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Speaker 1: After a ballgame one evening under a street lights. First

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Speaker 1: time I seen him. The first time I seen him,

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Speaker 1: I was one hundred percent sure he's two hundred inch deer,

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Speaker 1: which I'd never seen a while deer with two hundred

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Speaker 1: inch and still at that time wanted to kill this deer.

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Speaker 2: Right, we're slipping into the year twenty twenty four behind

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Speaker 2: the dull thwack of a bow string as a steel

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Speaker 2: tipped arrow arches into the throat patch of a two

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Speaker 2: hundred and four and four to eight inch drop time

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Speaker 2: Missouri whitetail buck. This might sound like a moment of celebration,

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Speaker 2: but you'd be mistaken if you thought that. For this archer,

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Speaker 2: it was the beginning of a nightmare. On this episode,

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Speaker 2: we're going to reveal the details of an egregious wildlife crime.

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Speaker 2: But we won't be talking to the warden who cracked

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Speaker 2: the case or the property owner of where the buck

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Speaker 2: was poached. We're going to talk to the guy who's

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Speaker 2: squeak the trigger, who devised a plan to falsify the

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Speaker 2: location of the kill and decided the only thing that

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Speaker 2: he could do was live. We will meet the man who,

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine illegally killed a Boone and

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Speaker 2: Crockett class buck on the Fort Leonardwood Military base near Waynesville, Missouri.

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Speaker 2: It's a rare occurrence when someone is willing to open

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Speaker 2: up about their failures. But that's exactly why I was

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Speaker 2: intrigued by this story and this man, this poacher. However,

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Speaker 2: as the hackles of justice rise on your neck, I

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Speaker 2: want to raise a question of my own. How is

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Speaker 2: a society do we judge criminals? How do we decide

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Speaker 2: if we demand justice or extend mercy? How do we

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Speaker 2: decide who to forgive? Because it's clear that each situation

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Speaker 2: is treated differently, we'll learn that it has a lot

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Speaker 2: to do with how the accused apologize. I'm interested in

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Speaker 2: the metrics use to evaluate this story. We'll be talking

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Speaker 2: with an expert to learn more. But the answer of

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Speaker 2: this should be evident because you likely cast judgment and

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Speaker 2: forgiveness almost daily, and the answer will shine deeply into

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Speaker 2: our humanness, our value systems, and sometimes our own hypocrisy.

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Speaker 2: And hey, if you want to hear all about and

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Speaker 2: I mean all about how poaching this giant deer went down,

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Speaker 2: then you're not going to want to miss this one.

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Speaker 1: To walk up on him and grab his antlers. You

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Speaker 1: should feel the most excitement you've ever had in your life,

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Speaker 1: other than like one of your kids being born or something.

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Speaker 1: And I kind of have the opposite feeling, and immediately

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Speaker 1: I thought, there's no way that I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: away with this.

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Speaker 2: My name is Clay Nukem, and this is the Bear

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Speaker 2: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search

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Speaker 2: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the

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Speaker 2: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land.

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Speaker 2: Presented by FHF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and

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Speaker 2: fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the

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Speaker 2: place as we explore. As I travel through central Missouri,

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Speaker 2: stopping at gas stations, having lunch in a small town

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Speaker 2: catfish restaurant, I'm struck by how mid American this place is.

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Speaker 2: The geographic center of America is Lebanon, Kansas, but I'd

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Speaker 2: be tempted to think that it's Dixon, Missouri, which is

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Speaker 2: derned near the center of the show me state. And

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Speaker 2: I really like miss Zuri like the gouy center of

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Speaker 2: a cinnamon roll. The people are hospitable, genuine and modest.

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Speaker 2: They seem more trusting than the exterior parts of America.

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Speaker 2: My trip up here started about a week prior. I'd

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Speaker 2: been contacted by a guy paying Brent and I a

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Speaker 2: much appreciated compliment when he slipped in a few sentences

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Speaker 2: that caught my attention like a mule when a feed

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Speaker 2: bucket rattles. He wrote, I killed a two hundred and

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Speaker 2: four inch buck on Fort Leonard Wood in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and nine. I let greed in the thought that I

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Speaker 2: had to kill him to be a man get the

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Speaker 2: best of me. A buddy of mine posted a picture

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Speaker 2: on a website and it blew up. Two weeks after

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Speaker 2: I killed him, I was arrested at work and things

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Speaker 2: got bad. The message continued on with more details, but

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Speaker 2: he insinuated that his life unraveled after the event in

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Speaker 2: the bigger way than the confiscations and fines instituted by

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Speaker 2: a government agency. Something about him and the story caught

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Speaker 2: my attention. It wasn't just the size of the buck,

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Speaker 2: but a rare genuineness in him. I caught the whiff

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Speaker 2: of a man who'd been through the ringer, and I

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Speaker 2: figured yet a unique angle on life. At first, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know what his motivation would be for talking, but

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Speaker 2: I was about to find out. In my next message,

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Speaker 2: I asked if he'd be willing to tell this story publicly.

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Speaker 2: To my surprise, he said that he would. I want

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Speaker 2: you guys to meet Donnie Baker of Dixon, Missouri. He's

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Speaker 2: forty years old, a widower, a father of two teenage children.

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Speaker 2: He loves to run beagles and bowhunt, and by trade,

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Speaker 2: he's a telecommunications technician. But before we meet Donnie, I

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Speaker 2: would like to strike a deal with you, the listener.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you the story if you will keep in mind.

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Speaker 2: So all I'm asking you keep in mind that he

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Speaker 2: didn't have to tell us this one. He didn't have

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Speaker 2: to tell us about one of the worst moments in

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Speaker 2: his life. He didn't owe that to me or you.

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Speaker 2: He volunteered it. And in a way, he's putting himself

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Speaker 2: on public trial again. We're going to hear the case

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Speaker 2: and make a judgment. These events took place over fourteen

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Speaker 2: years ago, So our deal is that you just keep

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Speaker 2: that in mind. Now we're going to dive right into

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Speaker 2: the story with Donnie. Where do you think a good

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Speaker 2: place to start would be.

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Speaker 1: Probably about the first time I seen that, dear yeah,

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Speaker 1: would have been in two thousand and seven. I was

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Speaker 1: playing softball in Fort Leonard Wood and the guy that

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Speaker 1: ran the league on Fort Wood's name is John Clapp.

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Speaker 1: After a ballgame, he hollered at means and I guess

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Speaker 1: they call it like a bird's nest or whatever. It's

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Speaker 1: a tower in between all the fields. He said, come

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Speaker 1: up here, I want to show you something. When I

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Speaker 1: got up there, that buck was out there feeding. It

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Speaker 1: was a big mainframe ten and on its right beam

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Speaker 1: it had it just looked like a softball. It's a

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Speaker 1: big knot, and that's what they called it was softball.

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Speaker 1: The ballplayers that year, everybody had eventually seen it. The

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Speaker 1: deer was always down there by, and it was after dark,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was being illuminated by the ballfield lines.

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Speaker 1: And after I saw it, my wife and I were

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Speaker 1: dating at the time. We drove around many nights looking

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Speaker 1: for him and seeing him. Seeing him a few times

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Speaker 1: that year. He would have probably been closer to a

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty inch deer at that time.

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Speaker 2: This story begins with almost biblical vibes to me, like

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Speaker 2: when King David looked off the balcony and saw Bathsheba

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Speaker 2: bathing on the rooftop below. She was off limits married,

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Speaker 2: and David knew it that something took seed in David's

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Speaker 2: heart and he began to devise a plan to apprehend

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Speaker 2: the Contraband This isn't exact exactly the sequence of what

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Speaker 2: happened with Donnie.

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Speaker 1: It was a.

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Speaker 2: Different internal track towards violation, and as it turns out,

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Speaker 2: there are uncountable circuitous ways that can lead a man

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Speaker 2: to it. Fort Leonard Wood is a sixty one thousand

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Speaker 2: acre military base in central Missouri, near the towns of

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Speaker 2: Waynesville and Saint Roberts. It's about an hour northeast of

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Speaker 2: Springfield and two hours west of Saint Louis. It's open

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Speaker 2: to all kinds of hunting for people who have a

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Speaker 2: permit and take a training course. However, there are areas

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Speaker 2: where you cannot hunt, and this is important to remember.

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Speaker 2: Large sections of the base are off limits to hunting,

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Speaker 2: and everyone knows this. This is common for military bases

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Speaker 2: where the public is allowed to hunt. But what I

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Speaker 2: have not told you yet is that Donnie worked on

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Speaker 2: the base. He started the base's first archery pro shop,

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Speaker 2: owned by the military, designed to service the soldiers and

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Speaker 2: their families who wanted to bow hunt. Donnie was an insider,

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Speaker 2: and if you're like me, you probably just got your

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Speaker 2: justice and Judgment scorecard out and are keeping track of

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Speaker 2: the data points. And this tidbit is not favorable. When

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Speaker 2: you saw this deer, like what what were you thinking?

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Speaker 2: Were you thinking, I want to.

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Speaker 1: Kill us deer? Yeah, and at that time it really wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It moved a couple of times. It was close to

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Speaker 1: a hunting area. There was a few people hunting him there.

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Speaker 1: He was coming out of a legit hunting area and

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Speaker 1: I hunted that area. But honestly, when I went to hunting,

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Speaker 1: I'd say it was probably the tenth person to see

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Speaker 1: that deer. So when I went to that area to

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Speaker 1: hunt it, there was just looked like the Walmart parking lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, anybody see that deer would hunt it. And

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Speaker 1: it just took a little That was in the beginning

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Speaker 1: of season and that was it for him. So I'm

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Speaker 1: sure the pressure or whatever he went to wherever he hides,

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Speaker 1: Like what was your mind frame at that time in

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Speaker 1: your life? Would you have broken the law before? And

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Speaker 1: you would have thought I'd do whatever it takes to

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Speaker 1: kill that deer. I'm maybe, but he wasn't. I seen

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Speaker 1: the deer a couple times after that and probably could

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Speaker 1: have done something, but at the time, killing it wrong

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Speaker 1: it wasn't what I was trying to do. I'd like

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Speaker 1: to kill that deer right. Killing him illegally wasn't even

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Speaker 1: I really didn't consider it.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting on a brown cloth couch across from Donnie,

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Speaker 2: who's in a leather recliner in his comfortable, modest home

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Speaker 2: outside of Dixon. The room is full of handsome shoulder

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Speaker 2: mounted bucks killed by he and his son, most of

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Speaker 2: which are archery kills. I'd shaken this man's hand for

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Speaker 2: the first time all of thirty minutes before this conversation.

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised by how comfortable he is telling me this story,

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Speaker 2: and by how much it seems like he's telling me

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Speaker 2: the real story. He isn't justifying his actions, he's not defensive,

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Speaker 2: and for this, on my checklist, he gets some points

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Speaker 2: for genuineness. I'm mesmerized by every word of this story,

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Speaker 2: literally on the edge of my seat. But I'm also

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Speaker 2: looking into his soul, trying to discern if he's telling

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Speaker 2: me the truth, and I think he is. I ask

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Speaker 2: him for more details. In eight, i'd heard stories of

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Speaker 2: people seeing him, but I don't. I don't believe I

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Speaker 2: ever saw him in O eight. When O nine come

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Speaker 2: around summer of nine, everybody that hunts out there drives

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Speaker 2: around of an evening right at dark to see where

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Speaker 2: the deer are.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just just something you can do. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of roads on Fort Wood and you can

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Speaker 1: find something to hunt like that and not lighting them

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Speaker 1: or anything, but just a dusk. And it's playing ball

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Speaker 1: at the time. One evening after ball, I make the

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Speaker 1: circle in an Army street. It's a street that connects

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Speaker 1: Nebraska and First Street, and after a ball game, one

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Speaker 1: evening under a street lights, first time I seen him.

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Speaker 1: And that'll play into some of this as well, that

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Speaker 1: that deer had seen a lot of people and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't as wild as as some deer. I'm sure the

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Speaker 1: first time I seen him, I was one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: sure he's two hundred inch deer, which I'd never seen

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Speaker 1: a wild deer with two hundred inch and still at

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Speaker 1: that time wanted to kill this deer.

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Speaker 2: Right, He gets honesty points by telling me the deer

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Speaker 2: was accustomed to human presence. Often people leave out parts

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Speaker 2: of stories that are less flattering, adding in parts that

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Speaker 2: make them seem competent. I think I probably do that

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Speaker 2: a lot. Donnie didn't have to say that about the deer,

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Speaker 2: and the stakes also just got a bunch higher in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, when the deer was now believed

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Speaker 2: to be over two hundred inches. I've seen pictures of

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Speaker 2: this buck. He's a mainframe ten point over twenty inches

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Speaker 2: wide with two dagger like four inch kickers coming off

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Speaker 2: the right base. He's got a big flyer off the

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Speaker 2: G two, which is the second time, and the cherry

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Speaker 2: on top is that he he's got a Grade A

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Speaker 2: American classic tenants drop time with a black lump on

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Speaker 2: the end. You know what I'm talking about if you

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Speaker 2: are a whitetail antler officionado. The left antler is a

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Speaker 2: typical five point side with a cluster of small drop

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Speaker 2: times just below the G two. The deer is a

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Speaker 2: jaw dropper, and for any serious whitetail hunter, the two

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Speaker 2: hundred inch mark is a pinnacle number that I'd guess

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Speaker 2: ninety nine percent of hunters will never even see a

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Speaker 2: deer that big in the woods much less kill one

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Speaker 2: and as a culture, we've been messing around with giving

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Speaker 2: cultural value to big antlers for over one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty years, so we know they make people do crazy things.

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Speaker 2: But here's an analogy for the uninformed to describe the situation.

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Speaker 2: Everybody sees money all the time that they don't have

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Speaker 2: permission to take, like when you see cash and a

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Speaker 2: cash register at the store, and hunters see bucks pretty

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Speaker 2: often that they don't have permission to take. So here's

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Speaker 2: an analogy. The difference between seeing a one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty five inch eight point, which would be a handsome

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Speaker 2: buck anywhere in the country, and seeing a two hundred

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Speaker 2: inch buck would be akin to seeing one hundred dollars

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Speaker 2: bill on the table, which would be the eight point,

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Speaker 2: next to a stack of one hundred thousand dollars cash,

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Speaker 2: which would be the two hundred incher. It's a big divide,

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Speaker 2: But Donnie wasn't planning on taking the one hundred k

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Speaker 2: off the table. He planned to earn it fair and square,

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Speaker 2: and he had proven that in the previous years. But

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Speaker 2: so goes the plans of mice and men. And I

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Speaker 2: have a quick question for you. Just think about this

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Speaker 2: should the size of a buck matter in a poaching case? Secondly,

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Speaker 2: a more personal question, would you go easier on a

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Speaker 2: poacher that killed a basket rack eight point versus a

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Speaker 2: hundred hundred and fifty inch deer? And if you have

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Speaker 2: a clear answer, tell me why. Let's get back to

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Speaker 2: Donnie though. Here's a description of where the buck lived.

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Speaker 1: Through the rest of the summer getting into the fall. See him,

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Speaker 1: I think, six times, always in the same place, on

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Speaker 1: the same street. What that deer done. He lived in

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Speaker 1: a little little block of brush behind a dining facility.

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Speaker 1: And this deer's in the place you could legally hunting. No, sir,

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Speaker 1: I never seen it in a legal hunting area. It

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Speaker 1: was one hundred percent no. It was a contonement area.

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Speaker 1: There was a running track there, dining facility, people parked

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Speaker 1: around there. I mean it was defined. I mean everybody

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Speaker 1: that hunts their nose, you cannot kill this.

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Speaker 2: So at that time, where you considering hunting it illegally?

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Speaker 1: No? At that time, I set cameras where I would

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Speaker 1: see deer leave that area going into hunting areas because

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Speaker 1: I knew, however he winted those hunting areas, he would

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Speaker 1: come back the same way. He was pretty calm deer.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if I never did get a

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Speaker 1: picture of him, never did get a game camera picture

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Speaker 1: of you.

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Speaker 2: At the time, Donnie was twenty six years old and

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Speaker 2: he was a solid white tailed bow hunter and an

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Speaker 2: archery expert. Remember he started the archery shop on the base.

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Speaker 2: He'd formulated a solid strategy to hunt this buck legally. However,

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Speaker 2: an early October evening drive would hijack his plan and

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Speaker 2: his character. And I've got a second question for you.

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Speaker 2: Does premeditated intent matter if the results are the same

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Speaker 2: a dead buck or a crime committed, Why does the

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Speaker 2: intent matter? Just think about it. But we're going to

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Speaker 2: go back now to the character hijack. Here's Donnie October

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Speaker 2: fourth of nine. I'd till through the day I was

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Speaker 2: allowed to shoot my bow. I could help people shoot,

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Speaker 2: and I go down the range take my bow and

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Speaker 2: help sight in their bows and stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'd shot my bone. I mean, I was dressed by

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Speaker 1: like I am here, in blue jeans and probably I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it was cool evening. I'd say, probably a camel hoodie.

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Speaker 1: I'd shot my bow a little bit. I was driving

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Speaker 1: a white Ford four door truck with a topper on it.

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Speaker 1: I hit Army Streets soon as work was over, and

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Speaker 1: when I was going to drive down through their see

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Speaker 1: if I could see him. And as I'm driving down

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Speaker 1: Army Street and it's it's not quite dusk yet, there's

295
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Speaker 1: quite a bit of light. I looked to my left

296
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Speaker 1: and he's standing where I've seen him two or three times.

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Speaker 1: I thought, good grief.

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Speaker 2: This good grief moment combined a new trio of circumstances

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Speaker 2: that Donnie had yet to confront. He'd seen the buck

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Speaker 2: multiple times over the last two years and never attempted

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Speaker 2: to illegally kill it. However, this was the first time

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Speaker 2: he'd seen it. Number one during the archery season, number

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Speaker 2: two when he had a bow in the truck, and

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Speaker 2: number three it was now a two hundred inch deer

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Speaker 2: that was in striking distance standing in the ditch. It

306
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Speaker 2: was a one two three judo kick that knocked him

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Speaker 2: out cold. Every encounter up until this point had been

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Speaker 2: buffered by barriers Donnie was unwilling to cross. However, this

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Speaker 2: one was new. I think Biblical references are fair game

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Speaker 2: here because of the influence of Judeo Christian ideology and

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Speaker 2: American culture, whether you realize it or not. Early in

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Speaker 2: this ancient book, in Genesis chapter four, there's the story

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Speaker 2: of Cain who killed his brother Abel because of jealousy.

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Speaker 2: Prior to the murder, he was warned to watch out

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Speaker 2: for crouching sin. It reads, then the Lord said to Cain,

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Speaker 2: sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you,

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Speaker 2: but you must rule over it. This is a really

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Speaker 2: fundamental and foundational aspect of human life that people have

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Speaker 2: to deal with whatever they want to call it. If

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Speaker 2: they want to call it sin evil doing something wrong,

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Speaker 2: like we all have this kind of code that we

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Speaker 2: live by in our cultures. The Bible it wasn't the

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Speaker 2: only book that talked about this, but it really helped

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Speaker 2: introduce it to civilization. Life is a series of unfolding opportunities,

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Speaker 2: often out of our control, but we are in control

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Speaker 2: of how we respond to those opportunities. But the age

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Speaker 2: old question is how much temptation can a person resist

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Speaker 2: until they break their declared value system, until they're unable

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Speaker 2: to rule over the power of the crouching evil. The

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Speaker 2: ancient philosopher Socrates exhorted people to know thyself, which he

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Speaker 2: was saying be aware of your limitations, be aware of

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Speaker 2: your motivations, and make educated adjustments to your life based

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Speaker 2: on this knowledge. The universal nature of the cane Able

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Speaker 2: story is profound because its application isn't just in murder, poaching,

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Speaker 2: or bank robbery. It's in the small decisions in our

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Speaker 2: lives that no one else sees. Now we're back to

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Speaker 2: Donnie in the truck with this bow within striking distance

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Speaker 2: of a crouched lion.

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Speaker 1: So I drived in Nebraska, turned around, and when I

340
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Speaker 1: come back, I'm looking over there. Where he was at

341
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Speaker 1: was because he was seventy five to one hundred yards

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Speaker 1: off the road and he's nowhere to be seen. I thought, well,

343
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Speaker 1: he spooked and I turned to my left and he

344
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 1: was right in the road ditch on the north side

345
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Speaker 1: of the army, I mean right there. And that's when

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Speaker 1: I put it all together. There's a huge culvert there.

347
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Speaker 1: It's almost a concrete bridge. He wasn't crossing over the highway.

348
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Speaker 1: He was walking under it, so as I kind of

349
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Speaker 1: hit my brakes and it spooks him a little bit

350
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Speaker 1: and he hops down to the timber line. Well, when

351
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Speaker 1: he gets to the timberline, in front of him are

352
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Speaker 1: two really good bucks. It was a massive, huge eight

353
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Speaker 1: point with little bitty brow tines and a really nice ten.

354
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Speaker 1: So I pulled down. There's a running track there and

355
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Speaker 1: some porta potties. So I pulled down to those porta

356
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Speaker 1: potties and I thought, I thought I could kill it

357
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Speaker 1: deer right there. And like I said, it was just

358
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Speaker 1: just kind of I don't know if you ever when

359
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 1: you was a kid shot at a bird on a

360
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Speaker 1: sitting in a tree or something, just kind of and

361
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Speaker 1: then when you do kill it, you think, oh man,

362
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I went through there. But I

363
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: knew it was a non hunting area, so I grabbed

364
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,360
Speaker 1: my bow and and just jeans and boots, and well

365
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 1: behind the porta potties up this little rise and there

366
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Speaker 1: was a big old red oak that had died and

367
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 1: fell over. And when I got to that red oak,

368
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Speaker 1: I was considering if I should hucker down there or

369
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Speaker 1: climb over it. And as I'm as, I'm contemplating that.

370
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Speaker 2: So I mean, at this point, you've made a decision,

371
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Speaker 2: You're legally kill this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And let me ask you this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think every human has experienced a moral

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Speaker 2: dilemma of being given an opportunity that they know is

375
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Speaker 2: wrong and then not taking it.

376
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but then.

377
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Speaker 2: There's like this this suck, this drawl, something happens that

378
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you cross into a red zone

379
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Speaker 2: and it's something flips.

380
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well was at this time, Clay I had I

381
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Speaker 1: had I'd had twenty two in my truck multiple times

382
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Speaker 1: from squirrel hunting when I'd seen this deer. You know,

383
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Speaker 1: if I had set out to poach this deer, I mean,

384
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Speaker 1: I could have shot it many times. But when I

385
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 1: saw that deer for the first time, I said, I've

386
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 1: got to kill that deer. I mean, he just felt

387
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: like that was almost a rite of passage for people

388
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Speaker 1: who think that I was a good quality bow hunters.

389
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Speaker 1: I was gonna have to kill this monster deer.

390
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Speaker 2: There's some profoundness in Donnie's honest, simple conclusion of his motivation.

391
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 2: He was a twenty six year old man hungry for

392
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 2: validation from the world around him, and killing a big

393
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: deer with his bow was a pathway to gain respect.

394
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Speaker 2: I get it. I remember when the picture of the

395
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 2: first decent deer that I killed hung on the wall

396
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: at the local bow shop, and I soaked up any

397
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 2: validation that I could get from anywhere. Validation for grand

398
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 2: feats are important in a young man's life or a

399
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: young woman's life, but when they're stolen, the system is

400
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,439
Speaker 2: cheated and it produces the opposite of what it's supposed to.

401
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 2: It's supposed to create identity and self confidence and a

402
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 2: sense of worth, but what it actually creates is insecurity

403
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: when it's stolen. But let's get back to Donnie. Here's

404
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: what happened.

405
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: So when I knew where that deer was going to go,

406
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 1: I knew it was illegal, but never really give that

407
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: a consideration. Just the only thing I was saying about

408
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: is wanting to kill it deer. I needed to kill

409
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 1: that deer some reason. I just thought that that's something

410
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: I had to do. And as they get to that

411
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: red oak, I'm considered if I need to climb over

412
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: to hunker down there, And it's just a few yards

413
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: off of it's a high line, and it's kind of

414
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: it's pretty clean. There's a little brush there. As I'm

415
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm moving around, and I look up in

416
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: that big ten is twenty five yards from me, staring

417
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: at me. Well, he blows and takes off running, and

418
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: I thought gosh, dang. I mean I blew that up,

419
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: still not thinking, you know, hope nobody's seen me or whatever.

420
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: And as I watched them cross Army Street, I look

421
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: back where they were, and probably thirty five yards behind him,

422
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: that bucks stand there staring right at me, wide open

423
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: between he and I. I really believe if he was

424
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: a National Forest wild deer, he'd have been gone to

425
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: you know. I shoot a single pin hha side, and

426
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: I had had an arrow knock. I knocked narrow forore.

427
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: I set my bow on that red oak, trying to

428
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: side where I was gonna try to get so I

429
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 1: draw my bow back and he's still just standing there.

430
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean, he's looking right at me. I know that

431
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: if I can fall it into his front end, high

432
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: success rate killing him. And I put that pin right

433
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: underneath his nose, just right about the top of his

434
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 1: white patch and turn it blues.

435
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: I wonder how long it took at him after sinking

436
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 2: his teeth through the skin of the forbidden apple, to

437
00:24:53,760 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: regret his decision. The bite initiated a sequence of unretractable consequence.

438
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: Man's always had a problem with laws, breaking them, that is,

439
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: But laws are the guideposts of societal security designed for

440
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: the well being of us. All the truth is is

441
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: that everybody wants some form of law in their life

442
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: to protect them and their interests, even in a time

443
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: in America where we're talking about liberty and freedom and

444
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: laws take away all this stuff, which I am generally

445
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: absolutely in agreement with. However, I'm telling you we all

446
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: love laws, but we like to cherry pick. The ones

447
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: that we'd like to break are the ones that infringe

448
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: upon our personal freedom. And it's kind of bizarre. Human

449
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 2: life is complex, society's complex. As I'm sitting here with

450
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: Donnie hearing this story for the first time, I am

451
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: struck with a palpable sense of remorse as the arrow

452
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 2: drifts through the air and hits the buck just below

453
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: the throat patch. Later we'll learn that as a society

454
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: we demand remorse from the people who've cheated the system.

455
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: But I'm way ahead of myself. The buck has just

456
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: been shot.

457
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: First thing I think is I shot him right in

458
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: the front leg. And that was the first sick feeling

459
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: I got in bout I thought, oh my gosh, I

460
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: just woined that monster, dear, and shouldn't he been doing this?

461
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: And that's still running through my mind when I hear

462
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: him crash, and then reality starts setting in good grief.

463
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: So I set my bow down, ease up to the eye,

464
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: look around, make sure there's no cars coming down the highway.

465
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: And there's nobody really in that area at that time.

466
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: Nobody had to run and track where I was parking

467
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: with him, So I, instead of blood trailing him, I

468
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: kind of stay out of sight, and I sneak down

469
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: there where I thought I heard him crash and he's

470
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: laying there dead, and to walk up on him and

471
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: grab his antlers. You should feel the most excitement you've

472
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: ever had in your life, other than like one of

473
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: your kids being born or something. And I kind of

474
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: had the opposite feeling. And I immediately I thought, there's

475
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: no that I'm going to get away with this.

476
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: There's no way that I'm going to get away with this.

477
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: That's an interesting thought to slide across a man's mind

478
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: moments after an egregious error. The imminent doom of being

479
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: guilty often brings the onset of Shakespeare's Macbeth syndrome, when

480
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: he said, quote, I am in blood steeped in so

481
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: far that should I weigh no more returning were as

482
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 2: tedious as going over. A modern way to say that

483
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: would be I'm so deep in this thing covered in

484
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: blood that to turn back now would be as treacherous

485
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: as continuing forward. And this thing brings Donnie to another

486
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: juncture of decision. What does he do now?

487
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: Well, as I'm looking at this deer, it broke one

488
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: of its brow tines off, falling there. I can see

489
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: where it's antlers that hit the dirt, and I'm kind

490
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: of wiping around looking for that antler, expecting it to

491
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: be stuck in the dirt. It's probably still there today

492
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: if it hasn't right it away. And I hear car

493
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: doors slam, and I walk down and look, and there's

494
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: a couple of people pulled up to this running track,

495
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: which is just one hundred yards from me at the time.

496
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: So I get that buck he's right on the right

497
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: on the high line edge, and drag him deeper in

498
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: the brush and just sit down there. I'm thinking my

499
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: truck's blocking most poor to John sitting there with the

500
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: keys in it. You know this isn't going to turn out. Well, Well,

501
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: these people get out, get on the track, and don't

502
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 1: They're not there for five minutes, it seems like two hours.

503
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: But now it's getting pretty dark, so they get in

504
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: their cars and leave. I'm sitting there contemplating, do I

505
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: take this deer out now? If I leave it, will

506
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: it be found before daylight or somebody see it or

507
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: kyots get it? You know. I'm a nervous track. I

508
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: go back down walk out to, you know, try to

509
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: like if somebody over there I just left or whatever.

510
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: Nobody around. I reparked my truck in a parking spot

511
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: and think what I'll do is I'll drag that deer

512
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: back where I went in the woods, which isn't that fart,

513
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: but it's a big old here, guts still in it.

514
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: I didn't want to get it there because I did

515
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: not want to leave any evidence, you know, So I

516
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: drag it back down to where my truck was. Nobody

517
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: ever came to the running track. I back it up

518
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: as close as I can, right beside those port of

519
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: potties to try to help hide me in it and all.

520
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: And I get that deer loaded in the back of

521
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: that truck with its guts in it, which was unreal.

522
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: I get it in that truck, get everything closed up,

523
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: and I start getting kind of a feeling of peace,

524
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna pull this off. When I pull out

525
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: onto Army to turn back to leave Fort Leonard Wood,

526
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: I see a car coming. I don't think anything about it.

527
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: And as I'm easing up Army, it was an MP

528
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: and you know, I mean trembling, shaking, Oh my gosh,

529
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: I've they followed me down Nebraska all the way to

530
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: Missouri Boulevard, right towards the main gate. And I mean

531
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: I went by many places that I would expected the

532
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: MP to turn around to go back to patrol, and

533
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: he is right behind me, I mean right on me,

534
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: follows me right out the north gate. By now I

535
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: think I'm thinking, what am I going to say? They're

536
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: going to pull me over? You know, I'm just caught.

537
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: And as I go by a gas station, they're all

538
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: Star Gas. That people pulls into that gas station. That

539
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: guy was going to get a pack of cigarettes or

540
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: a soda or something, I'm sure. And I go on

541
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: up to almost I forty four. There's there's a car

542
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: wash parking lot there and I pull in and get

543
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: out and look at the truck and there is blood

544
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: all over that tailgate, and the thought of that was

545
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: where I made the mistakes that I'm gonna make to

546
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 1: get caught, the mistake I made shooting the deer. But

547
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: then it gets in my head so bad. All I

548
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: can think about is that blood and that mp FA

549
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: on me. So I drive home and uh, all the

550
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: way home, I'm thinking. What I'm gonna do is I'm

551
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: gonna get up early in the morning. There's there's no

552
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: more physical checking in, you know, it's all tailcheck. I

553
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: can sign into my hunting area by a computer. I've

554
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: got tree stands there. I'm gonna take him out there,

555
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: drag him out in front of that stand, gut him,

556
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: break him all loose, give it about an hour, tail

557
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: check him, and go to the house. Like I said, Clay,

558
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: I've still not gotten excited with this deer. You know,

559
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: the biggest deer I've ever killed my life. I'll probably

560
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: never kill or even see a deer that size. I

561
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: didn't kill right, which was weighing on me pretty heavy.

562
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: There are a lot of options in the English language

563
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: that could be used to describe what Donnie had done.

564
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: I think the one he used is interesting. I didn't

565
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: kill it right, And here begins the classic cascade of

566
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: one live being fixed by mora lies like a fox

567
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: and a snare. It's a trap as old as mankind.

568
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: So as I'm thinking about this, I get thinking about

569
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: that MP and that blood on that tailgate, and will

570
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: they be looking for this truck if I drive this

571
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: truck through you know, everything's surveillance there. If I drive

572
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: this truck through the man gate, will they say, we

573
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: need you to come over here check me out and

574
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: see why there was blood all over my truck. So

575
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: I set up all night thinking about this, and I

576
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: advised a plan that I would just just say that

577
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: I killed it at my house. So the next morning,

578
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: at daylight, I go up behind my house and in

579
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: a place I was allowed to hunt, taking back to

580
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: one of my old tree stands, just fields in a

581
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: road all the way to it, and I unload that deer,

582
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: drag him down in the woods and ways gut him,

583
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: go back and get my truck. I get thinking that

584
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: I've got to have proof that I was here, So

585
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: I drive all the way to the next little town

586
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: and get gas on a debit cards save my receipt.

587
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: You know, I was getting pretty deep by now. Talk

588
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: to a few people so I could say that the

589
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: people had seen me there, you know, and that's dragging

590
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: people into something that they don't even need to, you know,

591
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: go back out. I loaded the deer, and a cousin

592
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: of mine, a very close cousin mine, messaged me in

593
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: and asked if I was hunting and I said yeah.

594
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: He said you kill anything, and I said yeah, I've

595
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: killed a giant and he said, send me a picture.

596
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: So I see him photo of it. Well, he's proud

597
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: of me, you know, kill something like that, you know,

598
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: and it's kind of his old stomping grounds where this

599
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: is at. And he was super proud of me. So

600
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: he chilled that picture. Two or three people. Well, Fort

601
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: Woods having big buck contest this time, which I ran,

602
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: so he got gets to hold me. Went to if

603
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn this deer in the big buck other

604
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: night and I didn't want to do that and I said, no,

605
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that with and he said

606
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: I want to see that deer. And I said, we'll

607
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: come by the house and he had something going on.

608
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: He said, bring it over here. I want to look

609
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: at that deer. And I said, I don't want to

610
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: much people messing around it, you know. The whole time.

611
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: I'm worried about getting caught at something, and he's proud

612
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: of me. I dry, I said, well, I'll be over

613
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: a little bit. I don't want to much. He said,

614
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, just bring it over and said

615
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: he's an engineer on for larn Would. And when I

616
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: pulled up to where he told me to meet hum Att,

617
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: sure two hundred people are waiting to see this deer

618
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: and they were snapping photos of that thing. I mean

619
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: it was it was. I knew right then that there's

620
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: no way I'm going to keep this deer head. Knowing

621
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: that it was a county record without a.

622
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: Doubt, Donnie's world was about to spend out of control,

623
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: and the leading edge of the whirlwind was lies. And

624
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: I want to take an official time out for a

625
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 2: minute and ask you, if you had done this, would

626
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: you be willing to share with the national podcaster the

627
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: minute details of one of the biggest mistakes of your life.

628
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: This event is now so long in the past that

629
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: he did not have to dredge it up. He's weathered

630
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: the storm of personal criticism and character attacks over the

631
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: last fourteen years. I'm still myself wondering why He's willing

632
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: to be so open with me. I'm not sure why,

633
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: but I'm grateful for his openness. I think it's pretty rare.

634
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm living through this, though I personally

635
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: don't have to pay the consequences. Stories are powerful. Okay,

636
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: so time out is over. We're back in the game,

637
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: and we've left Donnie in the parking lot of a

638
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,760
Speaker 2: gas station with an unbelievable amount of people who've shown

639
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: up after he shared a picture with just one person.

640
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: And I've also noticed that Casey's gas stations are on

641
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: every corner of Central Missouri. I'm sure it's the cases

642
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: that they're out back to Donnie.

643
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: While that's going on, some of the people that I

644
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: work with call me asking about this deer that I've killed.

645
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: These people I ain't talked to. I didn't realize how

646
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,959
Speaker 1: fast that news would travel, but it was unbelievable asked

647
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: me to bring the deer by. They wanted to look

648
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: at it. So so I went over there and there's

649
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: just two or three of the people working there, and

650
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: I pulled around, kind of hit my truck around back,

651
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: and they were out there looking at it, and a

652
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: military guy that works in the hospital, which you can

653
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: almost see the junction down there from the hospital, comes

654
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: walking around the building and points and he said, I

655
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: got pictures of that, dear, and he shows me if

656
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: this boy, it looks just like it, don't it? And

657
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: he said, oh, it's it. So I loaded up go home.

658
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: How did you feel when he said that? I knew,

659
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: I really knew when that deer hit the ground how

660
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: it was going to turn out. I didn't know it

661
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,959
Speaker 1: was going to have a snowball effect that it did.

662
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: But so here's oh, at least three hundred people out

663
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: of the gate that I've liked to. I can't tell

664
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: anybody what really happened. You know how that works. And

665
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: it's horrible to kill a two hundred inch deer, and

666
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: it was a nightmare from the beginning.

667
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 2: Donnie just said two things worth noting. I didn't know

668
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 2: it was going to have the snowball effect that it did.

669
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 2: Donnie's talking about what would happen after he got caught,

670
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: but also foreshadowing the ripples of crushing incidents that would

671
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: follow him in the coming decade. Stuff unrelated to wildlife

672
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: crime and punishment. You know, there's a very American ideology

673
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 2: that says, good things happen to good people, and bad

674
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: things happen to bad people. You get what you deserve.

675
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: Later we'll explore this doctrine and why we all better

676
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: pray that it's not true. The second thing he said

677
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: was that it was a nightmare from the beginning, but

678
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: it just keeps getting worse.

679
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: Here's Donnie well that Ford drug. I put gas in it.

680
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: When I come back home from Fort Wood at eleven thirty,

681
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: I finally want to I'd burned a half tank gas.

682
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: Sitting out they run with the headlights on, people looking

683
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: at the deer, which is just sickening, and uh, not

684
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: telling anybody the truth. My dad and my wife knew

685
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: what was going on. Really, So you told your dad

686
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: and your wife? Yeah, what did they say? Oh? They

687
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: What could they say then? You know?

688
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 2: I mean, were they upset with you?

689
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: They were?

690
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: They were they wanted you to Were they worried about

691
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: you getting in trouble? What do you think was going on?

692
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 2: They probably they had the same mindset that I did.

693
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 2: I believe like we just got to hide this. Well,

694
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 2: no that that there was no hide in it by then.

695
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: I think they knew from the beginning that this wouldn't work.

696
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: What it was? Your dad mad at you? Yeah, he

697
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: was upset. He My dad is a huge supporter of mine,

698
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: so is my wife, and I think both of them

699
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: believe that I'd hunt that deer down and kill it.

700
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: I think they both had faith that I could kill

701
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: that deer, right. You know. My dad looked at it,

702
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: you know, but it wasn't You told him, Dad, I

703
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: killed this deer illegally. Yeah. What do he do?

704
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: Did?

705
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean? Literally? What did he do? Did he shake

706
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: his head? Did he he? He just said, boy, that's

707
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: a that's a big old deer to not kill, right.

708
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: And like I said, he didn't. He didn't jump all

709
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: over me. Of course, I'm you know, I'm of adult age.

710
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: That's a big old deer not to kill, right, His

711
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: dad said. We haven't talked about him yet, but Donnie's

712
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 2: dad is an influential player. I met him and shook

713
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: his hand and looked him in the eyes. He was

714
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 2: wearing a pair of overalls. He's a humble, earnest man

715
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 2: with a gray beard like a lion's mane. He's retired

716
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: now after a noble career in the autobody repair industry.

717
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: Donnie revealed to me that he was skeptical of me

718
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: wanting to hell the world about his son's story, and

719
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 2: I get it. He felt his son had already paid

720
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: enough for his sins. We'll get into it more in

721
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: episode two. Yep, this is gonna be a two part series.

722
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 2: But after the death of Donnie's wife, Angela, his dad

723
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: stepped up to help raise Donnie and Angela's two boys.

724
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: Donnie and his father are extremely close. It's a long story,

725
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: but now I have a hard question for Donnie. My

726
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: wife wasn't as frustrated at me as I'm sure that

727
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: he was. But I know my dad and my dad

728
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: thought I could kill it deer. Would your dad have

729
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: I mean, how would break in the law have been

730
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 2: viewed inside of your family's world.

731
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: We weren't big lawbreakers? Really, he didn't. I wasn't a poacher.

732
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: A hunted, right, That's why all my prize possession Deer

733
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty and forty engineer, I could.

734
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: Really you can you you can honestly say you didn't.

735
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying I think everybody's broken the law before.

736
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: I mean, if you've hunted as much as I know

737
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 2: you've hunted, and as much as I've hunted people have

738
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: I broke the law before, But I have dedicated my

739
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: self for most of my life to not breaking the law. Really,

740
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: you didn't go and kill deer illegally before this?

741
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: No, I never killed I've never killed an extra turkey.

742
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: I just I can't think of and I'm sure I have,

743
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: But like killing deer off the road and stuff, he

744
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: just wasn't a hunted hard. When you spend all your

745
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: time in a tree stand, you're not driving the roads.

746
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: And I know I've broken the law, I'm sure, but

747
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: it wasn't something we were used to. Wasn't like I

748
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: was just wearing the roads out shooting deer off the roads. Yeah,

749
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: never with olid and stuff. Yeah.

750
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: I don't have a long history with Donnie to know

751
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: fully if he's telling me the truth. But as I

752
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: look into his eyes and have witnessed the openness of

753
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: which he's already spoken, I believe him. I was able

754
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 2: to look up his criminal record with the Missouri Department

755
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: of Conservation, and they've recorded what some would consider, including me,

756
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: a few minor violations, like a ticket for not wearing

757
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 2: hunter's orange during firearm season. I've done that, but not

758
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 2: being caught and a few other things. So by the

759
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: definition of the law, at this point in our story,

760
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,919
Speaker 2: he's not a convicted poacher, but he's about to get

761
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: smacked hard, or is he? And by now you're starting

762
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 2: to draw your own conclusions about who Donnie is, because

763
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: that's really what we're all trying to do.

764
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: Right.

765
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: We already know that he's guilty, but what we're really

766
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: trying to answer, at the most simple level is is

767
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: this a good person? And from that answer we'll make

768
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: our judgments about him. We'll decide if we can forgive him.

769
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: But is that even fair? Can a man's entire life

770
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: be judged by one isolated incident? I think most of

771
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: us like the idea of saying no to that, but

772
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: in reality, we judge people like that all the time,

773
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: or at least I do. The law delivers a much

774
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 2: needed standard in society and a prescription of justice, But

775
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: the law is imperfect, and a human, a judge, a jury,

776
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: an officer has to decide how justice is delivered. It's

777
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: really not straightforward at all, and from this position, all

778
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: manner of injustice is delivered. It works out good for

779
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: some and bad for others. This injustice is a major

780
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: problem on planet Earth and has been for a long

781
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: long time. And like I said in the beginning, we're

782
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: going to discuss how is a society we demand justice,

783
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: extend mercy, and accept or reject apologies. We're constantly subject

784
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 2: to politicians, athletes, movie stars, and religious leaders who've messed

785
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: up and are asking for our forgiveness. Some we give

786
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: it to and others we withhold it. I think we

787
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 2: can learn a lot about ourselves by who we extend

788
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 2: mercy too. But good gravy, I'm getting way way ahead

789
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: of myself. Donnie still got a giant deer in the

790
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 2: back of his truck. Let's get back in the game.

791
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: So I cleaned the deer. We're leaving in five days

792
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 1: or so to Wyoming for a mule deer in aneloe punt.

793
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: And I haven't heard anything about this deer for three

794
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: or four days. You think you've gotten away with us

795
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: in a way, in a way, So I took the

796
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: deer to a taxidermists and he said, don't go anywhere.

797
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm o cape that I don't want them antlers here.

798
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: And to get back there was I don't know how

799
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: many all my family come to see it, you know,

800
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: and that's probably the worst part. I had a in

801
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: church on the Sunday morning. The preacher asked me about it.

802
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: That was probably the hardest one. You know, it's rough,

803
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not pitiful me at all. I

804
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: mean I killed it there and uh went to to

805
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: a hunt in Wyoming for about a week. So on

806
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: the way back, a guy calls me, calls my cousin

807
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: that's with me. He goes, hey, I want to let

808
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: you know they're they're planning on coming to getting you

809
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: soon as you get back. They've been investigating this deer.

810
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: So when I get when I get back to work,

811
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: I'm a nervous erect pins and needles all day. The

812
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: whole day goes by, close up shop, go home. Not

813
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: a word, and I thought, well, maybe he heard false

814
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: or teasing me about it or something, because I, like

815
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: I said, there was there was a few people, a

816
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: handful or more that that knew that that where that

817
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: deer came from. So the next day go back to

818
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: work and pulled my jeep up to the front door

819
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: and was locking up the safe and I don't know,

820
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: three or four agents come through and said hey, we

821
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: need you to come with us. And I said, I

822
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: mean what for? He said, you know what for? Anyway,

823
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: they rested me, not forcefully. I knew almost all the

824
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: agents in there, you know, and they knew I wouldn't

825
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: put up a fight or anything. And we went to

826
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: building fifty two to eighty two, which was the game

827
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: Warden's game Warden station. When we got there, there was

828
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: I believe three fort Leonardwood agents, a couple of Pulaski

829
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: County agents, a Shannon County agent, at least five or six,

830
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: and one of them was it was a polygraph guy. Anyway,

831
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: they opened up their computer and there's that picture that

832
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: guy had showed me, and he shows me like five

833
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: or six of them. They have you hooked to a

834
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: polygraph now. Yet they never hooked me up, just we

835
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: were just having conversation. They also had a guy that

836
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: had worked for the crimes unit that could tell time

837
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: of death on people, and they had brought him into

838
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: but they were there to get me understandably anyway, So

839
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: I said, I told him I killed it where I

840
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: said I killed And we went on for hours.

841
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 2: At this point, you're still lying, yeah, absolutely, I mean

842
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 2: you're just like a like a animal trapped in a corner.

843
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: You got no choice, That's what That's what you're thinking

844
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: felt like in your mind.

845
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: Well, in my mind, I thought, if they find out

846
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: that I killed it out here in federal insalation, not

847
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: checked into a hunting area, my job maybe jail hunt,

848
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that's possible. Yeah, And I thought,

849
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: there's no way, I mean, I have to stick to

850
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: this now. Did you not have any sense of just

851
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: coming clean at that point, when you were at that

852
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: deepning and you knew they had you that not in

853
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: the beginning, No, No, I mean I wanted to, but

854
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to in any way, shape or for him.

855
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: Finally, after several hours of conversation, though steeped in blood

856
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: and knowing the return trip to honesty will be a

857
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 2: difficult one, Donnie knew that they had him. He had

858
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: to turn back. The officers made him an offer, guaranteed

859
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 2: him he wouldn't lose his job, and told him what

860
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: the punishment would be if he confessed, and he did.

861
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: The twenty six year old confessed to killing the buck

862
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 2: in the restricted hunting area and falsifying where he killed it.

863
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: And I told him the whole story. It was the

864
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: biggest relief I had. But I knew I had five

865
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: hundred people I was gonna have to tell this too

866
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: as well, you know, apologize, and a couple of them

867
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: that had figured out what was going on while I

868
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: was in Wyoming were pretty aggravated at me. You know,

869
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: people that wouldn't have lied to me about it. I

870
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: don't think then I liked to. I had two cousins

871
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: on my dad's side after this it all went down,

872
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: and I'd lighted them too. They spent multiple nights while

873
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: I was in Wyoming with a camera driving up and

874
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: down that road trying to get a picture of that

875
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: deer to prove it was alive. You know, I had

876
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: people really going to bat for me over this, and

877
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: like I said, I think if I'd have been a poacher,

878
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: them guys wouldn't have been doing that. If I'd been

879
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: somebody they knew that that was you know, spot liar

880
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: and stuff that they would say, well, you probably didiculate her.

881
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: But but I lost a lot of respect from some people.

882
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: You know, they were pretty aggravated at me, and rightfully

883
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: so so when I told them that though Clay I

884
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: hadn't hardly slept since I'd killed that deer. It was

885
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: one of the big leaves. Even though when you told

886
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: the wildlife ofught Y, yeah, it just it was a

887
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: big burden. It was a heavy burden, you know, to

888
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: lie to everybody about it.

889
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:18,240
Speaker 2: The heavy burden of carrying a lie lifted when Donnie confessed. However,

890
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 2: it was just the beginning of a string of events

891
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 2: that would change his life. Now that we've heard the story,

892
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 2: I've got some questions on how is the society we

893
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: handle people who've done wrong, broken the law, or even

894
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: just offended us. I've got a few questions for doctor

895
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 2: Misty Nukem, who's got a PhD in political science and

896
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: a master's in human development. I think she's pretty sharp,

897
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: and as many of you know, this is my wife,

898
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: and as usual, she's got some good insight. Here's Misty.

899
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 2: I'm interested in, how is a society we decide how

900
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,439
Speaker 2: we handle people that break the law, and not even

901
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: just the written law, but people that break some moral law.

902
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: How do we decide who we ostracize, who we forgive?

903
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: What goes into that?

904
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 3: Well, I think that one of the things that goes

905
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: into that is thinking about forgiveness and thinking about apologies.

906
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 3: A lot of times forgiveness is given when an apology

907
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 3: is made, and I think inside of social science, a

908
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 3: lot of times when you look at things that are

909
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 3: kind of more common to us, a lot of times

910
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 3: you're surprised by what you find out. The intuitive answer

911
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 3: is not the thing you find. But with an apology,

912
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 3: it's kind of different. It is actually exactly what you

913
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 3: would expect people. If I were to ask you, like,

914
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: what makes an apology good, you would probably say the

915
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: same thing that social science has realized. A good apology

916
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 3: is when someone takes responsibility and expresses sympathy or remorse

917
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 3: for the impact that that has had on others. That's

918
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 3: like considered a good apology. And if you think back,

919
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 3: the people that you probably find it easiest to forgive

920
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 3: would be people who.

921
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 2: Said they personal responsibility.

922
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: Acknowledge that it hurt you. Sometimes, it's interesting to me

923
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: inside of forgiveness. It's one of those things that has

924
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 3: a really powerful impact on the person extending forgiveness and

925
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 3: also on the person that's requesting forgiveness. It almost takes

926
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 3: you by surprise when someone is genuinely humble and exercises

927
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 3: humility and says, hey, what I did was wrong.

928
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: How does it work in a situation where like someone

929
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: in the public arena that we don't know, we don't

930
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 2: have a personal relationship with, and they may not necessarily

931
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 2: have a podium to stand on and say I would

932
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 2: like to make a formal apology to the world. As

933
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 2: in the case I'm dealing with here is I have

934
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: a man who is committed an egregious wildlife crime and

935
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 2: he has to go back into his community. What are

936
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 2: the people looking for?

937
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 3: I think they're looking for the same thing. Did he

938
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 3: take personal responsibility? Does he exercise or express remorse?

939
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: Well?

940
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: Would other options?

941
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 3: And do you have some that he won't do it again?

942
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 2: Well, that's big.

943
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 3: I think it's really big is that the regret is

944
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 3: significant enough and he recognizes it's wrong enough that he

945
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 3: won't do it again. It makes you think higher of

946
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 3: their moral character.

947
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 2: As I analyze my own self, which that's what I'm

948
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 2: doing inside the situation, I'm analyzing not what I've been

949
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: taught or what I think I think, but actually, what

950
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: is it about a situation that makes me think this

951
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: is a good guy and he's really sorry, or they

952
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 2: should lock that guy up. I think what I really

953
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: want to know is do I think this guy would

954
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: do it again? Do I think he's lying to me?

955
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: Do I think he is not taking personal responsibility?

956
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 3: Because that's what lying is, is not taking personal responsibility.

957
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 2: Right, or saying I did it and it was wrong, but.

958
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: That's why you said.

959
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 3: One of the alternatives, And I think one of the

960
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: alternatives is to justify or excuse it. I think it's

961
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 3: really easy to say, here's why did it wrong and

962
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 3: give an explanation. But what it sounds like to the

963
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 3: receiver is justification. It sounds like I'm saying I did wrong,

964
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 3: but here's why, and it's kind of justified. And I'm

965
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: not super sorry.

966
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: About it, because we don't like that at all.

967
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 3: No, we don't like that at all. And if you

968
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 3: look at like public relations and public communication, when people

969
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 3: make apologies like that, people are very slow to forgive.

970
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 2: Social science can be complicated, but it sounds like an

971
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 2: apology is straightforward and intuitive. But why do so many

972
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: people struggle with it? Why do people struggle with admitting fault.

973
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 2: I give Donnie a lot of credit for owning up

974
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 2: to what he did and taking personal responsibility. I was

975
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 2: surprised with how upfront and honesty was. But more than

976
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: his words, it was his tone. I didn't feel like

977
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: he was trying to prove anything to me. He didn't

978
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 2: seem bitter, but he did tell me that the first

979
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: few years after it happened, things were very different, but

980
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: time has taken out a lot of wrinkles and put

981
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 2: it into perspective. For him, defensiveness justification lying a refusal

982
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: to admit guilt as a form of control. An apology

983
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: is a release of that control. I think this is

984
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 2: helpful for me to understand, even for everyday life, the

985
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 2: art of authentically apologizing is one of the most powerful

986
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 2: tools a human can have. We could say that again,

987
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 2: so the folks in the back could hear the art

988
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,919
Speaker 2: of authentically apologizing as one of the most powerful tools

989
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 2: a human could have. That's some bear gree stuff right there.

990
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 2: Turns out I need to apologize quite a bit. It's

991
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: usually for hoots, shame and somebody, or discrediting their claim

992
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 2: for seeing some kind of wildlife that doesn't exist where

993
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:49,879
Speaker 2: they live, or belittling Brent's beloved tricolor coonhound. Occasionally it's

994
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: for more serious things. Here's doctor Nukeomb on authenticity.

995
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 3: This is my misty's personal opinion. I think we're pretty

996
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 3: good at assessing the authenticity of fault because humility is

997
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:05,919
Speaker 3: something that I think is very difficult to face.

998
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: It's almost like a humility is almost like a pheromone

999
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: that is released that is not seen in facial express

1000
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: or you can see through any external thing. You can

1001
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 2: see through words that are said. Like two people could

1002
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 2: stand and read the same apology and one mean it

1003
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: and onenot they have the same grin on their face.

1004
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 2: They could have the same humble remorse on their face,

1005
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 2: but we're like, he was genuine. And I think it

1006
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 2: goes right back to our humanness, Like we are more

1007
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 2: than just a compilation of biological functions. We have a spirit,

1008
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 2: we have a soul. We're connected to something bigger than

1009
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 2: this biological thing we live inside of. That's what makes

1010
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 2: us human. And we sense really the deep internal mechanisms

1011
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: of a person's heart when they say they're sorry. Yeah.

1012
00:54:57,719 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 3: And I think even like you're describing it as a permal,

1013
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 3: I can't back that up with research, but I know

1014
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 3: it was just an analogy that I know even if

1015
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 3: you're watching on TV and someone comes out and apologizes.

1016
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 3: There's this thing in us that's like, hmm, I don't know,

1017
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 3: I don't believe it.

1018
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: And everybody has a response immediately immediately. I think the

1019
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 2: best way to think about this is what would you

1020
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: expect from someone who had personally done you wrong? And

1021
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: you pretty much expect that from everybody at every level. Yeah,

1022
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: if your brother deeply offended you, how could he make

1023
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 2: it right? Like he might actually have to fix what

1024
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 2: he did, repair the car that he backed into. He

1025
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 2: would also have to genuinely apologize I'm very sorry for

1026
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 2: the inconvenience, and not blame the dog that ran out

1027
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: behind him and say it was my fault.

1028
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: Right.

1029
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: Ninety nine percent of people would be appeased by that. Yeah,

1030
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 2: I mean kind of expect that at all levels, Like

1031
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 2: a politician, if you're a governor does something wrong, if

1032
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 2: you're president, if your boss at work, you kind of

1033
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 2: expect the same thing.

1034
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's always a little bit of tension until

1035
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 3: you get it. I think an apology is so simple,

1036
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 3: but it really has such a powerful healing impact.

1037
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 2: This was an interesting story to put together. I realized

1038
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 2: that I've not told the whole story. There are many

1039
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: other avenues we could have explored, but mainly I'm grateful

1040
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 2: to Donnie for opening up to us. As I left

1041
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 2: Donnie's house after the interview, his champion rabbit beagles were

1042
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 2: barking in the background. His father walked around in front

1043
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 2: of the garage to arrange the details of who would

1044
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 2: pick up Donnie's son from school, but Donnie had to

1045
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 2: run back inside to get some sports gear for his

1046
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 2: son's ball practice, and I stood alone with his father

1047
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: for a few minutes. I smiled and shook his hand

1048
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: again before I left, knowing that that he didn't fully

1049
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: understand or maybe even trust, why I was there. I

1050
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 2: told the old man that I wouldn't purposely do anything

1051
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 2: that would hurt Donnie, and that I respected his son's

1052
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 2: courage and openness to look this kind of thing in

1053
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 2: the face and tell this story when he could have

1054
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: just let it lie. But mostly I respected Donnie for

1055
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 2: being a different man than he was fourteen years ago,

1056
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: and I think that would be hard to dispute. A

1057
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 2: phrase used in our context might be is he a

1058
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: reformed poacher? A question meaning has he changed his ways?

1059
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 2: And at this point I do not have twenty years

1060
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: of personal history with the man to tell you if

1061
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 2: that's fully true, if he's fully reformed. I wish I

1062
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 2: could proclaim that, but that seems a bit irresponsible. But

1063
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the best question. I mean, what

1064
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: does it even mean to be reformed? That a fellow

1065
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: promises to never make a mistake again. Only Donnie knows

1066
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 2: if he's really changed and how much. But I'll tell

1067
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: you that I do believe he's changed, and I do

1068
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: have decades of history with myself, and I can't proclaim

1069
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 2: that I'm fully reformed, though I strive every day. Donnie

1070
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 2: telling his story wasn't exactly an apology, but it was

1071
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 2: a display of humility taking personal responsibility, and I'm proud

1072
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: to now call Donnie Baker a friend. I'd hunt with

1073
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: him any day. About midway in this story, I said,

1074
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: we better hope that we don't get what we deserve.

1075
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 2: It's possible for a statement like that to strike a

1076
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 2: person as odd, because it would have struck me as

1077
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: odd at one time in my life. But I've come

1078
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: to learn that what I perceive as my own valor,

1079
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 2: or the perception of a decent life, is but filthy rags.

1080
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 2: I sure hope I'm not coach by my worst day.

1081
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: On the next episode, we'll learn about Donnie's conviction and punishment,

1082
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 2: and the severity of it might surprise you, and things

1083
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 2: will get very personal as he tells about the cascade

1084
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 2: of incidents in his life in the following decade. I

1085
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease. Happy

1086
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,439
Speaker 2: New Year to everyone, and as we start this new year,

1087
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 2: I hope you'll follow along Brent and I on our

1088
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 2: journey through rural America. These stories are meaningful to us

1089
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 2: and I just can't thank you enough. Please leave us

1090
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 2: a review on iTunes and share our podcast with a

1091
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 2: friend this week, and please be sure to check out

1092
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 2: our new audio original on Audible. It's available now. It's

1093
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: called Meat Eater's American History, The Long Hunters seventeen sixty

1094
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 2: one to seventeen seventy five. I hope you all have

1095
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:05,919
Speaker 2: a great week.