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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: The paramedic that's tending to him says, you know what happened,

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Speaker 2: and Seart turns to him and says, I wanted to

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Speaker 2: kill everyone in the building.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. This is a story about

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Speaker 1: a landmark case in Canada from just a few years ago.

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Speaker 1: A teenager attacked two women in a massage parlor in

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Speaker 1: Toronto in twenty twenty two. He killed one and seriously

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Speaker 1: injured the other. When he told investigators why he did it,

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Speaker 1: they settled on trying him for murder and terrorism. Journalist

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Speaker 1: Lana Hall tells me about her piece in Maclean's magazine

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Speaker 1: called the in Cell Terrorist. I had not heard of

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Speaker 1: the in cell community until I started the show, which

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Speaker 1: is about four years old at this point, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I felt like we covered at

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Speaker 1: least two or three of these cases, and I just

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Speaker 1: had to do a lot more digging on it. Tell me,

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Speaker 1: is this sort of a new phenomenon and new? I mean,

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Speaker 1: is this a last decade type of thing.

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Speaker 2: I guess maybe the term is newish. It's maybe something

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Speaker 2: that's you know, come to popularity within the last five years.

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Speaker 2: I don't think the sentiment behind the in cell community

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Speaker 2: is that new. I think it just has a name

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Speaker 2: now and it's sort of found it. It's collective, you know,

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Speaker 2: thanks to the Internet and all these kind of digital

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Speaker 2: methods of communication.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Something interesting I learned in the research of this article

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Speaker 2: was that the term was actually point here in Toronto

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Speaker 2: by a local university student. She was having some trouble

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Speaker 2: finding a date or some kind of a meaningful sexual relationship,

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Speaker 2: and kind of as a joke, she set up this

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Speaker 2: forum that was called Atlanti's Involuntary Celibacy Project or something

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Speaker 2: like that, and it was kind of a joke, kind

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Speaker 2: of a way to connect with the people and chat

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Speaker 2: about the pitfalls of the dating scene. And at the

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Speaker 2: time it was really a support network for people, I think.

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Speaker 2: And eventually she found love. She abandoned the forum and somehow,

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Speaker 2: you know, the horse was already out of the gate,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, and it took on this darker, misogynistic

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Speaker 2: undertone after a while. By the time she discovered that

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Speaker 2: it was too late and it wasn't really something she

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Speaker 2: wanted to be associated with anymore.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what the typical profile is of someone who

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Speaker 1: feels like they belong in this community, who would go

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Speaker 1: on all of these boards and you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: espouse whatever the belief is and then talk about the belief.

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Speaker 2: I don't know really what the profile is in terms

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Speaker 2: of demographics, other than it does tend to mostly be

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Speaker 2: younger men. They have this belief that they are unable

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Speaker 2: to find a relationship, whether that's you know, a romantic

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Speaker 2: relationship or something sexual. There's this pervasive belief that it's

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Speaker 2: because women are more sexually selective. And over time, as

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Speaker 2: women have gained more financial independence, they get to be

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Speaker 2: shoesier about their male partners. And so this means that

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Speaker 2: men that are sort of at the bottom of the

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Speaker 2: food chain, what in the in cell community they often

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Speaker 2: refer to as beta males, that those guys are perpetually

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Speaker 2: getting the short end of the stick, that they you know,

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Speaker 2: they're not getting the kind of female attention they need.

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Speaker 2: This is sort of a state that's been bestowed upon

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Speaker 2: them at birth. There's no way for them to move

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Speaker 2: up the social ladder and to accomplish these things. And

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Speaker 2: they really believe that women hold the blame for that,

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Speaker 2: and that women should be punished for that, in some

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Speaker 2: cases very violently. And so there's a lot of this

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Speaker 2: kind of discourse online talking about, you know, how they

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Speaker 2: feel inferior, how women are the root of this problem,

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Speaker 2: and that something needs to be done about it, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes that something is really catastrophic.

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Speaker 1: When you started digging into this case, specifically for your article,

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Speaker 1: your long form article, what drew you into the case

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Speaker 1: of this spa in Toronto in twenty twenty that became

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Speaker 1: this just awful scene of blood and mayhem.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it probably came to my attention the

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Speaker 2: way it did for most people in Toronto, and that

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Speaker 2: was just through the daily news cycle. It did hit

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Speaker 2: the newspapers and the online outline, and so it came

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Speaker 2: up in my news feed. And when I heard that

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Speaker 2: it happened in a massage parlor, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I wonder what happened. And then when

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Speaker 2: I looked closer at the pictures, I realized I know

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Speaker 2: that spa in particular. And so by this point, I've

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Speaker 2: been working as a full time journalist for a number

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Speaker 2: of years. But the reason the image caught my attention

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Speaker 2: was because before I was a journalist, I also worked

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Speaker 2: in Toronto's underground massage parlor economy. In particular, I worked

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Speaker 2: at a SPA that was probably like a ten minute

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Speaker 2: walk from Crown Spa, which is the location where this

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Speaker 2: crime took place. So then I was kind of following

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Speaker 2: it from these two channels, right, I did have this

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Speaker 2: strong personal connection. I really wanted to know what was

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Speaker 2: going on. And then when I heard about, ultimately what

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Speaker 2: kind of charges were going to be laid in this case,

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Speaker 2: which were pretty unprecedented, I was really surprised and I

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Speaker 2: wanted to know more about that.

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Speaker 1: So take me to this time period twenty twenty Toronto.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is not something I've talked about before.

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Speaker 1: This sort of the I don't know what's the best phrase.

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Speaker 1: Is it a spa that also kind of offers erotic massages?

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Speaker 1: Is that the right thing to say.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of really interchangeable terms. I think it's

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Speaker 2: fair to call it like an erotic massage parlor. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: people call them spas, but in a very casual way,

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Speaker 2: and that's sort of a distinct, Like it's distinct from

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Speaker 2: a place where you might go to get your nails done,

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Speaker 2: or you might go to get like, you know, some

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Speaker 2: kind of a facial treatment or something like that. In Toronto,

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Speaker 2: there are these these businesses. They're called erotic massage parlors.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they're called body or parlors. The way the licensing

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Speaker 2: works in Toronto is that there's a cap on the

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Speaker 2: number of them, so I think they only give out

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Speaker 2: like twenty five licenses or something. So there's a set

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Speaker 2: number of them, and because of the way Zodian regulations

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Speaker 2: work in the city, they're all sort of end up

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Speaker 2: in some of these industrial neighborhoods to the north and

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Speaker 2: the east of the core of the city. So there's

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Speaker 2: this particular neighborhood kind of in the northwest corner of Toronto.

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit cut off from the rest of

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Speaker 2: the city by a major highway, and there's just a

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Speaker 2: sprinkling of kind of random industrial building. There's like an

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Speaker 2: auto body shop, there's a tile shop. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: probably like a Tim Horton somewhere, which is a very

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Speaker 2: Canadian centric coffee chain, and there's a couple of these

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Speaker 2: massage parlors that are scattered around as well. They're very nondescript.

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Speaker 2: They typically don't have you know, visible signage or lighting

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Speaker 2: or anything like that. They're just kind of tucked it

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Speaker 2: in a very discreete fashion. That's kind of the setting

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Speaker 2: for this crime that happened on the morning of February

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Speaker 2: twenty fourth, twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Are these kind of parlors where you would have people

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Speaker 1: investigating trafficking or now I'm trying to figure out the

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Speaker 1: difference between what we would call that kind of parlor

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Speaker 1: here in the United States and what you all might

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Speaker 1: call it in Canada.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that there's an equivalent for this in

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Speaker 2: the States. I know that because sometimes I would ask

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Speaker 2: clients do you have these places in the States, And

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Speaker 2: often they would say know, or they'd say, we do

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Speaker 2: have them, but they're not as well regulated in Toronto.

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Speaker 2: You are if you have a license to be a

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Speaker 2: licensed body rubber. It's the same way you would get

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Speaker 2: a license to be like a taxi driver or a

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Speaker 2: food truck operator or an exotic dancer. If you have

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Speaker 2: that license, you are licensed to give people what is

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Speaker 2: called an erotic massage, which is just a massage that's

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Speaker 2: a little bit more sensual and physical. There aren't supposed

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Speaker 2: to be sexual services being offered at these places.

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Speaker 1: But it is.

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Speaker 2: You know, it is a little bit of a fine line,

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Speaker 2: as I'm sure you can imagine, even just by the title.

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Speaker 2: These are often jobs that are paid in cash, so

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Speaker 2: they tend to attract people that are kind of in

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Speaker 2: a bit of a transitional phase of life, and they

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Speaker 2: do operate a little bit underground because because there is

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Speaker 2: that fine line between erotic massage and sexual acts, they

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Speaker 2: do get a lot of attention from the bylaw officers,

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Speaker 2: from the cops who are often coming around and you know,

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Speaker 2: making sure nothing unto ward why their definition is happening.

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Speaker 2: I do think it's possible that you know, at some

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Speaker 2: of these places you might find some young women who

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Speaker 2: have been trafficked. You might find some young women who

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Speaker 2: are in this business for not the greatest reason. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they're you know, feeding a drug habit or kind of

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Speaker 2: living at the poverty line or something like that. But overwhelmingly,

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people who work at these

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Speaker 2: places they're just women trying to make a better living. Right.

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Speaker 2: They could be students, they could be single parents, they

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Speaker 2: could be you know, burgeoning entrepreneurs. They could be people

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Speaker 2: that are saving up for a trip, or saving up

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Speaker 2: for a car, or trying to pay down some credit

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Speaker 2: card debt or something. So you really do find all

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Speaker 2: kinds of women and some men, I suppose, working in

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Speaker 2: these spaces.

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Speaker 1: Were you in a transitional point if you feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: talking about it kind of? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I had been a journalism student for about maybe

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Speaker 2: a year and a bit. Prior to that, I had

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Speaker 2: dropped out of journalism school temporarily. At the time, I

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Speaker 2: had a part time retail job. And this is like

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Speaker 2: twenty ten, So I think we're still kind of coming

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Speaker 2: out of the recession a little bit, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: haven't fully recovered from that yet, and it's hard to

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Speaker 2: find full time hours in a retail or you know,

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Speaker 2: a customer service kind of setting. So I was really

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Speaker 2: struggling with that, and also I think on some level

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Speaker 2: that sounded kind of boring to me anyway. So I

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Speaker 2: remember just flipping through the back pages of what used

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Speaker 2: to be our alternative newsweekly, which used to have advertisements

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Speaker 2: for like escort services and strippers and massage parlors, and

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Speaker 2: I was just like, I wonder what it would be

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Speaker 2: like to work at one of these places. I think

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Speaker 2: on some level, like I thought it might be a

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Speaker 2: good story, not in the sense that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: write about it, but just you know, I'm a journalist.

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Speaker 2: That's that's how my brain works. I'm in the business

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Speaker 2: at finding good story, to be it in a professional

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Speaker 2: setting or or I guess.

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Speaker 1: Personally life's experiences exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I just said to myself, you know, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to send an email to this one advertisement. We'll see

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Speaker 2: what happens if, you know, if I have second thoughts,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to follow through. And they invited me

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Speaker 2: in for an interview like the next day or something,

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Speaker 2: and then I was like, Okay, well, why don't you

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Speaker 2: just go for an interview and then if that sounds

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable to you, then you don't have to show it

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Speaker 2: for your first day. And then I go to the interview,

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Speaker 2: and then I'm like, Okay, well, if that feels uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: like you know, go to your first day. If that

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Speaker 2: feels uncomfortable, you don't have to keep going. So I

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Speaker 2: was I was sort of just easing myself into this idea,

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Speaker 2: I guess generally. But you know what, it was a

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Speaker 2: great way. I mean, at first it was a great

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Speaker 2: way to make money. I liked the people. Generally. I

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Speaker 2: was intrigued enough, I guess, to keep going. And then,

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Speaker 2: you know, for a whole host of reasons, all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, you know, it's like I'm three years in

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, okay, I guess this is my

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Speaker 2: life now.

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Speaker 1: Now it's come full circle for you. So with this

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Speaker 1: particular story, which I think is so well written, let's

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Speaker 1: start with the victims, because I think that's the most

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Speaker 1: important thing. Set the scene for me for Crown Spaw

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Speaker 1: in general. You've already kind of talked about where these

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Speaker 1: spaws are located in Toronto, but tell me about the

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Speaker 1: people inside. And this was a spa that I know

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Speaker 1: was regulated. Everything was on the up and up, and

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Speaker 1: this had a good reputation. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's a Monday morning, February twenty fourth, twenty twenty. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of a standard morning I think at Crown Spa.

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Speaker 2: You know, at least one client has come in for

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Speaker 2: an appointment. Jc the manager, who's a young woman, I

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Speaker 2: believe in her early thirties. She normally works a front

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Speaker 2: desk in addition to her other duties, you know, handling

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Speaker 2: the phones and reading clients and placing ads and things

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Speaker 2: like that. She is about to go to a dentist

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Speaker 2: appointment and there was supposed to be a receptionist that

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Speaker 2: was going to come in that morning and fill in

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Speaker 2: for her, and that receptionist hasn't shown up. So Jace

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Speaker 2: is on her phone. She's frantically scrolling through the phone

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Speaker 2: trying to get you know, somebody who she thinks knows

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Speaker 2: the business well enough to cover for her just for

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Speaker 2: a few hours. And she settles on a friend of hers,

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Speaker 2: twenty four year old Ashley or Zaga, who I guess Jason,

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Speaker 2: he knows you know, through the business, knows and trusts

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Speaker 2: enough to have her cover that shift for her. She says,

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Speaker 2: you know, can you come in on short notice, just

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Speaker 2: for a few hours, and as she says, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: she takes the bus all the way from the other

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Speaker 2: side of the city basically on short notice, gets to

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Speaker 2: the SPA. It's around lunchtime, maybe, settles in at the

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Speaker 2: friend desk, and Jac heads upstairs to get ready for

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Speaker 2: her appointment.

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Speaker 1: Have there been issues there not that come from the

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Speaker 1: SPA's fault, But have they been targeted by anybody before?

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Speaker 1: Is there controversy at all with this spa?

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Speaker 2: I haven't heard of any controversy regarding this spa. I

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Speaker 2: don't think there's been anything, you know, happening there that's

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Speaker 2: beyond just the normal realm of like wild West behavior,

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Speaker 2: and it sometimes happens in these unregulated labor economies. But

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Speaker 2: I haven't heard of them being targeted or of anything.

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Speaker 2: Certainly nothing of this magnitude happening there previously.

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Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead and set the scene for me about

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Speaker 1: what happens. We've said it's February twenty fourth, twenty twenty Monday.

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Speaker 1: So we've got JC, the manager with a client upstairs.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So there's three there's three levels to this building.

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Speaker 2: There's a basement where there are some treatment rooms. There's

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Speaker 2: the main floor where there is the front desk and

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Speaker 2: some other rooms, and then there's the apartment upstairs, which

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Speaker 2: is where Jac lives.

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Speaker 1: And we have Ashley Arzaga who is at the front

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Speaker 1: desk at this.

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Speaker 2: Point exactly, so Jac's upstairs. She's getting ready for her

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Speaker 2: appointment as she's at the front desk settling in. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: a seventeen year old boy named Ogazon Sert who lives

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Speaker 2: about a fifteen minute walk away in a home with

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Speaker 2: his father and his stepmother, is getting ready for his

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Speaker 2: day in his basement bedroom and he puts on a

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Speaker 2: trench coat, some sunglasses, and he grabs a couple items

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Speaker 2: to put in his pockets. One of those is a

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Speaker 2: stone that sharpens knives, one of them is his identification,

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Speaker 2: and the last item is a seventeen inch sword, so

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Speaker 2: like a short sword or kind of a large egger

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Speaker 2: type weapon. He puts that in his pocket and he

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Speaker 2: writes a note and the note says, long Live the

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Speaker 2: in Cell Rebellion. He tucks that into his pocket before

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Speaker 2: he leaves out the front door. He walks down the street.

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Speaker 2: He walks to the parlor, opens the front door where

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Speaker 2: Ashley is sitting at the front desk, and he begins

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Speaker 2: to stab her with what will later be determined to

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Speaker 2: be like forty two separate stab wounds. Jac's upstairs at

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Speaker 2: this time. She hears some kind of a scuffle downstairs.

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Speaker 2: She goes to check it out and stumbles into what

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Speaker 2: I can only imagine is an absolutely horrific scene. She's

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Speaker 2: lying on the floor in a pool of blood, probably

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Speaker 2: dead by this point, and there's this guy in a

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Speaker 2: trench coat with a machete who then whips around and

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Speaker 2: starts attacking JC, who just minutes ago was consumed by

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Speaker 2: whether she was going to get to her dentist appointment

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Speaker 2: on time. And he's coming at her with the sword.

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Speaker 2: He's screaming for Fanity's at her, telling her to die,

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Speaker 2: calling her a bitch. They fall to the ground and

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Speaker 2: they're struggling for a while. Jace had a her brother

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Speaker 2: in law had been at the apartment with the intention

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Speaker 2: of driving her to the dentist appointment, so he's around

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Speaker 2: and she's screaming for him, and he comes down the

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Speaker 2: stairs and is trying to open the door to the foyer,

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Speaker 2: which is where JC and Sert are struggling on the floor.

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Speaker 2: And he's pushing on the door, trying to open it,

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Speaker 2: but their bodies are blocking it, and so jac says,

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Speaker 2: this spot goes through her head, which is like, I've

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Speaker 2: got to move, I've got to move both of us

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Speaker 2: just a couple inches so he can open the door

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Speaker 2: and get in to help us. And somehow, in the

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Speaker 2: middle of all this struggling, she manages to do that.

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Speaker 2: She manages to wrest the sword from his grasp and

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Speaker 2: stab him in the back.

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Speaker 1: And this poor guy is trying to get in. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, poor j C and Ashley, of course, but

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Speaker 1: this guy is trying to get in to say her

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Speaker 1: his family member, and he cannot get in because they're

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Speaker 1: blocking the door.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like just a really chaotic scene. I

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Speaker 2: feel that must have been really hard for him to

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Speaker 2: hear these things but not understand fully what was going

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Speaker 2: on on the other side of that door. So fortunately,

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Speaker 2: you know, she was able to open it just a

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Speaker 2: little bit. And then you know, shortly after that, Sert

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Speaker 2: stumbles out of the door into the parking lot. He's

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Speaker 2: been stabbed. She's bleeding from several different wounds, and she

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Speaker 2: runs next door to see if the adjoining store will

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Speaker 2: call mine one one for her, And yeah, it just

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Speaker 2: sounds like a really terrifying few minutes. It's hard to

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Speaker 2: imagine that this entire scene took place over just those

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Speaker 2: few minutes because it sounds like so much happened.

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Speaker 1: So it's twenty twenty when this happens, I would expect,

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Speaker 1: like CCTV. Is that a security camera, kind of a

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Speaker 1: normal thing that would have happened at one of these

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Speaker 1: spaws in Canada.

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Speaker 2: So there is CCTV in the inside of the building.

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Speaker 2: So this whole attack was caught on camera. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I did not that. I didn't attend any of the

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Speaker 2: preliminary hearings and that was when it was showed. And

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Speaker 2: I believe that some of the media who was attending

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Speaker 2: they did get to see that footage. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It

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Speaker 2: sounds like it would be something really awful to bear

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Speaker 2: witness too. But ultimately the footage was really what would

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Speaker 2: sunk the case because all of it was caught on camera.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can see this attack unfolding the way

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Speaker 2: that jac said. You can see the attack on Ashley,

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Speaker 2: and you can see like the brutality behind it, so

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Speaker 2: that was, you know, really kind of a life saver

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Speaker 2: I think in terms of getting that first degree murder conviction.

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Speaker 1: In the United States, if that footage had existed in

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Speaker 1: this kind of attack, I feel like it would have

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Speaker 1: gotten leaked somehow and just made its way all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that is sort of the perfect thing for potentially some

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Speaker 1: members of the intell community to pass around everywhere and

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Speaker 1: then people of course be horrified. In general. Did that

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Speaker 1: end up happening in Toronto or no?

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Speaker 2: Not, to my knowledge, I have not. I think that

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Speaker 2: they're probably guarding that pretty tightly. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: generally in Canada, our criminal justice system is protected a

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Speaker 2: little more, I guess, right, Like you guys allow cameras

377
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Speaker 2: in the courtroom, so there's lots of like real time

378
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Speaker 2: footage of these cases happening. We don't allow that in Canada.

379
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Speaker 2: Journalists are allowed to be in the courtroom, but they

380
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Speaker 2: are not allowed to videotape any of that footage. So

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Speaker 2: it may just be a bit of a difference in culture.

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Speaker 2: But you know, thank god, I don't believe that footage

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Speaker 2: has been released, and I hope it stays that way.

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Speaker 1: Good. Well, there are quite a few judges who won't

385
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Speaker 1: allow cameras in their courtroom here, which is good, and

386
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Speaker 1: I think some states that it's just a law you

387
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Speaker 1: can't have cameras. But still I could see some places

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Speaker 1: where it's helpful and then certainly a lot of places

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Speaker 1: where it's hurtful. Okay, So if I set the scene,

390
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Speaker 1: it's Cert in the parking lot at this point, and

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Speaker 1: we've got JC next door trying to get the police.

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Speaker 1: Does he leave? What happens with him in this park?

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Speaker 1: Does he have a car? I forgot how you told

394
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Speaker 1: me he got there?

395
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Speaker 2: Oh? Cert, No, he walked. He walked on foot. What

396
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Speaker 2: I've been able to determine from Jac's testimony is that

397
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Speaker 2: he was a little bit stunned by this entire thing.

398
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Speaker 2: She said that when she stabbed him, he let out

399
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Speaker 2: this huge, melodramatic gas that she thought was like, very

400
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 2: much over the top. I think at some point he

401
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 2: also seemed to have injured his fingers. I don't know

402
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Speaker 2: if that was something that she did to him, or

403
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Speaker 2: if he did that himself or in the struggle, but

404
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 2: she said he was sitting in the parking lot staring

405
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Speaker 2: at his fingers. To be honest, I think It's very

406
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Speaker 2: possible that he himself was also shocked at what was unfolding,

407
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 2: like maybe he even had a weird out of body experience,

408
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Speaker 2: and then he was there. He was waiting in the

409
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Speaker 2: parking lot. JC had at some point run back in.

410
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Speaker 2: She's still in manager mode. Clearly she had run back

411
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Speaker 2: into the spot to lock the door. There was also

412
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Speaker 2: another attendant who had been in the spot in the

413
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Speaker 2: basement with a client, so she ran in to get her.

414
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Speaker 2: She said, leave out the back door, Call nine one.

415
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Speaker 2: I think that JC ultimately ended up running across the streets.

416
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Speaker 2: She didn't want to be close to Sert right. She

417
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Speaker 2: didn't know if he was going to get up and

418
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Speaker 2: do something else, so she ran across the street and

419
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Speaker 2: she was, I think, just kind of waiting there for

420
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Speaker 2: the police and the ambulance to show up.

421
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Speaker 1: So what happens when they do show up, I mean,

422
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Speaker 1: he's still there.

423
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Speaker 2: He's still there. Jac gets taken immediately, I think, to

424
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Speaker 2: trauma hospital to treat her wounds. The paramedics are tending

425
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Speaker 2: to search as well. He's been stabbed, but I don't

426
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Speaker 2: think his injuries were quite as severe as Jacy's. Obviously,

427
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Speaker 2: the paramedic that's tending to him, says you know what happened,

428
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Speaker 2: and Sart turns to him and says, I wanted to

429
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Speaker 2: kill everyone in the building. I'm happy I just got one.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Did they find out why he targeted that particular spa. Yeah.

431
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Speaker 2: The general consensus from what he told police was that

432
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Speaker 2: he just lived in the neighborhood and he a few

433
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Speaker 2: months prior it had occurred to him that there was

434
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Speaker 2: a spa there. He doesn't seem to have a very

435
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: clear understanding of what went on in the spa, like

436
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: he refers to them as being prostitutes. So my guess

437
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 2: is that he was just out walking and he just

438
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: perhaps stumbled up across it. Later, they found some Google

439
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 2: searches on his computer that you know, we're searching for

440
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 2: things like Toronto massage parlor, Canada massage parlor, So maybe

441
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: he was looking generally for a massage parlor and that

442
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: was just the closest one that came up on his

443
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 2: search results.

444
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: Did you say that Ashley was stabbed? Did you say

445
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: forty one times forty two? Wow? I mean that seems

446
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 1: much more angry than someone who is just trying to

447
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: eliminate so called prostitutes. Is that what seems like to

448
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: you when you were reading that description.

449
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: I think so. Yeah, it sounded like what they would

450
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 2: refer to in some circles as overkill.

451
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

452
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: I mean, that's an unthinkable amount of stab wounds and

453
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: like no part of her body was was really left

454
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 2: untouched in that sense. I can't imagine what the scene

455
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: was like. I think it just speaks to the level

456
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: of rage and anger that starts exhibited.

457
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: Before or we find out more about cert Tell me

458
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: about what will become the media coverage here. Is this

459
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: the first big introduction to the in cell community, to

460
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: Toronto or to Canada.

461
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 2: No, actually it's not, And that's what's a little bit surprising.

462
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: Back in twenty eighteen, we had another really high profile

463
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: murder in which a man in his early twenties drove

464
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: a rented van onto the sidewalk outside of subway station

465
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 2: in Toronto and he ended up killing I think eleven people,

466
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: most of them are women. But it was a fairly

467
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: like indiscriminate act. He was kind of just plowing into

468
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: the sidewalk essentially, but he also professed some you know,

469
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: allegiance quote unquote to the in cell community. He left

470
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: some kind of a message on social media shortly before

471
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: the act happened, stating that it was a crime that

472
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 2: was motivated by the in cell community. And that was

473
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: a really big shock when that happened. That made headlines,

474
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: you know, not just here in Canada but everywhere. I

475
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: think for some people that was their first introduction to

476
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: in cell behavior and this in cell ideology. But it

477
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: was interesting because in that case, the prosecutor's office did

478
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 2: not which is like the equivalent of the district attorney's

479
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: office in the US. They didn't attempt to charge him

480
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: with terrorism. The judge in that case determined that he

481
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: was motivated by notoriety, like personal notoriety more than ideology, which,

482
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: as we'll get to you later, is a key component

483
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: of a terrorism offense in Canada. So they didn't opt

484
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: to charge him that way. I mean, he did get

485
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: he did get convicted of like eleven counts of first

486
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 2: degree murder, but terrorism was never on the table for

487
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: whatever reason for that case.

488
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: So JC is hospitalized, but does she fully recover. I

489
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: assume from all of her injuries.

490
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 2: She does have some nerve damage. On that one hand.

491
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,479
Speaker 2: I saw her at the hearings and she looked healthy.

492
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: She's clearly very smart, articulate, you know, resilient person. I

493
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 2: think she's reallyocused on moving on from this the best

494
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: way that she can.

495
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: Did Ashley's family attend or was it just too painful?

496
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: Of sure, she wasn't even meant to be there. That's

497
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: so awful.

498
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: Some of Affitt's family did attend. I believe at least

499
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: one of her sisters, maybe two of her sisters attended,

500
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 2: or just on the last day on the sentencing, they were,

501
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 2: you know, very emotional. It was obviously really hard for

502
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 2: them to be there and to look you know, her

503
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: culler in the space. I can only imagine what that

504
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: must have been like for them. And they also provided

505
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: victim impact statements which were read out by the prosecutors

506
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: at the sentencing as well.

507
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: Well. Take me into Sert's mind as much as you can.

508
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: He is under arrest. He makes this bold statement about

509
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: wanting to kill everybody, but he was happy that he

510
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: just got one. He's taken down. Is there anything else

511
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: that's illuminated about this seventeen year old's life or how

512
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: he got into this ideology to begin with?

513
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as soon as he said that you know,

514
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 2: that triggered the police to look into this more closely.

515
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: So they went into his basement bedroom and they went

516
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: through his belongings and they found some pretty concerning things

517
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: and also painted a pretty concerning picture of just his

518
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: life generally. So this is a seventeen year old boy.

519
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: His parents divorced when he was young. At the time,

520
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: he was living with his father and stepmother, but he

521
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: wasn't going to school. He dropped out of school in

522
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: like the ninth or the tenth grade. He didn't appear

523
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: to be working, didn't really appear to have much in

524
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: terms of structure, you know, whether socially or academically. They

525
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: didn't have friends. It really didn't seem like he had

526
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: much going on at all other than just spending his

527
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: days in the basement being on the internet. I know

528
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: that sounds like kind of a cliche for some of these,

529
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: you know, like maladjusted young people, but that is really

530
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: what the police found when they did a little bit

531
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: deeper into his story. So then they seized his laptop

532
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: and they found that he was active on a number

533
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: of gaming platforms. He was really active on some in

534
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: cell forums and in cell YouTube channels, and it just

535
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: seems like he'd been spiraling deeper and deeper into this

536
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 2: ever since, you know, he left school.

537
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: Ultimately, do you think that one of the common threads

538
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: that we find in the in cell community is a

539
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: feeling of sort of the type of purpose that we

540
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: as a society assigned to having a purpose in life,

541
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: that they lack that career ambition or relate really deep

542
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: relationship ambition or you know, autruism or something like that.

543
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: Is that sort of a thread that you see throughout this.

544
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 2: I want to believe it's that easy. Although to be honest,

545
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: I think that anybody could be an in cell.

546
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: I don't.

547
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: I actually don't think it really discriminates him that way.

548
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: I suspect there are lots of high performing people who

549
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: have jobs and families and hobbies and maybe friends who

550
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: perhaps like do secretly subscribe to some of these ideas

551
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: about you know, the roles that men and women are

552
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: supposed to be playing in society. But in terms of

553
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: like the desperation behind Sertz act, I do think that

554
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: there was something to that, you know, I think if

555
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: he had had some of those alternate ambitions or alternate

556
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 2: activities in his life to give it meaning perhaps those

557
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: would have anchored him in reality a little more.

558
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: So when the Crown prosecutor charges him, and you know,

559
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: we are going down this road of a trial, there's

560
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: some controversy about that that you had sort of alluded

561
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: to tell me the directions that they could have potentially gone.

562
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: But what direction they went to.

563
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: I mean, after the police have collected all this evidence,

564
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: they opted to charge him not with first degree murder

565
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: and attempted murderer, but also with an act of terrorism.

566
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: And they claimed that, you know, his allegiance or his

567
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: dedication to the in cell community constituted something called ideological terrorism.

568
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: But there was just one problem with that, which is

569
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: that that had never been done before in Canada certainly,

570
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: you know, likely anywhere in the world. Nobody had ever

571
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: tried to land a terrorsm conviction based on a crime

572
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: that was known to be affiliated with the in cell movement.

573
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: This is totally unprecedented. I still don't have a clear

574
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: understanding of why they decided to choose that case to

575
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: pursue that. Why now when we you know, we've had

576
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: other examples in the past of perhaps higher profile in

577
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: cell related violence that could have also resulted in those charges.

578
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: I don't know why they chose this particular case for that,

579
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: but it certainly it surprised me on multiple levels when

580
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: I heard.

581
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: That what is the difference in Canada between first degree

582
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: murder and a terrorism act?

583
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: Well, that is a really good question, and that is

584
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: something that came up in some sources that I talked to.

585
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: I talked to some lawyers who weren't affiliated with this

586
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: case just to get their their idea about what this

587
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: kind of a conviction might mean, and what a lot

588
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: of people said was that they weren't actually sure if

589
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: there was a point to adding a terrorism conviction on

590
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: top of the first degree murder conviction, because in Canada

591
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: we don't have the death penalty, So if you are

592
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: convicted of first degree murder, generally what's going to be

593
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: on the table is life in prison with no chance

594
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: of parole for twenty five years. There are other things

595
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: you could add to that, like labeling someone a dangerous

596
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: offender and things that might, you know, sort of impact

597
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: the seriousness of that sentence. But if you're already facing

598
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: that for a first degree in murder charge, you know

599
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 2: you can't you can't like increase that sentence. You can't

600
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: in the States, we sometimes see this happen and what

601
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: it means is the difference between life and prison and

602
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: the death penalty. But we don't even have that option

603
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: in Canada. So some lawyers were like, what is the

604
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: point of this. He's already getting like the worst punishment

605
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: Canada can dole out to its offenders. What would be

606
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: the point of adding this.

607
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if it's setting a precedent, because

608
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: what if JC and Ashley had both survived, then you're

609
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: looking at two counts of attempted murder and he could

610
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: have I don't know what it is in Canada, but

611
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: he could have been out in years or something. If

612
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: you lay in that terrorist offense on top of that,

613
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: maybe that would get him to life for a longer side,

614
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: I just wonder if this is more of like a

615
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: setting a precedent type of thing.

616
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: I think that's possible, and that is something that some

617
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: people did bring up, like it would be more useful,

618
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: ironically in a case where someone was convicted of like

619
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: baslaughter or second devieworder, because then perhaps it could tip

620
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: them into that more serious category.

621
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: Now, what do we get out of search once he's

622
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: in police custoding we know about his background, no structure,

623
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: seemingly lack of purpose he falls into this community. Does

624
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: he talk more about his thought process behind this? Did

625
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: his parents have any suspicions about this?

626
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 2: We know a lot about his parents and involvement. I

627
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: think that they had to be subpoened at one point

628
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: in an early hearing. I was not privy to that hearing,

629
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: but they never attended any of the hearings that I

630
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: was at. His defense lawyer told me that they had

631
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: basically washed their hands of him, So, you know, we

632
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: really don't know what was going on there. I find

633
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: it hard to wrap my head around the idea that

634
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: they had no concerns with him not going to school

635
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: and not working. So I'm really not quite sure what

636
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: the dynamic was there, But I think it's probably safe

637
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: to say it wasn't, you know, healthy and supportive in

638
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: the way that it should have been. What we heard

639
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: from Sert as he talked a little more to the

640
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: police officers is that he'd been planning the attack for months.

641
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: He felt a kinship with the man I was talking

642
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: about who had driven the van into several people in Toronto.

643
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: He felt a kinship with Elliott Roger who it's the

644
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: perpetrator of a pretty high profile in cell related mass

645
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: murder in the States. You know that he really felt

646
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: a kinship with these people who you know, also felt

647
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: like they were wronged by women, and he wanted to

648
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: take some action against it. He was also asked if

649
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: there was a reason that he chose that massage parlor

650
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: or is there's a reason he chose, you know, women

651
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: working in them as parlor business, And he talked a

652
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: little bit about how in the in cell community there's

653
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: like this particular hatred for sex workers or women who

654
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: work in sort of sex work adjacent field like strip

655
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: clubs and massage parlors, because they are seen as like

656
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: profiting from this thing that men supposedly are supposed to

657
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: get for free. So they're kind of upsetting the natural

658
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: order of things by saying that, you know, like, hey,

659
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: this is a service that I can provide the way

660
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: that a hairstylist might provide a service, and that you know,

661
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: it's upsetting things even more because now men have to

662
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: either earn that or they have to pay for it,

663
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: and that, according to the in cell ideology, goes against

664
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: sort of the natural order of things.

665
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: So it's entitlement essentially.

666
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to use that word. Yes, it

667
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: is very much about male entitlement. I would say the

668
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: entire in cell ideology is based upon the idea of

669
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: mail entitlement.

670
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean this is sort of weird. But when

671
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 1: you were talking about that of hatred towards sex workers

672
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: and all of that, I was thinking to Jack the Ripper,

673
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that is essentially what the notes, if we

674
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: believe everything is the claim is, is this hatred for

675
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: sex workers and so this community I'm sure has gone

676
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: back very very far. Okay, how does the trial go along?

677
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: Does he take the stand, does he stay quiet? What happens?

678
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: I didn't really start following this case as a magazine

679
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 2: feature until we were almost right at the sentencing part,

680
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: so I didn't go to the early preliminary hearings. I

681
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: think it's possible he might have testified at those, but

682
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,959
Speaker 2: very very minimally. You know, he's a quiet kind of guy.

683
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: I think he's really overwhelmed by the formality of the

684
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: court proceedings, so he just kind of, you know, sat

685
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: in the witness box and kept to himself. Really, the

686
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: defense's argument was just that he was a confused kit

687
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: who didn't have any guidance, and he was left alone

688
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: in the basement, and so the only source of support

689
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: and guidance that he had was the Internet, and you know,

690
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: there's this like predatory in cell community that was just

691
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: waiting there, waiting to pounce on him and kind of

692
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: convert him into their ideology. That it was almost like

693
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: a perfect storm kind of thing. So really their argument

694
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: was that he did not have the sophistication and maturity

695
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: to commit this act the way that you know, like

696
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: an organized terrorist group would have. There was also some

697
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: evidence brought forward that he'd been diagnosed with depression and

698
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: anxiety and possibly something along the autism spectrum. They didn't

699
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: use that really as a defense in terms of his

700
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: motivation for the murder with Search, but they did talk

701
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: a little bit about how sometimes the rigid categorical thinking

702
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 2: that we see sometimes in people on the autism spectrum

703
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: makes them more susceptible to some of these conspiracy theorists,

704
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: some of these agains really like rigid black or white

705
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: ideologies that you know sometimes we find working on the Internet.

706
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: Okay, so ultimately we have JC testifying and it sounds

707
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: like she was just as brave and scrappy on the

708
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: stand as she was when she was stabbing him or

709
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: nicking him in the back. Is that right? She did

710
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: really well on the stand testifying against him.

711
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought she did well on the stand. She's

712
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: strong and feisty, and I thought she even introduced some

713
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: like very misplaced moments of humor on the stand. But

714
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: I think that just like speaks to her personality, like,

715
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: you know, she's just she's kind of a spitfire.

716
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: Did this shine a light at all on the SPA community,

717
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hoping in a positive light, not a

718
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: negative light. I hope this isn't a you know, you

719
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: were asking for it because you are under this sort

720
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: of cloud of sex work or whatever it is that

721
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: could be frowned upon.

722
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 2: Well it didn't, And for that I was actually pretty surprised.

723
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: I mean I was surprised to begin with that they

724
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: were going to be pursuing a charge like this for

725
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: a crime that even did happen in a massage parlor,

726
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: just because I feel like, you know, those crimes do

727
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: tend to get swept under the rug a lot. But

728
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: as I was watching the trial unfold, I was really

729
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: impressed with how everybody handled it. I mean, I still

730
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: think there's this idea that if you weren't or spend

731
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: time in some of these underground communities, especially if you're

732
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: a woman, that violence and chaos of this nature is

733
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 2: at best expected and at worst deserved. People are like, oh, well,

734
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 2: if you don't want to be subject to this, we'll

735
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: be a good girl. And to be honest, I do

736
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: kind of think if jac and Ashley had been working

737
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: in like a dental clinic or something, maybe the public

738
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 2: outcry about this would have been much larger. But to

739
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 2: see how the prosecution laid out their argument and to

740
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: see how Justice Oktar handled this with so much care

741
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: and sensitivity, and then he ultimately said, nobody is deserving

742
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: up its violence. Nothing you could have done would warrant

743
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: violence like this. That was really meaningful to me as

744
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: a journalist, as a woman, and as someone who has

745
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: been part of the massage parlor community.

746
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely one thing we neglected to miss, if you think

747
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: that this is important, is what st had etched on

748
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: this sword.

749
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 2: Of his, on the sword slash dagger that he brought

750
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: with him to the spot. He had etched in an

751
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: acronym thhot, which is sometimes used to refer to women

752
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 2: that are like perceived to be promiscuous to sex trade

753
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: workers a Sandsford that hoe over there, and it's typically

754
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: used as a derogatory term. So clearly just another indication

755
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 2: of his intents that this is premeditated and that he

756
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 2: has some kind of a specific hatred for women who

757
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: are you know, are capitalizing on their bodies and their

758
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: sexuality in this way.

759
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: What ultimately is he convicted of and is serving now?

760
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so he pled guilty to murder and attempted murder.

761
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 2: The terrorism conviction also stuck. So his senace is life

762
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: in prison, but he will be eligible for parole in

763
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: ten years. I mean, it doesn't mean he'll get it,

764
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: but like that is on the table potentially.

765
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: And why was that not taken off if he had

766
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: all three of those charges go through, Why is he

767
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: not just serving life with no possibility of parole?

768
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: Do you know? I don't know the answer to that.

769
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: My guess is that it might have something to do

770
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: with his age. I don't his age. I really don't know,

771
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 2: Like you know, the judge had some pretty strong words

772
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: to impart about him. He said something like this person

773
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: will need the entire mt of the correctional facility to rehabilitate,

774
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: so you know, lots of I don't know, programming that

775
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 2: kind of stuff.

776
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: In Canadian prisons. Will there be an effort to rehabilitate him,

777
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: you know, is there is there, especially if he's going

778
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: to be up for parole. Is there going to be

779
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: mental health help or whatever it is that he needs?

780
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: Do you think those things are generally available? But I

781
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 2: think what it hinges on is that the inmates need

782
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 2: to consent to that, and so far, you know, certain

783
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: has seemed pretty reluctant to engage in any of those things.

784
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 2: Another unusual detail about this case was that his defense

785
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: lawyers were trying to get him a lighter sentence under

786
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: the Youth Criminal Justice Act because he was technically youth

787
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: when this happened. And the reason for that was because

788
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: he could then complete sort of this intense rehabilitation program

789
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: in a provincial facility. But that would have required him

790
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 2: to be in a shared cell in a provincial facility.

791
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: That's just how they're configured, and he didn't want to

792
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: do that. He actually cried on the here's the jail

793
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: was not in story. He cried on the stand because

794
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: he was scared of going to jail. He was scared

795
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: of being in that environment. He thought he'd be targeted.

796
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: So anyway, he's clearly very nervous about his options there.

797
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: So he refused to consent to that rehabilitation program that

798
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: his defense lawyers were trying to get him because he

799
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: didn't want to go into a provincial facility and share

800
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 2: a self. He wanted to stay in federal custody, in

801
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 2: which he would have gotten his own cell. So, you know,

802
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 2: it doesn't sound like he's too interested in any kind

803
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: of programming. He's young. I guess time will tell, but

804
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: that was kind of where we left it back at

805
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: the sentencing.

806
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: Have you gotten a sense for what the reaction has

807
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: been within the in cell community about this crime, because

808
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: I know it was high profile internationally.

809
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: I haven't, to be honest, I really like stayed off

810
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: the in cell forums. I mean, I certainly could have

811
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 2: used that approach to investigate this piece, but I didn't

812
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: really want to go down that rabbit hole. I feel

813
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: like I've already read enough about the in cell community.

814
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: I didn't actually want to go into the forums or

815
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 2: hear anything specific about how this case was affecting them

816
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: so I really don't know. I don't know if it

817
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: ended up being a high profile case within that community

818
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: or not.

819
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: Do you get the sense that the in cell community

820
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: is growing.

821
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 2: It's hard to say whether it's growing or whether because

822
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: it just has a name now it's easier to point

823
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: to people, point to institutions and be like, oh, that

824
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: persons an in cell. It's hard to say. I mean,

825
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: it is possible because you know, societal norms are changing

826
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 2: and there are some people that are very resistant to that,

827
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: and it is possible that it's encouraging more people to,

828
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, push back against some of those things.

829
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: What do you think you learned from doing this story.

830
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: I know that you do a lot of magazine pieces.

831
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: I know that you are encountering lots of stories about

832
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: good things and bad things. What did you take away

833
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: from this?

834
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: I have a little bit mixed feelings about this, to

835
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: be honest. I was really heartened to see how they

836
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: treated this case. You know that this is sort of

837
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 2: ground zero for testing how our terrorism laws work on

838
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: these kinds of in cell related crimes. And the fact

839
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 2: that this all started in a massage parlor and instead

840
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: of sweeping that crime under the rug, they wanted to

841
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: pull it front and center. Who knows if cases like

842
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 2: this will you know, work the same way going forward,

843
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 2: but at least now there's a precedent for it. Right now,

844
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: there's case laws, so anyone who wants to make a

845
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: similar argument can say, Look, this has already been done.

846
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: It's already been established that this is terrorism, and we

847
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: need to treat it as such. So that's a big

848
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: deal to me. But I mean generally, I will say

849
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: I feel like the case got a little bit, at

850
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 2: least in sort of the media, a little bit less

851
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 2: of a profile than I would have liked to see.

852
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of lawyers, some who were

853
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: involved in the case and some who weren't, and many

854
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 2: of them, you know, they would express some surprise that

855
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: the terrorism charges were being put forward in this case.

856
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: And I wasn't sure what to make of that. And

857
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: there was a part of me whether this is you know,

858
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 2: because of my personal tie to the story, or whether

859
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: this is accurate, I don't know, but there was a

860
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: part of me that wondered, again, if it was just

861
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 2: like that attitude, like this kind of stuff just happens

862
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 2: in these circles, and it's not worthy of the kind

863
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: of notoriety, the kind of prosecution that you would get

864
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 2: if you were just a random person, a random innocent

865
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 2: person going about your day to day life. I always

866
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: say that I feel like this whole cases just about

867
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 2: answering this question, which is like who gets to be

868
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 2: considered a victim of terror?

869
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

870
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

871
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are

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Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

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Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

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Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

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Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

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Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

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Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by

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Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and

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Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcas Casts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold more Wicked and on

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Speaker 1: Facebook at Wicked words pod