Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and I heart
Speaker 1: radio podcast. Welcome to the most dramatic podcast ever. I
Speaker 1: am Chris Harrison coming to you with a breaking news
Speaker 1: edition of the most dramatic podcast ever. We dropped a
Speaker 1: podcast earlier on this Thursday about Mike Flie, the creator
Speaker 1: of The Bachelor, leaving the franchise. They announced it early
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning, the night after the franchise finale, and it
Speaker 1: was kind of a nice departure that he was just
Speaker 1: stepping away. Laura and I in our podcast mentioned that
Speaker 1: there just seemed to be more to this story. And
Speaker 1: I also knew, and I talked about this, that I
Speaker 1: knew of several journalists that were working on stories. Well,
Speaker 1: I thought the other shoe would drop. I just didn't
Speaker 1: know it would happen this quickly. So we are coming
Speaker 1: to you again late Thursday night. It's now about ten
Speaker 1: o'clock Austin time, Central time. Three articles have now dropped
Speaker 1: about this situation, one from Variety, one from Deadline that
Speaker 1: goes kind of deep into an ABC overall deal, and
Speaker 1: then a very interesting bombshell article written by Matt Bellany,
Speaker 1: a journalist who has an industry newsletter called the Puck
Speaker 1: and he is also the host of an industry podcast
Speaker 1: called The Town. I track Matt down. He's nice enough
Speaker 1: to join me live tonight to talk about all of this. Matt,
Speaker 1: what have you discovered? So, Mike Flice, the creator of
Speaker 1: The Bachelor, someone you must know, Yes, very well, my
Speaker 1: boss for twenty years. Yes, he announced this past week
Speaker 1: that he was leaving the show after twenty one years.
Speaker 1: And it was a very flowery statement, filled with inspirational
Speaker 1: language about how everyone helped him and you know, he's
Speaker 1: very excited about the future and it's the right time
Speaker 1: to step down. So I learned this week that that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case. You came out in this article and
Speaker 1: the headline reads, The Bachelor loses its cold black heart.
Speaker 1: Your first sentence, A round of applause on the Warner
Speaker 1: Brothers lot is probably in order, for she's the Warner
Speaker 1: Brothers attorney who investigated this. What made you feel so
Speaker 1: comfortable coming out firing in this article? Well, Slice is
Speaker 1: one of those notorious figures. And it's weird talking to
Speaker 1: you about this because I know you're not allowed to
Speaker 1: talk about it, but sort of I know you know,
Speaker 1: and you can't say this stuff I can, because obviously
Speaker 1: I'm not involved with the show in any way. But
Speaker 1: he was a pretty notorious figure in the reality TV community,
Speaker 1: known as just kind of being a jerk and vindictive
Speaker 1: and you know, going after people he perceived to be
Speaker 1: his end means. And he had this thing where he
Speaker 1: did not believe that the Bachelor franchise should be racially diverse,
Speaker 1: and his arguments, according to people that I've talked to,
Speaker 1: stem from the fact that the audience he didn't believe
Speaker 1: would like it, and he was forced to make changes
Speaker 1: over the years. But many people who worked on The
Speaker 1: Bachelor felt that he was not the right person to
Speaker 1: be there, and there were complaints that were made about him,
Speaker 1: and that culminated with this Warner Brothers investigation that I
Speaker 1: wrote about this week. And it looks like you know,
Speaker 1: in reading through your article, and by the way, there's
Speaker 1: also now three three articles have dropped. There's the Variety article,
Speaker 1: a Deadline article has dropped about an ABC deal. You
Speaker 1: and I are going to get to that here in
Speaker 1: just a little bit. And of course your article that
Speaker 1: is in um on Puck and I'm sure we'll be
Speaker 1: talking about it on your podcast The Town. You know.
Speaker 1: One thing I can say is it was interesting when
Speaker 1: I even when I was on the show, and then
Speaker 1: afterwards when I would go into meetings, pitch meetings, what
Speaker 1: have you, people would always stop and say, okay, but
Speaker 1: first you got to tell us stories. You gotta tell
Speaker 1: us what was it really like? There really was? And
Speaker 1: I take it this is what I want to hear
Speaker 1: from you, because you are known industry wide. What was
Speaker 1: the feeling? What do you what was the idea of
Speaker 1: Mike Flice out there? He was this dark genius that
Speaker 1: people believed had an idea originally for a show that
Speaker 1: cut through. There were a million dating shows out there,
Speaker 1: and this one became the huge franchise. Why is that so?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you would argue and had a
Speaker 1: great host that was mostly it. Timing is timing is everything.
Speaker 1: It was lightning in a bottle. I think it hit
Speaker 1: the right chord at the right time, and it was
Speaker 1: produced very well, very well produced, and it appeared during
Speaker 1: that there was this cauldron of creativity in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: nine to two thousand and two where most of the
Speaker 1: big reality franchises that still power the industry today. We're
Speaker 1: talking millionaire Survivor, Big Brother, American Idol, The Bachelor. Those
Speaker 1: shows all debuted in that three year period between ninety
Speaker 1: nine and two thousand and two, and it was right
Speaker 1: when people were accepting of this format. And here comes
Speaker 1: this very well produced dating show that has a mix
Speaker 1: of fantasy and this darker, kind of machiavellian twist on
Speaker 1: it where the women are all competing for the affection
Speaker 1: of a man, and it struck a chord and he
Speaker 1: was definitely part of that. From everything that I have,
Speaker 1: everyone I've talked to said, this is not a guy
Speaker 1: who got lucky and attached himself to something that was
Speaker 1: going to be a hit. Regardless, he absolutely contributed to
Speaker 1: the success, especially in the early years of the show.
Speaker 1: But other than Bachelor and Bachelor related shows, he never
Speaker 1: created another show that was a hit, and he became
Speaker 1: a presence on the show that was I don't want
Speaker 1: to use the word toxic. I think that gets thrown
Speaker 1: around a lot, but people that work on the show
Speaker 1: did not consider him a positive influence. You know, you
Speaker 1: mentioned in the article you called his farewell statement ridiculous,
Speaker 1: and part of that statement really seemed to try to
Speaker 1: distance Mike from the show. And they actually used the
Speaker 1: term ten years that he hadn't really been a part
Speaker 1: of those show for the last decade. You took issue
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, he's still around, he's you know, it's
Speaker 1: a sporadic appearance. From everything that I have heard, he
Speaker 1: was still involved. And why were they trying to distance
Speaker 1: in that statement? Why were they trying in your mind
Speaker 1: as a lawyer, putting on your lawyer hat because I
Speaker 1: know you are, Why try to distance him from the
Speaker 1: franchise like that. Well, there's there's controversies that have played
Speaker 1: out over the past decade. I mean, namely the show.
Speaker 1: There was a discrimination complaint filed against the show, claiming
Speaker 1: that it systematically excluded black people. And there were the
Speaker 1: personal scandals that he had, I mean, he was he
Speaker 1: was accused of beating his pregnant wife, which he has denied.
Speaker 1: He got into this fight with his neighbor in Malibu
Speaker 1: where he allegedly was playing loud barking noises in the
Speaker 1: middle of the night, and you know, got into the
Speaker 1: controversy there. There was everything that happened that led to
Speaker 1: your exit from the show, and the controversy surrounding the
Speaker 1: Matt James season of the Bachelor. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff that this show has endured. I mean, to
Speaker 1: its credit, it still has an audience, although the audience
Speaker 1: has gone down significantly over the past few years, but
Speaker 1: it's still endures and I think ABC and Warner Brothers
Speaker 1: would like it to continue on. Well does it I
Speaker 1: think that's the multi multimillion dollar question. Does it endure? Matt?
Speaker 1: You know much has been made and you mentioned as
Speaker 1: much in your article about the ratings. Obviously they've been
Speaker 1: declining show after show, season after season, and you know
Speaker 1: this Monday's finale was the lowest in history. Does this
Speaker 1: show endure? Does this show survive? I think it does
Speaker 1: because as much as the ratings have declined, it's still
Speaker 1: generating an audience larger than other stuff you put in
Speaker 1: that place. It is a franchise that people know, and
Speaker 1: we are not seeing the streaming numbers for the show.
Speaker 1: For all we know, the streaming numbers are large, the
Speaker 1: magical streaming numbers that nobody really ever knows and people
Speaker 1: can talk about. I know, I know, but you gotta
Speaker 1: assume that there is an audience for this show that
Speaker 1: is finding it on streams. There definitely is still an
Speaker 1: audience for this show. There's still an appetite for it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's obviously the social relevance is is diminished incredibly,
Speaker 1: so have the ratings. But as you said, even if
Speaker 1: you're just taking the network ratings, it's still viable. It
Speaker 1: still makes money. They they definitely need this to stay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I could see other franchise elements going away before
Speaker 1: the flagship goes away. You know, maybe they don't need
Speaker 1: Bachelor in Paradise right or hours start getting cut down,
Speaker 1: it moves nights. Yeah, there's a Bachelor at every other year.
Speaker 1: It'll be death by a thousand paper cuts. It's not
Speaker 1: going to be the guillotine, is what you're saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I and I don't you know, or maybe they
Speaker 1: figure out some way to reinvent it. You know. One
Speaker 1: of the criticisms of the show is that it feels
Speaker 1: very familiar. Each year. It's been on for twenty one years,
Speaker 1: You're going to be familiar with it. It's a format
Speaker 1: in these contestants are plugged into a format, and that's
Speaker 1: part of the reason why it endures. You know, what
Speaker 1: you're getting one thing I want to dive into. You
Speaker 1: mentioned it and then the Deadline article really went into this,
Speaker 1: and let's try and explain this in layman's terms so
Speaker 1: everybody can kind of understand the impact of why this
Speaker 1: is important. I'll give everybody the set up because it's
Speaker 1: kind of hard to explain that The Bachelor itself is
Speaker 1: owned by a production company, Mike Flice's production company, Next Entertainment.
Speaker 1: Next Entertainment is kind of owned and operated was owned
Speaker 1: and operated by Warner Brothers, Warner Horizon. That's the studio
Speaker 1: we were on ABC, So that's the network we were on.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of a three headed monster, if you will.
Speaker 1: Somewhere along the way, Mike was offered an overall deal
Speaker 1: at ABC. That's the report, and you and Deadline both
Speaker 1: have said that overall deal is dead. Can you explain
Speaker 1: a little bit more about how someone would go from
Speaker 1: Warner in this situation to ABC? Why is this significant? Well,
Speaker 1: it's significant because presumably if Mike flies is based at
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers, they would want all of his producing services
Speaker 1: and all capacities for anything he does outside of the Bachelor.
Speaker 1: This we don't know the details on what why I mean,
Speaker 1: we don't know the details on what this deal would
Speaker 1: have entailed. Or why Warners would have wanted him to
Speaker 1: go over there, But it seemed like Warners didn't want
Speaker 1: to deal with him anymore. Well, would they have wanted
Speaker 1: him to go over there? Or did he do that
Speaker 1: himself or was somebody Maybe he did it himself, Maybe
Speaker 1: he found I mean, he's very friendly with Rob Mills,
Speaker 1: who is the head of unscripted shows at ABC. Maybe
Speaker 1: there was a relationship there and he said come on,
Speaker 1: come on over. There was a new division that was
Speaker 1: being launched, and he probably may have said, come on
Speaker 1: over and do something for us here. It may have
Speaker 1: been Warners not wanting to deal with him anymore. But
Speaker 1: on the ABC behalf and again, you're you're the lawyer here.
Speaker 1: Doesn't that if you know there are problems, you know
Speaker 1: there are issues on the horizon, doesn't that open you
Speaker 1: up to Well, my understanding is that this was scrapped
Speaker 1: when those issues became apparent gotcha, and that when the
Speaker 1: investigation began, the ABC deal went away. I don't think
Speaker 1: this is played out yet. I think maybe that's the
Speaker 1: next question. Is this over? I don't think it's over.
Speaker 1: I think that there will likely be more coming out
Speaker 1: about some of the onset behavior some You know that
Speaker 1: a number of people on the show have engaged a lawyer,
Speaker 1: the same lawyer that you used when you left the show,
Speaker 1: and they are pursuing potential claims against the show, maybe
Speaker 1: for retaliation. There was a group of executives that were
Speaker 1: put in charge of the show that some people on
Speaker 1: the show have said, you know, maybe we're not as
Speaker 1: experienced as some of the others who have been with
Speaker 1: the show longer and perhaps deserved a shot to run
Speaker 1: the show. A lot of un answered questions at this point. So, Matt,
Speaker 1: one thing that I do know is that the show
Speaker 1: is in production. They're shooting The Bachelorette, the next season
Speaker 1: of The Bacherette right now. And having been a part
Speaker 1: of this franchise for twenty years, I know this is
Speaker 1: weighing on the crew on the cast. Obviously this has
Speaker 1: gotten around. Yeah, you're kind of in the bubble, but
Speaker 1: that doesn't you know, this will permeate the bubble, and
Speaker 1: so all these producers that we're already in turmoil are
Speaker 1: now dealing with this. So it is a lot. And
Speaker 1: speaking of a lot again, I want to say thank
Speaker 1: you because you just dropped this story about an hour ago.
Speaker 1: You jumped on with me. Is there more you're digging
Speaker 1: into and more you're working on? Oh? Absolutely, I'll have
Speaker 1: more up on the puck website, puck dot News, and
Speaker 1: we'll definitely be talking about on The Town podcast, probably
Speaker 1: in the next week or so. But yeah, there's more
Speaker 1: to this story, So the Puck Dot News and of
Speaker 1: course the great podcast The Town, which you cover the
Speaker 1: industry so brilliantly. I often want to jump on and
Speaker 1: argue with you and debate you, but that's why it's
Speaker 1: a good podcast, and that's why you're welcome. Well continued
Speaker 1: success on this story, great job, great article. Investigative reporting.
Speaker 1: Journalism is not dead apparently, and maybe we reconvene next
Speaker 1: week and dive into this a little more when we
Speaker 1: have more information. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you again,
Speaker 1: my thanks to Matt Bellany as this this is a
Speaker 1: very fluid situation and much more is going to continue
Speaker 1: to spill out. This is just the first night. First
Speaker 1: three articles from Variety, Deadline and Matt Bellany, who's been
Speaker 1: so gracious to join us tonight, have written these articles.
Speaker 1: But this is the tip of the iceberg and things
Speaker 1: like this, and I'm sure more will come out. We
Speaker 1: will stay on it. I will keep you up to date.
Speaker 1: And what I'm really interested in too is what is
Speaker 1: this going to do to you? What's it going to
Speaker 1: do to Bachelor Nation, what's to due to the viewers?
Speaker 1: What is your perspective of this, does it matter to you?
Speaker 1: And will it affect the show anymore? We will dive
Speaker 1: into all of this. We will revisit this next week.
Speaker 1: We will have a brand new episode for you Monday.
Speaker 1: Until then, have a great weekend and next time we
Speaker 1: have a lot more to talk about. Thanks for listening.
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Speaker 1: us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.