Speaker 1: Warning, this podcast candad spoilers for the finale of and
Speaker 1: Or and some minor spoilers for the film Rogue one
Speaker 1: Book of It. Hello, my name is Jason Cantepsion and
Speaker 1: welcome to x ray Vision, the Cricket podcast, where we
Speaker 1: dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.
Speaker 1: In this episode, it's the big and Or finale episode.
Speaker 1: We're gonna be discussing the and Or finale, and the
Speaker 1: Airlock and the Hive Mind more and Or with Atlantic
Speaker 1: staff writer Adam Sewer, who wrote a really really interesting
Speaker 1: piece in The Atlantic about the show, and in nerd Out,
Speaker 1: Liz theorizes about an and Or character's possible connection to
Speaker 1: the Force And of course, if you want to jump around,
Speaker 1: check the show notes for time stamps Enemy Today. She's
Speaker 1: the only one that knows what happened on Canari. She
Speaker 1: is a daughter of Ferris. She knows all about Sagarera's extremism,
Speaker 1: but she's not gonna talk about it anywhere else but here.
Speaker 1: She is the great, the powerful Rosie Night, Rosie, how
Speaker 1: are you?
Speaker 2: I'm good? Tell her it's true. I saw was right.
Speaker 2: I just need to say that she was apologist. He
Speaker 2: was always right.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about this at length because he continues
Speaker 1: to write he was right early, he's still right, and
Speaker 1: he will continue to be right. Yep, and he just
Speaker 1: does not get the credit he deserves. How is your Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2: It was a very good chill time. I ate food
Speaker 2: with my friends and I watched a lot of movies
Speaker 2: and worked on a very cool secret project. I can't
Speaker 2: talk about proper break, but it was nice to just
Speaker 2: be able to give slow down.
Speaker 1: Can you give like one very very vague hint.
Speaker 2: It is a comic book format. It's in the comic
Speaker 2: book formats. That's the end I can give you. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I missed, I missed being hand talking to you. But
Speaker 2: it was is nice to to just take some time
Speaker 2: and nice to be able to like really dig in
Speaker 2: to and Or and kind of watch it and take
Speaker 2: in that unreal finale before we kind of dig into
Speaker 2: it here.
Speaker 1: I had I had family in town. Oh lovely went
Speaker 1: all around. I baked bread. We realized that we realized
Speaker 1: that one of our family members who had COVID like
Speaker 1: two months ago and has been like, oh, my taste
Speaker 1: hasn't come back. My taste hasn't come back stuff tastes weird.
Speaker 1: We realized when they were here that what was going
Speaker 1: on is their taste had come back at a certain point.
Speaker 1: They're just eating bad food.
Speaker 2: Where you will in La and you will eat some
Speaker 2: food and you will know the flavors will be there
Speaker 2: as soon as you know.
Speaker 1: We like, ordered some Italian from Jonavitti's and and immediately
Speaker 1: it was like this Pesto's delicious. Holy holy cow. Like
Speaker 1: what looks like the taste is back, ladies, and that's wonderful.
Speaker 1: I'll have it back. Okay, let's get into it. Let's
Speaker 1: get into the andor finale. It's runoff time. Early voting
Speaker 1: starts Monday, November twenty eighth for the December sixth election.
Speaker 1: If you're a Georgia voter, head over to vote Save
Speaker 1: America dot com to make your plan and if you
Speaker 1: want to help out, no matter where you live, you
Speaker 1: can donate and find remote and in person volunteer opportunities
Speaker 1: to make sure the Warnock campaign as the resources it needs.
Speaker 1: Fifty one senators means the difference between a true majority
Speaker 1: or being faced with another two years of roadblocks like
Speaker 1: problem Children, Kristen Cinema Boo and Joe Manchin Boo make
Speaker 1: sure that every Georgia voter can make their voice heard
Speaker 1: again at Vote Save America dot com. We're stepping out
Speaker 1: of the airlock into the streets of Ferrik as the
Speaker 1: mournful but also inspiring funeral March is playing, and we're
Speaker 1: here to talk about the finale of and or Rix Road.
Speaker 1: Written by Tony Gilroy, directed by Benjamin Karen gron Feryx.
Speaker 1: It is the day of Marv's funeral. Deirdre arrives on planet.
Speaker 1: She meets with all her imperial underlings, and you know,
Speaker 1: takes a peek into Bix's cell through the porthole. Elsewhere,
Speaker 1: Zen meets with Brasso after Brasso's shift, and Zen tells
Speaker 1: Brasso that, hey, I just got to call from Cassian.
Speaker 1: What that's right? I think Cassio Cassian's coming home. He
Speaker 1: knows that Marva died. Meanwhile, the ISB is all over Ferix.
Speaker 1: They're crawling all over the streets, keeping a very close
Speaker 1: eye on Brasso. They're watching this this interaction happen. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: also watching this interaction happen is Synta of the al
Speaker 1: Donnie Crue. They are waiting also for Cassian to show
Speaker 1: up because they would like to kill Cassian and close
Speaker 1: that loose end. Later, Nerchi, the Frexian junk dealer, who
Speaker 1: is now informing to the ISB with absolute alacrity, is
Speaker 1: giving up every He can't wait to give it all up,
Speaker 1: wants to do it, wants to get off this this
Speaker 1: dust bowl of a planet. Is meeting Zan for a
Speaker 1: drink and he's like, you know, He's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's got to be who's going to place Marva's Stone,
Speaker 1: And that's got to be really eating at Cassian and
Speaker 1: that's got to be so tough. And she is plays
Speaker 1: this very very, very very candily because he can kind
Speaker 1: of tell that Zan has some information. But then Nerchi
Speaker 1: covers it up by saying, Hey, if you know anything,
Speaker 1: keep it to yourself, don't tell me. But like can
Speaker 1: tell by the way that Zan is like stewing over
Speaker 1: his drink and clearly wants to say something that he
Speaker 1: knows something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is a great bit of foreshadowing too.
Speaker 2: Who will be there to place Marva's Stone. Don't worry.
Speaker 2: The stone will come in use in one of the
Speaker 2: most memorable scenes and you will see who places it
Speaker 2: and where they place it, and it's so good because
Speaker 2: that line just gets me.
Speaker 1: Elsewhere, we see Wilman, who is the son of Solomon,
Speaker 1: a man who was previously in the series tortured by
Speaker 1: the ISB. We see him assembling some kind of device
Speaker 1: which we take to be a bomb on Coruscant. Mon
Speaker 1: is waiting in the limo for Paren. He gets in,
Speaker 1: they go off to ride off together, and then Man
Speaker 1: starts this argument with Paren where she confronts him about
Speaker 1: his gambling. How long have you been doing it? I
Speaker 1: can't believe you're gambling again. If you want to do that,
Speaker 1: you know, go to Canto bite to do that, but
Speaker 1: don't do that here, and don't lie to me about
Speaker 1: it it and parents like, what the fuck are you
Speaker 1: talking about?
Speaker 2: Like why are you guying on about? He's like many
Speaker 2: he does many things wrong, this man, But gambling is
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like I kind.
Speaker 1: Of clean that. I've cleaned that up. I haven't been gambling.
Speaker 1: It's certainly not, on course not. Somebody is getting in
Speaker 1: your ear. They're trying to tear you down by attacking me.
Speaker 1: And anyway where would I get the money? And and
Speaker 1: Mon Is like, that's the thing that scares me the most.
Speaker 1: And of course all of this whole discussion is is
Speaker 1: for the benefit of Clorus, who man knows their driver, Clorus,
Speaker 1: who man knows it is an ISB agent slash informer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's setting up her husband to basically take the
Speaker 2: fall for whenever this audit comes around.
Speaker 1: She's laying the right where my husband's My husband gambled
Speaker 1: it away.
Speaker 2: He gambled it away. And you know what, you know,
Speaker 2: I didn't just come up with this as an excuse,
Speaker 2: because didn't my driver. I tell you that six months
Speaker 2: ago right now, And.
Speaker 1: It's actually super super smart that said, we know there's
Speaker 1: an and or season two, and you have to feel
Speaker 1: that this is not a permanent fix. Like this will
Speaker 1: buy her some time. Sure as they untangle this and
Speaker 1: try to figure it out, maybe follow Parent around, you know,
Speaker 1: like this will force the ICEP to spend some assets
Speaker 1: on Parent and see if he is really gambling. But
Speaker 1: ultimately the ISB will run this down and will figure
Speaker 1: out that that's not.
Speaker 2: Especially because even if they don't figure out what she's
Speaker 2: actually been using the money for, they will know that
Speaker 2: she got the loan from Davos. They will find that
Speaker 2: out at some point and the question is how reliable
Speaker 2: is that man now that their families are connected through
Speaker 2: their children. Is he going to protect them? Will he
Speaker 2: sell them one down the river? This could be I
Speaker 2: think a big thread that we see in season two.
Speaker 2: Does Mon get isolated from her wealthy family and her background,
Speaker 2: then does that radicalize her or does she have to
Speaker 2: just set allow people that she loves to protect us
Speaker 2: status so that she can stay in that place for
Speaker 2: spray a rebellion.
Speaker 1: I wonder there is a great scene in the Great
Speaker 1: Series Rebels. I want to say it's like season two
Speaker 1: or three where Mon gives the speech that basically announces
Speaker 1: that the rebellion exists.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: She gives that video speech where she's like, Hey, we
Speaker 1: have to fight the Empire. I am denouncing the Emperor today,
Speaker 1: I am resigning from the Senate. If you want to
Speaker 1: fight the Empire, come meet us in space and let's
Speaker 1: do that, and let's do this basically founding that the
Speaker 1: foundational moment of the rebel alliance. I wonder if we
Speaker 1: get a version, not like a retcon per se, but
Speaker 1: if we see that from the other side, because that
Speaker 1: would be pretty fun to I think see the Tony
Speaker 1: Gilroy version of the monds Like.
Speaker 2: That's why I was going to say, come out one.
Speaker 2: We know how much the shows and the animated series
Speaker 2: have kind of leant into each other and become very
Speaker 2: and entwined, especially because Filoni's behind a lot of the
Speaker 2: other live action shows. It will be very interesting as
Speaker 2: we move forward towards the time that we know in
Speaker 2: the main Star Wars timeline to see how those moments intersect,
Speaker 2: and to see what Tony translates from Rebels and Clone
Speaker 2: War was honestly shows that without which and are still
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't exist because those shows were what made Star
Speaker 2: Wars television a viable possibility. But like you say, it
Speaker 2: would be fun to see Tony Gilroy translating some of
Speaker 2: those moments from what many people still essentially see as
Speaker 2: like a kid's TV show. In this the least kid's
Speaker 2: friendly Star Wars show of all time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Back on, feryx Vell meets her partner the safe house
Speaker 1: since to updates vel about all the movements of the
Speaker 1: ISB agents, various ISBA agents around town. They know they
Speaker 1: have to be very careful. She is ready to kill
Speaker 1: Cassian and or this.
Speaker 2: She is a business. She is not about it, Santa
Speaker 2: is about it.
Speaker 1: She is ready to pop him to save the network
Speaker 1: as soon as he shows his face. And yes, you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. Vell throughout this episode and the previous episode
Speaker 1: is really troubled by this. Whatever. She just gets a
Speaker 1: vibe from Cassian, not to mention, he was really the
Speaker 1: most competent member of the Al Dani, Like, they would
Speaker 1: not have pulled it off if not for him, and
Speaker 1: so the idea of double crossing him, stabbing him in
Speaker 1: the back in order to keep him out of imperial
Speaker 1: hands really really bothers her. You can you can really
Speaker 1: really tell?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think as well, like the the privileged
Speaker 2: background that she comes from, ASM's sista, she even though
Speaker 2: she wants to leave it behind her, it is the
Speaker 2: safety of it I think is drawing her back. She
Speaker 2: wants to she did the Al Dannie, Wasn't that enough?
Speaker 2: She doesn't really know that it's a continuous struggle, whereas
Speaker 2: Cinta is very much in the mindset of like, I
Speaker 2: will do what has to be done for as long
Speaker 2: as it needs to be done. More of that Looth
Speaker 2: in school absolutely.
Speaker 1: Cassian arrives back on Ferris and he finds Clem's brick
Speaker 1: in the streets. Marv's partner is essentially the man who
Speaker 1: raised him as a father, and he remembers a moment
Speaker 1: where Clem was teaching him to, you know, how to
Speaker 1: clean salvage equipment. And there's this wonderful, like small moment
Speaker 1: of like see, like most people wouldn't even look to
Speaker 1: see what's actually underneath all of this stuff. And he's
Speaker 1: thinking about that, and then he heads over to Bix's
Speaker 1: shop and she's not there, but Pegla is there. And
Speaker 1: it's from Peg that Cassian learns that Bix is in
Speaker 1: the hands of the isb Cassian kind of a steel himself,
Speaker 1: goes off and listens to some of Nemeck's manifesto and
Speaker 1: it is elect It is truly like electrifying stuff, the
Speaker 1: kind of stuff you can't believe that.
Speaker 2: Shall we read it? I have it?
Speaker 1: Yes, read it?
Speaker 2: Okay. In Star Wars, there will be times when the
Speaker 2: struggle seems impossible. I know this already alone, unsure, dwarfed
Speaker 2: by the scale of the enemy. Remember this freedom is
Speaker 2: a pure idea. It occurs spontaneously and without instruction. Random
Speaker 2: acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There
Speaker 2: are whole armies, battalions that have no idea that they
Speaker 2: have already enlisted in the cause. Yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 2: incredible stuff, and the performance is so great, like it
Speaker 2: just it's the first of two incredible speeches of this finale.
Speaker 2: This one is my favorite. But it gets you so good.
Speaker 1: It really just makes you think. Obviously, in recent years,
Speaker 1: Man's role in the rebellion has been it was always
Speaker 1: clear that she was incredibly important, but with Rebels and
Speaker 1: Rogue One and some of the books and stuff like,
Speaker 1: it's become clear what a pivotal character she was. And
Speaker 1: then it's also clear that supporting her are people like
Speaker 1: Nemeck who provided we're seeing a lot of the philosophical
Speaker 1: framework for the struggle, and people like Marva who provided
Speaker 1: a lot of like the emotional impetus and inspiration for
Speaker 1: the struggle, who we just are never going to hear about.
Speaker 1: They're certainly never going to get a medal. They are
Speaker 1: not like revered heroes of the rebellion, and it is
Speaker 1: really amazing to learn about them here. And also the
Speaker 1: other thing I was thinking about is like that the
Speaker 1: idea of like freedom, you know, being an organic and
Speaker 1: natural idea that just springs up when you are restrained,
Speaker 1: when you feel less free, you want to struggle against that.
Speaker 1: That's natural. I've been thinking a lot about that with this,
Speaker 1: with this story, and thinking a lot about how, you know,
Speaker 1: something we talk about a lot, which is bad guys
Speaker 1: don't think about themselves as bad guys. They think they're
Speaker 1: doing good. I remember, you know, reading in any number
Speaker 1: of histories of the Civil War, reading about how, for
Speaker 1: you know, the Southern slavery class ahead of the Civil War,
Speaker 1: freedom slavery was absolutely in line with their definition of
Speaker 1: freedom because it meant freeing themselves from ever having to
Speaker 1: do manual labor, which they saw as like work, not
Speaker 1: befitting like gentlemen.
Speaker 2: And and.
Speaker 1: It just has me that that idea and Nemics manifesto
Speaker 1: just has me thinking about how much these kind of
Speaker 1: powerful but amorphous ideas like freedom oppression can be aimed
Speaker 1: and reconstituted and targeted in a million different ways by
Speaker 1: people who are really being sincere but are also like
Speaker 1: completely diluted. Yeah, in the true meaning of the word
Speaker 1: freedom or the nature of oppression. I mean, we're dealing
Speaker 1: with a lot of that in our world today.
Speaker 2: And I think there has been readings from certain different
Speaker 2: groups of and or that supports their ideas of like
Speaker 2: what freedom is to do with like January sixth and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. What I love is the speech is
Speaker 2: much longer, right, And there's this line that Nemic says
Speaker 2: where he says, the imperial need for control is so
Speaker 2: desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort,
Speaker 2: It breaks, it leaks, Authority is brittle, and oppression is
Speaker 2: the mask of fear. And I love that because that's
Speaker 2: when it does that Tony Gilroy thing where there's this
Speaker 2: vagary to it. But then you do the twist where
Speaker 2: it's like we are talking about fascists here, and the
Speaker 2: reason they want to oppress you, and the reason they
Speaker 2: have to fight so hard to do it, and the
Speaker 2: reason they need to be militarized and have weapons is
Speaker 2: because it's so unnatural what they want for other people
Speaker 2: to not be free, you know. And I love that idea,
Speaker 2: and also, you know, talking about kind of the current
Speaker 2: politics of what translates here. This is also very interesting
Speaker 2: because one of the most regular talked about kind of
Speaker 2: points about protests is something that people can't stop is
Speaker 2: multiple tiny protests all over a city or a country.
Speaker 2: If you have one big protest, it's easy to stop it.
Speaker 2: If you have multiple rebellions or tiny gatherings, there are
Speaker 2: never enough people to stop it. So it's very interesting
Speaker 2: once again to see Tony Gilroy bring that contemporary idea
Speaker 2: of protests and rebellion and put it into the context
Speaker 2: of Star Wars.
Speaker 1: Elsewhere, Deirdre is running her team through the ISB her
Speaker 1: plan base, her action plan for Marve's funeral. They're going
Speaker 1: to have Rickx Road covered from every angle, but no
Speaker 1: snipers because Deirdre wants him taken alive. Okay, they need
Speaker 1: a living witness, and that's a big deal. Now. I
Speaker 1: think this is going to be something when we go
Speaker 1: to season two that Deirdre is going to be called
Speaker 1: to the carpet about. I think that I would expect
Speaker 1: in season two that one Deirdre is going to blame
Speaker 1: other people for the failure to uh to to grab
Speaker 1: Cassie and or one and identify the contact. And two
Speaker 1: she is going to be blamed herself for not having
Speaker 1: enough lethal force ready to like put this whole thing down.
Speaker 2: Which is really funny. She's not doing it because she's
Speaker 2: some kind person who doesn't want to kill people. She
Speaker 2: wants control and to understand the greater plans of the rebellion.
Speaker 2: So she's like, well, we need people who know what's
Speaker 2: going on, so I can torture them and ask them
Speaker 2: what's going on. But it's probably going to be played
Speaker 2: out because we've seen this misogynistic hierarchy within the empire.
Speaker 2: It's probably going to be played out as if she's
Speaker 2: a woman, she couldn't do what needed to be done,
Speaker 2: she couldn't bring the lethal force to control the rebels.
Speaker 1: Certainly, Blevin of the ISB is waiting in the wings
Speaker 1: for the downfall of yes of Deirdre. We go to Corroussant,
Speaker 1: go to ISB headquarters. Chlorus, the driver is informing Blevin
Speaker 1: about this argument that mon and Paren had and they're
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what does this mean. Then Blevin
Speaker 1: is called away because the Kreeger raid is happening. The
Speaker 1: Kreeger operation is happening right now, and the result of
Speaker 1: that operation is Anton Kreeger and his entire crew of
Speaker 1: f men thy men are gone. There there are no survivors,
Speaker 1: no one to interrogate. Now Deirdre is pretty wound up
Speaker 1: about this, and she is on the horn with major
Speaker 1: part of Gas and she's like, you know, someone's got
Speaker 1: to say that we're never going to unravel this thing
Speaker 1: if we don't have someone to talk to. Somebody's got
Speaker 1: to be in the room saying that. Part of is like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you don't get it. This is about uh, wiping the
Speaker 1: taste of Aldanni out of the Emperor's mouth, because if
Speaker 1: the Emperor is feeling anxious, none of us will be
Speaker 1: able to do our jobs. So you you want prisoners,
Speaker 1: You want to be able to have a conversation about
Speaker 1: the way this operation is being run. Find the contact,
Speaker 1: find Axis aka Luthen who they don't know who that
Speaker 1: person is. Elsewhere the isb that is watching Brasso realize
Speaker 1: they've been fooled. It's Brasso that they're watching hanging out
Speaker 1: at Marv's. It's actually a Brasso double he Brasso himself
Speaker 1: has slipped down into the sewers where he's meeting with Cassian.
Speaker 1: Brasso tells Cassian that Marva wanted him to know that
Speaker 1: none of this is his fault and that she loved him,
Speaker 1: and very touchingly, she said she told Brasso to tell
Speaker 1: Cassian that she loved him more than anything he could
Speaker 1: ever do wrong, which is such a powerful, a powerfully
Speaker 1: Star Wars sentiment in which, you know, I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a story in which we actively forgive people who
Speaker 1: take part in the wiping out of planets and the
Speaker 1: massacring of children, and so that is just a very
Speaker 1: very Star Wars thing to utter. Brasso promises that he
Speaker 1: will take care of Marva's stone, and boy does he. He doesn't.
Speaker 2: He takes care of v and he uses it to
Speaker 2: take care of business.
Speaker 1: Luthen makes content with Vell just out on the street.
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, wearing his fifth best. Yeah, he's not like
Speaker 2: a black heerd. He's looking very villainous.
Speaker 1: Let's can we talk about this, Yeah, Tony Gilroy, of
Speaker 1: course from Rogue one even give us any Jedi in that.
Speaker 1: But certainly we would assume that Chiroot is.
Speaker 2: At least more sensitive.
Speaker 1: I wonder, I mean, clearly, the robes make you think Jedi,
Speaker 1: make you think sith. I wonder if lucent is one sensitive.
Speaker 2: And the Kaiber crystal, he definitely has a connection to
Speaker 2: the force, to the ideas of the Jedi, even if
Speaker 2: the word are not is not being you know, uttered
Speaker 2: and I know that our guest Adam here he has
Speaker 2: some thoughts on that too that are quite like theory focused.
Speaker 2: So but definitely the robes, they're meant to make you
Speaker 2: think like, oh, I mean, he's wearing black robes, he's
Speaker 2: got them over his face. Could just be a manifestation
Speaker 2: of the way he sees himself. We know he sees
Speaker 2: himself as the enemy, as someone who's fallen, who's done
Speaker 2: these terrible things. But the Kaiber Crystal, you know, the
Speaker 2: sky Kaiber. I'm thinking.
Speaker 1: Maybe he's like a Jeda native.
Speaker 2: I do want I wonder about you too. I wonder if
Speaker 2: there's something some connection to that space or just maybe
Speaker 2: a friend or a family member who was forced sensitive,
Speaker 2: who was a Jedi, who knows. I'm very interested because
Speaker 2: they really play into it in this episode with the
Speaker 2: way that they dress Luthor, and we know that costuming
Speaker 2: in Star Wars is really a coincidence. Lots of thought
Speaker 2: goes into that.
Speaker 1: So Luthen tells Velle that oh, this is perfect, that
Speaker 1: there's so many isb here, and she's like, what the
Speaker 1: fuck are you talking about? And he's like, listen, we
Speaker 1: we don't have to hunt Cassi and we let them
Speaker 1: do it, and then when they find him, we kill
Speaker 1: him before they can take them away to interrogram. It's
Speaker 1: very very easy. Now, let's go to the hotel where
Speaker 1: we can wait them out. Then the bell tower starts
Speaker 1: a clanging. It's the funeral. The funeral is starting. The
Speaker 1: marching band, which has been warming up, now begins to
Speaker 1: play their funeral dirge. The parade is moving slowly through
Speaker 1: the streets. There is Brasso holding marve Stone in front
Speaker 1: of him. B two Emo is rolling along with him,
Speaker 1: various other notable figures from Ferrexian Society or i'll here.
Speaker 1: Imperial officers are getting very very anxious. Any kind of
Speaker 1: display of of of the people, any kind of mask gathering,
Speaker 1: is a thing that they're just going to be very
Speaker 1: very nervous about it.
Speaker 2: And they're definitely starting to realize that they're outnumbered, which
Speaker 2: is the way. There's always more people than that are
Speaker 2: a practice. There's a reason just whether people are together
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: There's a reason they're building a death star, and that's
Speaker 1: because they don't have enough people to put everywhere in
Speaker 1: the galaxy. Cassian is watching all of this unfold from
Speaker 1: his hiding space, and he spots Luthen in the crowd. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Nurci makes who believes that he has found where Cassian
Speaker 1: is hiding, and in fact he has makes contact with
Speaker 1: his imperial Hando is like, okay, pretend to arrest me.
Speaker 1: I'll take it, and he gets arrested, and then he's like, listen,
Speaker 1: I know where Cassian is. I want double the reward
Speaker 1: right now, and you get me off the planet immediately,
Speaker 1: like no waiting, no passco, no next week, next month,
Speaker 1: I want to go now. Deetra and the is bgoons.
Speaker 1: They prepare to move in on Cassian's location, but again
Speaker 1: Deetro's like, alive, alive, alive a lot? How many times
Speaker 1: I had to say we take him alive? The funeral
Speaker 1: parade stops Brasso and be moved to the head of
Speaker 1: the column in her cell. There's this wonderful moment where
Speaker 1: Bix is kind of like hearing the funeral music, and
Speaker 1: she's like slowly kind of like stirring. Of course, she's
Speaker 1: been like heavily traumatized by the torture she's been she's
Speaker 1: been submitted to, and all of a sudden, the band
Speaker 1: changes to like an upbeat marching number and the column
Speaker 1: begins moving with a real purpose. Death troopers now are
Speaker 1: closing in on Cassian's hiding place, but he's not there.
Speaker 1: He slipped back into the sewers. And now the crowd
Speaker 1: is chanting Stone and Sky, Stone and Sky, Stone and
Speaker 1: Sky and then b pops a little hatch on the
Speaker 1: top of his little head and begins to play a
Speaker 1: hologram message which Marva recorded some time before she passed,
Speaker 1: and she talks about how much she loves Feryx, the
Speaker 1: culture of Farex, what makes it important Feryx's kind of
Speaker 1: positioning in the Empire is this kind of like place
Speaker 1: of salvage where they've all just kind of ignored the
Speaker 1: Empire for all these years. Like they come and you know,
Speaker 1: they do their business here, and then they leave and
Speaker 1: we try to forget about it. And she says that
Speaker 1: she wishes she had done it differently, that she can't
Speaker 1: forget it about it anymore, and that she wants the
Speaker 1: people of Pheryx to not ignore their feelings about the Empire.
Speaker 1: They need to rise up, they need to resist the Empire.
Speaker 1: She says, I want Ferris to continue. We've been sleeping,
Speaker 1: we've had each other, and they left us alone. We
Speaker 1: took their money and they ignored us. And then she says,
Speaker 1: fight the empire, and then all of a sudden, the
Speaker 1: imperial officers they step in to try and break this up,
Speaker 1: and Bee gets overturned and when it's people, and when
Speaker 1: people see be overturned, they fucking lose it.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's the funniest shit. Yeah, that I
Speaker 2: want to go down in Song's history. Marva gives this
Speaker 2: speech and she's really like, she's talking about all the
Speaker 2: funerals she's seen. This is a place that's paved with
Speaker 2: funeral stones because so many people have died, and every
Speaker 2: time it made her a little bit more angry at
Speaker 2: the Empire. But really, now she needs people to fight.
Speaker 2: She gives this rousing speech and people are getting jostled,
Speaker 2: they're Joscelyn.
Speaker 4: But it's not until an imperial officer kicks over Bee.
Speaker 1: How heck dare you?
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, what the fuck? And will I need it
Speaker 2: to go down in history that this rebellion on Pharik
Speaker 2: is not because somebody put hands on B two Emo and.
Speaker 5: Everyone was like absolutely not, yes, absolutely not, it's how
Speaker 5: fucking dare you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Brasso, he's the most pissed. He just he runs
Speaker 2: straight up there. He's got marves for your north Stone
Speaker 2: and he's beautiful. He just bricks and Imperial office right
Speaker 2: in the head, so beautiful, and it all kicks off.
Speaker 1: Cassian is at the hotel. He finds Bicks. She's in
Speaker 1: a terrible fucking state. Meanwhile, out in the street, the
Speaker 1: Imperial shock Troopers, the Riot troopers are beginning to buckle.
Speaker 1: And it's at that moment when it seems like it's
Speaker 1: unclear whether the Empire is going to be able to
Speaker 1: get control this situation or where the Riot is going
Speaker 1: to break through that Willman hurls whatever it was he
Speaker 1: was he was building it and indeed is a bomb,
Speaker 1: and it explodes. Several stormtroopers go down. Their vehicle is
Speaker 1: also damaged and there gets overturned. Their box of grenades
Speaker 1: cooks off, and now more explosions are rocking the street,
Speaker 1: and the storm troopers just open fire on the crowd.
Speaker 1: They're being just like gunning everybody down. Brasso drags woman
Speaker 1: to safety. Zan gets shot down. Rip Zan, who just
Speaker 1: was a good friend to Cassian, was really holding it
Speaker 1: down and never you know, had his own things going on.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, made took necessary
Speaker 1: risks to remain on the side of justice, and he
Speaker 1: dies here along with what we can only assume to
Speaker 1: be probably dozens of people in the explosion of the
Speaker 1: ensuing gunfight. It's surely dozens and dozens of Fhrexians. We're
Speaker 1: gunned down here. Meanwhile, Cinta is running around in the
Speaker 1: streets in isbh and who kind of like figures out
Speaker 1: that she's up to no good, stops her. She stabs
Speaker 1: him to death. Cassian fights his way out of the hotel.
Speaker 1: He sees that Nurci is probably killed in one of
Speaker 1: the explosions that happened. Yeah, it's clear.
Speaker 2: I have that feeling the classic like he could have,
Speaker 2: because we see the explosion happen and we see him
Speaker 2: get knocked down and he's laying down. He looks dead.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, maybe he's not dead. This hasn't had
Speaker 2: a great record of killing people other than black characters,
Speaker 2: so I'm hoping maybe he's gone, like learn his lesson,
Speaker 2: and but I think there's something to be said. You know,
Speaker 2: I was on the La Comic Con podcast and Hector
Speaker 2: Navarro said this really like thing that I thought was
Speaker 2: really heartbreaking, but it really got me where I was like,
Speaker 2: even the people trying to escape, who will do anything
Speaker 2: to escape? If you side with the Empire, You're still
Speaker 2: gonna die. That's like the most fucked up thing. So
Speaker 2: like he tried, he betrayed his friends, and what for
Speaker 2: to end up maybe dead on the floor. It's like
Speaker 2: lots of deaths happening rip to a lot of people.
Speaker 1: Not to mention, I mean this is jumping ahead, but
Speaker 1: you have to assume that once the Empire gets control
Speaker 1: of this situation, and by control that probably means hundreds,
Speaker 1: if not thousands, gunned down, yeah, dead, hundreds if not thousands,
Speaker 1: put in prison and interrogated. And then, as super producer
Speaker 1: Saul is saying in the chat, martial law and an
Speaker 1: occupation of significant size, you then wonder, like, what is
Speaker 1: the state of Feryx when we come back in season two?
Speaker 1: It is probably because even if it exists, right, if
Speaker 1: they didn't use it as a test case for the
Speaker 1: for the Death Star, which is not operational yet, does
Speaker 1: in what state is it? If it even exists? That
Speaker 1: I'm sure will be heartbreaking As all this riot is
Speaker 1: popping off, Deirdre gets clabbered by a rock. It's wonderful.
Speaker 1: She goes down.
Speaker 2: It looks like she's about to get torn apot by
Speaker 2: the people of fer I really thought she was coming
Speaker 2: to an end and oust feel very good about it.
Speaker 1: I was feeling great about it until she is rescued
Speaker 1: by our terrible friend Cyril Karn, who historide out here.
Speaker 1: Uh and yeah, you know, I've seen people like frame
Speaker 1: their quote unquote relationship as like Cyril is quote in
Speaker 1: love with Deirdre.
Speaker 6: He's not.
Speaker 2: He's a star love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a star. This is a toxic relationship. He
Speaker 1: is in He is just enamored with anyone who is
Speaker 1: wielding power. He wants to feel power, power, and he
Speaker 1: wants to be close to that. It's not necessarily about
Speaker 1: Deirdre personally, it's about what she represents and he is
Speaker 1: not a well man.
Speaker 2: It's very it's going to be very interesting, slash scary
Speaker 2: to see where that goes in season two, because he
Speaker 2: pulls her aside, he saves her, and she's like, oh,
Speaker 2: I guess I should say thank you, and she's sort
Speaker 2: of still scared. But they're all close, pressed up together,
Speaker 2: and this is going to be someone that she's gonna
Speaker 2: have to trust I mean, how are they going to
Speaker 2: get off Pheris? Is this going to be the kind
Speaker 2: of situation where we start the second season straight afterwards?
Speaker 2: Is there going to be a time jump if we
Speaker 2: have to see them escape? There is a potential that
Speaker 2: she's going to have to rely on Cyril. But we
Speaker 2: know that Cyril is a horrible person and he's a
Speaker 2: very toxic person from a very toxic household. He does
Speaker 2: not respect women. I imagine that whatever that relationship becomes
Speaker 2: in the future, it's not going to end well for
Speaker 2: Deirdre because that's a man who he wants to be
Speaker 2: close to power because he wants it, not because he respects.
Speaker 1: How to mention you wonder again we're jumping ahead a
Speaker 1: little bit to the conversation, but I do wonder if
Speaker 1: Deirdre does undergo some sort of downfall because of her
Speaker 1: failure and this whole fair.
Speaker 2: Expert, would Cyril sell her out?
Speaker 1: Would Cyril once sell her out? Or do they team
Speaker 1: up to continue the investigation either on their own, or
Speaker 1: does she or does she go to the ISBN say Hey,
Speaker 1: this super super toxic weirdo really really helped me out
Speaker 1: and he's really driven and maybe give him an ISB
Speaker 1: application and I'll vouch for him.
Speaker 2: So Chris just super producer. Chris just put in the
Speaker 2: chat that Tony Rris is going to be like a
Speaker 2: year time jump. So I actually, of all the options
Speaker 2: that you just laid out there, I think it's very
Speaker 2: likely that in a year we either see them in
Speaker 2: two places, Cyril very high up in the ISB at
Speaker 2: Didra's side, or post that downfall, and they're both kind
Speaker 2: of in this folly you do insane quest to take
Speaker 2: down the rebels in a very violent, toxic way. So
Speaker 2: either way, it's going to be interesting. I was rooting
Speaker 2: for Deirdre to die, but I've never heard of her
Speaker 2: in the later you know, I'll always be very happy
Speaker 2: where I'm like in the future. I'm like, look, I
Speaker 2: know the canon of Star Wars and guess who I
Speaker 2: never heard of Ddra, So that just means I can
Speaker 2: hope she dies.
Speaker 1: She'll be dead, and you know she was certainly we
Speaker 1: don't see her, you know, running around at the side
Speaker 1: of Horse and Crenicks exactly.
Speaker 2: Like you know what I'm saying. I'm like fingers crossed.
Speaker 1: Okay, Luthan is watching the Riots from afar while Vell
Speaker 1: and Sinta are packing up the safe house. They're preparing
Speaker 1: to get off the planet as quickly as they can.
Speaker 1: Cassian spirits Bicks to a ship which is going to
Speaker 1: carry her, Brasso Be to Emo, Willman, and some others
Speaker 1: to safety. Cassian says his goodbyes, give some advice to
Speaker 1: the pilot, says, listen, as soon as you get over
Speaker 1: the sea, you don't have your tracker on, you fucking
Speaker 1: hit the afterburners. You're out of here. B is like what, Cassian,
Speaker 1: I didn't get to to see you. And You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is fucking heartbreaking. And then Cassian says, I know,
Speaker 1: but I need you to hold things down here while
Speaker 1: I go take care of business and be like, but
Speaker 1: you always say that, And then Cassian is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you always come through for me, don't you know you,
Speaker 1: little bee? And it's wonderful. And I hope that B
Speaker 1: is safe forever, even though we never hear much like Deirdre,
Speaker 1: we have never heard of him before, and I hope
Speaker 1: that he has saved somewhere me too.
Speaker 2: And there's a really interesting moment where Cassian's like, I
Speaker 2: promise I will come and find you and it's unclear
Speaker 2: whether b doesn't really believe him understandably, but it's unclear
Speaker 2: whether Bix is Lucid or not, because she then says
Speaker 2: Cassian will come, Cassian will find us, but she says
Speaker 2: it to Cassian as if she doesn't recognize him. So
Speaker 2: it's a really interesting kind of heartbreaking moment, especially because
Speaker 2: of what we see him doing in the final scene
Speaker 2: of the show.
Speaker 1: I gotta say, also, some real boor Gullet parallels with
Speaker 1: what happened to Bix, And you know what Borgullet is
Speaker 1: able to do and does in fact in Rogue One.
Speaker 2: Could what the babies are, Could they potentially be related
Speaker 2: to Borgollet, like you.
Speaker 1: Wonder if that is the last, the last of its kind,
Speaker 1: you know. Then we go to Coruscant where Mon and
Speaker 1: Paren are presenting their daughter Leda to the gangster Davos Skolden,
Speaker 1: and his son is some sort of chandrillin match. This
Speaker 1: is some sort of.
Speaker 2: Pressing scenes in the show. This is a finale full
Speaker 2: of depressing, sad moments, and yet this moment.
Speaker 1: Seems you talk about sing Mon's.
Speaker 2: Face and it's so horrified with what she is doing.
Speaker 2: It is so gross.
Speaker 1: You want to talk about ruthless like we were talking
Speaker 1: about Luthen as ruthless, right, He's going here to kill
Speaker 1: someone who has been very useful and beneficial to him
Speaker 1: and his mission, and will clearly sacrifice anyone in order
Speaker 1: to keep the rebellion going, keep it safe, keep his
Speaker 1: network from being being revealed. Man Mon. As scared as
Speaker 1: she is, she's also tremendously ruthless and courageous. Just I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, setting up her husband to take some
Speaker 1: kind of fall grim, offering up her daughter, who is
Speaker 1: you know, a little missed fascist Coruscant twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: offering her up to a gangster in order to keep
Speaker 1: the rebellion you know, in money. She is an unbelievable
Speaker 1: hero of the rebel alliance and the things to do
Speaker 1: aret In.
Speaker 2: She's much more similar to Luthan than she would have
Speaker 2: in her own way, in her own scary like ex
Speaker 2: extremely ruling class way, and the way that she just
Speaker 2: sells it is so heartbreaking to see. She just knows
Speaker 2: that she's doing something terrible that she does not agree with.
Speaker 1: I would argue too, that she's even though you see
Speaker 1: her fear in a much more present way than you
Speaker 1: see Luthen's I think she's she is. I mean know,
Speaker 1: Luthen calls himself a coward at various points, but I
Speaker 1: think that her courage is so it's it's jaw dropping
Speaker 1: because she is just completely exposed. She is surround like
Speaker 1: her family would turn her in if they need.
Speaker 2: Yeah, her family loves so much privilege and money and
Speaker 2: security and status from it. They just love it.
Speaker 1: Luthen could get in his spy shuttle with you know,
Speaker 1: his faked transponder codes and his various counter you know,
Speaker 1: like countermeasures against imperial encroachment, and you know, jet off
Speaker 1: to we would assume some safe house somewhere in the
Speaker 1: galaxy mon if it all goes badly, if it all
Speaker 1: went sideways, which we know it won't from because you
Speaker 1: know we've seen again we've seen well as we've seen
Speaker 1: Roman Lucy way. But if it went sideways, can she
Speaker 1: would she be able to get off course? On It's
Speaker 1: really unclear, Like she is just completely exposed. So like, uh,
Speaker 1: kudos to man Mathma, a true hero of the rebellion. Elsewhere,
Speaker 1: Cassian has broken onto into Luthen's ship and he and
Speaker 1: Luthen arrives and Cassian confronts him, and Cassian gets Luthen
Speaker 1: to admit, yes, I came to Pherrix to kill you. You
Speaker 1: made it really hard to kill you. And Cassian's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to make it easy. There's a blaster right
Speaker 1: there on the table, right next to you. And Lutherans like,
Speaker 1: what the what is this? What is this? And Cassian's
Speaker 1: like essentially says, I want to fight the Empire. If
Speaker 1: you don't think you can trust me to fight the Empire,
Speaker 1: then kill me right here. Yeah, kill me or take
Speaker 1: me on or else take me on and let's fight together.
Speaker 1: And Luthen smiles and realizes, Okay, this guy, Cassian, I
Speaker 1: can trust and let's go fight. And then we get
Speaker 1: the Stinger scene in which we discovered that the prisoners
Speaker 1: of an Arcina five were assembling not just the death Star,
Speaker 1: but crucially the super laser for the death Star, which
Speaker 1: is you know, Galen Erso's uh project and masterpiece and
Speaker 1: Ultimate Revenge. Also that his life's work is that.
Speaker 2: Very ironic prison is building the thing that will eventually
Speaker 2: lead the rebels to be able to get freedom for
Speaker 2: the galaxy. And also we were right, we.
Speaker 1: Did we were right, We were right, We were a
Speaker 1: couple of things that have been on my mind ever
Speaker 1: since watching you know, finishing the series number one, I
Speaker 1: thought we were going back to Canari and we're going
Speaker 1: to find out what happened to and Or's sister. I
Speaker 1: guess that's probably on the on the table for season two.
Speaker 1: Did you were you expecting that?
Speaker 2: Were you thinking, Oh, Kerry, you know, I really wanted to,
Speaker 2: because as I've said, like we've spoken about this before,
Speaker 2: I do think that is one of the places that
Speaker 2: the show did not deliver the kind of nuanced, interesting
Speaker 2: context and conversation and representation that I think it did
Speaker 2: so well in things like Narcina five or even just
Speaker 2: like as the finale went on and we got to
Speaker 2: see this textured, working class planet of Pherics. But I
Speaker 2: think this is my hope, right, My hope is that
Speaker 2: season two will focus on and Or finding his sister,
Speaker 2: as in that will probably happen quite early, and I
Speaker 2: would love to see his sister challenge what Marva did
Speaker 2: and challenge his assimilation outside of Canari and kind of
Speaker 2: the way that and make him just realize that there
Speaker 2: was a set there was a part of that behavior
Speaker 2: that even if it had good intentions, was actually quite
Speaker 2: dangerous and and and and had a bad effect on him.
Speaker 2: I think that really interesting way to bring that real
Speaker 2: life analogy that we spoke of of indigenous children being
Speaker 2: kidnapped and adopted, and giving it that same context as
Speaker 2: a show that gave us a prison industrial complex slavery storyline.
Speaker 2: You know. So I was surprised that there wasn't even
Speaker 2: a tease of his sister. But maybe that, I hope
Speaker 2: is because in season two they're gonna do something that's
Speaker 2: just as complex and thoughtful as what we've seen in
Speaker 2: this season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was I'd be interested to know what happened there,
Speaker 1: and certainly I feel like I know the way that
Speaker 1: it hits me the Marvel storyline, which is that, you know,
Speaker 1: I think Marva and Clem thought they were doing something
Speaker 1: really good. Definitely there right, they thought they were doing
Speaker 1: something really positive. But also, you know, it's that thing
Speaker 1: we talk about with perspective, where everybody thinks they're no
Speaker 1: matter what they're doing, thinks that they're doing the right thing,
Speaker 1: or at least is trying to act out in a
Speaker 1: way that comports with their ideals about you know, justice
Speaker 1: and right and wrong. But it's also clearly they kidnapped
Speaker 1: a kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, like flat out like you don't.
Speaker 1: Know where his parents are, you don't know where his
Speaker 1: family sister is, you don't know what the bonds that
Speaker 1: he has with those people are. We don't know anything
Speaker 1: about the culture of those people.
Speaker 2: Like part of I think part of this is like
Speaker 2: there was a really intense and in depth, long conversation
Speaker 2: in our discord about this that lots of members took
Speaker 2: part in, and I think something that really came up.
Speaker 2: There was also something we saw in the early episodes.
Speaker 2: There's a reason that we don't know any of that stuff,
Speaker 2: and that's because from when he was a child, Marva
Speaker 2: says she told him not to think about Canari, not
Speaker 2: to tell people he was from Canari, not to even
Speaker 2: remember Canari, don't talk about your sister. That in itself
Speaker 2: reflects the way that Indigenous children in the past have
Speaker 2: been violated by being forced to pretend that they are
Speaker 2: not Indigenous to fit better into these like you know,
Speaker 2: inverted commons schools and orphanages and stuff. I think that
Speaker 2: that is a very interesting parallel that again I would
Speaker 2: like to see explored because it's to do with intention
Speaker 2: and impact. I believe Martha thought she was doing the
Speaker 2: right thing. Yeah, but Cassie and lost that deep connection
Speaker 2: and it was It feels to me that the fact
Speaker 2: that the sister was a driving force early on in
Speaker 2: the season, but we haven't heard about her again really
Speaker 2: as the season went on. I don't think that's because
Speaker 2: he's replacing his sister with his found family. I'm hoping
Speaker 2: it's because that will be a bigger arc in season two.
Speaker 1: I mean, there were clues, there were hints at it
Speaker 1: over the final two episodes where I thought, oh, we're
Speaker 1: going to we're going to go back there and we're
Speaker 1: going to find something out, but that never happened. Again.
Speaker 1: I do expect that we're going to tie up that
Speaker 1: loop certainly in season two, if not in some other
Speaker 1: story form. Okay, Sagerera, you hear a lot about, you know,
Speaker 1: in Clone Wars, elsewhere about it in Rogue One, certainly
Speaker 1: about Sagerera's extremism, how the things that he does actually
Speaker 1: hurt the rebellion because it drives a wedge between the
Speaker 1: various factions who get who are kind of like reaching
Speaker 1: across these various ideological lines in order to form the
Speaker 1: rebel Alliance. He's just so out there, and I guess
Speaker 1: the implication is violent that that people don't there are
Speaker 1: is a significant faction of the rebel Alliance that doesn't
Speaker 1: want him associated with the cause. At the same time,
Speaker 1: I'm really struggling. I wonder if we're going to find
Speaker 1: out what that is in season two, because I gotta say,
Speaker 1: I'm Saw feels very tame right now. Like I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that he is not a killer, but so is Luthan,
Speaker 1: but so is Cassian, but so is Vel, but so
Speaker 1: is Syntha, but so is everybody that we've seen thus far,
Speaker 1: and Saw it does not seem meaningfully out of step
Speaker 1: with what anybody else is doing. And the only thing
Speaker 1: that I see right now that is different, of course,
Speaker 1: is you know, again, there's a lot to be revealed.
Speaker 1: We would assume the only thing that really sets part
Speaker 1: A Saw apart right now is the fact that he
Speaker 1: was first. He was he before anybody was trying to
Speaker 1: organize to resist the Empire. He was doing it and
Speaker 1: saying that we should do it.
Speaker 2: I wonder, So there's two routs. I think they can
Speaker 2: go one. I think in a way, it's just quite
Speaker 2: one of those funny narrative conundrums, because Tony Gilory in
Speaker 2: this show at multiple points is like, just hit an
Speaker 2: imperial cop with a brick. Yeah, just break out of prison.
Speaker 2: Like he's putting for regards on the way, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: He's putting forward ideas that are radical, and a lot
Speaker 2: of what we've seen in Star Wars before has been
Speaker 2: that kind of that exavy of versus Meo style conundrum
Speaker 2: of like the rebellion of mon Mothra, the rebellion Mafra
Speaker 2: mon Mothma, the rebellion I got. I'm like, I know
Speaker 2: George loves Godzilla.
Speaker 5: It's probably not a coincidence, but you know, the rebellion
Speaker 5: of of of being peaceful and money and being in
Speaker 5: the Senate, we now know that that's actually fake.
Speaker 2: There are not two versions of the rebellion. There's the
Speaker 2: violence of the rebellion that has to happen to allow
Speaker 2: mon Mothma to do the things that she wants to do.
Speaker 2: What I would be interested in seeing will saw Guerrera
Speaker 2: get the blame for Al Darni, is that what makes
Speaker 2: mon So so scared of him and his techniques Because
Speaker 2: she's scared of Al Darni and she would love to
Speaker 2: not be connected to it, even though it's what she
Speaker 2: is funding. I wonder if there's something around that where
Speaker 2: Sore ends up actually getting blamed for the one thing
Speaker 2: he didn't do, because the truth is he is the
Speaker 2: one who told Lutheran don't go and kill Yeah Kriegez
Speaker 2: people actually don't allow them, I mean, don't allow them
Speaker 2: to die to keep the secret that's wrong. There's thirty
Speaker 2: men that he does not believe in willful debts and
Speaker 2: murdering people. He believes in doing what has to be done.
Speaker 2: And now we're seeing him that is very much in
Speaker 2: line with what Cassian feels or the show feels. So
Speaker 2: it will be interesting to see if they expand on
Speaker 2: what Saw allegedly did or if Saw ends up getting
Speaker 2: the blame for something that the rebellion don't want to take.
Speaker 1: So also feels like, you know, he reminds me of
Speaker 1: a of a dynamic that happens in the real world,
Speaker 1: which is a group of people you know, you know,
Speaker 1: from a disenfranchised community or front with you know, real
Speaker 1: roots and a lived experience that is maybe outside of
Speaker 1: the mainstream, will say, hey, this thing is actually this
Speaker 1: is like violent against our community. This is this is
Speaker 1: this is the first step in like you know, uh
Speaker 1: we see where this is actual violence being taken against Like,
Speaker 1: this is where this is going. And oftentimes in the
Speaker 1: real world, when those figures will speak up, people say, oh,
Speaker 1: that's fringe, you're being alarmist, YadA, YadA, YadA. I see
Speaker 1: that as kind of happening with Saw. Who is again
Speaker 1: who is early on was like the Empire, we gotta
Speaker 1: fight the empire. This is Look how crazy this is?
Speaker 1: Look how look how evil they're being and people being like,
Speaker 1: no being there being alarmist, You're being a little crazy
Speaker 1: about this. And I think it's very interesting that Saw
Speaker 1: is branded an extremist by the quote unquote mainstream of
Speaker 1: what will be the Rebel Alliance at a certain point
Speaker 1: when within a few months of the raid on Scariff,
Speaker 1: that mainstream of the rebel Alliance will absolutely green light
Speaker 1: an operation that kills like what two million people on
Speaker 1: the Death Star. You know, Like, it's just interesting how
Speaker 1: somehow Saw is an extremist but blowing up the Death Star, which,
Speaker 1: let me just go on record, that was the right
Speaker 1: thing to do, the.
Speaker 2: Right but there is ethical but conversation.
Speaker 1: But well, like, however many people Saw killed, can it
Speaker 1: possibly match up to how many people died in the
Speaker 1: in the Battle of Yavon. So it's just very interesting
Speaker 1: that at a certain point the mainstream of the rebel
Speaker 1: alliance has come to a place where they're doing things
Speaker 1: that are that if they would have been told half
Speaker 1: a year previously what would occur at the Battle of
Speaker 1: Yavin and elsewhere, they'd be like, that's crazy. We're not
Speaker 1: going to do that. We're not going to kill three
Speaker 1: million people like in a strike, We're not going to
Speaker 1: like that. They will find themselves in a place where
Speaker 1: that will just make sense. And I and I hope
Speaker 1: that we get to see whatever it is that Saw
Speaker 1: does to either get that kind of like label as
Speaker 1: an extremist, or we get to see, you know, a
Speaker 1: moment where he gets to say, well, I was I
Speaker 1: was right?
Speaker 3: Was I not right?
Speaker 2: I wonder if, like in the realistic political allegories that
Speaker 2: this show's building in, I wonder if the label of
Speaker 2: extremist is just something they say about him because they
Speaker 2: don't want people to respect him or realize he did
Speaker 2: it first, you know, they they oh, you're an extremist
Speaker 2: was an extremist. We can't listen to him, but this
Speaker 2: was the man who laid the groundwork for what you
Speaker 2: were doing. You just don't want to give him credit.
Speaker 1: I will say. You know, like like a lot of
Speaker 1: us on this Zoom, I watched Rogue one as soon
Speaker 1: as I was done with and Or, and I think
Speaker 1: that a lot of Saw's paranoia in that movie suddenly
Speaker 1: just make it just makes a lot more sense. The
Speaker 1: fact that you know the Kreeger reveal Luthen's Kreeger revealed
Speaker 1: to him, and how his shock at realizing how willing
Speaker 1: Luthen would be to like burn an entired network to
Speaker 1: keep everything safe. It's easy to see how that experience,
Speaker 1: not to mention whatever physical trauma he had undergone in
Speaker 1: the intervening years, would result in the paranoia that we
Speaker 1: see on Jetto where he's like, this is a setup,
Speaker 1: isn't it the pilot You're trying to bait me into
Speaker 1: going somewhere, and it's you can almost watching it. I
Speaker 1: can almost see the wheels turning like this is like
Speaker 1: Anton Kreeger. They're trying to set me up like Kreeger.
Speaker 1: It suddenly all of a sudden really made sense.
Speaker 2: That I will say I think is one of the
Speaker 2: absolute master strokes Tony Gilroy did with this show. He went,
Speaker 2: he made Raguan and then he basically retroactively created a
Speaker 2: prequel with and Or. Look, this sounds like what everyone
Speaker 2: should do with the prequel, but it's not. It is
Speaker 2: like a puzzle box where he takes tiny moments that
Speaker 2: almost seem row away from and Or and expands on
Speaker 2: them in a huge, huge sense. I mean having you know,
Speaker 2: the droids that arrest and Or on the space Miami,
Speaker 2: little things like that. You know Adam will talk about
Speaker 2: it later, but like he has a prison inside him
Speaker 2: and he carries it with him everywhere he goes. We
Speaker 2: now know what that means for Cassian saw Why would
Speaker 2: he think it was a setup that's so specific, because
Speaker 2: that is what Lutheran did with Krieger. Like, it's so
Speaker 2: satisfying to feel the pieces click together. And if you
Speaker 2: haven't gone back and watched Rogan after finishing and Or,
Speaker 2: do it, because I guarantee you are going to feel
Speaker 2: incredibly satisfied and very smartly. There is still a lot
Speaker 2: of space left for Cassian to move in season two
Speaker 2: to get to the person he is in Rogue one.
Speaker 2: He is not that person now because of what happened
Speaker 2: in season one, But we understand the person he is
Speaker 2: in Rogue one a little bit better because of this season.
Speaker 1: Absolutely one last Saw thing, which is, you know, clearly,
Speaker 1: when we see Saw in rogue one, he is he's
Speaker 1: sucking on some sort of like oxygen tank that he
Speaker 1: needs because his lungs have been damaged. He's missing limbs.
Speaker 1: He also doesn't seem to recognize Cassian, where certainly now
Speaker 1: it could be in his state, his absolutely paranoid state
Speaker 1: that he just doesn't remember that he knows this guy
Speaker 1: or had met this guy, or been in the same
Speaker 1: room as this guy. You know Luthan. I remember Luthen
Speaker 1: saying that thing about Kreeger. He doesn't know me. Yes,
Speaker 1: we've been in the same room, but he didn't know
Speaker 1: who I was. It could have been a situation like
Speaker 1: that yere where Saw has been around Cassian but didn't
Speaker 1: know who, didn't recall exactly who he was. But I
Speaker 1: wonder how they're going to play that in season two. One,
Speaker 1: I would expect we're going to get more And two,
Speaker 1: why is it that obviously Saw as a famous figure
Speaker 1: and certainly in rebellion circles. But why is it that
Speaker 1: Saw didn't seem to know who Cassian was?
Speaker 2: Okay, so I think this could tie into the journey
Speaker 2: of Cassian over the next season. I wonder it's very sad,
Speaker 2: it's very bleak, but I think it's probably quite likely.
Speaker 2: I wonder if the way that Luthan sees Cassian as
Speaker 2: being useful after that interaction. I wonder if Luthan is
Speaker 2: the one who trains Cassian to become that cold blooded
Speaker 2: killer oh takes. And I wonder if the reason that
Speaker 2: Soar and Cassian don't necessarily cross paths in any kind
Speaker 2: of definitive way is because Cassian's life is as a killer,
Speaker 2: as an assassin, as the person who will take out
Speaker 2: those who needs to be taken out, which means that
Speaker 2: he is essentially a specter. You know, he's not really
Speaker 2: a presence in the rebellion because his role is to
Speaker 2: take out the people who and I would assume that
Speaker 2: would be very easy to get Cassian to do. If
Speaker 2: you say, well, here are the people who destroyed Canari,
Speaker 2: here are the people who did this thing that personally
Speaker 2: hurt you. Here's an empire person who did something terrible.
Speaker 2: Here's something and then then that's how you get to
Speaker 2: the person in that first scene of roguean who can
Speaker 2: just shoot the informer.
Speaker 1: I let's talk about Luthen for a second, because he
Speaker 1: gives that little smile when when you know, when Cassian
Speaker 1: gives him the choice either shoot me down or take
Speaker 1: me on. And but I I, you know, other pods
Speaker 1: that I listened to have kind of you know, maybe
Speaker 1: have have kind of placed Luthen in that same kind
Speaker 1: of you know, framework of somebody who comes to the
Speaker 1: light of like, oh, I've seen the error of my ways.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have tried to kill Cassian. Maybe I'll do
Speaker 1: the rebellion differently. I didn't get that sension at all,
Speaker 1: the sense, especially considering what you mentioned that at the
Speaker 1: beginning of Roguan, Cassian is every bit what Luthen is
Speaker 1: now and will without any unction.
Speaker 2: He'll do it to the people to do it for him.
Speaker 1: He will, He has no compunction to just like cutting off,
Speaker 1: you know, the head of you know, a loose thread,
Speaker 1: if that protects the network. I think I don't sense
Speaker 1: any kind of hesitation or or sorrow in Luthen. In fact,
Speaker 1: I think at the end of this Luthan is going
Speaker 1: to continue to be as ruthless as he has been.
Speaker 1: Like that is my sense from from this. Did you
Speaker 1: feel anything going to change his ways?
Speaker 2: I totally agree. I think you're on exactly the right part.
Speaker 2: I didn't see it that way at all. I saw
Speaker 2: his smile as he is incredibly satisfied because here is
Speaker 2: a person, this guy just like him, Yeah, will die.
Speaker 2: He's going to die or he's going to be in
Speaker 2: the rebellion. And actually what that really means is he's
Speaker 2: going to die being in the rebellion like Luthan. And
Speaker 2: obviously we see that Luthan's speech that becomes true for
Speaker 2: Cassian dying for the sunset you'll never get to see
Speaker 2: or the sunrise you'll never get to see. That is
Speaker 2: foreshadowing of Cassian and Jin dying on Scariff. And I
Speaker 2: think that what he's smiling about is to Luthan because
Speaker 2: of how ruthless he's become. All of this whole season
Speaker 2: was almost like a test. He didn't know he was
Speaker 2: testing Cassian, he was going to kill him. But then
Speaker 2: he comes is, Oh, here's somebody who will who is
Speaker 2: so desperate to be a part of this who so
Speaker 2: believes this is the right thing to do that he
Speaker 2: will give me a blaster and tell me to kill
Speaker 2: him or make him a part of it. I think
Speaker 2: Lutheran is just very happy to have someone else who's
Speaker 2: kind of as unhinged and committed to this as he is.
Speaker 2: And I think that Lutheran is a user as much
Speaker 2: as he's doing things for a greater good. And I
Speaker 2: think we will see that ruthlessness and exploitation translated to Cassian.
Speaker 2: I do believe my gut says Luthen probably will like
Speaker 2: in season two. This is not too Galaxy brain, but
Speaker 2: a little bit further along kind of theory. I think
Speaker 2: he will probably die saving Cassian. I think that will
Speaker 2: be his one moment of redemption. He sees that Cassian
Speaker 2: can continue this on and he sort of does something
Speaker 2: to stop Cassian dying. I think that is the only
Speaker 2: redemptive moment he may have. But I think that it
Speaker 2: is no coincidence that Cassian's ruthlessness at the beginning of
Speaker 2: Roguan is a direct reflection of Luthen's and I think
Speaker 2: that relationship over the next season is only going to
Speaker 2: get more terrible.
Speaker 1: I have a galaxy brain, I have a galaxy. I
Speaker 1: think Luthen saves Cassian somehow at that and to your point,
Speaker 1: that is the kind of Luthen redemption moment. But Cassian
Speaker 1: is forced to kill Luthan, either to let him walk
Speaker 1: into an imperial trap, let him go down, or.
Speaker 2: I think that sounds very realistic, has.
Speaker 1: To kill him in order to keep him from falling
Speaker 1: into the Empire's hands. And I think it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a very tough decision, but I think that is how
Speaker 1: we get to the Cassian end. Or we see in
Speaker 1: rope who I think a guy in the he'll shoot
Speaker 1: a guy in the back, He'll kill Galen or So,
Speaker 1: even though the orders are we snatch Galen or So
Speaker 1: when somebody put you know it, takes him aside and goes, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: we're not actually going to rescue Galen or So. You
Speaker 1: fucking kill that guy this second you lay eyes on him.
Speaker 1: Who will happily kill Galen or So in the presence
Speaker 1: of his daughter, even though he's.
Speaker 2: Not connected with his human level, as.
Speaker 1: Long as that allows the rebellion to survive. I think
Speaker 1: that's my galaxy green tea.
Speaker 2: I think that's a really great call. I think Saul
Speaker 2: pointed this out. I totally agree. Lutheran would want it
Speaker 2: that way. He'd want it.
Speaker 1: That way, he would he would agree with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would want it. He's probably given him the
Speaker 2: old kill me wink, you know, yeah, old like you
Speaker 2: can do it. But also, okay, so this is let's
Speaker 2: galaxy bring it up a little bit further. I wonder
Speaker 2: if there's some kind I wonder if the Sister arc
Speaker 2: and the Lutheran arc crossover in the way that the
Speaker 2: Empire or somebody gets hands on Cassian's sister and he
Speaker 2: has to betray and inverted Commas Luthan, but there's some
Speaker 2: kind of agreement that's made. I wonder if those two
Speaker 2: sides of his life will be pitted against each other.
Speaker 2: I really hope the Sister arc does come into it
Speaker 2: next season and we're not just like she's just fridged,
Speaker 2: like oh sorry, she's there, like sorry to you. There's
Speaker 2: been too.
Speaker 1: Many there's been too many mentions of her for that
Speaker 1: to happen. Vell and sinto what do you think we
Speaker 1: see from the Aldanni crew going forward? And are they
Speaker 1: going to be active participants in this nascent version of
Speaker 1: the Rebel alliance.
Speaker 2: Sinta, Yes, I think she's going to become a big character.
Speaker 2: I have a big feeling that she's gonna be on
Speaker 2: alongside Cassian on that journey, maybe someone who he sees
Speaker 2: doing the things that he believes he has to do.
Speaker 2: I think Vell could be a very interesting character. To
Speaker 2: see mom oh my God through through Vell's eyes, and
Speaker 2: to see that the two sides of the rebellion, Lutheran's
Speaker 2: rebellion and mom Mofma's rebellion. I think Sinta and Vell
Speaker 2: could become kind of reflections of those two versions, because
Speaker 2: Vell's definitely getting tired of the brutal real of the rebellion.
Speaker 2: So I hope that we see both of them going
Speaker 2: forwards in season two.
Speaker 1: An amazing show, an incredible achievement. I understand why they're
Speaker 1: only doing one more season. Certainly when we talked to
Speaker 1: talk to Tony and he was like, well, a certain point,
Speaker 1: I was just like, what the fuck am I doing?
Speaker 2: This is why I do this, disting my life.
Speaker 1: So I'm very you know, like, I'm very grateful that
Speaker 1: he decided to do that again, to go through that
Speaker 1: process again. And I can't wait to see man. I
Speaker 1: can't wait to see how this leads us into Rogue one,
Speaker 1: the Battle of Yavin, and and on and on. Where
Speaker 1: do you put and or in your Star Wars pantheon?
Speaker 2: Who I am? I mean surprising no one. My favorite
Speaker 2: Star Wars is my favorite main canon Star Wars is
Speaker 2: returning the Jedi, because really, my favorite Star Wars is
Speaker 2: like Batfandle like he Walks. I love those e Woks movies,
Speaker 2: and I love I love that stuff. That's my closest
Speaker 2: to my heart. So I'm a Jedi first person. It's
Speaker 2: really hard because it's the comparison of subjective nostalgia and
Speaker 2: love for these things and objective goodness. I would say,
Speaker 2: in objective goodness, this is as good as the best
Speaker 2: Star Wars, so it would be after that, I would say,
Speaker 2: in mind, it's probably around currently it would be like
Speaker 2: Jedi Rebels, Clone Wars and or.
Speaker 1: New Hope.
Speaker 2: But then again, you know, I love the Last Jedi,
Speaker 2: so sometimes that's my number one. So it's hard for me,
Speaker 2: but it's up there. I'll say it's up there. I
Speaker 2: can't say definitively a number based because there's too many
Speaker 2: Star Wars movies. I'll never forget seeing the Force awakens
Speaker 2: in a cinema at midnight with like a bunch of
Speaker 2: other people. That was like one of the best cinematic
Speaker 2: experiences of my life. I think The Last Jedi is
Speaker 2: a masterpiece, but this is up there. I think this
Speaker 2: is a subjectively include some of the best Star Wars
Speaker 2: storytelling of all time. The Knocking of Five stuff for
Speaker 2: me is that's some of my best form or storytelling. Ever.
Speaker 1: One thing I forgot to talk about, and we talk
Speaker 1: about a little bit with Adam, is there are other prisons,
Speaker 1: like for other other alien races. Right, Like they kept
Speaker 1: all the they were like, what's your homeworld? They kept
Speaker 1: all the humans with the humans. I would assume if
Speaker 1: they have wookies, they keep all the wookies with the
Speaker 1: wookies like we would. We should assume that, right that
Speaker 1: they're different the Empire across.
Speaker 2: Alien and humans. They know that's very dangerous. So I
Speaker 2: think as well season two prediction something that we I
Speaker 2: know we both want to see in season two more
Speaker 2: alien representation, different kinds of aliens, understanding why human supremacy
Speaker 2: is such a big part of the Empire, but also understanding,
Speaker 2: as we kind of talk about with Adam, that that
Speaker 2: is also probably a budget can strain, and we are
Speaker 2: very happy with what came out of that budget constraint
Speaker 2: because this show looks amazing and they committed to telling
Speaker 2: like a really incredible story.
Speaker 1: Okay, I have and Or. I think it would be
Speaker 1: tied for two. I have Rogue one and and Or
Speaker 1: to me, like, yes, you need both, right, So it's
Speaker 1: either so I have again sometimes, as I've said here,
Speaker 1: yeah is favorite, sometimes my favorite. But I'm gonna put
Speaker 1: Empire first. Okay, so Empire, Rogue one, Slash and or
Speaker 1: one A one B Rebels, a New Hope, and then
Speaker 1: probably Jedi.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love Return of the Jedi.
Speaker 4: I love It's hard because, like now there's so much
Speaker 4: Star Wars that it stops being an easy question because,
Speaker 4: like I would also say that the Last Jedi, even
Speaker 4: though it has like some really big flaws, I love
Speaker 4: a lot of the stuff that they did there.
Speaker 2: Like I wish that Finn had been more obviously a Jedi.
Speaker 2: I always believed him and Poe were both for sensitive,
Speaker 2: and we kind of get that in the third movie
Speaker 2: little bit. But I love this stuff with him and Rose.
Speaker 2: I think that that throne room fight is one of
Speaker 2: the coolest things that's ever been put to screen.
Speaker 1: It's the best lightsaber fight ever period.
Speaker 2: The idea of the democracy of the force and everybody
Speaker 2: can use it and it's not just some weird bloodline elitism.
Speaker 2: So that one for a long time after seeing it,
Speaker 2: that was my favorite. But there's so much that it's
Speaker 2: just hard. But this is up there definitely, and I
Speaker 2: think I feel very lucky to live in a time
Speaker 2: where you can be like, oh, there's great Star Wars
Speaker 2: TV shows, and they're not just great for a Star
Speaker 2: Wars TV show, like Rebels and and or those are
Speaker 2: just great TV shows. Whether or not, I would say
Speaker 2: anyone who doesn't think they're into Star Wars should watch
Speaker 2: this show. I think it could just find such a
Speaker 2: huge audience, and I hope that people give it a try,
Speaker 2: even though I'm sure everyone who listens his podcasts probably
Speaker 2: loves Star Wars.
Speaker 1: Well. We've got more and or up next. In our
Speaker 1: conversation with Atlantic writer Adam Serwer, Crooked and do a
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Speaker 1: the High Mind, where we explore a topic in more
Speaker 1: detail with the help of expert guests, and this week
Speaker 1: we are thrilled to have Atlantic staff writer Adam Surwar
Speaker 1: join us to go even deeper into the politics of
Speaker 1: and Or and talk about his Star Wars origin story
Speaker 1: and more. Adam Serwer is a staff writer at The Atlantic,
Speaker 1: and he recently wrote a piece titled Star Wars Gets
Speaker 1: Political but not in the way you think. Adam covers
Speaker 1: a variety of topics, mostly on the political scene, justice, society, race, etc.
Speaker 1: And we're delighted to have him here on x ray
Speaker 1: Vision to talk about and Or. Adam, Thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: So I think we're both really interested to get your take,
Speaker 1: and also you know, we're fascinated by your piece as
Speaker 1: someone who is not really like into the granular conversations
Speaker 1: around Star Wars on a kind of a week to
Speaker 1: week project project level, to see like your what your
Speaker 1: reaction to and or was you know, just.
Speaker 6: Okay, So how do you feel I need to clarify this?
Speaker 6: So I'm not involved in those conversations, but I am
Speaker 6: involved in the sense that I'm a hopeless Star Wars
Speaker 6: that I love.
Speaker 1: To hear it.
Speaker 6: I think there was like a couple of years after
Speaker 6: the prequels where I kind of detached and just like
Speaker 6: wasn't interested, and then the Clone Wars cartoon brought me
Speaker 6: back in nice and you know, even even Rise of Skywalker,
Speaker 6: which is the worst thing that has ever happened to
Speaker 6: the franchise. It's worse than Find in Menace. It's worse,
Speaker 6: and I mean it is just the complete silence of
Speaker 6: anything to deal with that era of Star Wars. This
Speaker 6: sort of speaks for yourself. Even that did not stop
Speaker 6: me this time, because there's there's so much other stuff
Speaker 6: that's good that they're doing and I think, you know,
Speaker 6: so I'm not. I don't write about it very much.
Speaker 6: I don't, you know, I'm not, you know, I don't.
Speaker 6: I don't get like super involved in like the production
Speaker 6: details and stuff like. It's not it's not professionally it's
Speaker 6: so except for every once in a while, It's not
Speaker 6: that I'm professionally absorbed them, but I do love this stuff.
Speaker 6: I will watch this about any Star Wars content you
Speaker 6: give me. I don't know why, I just I just
Speaker 6: really enjoyed. I think part of it is just that
Speaker 6: it is just it's flexibility, I mean, and I think
Speaker 6: that's one of the things about and Or is that
Speaker 6: the universe can contain so many different interpretations, you know.
Speaker 6: I think one of the things that people liked about
Speaker 6: an earlier stage of the MCU, which is that it
Speaker 6: was very clear that in the Marvel Universe, you could
Speaker 6: do something that was a completely different genre from something
Speaker 6: else and it would still like fit. And I think
Speaker 6: Star Wars is really like that, right, I mean, like,
Speaker 6: even if you look at Solo, which is one of
Speaker 6: the less celebrated installments, it's a heist movie, yeah, and
Speaker 6: it feels like a heist movie. And and that kind
Speaker 6: of genre flexibility, I think is you know, a meanable
Speaker 6: to many different kinds of artists interpretations of which and
Speaker 6: Or is probably the best example of something. So we've
Speaker 6: seen a Star Wars creaer do something completely different from
Speaker 6: everything that's come before while still feeling, at least to me,
Speaker 6: very much like Star Wars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so before we begin to andle then, as
Speaker 2: a fan, I'd love to know, like, what's your origin
Speaker 2: with Star Wars? Where was the place that you first
Speaker 2: fell in love with it? And what's kind of kept
Speaker 2: you hooked throughout?
Speaker 6: I mean I was just I was just a little
Speaker 6: kid who you know, saw the movie when I was
Speaker 6: like five years old or something like that, and like,
Speaker 6: you know, I love the whole series. And then you know,
Speaker 6: at some point you're like eight or something like that,
Speaker 6: and somebody's dad who has like you know, who's like
Speaker 6: a cool dad or something and likes to talk to
Speaker 6: about you know, X wing fighters and stuff with his kids,
Speaker 6: his kid's friends, he says something like, oh, did you
Speaker 6: ever notice that Star Wars one is episode four? And
Speaker 6: this observation just blows your mind and you're just like, wait, wait,
Speaker 6: a whole other story that we don't even know about,
Speaker 6: and and and and and nobody's seen it yet and
Speaker 6: what happened and like you know, and and and this
Speaker 6: just sort of this is the moment where you're like, oh,
Speaker 6: this universe is so huge that your imagination just runs
Speaker 6: away with it, right, And like maybe you start reading
Speaker 6: novels or comic books or something like that, and it's
Speaker 6: just it's just, you know, I think that was definitely
Speaker 6: the moment for me where I where I sort of
Speaker 6: you know, didn't just like it, but sort of fell
Speaker 6: into the pit.
Speaker 1: So what do you think it is about?
Speaker 2: And or?
Speaker 5: And or?
Speaker 1: I think, as you noted in your piece and as
Speaker 1: many people are talking about, is really kind of the
Speaker 1: first project along with Rogan, to put some real meat
Speaker 1: on the kind of skeleton skeletal idea of rebellion that's
Speaker 1: kind of alluded to and talked about but not really
Speaker 1: uh explored in any kind of like de tailed way.
Speaker 1: What is it that uh makes this story feel like
Speaker 1: Star Wars while also being seemingly like the most radical
Speaker 1: take on what a rebellion in this world would mean.
Speaker 6: So I think, you know, obviously Star Wars no stranger
Speaker 6: to political allegory, and when I wrote that piece, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, my intention is not to say that this
Speaker 6: is the first time Star Wars has engaged in political allegory,
Speaker 6: because that's obviously not Tree Lucas is you know, sort
Speaker 6: of famously. But you know, I did this story where
Speaker 6: you can the rebels are both America and the vietcom
Speaker 6: and the Empire is both America and the Soviet Union,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. And the Nazi like, the
Speaker 6: rebellion is every uh, you know, righteous insurgency that has
Speaker 6: ever existed, and the Empire is every evil regime that
Speaker 6: has ever existed. And that that that's sort of you know,
Speaker 6: that's always been there. But what's interesting about and Or
Speaker 6: and also about Rogue one, although I think it a
Speaker 6: very different way, is that they have an internal politics
Speaker 6: that makes sense. I mean, I think this is something
Speaker 6: that you know, the difference between Rogue one and and Or, Uh,
Speaker 6: to me is that Rogue one, the rebellion is very
Speaker 6: much religious. And and when you look at you know,
Speaker 6: they talk a lot about the force. You know, obviously
Speaker 6: you have cheer praying. You know, the the rebels on
Speaker 6: the beach are saying for Jetta, uh. You know, when
Speaker 6: when they're attacking Scaiff, there's this talk about I mean,
Speaker 6: the huge backlash is that they destroyed a holy city
Speaker 6: and the empire is still violently secular in and Or,
Speaker 6: but the rebellion is not yet at least from what
Speaker 6: we see, is not like a religious institution. But that
Speaker 6: said there's something similar there, and that we have a
Speaker 6: sense that there are ideological divisions in Rogue One. It's simple.
Speaker 6: You know, they say Saw as an extremists, but but
Speaker 6: and Or really gives us. You know, you have Mom Mathma,
Speaker 6: who's sort of more establishment figure who's secretly, you know,
Speaker 6: funding an insurgency, but it's also sort of horrified by
Speaker 6: the the actual violence that an insurgency requires. You have Saw,
Speaker 6: who you know, gives us the sort of layer of
Speaker 6: the land as far as like I'm not going to
Speaker 6: work with somebody who tried to overthrow the Republic with
Speaker 6: the droid army, Like I'm just not going to do that.
Speaker 6: And you know, you have Luthan, who I think whose
Speaker 6: ideological origins have been painted at in a way that
Speaker 6: I think the show very clearly wants you to think
Speaker 6: one thing, although he may not end up being that thing.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think the show is very clear that
Speaker 6: it wants you to think that Luthen is some kind
Speaker 6: of fallen Jedi. I mean, he shows up. I mean
Speaker 6: hopefully you know this is not spoilers, fear listeners, but yeah,
Speaker 6: he shows up like Sis brothers. He's like he's he's
Speaker 6: dressed like, you know, he's dressed like the fake me out,
Speaker 6: sit outfit Skywalker is wearing in Return of the Jedi.
Speaker 6: So he's like, he's he's you know, the show wants
Speaker 6: us to think this. He has that sort of Chekhov's
Speaker 6: walking stick that looks like alf you know what I mean.
Speaker 6: I mean, I mean, the show wants us to think
Speaker 6: that he's a jet I don't know that he is.
Speaker 6: I don't know if that'll turn out to be the thing.
Speaker 6: I don't know what his particular ideological origin is. But
Speaker 6: the important thing is that there is there are ideological divisions.
Speaker 6: There's this, you know, manifesto that one of the characters
Speaker 6: rights and or that and Or himself is uninterested in
Speaker 6: because he's uninterested in politics in the same way that
Speaker 6: in Rogue one, she's like, you know, I don't have
Speaker 6: the luxury of political opinions, and she's kind of lying,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. She she she based on
Speaker 6: her origin, she does have political opinions, but she has
Speaker 6: decided to reject them in favor of, you know, just
Speaker 6: scraping out of a day to day existence, which is
Speaker 6: what a lot of the people in and Or are doing.
Speaker 6: And we don't see. And a big part of what
Speaker 6: people like about the show and what people like about
Speaker 6: this portrayal of the universes that we see those people,
Speaker 6: these people who are aching out in an existence under
Speaker 6: an oppressive regime, not just the people who are sort
Speaker 6: of the heroes who are going to say to the galaxy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something from your piece that really spoke to me.
Speaker 2: As where you say the series attempts to imagine and
Speaker 2: internal politics of class, culture and ideology that motivates its
Speaker 2: principal characters and fictional institutions. I would say that it's
Speaker 2: quite easy to say that and Or is probably the
Speaker 2: first Star Wars that has really even delved into the
Speaker 2: ideas of class. You know, The Last Jedi definitely wanted
Speaker 2: to touch on this idea of a democracy of the
Speaker 2: force and how all different people from all different spaces.
Speaker 2: But and Or, like you said, it really delves into
Speaker 2: kind of the politics of class and how it impacts
Speaker 2: the galaxy. Could you speak a little to that and
Speaker 2: how effective you think it is in this series.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, you know Pheris, you know,
Speaker 6: Perix's working class planet. The people there are doing salvage
Speaker 6: and so they're working with their hands. You know, the
Speaker 6: empire is you know, you get a sense that the
Speaker 6: heights in the film, in the show provides the pretext
Speaker 6: for the empire to engage in uh, you know, essentially
Speaker 6: prison slave labor to spee up. You know that that's
Speaker 6: not necessarily a question of uh, the utility of the repression,
Speaker 6: but the need to uh recruit a labor force, you know,
Speaker 6: the the you have you know things like you know,
Speaker 6: Carn is not simply an ideologue. He is sort of
Speaker 6: from a lower middle class family on Corroussant, like we
Speaker 6: never we can't see the sky from where Karn's apartment,
Speaker 6: mother's apartment is, right. It's a small apartment. It's a
Speaker 6: kitchen at the dining room. You can see the stove
Speaker 6: from the dining room. You know what I mean. It's
Speaker 6: it's a small apartment. The neighbors are observing, you know,
Speaker 6: they can hear uh. You know it's it's uh, you know,
Speaker 6: lower east side, New York City or something like that,
Speaker 6: you know, uh, eighty years ago. And and that that
Speaker 6: that kind of detail. And I think this is again
Speaker 6: this on that the and Or does really well, is
Speaker 6: that it they've done their research about historical periods and
Speaker 6: events in a way that allows them to remix them
Speaker 6: in a way that they're recognizable, but also like they're
Speaker 6: not tracing them, you know what I mean, Like it's
Speaker 6: it still feels like Star Wars. It doesn't feel like
Speaker 6: you know, it doesn't really feel like New York City. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, the the the prison break, which you know,
Speaker 6: like the events of the prison break really sound a
Speaker 6: lot like the concentration camp uprising at Sobeople were in
Speaker 6: World War Two. But it but at the same time,
Speaker 6: it's not so close to it that you're like, oh,
Speaker 6: they just copied this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they translate it into the world
Speaker 2: of Star Wars in a way that feels organic.
Speaker 6: Right exactly. And you know, things like you know, Masma's daughter,
Speaker 6: you know, embracing you know, her plans religious traditions in
Speaker 6: a way that feels like an act of defiance, you know,
Speaker 6: not just towards her parents, but towards the empire, you know,
Speaker 6: which is again it is it is similarly violently secular
Speaker 6: right they do not have. They tolerate religion, but they
Speaker 6: see it as a privilege that they can take away,
Speaker 6: not as a right of the people under their control.
Speaker 6: And so I think, you know, these are all things
Speaker 6: that are drawn from the I mean, and even when
Speaker 6: you look at Rogue One, it's sort of a similar
Speaker 6: like that film is a creature of this period, but
Speaker 6: I think it is a not It is a very
Speaker 6: clear sort of analogy to the War in Afghanistan in
Speaker 6: terms of this portrayal. It's like a space Afghanistan, but
Speaker 6: or the Western perception of the War in Afghanistan rather.
Speaker 6: But the point is that it's taking these real world
Speaker 6: events and remixing them in a way that makes sense
Speaker 6: within the universe, and that gives the universe a sort
Speaker 6: of realistic feel that you know, Star Wars is typically
Speaker 6: not known Star Wars is a space offera, but it's
Speaker 6: really a fantasy, right. It's almost like it's more it's
Speaker 6: closer to Lord of the Rings than Star Trek in
Speaker 6: some ways. And so I think, you know, the sci
Speaker 6: fi aspects of and Or are there, like they're obviously present,
Speaker 6: you know, you but they are not the wheels around
Speaker 6: which the plot itself turns.
Speaker 1: Necessarily because the show is so interested in like what
Speaker 1: motivates people to rebel, what motivates a political movement. I
Speaker 1: wonder if you could if you have any thoughts about
Speaker 1: how we interact, you know, as human beings with our
Speaker 1: political ideals. Is that a scaffolding that we then build
Speaker 1: our outlook on, or do people decide as I think,
Speaker 1: you know, scheme the kind of Rapscallion a Donnie gang
Speaker 1: member who then tries to get Cassie and to like
Speaker 1: turn on the on the group and steal the money
Speaker 1: he had. He had kind of won him to a
Speaker 1: side by saying, oh, you know, they killed my brother
Speaker 1: and here's why I turned against the empire, you know,
Speaker 1: as is kind of alluded to by his character. People
Speaker 1: make a decision that they're going to do something and
Speaker 1: then backfill this entire political ideology to fit that, like
Speaker 1: which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do you
Speaker 1: think in the way we interact with our political ideals?
Speaker 6: Well, I think one thing one of the things that
Speaker 6: I like about the show is that it is not
Speaker 6: the characters make choices. Yeah, you know, Mam Mathma is
Speaker 6: from a particular social class and she makes the choice
Speaker 6: to rebell. Not everybody in her social circle is making
Speaker 6: that choice. In fact, most people are not making that choice.
Speaker 6: She she she views the rebellion through her own ideological lens.
Speaker 6: You know, she's horrified by al Donnie, even though like
Speaker 6: al Donnie is what she is. Funded. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: so her her class background, her privilege, she interprets the
Speaker 6: rebellion through that, and obviously you know, we know what
Speaker 6: happens with my mathma later if you're if you're a
Speaker 6: Star Wars fan, but you know the same thing, you
Speaker 6: know they're you know, Skiing is an example of someone
Speaker 6: who is he believes because he and and Or are
Speaker 6: sort of from the same galactic underclass, that they're going
Speaker 6: to make the same decisions and that moment narratively, you know,
Speaker 6: and Or is not necessarily committing to the rebellion at
Speaker 6: that moment. In fact, he's not. His plan is to
Speaker 6: take that loot and go to Space Miami and he
Speaker 6: doesn't get a get a girl, and like you know,
Speaker 6: enjoy the rest of his life. But he's not. He's
Speaker 6: also not going to betray the rebellion, of course, and
Speaker 6: so you see, and similarly on pharyx Uh. You know,
Speaker 6: there are people who make the choice to rebel, and
Speaker 6: there are people who make the choices side with the empire,
Speaker 6: and you know, I think that's you know, the point
Speaker 6: of the show is that they're and I think something
Speaker 6: to show as well is that you know, these these
Speaker 6: class backgrounds, these cultural backgrounds, they matter. They shape our politics,
Speaker 6: but we do make decisions for ourselves about how we
Speaker 6: interpret those experiences and how we choose to, you know,
Speaker 6: how we choose to try and shape the world as
Speaker 6: a result of them. And it's not just a question
Speaker 6: of robotic you know, insert this background you can get
Speaker 6: this politics.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for you as a Star Wars fan, you know,
Speaker 2: we're talking about this on a really kind of deep
Speaker 2: political level, and like you said, Rogue One definitely was.
Speaker 2: There was a reason that a lot of Star Wars
Speaker 2: fans loved it, which was, oh, well, this is this
Speaker 2: is the people who have to die before you know,
Speaker 2: Luke and Layer can get a medal. Like, let's talk
Speaker 2: about that and what kind of expands on that exponentially.
Speaker 2: But you know, even as a Star Wars fan, like
Speaker 2: you said, inherently a political franchise, even though usually quite vague,
Speaker 2: I found myself like incredibly surprised. And me and Jason
Speaker 2: have talked about this a lot. To see a a
Speaker 2: prison slavery plot line and to get people on the
Speaker 2: side of people who are in prison, who are being
Speaker 2: exploited for their labor, and then to cheer them on
Speaker 2: for a prison breakout, you know, for a riot and
Speaker 2: to get people on their side. Were you surprised as
Speaker 2: you were watching the show to see the kind of
Speaker 2: political analogs it was taking and the stories they decided
Speaker 2: to tell.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, look, you know that the protagonist is
Speaker 6: a character who's father is a black man who's killed
Speaker 6: by the cops. Like, you know, there's just you know,
Speaker 6: I think that, you know, because of my politics, I think,
Speaker 6: you know, obviously I tend to see some of the
Speaker 6: more left wing and analogies in the story. I think
Speaker 6: there are right wing ones. I mean, I think the
Speaker 6: Empire's violence secularism is obviously you know, in keeping with
Speaker 6: you know, left wing, repressive, left wing regimes around the world.
Speaker 6: Or I don't think that's a mistake, or you know,
Speaker 6: the they are drawn from a lot of Like I said,
Speaker 6: they're drawing from a lot of sources. I don't think
Speaker 6: I was surprised because Rogue One was so clearly playing
Speaker 6: in those waters. I did not expect them to weave
Speaker 6: them so skillfully into the story of the show. In
Speaker 6: such a way that the show does not feel didactic
Speaker 6: to me. You know, when you read out the sort
Speaker 6: of list of plot developments and character motivations and things
Speaker 6: like that, it does feel very political. But in the
Speaker 6: show it feels very organic. It does not feel like
Speaker 6: you are being battered over the head with a particular
Speaker 6: political ideology. Now maybe, you know, maybe that's because I'm
Speaker 6: you know, I'm a left to set a person, so
Speaker 6: that's just I'm sympathetic, But I do think that I
Speaker 6: do think that narratively that you know, it is a
Speaker 6: good show that just happens to have, you know, plot
Speaker 6: points that illustrate a particular kind of politics, but they're
Speaker 6: not the most important thing in the show. The most
Speaker 6: important thing in the show is that the narrative flows
Speaker 6: organically and movingly and artistically, and it's not simply you know,
Speaker 6: battering you over the head with what to think. At
Speaker 6: the same time, again, like look, you know, this is
Speaker 6: Star Wars, like it's an anti imperial the story is
Speaker 6: always going to be antipol It doesn't matter who the who,
Speaker 6: you know, what form the empire takes, whether it's like
Speaker 6: fifty thousand years in the past or whatever, and it's
Speaker 6: a sip empire, or it's you know, the galactic empire
Speaker 6: that we see in the original trilogy or the first
Speaker 6: Order we see in a sequel trilogy. You know that
Speaker 6: that is always you know, in some sense, that kind
Speaker 6: of rebellion is always that anti authoritarian politics is always
Speaker 6: going to be President's story.
Speaker 1: Something that Rosie and I have been really interested in
Speaker 1: discussing and noting is like the seemingly very conscious human
Speaker 1: supremacy of this story. Star Wars is a you know,
Speaker 1: it's a story in a world, in a galaxy populated
Speaker 1: by lots of different species and and droids, but this
Speaker 1: is a story centered around humans, particularly empire. You don't
Speaker 1: see any droids at the highest levels of the decision
Speaker 1: making the ISB. You mostly see people and white people
Speaker 1: and very few women. Even in this kind of like
Speaker 1: nascent rebellion. You know, Sagerera has as a pretty in
Speaker 1: graded crew. But that's it. I wonder if you might
Speaker 1: expound on, you know, what, what do you think the
Speaker 1: human supremacy of this story, you know, means to the story?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think you know, if you're a
Speaker 6: Star Wars fan, there's a you know that there's a
Speaker 6: long time narrative narrative explanation for this, which is that
Speaker 6: you know, the Empire is racist. The Empire is the
Speaker 6: humans a premicist organization. And you know in Rogue one
Speaker 6: you see you see more weird aliens fighting on the
Speaker 6: beach alongside the rebellion and here in and Or, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, there is a conscious effort to portray the
Speaker 6: protagonists as being sympathetic to droids and aliens in a
Speaker 6: way that the Empire is not. I mean, obviously B
Speaker 6: two Emo is probably the most sympathetic non comic relief
Speaker 6: portrayal of a droid we've ever seen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's basically a very very sweet dog, very.
Speaker 6: But and you know, some of that is in Rogue one,
Speaker 6: you know, the the reprogram imperial droid whose name is
Speaker 6: wagon on k K T s O. Right. I mean,
Speaker 6: like you know when when he sacrifices himself, you know,
Speaker 6: and Or is upset he knows his friend is dead.
Speaker 6: I mean, he's so, but he's sort of at the
Speaker 6: same time he treats him like, you know, you're my droid,
Speaker 6: where it's like B two Emo, there is that moment, uh,
Speaker 6: you know where he's like, I don't want to leave
Speaker 6: the house. Yeah, when and he's like, well, I'll stay
Speaker 6: with you, which is like, you know, a level of
Speaker 6: droids are people that I think we haven't seen before,
Speaker 6: so which I think is like, you know, pulling in
Speaker 6: one of the more problematic threads of Star Wars, which
Speaker 6: is that droids are you know, sort of slaves, but
Speaker 6: nobody ever really acknowledges that. But yeah, I mean, I think,
Speaker 6: you know, we see you know, and then we we
Speaker 6: get that moment where they're escaping from the prison and
Speaker 6: they're you know, they try to they try to hot
Speaker 6: wire the ship of two fishing aliens, and aliens could
Speaker 6: turn them in, but they don't instead because they're like, well,
Speaker 6: we're not going to turn them into the Empire. The
Speaker 6: Empire like we don't like those guys. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: I think I would expect, I mean, the two things
Speaker 6: that you know, I expect from the second season of
Speaker 6: the show, other than a high body count or problem,
Speaker 6: some explanation, like some further explanation of of like sort
Speaker 6: of lay religion when it comes to the forest that
Speaker 6: we saw on Rogue one, and probably like more dealing
Speaker 6: with aliens, although I think, you know, to some extent
Speaker 6: even though there is a narrative explanation for why you
Speaker 6: don't see so many aliens. You know, I think there's
Speaker 6: probably some budget constraints as well. I mean, I think
Speaker 6: there's probably like one of the reasons and or looks
Speaker 6: so good compared to some other Disney Plus series is
Speaker 6: there's a tremendously well done allocation of budget there where
Speaker 6: the story is done in such a way as to
Speaker 6: require a few moments of like crazy special effects, but
Speaker 6: not as many. You know, you don't have you know,
Speaker 6: you don't have two giant dragons fighting each other or
Speaker 6: something like that. You know what I mean that this
Speaker 6: is a story that it's it's I mean like even
Speaker 6: you know, the sort of final episode like is like
Speaker 6: a Shakespeare play where all the characters are on the
Speaker 6: stage at the same time. Like it's written sort of
Speaker 6: like almost like a play, and so you know, it
Speaker 6: does not require it didn't have. You know, there are
Speaker 6: a couple of moments, like you know, when when Luten
Speaker 6: escapes in his ship that are like obviously, like we
Speaker 6: spend a lot of money on this and it was
Speaker 6: very satisfying, but you know, I don't know how much
Speaker 6: of the lack of aliens is a question of budget
Speaker 6: constraints or how much of it is a demand of narrative.
Speaker 6: But you know, those are always you know, those are
Speaker 6: conflicts that even shows that are fund about the mouse
Speaker 6: have to make.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and also as well, like those are the
Speaker 2: confines of the budget can often birth really exciting things.
Speaker 2: So I think the fact that it probably was driven
Speaker 2: by a budget, but then it leads to people having
Speaker 2: conversations like this about whether it's deeper connected to the
Speaker 2: narrative is part of kind of the wonder of these shows.
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody expected a twelve episode Star Wars show
Speaker 2: to look so incredible because we all just assumed it
Speaker 2: was going to be the six episode budget stretched over
Speaker 2: twelve episodes. So it's definitely a surprising tind of event.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's like it's it's impossible, like how
Speaker 6: do you how do you explain how and or looks
Speaker 6: the way it does in Book of Boba Filix the
Speaker 6: way it does, like how do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6: Like it's this I mean even like let's just take
Speaker 6: away the sort of quality of the writing whatever, you know,
Speaker 6: they these shows look completely different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the production design of Pheryx is so textured, it
Speaker 2: feels so real. The finale really leans into that, and
Speaker 2: also extras I think that's the biggest thing. There's so
Speaker 2: many people in and Or, but the Book of Boba
Speaker 2: fairt everywhere you go, only six people live there. Doesn't
Speaker 2: feel it.
Speaker 6: Feels it doesn't feel lived in. It feels like you're
Speaker 6: you're you're looking at a set and I'm not even
Speaker 6: I mean, at some point I was questioning, like, how
Speaker 6: much of the Spherics set has been used in like
Speaker 6: other Star Wars shows. Yeah, it's and somehow it feels unrecognizable,
Speaker 6: like you're not like, oh, this is obviously most icily
Speaker 6: you know that's that's not the reaction you have looking
Speaker 6: at Ferrex. You know consciously that this has probably been
Speaker 6: used before, but it's not. It doesn't. It doesn't feel
Speaker 6: that way because of the way they do it.
Speaker 1: To your point, Rosie, I think part of this, another
Speaker 1: thing we've talked about in past discussions of the show
Speaker 1: is this is really tales of the Jedi side, the
Speaker 1: first depiction of mass protest in a Star Wars universe
Speaker 1: that's real, kind of like Battleship potempk and feel of
Speaker 1: an uprising. You know, against impossible imperial odds. We've never
Speaker 1: seen that before in Star Wars, and it really packs
Speaker 1: a kind of emotional and very ambiguous political punch. You know,
Speaker 1: who doesn't love freedom? You know, people people have crossed
Speaker 1: the ideological spectrum love to talk about freedom. But yet
Speaker 1: the I think part of why it looks so great
Speaker 1: is look at all these people here that are protesting
Speaker 1: against the empire. This is incredible to see.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think Star Wars. I think that
Speaker 6: truth is that the politics of Star Wars were always
Speaker 6: the sort of you know, nineteenth century republicanism in a
Speaker 6: way that was uncontroversial until recently. Yeah, when people started
Speaker 6: you know, uh being like you know, romanticizing like Francoist
Speaker 6: Spain or something like that. You know, this sort of
Speaker 6: like weird neo falangism that you see amongst you know,
Speaker 6: certain circles. But you know, I think I think to
Speaker 6: some extent, that shift in our own politics is really
Speaker 6: the thing that's changed the most. You know, I think, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, and or has like some reflections of our
Speaker 6: era in terms of you know, uh, mass incarceration, the
Speaker 6: issues that animated the George Floyd protests, you know, questions
Speaker 6: about uh, equal protection under the law. But I think
Speaker 6: it's politics will not seem so radical to us were
Speaker 6: it not for our political context. I'm not sure that
Speaker 6: it will feel that way necessarily to future generations. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean, you know Star Wars itself, despite you know,
Speaker 6: the original, despite sort of you know, Lucas saying well,
Speaker 6: you know, the rebels are kind of like the Viet
Speaker 6: Cong or whatever. You know, people didn't interpret it that
Speaker 6: way at the time. Like nobody, nobody who went to
Speaker 6: see Star Wars in nineteen seventy seven. Not nobody, you know,
Speaker 6: I can't say that.
Speaker 1: But yes, the people that were queuing me and four
Speaker 1: times a day to watch the movie.
Speaker 6: Right, people were like laser Stords and spacey you know,
Speaker 6: and like the rebels are us obviously look at these
Speaker 6: British accents. Yeah, and that's that's another thing, like you know,
Speaker 6: this sort of like strain of like irreligion in the Empire.
Speaker 6: It's like, you think about one of the best things
Speaker 6: that Star Wars does. It takes like little threat it's
Speaker 6: from from from previous installments and draws them out. So
Speaker 6: you have, you know, the scene in the first in
Speaker 6: a New Hope, which is like you know, some imperial
Speaker 6: general saying to something you know, uh, you know, you
Speaker 6: don't frighten us with your source service ways, Lord Vader,
Speaker 6: your sad devotion to that ancient religion, you know, just
Speaker 6: like contempt for faith that like you know, then spins
Speaker 6: into like everything we're talking about. Or like there's a
Speaker 6: line in Rogue one where Cheiritt says something about and
Speaker 6: or or like this one has a prison in him
Speaker 6: and he takes it with him wherever he goes. Like
Speaker 6: now you look back at that line, Yeah, you're like
Speaker 6: a holy shit. And this is something that's I mean,
Speaker 6: like you know, this is something that Star Wars does,
Speaker 6: Like you know that scene in In a New Hope
Speaker 6: where Luke runs into the Millennium Falk and he has
Speaker 6: to abandon obi Wan, who you know it is, is
Speaker 6: about to be killed by Vader. You know, that's like
Speaker 6: the last the completion of Order sixty six, except you
Speaker 6: don't know that because it's nineteen seventy seven. But it's
Speaker 6: like that scene where like a padawan has to abandon
Speaker 6: his master who's being killed by the Empire like that.
Speaker 6: We've seen that replay over and over. Yeah, which is
Speaker 6: self you know, which which you know, is it's like
Speaker 6: you can retcon Star Wars in a way that makes
Speaker 6: prior moments that were supposed to be one thing means
Speaker 6: something completely different and being emotionally resonant in a completely
Speaker 6: different way. And it's something that I don't I'm not.
Speaker 6: It's hard to think of another genre or another you know,
Speaker 6: another universe in fictional universe in which that kind of
Speaker 6: thing is really possible in the same way. I mean,
Speaker 6: other people try to do it. I won't mention any names,
Speaker 6: but other people have tried to do it in a
Speaker 6: way that seems like hackey and like just you know,
Speaker 6: trying to preserve a particular brand's relevance for for for
Speaker 6: a certain moment. But with this, it's like people take
Speaker 6: something like like Dave Filonia will take something that was
Speaker 6: in the prequels, the original trilogy and spin it out
Speaker 6: into some narrative complexity that becomes wonderful. And that's and
Speaker 6: or sort of like that on a grand.
Speaker 2: Scale, Yeah, you touched a little bit, I think as well.
Speaker 2: On the trajectory of Star Wars is quite unusual because
Speaker 2: for a long time it was kept alive by these
Speaker 2: you know, expanded universe. Now known as legends novels. So
Speaker 2: in that way, people have always been taking those little
Speaker 2: threads and expanding it out, whether it's a book about
Speaker 2: a character that you didn't realize could have this kind
Speaker 2: of complex interior life. And then that is now continued
Speaker 2: in the way that new creators are taking things and
Speaker 2: collaborating on old ideas to kind of keep the IP going.
Speaker 2: But it's kind of one of the blessings of that
Speaker 2: constraint of, oh, we need to keep this IP alive,
Speaker 2: we need to keep people caring about it. You get
Speaker 2: creators who sometimes come in and see something like Tony
Speaker 2: Gilroy saw and the possibilities of this story to kind
Speaker 2: of tell an entirely different to show an entirely different
Speaker 2: version of what we've seen before. So you wrote your
Speaker 2: piece before this had ended. We are now post to
Speaker 2: the finale of and Or. How do you feel like
Speaker 2: the show hit looking Back is now that you've seen
Speaker 2: the first season.
Speaker 6: I mean, look, it's it's obviously. I think it's one
Speaker 6: of the best interpretations of this universe that we've ever
Speaker 6: seen Artistically from a narrative perspective, I think it's tremendous,
Speaker 6: you know, just in terms of portraying what motivates someone
Speaker 6: to be a rebel or to line up with the empire.
Speaker 6: I think that's just the question that you know, was
Speaker 6: not necessarily previously asked. I mean, I think or at
Speaker 6: least not asked and answered in a way that felt satisfying.
Speaker 6: I mean, when you look at the prequels, you know,
Speaker 6: this is sort of the point of the prequels was
Speaker 6: to say, this is how Darth Vader happened. Yeah, right,
Speaker 6: And you know, the world building in the prequels was
Speaker 6: so good that it created a lot of potential, right,
Speaker 6: but the ultimate narrative of how Darth Vader happened felt
Speaker 6: very unsatisfying for a lot of people. And then you
Speaker 6: had Clone Wars, you know, which really pulled it this
Speaker 6: thread and like portrayed it, like showed this like evolution
Speaker 6: of Anakin as someone who is like slowly being radicalized,
Speaker 6: so that between episode two and episode three, you know,
Speaker 6: Clone Wars gives a tale of how Anakin becomes more
Speaker 6: and more desperate and attached from you know, his own
Speaker 6: self discipline so as to make himself vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations,
Speaker 6: and that so so again in the Grand Tradition, of
Speaker 6: like Rogue one filling a giant Star Wars plot hole.
Speaker 6: Why would the Empire have a super weapon with such
Speaker 6: an easy way to destroy it? Like, I mean, that's
Speaker 6: what Rogue one is, right, it is a movie that
Speaker 6: is devoted Why did the Empire build something that you
Speaker 6: could destroy so easily with this like one loophole? And
Speaker 6: the answers, Oh, because this guy did it as like
Speaker 6: an act of ultimate revenge against the Empire, Like that's
Speaker 6: you know, in the same grand tradition, Like how why
Speaker 6: does Anakin show up in episode three as like sort
Speaker 6: of a psychopath? And the answers, you know, he's been
Speaker 6: frustrated for the Jedi Order for years. They unfairly expelled
Speaker 6: his potwan they you know, there's all the stuff that
Speaker 6: gets filled in that helps make the narrative return make
Speaker 6: more sense. And I think and Or, you know, both
Speaker 6: Rogue one and and Or gives us that, well, what
Speaker 6: happened before episode four, you know what happened to get
Speaker 6: to how did how is the Rebellion build? It gives
Speaker 6: us these answers in a way that I think is
Speaker 6: extremely satisfying, building on you know, not just the the
Speaker 6: the not just the good parts of the old universe,
Speaker 6: but even the bad part. I mean, that's that's one
Speaker 6: of the great things is that you could take a
Speaker 6: plot hole as big as why is why is destroying
Speaker 6: the Death Star? So as easy as you know, shooting
Speaker 6: a torpedo into an exhaust port and spin like a
Speaker 6: beautiful explanation out of it that is emotionally compelling, And
Speaker 6: it's like again, it's this is a plot hole. This
Speaker 6: is a you know, a flaw in the original storytelling,
Speaker 6: and you know, and they somehow made a great story
Speaker 6: out of it, and that's you know, that's that's part
Speaker 6: of the magic of the universe for me.
Speaker 1: Adam, thank you so much for joining us. Do you
Speaker 1: have anything to plug?
Speaker 6: You know, I'll plug our World Cup newsletter right now.
Speaker 6: The World Cup is going on. This is a whole
Speaker 6: other aspect of of my nerd life, but the World
Speaker 6: Cup is going on. Atlantic has a World Cup news letter,
Speaker 6: The Great Game. I'm not the only person writing it.
Speaker 6: There's a lot of other people writing great writers, Clint Smith,
Speaker 6: Adam Harris, Frank Bower, and I highly recommend it, especially
Speaker 6: if you are not, uh, you know, a super soccer fan.
Speaker 6: This is like more for the people who tune into
Speaker 6: the World Cup every four years. And that's it. Thank
Speaker 6: you so much for having me on the show.
Speaker 1: One last thing do you want to this is your
Speaker 1: this is your opportunity, perfect opportunity to to talk trash
Speaker 1: about Chase Serrano, our mutual in a context that that
Speaker 1: he that might get back to him. And then, uh so,
Speaker 1: any any burns, any roasts of Shay that you'd like
Speaker 1: to share on the program today.
Speaker 6: You know, if you had prepared me, I would have.
Speaker 6: I would have thought one up, made a Google docab,
Speaker 6: I would have made it. I would have made an
Speaker 6: Excel document with all my possible Shay zingers. But it's
Speaker 6: hard though, because we're both like, uh you know, we're
Speaker 6: both like bald, high little hobbits. So you know, it
Speaker 6: gets to like anything I said, what am I going
Speaker 6: to say about Shaye that isn't also true about me?
Speaker 6: But yeah, I just so, I guess that'll kind of
Speaker 6: is my burn look like that? How about that?
Speaker 1: Adam? Thank you so much for joining us. Please take care, gosh, yeah,
Speaker 1: a great day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In today's nerd out, where you theorize about your favorite
Speaker 1: fandoms and tell us what you love and why Liz
Speaker 1: theorizes about the Big Man's possible force sensitive nature in
Speaker 1: and Or.
Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, friend of the program, Liz here with a
Speaker 3: wild and Or theory for you. I'm here to talk
Speaker 3: about the top ten ish reasons that I think that
Speaker 3: the fourth sensitive.
Speaker 7: Character that we have been introduced to is Braso.
Speaker 3: Just gonna throw this out here off the top. I
Speaker 3: am obsessed with this show. It is the best Star
Speaker 3: Wars I have seen in years, maybe ever, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Got to wait some time for that recency bias to clear,
Speaker 3: but I'm obsessed with it, and I'm obsessed with it,
Speaker 3: particularly because it does not follow the same Star Wars formulaic,
Speaker 3: space magic whatever heroes trope that we've all come to
Speaker 3: know and love.
Speaker 7: So I don't want or need a forced sensitive character necessarily.
Speaker 3: However, there are some huge indicators that I've noticed and
Speaker 3: I want to share them here, So right off the bat,
Speaker 3: number ten probably not the strongest, but hey, if you
Speaker 3: look at his outfit, he is wearing pretty much the
Speaker 3: same outfit as one of our other favorite Jedi as
Speaker 3: we Bridger.
Speaker 7: That's right.
Speaker 3: Take a look, folks, orange jumpsuit, kind of a weird thing,
Speaker 3: and He's also not wearing the same clothes as the.
Speaker 7: Rest of his friends and his working group. Number nine.
Speaker 7: He is kind to droids.
Speaker 3: I know that that's not a uniquely Jedi characteristic. However,
Speaker 3: it is almost universally true within the Jedi that they
Speaker 3: are kind to droids and other sentient beings in ways
Speaker 3: that regular humans are not.
Speaker 7: Number eight.
Speaker 3: The word force is used incredibly sparingly in the show.
Speaker 3: I think just a handful of times, and one of
Speaker 3: those times is brus Oh.
Speaker 7: Yes, he is relaying a message from Marva.
Speaker 3: However, you cannot ignore the fact that that word is
Speaker 3: only used a handful of times, and one of those
Speaker 3: times is coming from this man's mouth.
Speaker 7: Number seven.
Speaker 3: There is something so force poetic about using a brick
Speaker 3: made of an anti fascist loved one to beat fascists
Speaker 3: straight up period.
Speaker 7: Number six.
Speaker 3: He has an incredible sense of knowledge and timing that
Speaker 3: I think is a little suspect. For example, in episode three,
Speaker 3: it's implied, or I inferred.
Speaker 7: That he is the one who tied the.
Speaker 3: Corpos shipped down while they were trying to grab Cassian,
Speaker 3: and he is the one who affixed that ship to it,
Speaker 3: causing the pilot to die. That pilot was the one
Speaker 3: who killed Tim. Now to be clear, fucked Tim. He
Speaker 3: fucking ratted on Cassie into the Corpos. All Corpos are
Speaker 3: bastards whatever whatever. Attim did not deserve to die like that.
Speaker 7: Fuck that Corpo.
Speaker 3: Awesome that Brosso seemed to know that this is the
Speaker 3: dude and this is how to get him.
Speaker 7: Number five.
Speaker 3: His sense of timing is also pretty incredible, thinking about
Speaker 3: the fact that he started that funeral with his own
Speaker 3: sort of motion. That funeral was supposed to take place
Speaker 3: several hours after it it actually did, and the timing
Speaker 3: ended up being such that all of the Imperial guards
Speaker 3: were away from the hotel when Cassie and needed them
Speaker 3: to be away so that he could rescue Bicks. Just
Speaker 3: thrown out there, very coincidental timing. Number four. That man
Speaker 3: knows when to go and when to fight. Look at
Speaker 3: episode twelve. He is in the thick of that ride.
Speaker 3: He fucking started that ride rightfully. So how dare that
Speaker 3: Imperial piece of shit? Kick be too emo? My favorite
Speaker 3: joy they have maybe Chopper, but very's wrong contender for
Speaker 3: favor Droid. But he knows when it's time to go,
Speaker 3: And that's also a uniquely Jedi characteristic number three. Knows
Speaker 3: what people are doing and feeling. He knows that Cassian
Speaker 3: has turned a corner when he meets with him in
Speaker 3: that tunnel. He knows that he's going to go and
Speaker 3: rescue Bicks. He knows that Cassian's not going.
Speaker 7: To go with them.
Speaker 3: At the end of episode twelve, he knows that Pegla
Speaker 3: is not going to go with them.
Speaker 7: He just seems to know things about people.
Speaker 3: I think that's very interesting because we don't know anything
Speaker 3: about him. We don't know where he came from, we
Speaker 3: don't know if he has family, we don't know what
Speaker 3: his background is like.
Speaker 7: And that also lends credit to the theory that he's
Speaker 7: for sensitive, because the question of course ariveses this man
Speaker 7: isn't like fifteen years old.
Speaker 3: Where were the Jedi when he was born? How come
Speaker 3: they didn't detect his forced sensitivity? If he's for sensitive, truly,
Speaker 3: we don't know anything about him, and Anakin didn't get detected,
Speaker 3: so there's a possibility that there are other Force users
Speaker 3: out there that didn't get to We now come to
Speaker 3: probably the two biggest components to my theory. Number two,
Speaker 3: that man shook an Imperial detail to go and meet
Speaker 3: with the most wanted man on Ferris in episode twelve
Speaker 3: and give him vital information from Marba, basically bolstering him up,
Speaker 3: allowing him to go and be the hero that he
Speaker 3: needs to be for the day. I think that's pretty
Speaker 3: Jedi and number one, the Imperials nicknamed him the big Man,
Speaker 3: this large target, calmly walked through heavy blaster fire to
Speaker 3: pull out Lill Pop and take him away from danger.
Speaker 3: Didn't get hit, didn't really even seem fluxed.
Speaker 7: That's to me pretty indicative.
Speaker 2: There we go.
Speaker 7: Those are my top ten. Fight me whatever you want
Speaker 7: to do.
Speaker 3: But that's what I thought. I am going to close
Speaker 3: just gushing a little bit. Like I said at the top,
Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with this show. It brings the Star Wars
Speaker 3: themes that I've been so desperate to see right to
Speaker 3: the forefront, without using any of the.
Speaker 7: Tropes that you know Star Wars has come to rely on.
Speaker 3: I am deeply invested in these characters, knowing that most
Speaker 3: of them are doomed, and I cannot wait for next season.
Speaker 7: I'm sure you guys are right there with me.
Speaker 1: Thanks Liz for submitting. Thank you everyone who's submitted to
Speaker 1: Nerd outs this year and stay tuned for the return
Speaker 1: of the segment in twenty twenty three. Huge thank you
Speaker 1: to Adam Sewerr and of course Rosy Knight, Rosie Plugs,
Speaker 1: Plugs Plugs, Can you give us one other very vague
Speaker 1: clue about an upcoming secret project that you have?
Speaker 2: You know, I can actually say, because this is true
Speaker 2: of a few different things. Yes, I am working. The
Speaker 2: project I'm working on at the moment also has art
Speaker 2: by the incredible Oliver Ono, so I can say that.
Speaker 2: So it's a ret and that's a couple of different things,
Speaker 2: So that's very exciting. Plugs Rosie marks. On Instagram you
Speaker 2: can find me and letterbox under the same thing. My
Speaker 2: biggest plug would be that we are going to be
Speaker 2: at We're gonna be La Comic Con. If you listen
Speaker 2: to this on Friday, we will be there on Saturday,
Speaker 2: come and see us.
Speaker 1: I'm through.
Speaker 2: We will be there tomorrow. It's going to be our
Speaker 2: first live comic com recording. You should come. It will
Speaker 2: be really fun and yeah, it we'll just be It
Speaker 2: will be a blast and eli Comicon's pray chill compared
Speaker 2: to the other comic cons.
Speaker 1: Catch our next episode on December ninth. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: subscribe to the show on YouTube and follow at xrvpod
Speaker 1: on Twitter who knows for how much longer, and check
Speaker 1: out the discord and me to hang out with other
Speaker 1: X ray Vision fans. Rosie and I are there. We
Speaker 1: are interacting and communicating with everybody there and it's really
Speaker 1: fun community. Of course, as Rosie said, La Comic Con
Speaker 1: tomorrow December third, Saturday, December third at eleven thirty am
Speaker 1: and Room four h two come through and see us
Speaker 1: five star reviews. We love them, we need them, We
Speaker 1: got to have them. Here's one from Hop Jake, a
Speaker 1: show I never missed. Jason and Rosie have such great
Speaker 1: chemistry together. When they make each other laugh, you can't
Speaker 1: help but smile as if you're all sitting at a
Speaker 1: table with friends nerding out. Thank you, Hop Jake, that's
Speaker 1: so awesome, and thanksgivings over. But we want to special
Speaker 1: thank you to everybody who's been listening to the pod
Speaker 1: and everybody who's been sharing your Spotify wraps. You're end
Speaker 1: wrap ups of all the stuff you've been listening to
Speaker 1: on that platform that have included X ray Vision and
Speaker 1: have tagged us in it. That's so nice of you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, thank you. I wanted to quickly
Speaker 1: share a note with you about someone who's added a
Speaker 1: lot to X ray Vision. Brian Vasquez, who composed and
Speaker 1: produced the music x ray Vision to takeline to various
Speaker 1: other Cricket pods and also compose the interstitial music, has
Speaker 1: recently been diagnosed with leukemia. It's very unfortunate that we
Speaker 1: live in a country where people who fall ill then
Speaker 1: have to ask for money, but here we are. His
Speaker 1: family has set up a GoFundMe. If you want to
Speaker 1: support him and give best wishes to his family, you
Speaker 1: can find information about that on the show notes. We're
Speaker 1: wishing the best for Brian and he's in our thoughts.
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show
Speaker 1: is produced by Chris Lord and Soul Rubin. The show
Speaker 1: is executive produced by myself and Sandy's Rhard Are editing
Speaker 1: and sound designers by Vascillis Fatopoulos, Dilon Villanueva and Matt
Speaker 1: Group provide video production support. Alex Rellaford handle social media.
Speaker 1: Thank you Brian Vasquez for theme music. See you next time,
Speaker 1: everybody e