. I knew from that. I mean, I hid 2:26:05.120 --> 2:26:07.560 my relationship with the fox for ages and ages and ages. 2:26:08.480 --> 2:26:12.960 And I remember starting conversations with people that worked in 2:26:13.000 --> 2:26:16.080 the academy with me, and I would say something in 2:26:16.120 --> 2:26:18.320 the middle of a conversation, I might slip in something 2:26:18.360 --> 2:26:22.120 like oh and fox and I and then someone that 2:26:22.240 --> 2:26:25.440 a colleague, a close colleague, would say, just just as 2:26:25.520 --> 2:26:28.040 long as you're not being anthropomorphic, go ahead with your story. 2:26:28.080 --> 2:26:35.240 And you're like, gosh, oh, oh, absolutely a dirty secret, 2:26:36.280 --> 2:26:40.000 secret secret. Absolutely, I mean it's a taboo, it absolutely is. 2:26:40.120 --> 2:26:41.920 So yeah, I mean, I'm ready for it. But I 2:26:42.920 --> 2:26:45.200 understand that I've been listening to that complaint for a 2:26:45.240 --> 2:26:47.600 long time. But you asked if there's a middle ground, 2:26:47.959 --> 2:26:51.080 and of course there is a middle ground. It's just 2:26:51.240 --> 2:26:55.600 to say that there's a less of a separation between 2:26:55.720 --> 2:26:59.160 humans and other animals than we previously believed. I'm not 2:26:59.360 --> 2:27:01.800 saying that Whoman's and other animals have the exact same 2:27:01.840 --> 2:27:05.440 personality in the same emotions. There's so many animals. A 2:27:05.560 --> 2:27:07.840 worm is different than a beetle, is different than a 2:27:07.879 --> 2:27:10.400 bird in every bird species different. I'm just saying that 2:27:10.560 --> 2:27:13.879 we have this huge separation. Humans are way over here 2:27:13.959 --> 2:27:16.240 and all the other animals are there. It can't be 2:27:16.440 --> 2:27:19.920 possible that with the little differences in DNA that there 2:27:19.959 --> 2:27:22.879 are between the humans and chimps, it can't be possible 2:27:23.000 --> 2:27:25.920 that all of these traits that we think only belong 2:27:26.000 --> 2:27:28.920 to humans, and that chimps just simply eat and sleep 2:27:29.040 --> 2:27:32.640 and defecate and have sex. I mean, it's just not possible. 2:27:35.120 --> 2:27:38.480 Some of the things that we believe our only human traits, 2:27:38.840 --> 2:27:41.240 those have to recruit to other animals as well because 2:27:41.280 --> 2:27:43.879 our DNA. I mean, we're all related, as Darwin has 2:27:44.360 --> 2:27:46.640 told us. And if you guys haven't read Darwin yet, 2:27:46.680 --> 2:27:48.400 I there's a lot of plugs for him in my book. 2:27:48.400 --> 2:27:50.920 And I do try to explain as it fits in 2:27:51.080 --> 2:27:53.840 and very gently because the book's not encyclopedic and it's 2:27:53.879 --> 2:27:57.120 not like lecturing. It's a story. But I do have 2:27:57.320 --> 2:27:59.400 to mention Darwin once in a while because I have 2:27:59.520 --> 2:28:04.120 been trained biology and I think Darwin's work is amazing. Uh. 2:28:04.320 --> 2:28:06.520 One way to describe your book, would you say, like, oh, 2:28:06.560 --> 2:28:11.279 it's about a woman's relationship with a fox. Okay, okay, 2:28:11.800 --> 2:28:17.400 what um? What do you like? What did you want 2:28:17.400 --> 2:28:19.440 to accomplish with it? What would be like the deeper 2:28:19.520 --> 2:28:22.600 explanation of what the book is. It's really about how 2:28:23.040 --> 2:28:27.480 humans should fit into nature, how it's part of us 2:28:27.560 --> 2:28:29.480 and we're part of it, and we should stop using 2:28:29.520 --> 2:28:33.560 that old fashioned term mother nature as though it's some 2:28:33.760 --> 2:28:39.880 authoritarian figure. Um, you don't like mother Nature. Nature is 2:28:39.920 --> 2:28:43.120 a community. It's not an individual that we should revere 2:28:43.959 --> 2:28:48.480 and be afraid of an honor. We are part of nature. 2:28:48.920 --> 2:28:51.720 We fit into it, and if we fit into it 2:28:51.800 --> 2:28:55.320 as a community, of course we have responsibilities, but it's 2:28:55.560 --> 2:28:58.680 not something that we should revere and hold up over ourselves. 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:02.279 It's our birthright. We're animals and we should fit ourselves. 2:29:02.600 --> 2:29:04.320 Let you run this by I'm working on a new 2:29:04.400 --> 2:29:07.720 tagline for you know, just my general Brandon what I do. 2:29:08.040 --> 2:29:11.119 And it goes like this, Mother Nature is my co pilot. 2:29:12.160 --> 2:29:16.959 That's good? You like that? Or is that too much 2:29:17.160 --> 2:29:22.160 reverence for Mother Nature? So how about um, how about 2:29:22.520 --> 2:29:27.200 God isn't my co pilot, He's the pilot. That's what 2:29:27.320 --> 2:29:31.119 our piloted Voyagers. When I worked at Voyagers National Park. 2:29:31.280 --> 2:29:34.600 That was that was on the airplane that we We 2:29:34.720 --> 2:29:38.040 had to take ships everywhere because we had Voyagers and 2:29:38.280 --> 2:29:41.280 Apostle Islands and Ile Royal So of course that's how 2:29:41.320 --> 2:29:46.320 you got around. Um, Mother Nature, are you seriously thinking 2:29:46.320 --> 2:29:49.039 about doing that? It's okay, I just I think Mother 2:29:49.160 --> 2:29:53.200 Nature kind of scares I mean, so your mother is 2:29:53.240 --> 2:29:56.000 probably some sweet little old lady. Right, but mother Nature 2:29:56.080 --> 2:29:59.280 does make it seem like, keep in mind, you're honest, 2:29:59.360 --> 2:30:04.360 is pagan? Yeah they are. They on the soulstaces. They 2:30:04.840 --> 2:30:07.279 drag logs around their house and whatnot. What's your business 2:30:08.440 --> 2:30:12.480 a tagline for what? Oh? Just my brand here within 2:30:12.600 --> 2:30:16.120 the meat eater, brandy brand, my personal brand. Oh but 2:30:16.240 --> 2:30:20.480 you're totally within meat eater. Oh yeah, he like yeah, 2:30:20.560 --> 2:30:24.520 he like, um, mother nature. He's like he makes materials. 2:30:24.640 --> 2:30:28.800 He's he like content producer, he like produces ideas and materials. 2:30:28.959 --> 2:30:30.920 You guys use that word mother nature a lot, huh. 2:30:32.520 --> 2:30:38.200 In the book I'm currently writing, which explores children and 2:30:38.360 --> 2:30:43.000 nature and how they relate. Um, I spent a lot 2:30:43.080 --> 2:30:47.480 of time talking about the perils of looking down at nature, 2:30:48.959 --> 2:30:51.240 and I talked a lot about the perils of looking up. 2:30:52.360 --> 2:30:55.800 And I tried to explore what I'm not a master 2:30:55.879 --> 2:30:58.440 at this, but I try to explore ways of how 2:30:58.600 --> 2:31:01.360 to encourage your children to see it like an idea island. 2:31:01.480 --> 2:31:05.160 And that's so right, that's the book. I mean, that's 2:31:05.320 --> 2:31:07.640 a more important part of the book. Are equally important part. 2:31:07.640 --> 2:31:11.199 I mean, obviously, friendship is really important, friendship in general, 2:31:11.280 --> 2:31:13.480 and then inner species friendship. But yeah, I want people 2:31:13.520 --> 2:31:16.520 to feel like they fit in with nature, that it's not. 2:31:16.800 --> 2:31:18.920 I forgot about the fact that some people look down 2:31:18.959 --> 2:31:20.720 in nature, and that I don't know very many people 2:31:20.760 --> 2:31:23.160 that do. But I understand that's so Really that comes 2:31:23.160 --> 2:31:27.560 from something a little bit. When I described looking down 2:31:27.680 --> 2:31:30.280 at it, I think that it would be it manifests 2:31:30.360 --> 2:31:33.600 more is very willing to be dismissive of it, right, 2:31:33.879 --> 2:31:38.120 and that where the most important species in the world, 2:31:38.600 --> 2:31:41.280 and we're in charge of everything, and we have dominion 2:31:41.360 --> 2:31:43.640 over everything. You don't find me people who would say, like, 2:31:43.720 --> 2:31:48.000 I hate nature. No, but an action and action uh, 2:31:48.200 --> 2:31:53.680 And an outside observer might look at certain actions and 2:31:53.879 --> 2:31:58.480 be like, man, that guy is not like nature. Sure, 2:31:58.600 --> 2:32:01.960 all the development that's going on around um Bozeman and 2:32:02.040 --> 2:32:05.040 then the valley and all over Montana. Some people, if 2:32:05.120 --> 2:32:07.720 you say, can we have a little bit of regulation 2:32:07.800 --> 2:32:10.040 here so that we keep a little bit of open space, 2:32:10.120 --> 2:32:12.200 so that we don't kill every living thing that's not 2:32:12.480 --> 2:32:14.640 human or dog or cat, And then people would say, 2:32:15.080 --> 2:32:18.520 would accuse you of not putting humans first. And so 2:32:18.680 --> 2:32:21.080 I understand that. I mean there are people and you'd argue, 2:32:21.160 --> 2:32:25.480 oh no, no, I am I'm thinking about humans right now. Yeah, yeah, 2:32:26.560 --> 2:32:28.560 that's what you're trying to teach your kids. So that 2:32:28.720 --> 2:32:33.000 makes is it a kid's book? No, it's it's for 2:32:33.920 --> 2:32:37.360 growing it's for growing ups. Yeah, but that's right, it's 2:32:37.400 --> 2:32:41.600 for it's for growing ups who have kids in their lives. Yeah. Yeah, 2:32:41.680 --> 2:32:44.760 and my book is that doesn't need to be your kids, 2:32:44.800 --> 2:32:48.800 but like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's that 2:32:48.840 --> 2:32:51.720 would be perfect. I mean, that's that sounds a lot 2:32:51.800 --> 2:32:55.039 like what I'm what I thought I did with Fox exactly, 2:32:55.520 --> 2:32:59.960 helping people to realize we're part of it and don't 2:33:00.040 --> 2:33:02.480 look down don't and definitely don't look up at it either, 2:33:02.640 --> 2:33:05.600 because I mean I have to revere it. We are it. Okay, 2:33:05.680 --> 2:33:10.480 give people the big plug, how to find it, how 2:33:10.520 --> 2:33:12.760 to find more about you? If you don't, do you 2:33:12.800 --> 2:33:15.240 want any found out about I know you're I know 2:33:15.360 --> 2:33:19.480 from from Cindy, you're publisher. I know you're very private. Yeah, 2:33:19.600 --> 2:33:21.160 so you don't even like to do this kind of 2:33:21.200 --> 2:33:24.480 stuff I have, right, this might be my first pot 2:33:24.560 --> 2:33:27.120 I think I've done some pods. This is my first 2:33:27.160 --> 2:33:30.920 big studio thing. Now I have a website, but it 2:33:31.000 --> 2:33:33.280 doesn't have but it won't help you. I mean, I like, 2:33:33.400 --> 2:33:35.160 I just paid for the domain name and it just 2:33:35.240 --> 2:33:38.520 sits there, so there's no point in me giving you that. Um, 2:33:38.760 --> 2:33:43.000 but you can buy the book at Barnes and Noble 2:33:43.560 --> 2:33:47.800 if you're in Bozeman Country bookshelf, and if you're not 2:33:47.920 --> 2:33:50.080 one of those people that wants Jeff Bezos to stay 2:33:50.120 --> 2:33:54.040 in space, you can get it from Amazon. And I think, um, 2:33:55.800 --> 2:33:57.320 I do want to say one more thing. You can 2:33:57.400 --> 2:33:59.880 be really diplomatic. No, I want to say one more thing. 2:34:00.000 --> 2:34:01.959 There's a way you go what you say anywhere books 2:34:02.000 --> 2:34:05.000 are sold. Anywhere books are sold. I wanted to say 2:34:05.040 --> 2:34:06.720 one more thing where you can if you just want 2:34:06.760 --> 2:34:09.640 to listen to it, you can get that audio. It's 2:34:09.680 --> 2:34:11.600 called you can get an audio book. And I just 2:34:11.640 --> 2:34:15.200 found out yesterday you can. Did you do your own read? No? 2:34:15.400 --> 2:34:17.040 But I listened to the girl who didn't read, and 2:34:17.120 --> 2:34:22.119 I listened to they did. But I I a few 2:34:22.200 --> 2:34:27.200 of them. You know, winding wind finally are the same words. Yeah, 2:34:27.240 --> 2:34:28.800 I know, I listened to it. She got windy and 2:34:28.879 --> 2:34:33.760 windy mixed up. Don't you're spelled the same? Don't let 2:34:33.879 --> 2:34:38.080 some person you know I don't. I don't like your 2:34:38.120 --> 2:34:39.880 publishers a dear friend of mine, and I owe a 2:34:40.000 --> 2:34:41.800 lot of my I owe a lot of my career 2:34:41.879 --> 2:34:43.880 in life to her. It was her decision. If it 2:34:44.040 --> 2:34:47.520 was her decision, I'll fight with her about it. If 2:34:47.600 --> 2:34:49.800 they should not have loved that, you should that should 2:34:49.840 --> 2:34:51.520 not have happened. You should read your own damn book. 2:34:51.640 --> 2:34:53.880 You need a professional studio, though, I thought that was 2:34:53.959 --> 2:34:56.039 the deal, and so it was the time of COVID 2:34:56.200 --> 2:34:58.560 that was the problem. It was taped during COVIE. I mean, 2:34:58.600 --> 2:35:00.160 I don't think that was the only problem. M I 2:35:00.200 --> 2:35:02.840 think they never considered having me made it, but we 2:35:02.959 --> 2:35:04.800 did have to hire a guy with it who had 2:35:04.840 --> 2:35:06.560 a student. You might have needed to practice for a 2:35:06.640 --> 2:35:10.400 long time and had a studio. No, I know you 2:35:10.520 --> 2:35:12.720 have to practice because I make videos for my students, 2:35:12.800 --> 2:35:16.840 and you have to keep going over getting repeating everything 2:35:16.920 --> 2:35:19.400 over and over because you noticed you said something wrong 2:35:19.480 --> 2:35:21.760 or there was too much of a pause there and whatever. 2:35:21.920 --> 2:35:25.280 So it takes a long time. No, wait, one more 2:35:25.400 --> 2:35:29.800 thing audio and and the download onto the little machines 2:35:29.879 --> 2:35:31.600 that you can read from. You can do that. I 2:35:31.680 --> 2:35:34.560 just found that out yesterday. So anywhere books are sold, 2:35:34.720 --> 2:35:44.920 anywhere books are sold even Amazon, Amazon, And so that's right, No, 2:35:45.160 --> 2:35:47.880 thanks everybody who buys it for sure. Yeah, I think 2:35:47.920 --> 2:35:53.920 it's more so, Um, you're becoming uh, all of this 2:35:54.080 --> 2:35:58.040 is making you become less of a hermit. Well, do 2:35:58.040 --> 2:36:02.000 you think you're gonna go back into hiding? Not you're hiding. 2:36:02.640 --> 2:36:04.080 Do you think you're going to become do you do 2:36:04.120 --> 2:36:09.720 you imagine? Now I'll being more. I just have plug 2:36:09.800 --> 2:36:13.520 about hermits and such um and you'll read this in 2:36:13.640 --> 2:36:17.760 my book. Also, people who live away from other people. 2:36:18.959 --> 2:36:23.360 We're not trying to hide from people. We don't dislike people. 2:36:23.560 --> 2:36:25.840 We're not trying to get away from people. We just 2:36:26.560 --> 2:36:30.320 love the things that people get rid of. And that's 2:36:30.360 --> 2:36:32.480 why I want to live in a place where I 2:36:32.600 --> 2:36:35.120 can sit outside and watch the badgers and the skunks 2:36:35.160 --> 2:36:37.680 and the eagles and the foxes, and where it's quiet 2:36:38.080 --> 2:36:40.000 and I can hear what I want to hear, like 2:36:40.160 --> 2:36:43.760 the wind, and I don't have to see trucks coming 2:36:43.800 --> 2:36:46.119 by all day long. It's not because I don't like humans. 2:36:46.160 --> 2:36:48.960 It's because I love the things that humans get rid of. 2:36:49.560 --> 2:36:52.520 And if I was really misanthropic, I would live in 2:36:52.560 --> 2:36:57.400 a city. Because if you really dislike humans, then you 2:36:57.520 --> 2:37:00.200 want to live where there's a lot of humans so 2:37:00.400 --> 2:37:02.760 that you can torture them and whatever the hell you 2:37:02.840 --> 2:37:09.520 do around. Yeah. So the bad guys who don't like 2:37:09.680 --> 2:37:12.959 people are the ones that live where there's people, right, 2:37:13.240 --> 2:37:16.840 The people that are really I don't like people, they 2:37:16.959 --> 2:37:20.680 live in cities like the country. Yeah, that's a seed. Yeah, 2:37:20.840 --> 2:37:22.800 it needs work, but that's a good seed of an idea. 2:37:22.840 --> 2:37:27.240 I like that. There's your tagline, n't but I've been 2:37:27.280 --> 2:37:30.360 working on that idea. There's something there, man, I think 2:37:30.400 --> 2:37:34.199 there is for sure, don't you know. It's a compelling point. 2:37:34.520 --> 2:37:37.160 Gonna I'm gonna like land bed and unpack that one. Good. 2:37:37.600 --> 2:37:40.200 That's a good one. I've never thought about humans getting 2:37:40.320 --> 2:37:44.039 rid of silence, but it's true, getting rid of silence. 2:37:44.920 --> 2:37:46.960 It's one of my favorite things about where we live 2:37:47.440 --> 2:37:51.480 is the silence. And there was like a death metal 2:37:51.560 --> 2:37:55.800 band that covers the sound of silence, No Sound of 2:37:56.000 --> 2:38:02.520 Silence Disturbed. The name of the Kathy Raven, the title 2:38:02.600 --> 2:38:05.680 of the book, Easy to Remember, Box and I, Box 2:38:05.760 --> 2:38:09.560 and I and then Carmen van Bianci third appearance on 2:38:09.640 --> 2:38:12.680 the podcast. Her new company will not a company. Her 2:38:12.720 --> 2:38:17.240 new nonprofit will be called Home Range wildlife research. How 2:38:17.280 --> 2:38:19.200 do you How do you do you want people going 2:38:19.240 --> 2:38:21.600 and looking you up on social media and stuff? Or 2:38:21.600 --> 2:38:23.280 do you hate that kind of stuff? I don't have 2:38:23.400 --> 2:38:28.920 any of that. Good for you. Let's competition for my account. 2:38:30.080 --> 2:38:33.800 Um do you care to have people find you? Well? Uh, 2:38:34.200 --> 2:38:36.680 we do have a website home range dot org and 2:38:36.760 --> 2:38:38.720 that's the way to go. You don't want them like 2:38:38.800 --> 2:38:41.640 emailing you and stuff like that. Oh they can email me, 2:38:42.040 --> 2:38:43.600 and not so badly that you want to give out 2:38:43.640 --> 2:38:46.120 your email address. I wouldn't do that. Yeah, probably not. 2:38:46.560 --> 2:38:50.200 There's got to be contact us at home range dot org. True, Yes, 2:38:50.280 --> 2:38:52.400 I have a home range email. Oh there you go 2:38:53.360 --> 2:38:55.200 and you check. So someone wants to reach out to 2:38:55.200 --> 2:38:57.360 you and say, hey, I got a study idea for you. Yeah, 2:38:57.600 --> 2:39:00.400 I'm a budding young biologist on your job. Yep, I 2:39:00.440 --> 2:39:02.280 got a wolf story to tell you about. Or I 2:39:02.320 --> 2:39:05.080 got a good jillion dollars and I'm looking to put 2:39:05.160 --> 2:39:08.720 it in a nonprofit especially those Ye Yes, home range 2:39:08.800 --> 2:39:13.560 dot org. Okay, fox and I home range dot org 2:39:13.640 --> 2:39:16.640 two very different things, but both worthwhile checking out. Thank 2:39:16.680 --> 2:39:17.160 you everybody,