Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2: The paramedic that's tending to him says, you know what happened,
Speaker 2: and Seart turns to him and says, I wanted to
Speaker 2: kill everyone in the building.
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken
Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,
Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true
Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both
Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the
Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. This is a story about
Speaker 1: a landmark case in Canada from just a few years ago.
Speaker 1: A teenager attacked two women in a massage parlor in
Speaker 1: Toronto in twenty twenty two. He killed one and seriously
Speaker 1: injured the other. When he told investigators why he did it,
Speaker 1: they settled on trying him for murder and terrorism. Journalist
Speaker 1: Lana Hall tells me about her piece in Maclean's magazine
Speaker 1: called the in Cell Terrorist. I had not heard of
Speaker 1: the in cell community until I started the show, which
Speaker 1: is about four years old at this point, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I felt like we covered at
Speaker 1: least two or three of these cases, and I just
Speaker 1: had to do a lot more digging on it. Tell me,
Speaker 1: is this sort of a new phenomenon and new? I mean,
Speaker 1: is this a last decade type of thing.
Speaker 2: I guess maybe the term is newish. It's maybe something
Speaker 2: that's you know, come to popularity within the last five years.
Speaker 2: I don't think the sentiment behind the in cell community
Speaker 2: is that new. I think it just has a name
Speaker 2: now and it's sort of found it. It's collective, you know,
Speaker 2: thanks to the Internet and all these kind of digital
Speaker 2: methods of communication.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: Something interesting I learned in the research of this article
Speaker 2: was that the term was actually point here in Toronto
Speaker 2: by a local university student. She was having some trouble
Speaker 2: finding a date or some kind of a meaningful sexual relationship,
Speaker 2: and kind of as a joke, she set up this
Speaker 2: forum that was called Atlanti's Involuntary Celibacy Project or something
Speaker 2: like that, and it was kind of a joke, kind
Speaker 2: of a way to connect with the people and chat
Speaker 2: about the pitfalls of the dating scene. And at the
Speaker 2: time it was really a support network for people, I think.
Speaker 2: And eventually she found love. She abandoned the forum and somehow,
Speaker 2: you know, the horse was already out of the gate,
Speaker 2: so to speak, and it took on this darker, misogynistic
Speaker 2: undertone after a while. By the time she discovered that
Speaker 2: it was too late and it wasn't really something she
Speaker 2: wanted to be associated with anymore.
Speaker 1: Tell me what the typical profile is of someone who
Speaker 1: feels like they belong in this community, who would go
Speaker 1: on all of these boards and you know, kind of
Speaker 1: espouse whatever the belief is and then talk about the belief.
Speaker 2: I don't know really what the profile is in terms
Speaker 2: of demographics, other than it does tend to mostly be
Speaker 2: younger men. They have this belief that they are unable
Speaker 2: to find a relationship, whether that's you know, a romantic
Speaker 2: relationship or something sexual. There's this pervasive belief that it's
Speaker 2: because women are more sexually selective. And over time, as
Speaker 2: women have gained more financial independence, they get to be
Speaker 2: shoesier about their male partners. And so this means that
Speaker 2: men that are sort of at the bottom of the
Speaker 2: food chain, what in the in cell community they often
Speaker 2: refer to as beta males, that those guys are perpetually
Speaker 2: getting the short end of the stick, that they you know,
Speaker 2: they're not getting the kind of female attention they need.
Speaker 2: This is sort of a state that's been bestowed upon
Speaker 2: them at birth. There's no way for them to move
Speaker 2: up the social ladder and to accomplish these things. And
Speaker 2: they really believe that women hold the blame for that,
Speaker 2: and that women should be punished for that, in some
Speaker 2: cases very violently. And so there's a lot of this
Speaker 2: kind of discourse online talking about, you know, how they
Speaker 2: feel inferior, how women are the root of this problem,
Speaker 2: and that something needs to be done about it, and
Speaker 2: sometimes that something is really catastrophic.
Speaker 1: When you started digging into this case, specifically for your article,
Speaker 1: your long form article, what drew you into the case
Speaker 1: of this spa in Toronto in twenty twenty that became
Speaker 1: this just awful scene of blood and mayhem.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it probably came to my attention the
Speaker 2: way it did for most people in Toronto, and that
Speaker 2: was just through the daily news cycle. It did hit
Speaker 2: the newspapers and the online outline, and so it came
Speaker 2: up in my news feed. And when I heard that
Speaker 2: it happened in a massage parlor, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I wonder what happened. And then when
Speaker 2: I looked closer at the pictures, I realized I know
Speaker 2: that spa in particular. And so by this point, I've
Speaker 2: been working as a full time journalist for a number
Speaker 2: of years. But the reason the image caught my attention
Speaker 2: was because before I was a journalist, I also worked
Speaker 2: in Toronto's underground massage parlor economy. In particular, I worked
Speaker 2: at a SPA that was probably like a ten minute
Speaker 2: walk from Crown Spa, which is the location where this
Speaker 2: crime took place. So then I was kind of following
Speaker 2: it from these two channels, right, I did have this
Speaker 2: strong personal connection. I really wanted to know what was
Speaker 2: going on. And then when I heard about, ultimately what
Speaker 2: kind of charges were going to be laid in this case,
Speaker 2: which were pretty unprecedented, I was really surprised and I
Speaker 2: wanted to know more about that.
Speaker 1: So take me to this time period twenty twenty Toronto.
Speaker 1: You know, this is not something I've talked about before.
Speaker 1: This sort of the I don't know what's the best phrase.
Speaker 1: Is it a spa that also kind of offers erotic massages?
Speaker 1: Is that the right thing to say.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of really interchangeable terms. I think it's
Speaker 2: fair to call it like an erotic massage parlor. Sometimes
Speaker 2: people call them spas, but in a very casual way,
Speaker 2: and that's sort of a distinct, Like it's distinct from
Speaker 2: a place where you might go to get your nails done,
Speaker 2: or you might go to get like, you know, some
Speaker 2: kind of a facial treatment or something like that. In Toronto,
Speaker 2: there are these these businesses. They're called erotic massage parlors.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they're called body or parlors. The way the licensing
Speaker 2: works in Toronto is that there's a cap on the
Speaker 2: number of them, so I think they only give out
Speaker 2: like twenty five licenses or something. So there's a set
Speaker 2: number of them, and because of the way Zodian regulations
Speaker 2: work in the city, they're all sort of end up
Speaker 2: in some of these industrial neighborhoods to the north and
Speaker 2: the east of the core of the city. So there's
Speaker 2: this particular neighborhood kind of in the northwest corner of Toronto.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit cut off from the rest of
Speaker 2: the city by a major highway, and there's just a
Speaker 2: sprinkling of kind of random industrial building. There's like an
Speaker 2: auto body shop, there's a tile shop. You know, there's
Speaker 2: probably like a Tim Horton somewhere, which is a very
Speaker 2: Canadian centric coffee chain, and there's a couple of these
Speaker 2: massage parlors that are scattered around as well. They're very nondescript.
Speaker 2: They typically don't have you know, visible signage or lighting
Speaker 2: or anything like that. They're just kind of tucked it
Speaker 2: in a very discreete fashion. That's kind of the setting
Speaker 2: for this crime that happened on the morning of February
Speaker 2: twenty fourth, twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Are these kind of parlors where you would have people
Speaker 1: investigating trafficking or now I'm trying to figure out the
Speaker 1: difference between what we would call that kind of parlor
Speaker 1: here in the United States and what you all might
Speaker 1: call it in Canada.
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's an equivalent for this in
Speaker 2: the States. I know that because sometimes I would ask
Speaker 2: clients do you have these places in the States, And
Speaker 2: often they would say know, or they'd say, we do
Speaker 2: have them, but they're not as well regulated in Toronto.
Speaker 2: You are if you have a license to be a
Speaker 2: licensed body rubber. It's the same way you would get
Speaker 2: a license to be like a taxi driver or a
Speaker 2: food truck operator or an exotic dancer. If you have
Speaker 2: that license, you are licensed to give people what is
Speaker 2: called an erotic massage, which is just a massage that's
Speaker 2: a little bit more sensual and physical. There aren't supposed
Speaker 2: to be sexual services being offered at these places.
Speaker 1: But it is.
Speaker 2: You know, it is a little bit of a fine line,
Speaker 2: as I'm sure you can imagine, even just by the title.
Speaker 2: These are often jobs that are paid in cash, so
Speaker 2: they tend to attract people that are kind of in
Speaker 2: a bit of a transitional phase of life, and they
Speaker 2: do operate a little bit underground because because there is
Speaker 2: that fine line between erotic massage and sexual acts, they
Speaker 2: do get a lot of attention from the bylaw officers,
Speaker 2: from the cops who are often coming around and you know,
Speaker 2: making sure nothing unto ward why their definition is happening.
Speaker 2: I do think it's possible that you know, at some
Speaker 2: of these places you might find some young women who
Speaker 2: have been trafficked. You might find some young women who
Speaker 2: are in this business for not the greatest reason. Maybe
Speaker 2: they're you know, feeding a drug habit or kind of
Speaker 2: living at the poverty line or something like that. But overwhelmingly,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people who work at these
Speaker 2: places they're just women trying to make a better living. Right.
Speaker 2: They could be students, they could be single parents, they
Speaker 2: could be you know, burgeoning entrepreneurs. They could be people
Speaker 2: that are saving up for a trip, or saving up
Speaker 2: for a car, or trying to pay down some credit
Speaker 2: card debt or something. So you really do find all
Speaker 2: kinds of women and some men, I suppose, working in
Speaker 2: these spaces.
Speaker 1: Were you in a transitional point if you feel comfortable
Speaker 1: talking about it kind of? Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I had been a journalism student for about maybe
Speaker 2: a year and a bit. Prior to that, I had
Speaker 2: dropped out of journalism school temporarily. At the time, I
Speaker 2: had a part time retail job. And this is like
Speaker 2: twenty ten, So I think we're still kind of coming
Speaker 2: out of the recession a little bit, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: haven't fully recovered from that yet, and it's hard to
Speaker 2: find full time hours in a retail or you know,
Speaker 2: a customer service kind of setting. So I was really
Speaker 2: struggling with that, and also I think on some level
Speaker 2: that sounded kind of boring to me anyway. So I
Speaker 2: remember just flipping through the back pages of what used
Speaker 2: to be our alternative newsweekly, which used to have advertisements
Speaker 2: for like escort services and strippers and massage parlors, and
Speaker 2: I was just like, I wonder what it would be
Speaker 2: like to work at one of these places. I think
Speaker 2: on some level, like I thought it might be a
Speaker 2: good story, not in the sense that I wanted to
Speaker 2: write about it, but just you know, I'm a journalist.
Speaker 2: That's that's how my brain works. I'm in the business
Speaker 2: at finding good story, to be it in a professional
Speaker 2: setting or or I guess.
Speaker 1: Personally life's experiences exactly.
Speaker 2: So I just said to myself, you know, I'm going
Speaker 2: to send an email to this one advertisement. We'll see
Speaker 2: what happens if, you know, if I have second thoughts,
Speaker 2: I don't have to follow through. And they invited me
Speaker 2: in for an interview like the next day or something,
Speaker 2: and then I was like, Okay, well, why don't you
Speaker 2: just go for an interview and then if that sounds
Speaker 2: uncomfortable to you, then you don't have to show it
Speaker 2: for your first day. And then I go to the interview,
Speaker 2: and then I'm like, Okay, well, if that feels uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: like you know, go to your first day. If that
Speaker 2: feels uncomfortable, you don't have to keep going. So I
Speaker 2: was I was sort of just easing myself into this idea,
Speaker 2: I guess generally. But you know what, it was a
Speaker 2: great way. I mean, at first it was a great
Speaker 2: way to make money. I liked the people. Generally. I
Speaker 2: was intrigued enough, I guess, to keep going. And then,
Speaker 2: you know, for a whole host of reasons, all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, you know, it's like I'm three years in
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, okay, I guess this is my
Speaker 2: life now.
Speaker 1: Now it's come full circle for you. So with this
Speaker 1: particular story, which I think is so well written, let's
Speaker 1: start with the victims, because I think that's the most
Speaker 1: important thing. Set the scene for me for Crown Spaw
Speaker 1: in general. You've already kind of talked about where these
Speaker 1: spaws are located in Toronto, but tell me about the
Speaker 1: people inside. And this was a spa that I know
Speaker 1: was regulated. Everything was on the up and up, and
Speaker 1: this had a good reputation. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a Monday morning, February twenty fourth, twenty twenty. It's
Speaker 2: kind of a standard morning I think at Crown Spa.
Speaker 2: You know, at least one client has come in for
Speaker 2: an appointment. Jc the manager, who's a young woman, I
Speaker 2: believe in her early thirties. She normally works a front
Speaker 2: desk in addition to her other duties, you know, handling
Speaker 2: the phones and reading clients and placing ads and things
Speaker 2: like that. She is about to go to a dentist
Speaker 2: appointment and there was supposed to be a receptionist that
Speaker 2: was going to come in that morning and fill in
Speaker 2: for her, and that receptionist hasn't shown up. So Jace
Speaker 2: is on her phone. She's frantically scrolling through the phone
Speaker 2: trying to get you know, somebody who she thinks knows
Speaker 2: the business well enough to cover for her just for
Speaker 2: a few hours. And she settles on a friend of hers,
Speaker 2: twenty four year old Ashley or Zaga, who I guess Jason,
Speaker 2: he knows you know, through the business, knows and trusts
Speaker 2: enough to have her cover that shift for her. She says,
Speaker 2: you know, can you come in on short notice, just
Speaker 2: for a few hours, and as she says, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 2: she takes the bus all the way from the other
Speaker 2: side of the city basically on short notice, gets to
Speaker 2: the SPA. It's around lunchtime, maybe, settles in at the
Speaker 2: friend desk, and Jac heads upstairs to get ready for
Speaker 2: her appointment.
Speaker 1: Have there been issues there not that come from the
Speaker 1: SPA's fault, But have they been targeted by anybody before?
Speaker 1: Is there controversy at all with this spa?
Speaker 2: I haven't heard of any controversy regarding this spa. I
Speaker 2: don't think there's been anything, you know, happening there that's
Speaker 2: beyond just the normal realm of like wild West behavior,
Speaker 2: and it sometimes happens in these unregulated labor economies. But
Speaker 2: I haven't heard of them being targeted or of anything.
Speaker 2: Certainly nothing of this magnitude happening there previously.
Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead and set the scene for me about
Speaker 1: what happens. We've said it's February twenty fourth, twenty twenty Monday.
Speaker 1: So we've got JC, the manager with a client upstairs.
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So there's three there's three levels to this building.
Speaker 2: There's a basement where there are some treatment rooms. There's
Speaker 2: the main floor where there is the front desk and
Speaker 2: some other rooms, and then there's the apartment upstairs, which
Speaker 2: is where Jac lives.
Speaker 1: And we have Ashley Arzaga who is at the front
Speaker 1: desk at this.
Speaker 2: Point exactly, so Jac's upstairs. She's getting ready for her
Speaker 2: appointment as she's at the front desk settling in. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: a seventeen year old boy named Ogazon Sert who lives
Speaker 2: about a fifteen minute walk away in a home with
Speaker 2: his father and his stepmother, is getting ready for his
Speaker 2: day in his basement bedroom and he puts on a
Speaker 2: trench coat, some sunglasses, and he grabs a couple items
Speaker 2: to put in his pockets. One of those is a
Speaker 2: stone that sharpens knives, one of them is his identification,
Speaker 2: and the last item is a seventeen inch sword, so
Speaker 2: like a short sword or kind of a large egger
Speaker 2: type weapon. He puts that in his pocket and he
Speaker 2: writes a note and the note says, long Live the
Speaker 2: in Cell Rebellion. He tucks that into his pocket before
Speaker 2: he leaves out the front door. He walks down the street.
Speaker 2: He walks to the parlor, opens the front door where
Speaker 2: Ashley is sitting at the front desk, and he begins
Speaker 2: to stab her with what will later be determined to
Speaker 2: be like forty two separate stab wounds. Jac's upstairs at
Speaker 2: this time. She hears some kind of a scuffle downstairs.
Speaker 2: She goes to check it out and stumbles into what
Speaker 2: I can only imagine is an absolutely horrific scene. She's
Speaker 2: lying on the floor in a pool of blood, probably
Speaker 2: dead by this point, and there's this guy in a
Speaker 2: trench coat with a machete who then whips around and
Speaker 2: starts attacking JC, who just minutes ago was consumed by
Speaker 2: whether she was going to get to her dentist appointment
Speaker 2: on time. And he's coming at her with the sword.
Speaker 2: He's screaming for Fanity's at her, telling her to die,
Speaker 2: calling her a bitch. They fall to the ground and
Speaker 2: they're struggling for a while. Jace had a her brother
Speaker 2: in law had been at the apartment with the intention
Speaker 2: of driving her to the dentist appointment, so he's around
Speaker 2: and she's screaming for him, and he comes down the
Speaker 2: stairs and is trying to open the door to the foyer,
Speaker 2: which is where JC and Sert are struggling on the floor.
Speaker 2: And he's pushing on the door, trying to open it,
Speaker 2: but their bodies are blocking it, and so jac says,
Speaker 2: this spot goes through her head, which is like, I've
Speaker 2: got to move, I've got to move both of us
Speaker 2: just a couple inches so he can open the door
Speaker 2: and get in to help us. And somehow, in the
Speaker 2: middle of all this struggling, she manages to do that.
Speaker 2: She manages to wrest the sword from his grasp and
Speaker 2: stab him in the back.
Speaker 1: And this poor guy is trying to get in. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, poor j C and Ashley, of course, but
Speaker 1: this guy is trying to get in to say her
Speaker 1: his family member, and he cannot get in because they're
Speaker 1: blocking the door.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like just a really chaotic scene. I
Speaker 2: feel that must have been really hard for him to
Speaker 2: hear these things but not understand fully what was going
Speaker 2: on on the other side of that door. So fortunately,
Speaker 2: you know, she was able to open it just a
Speaker 2: little bit. And then you know, shortly after that, Sert
Speaker 2: stumbles out of the door into the parking lot. He's
Speaker 2: been stabbed. She's bleeding from several different wounds, and she
Speaker 2: runs next door to see if the adjoining store will
Speaker 2: call mine one one for her, And yeah, it just
Speaker 2: sounds like a really terrifying few minutes. It's hard to
Speaker 2: imagine that this entire scene took place over just those
Speaker 2: few minutes because it sounds like so much happened.
Speaker 1: So it's twenty twenty when this happens, I would expect,
Speaker 1: like CCTV. Is that a security camera, kind of a
Speaker 1: normal thing that would have happened at one of these
Speaker 1: spaws in Canada.
Speaker 2: So there is CCTV in the inside of the building.
Speaker 2: So this whole attack was caught on camera. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I did not that. I didn't attend any of the
Speaker 2: preliminary hearings and that was when it was showed. And
Speaker 2: I believe that some of the media who was attending
Speaker 2: they did get to see that footage. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It
Speaker 2: sounds like it would be something really awful to bear
Speaker 2: witness too. But ultimately the footage was really what would
Speaker 2: sunk the case because all of it was caught on camera.
Speaker 2: You know, you can see this attack unfolding the way
Speaker 2: that jac said. You can see the attack on Ashley,
Speaker 2: and you can see like the brutality behind it, so
Speaker 2: that was, you know, really kind of a life saver
Speaker 2: I think in terms of getting that first degree murder conviction.
Speaker 1: In the United States, if that footage had existed in
Speaker 1: this kind of attack, I feel like it would have
Speaker 1: gotten leaked somehow and just made its way all. I mean,
Speaker 1: that is sort of the perfect thing for potentially some
Speaker 1: members of the intell community to pass around everywhere and
Speaker 1: then people of course be horrified. In general. Did that
Speaker 1: end up happening in Toronto or no?
Speaker 2: Not, to my knowledge, I have not. I think that
Speaker 2: they're probably guarding that pretty tightly. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: generally in Canada, our criminal justice system is protected a
Speaker 2: little more, I guess, right, Like you guys allow cameras
Speaker 2: in the courtroom, so there's lots of like real time
Speaker 2: footage of these cases happening. We don't allow that in Canada.
Speaker 2: Journalists are allowed to be in the courtroom, but they
Speaker 2: are not allowed to videotape any of that footage. So
Speaker 2: it may just be a bit of a difference in culture.
Speaker 2: But you know, thank god, I don't believe that footage
Speaker 2: has been released, and I hope it stays that way.
Speaker 1: Good. Well, there are quite a few judges who won't
Speaker 1: allow cameras in their courtroom here, which is good, and
Speaker 1: I think some states that it's just a law you
Speaker 1: can't have cameras. But still I could see some places
Speaker 1: where it's helpful and then certainly a lot of places
Speaker 1: where it's hurtful. Okay, So if I set the scene,
Speaker 1: it's Cert in the parking lot at this point, and
Speaker 1: we've got JC next door trying to get the police.
Speaker 1: Does he leave? What happens with him in this park?
Speaker 1: Does he have a car? I forgot how you told
Speaker 1: me he got there?
Speaker 2: Oh? Cert, No, he walked. He walked on foot. What
Speaker 2: I've been able to determine from Jac's testimony is that
Speaker 2: he was a little bit stunned by this entire thing.
Speaker 2: She said that when she stabbed him, he let out
Speaker 2: this huge, melodramatic gas that she thought was like, very
Speaker 2: much over the top. I think at some point he
Speaker 2: also seemed to have injured his fingers. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that was something that she did to him, or
Speaker 2: if he did that himself or in the struggle, but
Speaker 2: she said he was sitting in the parking lot staring
Speaker 2: at his fingers. To be honest, I think It's very
Speaker 2: possible that he himself was also shocked at what was unfolding,
Speaker 2: like maybe he even had a weird out of body experience,
Speaker 2: and then he was there. He was waiting in the
Speaker 2: parking lot. JC had at some point run back in.
Speaker 2: She's still in manager mode. Clearly she had run back
Speaker 2: into the spot to lock the door. There was also
Speaker 2: another attendant who had been in the spot in the
Speaker 2: basement with a client, so she ran in to get her.
Speaker 2: She said, leave out the back door, Call nine one.
Speaker 2: I think that JC ultimately ended up running across the streets.
Speaker 2: She didn't want to be close to Sert right. She
Speaker 2: didn't know if he was going to get up and
Speaker 2: do something else, so she ran across the street and
Speaker 2: she was, I think, just kind of waiting there for
Speaker 2: the police and the ambulance to show up.
Speaker 1: So what happens when they do show up, I mean,
Speaker 1: he's still there.
Speaker 2: He's still there. Jac gets taken immediately, I think, to
Speaker 2: trauma hospital to treat her wounds. The paramedics are tending
Speaker 2: to search as well. He's been stabbed, but I don't
Speaker 2: think his injuries were quite as severe as Jacy's. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the paramedic that's tending to him, says you know what happened,
Speaker 2: and Sart turns to him and says, I wanted to
Speaker 2: kill everyone in the building. I'm happy I just got one.
Speaker 1: Wow. Did they find out why he targeted that particular spa. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The general consensus from what he told police was that
Speaker 2: he just lived in the neighborhood and he a few
Speaker 2: months prior it had occurred to him that there was
Speaker 2: a spa there. He doesn't seem to have a very
Speaker 2: clear understanding of what went on in the spa, like
Speaker 2: he refers to them as being prostitutes. So my guess
Speaker 2: is that he was just out walking and he just
Speaker 2: perhaps stumbled up across it. Later, they found some Google
Speaker 2: searches on his computer that you know, we're searching for
Speaker 2: things like Toronto massage parlor, Canada massage parlor, So maybe
Speaker 2: he was looking generally for a massage parlor and that
Speaker 2: was just the closest one that came up on his
Speaker 2: search results.
Speaker 1: Did you say that Ashley was stabbed? Did you say
Speaker 1: forty one times forty two? Wow? I mean that seems
Speaker 1: much more angry than someone who is just trying to
Speaker 1: eliminate so called prostitutes. Is that what seems like to
Speaker 1: you when you were reading that description.
Speaker 2: I think so. Yeah, it sounded like what they would
Speaker 2: refer to in some circles as overkill.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's an unthinkable amount of stab wounds and
Speaker 2: like no part of her body was was really left
Speaker 2: untouched in that sense. I can't imagine what the scene
Speaker 2: was like. I think it just speaks to the level
Speaker 2: of rage and anger that starts exhibited.
Speaker 1: Before or we find out more about cert Tell me
Speaker 1: about what will become the media coverage here. Is this
Speaker 1: the first big introduction to the in cell community, to
Speaker 1: Toronto or to Canada.
Speaker 2: No, actually it's not, And that's what's a little bit surprising.
Speaker 2: Back in twenty eighteen, we had another really high profile
Speaker 2: murder in which a man in his early twenties drove
Speaker 2: a rented van onto the sidewalk outside of subway station
Speaker 2: in Toronto and he ended up killing I think eleven people,
Speaker 2: most of them are women. But it was a fairly
Speaker 2: like indiscriminate act. He was kind of just plowing into
Speaker 2: the sidewalk essentially, but he also professed some you know,
Speaker 2: allegiance quote unquote to the in cell community. He left
Speaker 2: some kind of a message on social media shortly before
Speaker 2: the act happened, stating that it was a crime that
Speaker 2: was motivated by the in cell community. And that was
Speaker 2: a really big shock when that happened. That made headlines,
Speaker 2: you know, not just here in Canada but everywhere. I
Speaker 2: think for some people that was their first introduction to
Speaker 2: in cell behavior and this in cell ideology. But it
Speaker 2: was interesting because in that case, the prosecutor's office did
Speaker 2: not which is like the equivalent of the district attorney's
Speaker 2: office in the US. They didn't attempt to charge him
Speaker 2: with terrorism. The judge in that case determined that he
Speaker 2: was motivated by notoriety, like personal notoriety more than ideology, which,
Speaker 2: as we'll get to you later, is a key component
Speaker 2: of a terrorism offense in Canada. So they didn't opt
Speaker 2: to charge him that way. I mean, he did get
Speaker 2: he did get convicted of like eleven counts of first
Speaker 2: degree murder, but terrorism was never on the table for
Speaker 2: whatever reason for that case.
Speaker 1: So JC is hospitalized, but does she fully recover. I
Speaker 1: assume from all of her injuries.
Speaker 2: She does have some nerve damage. On that one hand.
Speaker 2: I saw her at the hearings and she looked healthy.
Speaker 2: She's clearly very smart, articulate, you know, resilient person. I
Speaker 2: think she's reallyocused on moving on from this the best
Speaker 2: way that she can.
Speaker 1: Did Ashley's family attend or was it just too painful?
Speaker 1: Of sure, she wasn't even meant to be there. That's
Speaker 1: so awful.
Speaker 2: Some of Affitt's family did attend. I believe at least
Speaker 2: one of her sisters, maybe two of her sisters attended,
Speaker 2: or just on the last day on the sentencing, they were,
Speaker 2: you know, very emotional. It was obviously really hard for
Speaker 2: them to be there and to look you know, her
Speaker 2: culler in the space. I can only imagine what that
Speaker 2: must have been like for them. And they also provided
Speaker 2: victim impact statements which were read out by the prosecutors
Speaker 2: at the sentencing as well.
Speaker 1: Well. Take me into Sert's mind as much as you can.
Speaker 1: He is under arrest. He makes this bold statement about
Speaker 1: wanting to kill everybody, but he was happy that he
Speaker 1: just got one. He's taken down. Is there anything else
Speaker 1: that's illuminated about this seventeen year old's life or how
Speaker 1: he got into this ideology to begin with?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as soon as he said that you know,
Speaker 2: that triggered the police to look into this more closely.
Speaker 2: So they went into his basement bedroom and they went
Speaker 2: through his belongings and they found some pretty concerning things
Speaker 2: and also painted a pretty concerning picture of just his
Speaker 2: life generally. So this is a seventeen year old boy.
Speaker 2: His parents divorced when he was young. At the time,
Speaker 2: he was living with his father and stepmother, but he
Speaker 2: wasn't going to school. He dropped out of school in
Speaker 2: like the ninth or the tenth grade. He didn't appear
Speaker 2: to be working, didn't really appear to have much in
Speaker 2: terms of structure, you know, whether socially or academically. They
Speaker 2: didn't have friends. It really didn't seem like he had
Speaker 2: much going on at all other than just spending his
Speaker 2: days in the basement being on the internet. I know
Speaker 2: that sounds like kind of a cliche for some of these,
Speaker 2: you know, like maladjusted young people, but that is really
Speaker 2: what the police found when they did a little bit
Speaker 2: deeper into his story. So then they seized his laptop
Speaker 2: and they found that he was active on a number
Speaker 2: of gaming platforms. He was really active on some in
Speaker 2: cell forums and in cell YouTube channels, and it just
Speaker 2: seems like he'd been spiraling deeper and deeper into this
Speaker 2: ever since, you know, he left school.
Speaker 1: Ultimately, do you think that one of the common threads
Speaker 1: that we find in the in cell community is a
Speaker 1: feeling of sort of the type of purpose that we
Speaker 1: as a society assigned to having a purpose in life,
Speaker 1: that they lack that career ambition or relate really deep
Speaker 1: relationship ambition or you know, autruism or something like that.
Speaker 1: Is that sort of a thread that you see throughout this.
Speaker 2: I want to believe it's that easy. Although to be honest,
Speaker 2: I think that anybody could be an in cell.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I actually don't think it really discriminates him that way.
Speaker 2: I suspect there are lots of high performing people who
Speaker 2: have jobs and families and hobbies and maybe friends who
Speaker 2: perhaps like do secretly subscribe to some of these ideas
Speaker 2: about you know, the roles that men and women are
Speaker 2: supposed to be playing in society. But in terms of
Speaker 2: like the desperation behind Sertz act, I do think that
Speaker 2: there was something to that, you know, I think if
Speaker 2: he had had some of those alternate ambitions or alternate
Speaker 2: activities in his life to give it meaning perhaps those
Speaker 2: would have anchored him in reality a little more.
Speaker 1: So when the Crown prosecutor charges him, and you know,
Speaker 1: we are going down this road of a trial, there's
Speaker 1: some controversy about that that you had sort of alluded
Speaker 1: to tell me the directions that they could have potentially gone.
Speaker 1: But what direction they went to.
Speaker 2: I mean, after the police have collected all this evidence,
Speaker 2: they opted to charge him not with first degree murder
Speaker 2: and attempted murderer, but also with an act of terrorism.
Speaker 2: And they claimed that, you know, his allegiance or his
Speaker 2: dedication to the in cell community constituted something called ideological terrorism.
Speaker 2: But there was just one problem with that, which is
Speaker 2: that that had never been done before in Canada certainly,
Speaker 2: you know, likely anywhere in the world. Nobody had ever
Speaker 2: tried to land a terrorsm conviction based on a crime
Speaker 2: that was known to be affiliated with the in cell movement.
Speaker 2: This is totally unprecedented. I still don't have a clear
Speaker 2: understanding of why they decided to choose that case to
Speaker 2: pursue that. Why now when we you know, we've had
Speaker 2: other examples in the past of perhaps higher profile in
Speaker 2: cell related violence that could have also resulted in those charges.
Speaker 2: I don't know why they chose this particular case for that,
Speaker 2: but it certainly it surprised me on multiple levels when
Speaker 2: I heard.
Speaker 1: That what is the difference in Canada between first degree
Speaker 1: murder and a terrorism act?
Speaker 2: Well, that is a really good question, and that is
Speaker 2: something that came up in some sources that I talked to.
Speaker 2: I talked to some lawyers who weren't affiliated with this
Speaker 2: case just to get their their idea about what this
Speaker 2: kind of a conviction might mean, and what a lot
Speaker 2: of people said was that they weren't actually sure if
Speaker 2: there was a point to adding a terrorism conviction on
Speaker 2: top of the first degree murder conviction, because in Canada
Speaker 2: we don't have the death penalty, So if you are
Speaker 2: convicted of first degree murder, generally what's going to be
Speaker 2: on the table is life in prison with no chance
Speaker 2: of parole for twenty five years. There are other things
Speaker 2: you could add to that, like labeling someone a dangerous
Speaker 2: offender and things that might, you know, sort of impact
Speaker 2: the seriousness of that sentence. But if you're already facing
Speaker 2: that for a first degree in murder charge, you know
Speaker 2: you can't you can't like increase that sentence. You can't
Speaker 2: in the States, we sometimes see this happen and what
Speaker 2: it means is the difference between life and prison and
Speaker 2: the death penalty. But we don't even have that option
Speaker 2: in Canada. So some lawyers were like, what is the
Speaker 2: point of this. He's already getting like the worst punishment
Speaker 2: Canada can dole out to its offenders. What would be
Speaker 2: the point of adding this.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if it's setting a precedent, because
Speaker 1: what if JC and Ashley had both survived, then you're
Speaker 1: looking at two counts of attempted murder and he could
Speaker 1: have I don't know what it is in Canada, but
Speaker 1: he could have been out in years or something. If
Speaker 1: you lay in that terrorist offense on top of that,
Speaker 1: maybe that would get him to life for a longer side,
Speaker 1: I just wonder if this is more of like a
Speaker 1: setting a precedent type of thing.
Speaker 2: I think that's possible, and that is something that some
Speaker 2: people did bring up, like it would be more useful,
Speaker 2: ironically in a case where someone was convicted of like
Speaker 2: baslaughter or second devieworder, because then perhaps it could tip
Speaker 2: them into that more serious category.
Speaker 1: Now, what do we get out of search once he's
Speaker 1: in police custoding we know about his background, no structure,
Speaker 1: seemingly lack of purpose he falls into this community. Does
Speaker 1: he talk more about his thought process behind this? Did
Speaker 1: his parents have any suspicions about this?
Speaker 2: We know a lot about his parents and involvement. I
Speaker 2: think that they had to be subpoened at one point
Speaker 2: in an early hearing. I was not privy to that hearing,
Speaker 2: but they never attended any of the hearings that I
Speaker 2: was at. His defense lawyer told me that they had
Speaker 2: basically washed their hands of him, So, you know, we
Speaker 2: really don't know what was going on there. I find
Speaker 2: it hard to wrap my head around the idea that
Speaker 2: they had no concerns with him not going to school
Speaker 2: and not working. So I'm really not quite sure what
Speaker 2: the dynamic was there, But I think it's probably safe
Speaker 2: to say it wasn't, you know, healthy and supportive in
Speaker 2: the way that it should have been. What we heard
Speaker 2: from Sert as he talked a little more to the
Speaker 2: police officers is that he'd been planning the attack for months.
Speaker 2: He felt a kinship with the man I was talking
Speaker 2: about who had driven the van into several people in Toronto.
Speaker 2: He felt a kinship with Elliott Roger who it's the
Speaker 2: perpetrator of a pretty high profile in cell related mass
Speaker 2: murder in the States. You know that he really felt
Speaker 2: a kinship with these people who you know, also felt
Speaker 2: like they were wronged by women, and he wanted to
Speaker 2: take some action against it. He was also asked if
Speaker 2: there was a reason that he chose that massage parlor
Speaker 2: or is there's a reason he chose, you know, women
Speaker 2: working in them as parlor business, And he talked a
Speaker 2: little bit about how in the in cell community there's
Speaker 2: like this particular hatred for sex workers or women who
Speaker 2: work in sort of sex work adjacent field like strip
Speaker 2: clubs and massage parlors, because they are seen as like
Speaker 2: profiting from this thing that men supposedly are supposed to
Speaker 2: get for free. So they're kind of upsetting the natural
Speaker 2: order of things by saying that, you know, like, hey,
Speaker 2: this is a service that I can provide the way
Speaker 2: that a hairstylist might provide a service, and that you know,
Speaker 2: it's upsetting things even more because now men have to
Speaker 2: either earn that or they have to pay for it,
Speaker 2: and that, according to the in cell ideology, goes against
Speaker 2: sort of the natural order of things.
Speaker 1: So it's entitlement essentially.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to use that word. Yes, it
Speaker 2: is very much about male entitlement. I would say the
Speaker 2: entire in cell ideology is based upon the idea of
Speaker 2: mail entitlement.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean this is sort of weird. But when
Speaker 1: you were talking about that of hatred towards sex workers
Speaker 1: and all of that, I was thinking to Jack the Ripper,
Speaker 1: I mean, that is essentially what the notes, if we
Speaker 1: believe everything is the claim is, is this hatred for
Speaker 1: sex workers and so this community I'm sure has gone
Speaker 1: back very very far. Okay, how does the trial go along?
Speaker 1: Does he take the stand, does he stay quiet? What happens?
Speaker 2: I didn't really start following this case as a magazine
Speaker 2: feature until we were almost right at the sentencing part,
Speaker 2: so I didn't go to the early preliminary hearings. I
Speaker 2: think it's possible he might have testified at those, but
Speaker 2: very very minimally. You know, he's a quiet kind of guy.
Speaker 2: I think he's really overwhelmed by the formality of the
Speaker 2: court proceedings, so he just kind of, you know, sat
Speaker 2: in the witness box and kept to himself. Really, the
Speaker 2: defense's argument was just that he was a confused kit
Speaker 2: who didn't have any guidance, and he was left alone
Speaker 2: in the basement, and so the only source of support
Speaker 2: and guidance that he had was the Internet, and you know,
Speaker 2: there's this like predatory in cell community that was just
Speaker 2: waiting there, waiting to pounce on him and kind of
Speaker 2: convert him into their ideology. That it was almost like
Speaker 2: a perfect storm kind of thing. So really their argument
Speaker 2: was that he did not have the sophistication and maturity
Speaker 2: to commit this act the way that you know, like
Speaker 2: an organized terrorist group would have. There was also some
Speaker 2: evidence brought forward that he'd been diagnosed with depression and
Speaker 2: anxiety and possibly something along the autism spectrum. They didn't
Speaker 2: use that really as a defense in terms of his
Speaker 2: motivation for the murder with Search, but they did talk
Speaker 2: a little bit about how sometimes the rigid categorical thinking
Speaker 2: that we see sometimes in people on the autism spectrum
Speaker 2: makes them more susceptible to some of these conspiracy theorists,
Speaker 2: some of these agains really like rigid black or white
Speaker 2: ideologies that you know sometimes we find working on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Okay, so ultimately we have JC testifying and it sounds
Speaker 1: like she was just as brave and scrappy on the
Speaker 1: stand as she was when she was stabbing him or
Speaker 1: nicking him in the back. Is that right? She did
Speaker 1: really well on the stand testifying against him.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought she did well on the stand. She's
Speaker 2: strong and feisty, and I thought she even introduced some
Speaker 2: like very misplaced moments of humor on the stand. But
Speaker 2: I think that just like speaks to her personality, like,
Speaker 2: you know, she's just she's kind of a spitfire.
Speaker 1: Did this shine a light at all on the SPA community,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hoping in a positive light, not a
Speaker 1: negative light. I hope this isn't a you know, you
Speaker 1: were asking for it because you are under this sort
Speaker 1: of cloud of sex work or whatever it is that
Speaker 1: could be frowned upon.
Speaker 2: Well it didn't, And for that I was actually pretty surprised.
Speaker 2: I mean I was surprised to begin with that they
Speaker 2: were going to be pursuing a charge like this for
Speaker 2: a crime that even did happen in a massage parlor,
Speaker 2: just because I feel like, you know, those crimes do
Speaker 2: tend to get swept under the rug a lot. But
Speaker 2: as I was watching the trial unfold, I was really
Speaker 2: impressed with how everybody handled it. I mean, I still
Speaker 2: think there's this idea that if you weren't or spend
Speaker 2: time in some of these underground communities, especially if you're
Speaker 2: a woman, that violence and chaos of this nature is
Speaker 2: at best expected and at worst deserved. People are like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: if you don't want to be subject to this, we'll
Speaker 2: be a good girl. And to be honest, I do
Speaker 2: kind of think if jac and Ashley had been working
Speaker 2: in like a dental clinic or something, maybe the public
Speaker 2: outcry about this would have been much larger. But to
Speaker 2: see how the prosecution laid out their argument and to
Speaker 2: see how Justice Oktar handled this with so much care
Speaker 2: and sensitivity, and then he ultimately said, nobody is deserving
Speaker 2: up its violence. Nothing you could have done would warrant
Speaker 2: violence like this. That was really meaningful to me as
Speaker 2: a journalist, as a woman, and as someone who has
Speaker 2: been part of the massage parlor community.
Speaker 1: Absolutely one thing we neglected to miss, if you think
Speaker 1: that this is important, is what st had etched on
Speaker 1: this sword.
Speaker 2: Of his, on the sword slash dagger that he brought
Speaker 2: with him to the spot. He had etched in an
Speaker 2: acronym thhot, which is sometimes used to refer to women
Speaker 2: that are like perceived to be promiscuous to sex trade
Speaker 2: workers a Sandsford that hoe over there, and it's typically
Speaker 2: used as a derogatory term. So clearly just another indication
Speaker 2: of his intents that this is premeditated and that he
Speaker 2: has some kind of a specific hatred for women who
Speaker 2: are you know, are capitalizing on their bodies and their
Speaker 2: sexuality in this way.
Speaker 1: What ultimately is he convicted of and is serving now?
Speaker 2: Okay, so he pled guilty to murder and attempted murder.
Speaker 2: The terrorism conviction also stuck. So his senace is life
Speaker 2: in prison, but he will be eligible for parole in
Speaker 2: ten years. I mean, it doesn't mean he'll get it,
Speaker 2: but like that is on the table potentially.
Speaker 1: And why was that not taken off if he had
Speaker 1: all three of those charges go through, Why is he
Speaker 1: not just serving life with no possibility of parole?
Speaker 2: Do you know? I don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 2: My guess is that it might have something to do
Speaker 2: with his age. I don't his age. I really don't know,
Speaker 2: Like you know, the judge had some pretty strong words
Speaker 2: to impart about him. He said something like this person
Speaker 2: will need the entire mt of the correctional facility to rehabilitate,
Speaker 2: so you know, lots of I don't know, programming that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: In Canadian prisons. Will there be an effort to rehabilitate him,
Speaker 1: you know, is there is there, especially if he's going
Speaker 1: to be up for parole. Is there going to be
Speaker 1: mental health help or whatever it is that he needs?
Speaker 2: Do you think those things are generally available? But I
Speaker 2: think what it hinges on is that the inmates need
Speaker 2: to consent to that, and so far, you know, certain
Speaker 2: has seemed pretty reluctant to engage in any of those things.
Speaker 2: Another unusual detail about this case was that his defense
Speaker 2: lawyers were trying to get him a lighter sentence under
Speaker 2: the Youth Criminal Justice Act because he was technically youth
Speaker 2: when this happened. And the reason for that was because
Speaker 2: he could then complete sort of this intense rehabilitation program
Speaker 2: in a provincial facility. But that would have required him
Speaker 2: to be in a shared cell in a provincial facility.
Speaker 2: That's just how they're configured, and he didn't want to
Speaker 2: do that. He actually cried on the here's the jail
Speaker 2: was not in story. He cried on the stand because
Speaker 2: he was scared of going to jail. He was scared
Speaker 2: of being in that environment. He thought he'd be targeted.
Speaker 2: So anyway, he's clearly very nervous about his options there.
Speaker 2: So he refused to consent to that rehabilitation program that
Speaker 2: his defense lawyers were trying to get him because he
Speaker 2: didn't want to go into a provincial facility and share
Speaker 2: a self. He wanted to stay in federal custody, in
Speaker 2: which he would have gotten his own cell. So, you know,
Speaker 2: it doesn't sound like he's too interested in any kind
Speaker 2: of programming. He's young. I guess time will tell, but
Speaker 2: that was kind of where we left it back at
Speaker 2: the sentencing.
Speaker 1: Have you gotten a sense for what the reaction has
Speaker 1: been within the in cell community about this crime, because
Speaker 1: I know it was high profile internationally.
Speaker 2: I haven't, to be honest, I really like stayed off
Speaker 2: the in cell forums. I mean, I certainly could have
Speaker 2: used that approach to investigate this piece, but I didn't
Speaker 2: really want to go down that rabbit hole. I feel
Speaker 2: like I've already read enough about the in cell community.
Speaker 2: I didn't actually want to go into the forums or
Speaker 2: hear anything specific about how this case was affecting them
Speaker 2: so I really don't know. I don't know if it
Speaker 2: ended up being a high profile case within that community
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: Do you get the sense that the in cell community
Speaker 1: is growing.
Speaker 2: It's hard to say whether it's growing or whether because
Speaker 2: it just has a name now it's easier to point
Speaker 2: to people, point to institutions and be like, oh, that
Speaker 2: persons an in cell. It's hard to say. I mean,
Speaker 2: it is possible because you know, societal norms are changing
Speaker 2: and there are some people that are very resistant to that,
Speaker 2: and it is possible that it's encouraging more people to,
Speaker 2: you know, push back against some of those things.
Speaker 1: What do you think you learned from doing this story.
Speaker 1: I know that you do a lot of magazine pieces.
Speaker 1: I know that you are encountering lots of stories about
Speaker 1: good things and bad things. What did you take away
Speaker 1: from this?
Speaker 2: I have a little bit mixed feelings about this, to
Speaker 2: be honest. I was really heartened to see how they
Speaker 2: treated this case. You know that this is sort of
Speaker 2: ground zero for testing how our terrorism laws work on
Speaker 2: these kinds of in cell related crimes. And the fact
Speaker 2: that this all started in a massage parlor and instead
Speaker 2: of sweeping that crime under the rug, they wanted to
Speaker 2: pull it front and center. Who knows if cases like
Speaker 2: this will you know, work the same way going forward,
Speaker 2: but at least now there's a precedent for it. Right now,
Speaker 2: there's case laws, so anyone who wants to make a
Speaker 2: similar argument can say, Look, this has already been done.
Speaker 2: It's already been established that this is terrorism, and we
Speaker 2: need to treat it as such. So that's a big
Speaker 2: deal to me. But I mean generally, I will say
Speaker 2: I feel like the case got a little bit, at
Speaker 2: least in sort of the media, a little bit less
Speaker 2: of a profile than I would have liked to see.
Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of lawyers, some who were
Speaker 2: involved in the case and some who weren't, and many
Speaker 2: of them, you know, they would express some surprise that
Speaker 2: the terrorism charges were being put forward in this case.
Speaker 2: And I wasn't sure what to make of that. And
Speaker 2: there was a part of me whether this is you know,
Speaker 2: because of my personal tie to the story, or whether
Speaker 2: this is accurate, I don't know, but there was a
Speaker 2: part of me that wondered, again, if it was just
Speaker 2: like that attitude, like this kind of stuff just happens
Speaker 2: in these circles, and it's not worthy of the kind
Speaker 2: of notoriety, the kind of prosecution that you would get
Speaker 2: if you were just a random person, a random innocent
Speaker 2: person going about your day to day life. I always
Speaker 2: say that I feel like this whole cases just about
Speaker 2: answering this question, which is like who gets to be
Speaker 2: considered a victim of terror?
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
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