WEBVTT - Dropping like Fleiss (Part 2) 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.880 This is the most dramatic podcast ever and I heart 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:10.719 radio podcast. Welcome to the most dramatic podcast ever. I 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.800 am Chris Harrison coming to you with a breaking news 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.759 edition of the most dramatic podcast ever. We dropped a 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:24.079 podcast earlier on this Thursday about Mike Flie, the creator 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.280 of The Bachelor, leaving the franchise. They announced it early 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.040 Tuesday morning, the night after the franchise finale, and it 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.960 was kind of a nice departure that he was just 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.160 stepping away. Laura and I in our podcast mentioned that 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.760 there just seemed to be more to this story. And 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.559 I also knew, and I talked about this, that I 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.080 knew of several journalists that were working on stories. Well, 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.200 I thought the other shoe would drop. I just didn't 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.640 know it would happen this quickly. So we are coming 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.600 to you again late Thursday night. It's now about ten 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.440 o'clock Austin time, Central time. Three articles have now dropped 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:08.160 about this situation, one from Variety, one from Deadline that 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.720 goes kind of deep into an ABC overall deal, and 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.600 then a very interesting bombshell article written by Matt Bellany, 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:21.000 a journalist who has an industry newsletter called the Puck 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.839 and he is also the host of an industry podcast 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.280 called The Town. I track Matt down. He's nice enough 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.520 to join me live tonight to talk about all of this. Matt, 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:36.560 what have you discovered? So, Mike Flice, the creator of 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.360 The Bachelor, someone you must know, Yes, very well, my 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:45.039 boss for twenty years. Yes, he announced this past week 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.880 that he was leaving the show after twenty one years. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:53.920 And it was a very flowery statement, filled with inspirational 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.800 language about how everyone helped him and you know, he's 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.560 very excited about the future and it's the right time 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.080 to step down. So I learned this week that that 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.920 wasn't the case. You came out in this article and 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.720 the headline reads, The Bachelor loses its cold black heart. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.200 Your first sentence, A round of applause on the Warner 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.280 Brothers lot is probably in order, for she's the Warner 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.800 Brothers attorney who investigated this. What made you feel so 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:30.200 comfortable coming out firing in this article? Well, Slice is 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.240 one of those notorious figures. And it's weird talking to 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.840 you about this because I know you're not allowed to 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.600 talk about it, but sort of I know you know, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:43.760 and you can't say this stuff I can, because obviously 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.120 I'm not involved with the show in any way. But 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:51.560 he was a pretty notorious figure in the reality TV community, 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.280 known as just kind of being a jerk and vindictive 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.560 and you know, going after people he perceived to be 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.359 his end means. And he had this thing where he 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:09.400 did not believe that the Bachelor franchise should be racially diverse, 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.640 and his arguments, according to people that I've talked to, 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.880 stem from the fact that the audience he didn't believe 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.480 would like it, and he was forced to make changes 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.280 over the years. But many people who worked on The 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.680 Bachelor felt that he was not the right person to 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:32.680 be there, and there were complaints that were made about him, 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.520 and that culminated with this Warner Brothers investigation that I 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.280 wrote about this week. And it looks like you know, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.560 in reading through your article, and by the way, there's 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.760 also now three three articles have dropped. There's the Variety article, 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.000 a Deadline article has dropped about an ABC deal. You 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:50.320 and I are going to get to that here in 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.840 just a little bit. And of course your article that 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.680 is in um on Puck and I'm sure we'll be 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.720 talking about it on your podcast The Town. You know. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.760 One thing I can say is it was interesting when 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.280 I even when I was on the show, and then 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:07.640 afterwards when I would go into meetings, pitch meetings, what 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.120 have you, people would always stop and say, okay, but 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.400 first you got to tell us stories. You gotta tell 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.200 us what was it really like? There really was? And 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.120 I take it this is what I want to hear 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.599 from you, because you are known industry wide. What was 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.400 the feeling? What do you what was the idea of 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:29.640 Mike Flice out there? He was this dark genius that 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:34.640 people believed had an idea originally for a show that 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.280 cut through. There were a million dating shows out there, 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:43.719 and this one became the huge franchise. Why is that so? 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:46.599 I mean, I'm sure you would argue and had a 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:53.080 great host that was mostly it. Timing is timing is everything. 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:54.880 It was lightning in a bottle. I think it hit 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.159 the right chord at the right time, and it was 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.640 produced very well, very well produced, and it appeared during 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:06.039 that there was this cauldron of creativity in nineteen ninety 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.600 nine to two thousand and two where most of the 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:14.479 big reality franchises that still power the industry today. We're 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:21.000 talking millionaire Survivor, Big Brother, American Idol, The Bachelor. Those 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.920 shows all debuted in that three year period between ninety 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.000 nine and two thousand and two, and it was right 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.479 when people were accepting of this format. And here comes 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:37.960 this very well produced dating show that has a mix 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:45.680 of fantasy and this darker, kind of machiavellian twist on 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.359 it where the women are all competing for the affection 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:54.240 of a man, and it struck a chord and he 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.480 was definitely part of that. From everything that I have, 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.120 everyone I've talked to said, this is not a guy 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:05.080 who got lucky and attached himself to something that was 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.479 going to be a hit. Regardless, he absolutely contributed to 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.760 the success, especially in the early years of the show. 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.960 But other than Bachelor and Bachelor related shows, he never 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:19.880 created another show that was a hit, and he became 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.320 a presence on the show that was I don't want 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.400 to use the word toxic. I think that gets thrown 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.600 around a lot, but people that work on the show 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:32.400 did not consider him a positive influence. You know, you 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:38.280 mentioned in the article you called his farewell statement ridiculous, 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:45.120 and part of that statement really seemed to try to 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.760 distance Mike from the show. And they actually used the 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.080 term ten years that he hadn't really been a part 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.120 of those show for the last decade. You took issue 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.880 with that. Yeah, he's still around, he's you know, it's 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:06.279 a sporadic appearance. From everything that I have heard, he 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.919 was still involved. And why were they trying to distance 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.640 in that statement? Why were they trying in your mind 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.600 as a lawyer, putting on your lawyer hat because I 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:16.080 know you are, Why try to distance him from the 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.840 franchise like that. Well, there's there's controversies that have played 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.960 out over the past decade. I mean, namely the show. 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:28.320 There was a discrimination complaint filed against the show, claiming 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.680 that it systematically excluded black people. And there were the 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.200 personal scandals that he had, I mean, he was he 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.920 was accused of beating his pregnant wife, which he has denied. 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.960 He got into this fight with his neighbor in Malibu 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.360 where he allegedly was playing loud barking noises in the 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.160 middle of the night, and you know, got into the 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:53.120 controversy there. There was everything that happened that led to 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.640 your exit from the show, and the controversy surrounding the 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.160 Matt James season of the Bachelor. So there's a lot 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.640 of stuff that this show has endured. I mean, to 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:07.520 its credit, it still has an audience, although the audience 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.200 has gone down significantly over the past few years, but 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.320 it's still endures and I think ABC and Warner Brothers 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.880 would like it to continue on. Well does it I 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.920 think that's the multi multimillion dollar question. Does it endure? Matt? 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.080 You know much has been made and you mentioned as 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.240 much in your article about the ratings. Obviously they've been 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.200 declining show after show, season after season, and you know 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.880 this Monday's finale was the lowest in history. Does this 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:42.440 show endure? Does this show survive? I think it does 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:47.280 because as much as the ratings have declined, it's still 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:51.120 generating an audience larger than other stuff you put in 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.439 that place. It is a franchise that people know, and 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.960 we are not seeing the streaming numbers for the show. 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.440 For all we know, the streaming numbers are large, the 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.760 magical streaming numbers that nobody really ever knows and people 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.080 can talk about. I know, I know, but you gotta 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.000 assume that there is an audience for this show that 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.080 is finding it on streams. There definitely is still an 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.160 audience for this show. There's still an appetite for it. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:20.880 I mean, it's obviously the social relevance is is diminished incredibly, 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.680 so have the ratings. But as you said, even if 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.000 you're just taking the network ratings, it's still viable. It 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.280 still makes money. They they definitely need this to stay. Yeah, 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:37.080 and I could see other franchise elements going away before 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.199 the flagship goes away. You know, maybe they don't need 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.480 Bachelor in Paradise right or hours start getting cut down, 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.320 it moves nights. Yeah, there's a Bachelor at every other year. 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:50.720 It'll be death by a thousand paper cuts. It's not 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.719 going to be the guillotine, is what you're saying. Yeah, 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.640 and I and I don't you know, or maybe they 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.400 figure out some way to reinvent it. You know. One 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.520 of the criticisms of the show is that it feels 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.520 very familiar. Each year. It's been on for twenty one years, 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:06.920 You're going to be familiar with it. It's a format 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.640 in these contestants are plugged into a format, and that's 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:12.720 part of the reason why it endures. You know, what 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:27.679 you're getting one thing I want to dive into. You 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.560 mentioned it and then the Deadline article really went into this, 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.160 and let's try and explain this in layman's terms so 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.280 everybody can kind of understand the impact of why this 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.640 is important. I'll give everybody the set up because it's 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.680 kind of hard to explain that The Bachelor itself is 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.559 owned by a production company, Mike Flice's production company, Next Entertainment. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.560 Next Entertainment is kind of owned and operated was owned 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.360 and operated by Warner Brothers, Warner Horizon. That's the studio 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.560 we were on ABC, So that's the network we were on. 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.040 So it's kind of a three headed monster, if you will. 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:09.640 Somewhere along the way, Mike was offered an overall deal 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:15.160 at ABC. That's the report, and you and Deadline both 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:19.680 have said that overall deal is dead. Can you explain 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.640 a little bit more about how someone would go from 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:27.880 Warner in this situation to ABC? Why is this significant? Well, 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.079 it's significant because presumably if Mike flies is based at 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.800 Warner Brothers, they would want all of his producing services 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:41.080 and all capacities for anything he does outside of the Bachelor. 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.679 This we don't know the details on what why I mean, 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:48.400 we don't know the details on what this deal would 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.120 have entailed. Or why Warners would have wanted him to 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:56.440 go over there, But it seemed like Warners didn't want 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.080 to deal with him anymore. Well, would they have wanted 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.400 him to go over there? Or did he do that 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.080 himself or was somebody Maybe he did it himself, Maybe 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.800 he found I mean, he's very friendly with Rob Mills, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:12.400 who is the head of unscripted shows at ABC. Maybe 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.559 there was a relationship there and he said come on, 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.720 come on over. There was a new division that was 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.960 being launched, and he probably may have said, come on 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.480 over and do something for us here. It may have 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.439 been Warners not wanting to deal with him anymore. But 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.800 on the ABC behalf and again, you're you're the lawyer here. 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.280 Doesn't that if you know there are problems, you know 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.360 there are issues on the horizon, doesn't that open you 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:42.160 up to Well, my understanding is that this was scrapped 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.040 when those issues became apparent gotcha, and that when the 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:52.960 investigation began, the ABC deal went away. I don't think 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:54.920 this is played out yet. I think maybe that's the 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.480 next question. Is this over? I don't think it's over. 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.320 I think that there will likely be more coming out 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.199 about some of the onset behavior some You know that 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:11.079 a number of people on the show have engaged a lawyer, 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.200 the same lawyer that you used when you left the show, 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:19.760 and they are pursuing potential claims against the show, maybe 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.200 for retaliation. There was a group of executives that were 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.920 put in charge of the show that some people on 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:28.839 the show have said, you know, maybe we're not as 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:30.880 experienced as some of the others who have been with 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.800 the show longer and perhaps deserved a shot to run 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.600 the show. A lot of un answered questions at this point. So, Matt, 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:39.720 one thing that I do know is that the show 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.000 is in production. They're shooting The Bachelorette, the next season 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.200 of The Bacherette right now. And having been a part 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:48.960 of this franchise for twenty years, I know this is 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.760 weighing on the crew on the cast. Obviously this has 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.080 gotten around. Yeah, you're kind of in the bubble, but 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.120 that doesn't you know, this will permeate the bubble, and 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:02.120 so all these producers that we're already in turmoil are 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.080 now dealing with this. So it is a lot. And 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.880 speaking of a lot again, I want to say thank 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.320 you because you just dropped this story about an hour ago. 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.040 You jumped on with me. Is there more you're digging 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.120 into and more you're working on? Oh? Absolutely, I'll have 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.160 more up on the puck website, puck dot News, and 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.040 we'll definitely be talking about on The Town podcast, probably 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:25.920 in the next week or so. But yeah, there's more 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.400 to this story, So the Puck Dot News and of 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.200 course the great podcast The Town, which you cover the 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.480 industry so brilliantly. I often want to jump on and 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.480 argue with you and debate you, but that's why it's 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:42.800 a good podcast, and that's why you're welcome. Well continued 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.520 success on this story, great job, great article. Investigative reporting. 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.760 Journalism is not dead apparently, and maybe we reconvene next 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.080 week and dive into this a little more when we 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.320 have more information. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you again, 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.440 my thanks to Matt Bellany as this this is a 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:05.560 very fluid situation and much more is going to continue 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.440 to spill out. This is just the first night. First 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.720 three articles from Variety, Deadline and Matt Bellany, who's been 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.240 so gracious to join us tonight, have written these articles. 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:17.680 But this is the tip of the iceberg and things 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:19.720 like this, and I'm sure more will come out. We 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.200 will stay on it. I will keep you up to date. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.320 And what I'm really interested in too is what is 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.000 this going to do to you? What's it going to 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.400 do to Bachelor Nation, what's to due to the viewers? 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.640 What is your perspective of this, does it matter to you? 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.800 And will it affect the show anymore? We will dive 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.760 into all of this. We will revisit this next week. 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.680 We will have a brand new episode for you Monday. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.240 Until then, have a great weekend and next time we 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.920 have a lot more to talk about. Thanks for listening. 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.680 Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic pod ever 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:54.880 and make sure to write us a review and leave 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.320 us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.