WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 74 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.680 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gotta be nothing new here for you. But you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:27.520 can make your own decisions. Garrison started talking about crimes, 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:29.360 and so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:33.560 hold off on president crime at all. That's true. That's true. 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:35.720 James said the word crimes, and James is the one 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.160 that brought up doing crimes. I would never talk about 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.560 doing crimes. Oh, welcome to don't it happened here? Yeah, 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.400 if we never talk about anything illegal. Um with us 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:50.960 today is myself, Garrison, James Stout, and Mia Wong. It's right, 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.199 we are talking about crimes today. Actually, but we're not 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:58.080 doing any crimes, Crisley, because we never would. Yeah, like 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:00.440 for for for example, well, actually I don't I don't 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:02.720 know if it's technically illegal to to talk about jury 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.679 nullification on air. I don't I know. I don't think 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:08.759 they can stop you from saying the words. I think 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.920 they can. I think I think you You don't have 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.240 the rights to do it, but you have the ability. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:16.319 I think is a way a lawyer explained it to me. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:18.760 But they also said I'm not your lawyer before that. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.960 So take that with a great assault. Yeah. Yeah, you 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.440 probably say you shouldn't be describing how to do jury 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:29.199 notification or googling it. If that's in your future, stay 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:36.360 tuned for our upcoming episode, how to yeah your Jury. Yeah, 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:41.640 how to Nullify your jury. That will be our final episode. Okay, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.880 so now we're not talking about jury today. We are 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.880 talking about crime. The people doing the crime in this episode, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.320 shockingly are the cops. So I want to start on 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.800 October twenty eight, twenty sixteen. Some of you can probably 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.200 cast your mind back then, the last week of the 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:03.160 pre Trump era. Yeah yeah, So inside the Captain's office 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.200 at the sheriff station of Rancho, San Diego, one of 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.920 the most expensive ZIP codes in the country, Captain Marco 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.480 Garmo was making a deal. Garmo, along with Giovanni Tilotta, 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.800 who's a licensed San Diego gun dealer, sold a glockhandgun 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.480 an a R fifteen Star rifle and a Smith and 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:24.639 Western handgun to local defense attorney. Because Baje inside Garmo's office, 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.400 Garmo coordinated backdated paperwork to avoid the ten day waiting 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.359 period required by California law for handgun purchases and supplied 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:42.680 Bajaj with misappropriated San Diego Sheriff's Department issued ammunition. Oh fun, yeah, yeah, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.080 so's he's really thriving in his side hustle here, Marco Garmo. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.520 I've used the word misappropriated because that's what the DOJ used. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:55.000 I'm guessing the more vernacular term would be stolen. Here. 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.919 I think I think he's so what do you say issued? 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.560 Is this MO that like like was supposed to be 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.160 given to a coup or is the stuff they had 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.040 an impound? Uh No, I think it's supposed to be 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.639 given to a cop. I think hell yeah, I think 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.960 he's good. I think he's gone into the armory and 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.239 just grabbed a few box set of AMMO and stole them. 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.400 Cops have just turned into the Afghan Army. It's amazing. 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.840 Yeah yeah, yeah, the Ana they've got the what's that 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:23.560 guy who had the like help? He had their like 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.079 night vision on backwards or something that was that was 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:30.560 a Taliban guy. Yeah, interestingly, what they have in the 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.400 compound me, it's another story that maybe we should do 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.160 another day. I also prate that, like the weapons that 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:41.200 are impounded, Jesus Christ, they have some shit like they 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.400 have like a full auto shotgun, like a bunch of 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.120 NFA items and they keep them all for like lab 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.200 testing in theory, like so they can so they can 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.320 be like, oh, this person was shot, what does that 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.160 wound look like? Well, let's get our armory out from 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:58.720 the fucking end shoots and ballistics gel and see if 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.839 that helps us. And it's like that scene from two 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.520 thousand and eight The Dark Night where Christian Bale is 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:10.040 Batman fires a ridiculously loud gun in a sealed bugger, 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.960 absolutely destroying both his and Alfred's hearing for the entire 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.160 rest of the movie. That's why they make so many 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.320 bad choices. Fascinating. Yeah, I didn't know that was a 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:23.040 character called Alfred and Batman. Yeah, they really welshed him 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.440 on the names, because like, Batman is a cool name, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:32.120 the joker cool name. Do you don't know who Alfred? No, 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.560 the one British character in Badman. He is your culture. 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:41.400 When people think of British people, they think of Alfred J. Pennyworths, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.560 not a costume Garrison. Well, so I have a bad 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:50.640 bad news yea. They disgusted that this is the point 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.080 of reference, not one of our many wonderful modern British 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:58.920 role models. Alfred's great. I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, yeah, no, okay. 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.040 He is a working class zero, he was a he 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:06.120 was a wait our butlers are working class right, oh god, 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:14.440 discourse off very quickly. I would say petty bourgeoi. But yeah, 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.080 it's kind of complicated because you're like working directly for 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.480 a billionaire and you're living in the billionaire's house and 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.920 you're living a very upper class life, but you still 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.760 are working. It's kind of what is your relationship to 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.400 the meta production? Though? Oh that this? Wow? Well, but 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.359 it's all service, Like I don't know. I feel like 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:32.040 we have to do a divide here between because I 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.839 think I think the gender division of labor between made 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.960 and butler is very important. I love Howard debating how 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:44.320 if Alfred is based. Yeah, yeah, so you can find 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:49.240 Garrison on Twitter. I right, Okay, so we made to 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:54.960 paragraph too everywhere. In February twenty nineteen, federal agents executed 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.440 a search horrn at the Rancho San Diego chaff station. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.360 Later that year, they arrested Captain Marco Garmo. In twenty 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.640 twenty one, Garmo pleaded guilty to trafficking over one hundred 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.240 guns which were deemed unsafe for civilians. His sentence, I 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.000 shouldn't say civilians because cops are also civilians, right, but 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:16.840 non cops. His sentencing, the judge said Garmo was almost 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:21.480 becoming a mob boss of sorts. What you want to 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.880 strive for as a cherish captain. Garmo admitted to engaging 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.279 in straw purchases, which is buying guns with the intent 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.159 of transferring them to someone else. He also acknowledged tipping 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:33.800 off an illegal marijuana dispensary that was about to be 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:41.359 searched in order based Nothing this guy did is inherently wrong. 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.640 It's the fact that he only did it to certain people, 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.000 and so that was his cousin who earned a marijuana's fensury. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:52.640 He was also engaged in illegal consulting with other dispensaries, 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:57.120 which I don't bulliant. Yeah, I'm getting his consulting emerged 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.520 to being like, Hey, the cops are on their way tomorrow, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.400 maybe stop being a dispensary by the time they arrive. Yeah, 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.440 that seems like a that that that that that that 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.560 that seems like a very classic the cop to take 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:12.840 a cut kind of Yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.320 A lot of the things in this DJ thing are like, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:19.680 really fantastically phrased. So Garmo and his Code A friend 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:24.440 and wail Will Anton also helped paying clients skip the 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.800 waiting list for a difficult to tain concealed carry permit. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.760 As part of this scheme, Anton took a legal cash 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.440 payment to accounty clerk who ensured favorable treatment for his clients. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.520 Garmo might have flown a little too close to the 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.840 sun with this one, but it's not actually that unusual 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.160 for gun laws to have carve outs for rich people, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.720 and often those carve outs don't involve cops stealing AMMO. 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.400 But it's pretty easy if you're wealthy enough to work 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.880 your way around firearms legislation, which is kind of what 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.440 I want to get into today. So while Garmo did 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.920 go to jail for gun trafficking and multiple other crime, 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.920 he was doing the sale of so called off rous 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.920 to firearms by law infolvement officers. In California, it's relatively 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.880 common and there's not much that's been done to prevent 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:13.800 it since Gamo was arrested. So to understand this, I 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.720 think you have to understand California is incredibly complicated firearms laws, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:22.240 which probably requires like an undergraduate degree. But to give 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.800 a brief summary, California introduced its gun roster in two 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.160 thousand and one, and like many of our laws, it 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.120 has its roots in entrenching systemic inequalities. In this case, 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.880 legislators were trying to ban something called a Saturday Night 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.280 Special and people know what people know what that is. No, 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:44.400 it's it's a small, concealable, affordable hanggun. It's like there 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.719 were there were this, there was this, these guns that 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.520 came out in like the eighties and nineties that were 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:54.840 like super small, very cheap, very simple, very concealable and ship. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.000 Well that's the thing, right, So this is really fascinating. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:03.640 So in practice, right, these were at least culturally associated 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.480 with like black communities, right that that's you see them 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.320 in sometimes like certainly like there was a stigmatic reference 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.640 to like a disease guns that is causing violence, and 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.640 we're not going to fucking look at inequality at all, right, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.120 We're just going to ban the guns. Are they shit? 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:21.320 As an interesting question, because California introduces legislation which said 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.839 that handguns had to be dropped safe, so that means 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.480 you can drop them and they can't go off. That 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.480 is generally a desirable feature. And a handgun able to 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.040 fire six hundred rounds without more than six malfunctions and 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.040 have a manual safety device. And later on they added 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.640 another thing that would make the gun only fire when 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.160 it had a magazine inserted. And they put all these 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.040 rules in place, and has said manufacturers had to submit 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.640 guns for testing. All the guns they were going after 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.480 pass the testing, So I guess they're not as shit 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.559 as one the one had suspected, which is kind of 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.880 like that that is the intent and they are laboring 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.760 under that misapprehension. But it seems like these guns, which 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.000 are very cheap, actually pass a testing just fine. So 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.839 if you look at the California roster, so once those 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.600 guns have passed that testing, right, they go on a roster, 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:17.880 and that roster like it's done by skew so like 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.800 by the individual code that's given to the gun, and 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.040 you could look up the California roster. It it's online 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.240 still and like there are hundreds of cheap small hand 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.800 guns that are on it. So they've failed in that regard. 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.600 But they created this kind of bizarre system where most 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.880 manufacturers had to make a California compliant model if they 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.760 wanted to sell in California, right, because it had to 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.760 have a magazine disconnect, which means that the gun won't 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.760 fire without the magazine in, which is not a usual 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.280 thing for semi automatic handguns to have. Like if you 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.920 are outside of California and you have like a normal 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.040 like a glock for instance, it doesn't have that, but 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.480 you would need one that did in California. So that 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.040 means that these guns are going to have a much 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:02.800 much smaller economy of scale, right, They're going to be 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.120 more expensive. Manufacturers also have to pay for the testing 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.199 and submit three models, So what de facto means is 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.280 that fewer guns are available in California. It doesn't really 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.840 become a big issue until twenty thirteen when the DOJ 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.720 in California add a micro stamping requirement. But they added 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.199 it earlier actually, but in twenty thirteen they certified it 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:27.040 was possible for missing. But so is the roster the 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.880 list of guns are allowed to buy, yes, okay, And 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.079 if it doesn't appear on the roster, we're going to 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.480 get into that. You can actually buy it, but you 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.880 can't buy it new from a store, so you can 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.320 buy it used. And there are two ways that these 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.280 used handguns can enter the state, right. One of them 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:48.480 is if you move to the state. So let's say 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:54.760 Garrison moves to LA right, and they bring with horrifying yeah, 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:02.760 just enjoy just just like a Vulcan mini gun. Yeah yeah. 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.920 They bring with them an M one Abrams tank. It's 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:10.280 a balloon shooting gun. Yeah. Every one of the West 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.280 Coast has to have one now, and so it's actually 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.560 different from rifles, SEDDI. But they bring with them pistols, 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.640 and those pistols are not on the California roster. They 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.280 can keep them and they can sell them right to 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.240 a California resident. The other way that these guns can 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.480 enter and be sold is cops are exempt from the roster, right, 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:36.080 so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And when I say cops, 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.040 I am speaking in the broadest possible terms because a 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:43.000 variety of peace officers are exempt, to include employees of 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:49.520 the California State Horse Racing Board. Sometimes park rangers can 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.000 do this, right. I think it depends what you are 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.200 within the park ranger, within the park, and it seems 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.719 to be there is actually a list, right that's in 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.160 the legislation, but it seems to be largely like at 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.480 the discretion of the gun shop. Like in practice they 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.719 could get in trouble. But like I've heard of like 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.880 firefighters and EMTs being able to purchase off roster guns, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:17.000 which is fucking not in the legislation, Like it is 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.480 also kind of funny, but like U, in theory, it 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.480 would depend on what unit you're in, or they could 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.839 contact your like park ranger office and be like, hey, 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.120 this this girl is trying to buy a gun, like 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:30.839 she used us at work, because the idea is that 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.079 they would they would have the most up to date 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.240 weapons to carry at work, right, or that they could 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.079 buy themselves even though they get issued guns. So like 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:39.720 if you need a gun as a cop, you get 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.280 issued a gun, right. So what it means in practice 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.959 is that there's a thriving market and offer us to 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:51.560 firearms but there's also massive price premium. Right, they often 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.640 sell off for two or three times there MSRP, even 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.079 though they're used. And I did a little digging into this, 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.439 and I looked at one particular item, which was a 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.160 P three sixty five, a sig P three sixty five, 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.040 which is a fairly like a popular pistol. Right. But 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:13.360 after twenty thirteen, California doesn't didn't allow any new guns 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.680 to be added to the roster unless they micro stamp 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.920 their bullets. Micro Stamping is a little feature where the 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.640 firing pin of the gun stamps the casing, not the bullet, 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.160 with a little, kind little tiny stamp which is unique 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:27.640 to the gun, right, or it stamps it with the 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.520 serial number of the gun. So in theory, this would 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.920 allow you to pick up the casings at a murder 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:35.840 scene and be like, huh, well they were fired from 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.440 this gun and this gun is read to this person. 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.840 Therefore we got someone to talk to you, right, pick 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:49.400 up the casings. Yeah right, yeah, absolutely, no ways around this. Well, 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.000 I mean emmittively immediately that the one thing I've learned 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.080 over the years is that people are really lazy when 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.360 they're doing crimes, and so true, So true to be 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.800 slightly less lazy and get caughts and you're really that 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.640 is that is Yeah, that is my biggest my biggest 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.920 advice to the illegalists literally think five minutes before ye 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:12.160 yeah yeah yeah. Also, don't tweet your crimes. Yeah, every 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.360 green statements. Yeah yeah, it's one of our mottoes here. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:18.920 You could also just use a revolver, I guess and 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:23.800 it would inject the casings. But um, the because there 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:29.160 are no guns in twenty thirteen, right, the DOJ says 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:31.920 you are not allowed to add a gun to the 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.880 roster unless it micro stamps, and we we've de signed 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.320 that micro stamping as possible. No firearms manufacturer will make 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.840 a gun that micro stamps because other states will require 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.000 all guns to micro stamp once set technology is available. 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.200 So they just don't built it, so they just don't 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.120 do it. Yeah, it is, And it's very funny. It's 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.760 like the car companies just being like, fucking, you know 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.120 what if we put airbags in that bad boy, They're 0:15:58.160 --> 0:15:59.840 going to make us put airbags in all the cars. 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.360 You know. This is the thing that I've run into 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.040 a lot. I think it's really interesting, which is like, okay, 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:11.000 the specific combination of regulatory state and corporations being required 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:12.720 to do a thing gives you a bunch of really 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.880 really weird like outcomes that are like not what you 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.760 would expect when you're writing the legislation, which makes them ineffective, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:20.640 Like I mean, I like the most famous one is 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.560 like the Clean Air Act actually worse into air quality 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.520 for a huge amount of time because they put in 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.400 this exception for like existing coal facilities under the assumption 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.920 that people would just like you know, build new coal 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.200 facilities and thus be like and thus like have better 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.000 to like create that cleaner technology, and no one, no 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.320 one ever did. They just left these old coal facilities 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.800 running or the other one, Like everyone always talks about 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.360 those like those fucking like why why the giant SUVs 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.440 keep getting bigger? And the reason for that is actually, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.760 I mean, it kind of is sort of fascist psychosis, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.480 but like the actual reason for that is Obama era 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.040 pollution controls on cars, right, had to have these fuel 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.200 emission standards. But the larger your car is, like the 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.440 worst fuel emission standards are, so they keep so okay 0:16:58.440 --> 0:16:59.960 in order to get around the fuel emission things, they 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.040 keep making cars make it bigger amazing. Yeah, and this 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:04.879 ship just like I don't know this is this is 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.639 I think a pretty good argument against like against a 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.560 sort of regulatory state being able to contain like capitalism 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.400 doing horriborifying shit. Is like every single time someone tries 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.360 to make it air pollution thing, it just makes it worse. Yeah, 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.080 they just create perverse incentives to do something which is 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.800 like just stupid and polluting as opposed to Yeah, or 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.720 they just don't comply. It was with the microsynything. You're 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:31.680 just like no, like, yeah, simply romote. The specific interaction 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.280 of like people who elevate themselves who make it to 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.600 the California legislature on one hand, and gun companies on 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.000 the other hand, just leads to this complete intransigence where 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.520 like anytime a Laura is written, it is like someone 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.480 has found an end run or a loophole before it 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.400 comes into practice. Do you know what won't illegally smuggle 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.359 illegally smuggle guns into California install them for two to 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.600 three times a retail price? Mare? Is it? All the 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.560 firms that are doing child trafficking? And that's right, the 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:10.000 Washington State Highway Patrol we're back and we're talking about 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.840 cops selling guns for a lot of money in southern California. 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:19.119 So big Marco Garma wasn't the only cop who shares 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:25.440 a life of crime. As it turns out, yeah, yeah, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:33.200 shockingly enough, this practice is pretty common. So a Guardina 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.080 police officer in twenty twenty one was also convicted of 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.280 making forty one illegal offer us to sales in a year, 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.560 and at least six LA officers have been found to 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.560 be engaged in legal firearms transfers, according to twenty twenty 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.520 one LA Times investigation, So that that's eight in a 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.800 single year if you're keeping track. And it's pretty common 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.119 to see people like posting about this, like like if 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.600 you go on to like the California Guns forum, where 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.200 people will be like where they sell guns right where 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.200 they don't. You don't actually sell the guns on the internet, 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.879 so that's illegal. But people will post it and then 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:07.440 say meet me at this gun dealer and we'll do 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.480 the background check. And you'll see people being like, oh, 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:12.520 like m l O, I have a friend to LEO 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.520 and like happen to be selling this gun new in package. 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.600 I bought it to carry it on patrol, but I 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.800 decided I didn't like it, you know, like that's the 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.840 theoretical connad here, right, Oh god, Okay. The thing this 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.720 reminds me of specifically is a very very weird use 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.560 case of like people will magice the gathering tournaments where 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.240 you're not legally allowed to both draw and split the 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.160 prize money. So you have to say this incredibly complicated 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.800 series of sentences where you're like, I want to draw, 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.720 and then new conversation, can we split the prize money? 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:44.800 It's like I have to I have to like say 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.840 this exact series of words in order to make it's 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.159 clear that I'm not doing exactly what I'm doing and 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.280 breaking the law. Yeah, this is how the law works, right, 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.480 Like it always ends up being some kind of like 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:59.320 totalistic magic incantation that you can say, and then the 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.120 thing that they trying to fucking stop obviously no longer 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.880 applies to union can do what you want. Like it's 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:10.320 incredibly assinine. So in mid twenty twenty one, I tried 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.359 to I wanted to get a sense, right and when 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.320 I was doing this of how many of these offer 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.240 uster guns there are in California, to get a sense 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.560 of like exactly how much of a fass. The attempt 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.000 to create this roster has been so I've been going 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.240 after this for a while. But in the middle of 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.840 twenty twenty one, there was an Assembly bill pass called 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.520 Assembly Bill two six nine nine, if you're interested, and 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.879 the bill required the Department of Justice to send a 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.840 letter to owners off off roster weapons, which California officially 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.639 calls unsafe handguns, to remind the people who own the 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.000 mother laws surrounding them and to whom they could transfer them. Right. 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.439 I first became aware of this letter because someone dectarted 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.920 to post it online and that kind of gave me 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.920 an opening where because I can't pira the names of 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:58.960 the people who owned the guns right or even where 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.800 they live, because obviously protect information and it probably should 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.119 be and I don't think that inforation is even actually 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.919 stored by the state. But I can pira the letters 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.480 say sent out. So pira is a public records at request, right, 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.000 it's what people might know as of foyer. And so 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.639 I did that, and it took me more than a 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.960 year and it cost me more than a hundred bucks, 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.280 But eventually I managed to get the DOJ to to 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.399 send me the information which showed that at least at 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:28.760 the time I got it, which is the middle of 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.760 twenty twenty one, four thousand and five hundred and ten 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:36.119 firearms have been obtained by the subsection of the law 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.640 that allows exemptions for police officers. There are some other 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.640 exemptions for like antique collectible firearms as well, so it's 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.920 not clear that all of those were cops. They also 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.000 noted that it had sent two hundred and thirteen thousand, 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.280 eight hundred and four notices to the owners of off 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:55.840 roster weapons, which, yeah, it suggests that if we think 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:01.919 of that, the roster became a serious issue in twenty thirteen, right, 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:07.119 so that suggested about ten thousand, ten thousand weapons a 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:09.480 year since the roster began in two thousand and one 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.720 have entered the state that are off ruster, which kind 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:15.639 of kind of makes the point that it's it's a 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:20.560 rather fasticle attempt at gun control, right, But it still 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:25.159 is that the roster, which I don't think like, you're fine, right, 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.639 you can you can buy a very effective gun in California, 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.520 as we have seen, they're very effective of killing people. 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:34.600 But it does kind of make it a joke that 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.640 if you have enough money or a friend who's a cop, 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.840 then this doesn't apply to you. Right, then you're over 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.480 two hundred thousand of these guns which are supposed to 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:47.320 be like banned in circulation, as long as you're wealthy 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.040 enough to buy them. I tried also to pra a 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.919 if any of these guns have been involved in crime 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:57.080 or murder, and they would tell me that. And what 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.840 it's always worth pointing out that like the cops themselves 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.920 are issued guns which are illegal for civilians to purchase, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:05.800 right or it's not possible for them to purchase them. 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.159 New I should say that offer us to guns are 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.680 issued to the cops, right, So, by definition, some of 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:14.120 these guns have been used in the accidental shooting of bystanders, 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:17.439 shooting of officers by themselves, and shooting of officers by 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.480 other officers that have occurred in California since the Rousta began. 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:23.720 So the sort of by definition of us to guns 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.840 to kill some people. So this isn't actually the only 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:30.920 way that being wealthy can get you around gun laws. 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:33.159 And I want to go a little further east for 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:35.840 my next example. Then I want to go, in fact 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.560 to a little town called Lake Arthur in New Mexico. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:41.560 Then if you are you guys familiar with this part 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:46.200 of the world. Not well, not that I lived in 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.960 New Mexico very very briefly when I was a small child, 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:54.600 but not there. So so I've been using Google street View. 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:58.040 That's my my dive. It appears to be the back 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.880 arshile of nowhere, and in let Garthur, they have one 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.560 cop who it turns out was a volunteer and was 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:09.480 being paid a dollar a year. Aha. Yeah, so this 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:11.840 is this is where the problem starts. This guy is 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.920 called William Norwood. And I'll issue a spoiler here that 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:18.080 William Norwood is no longer a cop in orders the 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:23.240 department exist. And that's because Norwood was running a scam 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:26.920 that took advantage of something called LIOSA. LIOSA is a 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:31.720 Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act and what the Law Enforcement 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:35.880 Officers Safety Act does is allow cops from any state 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:38.680 in the Union to conceal carry a gun in every 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:43.120 state in the Union. So this was a big deal. Yeah, 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:44.760 I think you might be abotuely what this is going. 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.879 This was a big deal before the Supreme Court Brewined decision. Right. 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:51.600 The Brewer decision was the one that significantly reduced the 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:56.680 impediments in between you and getting a concealed carry weapons permit. 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:00.560 I didn't totally remove them, and it did make it 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:03.760 any less expensive, and California needs to be going about 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:07.080 trying to make it even more expensive, which is bullshit, 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:09.280 Like everyone should have the same right, regardless of how 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:14.159 wealthy they are. But if you were covered by LEOSA, right, 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:16.880 if you're a law enforcement officer, you could conceal Carrie anywhere. 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:20.920 So this is very desirable for certain people. One of 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:25.920 those people is Robert Mercer. Do you guys remember Robert Mercer? No? 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:29.680 I do not, Okay, So Murcer is a big time 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:34.800 Donald Trump appreciated. Oh yeah, he's that like super rich guy. Yeah, 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:41.000 the bright Bart guy, the Cambridge Analytica guy. Yeah. Okay, yeah. 0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:44.840 So this guy is rolling in it, and he he was. 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:48.800 He actually hosted like a a like success party soon 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:52.000 after twenty sixteen election. This this guy is definitely pivotal 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:55.560 to the whole Trump scene, right, like like his bank 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:59.320 rolling a bright Bart, Cambrinallytica. He As it turns out, 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:02.120 it's also a cop in this little New Mexico town, 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:06.000 which is kind of weird, right, especially when you consider 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.600 that one hundred and fifty other people are also cops 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:16.000 in this me. Yeah, that's that's one cop for every 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:22.000 two point nine residents. Jesus. Yeah. And turns out they're 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:26.879 probably not doing much copying, but they are doing at 0:26:26.960 --> 0:26:30.600 least a certain amount of volunteering. It's actually unclear how much. 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:37.680 So the Lake Arthur Treasurer with Bloomberg did some prays 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.480 around this, and it turns out that Mercer was what's 0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:45.040 called an honorary member of the police department, but there 0:26:45.119 --> 0:26:47.400 are no records to indicate they actually did any policing. 0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:52.080 But nonetheless he took advantage of LEOSA, right, and that's 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:57.840 carried in all fifty states, so these jurisdictions, there are 0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:01.159 several of them. Another famous and who's taken advantage of 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:06.600 this is a friend of the podcast, Stephen Seagal. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:09.879 Stephen Seagar, who apparently has been a volunteer cop for 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:14.280 a very long time and like actually was doing some 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:18.320 copping according to a reality TV show he made called 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:22.000 Steven Seagal Lawman. You know the thing about that show, 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:26.080 right is it's like, are you gonna come out and 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:30.040 defend the show? Are you pro the show? Really? Here, 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:33.359 here's why they on this show, right, Like, obviously Seagal's 0:27:33.400 --> 0:27:36.040 doing stuff that's really messed up, but it's also unclear 0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:39.119 how much ye what he was doing is than the 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:43.960 average cop. Liket Like, probably what he's doing is worst 0:27:43.960 --> 0:27:46.399 than the average cop, But I don't think it's like 0:27:46.760 --> 0:27:48.439 like I don't I don't think it's as bad as 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:52.560 like like a Chicago Special Operations unit. It's like, I 0:27:52.640 --> 0:27:58.159 can't believe this came out in defense of Steven Seagal. Specifically, 0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:01.200 he has work to do to reach like the true 0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:05.520 upper echelon of like I don't know, shitty cops, Like 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:07.920 this is a man who gave his time freely to 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:12.760 volunteer for Joe Apio. This level of apologism coming from 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:15.639 you right now is simply shocking. I don't know how 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:28.320 to deal with this, this cigol apology, sigologismogism. Yeah, that 0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:30.240 is that is what I was working my way towards, 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:35.040 but I couldn't finish it. Yeah, thank you for delivering 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:37.359 the kuda grass. Yeah, me are coming out with the 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:42.280 some cops to Bastard to take scab. Okay, So what 0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:53.320 what is Carrison's Carrisons deceased? They've've died Okay, So these 0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:56.120 badge factories, like the ones in Lake Arthur and Geermany 0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:58.520 trade influenced cash your connections for a badge and the 0:28:58.640 --> 0:29:01.440 right to carry a gun nation why Mercer and his 0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:04.840 son in lawd. George Wells have supported the town generously 0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:09.360 and so the most kind of the best investigated example 0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:13.160 of this right because Bloomberg went after him and Bloomberger publication, 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:21.800 not Bloomberg the dude. He went down there personally Bloomberg 0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:25.560 he formed an alliance with apparently at one point this 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:28.000 with this police department did to a raid on a methhouse. 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:30.800 And I would love to see like Bloomberg forming alliance 0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:34.800 with the methilers of Lake Arth to fucking take on Murcer. 0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:40.360 So if Bloomberg can take on nine to eleven single handedly, 0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:44.680 surely he can bust up whatever whatever operations going down 0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:49.280 in New Mexico. One hundred and fifty Stephen Seagals, would 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:52.680 you rather fight one Bloomberg size Stephen Seagal? And yet 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:58.320 don't don't do not bother messaging me. I know he 0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:00.640 wasn't the mayor during nine to eleven. That was the joke. 0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:03.240 Don't bother messaging me, I already know than no, no, no, 0:30:04.360 --> 0:30:08.080 I wrote, Okay Garrison's Twitter again, I write a case. 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:13.200 He also famously dropped Staten Island Phil Bloomberg. You guys 0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:17.840 don't know about State nine. Staten Island Phil is a groundhog. 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:20.000 This This will be in a Bastards episode as well, 0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:21.720 So it's a second mentor of Staaten isl and Phil 0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:24.520 for some people. Staten Island Phil is a groundhog similar 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:29.080 to Puck's attorney Phil. Yeah, but he lives in Staten 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:32.840 Island and that's fortunately. Yeah, we would we say that 0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:39.080 a second second. Pretty pretty disgusting take from me anti 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:44.560 Staten Island this way, this is why MEA gets canceled episode. Yeah, 0:30:44.640 --> 0:30:46.600 going back the time and getting rid of the Yankees 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:50.800 hings of the state. Sure yeah yeah. Unfortunately, build a 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:55.800 Blasio dropped the groundhog on its head and it died. Yeah, 0:30:56.360 --> 0:31:01.960 build really build a Blazio the groundhog. It's reduced popularity. 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:05.760 Everyone who's been the mayor of New York is a 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:10.520 piece of shape, unhinged. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.160 like fucking the current mayor just what lked TV to 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:17.280 Tay and talked about how he has this magic smudge 0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:25.040 that yes, so that he could absorb despair and ring 0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:31.040 the despair. What the I'm so sick? The only thing 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.360 isolated New York was does the whole like there shouldn't 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:34.960 be any separation of church and say that is so 0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:43.000 much funnier. He's doing a sham wow for sad. Oh 0:31:43.480 --> 0:31:46.440 what a place, what a town? All right. So, if 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:48.960 you're wondering how much it costs for Mercer and his 0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:53.320 son in law to carry downs everywhere, they paid at 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:59.040 least ninety three thousand to set up this thing called 0:31:59.080 --> 0:32:04.200 the South East New Mexico Police Reserve Foundation, which you 0:32:04.280 --> 0:32:08.640 know is doing the valuable work of supporting reserve cops 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:12.240 in Southeast New Mexico because they are the thin blue 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:15.520 line between us and people not being able to buy 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:19.040 concealed carry permits in all fifty states. I guess under 0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:21.280 its bylaws of its half the foundation's net jews were 0:32:21.280 --> 0:32:25.120 required to be paid to police departments whose reservists were 0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:28.120 members of the foundation the time of its founding. All 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:32.800 of the members were Like Arthur reservists, So just a 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:36.480 good public public benefit. Probably just money going around in circles. 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:39.120 He also paid for Lake Arthur officers to get SWAT 0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:42.320 training in Vegas again, there is only one full time 0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:46.440 cop and he's a volunteer. So some of the lads 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:49.000 went to Vegas, I guess, and this was a donation 0:32:49.120 --> 0:32:53.920 that was probably tax deductible. The way that this came 0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:57.880 out is when a quote unquote firearms expert from North 0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:00.440 Carolina got drunk and shot his b they're in law 0:33:00.520 --> 0:33:05.280 in the leg and why were you carrying bro like 0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:11.040 you're a cop? And yeah, from their things began to unwind. 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:13.440 A lot of the other clients for this place are 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:18.920 people like bodyguards, and they were a client's cops, volunteer officers, 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:23.080 I should say. They're people who do close protection for 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:28.200 wealthy folks, right, and carry guns as part of that work. 0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:31.479 And I'm guessing it's their employers who are making these 0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:35.040 significant donations to like Arthur that probably allowed these people 0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:37.440 to reserve officers, which allowed them to carry in all 0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:39.680 fifty states, which in turn allowed them to protect these 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:44.840 wealthy people. Right. So it's another and like it's important 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:49.720 to understand that like New York, for instance, declined before 0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:52.120 this was before the bruined decision, I can still carry 0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:54.960 permit applicant from like an FBI informant who had taken 0:33:55.000 --> 0:33:57.720 down a biker gang. They were like, no, you don't 0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:00.800 need to carry a gun. Like it was almost impossible 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:03.320 for people, even if they were like helping the cops, 0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:06.520 to get concealed carry permits in some parts of the 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:09.759 United States and in California was very hard. Lots of 0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:13.400 places before Bruin, Like, I think, what's it, Nancy Pelosi 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:16.239 had a concealed carry permit of Finstein, this is the 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:18.440 whole thing, Okay, so this was this was Finestein that 0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:21.560 One of the other scamps for this is you can 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:24.959 get deputized as a federal marshal. There's like a bunch 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:27.200 like I like Finestein's rumored who have done there's like 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.279 a bunch of like every like a bunch of sort 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.360 of like California like Congress people have done this that 0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:33.719 like they get they get deputizes marshals and so they 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:39.560 can do this shit. Yeah, incredible stuff. Yeah, it's so 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:41.840 I guess what I want to come back to is 0:34:42.120 --> 0:34:45.399 like all of these laws, right, all of these gun 0:34:45.520 --> 0:34:50.600 control laws and are circumventable if you have enough money. Right, 0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:53.080 So if you want a nice brand new gun that 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:55.960 doesn't mic Ris damp, it doesn't have the it doesn't 0:34:55.960 --> 0:35:00.239 have the magazine disconnect. And like modern the modern Harry 0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:01.800 guns especially, you're a lot nicer than they were in 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.320 twenty thirteen. Right, They're smaller, they have a higher capacity. 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:07.239 You can put a little red dot site on them 0:35:07.280 --> 0:35:09.880 if you want to. And if you want one of 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:12.799 those things, you can have it in California as long 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:15.200 as you're rich and if you're If you're not, then 0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:18.720 you can't. The same applies with this fifty state carry 0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:21.919 right if you want to carry a gun all around 0:35:21.920 --> 0:35:25.000 the country, and even now with Bruin, states are not 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:28.560 required to recognize each other's concealed carry permits. Right, So 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:32.120 I have a concealed Harry permit in California. It's not 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:35.680 recognized by any other states because California doesn't recognize any 0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:40.040 other states carry permits. So I can apply for one Arizona. 0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:42.719 That costs me more money. But if you want to 0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:44.400 carry in all fifty states, you can just make this 0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:49.120 donation to the corps. Right, And you can almost all 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:51.399 of these things, right. These are the only examples Mere 0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:56.120 cited the federal marshal thing. Another one is the NFA right, 0:35:56.160 --> 0:36:01.160 the National Firearms Act YEAH Act, which like, essentially, it's 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.400 not illegal to have a suppress there. It's not illegal 0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:06.360 to have a short barreled rifle. It's not illegal to 0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:09.120 have a machine gun. Actually, you just have to spend 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:12.520 a shit ton of money to get one, which a 0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:15.040 mercer has a collection of machine guns. I guess, so 0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:19.359 all of these things. Yeah, it's great, it's fine. It's 0:36:19.400 --> 0:36:20.960 it's great that we live in a country with with 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:23.719 two tiers of rights for people. Those are those those 0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:25.800 machine guns are totally going to be used for normal, 0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:31.240 completely normal things in twenty years. Yeah. Yeah, a totally 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:34.160 normal guy who were using for normal stuff and just 0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:36.680 I'm sure like to make holes in paper with his friends. 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:39.680 And it's not problematic at all that to be as 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:41.239 rich as this guy is, you have to be a 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:43.759 problematic dude. And it maybe those are the people who 0:36:43.800 --> 0:36:48.640 shouldn't be having guns, yeah, but instead it's it's it's 0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:51.160 going to be poor people who can't be having guns. 0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:54.400 And I think, regardless of what you think, and it's 0:36:54.440 --> 0:36:57.680 perfectly reasonable to think that there should be fewer guns 0:36:57.840 --> 0:37:01.160 in this country. It's it's perfectly reasonable to leave that. 0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:03.800 And I think, like it's perfectly reasonable to think what 0:37:03.920 --> 0:37:05.759 the fuck should we do about the fact that kids 0:37:05.840 --> 0:37:09.120 get shot in schools. That's not an unreasonable starts at all. 0:37:09.200 --> 0:37:12.279 But if the way around it is saying, well, only 0:37:12.400 --> 0:37:14.239 rich people get to shoot people, then that that's not 0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:18.440 really a solution. It's just kind of the appearance of one. 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:20.759 And I don't think any of us suddenly, if we 0:37:21.120 --> 0:37:23.960 were on the left, should should really support that. Yeah, 0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:28.600 that's where we are in California, which is great. Yeah. 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:32.640 So that's about all we've got on this. If people 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:36.279 are interested in seeing more about either the Mercer case 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:39.480 or the public records I have, we'll put them all 0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.040 up on our sources page. You can find our sources 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:44.960 page on there could Happen Here website, and we put 0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.120 all our sorts out there for all our episodes. So yeah, 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:50.200 go check that out. Anything else to finish off with, guys? 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:58.520 The cops having guns, bad cops being cops, bad cops? Yeah? 0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:01.920 Oh well, what about Stephen Cigar I made. This is 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:06.000 a dramatic change of form from your earlier start. I only, 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:09.320 I only ever argued that he was slightly more violent 0:38:09.480 --> 0:38:13.840 than a normal cup. That was the extent of my argument. 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:16.719 He is only slightly more violent than a regular cup. 0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:22.360 She is flip flopping on the some some cops issue. Again, 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.520 you can send me your opinions on the police. She's 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:44.040 on Twitter at I write Okay, hello and welcome to 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:46.760 it could happen here once again? Who sit by myself 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:50.879 Andrew as we talk about whatever. So we have two 0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:55.400 special guests, Sprout and Sherry Anne from the Black Flow Collective, 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:57.759 and they has talked to us about the dicought me 0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:01.880 between Uban and rural plats organizing. I mean, as we 0:39:01.920 --> 0:39:04.920 can all recognize, in this day and age, being plicitly 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:09.480 active is incredibly important. There are a lot of vulnerabilities 0:39:09.600 --> 0:39:13.440 that we are all facing on the intersection of systems, 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:17.239 and we are looking for weez to get out, but 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.239 it could be difficult to naviate, especially when you don't 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:24.080 know exactly where to begin. That's part of the focus 0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.200 of my channel and it's also something that these folks 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.520 are here to talk to us about. But before we 0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:32.680 delve too deeply into the meat to that discussion, let's 0:39:32.719 --> 0:39:36.200 begin with a quick introduction. You know, who is Black 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:38.960 Flow Collective, How did you all begin and what are 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:42.880 some of your goals as a group. Hey, this is 0:39:43.000 --> 0:39:47.960 Sprout and We got started organizing with the Black Flower 0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:54.200 Collective through previous organizing projects here in Aberdeen, Washington, such 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:57.480 as the Chehala Server Mutual Aid network. That collective got 0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:01.160 started after the Black Lives a matter of rebellion in 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:05.360 so called Seattle and was started by feeding the movement 0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:09.040 out there in Capitol Hill and Chaz and then brought 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:12.400 that organizing effort back to the community to start a 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:16.480 food and out bombs here in town. Through those meetings 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:19.920 and relationships that we formed, we got to know the 0:40:20.040 --> 0:40:23.640 local homeless in town and started getting to know their 0:40:23.719 --> 0:40:26.200 needs as we tried to fill them with our mutual 0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:32.360 aid efforts. And out of those conversations over meals, we 0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:36.399 learned that one of the biggest needs was some sort 0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:40.360 of home base where people like us trying to support 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:44.560 the community could come together and cook meals together and 0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:47.759 serve them in a collective area. Yeah, having a safe 0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:51.399 place to be able to just cook food and plan 0:40:51.560 --> 0:40:56.200 other types of organizations or collectives is imperative because we 0:40:56.480 --> 0:41:00.880 faced a lot of backlash from the reactionary politics around 0:41:00.920 --> 0:41:04.279 our town being in the kind of the heart of 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.400 trump Land, and the type of people that show up 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:10.600 in the big city protest to mow people down with 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:14.600 their trucks and whatnot right and how has that affected 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:20.080 your old reach efforts. What'd you see? Thankfully not too harshly, 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:24.000 but we've definitely had some scary situations. There was one 0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:28.239 time at the homeless camp we were told about by 0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:31.439 the campers there where somebody had tried to like run 0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:34.920 down a tent that somebody was sleeping sleeping in. They 0:41:35.000 --> 0:41:38.520 may just like jump out at the like like you know, 0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:41.160 before they got hit, and they jumped out of the 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:43.600 truck and was like waving of a like a police 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:46.680 baton or some sort of like stick or something or 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:50.359 something around threatening people. Somebody got like a bigger stick, 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:52.680 which prompted them to get in their car and start 0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:55.080 waving a pull out a pistol and start waving that 0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:58.640 around before they ended up driving off. Yeah, sometimes when 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:01.120 we get new volunteers, there can be a bit of 0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:04.080 hesitance from people to like you know, take food or 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:08.520 supplies because there's a bit of a relationship that needs 0:42:08.600 --> 0:42:12.719 forming there of trust because of those actions of right 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:14.880 wing actors in town. So it's kind of like, you know, 0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:17.120 what is why you're out, you're feeding, So there's a 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:20.279 bit of hesitance there, but once they realize they're with 0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:24.800 our group, we've established enough of a reputation that you know, 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:27.680 that name drop is usually enough to to re establish 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:30.560 that trust, right, but it's good that you'll love somewhat 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:34.960 established yourselves, you know, locally and builds up a reputation. 0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:37.279 Would you see that that has been one of your 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:39.600 media goals as a group, to build that trust in 0:42:40.040 --> 0:42:43.800 the community and where you'll see that trust go in 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:47.240 from where it is now. I've always seen that personally 0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:51.600 as our only asset. We don't have a lot of money. Obviously, 0:42:51.680 --> 0:42:54.200 we're not funded by anyone, so all we really have 0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:58.120 is our reputation in the in the community and in 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:01.320 the wider community. Our reputation has led to some of 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:06.120 that backlash that Sharia was talking about, but within the 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:10.600 actual on housed community, you know, we have a reputation 0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:14.400 of doing whatever we can to help people and always 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:19.840 showing up consistently and you know, always being willing to 0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:22.720 go the extra mile when someone needs something in crisis. 0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:28.200 That's fantastic. That's fantastic. So having had some experience with 0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:34.520 like you mentioned, working in the various movements that were 0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:38.840 happening in twenty twenty. What would you see some of 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:43.520 the media differences that you've noticed between organizing in media 0:43:43.600 --> 0:43:49.200 cities and in uban areas compared to rural posical organizing. Well, 0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:55.440 I'd say the majority of the issues we've noticed depend 0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:58.759 on the material conditions of the town that we're in. 0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:02.719 Being a small and rural area, there's a lot more 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:07.239 property here, and so those material conditions lead to a 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:13.600 lot of differences between urban and rural areas. I found 0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:18.440 before come into the area, I was involved with Occupy 0:44:18.520 --> 0:44:22.680 Oakland back in the day, so I had a bit 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:27.360 more of a running with the larger city, larger cities 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:30.919 way of doing things. And what would you share in Well, 0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:33.799 I've grown up here in this town my whole life 0:44:33.840 --> 0:44:36.680 and have a really left outside of it all too much. 0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:41.000 This type of organizing is always uff that I heard about, 0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:45.360 more so through rumors than anything else. Soursus actually seeing 0:44:45.440 --> 0:44:48.799 people on the ground and doing things. Once we got 0:44:48.840 --> 0:44:56.000 our food not bombs chapters started during twenty twenty, it 0:44:56.440 --> 0:44:58.680 opened kind of just a new a new world for 0:44:59.160 --> 0:45:03.120 not just myself, a lot of people around here. Right. So, 0:45:03.280 --> 0:45:08.080 one major difference that we've noticed that is the dichotomy 0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:13.840 of electoral politics in the town. Most of the opposition 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:18.200 that we've faced has not been from the city but 0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:23.680 from grassroots initiatives, and so some of those people over 0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:28.000 the course of the last two years have taken positions 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:33.120 on city council, but the police that they control are 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:38.759 still demonstrate an unwillingness to attack their own community in 0:45:38.840 --> 0:45:43.000 the way that far right politicians would want them to. Yeah, 0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:46.440 so take like the police that show up and the 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.600 like big city protests and whatnot. They'll bring in all 0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:53.320 police stations from all surrounding areas, people who aren't familiar 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:56.799 with the community, who you know, it's just a job 0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:02.600 to them, which helps sever that they're connectioned that that area, 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:05.680 while here it's the same people dealing with the same 0:46:05.760 --> 0:46:10.000 people every day. And in the minds of police, it 0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:13.239 does create create like a sense of community in their 0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:16.359 mind that makes them a little more reluctant to use 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:21.680 the type of violent force that we see in in 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.160 the bigger cities. And it's not to say that force 0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:27.880 isn't present and doesn't happen here, but it definitely doesn't 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:33.040 happen on the frequency. If I could run back a 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:35.360 second by way this is me. I'm also on this episode. 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:37.719 Um yeah, if I could, if I could walk back 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:39.520 a second, ask or something. When when when you say 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:43.040 that most of the resistance to what you've been doing 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:45.680 is from grassroots movements, is that like, like, are you 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:49.120 talking about like sort of grassroots like right wing political movements. 0:46:49.120 --> 0:46:53.880 Are you talking about sort of NGOs opposing you or no? Like, 0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:57.200 we have a local grassroots right wing initiative in town 0:46:57.280 --> 0:47:02.360 that's been the main breadth of our our little groups 0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:06.040 opposition and they have, like I said, they have run 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:09.480 and won a few city council seats since then. But 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:11.960 it started as a grassroots you know, clean up the 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:15.480 trash sort of campaign. Yeah. Yeah, you could still find 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:20.279 their page on Facebook. It's a save our Aberdeen, Oh God, 0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:25.000 save our Aberdeen please soap and they got like little 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:27.560 soap bubbles and whatnot, and they're here to clean up 0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:31.719 the city streets. Said, Oh boy, I don't think they're 0:47:31.719 --> 0:47:35.200 talking about the trash, not trash as we would define it. Yeah, 0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:37.719 so sort of right, So this is a place where 0:47:37.760 --> 0:47:40.799 sort of like right wing like anti homeless stuff has 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:44.879 been has been their sort of main way to build organization. Yeah, 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.040 it's a. It's a huge I mean, I don't really 0:47:48.080 --> 0:47:52.200 even know Sherry, And like, what other talking points do 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:55.560 they have other than the homeless. Everything centers around the homeless, 0:47:56.320 --> 0:47:58.279 Even stuff that has to do with like businesses in 0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:02.600 town and local economic that gets blamed on the homeless. 0:48:02.680 --> 0:48:04.920 You know, everything gets blamed on the homeless. So it 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:08.200 really all goes back to that. Yeah, they are the 0:48:08.320 --> 0:48:14.279 scapegoat for every problem that the city council faces, or 0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:16.840 not just the city council, but businesses. You run a 0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:20.360 shitty business, it's it's the homeless's fault. I don't have 0:48:20.440 --> 0:48:22.160 customers say it has nothing to do with the fact 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:25.480 that I haven't sold anything in years and this is 0:48:25.560 --> 0:48:27.560 just a hobby shop for me because I got a 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:32.280 fat inheritance. But yeah, I'm talking about you all that glitters. 0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:39.279 Oh we call the names no, so you speak. You 0:48:39.360 --> 0:48:43.960 spoke about how this um, this grassers right wing movement 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.879 has picked up some steam and wanted some seats into 0:48:47.920 --> 0:48:54.400 city cone. Soum. But one thing I recognize about grassroots 0:48:54.480 --> 0:48:58.600 movements is that they tend to have to sort of 0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:04.560 balance their goals with the trust they need to build 0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:08.880 with the broader public, with the perception that the public 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:10.720 has of them, and how are they trying to shape 0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:16.360 that perception. So how would you see that the public 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:24.760 of Aberdeen views the right wing initiatives the Soup movement 0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:28.560 as your reference in And how do you think that 0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:34.160 the of tentative view Black fol collective. Well, I think 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:41.360 a lot of people feel scared to voice their opinions 0:49:41.480 --> 0:49:44.000 if they're on the left in town. But we do 0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:46.360 get a lot of support for the mutual aid that 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:53.200 we do the the base of the other The right 0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:59.600 wing movement in town is pretty strong, and you know, 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:01.360 I don't see them drawing in a whole lot of 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:06.560 new people because of their extreme nature and their tendency 0:50:06.600 --> 0:50:10.959 towards conspiracies, but they do have quite a substantial base 0:50:11.120 --> 0:50:14.759 that whatever they say, they're gonna they're gonna agree with 0:50:14.880 --> 0:50:18.719 and they're gonna go along with. Take for example, like 0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:23.239 here about a year or two ago, um, I think 0:50:23.280 --> 0:50:26.920 it was November twenty twenty one or augustum, there was 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:30.719 a big anti tran trans rally outside of a Star 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:35.080 Wars shop here in town that yeah, they had to 0:50:35.320 --> 0:50:37.160 bring in a bunch of proud boys from you know, 0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:40.799 out of town and the like filled their numbers from outside, 0:50:41.719 --> 0:50:47.440 you know, with outside help and whatnot, while chanting about 0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:50.960 how Antifa was coming from Seattle to burn the shop 0:50:51.040 --> 0:50:53.320 down and kill the shop owner and all this and 0:50:54.000 --> 0:50:56.000 all the stuff that they had the guy during the 0:50:56.040 --> 0:50:59.759 whole protest. They gave them like a bulletproof vest that 0:51:00.000 --> 0:51:02.840 he's like walking around. Did they brought Matt Walsh the 0:51:02.920 --> 0:51:10.440 fucking town? It was a mess? Wow. Yeah. It's really 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:15.520 a classic example of pot meat cattle with a lot 0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:20.200 of their metric. In my experience, I think the majority 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:24.279 of the public though, does care about the issues that 0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:28.360 the homeless are facing and the fallout issues from that, 0:51:30.120 --> 0:51:32.040 but they kind of it's kind of this tug back 0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:35.440 and forth between us telling them what's really going on 0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.960 on the streets and the stories of people down at 0:51:39.040 --> 0:51:42.800 camp and this other more right wing tendency to just 0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:45.359 blame things on the homeless and take the simple route 0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:49.120 of saying if we just get rid of these homeless people, 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:53.680 then our problems will be solved, and local efforts to 0:51:54.760 --> 0:52:01.600 gentrify the area with the influx of Terry, a right 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:06.720 wing capitalist who's brought up like sixty properties in town recently, 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:12.440 and as well as just the local media landscape in 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:15.239 town has a right wing tinge to it. I mean 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:17.680 where we're at, everything has a right wing tinge to it. 0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:23.280 But so it's hard because there's not a lot of voices. 0:52:23.400 --> 0:52:25.680 Even though there is a lot of sentiment of caring 0:52:25.760 --> 0:52:27.600 about the homeless, there's not a lot of voices that 0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:29.759 are actually telling the truth of what's going on on 0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:32.440 the streets. And so when you get all of the 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:36.399 lies and bullshit coming from the police and city hall 0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:40.719 and just being reported verbatim by the papers in town, 0:52:41.680 --> 0:52:47.680 it leads to a lot of people forming conclusions based 0:52:47.760 --> 0:52:51.120 on faulty facts, and so they might think, oh, the 0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:53.160 homeless did this, the homeless did that, And we go 0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:56.520 into the comment sections every time and push back and say, 0:52:56.800 --> 0:53:01.120 you know, actually this is what happened. And it's actually 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:02.880 a lot of times that we get people, you know, 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:04.759 opening their eyes and saying, oh, I didn't know that. 0:53:05.360 --> 0:53:10.200 You know, it's not always just the standard dig your 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:12.600 heels and sort of thing that you see on social media. 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:16.640 Because it is a sort of smaller town, right, everyone 0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:20.160 kind of knows everybody. Yeah, there's a bit more accountability 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:24.120 in that sense. If you're going to spout off online 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:29.480 it's you know, it's likely and the grocery line after stuff. 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:32.680 Not only that, but it makes like for organizing a 0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:37.839 general um and nonimidity a lot different of a um 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:41.560 of a tactic in how in how you use it, 0:53:41.600 --> 0:53:45.040 because like say in the big city, you're constantly surrounded 0:53:45.200 --> 0:53:50.280 by UM security cameras everywhere you go. You're constantly being monitored, 0:53:50.360 --> 0:53:53.120 watched or whatnot. But it's a lot easier just disappear 0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:57.000 in the crowd, just another face the you know the other. 0:53:57.120 --> 0:54:00.400 Like you can go out spray paint ditch got a 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:04.400 big deal in place like here in Aberdeen for example, 0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:10.040 But like I could mask up and do everything, um, 0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:13.160 you know I can. But if I get known in 0:54:13.200 --> 0:54:15.200 any kind of sense of way by go out and 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:17.000 you know, spray paint a wall, it's like, oh, there 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:23.759 goes Sherry and you know, spray painted walls again. And 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:26.960 once once you are docks are identified, it's really hard 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:31.200 to undo that and just sort of renonymize yourself. So 0:54:31.400 --> 0:54:36.000 we've taken an anonymity and our security in that aspect 0:54:36.120 --> 0:54:38.720 very seriously from the get go. A couple of people 0:54:38.840 --> 0:54:43.120 in our organization who didn't have faced, you know, public 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:47.120 harassment and stocking. So yeah, it is a big deal. 0:54:47.400 --> 0:54:51.719 So you've managed to maintain a level of anonymity despite 0:54:51.960 --> 0:54:56.640 elder jefflets in a small town. Yes, well, to a 0:54:56.760 --> 0:54:59.680 large degree. To a large degree. Okay, there's different people 0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:02.160 in our group. You know, it's not like our group 0:55:02.200 --> 0:55:04.799 has rules about it. So some people use their real names, 0:55:04.840 --> 0:55:08.520 some people don't. But those who are concerned about it 0:55:08.560 --> 0:55:12.520 have been able to although it's it's difficult, and you 0:55:12.600 --> 0:55:17.000 know once that, once that identification comes, you know, it's 0:55:17.040 --> 0:55:24.600 pretty much games up. It also kind of has affected 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:30.760 our recruitment in the sense that people on the outside 0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:35.120 looking in may see what we're doing as more dangerous 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:38.520 than it actually is because of those security concerns, and 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:43.120 they might be scared of retaliation and not want to 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:48.359 participate because of that. So we have taken to kind 0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:55.320 of reducing the fire in our online social media's for 0:55:55.480 --> 0:55:57.600 some of that mutual aid stuff, so that we don't 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:00.279 get as much of the backbash on those accounts. And 0:56:01.360 --> 0:56:04.920 we found that it's helpful to have ancillary groups that 0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:08.440 can go and do more autonomous stuff if we need 0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:11.600 stuff done that it or said that as a're gonna 0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:15.960 create more backlash, right, So have sort of different layers 0:56:16.000 --> 0:56:21.440 of the organization. I remember the after futurist abolitioncy America's 0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:24.560 one of the statements they had puts out they were 0:56:26.600 --> 0:56:30.360 they had used it to move like my courizy in 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:34.040 the sense of having sort of different levels of network 0:56:34.920 --> 0:56:37.279 in place. You have like the above ground level of 0:56:37.400 --> 0:56:40.960 you know, more visible public face and action, whereas you 0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:47.160 have that sort of underground, fungal network of anonymous and 0:56:47.480 --> 0:56:51.880 probably more risky action taken place. Yeah, because we have 0:56:52.040 --> 0:56:54.640 to sort of maintain a certain level of good will 0:56:55.160 --> 0:56:59.000 in town for the mutual for certain sides of our organizing. 0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:05.000 Organizing like the police, for example, they're always down at 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:09.080 camp and so having an amicable relationship with them is 0:57:09.120 --> 0:57:15.400 advantageous in certain scenarios. So, yeah, splitting apart roles, I 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:20.080 would say, you know, one role being the public facing 0:57:20.200 --> 0:57:23.600 side of things and one role being the more private, 0:57:24.160 --> 0:57:27.960 autonomous group. And how would you see you're talking about 0:57:28.000 --> 0:57:30.960 you some semi am a couple of relationship with the police. 0:57:31.000 --> 0:57:36.320 How has that been sort of sort of set up? 0:57:36.400 --> 0:57:40.640 You know, what was the basis of that. Well, as 0:57:40.800 --> 0:57:46.840 we were mentioning the the the structure of policing is 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:50.960 a little bit different, since the police in an area 0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:54.600 small like this is going to hire locally as opposed 0:57:54.640 --> 0:57:59.920 to in large metropolis areas you generally see police department 0:58:00.160 --> 0:58:03.720 in big cities hiring from the suburbs surrounding the area 0:58:04.800 --> 0:58:10.320 leads to sort of like a foreign occupation feel. That's 0:58:10.960 --> 0:58:13.840 definitely the feeling that I got when I was doing 0:58:13.920 --> 0:58:17.320 stuff in Oakland was that the Oakland Police Department was 0:58:17.480 --> 0:58:20.520 not made up of anyone who lived in Oakland. You know, 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:23.880 they were coming from the surrounding suburbs that were much 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:28.960 more affluent and removed from the problems of Oakland, and 0:58:29.200 --> 0:58:32.600 they were just there to occupy by force. And so 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:36.320 we get more like the Andy Griffith feel out here, 0:58:36.600 --> 0:58:41.200 where it's like the cops are, you know, the good guys, 0:58:41.240 --> 0:58:44.320 who's trying, who's helping Grahama across the road, and you know, 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:48.400 will you know, carry your groceries up the stairs for 0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:50.720 you and that kind of stuff. At least that's more 0:58:51.920 --> 0:58:55.800 at least that's more the public perception. Anyway. They also 0:58:55.880 --> 0:58:59.200 have a small tank and conduct all sorts of drug rates. 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:03.960 Rights to me, like, yeah, we're helping you, you know, 0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:07.760 we're walking you down the road and carrying your groceries 0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:09.920 in your house for you within all the shoe But 0:59:10.120 --> 0:59:13.240 because of the small town aspects of it though, um 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:18.960 being able to like play on their um wanting you know, 0:59:19.040 --> 0:59:20.680 for the ones who do want to help but are 0:59:20.760 --> 0:59:25.680 misguided because they're cops acab um. But for the ones 0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:27.680 who are trying to help, who aren't like specifically going 0:59:27.720 --> 0:59:31.520 out trying to fuck over homeless people besides their jobs, 0:59:32.040 --> 0:59:34.000 you know, once who occasionally like go out and buy 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:36.000 stuff of their own money or whatever to like help 0:59:36.080 --> 0:59:38.560 so or whatever, they'll kind of like rely on us 0:59:38.800 --> 0:59:43.360 to deal with that side of the population so they 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:45.480 don't have to waste their time dealing with the homeless, 0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:50.200 is how and which is allows us to deal with 0:59:50.400 --> 0:59:52.840 more of the problems in the homeless community in house 0:59:53.160 --> 0:59:56.080 versus having to get the police involved, right because you know, 0:59:56.160 --> 0:59:59.880 the police aren't really treated or capable of resolving the 1:00:00.000 --> 1:00:02.960 it's kind of issues. For example, like my father, for 1:00:03.200 --> 1:00:06.480 for example, UM, he was in and out of prison 1:00:06.600 --> 1:00:09.680 his whole life, and after I was born and he 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:12.840 got out of prison that last time, Um, he had 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:15.320 a moment where he's gonna get ready to have a relapse. Right. 1:00:15.760 --> 1:00:18.439 He went to his dealer's house. You know, he's there, 1:00:18.880 --> 1:00:22.480 he bought his eight ball. He's sitting there and you know, 1:00:22.800 --> 1:00:24.320 getting ready to do his thing and there's a knock 1:00:24.360 --> 1:00:26.800 at the door and they opened it up and it's 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:29.600 police there. They got a warrant for the dealer. They're 1:00:29.680 --> 1:00:32.680 raiding the house. And this one cop you know, pulls 1:00:32.800 --> 1:00:34.800 my dad aside because he knows if the other cops season, 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:37.480 he's gonna send him straight to prison. And he's like, 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:40.080 you know, hey, you know, what are you doing here? Man? 1:00:40.280 --> 1:00:42.800 And whatever possessed my dad to do it, he's like, 1:00:42.880 --> 1:00:44.520 I just want to go home. He put the eight 1:00:44.560 --> 1:00:47.120 ball in that dude's hand and cops kind of looked 1:00:47.120 --> 1:00:48.600 at him, was like, just just get the fuck out 1:00:48.640 --> 1:00:50.960 of here, just go because he knew if the other 1:00:51.040 --> 1:00:52.520 cop you know, saw him, he would have sent him 1:00:52.520 --> 1:00:58.640 to prison right then, and the like again a cab, 1:00:58.920 --> 1:01:01.320 the like, this is, you know, the best story you're 1:01:01.400 --> 1:01:05.600 ever going to hear, our best story if a cop 1:01:05.760 --> 1:01:09.680 is a cop not being a cop pretty much? Yeah, exactly, yeah, 1:01:09.960 --> 1:01:13.120 every time. But you definitely get more of that here though. 1:01:13.520 --> 1:01:17.400 That their advantage to take over. Yeah, and we have 1:01:17.600 --> 1:01:22.640 a certain people in our group that can liaison better 1:01:22.680 --> 1:01:24.720 than others with the police, and so we've used that 1:01:24.840 --> 1:01:30.200 to our advantage as well. They've largely ignored, I want 1:01:30.240 --> 1:01:32.160 to say, the police, not the city. The city wants 1:01:32.200 --> 1:01:36.640 to stop us, it's like their undying wish apparently, But 1:01:37.080 --> 1:01:40.960 the police have largely ignored or shown tacit support for 1:01:41.000 --> 1:01:44.440 our efforts because they're members of the community and they, 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:51.120 at least the older crop of officers, have been working 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:56.040 these streets and seeing the same homeless individuals for in 1:01:56.200 --> 1:02:00.320 some cases longer than I've been allowed, So you know, 1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:03.000 there are relationships there, even it's even if it's one 1:02:03.720 --> 1:02:07.880 mediated by that position that being a police officer. Um, 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:12.960 when you see someone struggling for that long, you know, 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:15.640 it's it's hard not to be empathetic as a human. 1:02:16.200 --> 1:02:18.600 And so we've been seeing a bit of a shift 1:02:18.840 --> 1:02:21.240 now that they are all those officers are starting to 1:02:21.320 --> 1:02:24.120 retire and we're getting a new crop of younger, more 1:02:24.280 --> 1:02:30.480 gung ho police because who would who would vaun who 1:02:30.480 --> 1:02:32.480 would sign up to be a police officer in twenty 1:02:32.560 --> 1:02:35.960 twenty three, you know, other than people who have something 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:41.919 going on with it. So yeah, but for a while 1:02:42.000 --> 1:02:44.000 there it was this, you know, that sort of old 1:02:44.040 --> 1:02:47.120 crop of police officers who had build relationships in the 1:02:47.160 --> 1:02:51.360 community and had that public image of being the helpful 1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:55.920 peace officer, as it were, which makes it hard to 1:02:56.000 --> 1:02:58.280 push back when you're when you're a group that's trying 1:02:58.320 --> 1:03:04.440 to advance, you know, abolitionists thinking and anti cop sentiments. 1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:08.720 When they are beating people with batons, it's easy for 1:03:08.800 --> 1:03:10.439 your community to look at that and be like, Okay, 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:14.320 these guys are clearly the enemy. But when they're just 1:03:15.080 --> 1:03:18.280 you know, helping grandma across the street, it's a lot 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:22.120 harder to make those arguments. So that's been one aspect 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:25.240 that has made things difficult for us, and another dichotomy 1:03:25.480 --> 1:03:29.000 in the just the list of these in the mere 1:03:29.160 --> 1:03:35.080 differences between the conditions around organizing in a small town 1:03:35.440 --> 1:03:39.400 rural area versus bigger in cities such as say Seattle. Yeah, 1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.960 but despite all of their helpful nature there, they are 1:03:44.200 --> 1:03:51.000 enforcing local ordinances that criminalize then housed, despite the ruling 1:03:51.040 --> 1:03:53.960 out of the Ninth Circuit Court of Martin G. Boise 1:03:54.720 --> 1:03:58.640 that says it's unconstitutional to do so so, even with 1:03:59.040 --> 1:04:02.760 no alternative alternative shelter available. This year we have zero 1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:06.480 cold weather shelters in Aberdeen. They're still out there sweeping 1:04:06.520 --> 1:04:08.959 people and telling them, hey, you've got to move along. 1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:13.760 When the maps handed out by the city say specifically 1:04:13.840 --> 1:04:16.080 you can sleep here and you can camp here as 1:04:16.120 --> 1:04:19.000 long as you leave enough space for pedestrians to get by, 1:04:19.240 --> 1:04:21.640 you can set up on the sidebox, and yet they 1:04:21.720 --> 1:04:25.520 move them along every day. Yeah, as you're talking about, 1:04:25.640 --> 1:04:27.120 you know, the different Ey caught to me is that 1:04:28.320 --> 1:04:32.080 you feace between urban and rurale political organizing. I would 1:04:32.120 --> 1:04:37.720 imagine that population is certainly an issue about that you 1:04:37.920 --> 1:04:41.600 might have to feace as you know, an organization trying 1:04:41.720 --> 1:04:46.120 to make a change in a small space, have your phone. 1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:51.480 It challenging to build your base and you know, get 1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:56.800 connections and stuff going. Yeah, for certain like, as we said, 1:04:56.840 --> 1:05:00.240 there's already the issues with the US having a more 1:05:00.800 --> 1:05:05.320 reactionary based politics in a lot of our population, and 1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:09.160 that's scaring what allies that we do have here. So 1:05:09.320 --> 1:05:12.160 it's definitely resulted in us having to do the best 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:16.280 we can to network outside as much as possible. Yeah, 1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:18.840 there's not a really wide base of radicals to pull from, 1:05:18.960 --> 1:05:21.720 so we have to work with a bit wider ranging 1:05:22.040 --> 1:05:25.040 group of folks out here, although it has always shocked 1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:27.040 me how many people are willing to get involved in 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:34.080 radical organizing here in town. You know, I think the 1:05:34.200 --> 1:05:36.800 smaller group size has led to a need for more 1:05:38.400 --> 1:05:42.200 connection and more listening in our decision making processes, which 1:05:42.240 --> 1:05:46.120 has been nice. I think we've gotten really good at 1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:50.680 operating as a small technique group, which may be organizers 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:55.360 in larger areas where groups are larger, I have to 1:05:55.480 --> 1:05:58.680 deal with a little bit differently. You know. There's also 1:05:58.720 --> 1:06:03.040 the difference in terms of where we socialize. In places 1:06:03.120 --> 1:06:09.320 like Aberdeen, there's nothing to do in terms of social gatherings. 1:06:09.520 --> 1:06:18.160 There's no center of socialization in town. The only thing 1:06:18.240 --> 1:06:20.000 that we did have was the mall, which has been 1:06:20.080 --> 1:06:24.400 closed for a couple of years now. So there's not 1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:27.640 a lot to do in terms of activities, and there's 1:06:27.680 --> 1:06:30.800 also just not a lot of space, like physical space 1:06:30.880 --> 1:06:34.400 in which to gather as a community. That's why we 1:06:34.560 --> 1:06:38.480 are currently serving our through not bomb meals under a 1:06:38.560 --> 1:06:43.000 bridge because the city has removed all covered areas in 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:47.080 one of the most rainy areas in the country. Yeah, 1:06:47.160 --> 1:06:49.920 Like when I go to like Seattle, for for example, 1:06:50.320 --> 1:06:54.200 I could walk into any business, any doorway, just about 1:06:54.280 --> 1:06:58.640 any street pole and see flyer after flyer after flyer 1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:03.520 for this event, this oncertaty, this group is doing this, this, this, 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:08.520 these classes are taking place, etc. They straight up have 1:07:08.720 --> 1:07:12.680 a law against putting anything on the poles in town 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:16.400 versus let alone. They're actually being any events happening worth 1:07:17.120 --> 1:07:21.200 using the poles in the first place, right right. So 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:24.040 I would imagine that parts of your aims as a 1:07:24.120 --> 1:07:26.920 collective would be to find ways to bring the immunity 1:07:26.920 --> 1:07:31.600 together through those sorts of social events, in formal and 1:07:31.760 --> 1:07:35.440 formal for sure. And that's definitely a big part of 1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:40.000 our goal with the Black Flower Project is to create 1:07:40.120 --> 1:07:44.040 a sort of social center, a place for the community 1:07:44.120 --> 1:07:50.040 to come for various reasons and you know, experience whatever 1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:53.920 they might discover. So it sounds like you'll have a 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:57.120 good lay of the land in terms of what is 1:07:57.200 --> 1:07:59.200 happening in the town and what sort of movements you 1:07:59.360 --> 1:08:04.000 want to be making. In the next part of this episode, 1:08:04.800 --> 1:08:08.200 you can join myself and Miya and Ryan and Sprout 1:08:08.800 --> 1:08:14.720 as we discuss the actions that Black Fowl Collective plans 1:08:14.720 --> 1:08:17.920 on taken in their community and what sort of material 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:23.479 conditions they've continued to have to navigate in this space 1:08:24.760 --> 1:08:28.360 until then. I'm Andrew of the YouTube channel andrews Um. 1:08:28.760 --> 1:08:31.200 You can call me on Twitter at underscore sat Drew 1:08:31.680 --> 1:08:35.000 and support on Patreon dot com, slash Seeing Drew. And 1:08:35.160 --> 1:08:40.439 you could also check out Blackflower Collective and support their work. Yeah. 1:08:40.520 --> 1:08:44.759 You can find us at link tree, backslash, black Flower LLC, 1:08:45.920 --> 1:08:49.760 or Blackflower Collective dot no blogs dot org. You can 1:08:49.840 --> 1:08:57.400 also find our content at at link tree Backslash al 1:08:57.600 --> 1:09:01.479 thirteen twelve, where you can find our podcasts maltav Now 1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:03.960 and a bunch of our other projects by Saber Media. 1:09:04.200 --> 1:09:22.960 Thanks loot guys, Hello, and welcome to it could Happen here. 1:09:24.560 --> 1:09:29.280 Joining me again for this second part of two parts, 1:09:31.320 --> 1:09:36.120 shari An and sprout from the Black Flower Collective in Aberdeen, Washington, 1:09:36.800 --> 1:09:39.880 as they've joined us to discuss the dichotomy between urban 1:09:39.960 --> 1:09:43.680 and rural political organizing. Last week spoke. They gave us 1:09:43.720 --> 1:09:48.760 some background on exactly how the Black Flower Collective began 1:09:48.920 --> 1:09:53.080 and what sort of motivating factors they have been in 1:09:53.200 --> 1:09:56.240 their developments as an organization, as well as some of 1:09:56.240 --> 1:10:01.320 the dichotomies that they've experience between urban and rural political organizing. 1:10:02.280 --> 1:10:04.760 Now we're going to take a moment to explore some 1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:07.439 of the materials, some of the other material conditions that 1:10:07.760 --> 1:10:13.040 they have feast in their city or rather in this 1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:16.800 small hotel. Sure an, As we were talking about in 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:19.920 the last episode, there's a huge difference between the modes 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:24.000 of socialization um in big cities and then versus small 1:10:24.080 --> 1:10:27.880 towns like our own, you know, Pere, we socialize more 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:30.760 like in our houses. You meet friends at at the 1:10:30.840 --> 1:10:35.000 homes of other friends houses, where in the bigger cities 1:10:35.240 --> 1:10:39.080 it's more so that you know, you went to a club, 1:10:39.200 --> 1:10:42.760 you went to an event, concert, class, what I have 1:10:43.040 --> 1:10:48.920 you um, And these are definitely things that have like 1:10:50.320 --> 1:10:53.960 evolved and developed based on the you know, just different 1:10:54.000 --> 1:10:58.280 material conditions. Like you know, there's not as many classes 1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:01.240 around here and you know, events and stuff like that 1:11:01.320 --> 1:11:03.200 because a people just don't have the money to go 1:11:03.360 --> 1:11:06.600 to them and be there. Nobody has the money that 1:11:06.760 --> 1:11:09.639 really put them on or you know, any of that's 1:11:09.720 --> 1:11:12.599 a startup capital. There's not enough money coming through the town. 1:11:12.800 --> 1:11:15.120 That's why the far right are always trying to push 1:11:15.160 --> 1:11:18.000 this homeless narrative, because they're trying to make like turn 1:11:18.080 --> 1:11:20.559 this town into like a tourist town or something which 1:11:21.560 --> 1:11:23.800 makes no goddamn sense to me. There's nothing in this 1:11:23.960 --> 1:11:27.040 town to come here for us, But like, the only 1:11:27.120 --> 1:11:29.360 reason you're coming to this town is because you're driving 1:11:29.400 --> 1:11:32.040 through here to go to the ocean. That's it. Like 1:11:32.160 --> 1:11:35.200 the highway dumps out here and then it's old highways 1:11:35.640 --> 1:11:38.720 back to the rest of the ocean. Sounds pretty isolated. 1:11:39.240 --> 1:11:42.840 It can be pretty isolating out here, but it doesn't 1:11:42.880 --> 1:11:49.720 disconnect us from the overall struggle. Throughout our organizing, we've 1:11:49.800 --> 1:11:52.120 discovered that there's a lot of things that we can 1:11:52.200 --> 1:11:57.839 do for urban comrades through our mutual aid. For example, 1:11:58.640 --> 1:12:03.080 rural people can do anything that is virtual, such as 1:12:03.200 --> 1:12:06.920 graphic design or web support. We can also offer up 1:12:07.479 --> 1:12:11.240 rural spaces for rest and recuperation for front light activists 1:12:11.560 --> 1:12:15.120 in urban areas. While we might not be present in 1:12:15.200 --> 1:12:17.879 the heat of battle, we can make our isolation of strength, 1:12:18.280 --> 1:12:22.120 as often people abused directly by the system require peace 1:12:22.160 --> 1:12:27.160 and solitude to recover from such trauma. We can also 1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:31.840 use our local networks to identify enemies and report this 1:12:32.000 --> 1:12:35.240 to the wider radical community out here. There is a 1:12:35.439 --> 1:12:40.120 huge number of out here and in the Pacific Northwest 1:12:40.360 --> 1:12:43.400 in general, there's a huge number of white supremacists and 1:12:43.439 --> 1:12:49.639 neo Nazi militias and organizations, and so they generally organize 1:12:49.680 --> 1:12:52.880 in small towns like Aberdeen. You see a lot of 1:12:52.960 --> 1:12:57.479 that here, and so people living in those towns bear 1:12:57.560 --> 1:13:02.880 the responsibility, we think of reporting on the activities of 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:06.519 those groups to the wider community, because a lot of 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:09.720 times what you see is, you know, it's kind of 1:13:09.760 --> 1:13:13.640 like the police coming in from the suburbs. The extremist 1:13:14.680 --> 1:13:18.720 often come in from the outlying rural areas, either in 1:13:18.920 --> 1:13:25.800 protest scenarios or you know, usually in protest scenarios. We 1:13:25.920 --> 1:13:29.880 saw a couple instances in which our local right wing 1:13:30.600 --> 1:13:35.759 neo Nazi group went out to Chaz and was filming 1:13:35.880 --> 1:13:40.360 videos out there and collecting information for their organizing back here. 1:13:41.000 --> 1:13:44.400 So we can also be doing the same throughout the 1:13:45.120 --> 1:13:49.360 interim and collecting information on those groups for our comrades 1:13:49.360 --> 1:13:53.040 and urban areas, right right, That sounds like some really 1:13:53.200 --> 1:13:56.120 viable and pout and weeze to to build that sense 1:13:56.200 --> 1:14:00.800 of Uban rural solidarity. Yeah, yeah, because there's definitely a 1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:05.679 lot of people out here that need UM some notes 1:14:05.760 --> 1:14:08.920 taken on them. UM for example, during the height of 1:14:09.000 --> 1:14:13.720 the twenty twenty protests, Um, there is a small solidarity 1:14:13.760 --> 1:14:17.800 protest um that was essentially just five women that you know, 1:14:17.880 --> 1:14:21.160 holding a couple signs, and which resulted in a line 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:25.840 of reactionaries and their assault rifles. The you know, the 1:14:26.040 --> 1:14:28.840 harass I get threatening this very small group of women 1:14:29.520 --> 1:14:33.760 of you know, if it says saying how Antifa was 1:14:33.800 --> 1:14:35.200 coming to the town and they were going to burn 1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:38.040 the town down and all this stuff. Um, you got 1:14:38.160 --> 1:14:41.920 people like in uh in Walla, Walla, for example, you 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:48.800 have Henry Contrera who utilizes what connections and whatnot that 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:52.480 he has out there to like call other white supremacists 1:14:53.000 --> 1:14:55.160 around the nation and would essentially be like, hey, you know, 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:57.200 move here, We'll get you a job, we'll get you 1:14:57.280 --> 1:14:59.320 a house, we'll get you all set up. Just come 1:14:59.360 --> 1:15:01.160 here and organiz as with us. And we kind of 1:15:01.200 --> 1:15:06.080 have our own version of that here in Aberdeen with 1:15:06.760 --> 1:15:11.160 Cash McCollum, a leader of the Pacific Northwest wolf Pack, 1:15:11.240 --> 1:15:14.640 our local neo Nazi group and people like that. I 1:15:14.760 --> 1:15:20.200 think it's only just them, that's a whole group that 1:15:21.160 --> 1:15:24.840 there are a whole social setting that follows them and 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:28.080 us being in rural communities are going to have the 1:15:28.120 --> 1:15:30.479 best opportunity to keep tabs on that kind of stuff 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:35.719 and warn the wider community. Right, Yeah, that's that's absolutely vital. 1:15:36.560 --> 1:15:39.639 And you know, one of my questions i'd prepared incoming 1:15:39.640 --> 1:15:42.759 to meet with your I was going to ask, actually, 1:15:42.800 --> 1:15:46.400 you know, how can we avoid this sort of idea 1:15:46.479 --> 1:15:48.120 that a lot of people have in their heads, A 1:15:48.320 --> 1:15:50.759 radicals have in their heads? Did sort of the distant 1:15:50.840 --> 1:15:54.879 commune trap? You know, this idea that you know, radicals 1:15:54.960 --> 1:15:56.840 they move out to the country, they set up the 1:15:57.479 --> 1:16:00.960 happy the commune. It either follows up pot into a 1:16:01.040 --> 1:16:04.679 cult or just like pulls away from the broader struggle. 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:08.400 But it seems like in some ways you'll have been 1:16:08.439 --> 1:16:10.839 able to utilize that distance as a sort of a strength. 1:16:12.439 --> 1:16:14.320 And you've spoken quite a bit about how the real 1:16:14.360 --> 1:16:18.160 communities different ways they've been able to help Uban communities 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:21.639 in the broader struggle. But now I guess I want 1:16:21.640 --> 1:16:24.280 to tune the tune the tables a bit and ask 1:16:24.680 --> 1:16:30.080 what sort of we as Uban radicals can support the 1:16:30.200 --> 1:16:35.280 struggles within rural communities. Well, one way that we've seen 1:16:35.320 --> 1:16:38.640 a lot of solidarity from urban comrades has been in 1:16:38.720 --> 1:16:44.639 the topic of harm reduction. It's really hard to access 1:16:44.720 --> 1:16:48.320 services out here where we're at. There's really only one 1:16:48.520 --> 1:16:54.000 player in town, and they are highly bureaucratic, and the 1:16:54.280 --> 1:16:56.720 line to get any sort of social service from them 1:16:56.920 --> 1:17:02.000 is a mile long. Also, fun notes that Cash McCollum, 1:17:02.080 --> 1:17:04.120 person I talked about earlier, is on the board for 1:17:04.600 --> 1:17:07.559 that social service as well as long as as well 1:17:07.600 --> 1:17:10.479 as other people who are part of the Soap group. Yeah, 1:17:10.840 --> 1:17:16.559 so we've seen a large show solidarity from urban comrades 1:17:16.720 --> 1:17:21.120 sending us harm reduction supplies such as Narcan, which has 1:17:21.240 --> 1:17:24.679 literally saved dozens of lives since we started that program. 1:17:25.680 --> 1:17:29.040 Healthcare in general is a tough issue for rural areas. 1:17:31.040 --> 1:17:35.600 Transportation distances, lack of providers, lack of services, all of 1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:39.479 those things compound to make it really difficult to get 1:17:40.040 --> 1:17:44.160 appropriate healthcare. And so anytime anyone has any actual injury 1:17:44.200 --> 1:17:47.040 in town there, they just send them to Seattle and 1:17:47.200 --> 1:17:53.759 right our hospitals out here are really terrible, and so training, 1:17:54.160 --> 1:17:56.720 I think would be a really vital need that we 1:17:56.840 --> 1:17:59.320 could benefit from a lot out here if we could 1:17:59.400 --> 1:18:04.080 get the medical collectives and the harm reduction collectives that 1:18:04.320 --> 1:18:10.240 exist in these more urban areas to conduct rural training workshops. 1:18:10.760 --> 1:18:14.600 I think that that would be a huge benefit to 1:18:14.960 --> 1:18:18.120 not only just Aberdeen, any rural area that that was 1:18:18.400 --> 1:18:22.680 to take place in, because that would allow those communities 1:18:22.760 --> 1:18:28.720 to start employing harm reduction and general first aid in 1:18:28.840 --> 1:18:35.360 their communities and prevent transportation out to these more metro areas. Yeah, 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:37.320 the more we could do skill shares, the more we 1:18:37.360 --> 1:18:40.920 could do workshops, the more we could do radical classes 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:46.880 or anything under the idea of kind of unschooling that 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:50.800 we could do for rural communities is imperative because the 1:18:51.760 --> 1:18:54.160 outside of high school, unless you're going to college for 1:18:54.240 --> 1:18:58.160 something specific, there's just not much for learning out here. 1:18:58.880 --> 1:19:02.000 What about the next general what about that site of 1:19:02.120 --> 1:19:07.639 struggle in education? Well, I believe sprout could probably delve 1:19:07.680 --> 1:19:10.000 into this a bit more, but it definitely would say 1:19:10.520 --> 1:19:15.000 that our ideas for you know, educations in the next 1:19:15.040 --> 1:19:17.640 generation as much as everything kind of goes under this 1:19:19.000 --> 1:19:22.360 I forget the name of it, but it's this idea 1:19:22.360 --> 1:19:26.840 of the like seven years generation in our planning and 1:19:26.960 --> 1:19:30.160 the like, what what would this look like for the 1:19:30.280 --> 1:19:36.080 next seven generations? Right? Seven generations? Sustainability all seven generations 1:19:36.120 --> 1:19:41.000 stewardship is another twom used, I think education is central 1:19:41.080 --> 1:19:45.160 to a community. It's really the same sort of you know, 1:19:45.240 --> 1:19:46.840 you're going to get the same answer with all of 1:19:46.880 --> 1:19:51.360 these healthcare, addiction, poverty, they're all interrelated out here. And 1:19:53.000 --> 1:19:59.800 because education is so crucial, we have focused the Black 1:20:00.000 --> 1:20:04.080 Our Collectives initiatives on a lot of educational programs. So 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:08.120 we're trying to get this space set up so that 1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:12.439 we can start having some revolutionary course works that we 1:20:12.479 --> 1:20:15.200 can offer there. We would really like to develop it 1:20:15.280 --> 1:20:21.840 into a real campus for learning, both for youth programs 1:20:21.960 --> 1:20:26.559 and for like continuing education GD and college level kind 1:20:26.600 --> 1:20:31.240 of stuff. We think that the unschooling method is pretty 1:20:31.240 --> 1:20:34.880 cool where people can kind of just pace their own 1:20:34.960 --> 1:20:36.920 learning and decide what it is they want to learn. 1:20:38.479 --> 1:20:40.600 So that's the method that we would go with, and 1:20:41.680 --> 1:20:44.120 we think that that allows for a lot more diversity 1:20:44.320 --> 1:20:48.559 in the styles of learning that are employed, and through 1:20:48.640 --> 1:20:51.920 that you can kind of learn, you can kind of 1:20:52.000 --> 1:20:56.960 learn new ways of learning, I guess, which helps add 1:20:57.000 --> 1:21:01.479 resilience to any community. And I think that a lot 1:21:01.520 --> 1:21:06.240 of those skills offered at a place like that, Like 1:21:06.560 --> 1:21:08.519 like Sherry I was saying, skill shares, I think a 1:21:08.600 --> 1:21:10.840 lot of that could come from We'll need to come 1:21:10.960 --> 1:21:14.000 from urban communities because we don't have a lot of 1:21:14.040 --> 1:21:17.320 that out here of our right, so hopefully right get 1:21:17.320 --> 1:21:19.599 our When we get our space set up, we can 1:21:19.680 --> 1:21:24.920 host all manner of gatherings and start bridging that divide 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:27.439 between the rural and the urban. Yeah, and I mean 1:21:27.439 --> 1:21:30.600 I've been looting more about your space, did a bit 1:21:30.640 --> 1:21:34.040 of research on it um, you know, prior to the episode, 1:21:34.080 --> 1:21:37.519 and we stood food started token very inspiring stuff, very 1:21:37.600 --> 1:21:39.800 much in the being of something that I plan on 1:21:39.920 --> 1:21:44.000 doing locally here and turn on to be ago. Let's 1:21:44.080 --> 1:21:48.760 pretend that this is uh, lets pretend this is a 1:21:48.840 --> 1:21:51.760 revolutionary vosion of shock tac. All right, Like, let's just 1:21:51.840 --> 1:21:55.480 pretend this is an anarchist shock tac. Give me your 1:21:55.760 --> 1:21:58.479 elevate a pitch for this space, Like, what is the 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:02.800 plan there? Our plan is twofold. The property would be 1:22:02.960 --> 1:22:06.720 divided into two separate sections. The public facing section would 1:22:06.760 --> 1:22:09.320 be dedicated to the social center we've been speaking of, 1:22:10.080 --> 1:22:13.120 and the rest of the property would be what we're 1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:17.080 calling an eco village where residents would live. The social 1:22:17.160 --> 1:22:22.519 center will be where we centralize community resources, and the 1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:26.160 self governed eco village would have immediate access to those 1:22:26.240 --> 1:22:30.519 shared resources. The plan is to run the Social Center 1:22:30.640 --> 1:22:33.839 as a bit of a small business incubator for various 1:22:33.960 --> 1:22:37.639 community initiatives that we've been talking about, and as well 1:22:37.760 --> 1:22:40.800 for the residents of the Eco village to start their 1:22:40.840 --> 1:22:45.360 own small person of businesses, because in our discussions with 1:22:45.479 --> 1:22:48.840 people on the streets, you know, everyone has an idea 1:22:48.840 --> 1:22:50.640 of how to make money, and it's just always some 1:22:50.880 --> 1:22:56.560 small barrier like paperwork or permits that gets in the 1:22:56.640 --> 1:23:00.880 way of them starting to have their own income and 1:23:01.080 --> 1:23:04.599 that sense of independence. So we want to be able 1:23:04.640 --> 1:23:07.640 to help with that. It would also obviously be a 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:10.800 central hub for preparing and serving food, which has been 1:23:10.880 --> 1:23:13.360 the basis of all of our organizing so far is 1:23:13.400 --> 1:23:16.720 the coming together and sharing of meals. We want to 1:23:16.760 --> 1:23:20.760 have an Internet cafeteria and a community kitchen there. We 1:23:20.840 --> 1:23:24.360 would also host hold space for the Mutual Aid Network 1:23:24.520 --> 1:23:30.919 to store supplies and conduct its work both on and offsite. 1:23:32.320 --> 1:23:35.880 We want to have enough space to have a meeting 1:23:35.920 --> 1:23:42.200 hall for potential unions and start pushing on the unionization 1:23:42.439 --> 1:23:47.240 locally with the IWW. All of these spaces would be 1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:52.200 rentable to the public, so the union hall, for example, 1:23:52.240 --> 1:23:55.800 would be a great venue for an event that someone 1:23:55.840 --> 1:23:59.519 wanted to throw, or perhaps the wedding even and so 1:23:59.680 --> 1:24:02.320 that be one source of revenue for the Social center, 1:24:02.960 --> 1:24:07.320 as well as the bookkeeping, the back end bookkeeping services 1:24:07.640 --> 1:24:10.480 that we're going to have as part of the business incubator, 1:24:11.160 --> 1:24:14.640 and the permaculture design services that we're going to have 1:24:15.240 --> 1:24:20.840 as part of the eco village. The release sounds like 1:24:20.880 --> 1:24:23.240 a lot of the different ideas that I've had conversion 1:24:23.280 --> 1:24:25.640 on my channel for some time now. You know, this 1:24:25.840 --> 1:24:29.160 idea of a sort of a library economy, in this 1:24:29.280 --> 1:24:32.839 idea of the eco villages, the sort of public culture 1:24:32.880 --> 1:24:38.240 spieces and moods and centers of clunity, outreach and education. 1:24:39.040 --> 1:24:42.519 I'd be lying if I didn't say say that that 1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:45.880 we're a huge fan of your channel. Actually appreciate that, 1:24:46.439 --> 1:24:50.840 appreciate that, and I'm honestly in tune. This project is 1:24:50.920 --> 1:24:55.320 something that really inspires me as well. Yeah, I'd like 1:24:55.400 --> 1:24:58.920 to say that none of this is from us. We've 1:24:58.960 --> 1:25:02.799 taken so much inspire from other projects to cobble together 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:08.000 this plan that, Yeah, it's been a real joy to 1:25:09.040 --> 1:25:11.760 just go through all of everyone else's different content and 1:25:11.920 --> 1:25:13.479 kind of see like, oh, this could fit with that, 1:25:13.560 --> 1:25:16.040 and this could fit with that, and come up with 1:25:16.120 --> 1:25:18.639 a plan that we really think could start to solve 1:25:18.720 --> 1:25:21.280 some of these issues that we're seeing in town. Right. 1:25:21.360 --> 1:25:24.040 I think that's the real one of the few beauties 1:25:24.240 --> 1:25:26.360 of the Internet these days, you know, the fact that 1:25:26.400 --> 1:25:30.519 it's still able to connect people and ideas from all 1:25:30.560 --> 1:25:34.519 over the police. Yeah, for sure. I wanted to ask 1:25:35.160 --> 1:25:38.240 as you mentioned these sort of equal villages and that 1:25:38.439 --> 1:25:44.479 that whole idea having spaces for housing and benefitting the 1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:49.160 people in that community, developing that sort of sense of interdependence. 1:25:50.240 --> 1:25:53.599 I wanted to you know, you can't really talk about 1:25:53.920 --> 1:25:57.400 urban and road rule and urban without bringing up the 1:25:57.520 --> 1:26:02.800 fact that Urbanizasha, you know, seems to ever crawl into 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:05.960 the rural space. You know, like there's always this sense 1:26:06.080 --> 1:26:11.440 of the encroachment of the city on the surrounding rural regions. 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:16.200 What do you what is your teak on that? Yeah, 1:26:16.240 --> 1:26:18.960 it does seem to be a one way street. I 1:26:19.080 --> 1:26:22.080 think the model that we're trying to push is one 1:26:22.160 --> 1:26:25.000 of the growth where you would see sort of a 1:26:25.680 --> 1:26:31.400 reversal of that trend of gentrification or urbanization and you 1:26:31.439 --> 1:26:35.240 would see more of like a ruralizing of urban spaces 1:26:35.439 --> 1:26:41.080 to start having more green spaces, more growing of their 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:46.599 own food, and more production of agricultural products right there 1:26:46.640 --> 1:26:53.160 in the urban centers, right, you know, which is kind 1:26:53.200 --> 1:26:55.439 of what we want to do with the eco village 1:26:55.680 --> 1:27:01.040 is provide a bit of a model for how community organizing, 1:27:02.800 --> 1:27:05.760 of how a community could organize itself around the ecological 1:27:05.840 --> 1:27:12.320 principles prefigurative politics and action exactly. Another note that I 1:27:12.360 --> 1:27:14.360 guess I want to bring up before we start to 1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:18.320 come to the clues is, you know, again we've been 1:27:18.360 --> 1:27:22.000 speaking a lot about the urban and the rule, but 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:25.280 one element, except in a you know, sort of a 1:27:25.360 --> 1:27:28.799 passing sense of our discussion of the police, one element 1:27:28.880 --> 1:27:31.360 that's kind of been lost in that and that I 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:34.200 know people might be asking about, is what about the suburbs? 1:27:34.240 --> 1:27:37.599 You know, like, do you see a space for organizing there? 1:27:38.760 --> 1:27:41.040 Way does that fit into that urban rule? That caught 1:27:41.080 --> 1:27:43.720 to me what sort of focus is do you think 1:27:43.840 --> 1:27:48.080 suburban organized says might want to tackle? Well, I think 1:27:49.200 --> 1:27:56.920 suburban comrades are probably gonna have a bit of both worlds, 1:27:57.120 --> 1:28:00.439 as it were, because they're not in the downtown core 1:28:00.760 --> 1:28:04.200 of a city where most protests or sites of struggle happen, 1:28:05.000 --> 1:28:08.760 but they're also not out in the boonies in a 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:13.720 rural environment, so you know, they might have police that 1:28:13.880 --> 1:28:18.000 are a bit more preoccupied with the actual community and 1:28:18.360 --> 1:28:21.560 actually from the community, and so they might need to 1:28:21.680 --> 1:28:25.600 take some lessons from the rural center or from the 1:28:25.720 --> 1:28:30.760 rural areas in that regard and try to diversify their 1:28:30.840 --> 1:28:37.600 group into multiple different roles, multiple different channels, so that 1:28:37.720 --> 1:28:41.080 they are having continuous backlash against a group that's just 1:28:41.160 --> 1:28:46.000 trying to feed the homeless. But at the same time, 1:28:46.280 --> 1:28:48.800 you know, they have a lot of resources that rural 1:28:49.080 --> 1:28:52.120 people don't have access to, and so they could be 1:28:52.240 --> 1:28:54.920 coming into rural areas and providing those same sort of 1:28:55.000 --> 1:28:59.920 trainings and workshops that urban comrades could. And they could 1:29:00.000 --> 1:29:03.679 also be going into urban centers and learning and providing 1:29:03.720 --> 1:29:07.280 workshops and skill shares. In those scenarios, I think they're 1:29:07.360 --> 1:29:11.000 kind of a maybe play a bit of a buffer 1:29:11.120 --> 1:29:15.439 zone between the two. So what does the future look 1:29:15.520 --> 1:29:19.519 like the Black Folk Collective? You know what projects you're 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:22.400 planning on tacklin in the end now, a couple of 1:29:22.439 --> 1:29:25.120 months from now, a few years down the line, and 1:29:26.000 --> 1:29:29.519 how can folk support Well, right now, we are definitely 1:29:29.600 --> 1:29:34.679 focused on securing funding. The housing market is horrible. Property 1:29:34.720 --> 1:29:37.439 prices are going up, and when there is a good 1:29:37.520 --> 1:29:41.559 deal on something, it's gone usually within a day, within hours. 1:29:42.600 --> 1:29:46.320 So we are definitely full focused on fundraising right now. 1:29:46.720 --> 1:29:48.560 We need to have the money on hand to be 1:29:48.680 --> 1:29:50.960 able to jump on a piece of property when it 1:29:51.000 --> 1:29:53.360 comes up, because we need a good deal and we 1:29:53.439 --> 1:29:55.760 need a good amount of land to make sure that 1:29:55.840 --> 1:29:59.759 we have the room to grow and build various projects 1:30:00.000 --> 1:30:03.519 in the future. Yeah, So the projects that we're focusing 1:30:03.600 --> 1:30:09.560 on right now immediately is the Perma Culture Design Services, 1:30:10.560 --> 1:30:15.120 and so if anyone wants to have us design their 1:30:15.720 --> 1:30:19.439 farm or garden or house or balcony, they can go 1:30:19.600 --> 1:30:23.920 to Blackflower Perma Culture dot no, blogs dot org and 1:30:25.200 --> 1:30:30.240 get started through that process there. Hopefully, once we get land, 1:30:31.439 --> 1:30:33.920 as you were saying, in the next five years, the 1:30:34.560 --> 1:30:38.479 Perma Culture Design Services can grow into a permaculture design 1:30:38.600 --> 1:30:41.960 course that we could actually start offering people to come 1:30:42.160 --> 1:30:46.439 and do like a two week intensive study on the 1:30:47.439 --> 1:30:50.559 building techniques that we're using on site in the eco 1:30:50.680 --> 1:30:54.280 village and on how to apply those back at home. 1:30:55.760 --> 1:30:59.680 Another project that we're currently working on is the bookkeeping 1:31:01.520 --> 1:31:05.920 This is sort of the bedrock of the business admin 1:31:06.040 --> 1:31:08.639 side of things that we're going to be folding into 1:31:08.760 --> 1:31:12.800 the business incubator once we get that going, and we 1:31:12.920 --> 1:31:15.240 are looking into a couple of different grants for that. 1:31:15.479 --> 1:31:18.280 But as Sherry and said, you know, right now we're 1:31:18.320 --> 1:31:21.920 focused on fundraising, so we are. We do have a 1:31:22.000 --> 1:31:25.360 couple of different platforms that we're collecting donations from and 1:31:25.560 --> 1:31:30.240 we are starting to plan a few benefit shows here 1:31:30.320 --> 1:31:34.719 locally in Aberdeen. So if anyone is in a band 1:31:34.920 --> 1:31:38.920 and wants to roll through and play a show for us, 1:31:39.280 --> 1:31:42.280 you know that would be much appreciated and then they 1:31:42.320 --> 1:31:44.479 can just get a hold of us through our website. 1:31:45.439 --> 1:31:49.679 So our role in black Flower is trying to spread 1:31:49.720 --> 1:31:53.120 awareness help with this fundraising. Gave them kind of free 1:31:53.160 --> 1:31:58.200 advertisement in order to help their growth. Mean Sprout and 1:31:58.280 --> 1:32:01.960 our podcast moltop Now are from the Sabo Media Collective, 1:32:02.479 --> 1:32:05.759 which once things are going with good with black Flower, 1:32:05.840 --> 1:32:10.160 we're hoping to be housed by them to help grow 1:32:10.240 --> 1:32:14.040 our media efforts. But if another good way to help 1:32:14.360 --> 1:32:18.479 in supporting black Flower is to go to our website 1:32:18.680 --> 1:32:27.080 at Sabo Sabot Media dot Noblogs dot org and share 1:32:27.120 --> 1:32:30.240 our podcast Maltov. Now check us out on social media, 1:32:30.760 --> 1:32:36.519 on whatever social media you are on. From Collectiva masted 1:32:36.600 --> 1:32:43.240 onto Facebook at Aberdeen Local thirteen twelve. We have articles 1:32:43.280 --> 1:32:45.600 that we write on the Harbor Rat Report and a 1:32:45.640 --> 1:32:48.720 whole host of other content for people to check out 1:32:48.760 --> 1:32:52.439 and share with donation links that all go to Black 1:32:52.479 --> 1:32:56.200 Flowers efforts. That's fantastic and I would encourage folks to 1:32:56.520 --> 1:32:59.919 check out what they're doing and all these different platforms 1:33:00.840 --> 1:33:03.479 and well, that's been it for it could happen here. 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:06.439 It's been great to have you both from Black Flower Collective. 1:33:08.000 --> 1:33:13.160 I've been your host for today. Andrew of the YouTube 1:33:13.200 --> 1:33:17.840 channel Andrewism, which you can follow YouTube dot com slash Andrewism, 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:22.840 on Twitter at underscore Saint Drew and on Peter dot 1:33:22.880 --> 1:33:26.559 com slash Saint True. All power to all the people 1:33:27.400 --> 1:33:29.760 that's have your Thanks for having us, thanks for being on. 1:33:30.120 --> 1:33:51.560 Thank you guys, great recording with you. My that's my 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:59.000 getting absolutely screwed over by the Medical Establishment Voice. People 1:33:59.040 --> 1:34:03.719 thought it was another Sheet podcasts. They were briefly extremely excited. Nope, 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:08.559 the Sheep, the Sheep podcast. Will I make no promises 1:34:08.560 --> 1:34:11.000 about the Sheep podcast. What we're going to tell them 1:34:11.000 --> 1:34:15.160 about the Lost Sheep episode. No, yeah, okay, well T 1:34:15.400 --> 1:34:18.280 will just leave that one. Yeah, this is this, this 1:34:18.360 --> 1:34:22.559 is it could happen here the podcast where you would 1:34:22.640 --> 1:34:24.560 think that the medical issue is a trans thing and 1:34:24.600 --> 1:34:27.439 it's absolutely not. And it's amazing and I love it. 1:34:28.000 --> 1:34:30.639 Uh yeah, it's it's a podcast for I complain about 1:34:30.680 --> 1:34:34.760 medical issues and talk about other stuff with me as James. Yeah, 1:34:35.280 --> 1:34:37.879 I'm a person who complains about medical issues and sometimes 1:34:37.960 --> 1:34:43.160 goes to Mexico to buy drugs yeay, legal drugs, medical 1:34:43.240 --> 1:34:52.000 drugs while we're while we're being recorded. This The thing 1:34:52.040 --> 1:34:53.720 that is making me think of is I was in 1:34:55.040 --> 1:34:58.400 Oh god, I don't remember where Mexico I was. Um, 1:34:58.600 --> 1:35:02.280 I was no very old, but so we took up, 1:35:02.280 --> 1:35:04.200 we took a ferry and it was I got like 1:35:04.479 --> 1:35:06.120 so c sick. It was like the most ceasic we've 1:35:06.120 --> 1:35:09.720 ever been. So we had to like go back and 1:35:10.800 --> 1:35:14.280 um we so I this My Spanish is not great 1:35:14.320 --> 1:35:16.040 at this time. My Spanish was much worse than it 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:18.560 is now. Um, and we have to we go to 1:35:18.640 --> 1:35:20.760 this drug store and we're trying to find something that's 1:35:20.760 --> 1:35:22.840 like an antic sickness drug and we buy this drug 1:35:22.920 --> 1:35:28.439 called vomits in and we're looking same. When we're looking 1:35:28.520 --> 1:35:30.920 through the the thing, we find the part where it's 1:35:30.920 --> 1:35:32.880 say side effects, and I remember and I look at 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:34.719 this and I and I read it and it says 1:35:35.040 --> 1:35:40.840 lucas and I'm like, oh no, it's like, oh god, 1:35:40.920 --> 1:35:44.479 it wound up. Actually it was completely fine. Yeah, yeah, 1:35:44.560 --> 1:35:47.360 I did not vomit over the rails again, hydrate on 1:35:47.439 --> 1:35:49.800 the ferry ride back. I have a good I have 1:35:49.840 --> 1:35:53.160 a good inadvertent medicine hallucinogen story, and then we can 1:35:53.240 --> 1:35:56.320 we can actually do the podcast. And I was when 1:35:56.360 --> 1:35:58.679 I was a bit younger. I was climbing a mountain 1:35:58.720 --> 1:36:02.920 in Morocco and became extremely altitude sick, like my fucking 1:36:03.000 --> 1:36:06.560 nose was just like unleashing my blood. Like it was 1:36:06.600 --> 1:36:11.160 a real momentum. Yeah, I look great, and so I 1:36:11.280 --> 1:36:13.880 tried to get some medicine. We went somewhere and like 1:36:14.439 --> 1:36:17.200 you know, I speak French, but most of people spoke 1:36:17.280 --> 1:36:21.599 Berber and it wasn't a language that I speak at all. Anyway, 1:36:21.840 --> 1:36:25.479 I received some medicine which I took in the form 1:36:25.520 --> 1:36:27.719 of I think like a powder that I'm mixed with honey, 1:36:27.760 --> 1:36:30.040 and I was like, okay, this is unique and different. Whatever, 1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:34.080 fuck me, did I have some incredible dreams. I just 1:36:34.200 --> 1:36:36.639 kept taking it. I zone, well, it was definitely opium 1:36:36.920 --> 1:36:39.639 was the thing I was taking. Was like, I bought 1:36:39.680 --> 1:36:41.680 it down and was like, I this stuff just really 1:36:41.720 --> 1:36:44.760 helped out my altitude sickness. One of the adults I 1:36:44.880 --> 1:36:52.400 was with was like, ah, yeah, don't do drugs. Kids 1:36:54.240 --> 1:36:57.640 speaking of not doing drugs. Okay, So what we are 1:36:57.760 --> 1:37:01.920 here today talk about democracy, the opm of the masses. Yeah. 1:37:02.360 --> 1:37:05.639 So this this script was originally written in a period 1:37:05.680 --> 1:37:08.800 where High had spent an enormous amount of time being 1:37:08.920 --> 1:37:14.080 forced to watch documentaries about what democracy was. And my 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:16.519 conclusion from all of this is that the history of 1:37:16.600 --> 1:37:21.280 democracy begins with a mistranslation. Okay, so okay, what does 1:37:21.360 --> 1:37:25.160 that mean? The answer is that, Okay, the whatever someone 1:37:25.280 --> 1:37:27.840 starts talking about democracy, the first thing they do is 1:37:28.400 --> 1:37:30.599 they go, like, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna I'm gonna 1:37:30.640 --> 1:37:36.120 start by translating the word democracy. Now, the most common 1:37:36.200 --> 1:37:39.000 translation that you'll see this like like everywhere, from like 1:37:39.160 --> 1:37:42.800 Astra Taylor's like documentary what is Democracy? To just like 1:37:42.840 --> 1:37:46.759 the thing that's on Wikipedia holds that democracy is derived 1:37:46.840 --> 1:37:50.320 from two Greek words. Right, you have demos meaning the people, 1:37:51.040 --> 1:37:54.439 and cradouse meaning rule. So you put these two together, 1:37:54.560 --> 1:37:58.320 you get demos cradous, you get democracy. My Greek, my 1:37:58.360 --> 1:38:02.639 camp announce greatly. Well, it's fine whatever, it is ancient Greek. Um. Yeah, 1:38:02.680 --> 1:38:04.679 but you know that this means rule by the people. 1:38:06.280 --> 1:38:10.960 So okay. This translation has several advantages right Foremost among them, 1:38:11.000 --> 1:38:12.719 it is simple enough to be taught to a school 1:38:12.800 --> 1:38:15.479 to school children, and catchy enough. That's a non zero 1:38:15.640 --> 1:38:17.679 chance that, like the most pedantic of them will remember 1:38:17.760 --> 1:38:20.760 it after the day after the test, which presumably is 1:38:20.800 --> 1:38:22.839 the explanation for why this is. This is the translation 1:38:22.920 --> 1:38:25.639 of democracy. It opens every single fucking thing people write 1:38:25.640 --> 1:38:33.680 about democracy. Unfortunately appreciately for beleaguered grade school teachers and 1:38:33.800 --> 1:38:35.800 and sort of those are of the broader populace as 1:38:35.800 --> 1:38:38.680 a whole. This translation is so blatantly wrong that I 1:38:38.760 --> 1:38:41.400 have been forced to start a thing about democracy and 1:38:41.479 --> 1:38:47.759 also about rioting yelling about ancient Greek. So great, okay, 1:38:47.800 --> 1:38:50.360 so what what? What? What? What is the actual issue here? 1:38:51.120 --> 1:38:56.200 The actual problem is the mistranslation of Credos in particular 1:38:57.000 --> 1:39:03.200 is incredibly important both conceptual and ideologically, and the actual 1:39:03.360 --> 1:39:06.160 sort of proper translation, and the implications of this are 1:39:06.200 --> 1:39:10.160 worth examining in some detail. So the other problem just 1:39:10.240 --> 1:39:12.600 David Greybirds to way have mentioned a lot on this 1:39:12.720 --> 1:39:18.000 show wrote in his regrettably very poorly read essay There 1:39:18.040 --> 1:39:23.640 Never Was a West, He describes Kratos thus quote in 1:39:23.800 --> 1:39:27.400 this This, in turn, might help explain the term democracy itself, 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:30.120 which appears to have been coined as something of a 1:39:30.200 --> 1:39:33.920 slur by its elitist opponents. It literally means the force 1:39:34.360 --> 1:39:38.720 or even violence of the people Kratos, not arcos, the 1:39:38.800 --> 1:39:42.160 ancient Greek word for ruler, also the root of anarchism 1:39:42.760 --> 1:39:47.880 or without arcos. So, yeah, so what he's saying there 1:39:48.880 --> 1:39:53.360 wasn't Cretos a dude? Like he's dude, day I found 1:39:53.400 --> 1:39:57.360 dissolved him an immortal dude. Yeah he's Also he's the 1:39:57.840 --> 1:40:01.439 main character of the God of war Games. Okay, that 1:40:01.720 --> 1:40:03.640 is the thing I did not know, And hilariously that 1:40:03.800 --> 1:40:06.160 that is like him him being the main character of 1:40:06.200 --> 1:40:07.880 the God of war Games. That is actually a better 1:40:08.000 --> 1:40:12.120 way to understand what Credos is than the rule by 1:40:12.280 --> 1:40:15.280 thing that everyone usually translates. This app because like, like 1:40:15.360 --> 1:40:19.479 ancient Greek has a perfectly good word for like rule 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:21.840 by right, it's arcos. It's the word of anarchisms, like 1:40:21.880 --> 1:40:23.840 an an archos, it's but it's the word. It's like 1:40:24.439 --> 1:40:27.280 the normal thing where you have a Greek derived word 1:40:28.040 --> 1:40:31.960 where you want to say rule by is that is arcos? Right? Yeah? 1:40:32.120 --> 1:40:35.680 But is not that right? Yeah, like all Gk is 1:40:35.680 --> 1:40:39.439 like that. But like democracy is specifically credos. And this 1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:43.519 is because what democracy literally means is rule by the 1:40:43.640 --> 1:40:48.760 violence of the people. Heat. Yeah, well and this, you know, okay, 1:40:48.840 --> 1:40:51.680 so like this, this, this, this, like this sounds like 1:40:51.800 --> 1:40:54.879 I am essentially per clutching about translations, but the context 1:40:54.920 --> 1:40:57.920 you is actually important, right, as as Grammar points out, 1:40:58.439 --> 1:41:01.120 the sort of you know, Athens, which the example or society, 1:41:01.200 --> 1:41:04.400 society against which the original antidemocratic philosopher is rail By 1:41:04.400 --> 1:41:08.000 the way, this is like Plato hates democracy. Most of 1:41:08.080 --> 1:41:10.080 the people who you read from sort of classical Greek 1:41:10.200 --> 1:41:14.680 like yeah, philosophy despised democracy, even so they live in 1:41:14.760 --> 1:41:19.280 them a huge you know, not not not not to 1:41:19.360 --> 1:41:22.640 like whitewash Athenian society. But like these people are like 1:41:22.800 --> 1:41:26.400 sparta apologists, And it's like, yes, we haven't already. It's 1:41:26.400 --> 1:41:28.080 funny that people have definitely I don't know if they've 1:41:28.080 --> 1:41:31.599 actually recovered Plato or red Plato or they just get 1:41:31.680 --> 1:41:35.400 mad when Donald Trump doesn't win elections. But like this whole, 1:41:35.560 --> 1:41:39.160 like this whole like benevolent philosopher king ship has definitely 1:41:39.520 --> 1:41:43.599 definitely made a comeback in recent years. And it's troubling. Yeah, 1:41:43.680 --> 1:41:45.240 And I think I think part of this this is 1:41:45.320 --> 1:41:47.080 this is another complaint that I've had about sort of 1:41:47.120 --> 1:41:50.880 like the way that like the sort of like great 1:41:50.960 --> 1:41:56.080 authors thing is taught in in universities, is they deliberately 1:41:56.320 --> 1:41:59.080 like there is like an in in what in what 1:41:59.200 --> 1:42:01.760 specific reading as they assigned there was like an incredible 1:42:01.800 --> 1:42:04.599 intellectual effort that goes into making sure you never see 1:42:04.640 --> 1:42:07.960 the absolutely drained shit that these people believe. Like Plato. 1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:12.600 Plato literally worships angular momentum. Yeah, like that is his 1:42:12.720 --> 1:42:18.000 god is angular momentum um. Like he he's he hates democracy, 1:42:18.160 --> 1:42:23.360 he loves like spurred in like oligarchy. Basically like all 1:42:23.400 --> 1:42:24.920 of this stuff is like that's like something like you 1:42:25.000 --> 1:42:29.080 don't read you know, as you get assigned Plato. It's like, yeah, 1:42:29.160 --> 1:42:32.120 there's a huge like um as someone who's taught like 1:42:32.160 --> 1:42:35.440 a ton of universities. That's that's this huge fucking impediment 1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:38.880 to you assigning that stuff. Like I've specifically tried to 1:42:39.160 --> 1:42:43.160 assign different stuff in these like writing courses, which which 1:42:43.280 --> 1:42:46.000 ended up being like great white dudes of history. Right, Like, um, 1:42:46.680 --> 1:42:49.200 like if you kind of signed different things, but like 1:42:49.960 --> 1:42:52.719 the cost of of assigning those and that that cost 1:42:53.160 --> 1:42:55.320 isn't born by you or the university, right, it's born 1:42:55.400 --> 1:43:00.200 by your students. It's massive. Like even if for while 1:43:00.240 --> 1:43:02.320 there like we would just like a lot of texts, 1:43:02.320 --> 1:43:04.120 you know, if you take the time as a professor 1:43:04.320 --> 1:43:05.960 to label out of text, you can take it to 1:43:06.000 --> 1:43:08.800 a print shop, get them to photocopy it, and it 1:43:08.840 --> 1:43:11.120 almost evers be you need to find someone who's willing 1:43:11.160 --> 1:43:14.080 to kind of play fast and news with copyright. But 1:43:14.240 --> 1:43:17.120 still it will end up costing your students so much 1:43:17.280 --> 1:43:20.880 more than the texts which are in the book that 1:43:21.240 --> 1:43:24.120 you can fucking autogenerate the quizzes because the book also 1:43:24.160 --> 1:43:26.400 has a website, and you still get paid, like you're 1:43:26.400 --> 1:43:29.519 doing a job when you're not so yeah yeah and 1:43:29.880 --> 1:43:32.720 bad yeah, and and this stuff has had you know, 1:43:32.760 --> 1:43:35.519 like this has had sort of profound ideological influences, has had, 1:43:35.680 --> 1:43:38.439 you know, it's it's has sort of profound has profound 1:43:38.479 --> 1:43:40.400 influences on like the I mean just sort of the 1:43:40.920 --> 1:43:44.160 way that like ancient Greece and Rome or like conceptualized 1:43:45.400 --> 1:43:50.240 and and and I think this also really has you know, 1:43:50.520 --> 1:43:53.080 it hasn't It makes it very hard to see what 1:43:53.240 --> 1:43:56.320 was sort of actually going on in a place like Athens. 1:43:56.960 --> 1:43:58.840 And you know, a great graper sort of points this 1:43:58.920 --> 1:44:01.480 out right, like this is a sort of like exemplar 1:44:02.479 --> 1:44:05.639 I like, you know, sort of it's as a sort 1:44:05.640 --> 1:44:08.479 of an examplar, like it is literally like the place 1:44:08.560 --> 1:44:12.400 for which like, like most descriptions of sort of democracy 1:44:12.600 --> 1:44:16.720 are are are sort of originally about and Athens. You know, 1:44:16.840 --> 1:44:20.519 we are trained to think of Athens as like, oh, 1:44:20.600 --> 1:44:22.280 it's like well Athens, this is like the first democracy 1:44:22.360 --> 1:44:23.680 or whatever. This is like actually this is actually like 1:44:23.680 --> 1:44:25.960 a very normal sort of society and it's not this 1:44:26.120 --> 1:44:30.240 is a this is an extremely weird society. And what 1:44:30.520 --> 1:44:32.479 what grammar sort of points out about this, right is 1:44:33.439 --> 1:44:36.320 you know the thing that that is you know, Okay, 1:44:36.320 --> 1:44:38.479 so like there have been lots of societies over sort 1:44:38.520 --> 1:44:40.719 of the course of human like the you know, hundreds 1:44:40.760 --> 1:44:42.200 of thousands of years in the sort of like course 1:44:42.240 --> 1:44:45.679 of human history, right that I've had collaborative decision making systems. 1:44:46.840 --> 1:44:49.839 What is very, very weird and almost unique about Athens 1:44:50.720 --> 1:44:54.560 is it has two things put together. It has a 1:44:54.680 --> 1:44:58.880 decision making apparatus where people have equal say, and it 1:44:59.080 --> 1:45:02.479 also has a violent enforcement mechanism to impose the will 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:04.920 of the people on other people and as you know, 1:45:04.960 --> 1:45:06.880 as we'll get to you in a second, also impose 1:45:06.960 --> 1:45:11.160 the will of those people on other people. Most society, Yeah, 1:45:11.240 --> 1:45:13.000 that that that that turns out to be a very 1:45:13.080 --> 1:45:15.559 important part of sort of the evening empire, et cetera. 1:45:15.600 --> 1:45:20.920 Exactly like who the people are? Yeah, this is people. Yeah, 1:45:21.000 --> 1:45:24.000 well we'll get to that in a second too. But 1:45:24.160 --> 1:45:26.960 so so most societies, grape or argues either have one 1:45:27.400 --> 1:45:30.360 or the other of you know, having a having like 1:45:30.680 --> 1:45:33.400 a decision making apparential people of equals say, and a 1:45:33.479 --> 1:45:36.360 violent enforcement mechanism. Right, you have a lot of societies 1:45:36.360 --> 1:45:39.599 with collective decision making apparatus is that involve the entire community. 1:45:40.520 --> 1:45:43.800 But the thing is, these these processes invariably sort of 1:45:43.920 --> 1:45:48.880 like develop some kind of consensus process as a sort 1:45:48.920 --> 1:45:51.320 of expedient to keep the community from just tearing itself 1:45:51.320 --> 1:45:54.080 apart through costs of conflict, right, because like, okay, like 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:58.200 if if you can't actually without the threat of force, right, 1:45:58.320 --> 1:46:01.639 you can't actually have society where you constantly have really 1:46:01.720 --> 1:46:05.960 really controversial decisions being made by like fifty one forty 1:46:06.040 --> 1:46:08.960 nine splits where both sides absolutely hate each other and 1:46:09.040 --> 1:46:10.920 one side as imposed over the other. Right, And in 1:46:11.080 --> 1:46:13.200 order to sort of like keep your like, you know, 1:46:13.280 --> 1:46:16.320 your like city or your state together, right, you have 1:46:16.479 --> 1:46:20.599 to actually create political solutions that you know, people people 1:46:21.240 --> 1:46:23.680 not not that they necessarily like fully agree with, but 1:46:23.760 --> 1:46:25.560 that they're willing to live with. And then you know, 1:46:25.640 --> 1:46:30.120 this generates sort of like various so increasingly elaborate, sometimes 1:46:30.200 --> 1:46:32.519 not very elivable, but you know, various sort of forms 1:46:32.560 --> 1:46:35.959 of consensus processes. On the other hand, you have societies 1:46:36.000 --> 1:46:39.759 with extremely violent enforcement mechanisms. But these societies are almost 1:46:39.880 --> 1:46:43.160 always incredibly hierarchical, and they're ruled either by sort of 1:46:43.200 --> 1:46:47.080 monarchs or oligarchs who just simply do not care about 1:46:47.120 --> 1:46:50.880 the notion that like people should rule themselves, or that 1:46:51.080 --> 1:46:53.680 you know, other like other people who are not like 1:46:53.960 --> 1:46:57.120 the king or the body of oligarchs should have like 1:46:57.360 --> 1:47:00.800 anything even remotely to do with me decisions. And that 1:47:00.960 --> 1:47:04.599 that's what makes Athens really weird, right is Athens has 1:47:04.720 --> 1:47:06.640 both of these things. It has a sort of it 1:47:06.720 --> 1:47:09.560 has like a violent it has a way of like 1:47:10.080 --> 1:47:15.320 imposing decisions on people through violence. And also it has 1:47:15.360 --> 1:47:17.280 this principle that like people should be able to make 1:47:17.320 --> 1:47:21.040 decisions for themselves collectively by you know, like through through 1:47:21.120 --> 1:47:22.960 through a sort of process that doesn't involve them all 1:47:23.000 --> 1:47:28.840 being ruled by just like some guy. And you know 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:30.880 what makes Athens and the other and the other sort 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:33.519 of Greek democracies, because there there are other democracies in 1:47:33.680 --> 1:47:36.120 Greece over the sort of period that this goes on. 1:47:36.760 --> 1:47:39.840 What makes them unique is that, like the people quote 1:47:39.920 --> 1:47:44.160 unquote is composed largely of soldiers, as Gravery puts it. 1:47:44.800 --> 1:47:47.320 In other words, if a man is armed, then one 1:47:47.400 --> 1:47:50.519 pretty much has to take his opinion into account. One 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:53.920 can see how this works, and it's starkists and Xenophon's analysis. 1:47:54.040 --> 1:47:56.719 I've been I have now been told by several dictionary 1:47:56.800 --> 1:47:58.439 sites that this is in fact how you pronounce it. 1:47:58.520 --> 1:48:01.280 I don't know. Anabassis sounds terrible to me, But a 1:48:01.439 --> 1:48:05.400 degree such as the will of and I Don't Know Dictionaries, 1:48:07.439 --> 1:48:10.160 which tells the story of a Greek army of mercenaries 1:48:10.240 --> 1:48:13.040 who suddenly find themselves leaderless and lost in the middle 1:48:13.040 --> 1:48:16.479 of Persia. They elect new officers and then hold a 1:48:16.520 --> 1:48:19.519 collective vote to decide what to do next. In a 1:48:19.600 --> 1:48:22.920 case like this, even if the vote was actually sixty forty, 1:48:23.400 --> 1:48:25.559 everyone could see the balance of forces in what would 1:48:25.600 --> 1:48:29.040 happen if things actually came to blow. Every vote was 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:33.280 in a real sense a conquest. So what we're dealing 1:48:33.360 --> 1:48:35.840 with here right in this is this is sort of 1:48:35.880 --> 1:48:39.920 what democracy is. It's very rawest form. Is you are 1:48:40.000 --> 1:48:42.400 dealing with a group of very heavily armed men who 1:48:42.479 --> 1:48:44.599 need to find a way to convince slightly more than 1:48:44.720 --> 1:48:47.280 half of the group to agree to help them impose 1:48:47.360 --> 1:48:50.160 their rule on everyone else. Do you know what I 1:48:51.040 --> 1:48:54.320 will get you? Do you do? You know who will 1:48:54.360 --> 1:48:56.760 fail to pay your mercenary contract, leaving you stranded in 1:48:56.800 --> 1:48:58.360 the middle of a Persian civil war which you have 1:48:58.439 --> 1:49:03.880 backed the wrong side, Vladimir Putin. Yeah, don't take mercenary 1:49:03.920 --> 1:49:07.800 contracts on Vladimir Putin. And we're back. So, you know, 1:49:08.080 --> 1:49:10.200 as I was sort of saying, well, what we're dealing 1:49:10.240 --> 1:49:11.960 with here. Right, we have a group of a very 1:49:12.000 --> 1:49:14.639 heavily armed men, and they need they need to find 1:49:14.680 --> 1:49:17.559 a way to make you know, they need to find 1:49:17.560 --> 1:49:20.040 a way to make like half of like slightly more 1:49:20.120 --> 1:49:23.439 than half of the group agree with them to impose 1:49:23.479 --> 1:49:26.519 their sort of rule on everyone else. So it's slightly 1:49:26.600 --> 1:49:30.519 more technical terms, right, Athenian, you know, Athenian democracy or 1:49:30.600 --> 1:49:33.720 democracy in the Athenian sense is composed of two code 1:49:33.760 --> 1:49:38.000 determining elements fused together. There is a decision making apparatus 1:49:38.080 --> 1:49:42.439 and an enforcement mechanism that you are code determining because 1:49:42.479 --> 1:49:45.320 the structure of the enforcement mechanism, which is fifty one 1:49:45.400 --> 1:49:47.880 blokes with sticks beating forty nine blokes with sticks over 1:49:47.960 --> 1:49:52.280 the head, also determines the structure of the decision making apparatus, 1:49:53.760 --> 1:49:56.759 which no longer needs to concern itself with the opinion 1:49:56.840 --> 1:49:58.439 of everyone in the group, as they would in a 1:49:58.520 --> 1:50:01.040 society without the ability to sort of employee violence to 1:50:01.120 --> 1:50:04.240 enforce decisions, as long as they have enough people to 1:50:04.360 --> 1:50:08.120 sort of militarily defeat a minority of the group. Right, 1:50:08.360 --> 1:50:10.280 you know, you could you could see how the structure, 1:50:10.320 --> 1:50:12.880 how how the enforcement mechanism is is the thing that 1:50:13.040 --> 1:50:16.439 is structuring what the decision making process has to look like. Right, 1:50:16.680 --> 1:50:19.040 It's the thing that sort of sets its limits. And 1:50:19.479 --> 1:50:22.200 this is something that it turns out, is very very 1:50:22.280 --> 1:50:28.439 sort of important in what a democracy is. The enforcement mechanism, too, 1:50:28.720 --> 1:50:31.440 is also determined by by the sort of decision making apparatus. 1:50:31.520 --> 1:50:35.759 Because the people here are armed soldiers. So the fifty 1:50:35.800 --> 1:50:38.840 one percent that becomes the sort of like basis of 1:50:39.040 --> 1:50:41.800 of of the of democratic majority rule. You know, it 1:50:41.960 --> 1:50:46.479 literally composes the enforcement mechanism itself. And this sort of 1:50:46.560 --> 1:50:50.240 double code determination is the origin of majority rule democracy. Right, 1:50:50.640 --> 1:50:55.280 The institution that you know, in various forms, and we 1:50:55.320 --> 1:50:58.880 will get into this, like this has gotten increasingly less 1:50:58.960 --> 1:51:03.320 and less quote unquote democratic over time, but this, this 1:51:03.520 --> 1:51:06.120 specific form is the thing that has come to sort 1:51:06.120 --> 1:51:10.120 of define what democracy is. If we look at what 1:51:10.320 --> 1:51:14.200 democracy is as a political project, though, right, what we 1:51:14.320 --> 1:51:16.600 see is that the essence of democracy itself is to 1:51:16.720 --> 1:51:20.040 transform the majority from a simple count of military strength 1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:24.560 into into a signal of morality. Right, The citizens of democracies, 1:51:24.600 --> 1:51:26.240 and even even a lot of people who are either 1:51:26.360 --> 1:51:29.160 not citizens of a democracy and live in it, or 1:51:29.240 --> 1:51:32.920 who don't live in a democracy simply believe that is 1:51:33.000 --> 1:51:35.040 the moral right for a majority of people to be 1:51:35.080 --> 1:51:37.920 able to impose the will in a minority. This is 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:39.720 this is just this you know this this this is 1:51:39.760 --> 1:51:42.320 what This is what forms a kind of democratic common sense. Right. 1:51:42.600 --> 1:51:45.679 It is the thing that everyone believes that is sort 1:51:45.680 --> 1:51:48.080 of the basis of everything about how it democracy functions. Right, 1:51:48.720 --> 1:51:53.559 And you know, democracy is almost never framed this way 1:51:53.640 --> 1:51:56.360 explicitly except by you know, every once in a while 1:51:56.360 --> 1:51:58.160 you'll get someone who makes his argument who is like, 1:51:58.960 --> 1:52:00.880 I don't know, they're a billion they're or they're like, 1:52:01.320 --> 1:52:05.160 you know what's his name? I yeah, high E will 1:52:05.240 --> 1:52:07.360 like like if you press him, or like Milton Freeman 1:52:07.520 --> 1:52:09.000 to also well, like if you pressed him, will make 1:52:09.040 --> 1:52:11.320 this argument, right, which is like no one actually wants 1:52:11.320 --> 1:52:14.639 to live in a democracy because you know, like if 1:52:14.680 --> 1:52:17.320 you you know, if if we actually live in a democracy, 1:52:17.400 --> 1:52:21.040 everyone will just like increase our tax rate or like 1:52:21.640 --> 1:52:25.280 virginalized groups will like these are critiques made of the 1:52:25.360 --> 1:52:28.800 United States as well. And yeah, the earliest inception, right, yeah, 1:52:28.840 --> 1:52:29.880 you know, I know what's his name? I think it 1:52:29.880 --> 1:52:31.600 was I think was John Adams. So some of the 1:52:31.680 --> 1:52:34.280 early founders like very explicitly this is their argument against 1:52:34.720 --> 1:52:37.080 like maybe maybe various was the anti democratic arguments against 1:52:37.080 --> 1:52:39.479 giving anyone who didn't have property in the vote, which was, like, 1:52:39.880 --> 1:52:41.920 I think the exact line was, if you give people 1:52:41.960 --> 1:52:44.639 the vote, the first thing they will do is erase 1:52:44.760 --> 1:52:47.880 the debts and redistribute the land. Yeah, which was a 1:52:47.920 --> 1:52:50.760 whole asked rebellion about this, right, Yeah, yeah, I wish 1:52:50.880 --> 1:52:54.320 would have been based good program usually kind of kind 1:52:54.360 --> 1:52:55.920 of messed up in the US where you have to 1:52:55.920 --> 1:53:00.280 ask where that land comes from. But you know, yeah, 1:53:00.320 --> 1:53:02.599 but like, well, this is an argument you really only 1:53:02.680 --> 1:53:05.799 ever hear from people who have like the only minority 1:53:05.880 --> 1:53:07.680 that makes this argument are people who have a ship 1:53:07.760 --> 1:53:11.200 ton of property who are like, oh god, and you know, 1:53:11.280 --> 1:53:13.080 and their their thing here is, well, okay, we need 1:53:13.120 --> 1:53:14.960 to make the system blessed democratic so that people can't 1:53:15.000 --> 1:53:19.160 take our property away, yeah, or give property rights. Yeah. Yeah. 1:53:19.200 --> 1:53:21.560 But on the other hand, the reason for sort of 1:53:21.760 --> 1:53:24.960 pointing out that this is what democracy is in theory 1:53:25.200 --> 1:53:30.400 is really sort of cynical and like reactionary. But the 1:53:30.560 --> 1:53:33.599 thing that the reason this argument works a quote unquote 1:53:33.640 --> 1:53:35.280 works with sort of like you know, with with sort 1:53:35.280 --> 1:53:39.040 of libertarians, is that this equation of sort of numerical 1:53:39.120 --> 1:53:42.479 superiority with the more right to exercise power is like 1:53:42.600 --> 1:53:45.439 the key underlying assumption of democracy. It is the idea 1:53:45.600 --> 1:53:49.920 without which democracy simply sees it the function. Right. But 1:53:50.080 --> 1:53:52.599 but this is something that you know, people don't talk 1:53:52.720 --> 1:53:57.360 about democracy like this, right, The sort of trick of 1:53:57.680 --> 1:54:00.040 the democratic system is to make is to push the 1:54:00.120 --> 1:54:02.680 enforcement mechanism into the background. Right when when when you 1:54:02.760 --> 1:54:05.080 talk about democracy with like regular people, the thing that 1:54:05.120 --> 1:54:07.120 they walk and they normally they think about voting, right, 1:54:08.400 --> 1:54:10.479 but you know, and any any kind of thing that 1:54:10.680 --> 1:54:13.519 is like a collective like decision making process, right, a 1:54:13.600 --> 1:54:17.720 regular person is going to call democracy. And you know, 1:54:17.960 --> 1:54:20.120 there if that's kind of true. But but you know, 1:54:20.520 --> 1:54:22.160 but if if if you want to sort of get 1:54:22.400 --> 1:54:26.720 like technical about it, it's not. And there's an there's 1:54:26.720 --> 1:54:30.639 an incredibly large ideological apparatus that specifically built up around 1:54:31.280 --> 1:54:34.040 making sure that people don't look at the way that 1:54:34.120 --> 1:54:38.200 the that the enforcement mechanism is as much, if not 1:54:38.440 --> 1:54:42.160 more so a sort of key element of what of 1:54:42.280 --> 1:54:44.360 what democracy is than the part where you know, where 1:54:44.360 --> 1:54:46.120 everyone comes together and make it makes a decision that 1:54:46.160 --> 1:54:48.840 everyone talks about all the time. I was watching an 1:54:48.840 --> 1:54:51.600 interview with Gray but the other day the such things 1:54:51.640 --> 1:54:54.400 I do in my free time, and he was talking 1:54:54.440 --> 1:54:59.280 about like democratic confederalism in Northeast Aria, right, and he 1:54:59.360 --> 1:55:03.400 talked about it like democracy without the state, which I 1:55:03.480 --> 1:55:07.760 think is interesting, Like it's him using that vernacular definition. 1:55:08.720 --> 1:55:11.520 So okay, so I'm I'm taking a lot of the 1:55:11.640 --> 1:55:14.240 arguments from self, Graaber wrote, but he he backs away 1:55:14.280 --> 1:55:17.280 from the implications of his own argument, right yeah, and 1:55:17.600 --> 1:55:22.000 goes back to albeit like caveating there were and I 1:55:22.080 --> 1:55:23.640 guess it's worth noting that there are a ton of 1:55:24.080 --> 1:55:29.200 like hugely divergent like we're not like prisoners of etymology, right, 1:55:29.280 --> 1:55:32.800 like like yeah them meaning like I think it's Rosa 1:55:32.920 --> 1:55:37.040 Luxemburg who said government is uh politics in the people's 1:55:37.120 --> 1:55:41.000 interest or something. It's kind of bullshit tanky interpretation of 1:55:42.040 --> 1:55:44.280 like most people would see it as there are these 1:55:44.360 --> 1:55:46.920 broad definitions, you know, and I think this is something 1:55:47.000 --> 1:55:49.640 that like like Asher Taylor's documentary, right, like you know, 1:55:50.080 --> 1:55:52.400 part about that's good, Right, It's like there's I forget 1:55:52.480 --> 1:55:55.320 who says that there's this like kind of famous political 1:55:55.400 --> 1:55:59.040 line that's like I if if if if if there 1:55:59.160 --> 1:56:01.320 if there is a thing that everyone agrees is good. 1:56:01.440 --> 1:56:03.840 No one will agree on what it is, right, like 1:56:04.360 --> 1:56:05.760 you know, and this is something that like, you know, 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:08.200 like I think I think it's it speaks to the 1:56:08.320 --> 1:56:10.680 power I think it's specifically to the power of the 1:56:10.800 --> 1:56:14.400 sort of like like the idea that more people being 1:56:14.520 --> 1:56:19.080 like agreeing with something like gives gives legitimate gives legitimacy 1:56:19.120 --> 1:56:21.520 to that thing, which is that like every like like 1:56:21.640 --> 1:56:26.400 even societies that are like not even like really remotely democratic, right, 1:56:26.480 --> 1:56:29.280 We'll pretend that there's still democracies, right, like the Baptists 1:56:29.320 --> 1:56:33.840 have elections every sort of like psych right, yeah, I mean, 1:56:33.920 --> 1:56:34.960 like like you know, this is this is the thing 1:56:35.080 --> 1:56:37.680 I think isn't very well understood, but like like this 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:40.520 this was also a thing like for example, China has 1:56:40.600 --> 1:56:47.120 this Like Okay, sorry I I I as as as 1:56:47.200 --> 1:56:49.600 I'm preparing to explain this, I'm realizing that the China 1:56:49.640 --> 1:56:52.200 wa like the like Chinese government experts are going to 1:56:52.240 --> 1:56:53.800 get mad at me because I'm I think I think 1:56:53.840 --> 1:56:57.040 I'm about to confuse the United the United Front with 1:56:57.080 --> 1:57:00.880 the United Front Works Department. But so chin China, like 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:06.040 technically speaking, is there are like other parties technically that 1:57:06.120 --> 1:57:10.640 are kind of remnants from like you know, for exact example, 1:57:10.680 --> 1:57:13.240 like the left faction of the KMT, which is like 1:57:13.280 --> 1:57:16.040 the Chinese Nationalist Party. Right, there's there's like technically a 1:57:16.120 --> 1:57:17.920 faction of them that's part of this thing called like 1:57:17.960 --> 1:57:21.280 the United Fronts. There's like technically other parties and they 1:57:21.320 --> 1:57:23.440 have like this like consultative role. It's it's it's an 1:57:23.440 --> 1:57:26.560 incredibly convoluted in the elaborate system, but you know, like 1:57:27.040 --> 1:57:29.720 that whole thing and you you you can find you know, 1:57:29.760 --> 1:57:32.920 like the Chinese system is like not it's not democratic 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:36.000 in the sense of like you can like vote for 1:57:36.120 --> 1:57:39.320 someone or like like okay, like it's not democratic in 1:57:39.360 --> 1:57:41.040 the sense of you can make a vote that will 1:57:41.080 --> 1:57:44.160 make a thing happen, right, you know. And to be fair, 1:57:44.280 --> 1:57:46.520 the US is also not democratic in the sense of 1:57:46.600 --> 1:57:49.040 you can cast a vote and make a thing happen. Right, 1:57:49.360 --> 1:57:51.640 But this is sort of like you know, okay, like 1:57:51.760 --> 1:57:53.480 it is it is a in a society that is 1:57:53.920 --> 1:57:56.120 less democratic than the US, which is sort of astounding 1:57:56.640 --> 1:58:00.160 considering the US like doesn't even have one person one vote. Right. Well, 1:58:00.280 --> 1:58:02.440 we'll get into like republics a bit in a second, 1:58:02.560 --> 1:58:06.520 but like you know, like Chinese like quote unquote, democracy 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:09.560 is like not it has very little to do with 1:58:09.760 --> 1:58:14.200 like the principle of like the mote like fifty one 1:58:14.280 --> 1:58:16.440 percent of the population votes for a thing and it happens. Right. 1:58:16.480 --> 1:58:18.120 But but you know, like if if if you if 1:58:18.120 --> 1:58:19.880 you look, if you look at the sort of rhetoric 1:58:20.000 --> 1:58:22.200 that you that you see from or in the internal 1:58:22.280 --> 1:58:25.800 justification of like like you know, you sort of like 1:58:25.880 --> 1:58:28.320 read chinesecratic documents, so you read sort of like that 1:58:28.400 --> 1:58:30.320 their pr stuff, Like they constantly talk about like, yeah, 1:58:30.320 --> 1:58:33.480 we're gonna make a more democratic society because like that legitimacy, 1:58:33.720 --> 1:58:38.160 like the idea of democracy is really incredibly powerful and enduring, 1:58:38.200 --> 1:58:41.120 and it's something that like even like you know, like 1:58:41.280 --> 1:58:42.840 I mean, like I don't know, like the Saudis don't 1:58:42.880 --> 1:58:45.880 pretend to be a democracy really, but like most of 1:58:45.920 --> 1:58:49.040 the other like golf monarchies have like election ee things right, 1:58:49.120 --> 1:58:51.760 Like it's it's it's an idea that is that is 1:58:52.200 --> 1:58:55.520 enduring and powerful enough that even people who don't agree 1:58:55.560 --> 1:58:59.080 with it are forced to sort of like do this 1:58:59.280 --> 1:59:05.440 pageantry of it. And I think that's really interesting and 1:59:05.880 --> 1:59:10.600 I think it explains a lot of the kind of 1:59:11.680 --> 1:59:13.800 I mean, especially around to occupy. But I think it 1:59:13.880 --> 1:59:18.000 explains a lot of the kind of political movements that 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:21.920 we've been seeing over the last about fifteen years, which 1:59:22.040 --> 1:59:24.520 is I think this is also an explanation for why 1:59:24.760 --> 1:59:27.120 why we see so many riots as as a former 1:59:27.200 --> 1:59:30.160 sorts as a form of politics, and why you get 1:59:30.240 --> 1:59:33.920 these demands that are sort of like, I don't know, 1:59:34.040 --> 1:59:35.920 you you like in the two thousand eleven revolutions, and 1:59:36.320 --> 1:59:38.400 so you sort of also see this now. You get 1:59:38.400 --> 1:59:40.760 a lot of sort of very abstract calls for democracy 1:59:40.760 --> 1:59:44.400 while also doing things that like are quote unquote not 1:59:44.600 --> 1:59:47.600 legitimate in a democratic society, like like rioting is not 1:59:47.720 --> 1:59:49.960 supposed to be sort of like a legitimate political action 1:59:50.160 --> 1:59:52.760 in a society because you know, like this is whole 1:59:52.920 --> 1:59:56.040 like the AA, because there's a system under which violence 1:59:56.120 --> 1:59:59.320 is supposed to be administered, administered right, like you have 1:59:59.400 --> 2:00:01.120 a state. The state is the thing that's supposed to 2:00:01.160 --> 2:00:03.400 do violence. If anyone else does it outside of that, 2:00:03.520 --> 2:00:07.280 they're like, you know, they're an illegitimate extremist. But okay, 2:00:07.440 --> 2:00:09.240 if if we go back to a sort of base 2:00:09.320 --> 2:00:13.600 definition of what democracy is, right, democracy is a collective 2:00:13.640 --> 2:00:18.760 decision making apparatus anti enforcement mechanism. It's like, well, what 2:00:19.000 --> 2:00:22.360 is a riot? Right? A riot is both of those 2:00:22.440 --> 2:00:25.280 things happening at the same time. There are a bunch 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:28.520 of people collectively making a decision and then imposing that 2:00:28.600 --> 2:00:32.879 decision immediately. Yeah, it's ap Thompson who called the Leadites 2:00:32.880 --> 2:00:39.440 collective bargaining by riot. Quite possibly, Yeah, yeah, it's it's 2:00:39.480 --> 2:00:42.560 often like reference now and other stuff like like people 2:00:42.640 --> 2:00:45.600 talk about like you know, like your you're here that 2:00:45.720 --> 2:00:47.440 used all the time. I think they're the origin of 2:00:47.520 --> 2:00:50.880 it is um what is it? Eric Hobsborn could be 2:00:50.920 --> 2:00:55.240 Hobbsborn anyway. Yeah, Famously the Laddites were called collective bargaining 2:00:55.280 --> 2:01:00.200 by riot. Yeah. I think, well, I think there is 2:01:00.200 --> 2:01:05.160 something sort of interesting there about collective bargaining by sort 2:01:05.200 --> 2:01:08.080 of physical force. You know, it's like the decision making 2:01:08.120 --> 2:01:10.800 apparatus is happening outside of the sort of normal bounds 2:01:10.800 --> 2:01:14.120 in which decision making apparatus is supposed to happen. And 2:01:14.560 --> 2:01:16.960 I think I think there's there's a sort of this 2:01:17.080 --> 2:01:20.080 isn't there's another I forget exactly which graver thing this 2:01:20.240 --> 2:01:22.480 is from, but that you know, there's graver this might 2:01:22.480 --> 2:01:25.040 actually this might actually be from Essive about Batman, which 2:01:25.120 --> 2:01:28.040 is pretty funny. Um, what's he said? What's his take 2:01:28.120 --> 2:01:31.640 on Alfred's class status? I don't think he unfortunately, I 2:01:31.680 --> 2:01:33.760 think that's I think that's the one thing he doesn't mention. 2:01:34.480 --> 2:01:36.680 Pretty I'm pretty sure there's no Alfred discourse in it. 2:01:36.880 --> 2:01:40.480 There's lots of other discourse. He calls how is it 2:01:40.760 --> 2:01:44.760 banging it? No, he calls joker. He calls one of 2:01:44.760 --> 2:01:46.640 the Batman villains as Zurza Nite, which I think is 2:01:46.760 --> 2:01:51.680 very funny. Um. Yeah, but you know, okay, he has 2:01:51.800 --> 2:01:56.400 this argument about sort of like okay, how do you 2:01:56.520 --> 2:01:58.920 you know? So? So the the other part of democracy 2:01:59.200 --> 2:02:01.440 is it's is it's the part about the people right, 2:02:01.680 --> 2:02:03.320 And this is always a thing that's that's very much 2:02:03.360 --> 2:02:06.520 in contention, like how do you determine what the people 2:02:06.640 --> 2:02:10.320 quote unquote are? And you know the structure of Athenians 2:02:10.320 --> 2:02:13.600 to society is very much determined by who isn't isn't 2:02:13.600 --> 2:02:16.080 included in the people right, Like you know, women can't vote. 2:02:16.360 --> 2:02:18.760 If you're a slave, you also can't vote. There are 2:02:18.800 --> 2:02:21.520 lots of people who are directly under Athenian rule who 2:02:21.800 --> 2:02:23.680 can't vote, And are you know, not part of the 2:02:23.720 --> 2:02:26.400 people and therefore sort of like and and this this 2:02:26.560 --> 2:02:29.720 is in some sense the origin of like the trajectory 2:02:29.800 --> 2:02:33.640 democracy goes on, right, which is that the trajectory it 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:38.720 goes through his republicanism because you know, like the founders 2:02:38.760 --> 2:02:40.320 of the US, right, if you look at this of 2:02:40.400 --> 2:02:44.360 that style of fifty fifty plus one style majority democracy, right, 2:02:44.720 --> 2:02:46.600 those guys you know, as we talked about, like they 2:02:46.920 --> 2:02:50.720 didn't want a democracy because they thought into democracy people 2:02:50.760 --> 2:02:55.440 would vote against their sort of like aristocratic interests. Yeah, 2:02:55.520 --> 2:02:58.960 and so yeah, like like yeah, it's like, well, all 2:02:58.960 --> 2:03:01.040 these people own slaves, all these people owned a bunch 2:03:01.040 --> 2:03:03.800 of land, all these people like I don't know, or 2:03:03.880 --> 2:03:06.200 like bankers and shit, and they're like, okay, so it's 2:03:06.200 --> 2:03:07.920 gonna be a bad idea if we let people like 2:03:08.040 --> 2:03:10.720 decide what to do with our stuff. So instead, you know, 2:03:10.840 --> 2:03:13.000 they go to this republican in structure. And the republican 2:03:13.040 --> 2:03:16.200 structure is I think very interesting because it takes the 2:03:16.320 --> 2:03:21.800 fifty plus one structure, right, but you know, it abstracts 2:03:21.840 --> 2:03:23.640 it to the point where like the like you like, 2:03:23.800 --> 2:03:27.760 your vote for the most part basically simply does not matter. 2:03:27.960 --> 2:03:30.040 Like every once in a while, like a local election, 2:03:30.120 --> 2:03:31.880 it can do something. But you know, like what what's 2:03:31.880 --> 2:03:37.120 actually happening, right is is you're like you are selecting 2:03:37.200 --> 2:03:40.800 who is going to rule you. And you know, the 2:03:40.920 --> 2:03:43.920 other part of this is that the enforcement mechanism becomes 2:03:43.960 --> 2:03:48.360 autonomous from the people itself, because you know, unlike unlike 2:03:48.360 --> 2:03:51.480 an Athenian thing, where like everyone's either like on a 2:03:51.640 --> 2:03:54.560 ship because they're like are you know, they're part of 2:03:54.600 --> 2:03:56.440 the navy, or they like you know, they can go 2:03:56.560 --> 2:03:59.320 strap on their fucking shield and like plates and grab 2:03:59.480 --> 2:04:02.320 their big ass spear, right and you know, it's like, well, 2:04:02.480 --> 2:04:04.200 this is this is the state, right, the state is 2:04:04.320 --> 2:04:08.920 like fucking Jerry and his friend like Patrickliss or whatever 2:04:09.000 --> 2:04:12.080 the fuck, you know, like form forming a shield wall 2:04:12.160 --> 2:04:14.720 with the like the shields they have at home. You know. 2:04:14.760 --> 2:04:16.520 But but you know, and then that's the thing like 2:04:17.680 --> 2:04:20.520 in in in in sort of like warrior democracies of 2:04:20.560 --> 2:04:21.920 that style, like they're there are short third like the 2:04:21.960 --> 2:04:24.160 Cassatra Republic. I think that's same of it. Um they're 2:04:24.160 --> 2:04:25.840 they're these sort of like they're like you know, they're 2:04:25.840 --> 2:04:27.960 like they're they're they're there. There are republics like this 2:04:28.880 --> 2:04:30.880 or quote unquote republic like this that that that exists 2:04:31.000 --> 2:04:32.640 in in various places in the world where you have 2:04:32.800 --> 2:04:36.720 these sort of like military classes that you know, like 2:04:37.120 --> 2:04:40.400 D fifty plus one, but those people, right, the unfortunate 2:04:40.440 --> 2:04:43.440 mechan mechanism is very is very very direct. In a republic, 2:04:43.920 --> 2:04:46.760 the unfortunate mechanism becomes autonomous, and also the decision making 2:04:46.800 --> 2:04:51.240 apparatus becomes both both of them become autonomous from like 2:04:51.680 --> 2:04:54.040 the people quote unquote who are supposed to be making 2:04:54.040 --> 2:04:58.320 the decisions, and suddenly you have the situation where you know, okay, 2:04:58.400 --> 2:05:01.680 if you live in the US, right, it is very 2:05:01.920 --> 2:05:05.320 very clear that there are lots of things that everyone 2:05:05.440 --> 2:05:09.920 supports that simply like are not is not like like's 2:05:09.960 --> 2:05:13.840 not happening right, Like you know, I mean you can 2:05:13.880 --> 2:05:16.120 look at sort of like universal healthcare, like I mean, 2:05:16.160 --> 2:05:18.720 for exact another example that we could take that's I 2:05:18.800 --> 2:05:21.240 think for poignant right now is like there was a 2:05:21.280 --> 2:05:23.959 pretty recent study on like what percentage of the population 2:05:24.000 --> 2:05:26.920 in the US supports trans people getting like frands affirming healthcare, 2:05:26.920 --> 2:05:29.640 and it was like seventy percent. And then you know 2:05:29.680 --> 2:05:30.800 what I mean, But you know, you look at a 2:05:31.080 --> 2:05:32.560 state by state basis, right, and it's like what we'll 2:05:32.560 --> 2:05:35.880 be talking about this more sort of later, but you know, 2:05:36.320 --> 2:05:38.480 basis like, well that's not fucking happening, right, people are 2:05:38.480 --> 2:05:41.480 just making it illegal. And it's very easy to look 2:05:41.520 --> 2:05:44.240 at this and go like, well, okay, so the principle 2:05:44.320 --> 2:05:46.520 of fifty plus one is being violated, right, Like, this 2:05:46.680 --> 2:05:50.400 is not a democracy. Something else has happens. One sort 2:05:50.400 --> 2:05:54.000 of solution to this is to go back to you know, 2:05:54.320 --> 2:05:57.640 is to very literally go back and ask the question 2:05:57.760 --> 2:05:59.840 who is the people? And and this is this is 2:06:00.320 --> 2:06:02.240 you know a lot of ways what occupy is doing, right, 2:06:02.640 --> 2:06:04.360 Like occupies to answer this is like we are the 2:06:04.480 --> 2:06:07.680 ninety nine percent, right, It's okay, So like there there 2:06:07.760 --> 2:06:10.760 there is a thing that is claiming to be the 2:06:11.040 --> 2:06:15.360 like the demos in in democracy, which is you know, Congress, right, 2:06:15.400 --> 2:06:19.320 but like, okay, Congress trivially is not the people, right 2:06:20.000 --> 2:06:22.200 and at the best a section of them, it is 2:06:22.280 --> 2:06:27.000 definitionally not in any any yeah right, you know, And okay, 2:06:27.040 --> 2:06:28.800 so you have you have lots of versions of this, 2:06:28.920 --> 2:06:30.600 like the American one tends to be a lot of 2:06:30.640 --> 2:06:32.960 people sitting in square, you know, but like like like 2:06:33.040 --> 2:06:36.400 can can actually convening a a something that's kind of 2:06:36.440 --> 2:06:38.000 like a democracy. But even but you know that's the 2:06:38.080 --> 2:06:42.080 everything was like is occupy democracy, right, Like they don't 2:06:42.160 --> 2:06:45.760 have violence as like a political tool. Really, I mean 2:06:46.000 --> 2:06:48.240 this isn't to say that like there wasn't some weird 2:06:48.280 --> 2:06:51.560 shady shit that happens, but like, you know, like they 2:06:51.640 --> 2:06:54.600 don't have the ability to sort of like coerce people 2:06:54.680 --> 2:06:57.840 into accepting like a fifty one percent decision that people 2:06:57.920 --> 2:06:59.800 like genuine they can't lifts, right, So they don't they 2:06:59.840 --> 2:07:04.080 don't really like they in some sense, in challenging democracy, 2:07:04.080 --> 2:07:06.320 they create something that isn't really a democracy, right, They 2:07:06.400 --> 2:07:08.480 create a sort of like elaborate consensus process. And this 2:07:08.640 --> 2:07:12.520 is you know, like if if the Kratos part is 2:07:12.640 --> 2:07:14.200 I'm trying to think of a way of being I 2:07:14.240 --> 2:07:15.920 think for like ten minutes about a way to phrase this, 2:07:16.080 --> 2:07:19.320 but like if the if the strength and power is 2:07:19.360 --> 2:07:22.800 like is the people, and it's even distributed among the 2:07:23.000 --> 2:07:26.800 people as opposed to it's the state, and like if 2:07:26.840 --> 2:07:29.120 some of this theoretical abstraction of the will of the 2:07:29.200 --> 2:07:33.240 majority of the people, then that that leads to a 2:07:33.360 --> 2:07:36.960 consensus almost by definition, right like like if yeah, well, 2:07:37.000 --> 2:07:39.440 I mean I think I think the sort of breaking 2:07:39.520 --> 2:07:43.280 principle here is if you think that it is legitimate 2:07:43.400 --> 2:07:45.960 to use for a group of people to use violence 2:07:46.240 --> 2:07:50.640 to enforce something, and at that point everyone is still armed, 2:07:51.400 --> 2:07:55.320 then then you you you get a fifty plus one structure, right, right. 2:07:55.840 --> 2:07:58.200 But if if you don't think it's legitimate to use 2:07:58.320 --> 2:08:01.080 violence to coerce people into sort of like doing whatever 2:08:01.200 --> 2:08:04.120 the thing is you want to enforce, then by definition 2:08:04.160 --> 2:08:06.840 you get some kind of consensus process. But you know, 2:08:06.960 --> 2:08:09.960 we we have a system that every everyone like thinks 2:08:10.280 --> 2:08:12.400 that what's happening, like you know, in some sense, like 2:08:12.520 --> 2:08:16.560 the ideological principle is that like you know, everyone thinks 2:08:16.640 --> 2:08:18.440 that what's happening is is you have a fifty plus 2:08:18.520 --> 2:08:20.240 one system. And that's where like the legitimacy of the 2:08:20.280 --> 2:08:21.920 system comes from, because like you know, we voted for 2:08:22.000 --> 2:08:25.640 these people, but also it's so clearly not and also 2:08:25.800 --> 2:08:28.200 like the police are so clearly just this sort of 2:08:28.320 --> 2:08:33.160 like roaming like bandit force that is like not even 2:08:33.240 --> 2:08:37.960 like remotely like it like they technically drawlogy missy from 2:08:37.960 --> 2:08:39.240 the people. But like you know, okay, like what what 2:08:39.440 --> 2:08:41.440 what what? What what happens if you try to convene 2:08:41.680 --> 2:08:44.480 an assembly of the people in the US. The answer 2:08:44.560 --> 2:08:46.520 is they beat the shit out of you with sticks 2:08:46.600 --> 2:08:50.760 and then tear gas you and then like start shooting you. Yeah. 2:08:50.880 --> 2:08:52.440 So you know, I mean this is this is sort 2:08:52.440 --> 2:08:53.960 of what you know, like like this, this is what 2:08:54.040 --> 2:08:57.400 occupy prove, right, which is like if if you challenge 2:08:58.000 --> 2:09:01.360 the sort of the claim of the government to represent 2:09:01.400 --> 2:09:03.840 the people, right, because like, who, who the fuck are 2:09:03.920 --> 2:09:06.920 these assholes to like to be like a hey, la, no, 2:09:07.120 --> 2:09:09.000 like we we we are the people. We are sort 2:09:09.000 --> 2:09:10.880 of like the legitimate manifestation of people. If you want 2:09:10.880 --> 2:09:13.240 to do anything, like you have to go through us. Well, 2:09:13.240 --> 2:09:15.080 it's like okay, so like how how how did they 2:09:15.200 --> 2:09:18.200 get that? How did they get that authority? Right? And 2:09:18.280 --> 2:09:19.560 the answer is they did it. They did it by 2:09:19.560 --> 2:09:22.760 staging an armed revolution and that that that's what their religion, 2:09:22.760 --> 2:09:25.000 That's what their actual legitimacy derives from, right, is they 2:09:25.160 --> 2:09:28.920 they want they want the armed revolution, yeah, and violently 2:09:29.040 --> 2:09:32.400 dispossessed people of that before they did that, like pig 2:09:32.600 --> 2:09:35.320 backing off colonialism to do an armed revolution. Yeah, and 2:09:35.440 --> 2:09:38.120 so like okay, but like you know, their their legitimacy 2:09:38.400 --> 2:09:42.720 is incredibly tenuous, right, Like this gives you this question 2:09:42.960 --> 2:09:45.880 of how do you determine like what you know, how 2:09:45.920 --> 2:09:49.120 does a democracy determine what the people are? And one 2:09:49.320 --> 2:09:51.200 one way that you can make a sort of counterclaim 2:09:51.280 --> 2:09:54.320 again against a democracy is by a like physically assembling 2:09:54.360 --> 2:09:56.520 a ship ton of people in a place and going 2:09:56.680 --> 2:09:58.560 like we are like physically we are the people and 2:09:58.640 --> 2:10:00.440 we are going to make decisions. You know that that 2:10:00.520 --> 2:10:02.760 can that can look like occupy with like a seven 2:10:02.840 --> 2:10:05.520 hour meeting about whether where we want to put plants right, 2:10:06.040 --> 2:10:07.640 or it can look then this is you know, you 2:10:07.720 --> 2:10:09.440 get this a bit and occupy but like or it 2:10:09.720 --> 2:10:12.480 can look like you know, here are one hundred thousand 2:10:12.560 --> 2:10:15.160 people like they are going to fight there once you 2:10:15.280 --> 2:10:17.560 just like throw shit at the police until the police 2:10:17.680 --> 2:10:20.560 run away. And you know that that is that that 2:10:20.760 --> 2:10:22.200 that is a that is a thing that like we 2:10:22.320 --> 2:10:25.000 have seen in this country. This this will be like 2:10:25.160 --> 2:10:27.640 another episode, but this this this was a thing that 2:10:27.760 --> 2:10:30.160 happens in Mexico on two thousand and six in Wahaka, 2:10:30.240 --> 2:10:34.080 where people basically ran out the police by literally hundreds 2:10:34.080 --> 2:10:37.440 of thousands of people like wa waking up to a 2:10:37.520 --> 2:10:39.480 bunch of police, like a bunch of police just beating 2:10:39.520 --> 2:10:42.280 the ship out of like a bunch of striking teachers 2:10:42.560 --> 2:10:45.360 and then like picking up a brick and throwing it. 2:10:46.280 --> 2:10:49.080 You see it a little bit, not really but like 2:10:49.520 --> 2:10:53.000 in like pon deemos in Spain if you're familiar with that. Yeah, 2:10:53.640 --> 2:10:55.960 like they kind of their attempt to have people determined 2:10:56.000 --> 2:11:00.440 their policy platform, not lastly a successful one, but like yeah, well, 2:11:00.440 --> 2:11:04.040 I mean interesting, Obama did that too already. Yeah, this 2:11:04.200 --> 2:11:06.360 was the thing Obama had this job. Like one of 2:11:06.600 --> 2:11:08.560 Obama's initial pitches was like he was gonna have there's 2:11:08.560 --> 2:11:10.560 gonna be this like online thing where people could vote 2:11:10.600 --> 2:11:12.880 and like decide in policy things. And he immediately managed it. 2:11:13.000 --> 2:11:15.160 And but damost also immediately like this this is this 2:11:15.240 --> 2:11:18.240 is one of the things that like this is this 2:11:18.400 --> 2:11:19.800 is like one of the ways you try to like 2:11:20.000 --> 2:11:22.440 capture this kind of like yeah, because what what what 2:11:22.560 --> 2:11:24.600 what you're what you're really see like when when riot 2:11:24.680 --> 2:11:27.600 police are like fighting like a bunch of people in 2:11:27.640 --> 2:11:29.920 the street, right, Like what what you're watching is is 2:11:30.200 --> 2:11:33.040 two kinds of democracy fighting with each other. Right You're 2:11:33.120 --> 2:11:35.960 you're you're you're watching a sort of like like you're 2:11:36.000 --> 2:11:39.000 you're you're watching the crowd, which is and you know, 2:11:39.240 --> 2:11:43.360 a very very immediate like for like you know, literal 2:11:43.480 --> 2:11:45.760 form of democracy, right where you know, the crowd makes 2:11:45.800 --> 2:11:49.880 a decision and people do things fighting the police, who 2:11:49.920 --> 2:11:52.040 are like a very you know, the like the police 2:11:52.040 --> 2:11:54.880 are technically like a part of a democratic system, right, 2:11:54.920 --> 2:11:57.720 but the police are just purely the sort of like 2:11:57.920 --> 2:12:00.640 like they're they're they're you know, they they they are 2:12:00.760 --> 2:12:04.160 the violence by which the people rule. And you you 2:12:04.240 --> 2:12:06.640 are watching, but you're watching these two things sort of 2:12:06.720 --> 2:12:10.920 like clash with each other. And you know, I mean, 2:12:10.960 --> 2:12:13.720 I I think I think one of the sort of 2:12:13.840 --> 2:12:18.280 like products of of of the way that republicanism like 2:12:18.440 --> 2:12:21.240 specifically developed or like a publicanism in the sense of 2:12:21.320 --> 2:12:26.440 like this is a republic not a democracy like yeah 2:12:26.560 --> 2:12:28.800 small like yeah small r but also in the sense 2:12:28.880 --> 2:12:32.640 of like, okay, so instead of you voting on things 2:12:32.760 --> 2:12:37.280 directly like you know, you vote for some asshole who 2:12:37.960 --> 2:12:42.680 yeah the police funding yeah whatever, right, like that that 2:12:42.960 --> 2:12:46.040 sort of like unmooring of of of the means of 2:12:46.200 --> 2:12:48.880 violence from the people, which was you know, which was 2:12:49.040 --> 2:12:51.840 is the essence of democracy good or bad? Right? And 2:12:52.000 --> 2:12:53.960 and and I would also say, like you know that 2:12:54.120 --> 2:12:56.480 can go like that that sort of like having having 2:12:56.600 --> 2:12:59.040 violence and democracy, like you know, violence and decision making 2:12:59.040 --> 2:13:01.440 being paired together, Like that's not always a good thing. 2:13:01.440 --> 2:13:03.320 That can go really really badly, right, Like you know, 2:13:03.320 --> 2:13:05.880 because like like for example, like a race riot, right, 2:13:05.960 --> 2:13:09.360 like like a clan march right is technical, like is 2:13:09.440 --> 2:13:12.800 technically an expression of democracy, right it is you know, 2:13:12.960 --> 2:13:15.120 it is a group of people convening themselves as the 2:13:15.240 --> 2:13:19.160 people and then doing an action. And you know, and 2:13:19.640 --> 2:13:21.400 like I this has been something I've been sort of 2:13:21.920 --> 2:13:24.040 been forced to think about a lot with the anti 2:13:24.080 --> 2:13:26.800 trans laws, which is that like trans people are, like 2:13:27.440 --> 2:13:31.480 you know, the most optimistic estimate you could like have 2:13:32.040 --> 2:13:33.920 is like maybe two and a half percent of the 2:13:33.960 --> 2:13:35.720 population if you assume based a bunch of people who 2:13:35.760 --> 2:13:37.720 are trans and don't know that they're trans, right, Like 2:13:39.200 --> 2:13:42.040 you know, And and if if you were two and 2:13:42.080 --> 2:13:44.720 a half percent of the population in a in a 2:13:44.800 --> 2:13:47.880 fifty plus one system, it is very easy for fifty 2:13:47.920 --> 2:13:50.040 one p there is no physical way that you can 2:13:50.240 --> 2:13:53.280 have like if fifty plus one percent of the population 2:13:53.320 --> 2:13:55.600 decides to kill you, while there's nothing you can do, right, 2:13:55.720 --> 2:13:58.080 Like there's no there's no amount of like voting that 2:13:58.200 --> 2:14:00.960 you can do that would make you not die because 2:14:01.080 --> 2:14:03.400 that that's the sort of like the terinad of the 2:14:03.440 --> 2:14:06.080 majority or whatever like or like that. Yeah, yeah, have 2:14:06.200 --> 2:14:10.080 you familiar with like the argument against utilitarianism that like 2:14:10.840 --> 2:14:12.880 the greatest good for the greatest number, or the greatest 2:14:12.880 --> 2:14:15.840 happiness for the greatest number, if you're looking to serve 2:14:15.880 --> 2:14:17.840 the greatest happiness the greatest number. If like ten people 2:14:17.960 --> 2:14:21.440 get two units of happiness from beating one person to 2:14:21.520 --> 2:14:25.560 death with sticks, yeah, yeah, Like she can't experience as 2:14:25.640 --> 2:14:30.600 much sadness as the experienced happiness, like democratic impulse in action. Yeah, 2:14:30.760 --> 2:14:32.720 and you know, like this is the thing that is 2:14:32.760 --> 2:14:34.920 again what we're talking about, like is normally brought up 2:14:34.920 --> 2:14:37.280 by like incredibly corrupt, corrupt and sort of vital the 2:14:37.400 --> 2:14:39.200 leads who want to protect their status. But like it 2:14:39.440 --> 2:14:41.280 is also you know, and like this is part of 2:14:41.320 --> 2:14:44.720 the reason why, for example, the US just fucking puts 2:14:44.920 --> 2:14:48.520 like immigrants to camps, right because they can't fucking vote, right, Like, 2:14:48.600 --> 2:14:51.840 they're they're not part of like quote unquote the people, right, 2:14:51.920 --> 2:14:53.800 Like there are large sections of the populations who are 2:14:53.880 --> 2:14:57.800 just you know, like booted from this entire process. Right. Um, 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:01.320 this is an argument that William C. Anderson and Zoe 2:15:01.400 --> 2:15:03.600 sa Moods you make in the book as blackness resistance, 2:15:03.600 --> 2:15:05.280 which is that like yeah, like black people like fucking 2:15:05.320 --> 2:15:07.800 are not part of the ship, right, Like they're not 2:15:08.240 --> 2:15:12.440 like a constituentive like part of the people TM right yeah. 2:15:12.440 --> 2:15:15.840 And you know this they they they call this, they 2:15:15.880 --> 2:15:18.800 call this the anarchism of blackness um, which is this 2:15:18.880 --> 2:15:22.160 sort of like it's it's a position of being like 2:15:22.320 --> 2:15:25.120 removed as like a legitimate sort of like subject in 2:15:25.200 --> 2:15:29.080 the state. Who can you know, exercise you're like democratic 2:15:29.200 --> 2:15:30.560 rights or whatever the fuck it is, like yeah, okay, 2:15:30.560 --> 2:15:31.840 like lots of people have never had this, and you 2:15:31.880 --> 2:15:36.080 know this, even even even in this sort of like 2:15:36.760 --> 2:15:39.560 you know, relatively egalitari like you know, like there there 2:15:39.640 --> 2:15:42.920 have been like parts of the US, like especially the 2:15:43.000 --> 2:15:44.560 early US. Right. You have your like sort of like 2:15:44.640 --> 2:15:46.440 New England town council Ryan, It's like, well, what is 2:15:46.480 --> 2:15:48.160 what is your New England Town Council vote to do. 2:15:48.240 --> 2:15:50.440 It's like, well, the votes to send out the fucking 2:15:50.480 --> 2:15:54.040 militia to kill indigenous people, right, Like, you know, even 2:15:54.160 --> 2:15:57.200 you can even even even when the US has functioned 2:15:57.280 --> 2:16:01.520 as something that is closer to like a like democracy TM, 2:16:01.600 --> 2:16:03.120 where like the means of violence and the means of 2:16:03.240 --> 2:16:06.400 sort of decision making are actually placed in direct directly 2:16:06.480 --> 2:16:08.480 in people's hands, right, Like that doesn't always go well, 2:16:09.760 --> 2:16:13.000 but yeah, you know, but like you know, we we 2:16:13.120 --> 2:16:17.280 we we we have now developed a like we we 2:16:17.400 --> 2:16:19.680 we we developed a system that has like the worst 2:16:19.720 --> 2:16:22.400 of every single parts of every single aspect of this. 2:16:22.600 --> 2:16:25.360 Right we're like, okay, so we we we have fifty 2:16:25.400 --> 2:16:29.120 plus one as the sort of like legitimating factor, but 2:16:29.360 --> 2:16:32.160 also fifty beside of the population plus one does not 2:16:32.320 --> 2:16:35.080 actually vote for a thing. It is possible for like 2:16:35.879 --> 2:16:37.880 more than half of the popular It's possible for a 2:16:37.920 --> 2:16:40.160 majority of the population to vote for a businessio candidate 2:16:40.200 --> 2:16:42.880 you get a different one, right, like, yeah, it's possible. 2:16:43.000 --> 2:16:45.480 Like we've seen this, like so many fucking elections have 2:16:45.600 --> 2:16:48.760 had this now like two in my lifetime, like like 2:16:49.520 --> 2:16:52.560 and and also also we have we we we have 2:16:52.720 --> 2:16:55.800 the other part of it, which is that we also 2:16:56.000 --> 2:16:58.920 have like the the we have the other democratic principle 2:16:58.959 --> 2:17:01.520 of like you should be able to worse a political 2:17:01.560 --> 2:17:04.560 opinion by violence. Yeah, we got that in space. Yeah, 2:17:05.080 --> 2:17:08.360 and you know again, guess guess gets like guess guess 2:17:08.400 --> 2:17:10.360 who fucking guests to make that decision. It's not fifty 2:17:10.400 --> 2:17:13.039 plus one of you, Like, it's a bunch of assholes 2:17:13.040 --> 2:17:16.520 and suits and like six cops. Yeah, I think a 2:17:16.560 --> 2:17:18.440 good way to view the US. It's like a bunch 2:17:18.480 --> 2:17:24.440 of landowners made a system where land votes and people don't. Yeah, well, 2:17:24.440 --> 2:17:25.960 and then and then you know, and then and then 2:17:25.959 --> 2:17:28.400 they went about making sure that like even if the 2:17:28.480 --> 2:17:30.720 land does vote for a thing, if it's not for yourself, 2:17:31.040 --> 2:17:34.840 it doesn't happen or seventy Yeah, there's seventy five weird 2:17:34.920 --> 2:17:38.320 dudes in between your vote and anything actually happening. Yeah, 2:17:39.600 --> 2:17:41.879 which is how you get like this kind of constitutional 2:17:42.000 --> 2:17:44.520 magic the trumpets are always trying to do because like 2:17:44.640 --> 2:17:47.880 it's not actually like that far from reality right there, 2:17:48.000 --> 2:17:50.600 there are like seventeen magic incantations I have to get 2:17:50.680 --> 2:17:52.520 said after you put your ballot in the box, and 2:17:52.600 --> 2:17:56.360 then an old white dude's in charge again. Yeah, but 2:17:56.600 --> 2:17:58.480 you know, I think, like, you know, the US system 2:17:58.640 --> 2:18:03.400 is like it's stunningly bad, like it's it's one of 2:18:03.520 --> 2:18:06.440 it's like a it's a really dogshit like tooroughly written 2:18:06.480 --> 2:18:09.800 democratic system like it is it is designed not to 2:18:09.920 --> 2:18:13.280 function like that that that was actually the point. Yeah, yeah, 2:18:13.800 --> 2:18:16.400 there's like a there's a king, a thing that like 2:18:16.840 --> 2:18:20.400 you shouldn't have, like the fur the president is supposed 2:18:20.400 --> 2:18:21.960 to it's supposed to be a king, right, Like I 2:18:22.000 --> 2:18:23.640 think like if if, if, if you go back and 2:18:23.760 --> 2:18:26.200 read like what the balance of powers was supposed to 2:18:26.240 --> 2:18:27.840 be was like there they're doing the Roman thing of 2:18:27.959 --> 2:18:30.320 like you need like you need to combine to king 2:18:30.360 --> 2:18:32.240 in oligarchy and a democracy. And it's like, well, okay, 2:18:32.280 --> 2:18:33.680 so we have like a fucking king who could just 2:18:33.879 --> 2:18:38.360 like kill people. It's great, it's great, it's great, but 2:18:38.480 --> 2:18:40.400 you know, you know, okay, So the I think, I 2:18:40.440 --> 2:18:43.560 think the the the broad total argument that that I 2:18:43.640 --> 2:18:47.040 want to make here is that what we have been 2:18:47.200 --> 2:18:50.320 seeing over the last about fifteen years, right with the 2:18:50.360 --> 2:18:52.880 certain movement of the squares, with the series of uprisings 2:18:52.920 --> 2:18:55.520 that we saw I mean, you know in twenty twenty 2:18:55.560 --> 2:18:57.480 the US, but also like all over the world from 2:18:57.480 --> 2:19:01.240 about twenty eighteen to I mean, some of they're still 2:19:01.240 --> 2:19:04.440 some only them are still going like now right, you know, 2:19:04.720 --> 2:19:07.440 it's it's it's it's it's been a reaction to sort 2:19:07.480 --> 2:19:10.240 of this, right, it's it's it's been a reaction to 2:19:12.080 --> 2:19:17.000 democracy as a legitimating principle not matching like democray, like 2:19:17.080 --> 2:19:20.040 you know, even even even what the principle is supposed 2:19:20.080 --> 2:19:22.840 to be, and then people going out into the streets 2:19:22.879 --> 2:19:26.360 and doing democracy, and the sort of clash between like 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:30.040 democracy and theory and democracy and action mostly has resulted 2:19:30.040 --> 2:19:33.520 in democracy in action winning because it's it turns out 2:19:33.520 --> 2:19:35.800 the thing about Republicans is that they're really really really 2:19:35.959 --> 2:19:40.680 good at creating like military apparatuses that are very hard 2:19:40.720 --> 2:19:45.920 to defeat by just purely fighting them. Yeah, sadly. Yeah, 2:19:46.280 --> 2:19:52.960 But however, Comma, sometimes they lose, and you know, and 2:19:54.160 --> 2:19:56.640 as as as as the as the old Ira thing goes, 2:19:56.959 --> 2:19:59.160 they have to get lucky every time. We only have 2:19:59.200 --> 2:20:04.640 to get lucky one, so you know, keep collectively bargaining 2:20:04.800 --> 2:20:08.400 by riot. Yeah, what the fuck else are you gonna do? 2:20:08.600 --> 2:20:12.560 You know, like vote like yeah, yea yeah, yeah, like 2:20:13.640 --> 2:20:15.760 your life depends on it. Kids, You can vote if 2:20:15.760 --> 2:20:18.560 you want to write like they're there are instances in 2:20:18.640 --> 2:20:21.680 which it might meaningfully reduce the cruelty of the state 2:20:21.720 --> 2:20:25.280 a little bit in some places sometimes, but yeah, it's 2:20:25.320 --> 2:20:27.840 not gonna it's not gonna like take away the central 2:20:27.920 --> 2:20:33.360 fucking connade of the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, so I 2:20:33.800 --> 2:20:36.720 do do do do do due democracy by rioting. That 2:20:36.959 --> 2:20:42.440 is our official legal position. This is legally I'm legally 2:20:42.520 --> 2:20:46.120 non actionable, but also legally actionable at the same time. 2:20:46.240 --> 2:20:52.080 This is called dialectrics. And yeah, this, this is what 2:20:52.160 --> 2:20:55.240 they could happen here. Find us in the places. I 2:20:55.480 --> 2:21:00.400 don't find us in the places. David Graber, I do that. 2:21:01.000 --> 2:21:03.360 Read The Never Was a West. It's great. Nobody reads it. 2:21:03.560 --> 2:21:06.760 It's it's really good. People have been asking for grade 2:21:06.840 --> 2:21:08.440 book because we keep talking about him. So you have 2:21:08.520 --> 2:21:11.440 read I never read The Never Was a West. Read 2:21:11.480 --> 2:21:15.560 Towards an Anarchist anthropology bullshit jobs. It's good to start. 2:21:15.600 --> 2:21:18.720 If you read, if you, if you, if you, if you, 2:21:18.760 --> 2:21:20.440 if you want to be the real grave head and 2:21:20.520 --> 2:21:23.000 read something that fucking no one has read, go read 2:21:23.400 --> 2:21:26.520 towards an anthropological Theory of value. I read into one 2:21:26.560 --> 2:21:28.000 of my cudages It's super Market the other day and 2:21:28.000 --> 2:21:31.040 we were talking about that good book. No one has 2:21:31.040 --> 2:21:51.000 ever read it. Uh yeah, reads more gray, but yeah, 2:21:51.160 --> 2:21:53.520 it could happen here. If that's the podcast that you're 2:21:53.560 --> 2:21:57.560 listening to, it's a news podcast. About ship falling apart. 2:21:58.480 --> 2:22:01.480 That's the only intro you're going to yet, because Garrison 2:22:01.760 --> 2:22:05.680 is right now in the city of Atlanta, Georgia, reporting 2:22:05.879 --> 2:22:10.760 on the continuing Stop Cop City protests. Garrison's done a 2:22:10.959 --> 2:22:14.160 number of scripted episodes covering these in detail over the 2:22:14.240 --> 2:22:16.640 last year and change. They're in the thick of it 2:22:16.800 --> 2:22:18.760 right now, so I'm just going to bring them and 2:22:19.040 --> 2:22:21.320 a friend on to talk about what has been happening 2:22:21.520 --> 2:22:26.320 this week. Yes, that's your que this week. This week 2:22:26.480 --> 2:22:29.040 is a special week because this is the fifth week 2:22:29.120 --> 2:22:31.720 of action that has happened here in Atlanta as a 2:22:31.760 --> 2:22:33.800 part of these Top Cop City and if in the 2:22:33.800 --> 2:22:36.360 Atlanta Force movement. This episode is going to be like 2:22:37.000 --> 2:22:40.480 a midweek update because this this week of action is 2:22:40.520 --> 2:22:44.760 still very much ongoing. There's still many many days that 2:22:45.120 --> 2:22:48.520 that thinks can't happened, but a lot of a lot 2:22:48.560 --> 2:22:51.560 has already happened in these in these first few days anyway. 2:22:51.720 --> 2:22:53.560 So we're going to kind of do a quick a 2:22:53.600 --> 2:22:56.320 quick little update and then a more comprehensive piece will 2:22:56.360 --> 2:22:59.040 be later down the line, but with me here to 2:22:59.280 --> 2:23:02.280 help to talk about what's what's what's gone down so far? 2:23:03.040 --> 2:23:06.600 Is someone from the Atlantic Community Press Collective Clark, Hello, 2:23:06.760 --> 2:23:09.560 welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me on, 2:23:10.680 --> 2:23:14.920 So for being on. Yeah, we've we've been kind of 2:23:15.040 --> 2:23:16.960 we we've been. We've been kind of teamed up the 2:23:17.040 --> 2:23:21.000 past few days here as as many many, many things 2:23:21.120 --> 2:23:25.560 both silly and serious, have have taken place across Atlanta 2:23:26.320 --> 2:23:30.920 of safety US. Yeah, that it's always nice to have 2:23:31.080 --> 2:23:34.640 friends when you're watching jack booted thugs go fucking ape 2:23:34.680 --> 2:23:36.760 shit with all of their new toys. And I mean, 2:23:36.800 --> 2:23:38.800 I think that is part of the Week of Action idea, 2:23:39.000 --> 2:23:41.760 is getting as many people here as possible and hopefully 2:23:42.320 --> 2:23:46.760 some of that makes makes some people uh more safe. Um, 2:23:47.560 --> 2:23:49.640 that's something that we'll probably talk more more in detail 2:23:49.720 --> 2:23:53.280 later when we have kind of hindsight. H But I 2:23:53.360 --> 2:23:56.240 guess today let's let's just start on what's kind of 2:23:56.320 --> 2:23:59.800 happened so far chronologically, I guess starting on Saturday. We 2:24:00.280 --> 2:24:04.280 I met you Saturday for a rally at Gresham Park. 2:24:04.440 --> 2:24:07.119 I think it's where we first met up this week. Yes, 2:24:07.320 --> 2:24:11.039 we met at the rally at Gresham Park, which had 2:24:11.080 --> 2:24:14.200 about I would say an hour's worth of speeches before 2:24:14.600 --> 2:24:18.080 they kicked off a march down the bike path from 2:24:18.280 --> 2:24:22.400 Gresham Park to what the activists called Welanni People's Park, 2:24:23.280 --> 2:24:27.480 which is the side of the protest beforehand. So the 2:24:27.600 --> 2:24:32.240 forest around it had been unoccupied since the raid in 2:24:32.840 --> 2:24:36.560 January that saw the killing of Torture Guita. So this 2:24:36.760 --> 2:24:42.400 was the first sort of permanent return to the forest. 2:24:42.760 --> 2:24:47.240 So we took a I don't know forty minute march 2:24:47.640 --> 2:24:51.760 down the path and then landed in Weelani People's Park 2:24:51.879 --> 2:24:55.600 that had one more little round of chants with a 2:24:55.720 --> 2:24:59.520 promise to defend the forest, and then they broke off 2:24:59.600 --> 2:25:04.160 and everything was a It was a nice, really relaxing day. Yeah, 2:25:04.240 --> 2:25:06.200 it was. It was a pretty positive start to the 2:25:06.240 --> 2:25:11.920 week of action. People essentially retook Kulani People's Park and 2:25:12.200 --> 2:25:16.440 started to go into the forest once again. Camp got 2:25:16.520 --> 2:25:19.840 set up in the forest. Um. Lots of people from 2:25:19.920 --> 2:25:23.200 both in town and folks from out of town started 2:25:23.360 --> 2:25:26.720 started to camp in the woods again. Um. And then 2:25:26.800 --> 2:25:30.680 in the hours after this small march, people started to 2:25:30.920 --> 2:25:34.760 prepare for the music festival, which was planned like a 2:25:35.080 --> 2:25:37.600 like a few hundred feet away from a Bulhani People's Park, 2:25:37.640 --> 2:25:41.080 I guess inside inside like a more like open field area, 2:25:41.600 --> 2:25:44.400 and music festival went off without a hitch. The first 2:25:44.480 --> 2:25:47.840 day it was pretty pretty rad. Yeah. I think there 2:25:47.959 --> 2:25:50.560 was about five hundred people for five hundred people that 2:25:50.680 --> 2:25:54.400 first night of the music festival. Yeah, and the vibes 2:25:54.440 --> 2:25:56.840 were great. Everyone was having a fun time. I think 2:25:56.840 --> 2:26:01.200 it went on until about one am, and I don't 2:26:01.240 --> 2:26:04.760 think the first day could have gone better. I think 2:26:04.800 --> 2:26:08.280 I went on till about four am. Okay, well I 2:26:08.360 --> 2:26:10.360 went to bed at one am. I did not go 2:26:10.480 --> 2:26:12.960 to bed at one am. I was at the music 2:26:13.000 --> 2:26:17.640 festival quite quite a bit longer. I'm quite a bit older, 2:26:17.680 --> 2:26:19.080 and I think that was the reason I had to 2:26:19.200 --> 2:26:25.000 leave so yearson doesn't understand things like needing sleep yet 2:26:25.760 --> 2:26:27.840 for another year or two before they hit that sweet 2:26:27.879 --> 2:26:33.080 sweet wall. So so true. Then then I'll have to 2:26:33.160 --> 2:26:38.440 find another teenager to go to journalism every like four 2:26:38.560 --> 2:26:40.680 or five years. You justn't find a new one. Yeah, 2:26:40.840 --> 2:26:47.160 just just keep re upping like Leo DiCaprio. Perfect. So 2:26:49.280 --> 2:26:52.240 So the first the first day was was pretty good. 2:26:52.280 --> 2:26:55.160 There was no no substantial police response that I saw. 2:26:55.720 --> 2:26:58.640 Police kind of left people alone in the forest. The 2:26:58.760 --> 2:27:03.080 march from Gresham Park was fine, um, and people got 2:27:03.160 --> 2:27:05.760 to spend a night in the woods again, which you 2:27:05.800 --> 2:27:07.960 know had had not had that many people in the 2:27:08.040 --> 2:27:11.560 woods in like months. Um, I mean this is this 2:27:11.840 --> 2:27:15.400 is it should be said, like camping in a music festival, 2:27:15.520 --> 2:27:19.199 but it's like relatively high risk because people have gotten 2:27:19.560 --> 2:27:22.840 significant charges just for camping in the woods in the past. Yes, 2:27:22.920 --> 2:27:26.160 and the very recent past part part some some of 2:27:26.200 --> 2:27:29.840 the warrants that that have been issued that justify the 2:27:30.720 --> 2:27:34.800 charges like domestic terrorism have included things such as sleeping 2:27:34.959 --> 2:27:37.920 in a hammock with someone else in the forest, and 2:27:38.080 --> 2:27:42.040 that's the reason why they're getting charged as a domestic terrorist. So, yeah, 2:27:42.160 --> 2:27:44.480 it is a music festival, people are camping. It's kind 2:27:44.520 --> 2:27:48.560 of chill, but also there's absolutely this kind of this 2:27:48.760 --> 2:27:52.480 just like this like a ever present kind of fear 2:27:53.040 --> 2:27:57.440 that despite what is being done being pretty pretty kind 2:27:57.480 --> 2:28:00.120 of like normal and not not not not in of 2:28:00.200 --> 2:28:03.840 itself militant radical, still the consequences from the state are 2:28:03.879 --> 2:28:07.200 kind of always always looming, which kind of leads us 2:28:07.240 --> 2:28:13.480 to Sunday, Yeah, which picks up exactly where we left on. Yeah. 2:28:13.520 --> 2:28:17.240 So I got there around noon on Sunday, I think, 2:28:17.480 --> 2:28:21.040 and the first thing we see is a bouncy castle, large, 2:28:21.320 --> 2:28:24.000 large bouncy castle in front of the music festival. It 2:28:24.080 --> 2:28:27.920 has a big stop Coop City banner, um, massive multi 2:28:28.000 --> 2:28:32.800 colored bouncy castle. People are having a pretty pretty good time. Yeah. 2:28:32.840 --> 2:28:34.840 As soon as they finished setting up the bouncy castle, 2:28:34.920 --> 2:28:39.600 it was it was filled and everyone. I think there 2:28:39.600 --> 2:28:42.360 were about seventy five one hundred people just set up 2:28:42.879 --> 2:28:46.800 on blankets around the stage. Initially, I think in the 2:28:46.879 --> 2:28:49.119 next few hours that definitely grew to be there being 2:28:49.400 --> 2:28:52.360 hundreds and hundred, hundreds of people returning to the music 2:28:52.400 --> 2:28:55.160 festival for the second day. Um, I mean, I think 2:28:55.400 --> 2:29:00.400 the march on Saturday was anywhere between like I saw 2:29:00.520 --> 2:29:03.720 estimates of anywhere between five hundred two thousand people. Music 2:29:03.760 --> 2:29:06.680 festival seems to be like over five hundred people. And 2:29:06.840 --> 2:29:08.640 then on the second day at the music festival, it 2:29:08.720 --> 2:29:11.199 slowly grew in size to again being hundreds and hundreds 2:29:11.200 --> 2:29:14.400 of people and it's Yeah's it started off just kind 2:29:14.400 --> 2:29:18.360 of continuing on with the music, continuing on with the people, 2:29:18.760 --> 2:29:22.240 people having having nice times in the woods. I walked 2:29:22.280 --> 2:29:26.600 around the campsites, got had conversations with people talking about 2:29:27.200 --> 2:29:31.600 all sorts of anarchy related things, and then they're slowly 2:29:31.640 --> 2:29:33.960 throughout the day. I think that this was posted on 2:29:34.040 --> 2:29:36.800 social media as well. There was a plan for a 2:29:37.120 --> 2:29:41.280 rally at five pm to meet on part of part 2:29:41.320 --> 2:29:44.000 of the field that the music festival was also happening on. 2:29:44.920 --> 2:29:48.080 By the time that happened, people people met up. The 2:29:48.200 --> 2:29:52.480 group that that kind of converged was in a mix 2:29:52.600 --> 2:29:56.280 of black block camo blocks, so like people like covered 2:29:56.520 --> 2:30:01.480 head to toe and various various camo print And they 2:30:01.600 --> 2:30:04.320 set off from from the RC Field where the music 2:30:04.360 --> 2:30:07.080 festival was at. So they left they what they went 2:30:07.160 --> 2:30:10.720 down Bouldercrest Road to the section of the woods called 2:30:10.760 --> 2:30:14.120 the power Line Cut. So to understand what is going 2:30:14.200 --> 2:30:16.760 on here, you kind of have to understand some of 2:30:16.760 --> 2:30:20.440 the geography of the Wilani Forest. So we have like 2:30:20.600 --> 2:30:24.119 the the Wilani People's Park parking lot and that immediate 2:30:24.240 --> 2:30:26.200 kind of kind of camp site. This is this is 2:30:26.280 --> 2:30:30.120 like the the easternmost part, and then there's the RC 2:30:30.280 --> 2:30:32.520 Field which is just like right right next to that 2:30:32.760 --> 2:30:35.560 to the west, and then even west of that is 2:30:36.120 --> 2:30:39.720 Entrenchment Creek, and Entrenchment Creek kind of divides up this 2:30:40.120 --> 2:30:43.480 this uh, this dissection of the forest and then everything 2:30:43.600 --> 2:30:48.400 everything west of Entrenchment Creek is generally referred to as 2:30:48.520 --> 2:30:52.080 like the as the old Atlanta prison Farm area and 2:30:52.440 --> 2:30:55.480 the power line cut is is pretty close to to 2:30:56.000 --> 2:30:58.880 to the creek and to that that is kind of 2:30:58.920 --> 2:31:03.040 where this this prison farm section is, and this is 2:31:03.120 --> 2:31:04.560 this is an area of the woods that cops have 2:31:04.680 --> 2:31:09.360 been more rigorous about policing, more rigorous about surveilling, more 2:31:09.440 --> 2:31:13.120 rigorous about having kind of constant surveillance and people on 2:31:13.160 --> 2:31:15.280 the ground. It's it's estimated that they're spending over forty 2:31:15.320 --> 2:31:17.840 thousand dollars a day running security on this part on 2:31:18.000 --> 2:31:23.400 on this part of the woods. So yeah, yeah, so 2:31:23.680 --> 2:31:26.160 see people for that amount of money, they could hire 2:31:26.680 --> 2:31:30.280 like more people than are on the police force if 2:31:30.320 --> 2:31:34.760 they just used fiber. That's really that's really the tactic 2:31:34.800 --> 2:31:37.680 they ought to be embracing. And I think if they 2:31:37.720 --> 2:31:40.280 had used fiber, they might have had enough people to 2:31:40.680 --> 2:31:44.560 counter the protesters, but to catch the baby overbloated police salaries, 2:31:44.640 --> 2:31:47.320 they only had like twenty people. Yeah, they did not 2:31:47.400 --> 2:31:50.840 have any. So this group set down Bouldercrest, They they 2:31:50.920 --> 2:31:54.000 marched up the power line cut. They laid out like 2:31:54.160 --> 2:31:58.440 tire tire barricades in the street um and then upon 2:31:58.600 --> 2:32:03.720 them marching marching on the power line cut. Uh after 2:32:04.040 --> 2:32:07.920 after they arrived near the near near the police surveillance 2:32:08.040 --> 2:32:10.080 set up that we that we that we just mentioned 2:32:10.600 --> 2:32:14.440 some of some of the equipment somehow burst into flames. Um. 2:32:14.840 --> 2:32:18.160 People have blamed like shoddy construction. People have said that, 2:32:18.400 --> 2:32:22.879 you know, sometimes equipment just does that. Uh but yes, 2:32:23.000 --> 2:32:25.800 no so people people set set a whole bunch of 2:32:26.160 --> 2:32:29.440 police infrastructure on fire, set some construction equipment on fire 2:32:29.560 --> 2:32:33.160 that's being used to destroy sections of the forest where 2:32:33.160 --> 2:32:35.960 they wanted to build a cop city. Um. Police were 2:32:36.000 --> 2:32:39.320 repelled with stuff like rocks and fireworks. The cops that 2:32:39.360 --> 2:32:42.959 were stationed there very quickly retreated. I think, Uh, lots 2:32:43.080 --> 2:32:44.720 lots of stuff was set on fire. There was the 2:32:45.560 --> 2:32:48.240 surveillance tower was set on fire. A bulldozer was set 2:32:48.320 --> 2:32:51.320 on fire. Well, I mean it's it's winter. People need 2:32:51.440 --> 2:32:55.440 fires to camp come from I understand. Have a UTV 2:32:55.680 --> 2:32:57.360 was some kind of like like a like big like 2:32:57.879 --> 2:33:02.000 big like trailer like storage unit thing was set on fire. Yes, 2:33:02.080 --> 2:33:04.160 and the cops were very worried about that. They didn't 2:33:04.200 --> 2:33:07.680 know if there was flammable material inside that you you 2:33:07.720 --> 2:33:11.800 wouldn't store flammable materials and an easily accessible area. Oh, 2:33:11.879 --> 2:33:14.120 we shut down an entire interstate because we did that 2:33:14.440 --> 2:33:18.440 a few years ago. So we would in Atlanta, Atlanta, 2:33:18.520 --> 2:33:23.119 would all of Atlanta collectively, um so so so this happened. 2:33:23.680 --> 2:33:28.360 A thermal chopper from a thermal police helicopter was was 2:33:28.440 --> 2:33:34.359 watching all of this. Um. Honestly, the footage is pretty interesting. 2:33:34.920 --> 2:33:37.960 It is it is worth it is worth discussing how 2:33:38.440 --> 2:33:41.920 this type of how how this type of surveillance works. Um. 2:33:42.120 --> 2:33:45.000 Almost the same thermal cameras that are on the Bay 2:33:45.080 --> 2:33:48.760 ractire drones that Turkey makes. By the way, it's it's 2:33:48.800 --> 2:33:53.160 it's it's pretty. It's pretty boomerang. Yeah, oh absolutely no, 2:33:53.280 --> 2:33:56.160 it's it's it's it's pretty. It's pretty frightening with their 2:33:56.320 --> 2:33:59.840 ability to track into into track individual people. UM. I 2:34:00.040 --> 2:34:02.680 also think it's worth because there's video of the cops 2:34:02.760 --> 2:34:06.040 being pelted with stuff, including fireworks. I think it's worth 2:34:06.120 --> 2:34:09.320 noting that, like, while it is unpleasant to be pelted 2:34:09.400 --> 2:34:11.200 with the kind of stuff the cops were pelted with, 2:34:11.680 --> 2:34:14.600 you and I have both been pelted with numerous fireworks 2:34:14.640 --> 2:34:17.119 of similar size and it is not a serious threat 2:34:17.160 --> 2:34:20.880 to life and limb. No, no, there, we survived, but 2:34:21.320 --> 2:34:25.039 it's modestly unpleasant, but the cops that were there were 2:34:25.080 --> 2:34:26.880 not very happy about it. They put out calls for 2:34:27.040 --> 2:34:30.840 officer in need of support and for all available units 2:34:30.879 --> 2:34:34.359 in the greater Atlanta area to converge on the forest. 2:34:35.360 --> 2:34:39.040 People who were who who marched to this to the 2:34:39.120 --> 2:34:42.800 section of the power line cut started to disperse throughout 2:34:42.920 --> 2:34:46.320 the woods, and I was backed by the road watching 2:34:46.360 --> 2:34:49.400 this from hundreds and hundreds of feet away because I 2:34:49.840 --> 2:34:51.880 did not need to go up there. That would not 2:34:51.959 --> 2:34:56.320 have been helpful in any way. But as this was happening, 2:34:56.720 --> 2:34:59.280 a whole bunch of police cars zoomed by, so I 2:34:59.400 --> 2:35:02.160 started fall those cars. I went back to the music festival. 2:35:02.720 --> 2:35:07.160 Um I met up with with some with some other 2:35:07.600 --> 2:35:10.520 other media people that I was that I was communicating with, 2:35:11.400 --> 2:35:13.840 and then I got a text message saying that a 2:35:14.000 --> 2:35:16.640 cop showed up in the parking lot of the Wallani 2:35:16.760 --> 2:35:19.240 People's Park with an air fifteen. I start making my 2:35:19.320 --> 2:35:22.280 way over, and then as as I'm running across the 2:35:22.440 --> 2:35:26.160 music festival, I see a whole bunch of police at 2:35:26.200 --> 2:35:28.720 the parking lot for the music festival itself at the 2:35:29.080 --> 2:35:32.000 at the RC Field, So I don't I don't make 2:35:32.080 --> 2:35:34.039 my way over to the Wallannie People's park parking lot 2:35:34.240 --> 2:35:36.200 where there's the air fifteen, because instead I see way 2:35:36.320 --> 2:35:39.720 way more police closer closer to where I am, so 2:35:40.240 --> 2:35:45.640 I staged there. Minutes later police start running into into 2:35:45.680 --> 2:35:49.720 the music festival. They start tackling seemingly anyone who's like 2:35:49.800 --> 2:35:52.200 by themselves and that they could like get their hands on. 2:35:52.360 --> 2:35:56.520 It didn't it didn't seem incredibly targeted. Um, it's this 2:35:56.720 --> 2:35:58.720 is something that will kind of ill Pope. I'll probably 2:35:58.840 --> 2:36:02.040 like discuss in more detail once we have slightly more hindsight. 2:36:02.440 --> 2:36:06.520 But a lot of the arrests did not seem specifically targeted. 2:36:07.200 --> 2:36:09.880 In the bail hearings from just yesterday as a time 2:36:09.920 --> 2:36:12.360 of recording, they said they were going after people who 2:36:12.400 --> 2:36:17.040 had mud on their clothing and like it it rains 2:36:17.160 --> 2:36:22.199 a day before the music festival. Incredible detective work. Only 2:36:22.480 --> 2:36:25.480 only a true terrorist would have mud. I think a 2:36:25.520 --> 2:36:27.600 month and a half ago Ryan Millsap tore up the 2:36:27.640 --> 2:36:30.320 parking lot, so it rained the day before, and anyone 2:36:30.360 --> 2:36:32.800 who would walk through that parking lot or the trail 2:36:32.879 --> 2:36:35.640 system had to walk through mud. You're walking through what also? 2:36:36.000 --> 2:36:38.200 People are just sitting on the dirt at the music 2:36:38.320 --> 2:36:42.920 festival like, so yes, I mean this might also include 2:36:43.160 --> 2:36:45.800 like useful advice for people in the future, because if 2:36:45.840 --> 2:36:48.400 the movie Predator was telling me the truth and it's 2:36:48.440 --> 2:36:51.520 never lied to me yet, coding yourself entirely in mud 2:36:51.840 --> 2:36:55.440 makes thermal vision no longer function uh huh uh huh. Yeah, 2:36:57.640 --> 2:37:00.200 so please please start to tack with people. It was 2:37:00.600 --> 2:37:02.400 definitely they were going after people who were like by 2:37:02.480 --> 2:37:09.040 themselves and yeah, people with mud. The police alleged in 2:37:09.120 --> 2:37:11.640 their in their warrants that were read out at the 2:37:11.640 --> 2:37:14.200 bail hearing that they were going after people who had 2:37:14.320 --> 2:37:17.040 metal shields, and they said that almost everyone they arrested 2:37:17.120 --> 2:37:19.800 was arrested carrying a metal shield. Now here's a few 2:37:19.879 --> 2:37:22.640 funny notes about that. There was not a single metal 2:37:22.760 --> 2:37:28.120 shield present at all. There were a few small plastic shields, 2:37:28.400 --> 2:37:32.000 not a single metal one. And in and looking through 2:37:32.080 --> 2:37:34.560 all of the footage of arrests, the footage that I 2:37:34.680 --> 2:37:37.400 have that's been sent to NLG, footage to other people 2:37:37.440 --> 2:37:41.520 have had no one was arrested carrying a shield, let 2:37:41.600 --> 2:37:45.320 alone a metal one. So a whole bunch of the 2:37:45.680 --> 2:37:50.560 reasoning for these arrests is incredibly suspect. Police so rated 2:37:50.640 --> 2:37:53.680 once tackled, arrested, like five people carried them out. They 2:37:53.800 --> 2:37:56.560 rated again, and this is where they started launching tear 2:37:56.640 --> 2:38:01.440 gas into the forest. I got gassed decently bad. It 2:38:01.600 --> 2:38:03.120 was not It was not very fun. The first time 2:38:03.120 --> 2:38:07.480 I've gotten tear gased in years, old, old old memories. 2:38:07.760 --> 2:38:11.119 Um and during this time kiss from a dear friend. 2:38:11.480 --> 2:38:15.240 So that was exactly what I was thinking, and I 2:38:15.400 --> 2:38:18.720 did not. I brought gas masks to Atlanta, but I 2:38:18.840 --> 2:38:22.640 didn't bring them on the Sunday because because usually you 2:38:22.680 --> 2:38:26.080 don't bring gas masks to a music festival. Yeah, I mean, 2:38:26.160 --> 2:38:28.400 the thing about gas, the thing about tear gas and 2:38:28.840 --> 2:38:32.080 gas masks is that, like when you're used to getting 2:38:32.080 --> 2:38:35.000 tear gassed, it's really easy to have them handy and 2:38:35.160 --> 2:38:37.600 get them on. When like you're not used to being 2:38:37.680 --> 2:38:40.400 tear gas, you're probably not going to bring it with you. Yeah. 2:38:40.680 --> 2:38:44.200 So people got people. Some people in the forest got 2:38:44.240 --> 2:38:46.680 gassed pretty bad. I mean. The whole point was to 2:38:46.720 --> 2:38:48.880 sew confusion, make it so that people could not hide 2:38:48.920 --> 2:38:50.720 out in the woods. It was it. It's to make 2:38:50.800 --> 2:38:53.760 people scatter, runaway so that they can be tackled and arrested. 2:38:54.240 --> 2:38:57.280 M One person that was a National Lawyer's Guild, a 2:38:57.360 --> 2:39:00.720 legal observer was arrested. Um, they're also at the Southern 2:39:00.800 --> 2:39:05.000 Poverty Law Center. This whole boy, this person was the 2:39:05.160 --> 2:39:08.039 only person arrested that I'm aware of that was released 2:39:08.200 --> 2:39:13.359 on bail. Everybody else, everyone else is being held indefinitely. 2:39:13.800 --> 2:39:16.720 That actually includes there was a second legal observer who 2:39:16.800 --> 2:39:19.959 was not wearing the hat. So during the bail hearings 2:39:20.040 --> 2:39:22.920 yesterday there Laura said that they were a legal observer, 2:39:23.160 --> 2:39:25.800 but because they weren't wearing the hat and because they 2:39:25.800 --> 2:39:28.360 were not local, they were not given bail. It was 2:39:28.440 --> 2:39:30.600 reported there was like around like thirty five arrests the 2:39:30.760 --> 2:39:34.640 night of yes Initially, APD released a press release that 2:39:34.760 --> 2:39:37.840 said there were thirty five detainees, which at the time 2:39:37.879 --> 2:39:41.160 they released it was a very interesting term because we 2:39:41.320 --> 2:39:44.119 thought thirty five people had just been arrested and were 2:39:44.200 --> 2:39:49.480 on their way to jail. Yeah, but just about forty 2:39:49.520 --> 2:39:52.640 five minutes after that, twelve of those thirty five were released. 2:39:53.440 --> 2:39:58.040 So this was very curious. There is a lot of 2:39:58.120 --> 2:40:02.600 theories going on for what has happened. I'm I'm just 2:40:02.760 --> 2:40:05.440 going to relay what I heard when I was listening 2:40:05.480 --> 2:40:08.800 to the bail hearings yesterday. So a defense lawyer for 2:40:08.959 --> 2:40:11.560 some of the people arrested said yesterday during the bail 2:40:11.680 --> 2:40:16.240 hearing that, to his understanding, the twelve people that were 2:40:16.360 --> 2:40:20.680 detained but not arrested were people from Atlanta, and the 2:40:20.879 --> 2:40:23.560 twenty three people who got arrested and charged or were 2:40:23.600 --> 2:40:28.720 not from Atlanta. And part of so what police could 2:40:28.760 --> 2:40:32.560 be doing here is basically, if you're from Atlanta, will 2:40:32.800 --> 2:40:35.080 we will id you, but we're not going to actually 2:40:35.160 --> 2:40:37.440 arrest and charge you, but we will arrest and charge 2:40:37.480 --> 2:40:39.240 you if you're from out of state, so they can 2:40:39.320 --> 2:40:42.800 continue this outside agitator narrative, so they can say every 2:40:42.879 --> 2:40:46.880 single person arrested after this protest was from out of state. 2:40:48.640 --> 2:40:50.680 The cops in the media have done a lot of 2:40:50.840 --> 2:40:55.560 weird collusion regarding the events of Sunday night. They've conflated 2:40:55.720 --> 2:40:58.680 the location of the arrests a lot. Police want to 2:40:58.800 --> 2:41:02.080 make this seem like they arrested people at a crime scene, 2:41:02.160 --> 2:41:05.520 that like they arrested people as they were like torching 2:41:05.600 --> 2:41:08.760 construction equipment, which just is. It's true. They arrested people 2:41:09.000 --> 2:41:12.240 almost seemingly at random at a music festival that was 2:41:12.320 --> 2:41:15.240 like hundreds and hundreds of feet away like it was. 2:41:15.280 --> 2:41:17.160 It is. It is not an it is not an 2:41:17.200 --> 2:41:21.120 easy walk from from the power line cut to the 2:41:21.200 --> 2:41:23.040 music festival, because not only do you have to go 2:41:23.160 --> 2:41:27.040 through some like pretty pretty harsh brush some woods, um 2:41:27.120 --> 2:41:31.000 and like jump over a pretty large creek of the alternatively, 2:41:31.080 --> 2:41:33.440 you have to like walk down a road, which nobody did. 2:41:34.000 --> 2:41:36.520 So the police have done a police and and and 2:41:36.720 --> 2:41:40.400 like local media like large like large corporate local media 2:41:40.760 --> 2:41:43.600 have have tried to make it seem like that this 2:41:44.240 --> 2:41:46.600 that this music festival thing is just like a red herring, 2:41:46.959 --> 2:41:49.039 that it's it's not it's not important. But a lot 2:41:49.120 --> 2:41:51.000 of the people that that were that were that were 2:41:51.080 --> 2:41:54.320 arrested seem seemed to be people that were just enjoying 2:41:54.480 --> 2:41:58.400 this music festival. So twenty three of them um have 2:41:58.480 --> 2:42:01.879 been charged with domestic terrorism. Most of those people are 2:42:01.959 --> 2:42:06.480 being held indefinitely for now. There the the bail hearing 2:42:06.600 --> 2:42:09.039 is going to get appealed to the to the Superior Court, 2:42:09.440 --> 2:42:12.720 where we'll see if that changes anything. The judge said 2:42:12.720 --> 2:42:14.800 that they were not presented with any evidence that these 2:42:14.840 --> 2:42:17.680 people did anything wrong, but they still decided to not 2:42:17.800 --> 2:42:21.440 give them bail. Um that the judge the reasoning for 2:42:21.600 --> 2:42:25.240 that was that the judge thought that people who did 2:42:25.280 --> 2:42:27.800 not have any local ties to the community could be 2:42:27.879 --> 2:42:30.959 a flight risk, and some people who did have local 2:42:31.040 --> 2:42:34.160 ties to the community, they said, still were a threat 2:42:34.240 --> 2:42:37.240 to the community somehow, despite many of them not having 2:42:37.280 --> 2:42:41.160 any prior convictions, not not having any prior arrests. It's 2:42:41.320 --> 2:42:44.480 it seemed it seemed pretty suspect during during during the 2:42:44.560 --> 2:42:46.520 during the bail hearing, but that was that was most 2:42:46.560 --> 2:42:50.560 of Sunday night. UM Eventually police kind of surrounded and 2:42:50.680 --> 2:42:54.160 kettled the group of people that that was still still 2:42:54.280 --> 2:42:57.720 at the music festival hours after these arrests happened. They 2:42:57.800 --> 2:42:59.880 gave like a five minute dispersal warning, and then they 2:43:00.000 --> 2:43:02.640 gave a ten minute dispersal warning. Eventually, cops let most 2:43:02.720 --> 2:43:05.120 of the people who like gathered who were gathered right 2:43:05.160 --> 2:43:07.240 in front of the stage leave. That was probably like 2:43:07.360 --> 2:43:10.280 fifty people at that point because people throughout the night, 2:43:10.320 --> 2:43:13.840 we're trying to leave um as as police were, you know, 2:43:13.959 --> 2:43:16.760 like rating the forest. Some people were able to some 2:43:16.840 --> 2:43:19.800 people were just like let go and like we're able 2:43:19.840 --> 2:43:24.200 to leave. Others were detained almost arbitrarily. It's it's it's 2:43:24.240 --> 2:43:27.240 it's hard to say so that that was the first 2:43:27.360 --> 2:43:30.240 two days of the Week of Action, and it felt 2:43:30.280 --> 2:43:34.120 like a week. What happened the next day? So yeah, 2:43:34.280 --> 2:43:39.240 the non violent direct actions and then the Monday the events. 2:43:39.440 --> 2:43:42.040 Oh no Monday, yeah, because that was only that was 2:43:42.080 --> 2:43:45.480 only the second Monday. Is the city council meeting that 2:43:45.560 --> 2:43:48.200 we were in for eight hours? Yes? Yes, So Monday 2:43:48.360 --> 2:43:51.840 there was there was an interfaith coalition of clergy that 2:43:52.520 --> 2:43:55.880 uh that held a press conference outside of city hall. 2:43:56.400 --> 2:44:00.560 UM basically like endorsing the Stop Cops City movement or 2:44:00.600 --> 2:44:04.720 like Clark how how would you describe what happened? So 2:44:04.800 --> 2:44:08.520 there were a couple of elements to the clergym we'll 2:44:08.560 --> 2:44:12.360 just call it in action. The first thing was they 2:44:13.080 --> 2:44:16.240 presented a letter with over two hundred other clergy members 2:44:16.400 --> 2:44:20.480 who had signed that denouncing cop City, calling for an 2:44:20.680 --> 2:44:24.120 independent investigation into the killing of Tortuguita, and calling for 2:44:24.200 --> 2:44:28.160 an independent investigation into the use of domestic terrorism charges 2:44:28.280 --> 2:44:33.080 to chill free speech. And then during that press conference, 2:44:33.400 --> 2:44:38.840 uh Miko Shabon called for land back and called for 2:44:39.040 --> 2:44:44.199 landback of in the Wilannie Forest to the Muskogee people 2:44:44.720 --> 2:44:51.440 who stored in um coordination with the Legacy black residents 2:44:51.480 --> 2:44:55.320 of the area. Yeah, so they were both like talking 2:44:55.360 --> 2:44:58.040 about the need to stop cop city, but also providing 2:44:58.040 --> 2:45:01.520 a plan on how this land could be used. This 2:45:01.920 --> 2:45:03.920 land that is that is leased by the city. It 2:45:04.120 --> 2:45:07.320 is on decap County. After this press conference, some of 2:45:07.520 --> 2:45:11.040 these people from the coalition gave public comment during the 2:45:11.080 --> 2:45:15.080 city council. That was most of the events on Monday 2:45:15.200 --> 2:45:18.440 that I can recall. Oh, there was the there was 2:45:18.480 --> 2:45:22.360 the poem in the forest that night and that was 2:45:22.560 --> 2:45:24.480 that was very enjoyable. That was kind of the first 2:45:24.520 --> 2:45:27.760 time people like tried to go back into the forest 2:45:27.920 --> 2:45:31.680 since since the Sunday night raid. Um. And I think 2:45:31.760 --> 2:45:34.440 that started to slowly boost morale again. Yeah, and I 2:45:34.520 --> 2:45:36.720 think we should talk about also after the raid, there 2:45:36.760 --> 2:45:39.959 are a few, um, really unique things that happened. There 2:45:40.000 --> 2:45:41.920 were a lot of people who didn't have housing and 2:45:42.040 --> 2:45:45.880 they were housed by local activists. Um. There was the 2:45:45.920 --> 2:45:49.120 bus network was set up to transport people from the 2:45:49.280 --> 2:45:53.200 site where everyone was getting arrested to somewhere safe. They 2:45:53.360 --> 2:45:57.440 moved breakfast offsite to a different location. So there was 2:45:57.480 --> 2:46:00.360 a lot of work done in continuing the Week of 2:46:00.400 --> 2:46:03.520 action and providing some sort of infrastructure for all of 2:46:03.520 --> 2:46:05.760 these people who had come into town and didn't have 2:46:05.800 --> 2:46:09.520 anywhere else to go. Yeah. Once again, the resiliency on 2:46:09.640 --> 2:46:13.720 display was impressive, and people's ability to adapt to the 2:46:14.480 --> 2:46:22.960 ever evolving situation was was tested and people adapted pretty well. Tuesday, 2:46:23.320 --> 2:46:27.720 there was there was starting to be like typical non 2:46:27.840 --> 2:46:30.880 violent direct actions happening throughout to downtown. A whole bunch 2:46:30.879 --> 2:46:34.240 of banner drops happened around highways and interstates around Atlanta. 2:46:34.840 --> 2:46:41.840 People were detained for yes, US three people were briefly 2:46:41.920 --> 2:46:44.920 detained at the site of of of a banner drop, 2:46:45.600 --> 2:46:49.080 but throughout throughout the day there was people handing out 2:46:49.160 --> 2:46:55.040 letters to people, to folks like the CEO of Norfolk 2:46:55.080 --> 2:47:00.000 Southern Norfolk Southern Alan Shaw, and then similar similar type 2:47:00.120 --> 2:47:02.560 of like non violent direct action were happening. A small 2:47:02.640 --> 2:47:06.560 a small march was led from Woodruff Park to At 2:47:06.720 --> 2:47:10.680 and T and Georgia pacific Um. There was like maybe 2:47:11.320 --> 2:47:14.120 maybe fifty I think fifty is an accurate number. Fifty 2:47:14.160 --> 2:47:17.520 people gathered to march. Well, there were fifty marchers gathered 2:47:17.800 --> 2:47:21.320 and then like one hundred and twenty police officers in 2:47:21.440 --> 2:47:25.320 the in the in the surrounding area, massive, massive police 2:47:25.360 --> 2:47:31.080 presence police caused a huge, a huge disruption to downtown. 2:47:31.680 --> 2:47:34.920 Um that's something we've seen kind of ever since the 2:47:35.040 --> 2:47:39.200 Sunday raid. The police have been incredibly heavy handed in 2:47:39.320 --> 2:47:42.680 their response to every single thing, whether that be people 2:47:42.800 --> 2:47:45.160 handing out flyers or whether that be you know, uh, 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:49.240 you know, people at people at at at a music festival. Um, 2:47:49.520 --> 2:47:52.039 whole a whole bunch of police were mobilized to stay 2:47:52.160 --> 2:47:54.800 night near the forest, like a hundred again, like one 2:47:54.920 --> 2:48:00.720 hundred and twenty cops at least three or four different agencies, bearcats, helicopters. 2:48:01.800 --> 2:48:06.040 I think there's it's it's unclear what they were doing. Um, 2:48:07.040 --> 2:48:09.240 this is something that we might we might speculate further 2:48:09.400 --> 2:48:11.600 on once we have hindsight. When I when I put 2:48:11.640 --> 2:48:14.800 together my my kind of my kind of a more 2:48:15.040 --> 2:48:18.240 more intense deep dive. And then uh, then today the 2:48:18.720 --> 2:48:21.600 thing that me and Clark just got back from. How 2:48:21.640 --> 2:48:26.240 do you want to explain today's today's events? So today 2:48:26.840 --> 2:48:31.000 was a lot of leaflet handing out and marching. It 2:48:31.120 --> 2:48:34.120 was a smaller group than the march yesterday. I would 2:48:34.120 --> 2:48:36.320 say there was like twenty twenty five people. Yeah, like 2:48:36.520 --> 2:48:40.240 it started off being like only only but like a dozen. Um, 2:48:40.400 --> 2:48:42.000 and it's it's it's slowly grew to like maybe like 2:48:42.120 --> 2:48:45.480 two or three dozen. But yeah, small, small, small group 2:48:45.520 --> 2:48:47.280 of people. Yeah, small group of people. And when they 2:48:47.360 --> 2:48:50.920 met at noon, they met and they broke into three 2:48:50.959 --> 2:48:53.280 different groups. Yeah. And so the group that we followed 2:48:53.480 --> 2:48:56.720 was just, uh, they walked a little northward and started 2:48:56.720 --> 2:48:59.720 passing out flyers at the Petrie Center Marta station. They 2:48:59.760 --> 2:49:04.480 would to all three entrances, and each group warranted its 2:49:04.640 --> 2:49:09.680 own police surveillance unit, massive police surveillance units. It was 2:49:09.720 --> 2:49:14.199 following everybody around. There was there was a SWAT vehicle 2:49:14.560 --> 2:49:19.920 parked right right outside where these people were handing out flyers. Um, 2:49:20.440 --> 2:49:23.680 it was. There was there was like fifty to one 2:49:23.760 --> 2:49:27.160 hundred cops flanking people on like from from like, from 2:49:27.200 --> 2:49:30.640 like different sides. Eventually all the all of the smaller 2:49:30.680 --> 2:49:35.000 groups that kind of branched off converged again and police 2:49:35.080 --> 2:49:38.960 then gave a dispersal warning to people who were on 2:49:39.040 --> 2:49:41.600 the sidewalk, on a sidewalk outside of a hard rock 2:49:41.760 --> 2:49:46.320 cafe who were handing out flyers. Okay, well they mean 2:49:46.720 --> 2:49:48.840 they were in that case, they may have been protecting 2:49:48.920 --> 2:49:50.640 people because you want to you want to get folks 2:49:50.680 --> 2:49:54.160 as far away from the hard Rock Cafe as possible garrison. 2:49:55.840 --> 2:49:59.600 And that's a real dangerous I was, I was campaigning 2:49:59.640 --> 2:50:02.560 for all of the press gathered to meet afterwards. That's 2:50:02.560 --> 2:50:09.160 a hard rock cafe between the hard that one so scarce. 2:50:09.200 --> 2:50:11.879 And I watched you at the Rainforest Cafe. You barely 2:50:11.959 --> 2:50:16.240 made it through that dessert. That was different. That was different. 2:50:16.640 --> 2:50:21.560 I did. I did get food poisoning from that Rainforest Cafe. 2:50:21.879 --> 2:50:25.400 I will, I will continue to claim. And I woke 2:50:25.520 --> 2:50:28.120 up with a headache for an under an inexplicable reason, 2:50:29.040 --> 2:50:31.160 not because you were carrying around a bottle of bourbon 2:50:31.240 --> 2:50:39.040 throat bourbon and or a milkshake or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, So, 2:50:40.520 --> 2:50:43.040 so cops gave a dispersal warning to people who were 2:50:43.560 --> 2:50:46.480 not not in fact blocking a sidewalk. We're simply handing 2:50:46.480 --> 2:50:49.960 out flyers. People were still walking everywhere. Um, so they 2:50:50.000 --> 2:50:51.480 basically moved to a different section of the of the 2:50:51.520 --> 2:50:55.600 sidewalk and cops kind of left him alone. Um. Near by, 2:50:55.959 --> 2:50:58.840 a group of indigenous activists from the Indian Collective. I 2:50:58.879 --> 2:51:01.320 believe it's what it's it's actually a Muscoge Nation, the 2:51:01.400 --> 2:51:07.040 Muscogee Nation. Uh went went to a meeting that the 2:51:07.240 --> 2:51:12.200 Mayor of Atlanta, Andre Dickens, was having nearby. H Clark, 2:51:12.360 --> 2:51:14.360 I think you know slightly more about what happened here 2:51:14.400 --> 2:51:18.280 than I do. Yes, So several of the indigenous activists entered. 2:51:18.640 --> 2:51:21.959 So where he was having this meeting is a mall 2:51:24.440 --> 2:51:28.520 in true Atlanta fashion. Um. So they entered the mall 2:51:28.600 --> 2:51:31.760 and they they found where he was in the building, 2:51:32.640 --> 2:51:38.359 and uh so, Miko Colonel Chabon delivered a letter essentially 2:51:38.480 --> 2:51:43.920 evicting the city of Atlanta from the Wielannie Forest. Uh 2:51:44.600 --> 2:51:47.840 So they got in without the police noticing. Um and 2:51:48.000 --> 2:51:52.960 then the moment they got out, a large squad of 2:51:53.040 --> 2:51:57.400 police mobilized. They were they were not happy how close 2:51:57.480 --> 2:52:01.120 people got to the mayor. So at this point we 2:52:01.200 --> 2:52:03.520 don't know what the full reaction of that's going to be. 2:52:03.959 --> 2:52:06.840 We do know that the mayor ran away from accepting 2:52:06.879 --> 2:52:09.400 the letter and then one of I believe they handed 2:52:09.440 --> 2:52:15.800 it to one. There are a few few more beautiful 2:52:15.840 --> 2:52:19.560 sites than a mayor running away. Now more mayors need 2:52:19.640 --> 2:52:23.640 to spend time fleeing from their peoples. So I think 2:52:23.720 --> 2:52:26.000 this this episode comes out. I think like like late 2:52:26.080 --> 2:52:29.640 Thursday night, Friday morning, UM, Thursday afternoon there. So, like 2:52:29.879 --> 2:52:33.400 we are, we are recording this Wednesday, there's plans for Thursday, 2:52:33.440 --> 2:52:35.080 there's gonna be there's gonna be a large march at 2:52:35.120 --> 2:52:37.720 six pm. I believe, there's gonna be a youth rally 2:52:37.760 --> 2:52:42.760 at Saturday, and then on Sunday morning, um Manuel torn 2:52:43.160 --> 2:52:47.000 Tortoquita's family is holding a memorial for tort in the 2:52:47.040 --> 2:52:51.920 Wilani forest. Um where I've been told that they're going 2:52:52.000 --> 2:52:55.280 to spread towards ashes inside the woods and that is 2:52:55.360 --> 2:52:59.040 kind of the last thing that's going to happen. Um 2:52:59.360 --> 2:53:01.640 And so those are the things that have not not 2:53:01.920 --> 2:53:06.360 not yet took place. Um So, but we've we've explained 2:53:06.400 --> 2:53:10.040 in pretty in pretty spruciating detail some of some of 2:53:10.120 --> 2:53:12.760 what's happened so far. So yeah, that that's kind of 2:53:12.840 --> 2:53:14.880 the current current state of on the ground at the 2:53:14.920 --> 2:53:17.640 week of action. UM I guess, Robert, do you have 2:53:17.640 --> 2:53:20.360 any questions for Clerk as someone who's kind of been 2:53:20.440 --> 2:53:25.840 on the ground in Atlanta for years covering top pop city. Yeah, 2:53:26.200 --> 2:53:30.160 I mean, I'm curious what over the last few weeks, 2:53:30.560 --> 2:53:34.840 like you've you've had some direct clashes with the police 2:53:34.959 --> 2:53:38.279 that have ended in a variety of ways, broadly speaking, 2:53:38.840 --> 2:53:41.200 Is there anything that you're you're kind of leaning towards 2:53:41.280 --> 2:53:43.560 this doesn't work? And is there anything you're kind of 2:53:43.640 --> 2:53:47.560 leaning towards? This seems to work really well. So there 2:53:47.640 --> 2:53:50.840 is something to be said for the more aggressive actions, 2:53:50.920 --> 2:53:55.119 and I think they serve their purpose. And there's definitely 2:53:55.160 --> 2:53:59.080 something to be said for the forest occupation UM it 2:53:59.320 --> 2:54:04.080 continued the movement until there was a ground swell of support. 2:54:05.480 --> 2:54:08.879 So at this point, I think the actions have sort 2:54:08.920 --> 2:54:13.240 of switched gear into more non violent direct actions as 2:54:13.280 --> 2:54:16.000 we're seeing this week, and I think that those actions 2:54:16.040 --> 2:54:20.720 will will continue. I'm sure the anarchistic contingent will continue 2:54:20.760 --> 2:54:26.400 to do some other more aggressive, shall we say, direct actions? Yeah, 2:54:26.480 --> 2:54:29.200 and and and all of these work. We have a 2:54:29.440 --> 2:54:38.280 large swath of different avenues of engagement that the movement 2:54:38.400 --> 2:54:41.000 is has developed, and each of them has their place, 2:54:41.080 --> 2:54:43.520 and if they're used in the proper place, they're used 2:54:43.520 --> 2:54:46.640 to great effect. I think one kind of change that 2:54:46.800 --> 2:54:50.080 has happened we've seen we've seen a bit of a 2:54:50.280 --> 2:54:54.960 decrease in the types of like nighttime sabotage, like the 2:54:55.959 --> 2:54:59.040 sort of like attack and disappear tactics that was was 2:54:59.120 --> 2:55:01.879 really popular in the the early days of the occupation 2:55:02.760 --> 2:55:05.600 of like of of like the force occupation of people 2:55:05.640 --> 2:55:09.640 living and living and camping out in the woods. Um. 2:55:10.200 --> 2:55:12.880 And you know the because like the last two much 2:55:12.959 --> 2:55:15.880 more like militant actions were done during the daytime, during 2:55:15.959 --> 2:55:18.480 like large rallies. There was there was the protest on 2:55:18.560 --> 2:55:22.040 Saturday after Tortuguita was killed where a cop car was torched. 2:55:22.400 --> 2:55:24.800 Then there was this, then there was this protest on 2:55:25.200 --> 2:55:29.800 on Sunday night UM that people that people marched, people 2:55:29.840 --> 2:55:32.320 marched to the to the power line cut and then 2:55:32.360 --> 2:55:36.280 the police started doing repression at the music festival. UM. 2:55:36.840 --> 2:55:41.040 But like those things were happening like during like before 2:55:41.120 --> 2:55:43.560 the sun was setting. UM. So I think that that 2:55:43.800 --> 2:55:46.160 that's one interesting change. I feel like some people are 2:55:46.200 --> 2:55:49.720 definitely thinking about this, especially because there's been twenty three 2:55:49.760 --> 2:55:52.800 people arrested during this week of action and they're being 2:55:53.000 --> 2:55:55.440 held in jail uh and we have no idea when 2:55:55.440 --> 2:55:57.680 they're going, when they're going to be able to have 2:55:57.800 --> 2:56:00.160 the option of getting out. So I think this is 2:56:00.200 --> 2:56:02.080 something this is something that people are thinking about in 2:56:02.240 --> 2:56:05.440 terms of how they are how they are doing direct action, 2:56:05.600 --> 2:56:10.880 and how how their involvement in direct action will affect 2:56:11.000 --> 2:56:13.760 people who did not participate, like with people at the 2:56:14.160 --> 2:56:16.840 people at the music festival, who who were not who 2:56:16.879 --> 2:56:20.920 were not present at the power line cut direct action, 2:56:21.320 --> 2:56:25.440 and how some of those people are undoubtedly now facing 2:56:26.200 --> 2:56:29.640 like punishment from from the state. UM. So I feel 2:56:29.640 --> 2:56:32.960 like that there is definitely going to be some discussion 2:56:33.000 --> 2:56:35.960 about that. I've i've i've i've seen discussion about this 2:56:36.080 --> 2:56:39.879 sort in the city. Um. But I mean the Week 2:56:39.920 --> 2:56:41.920 of Action is still is still ongoing. It is it 2:56:42.080 --> 2:56:45.080 is only Wednesday. It feels like it's been a month, um, 2:56:45.480 --> 2:56:48.640 but it's only been like three or four days. Uh. 2:56:49.520 --> 2:56:52.280 But I mean it's people. People are in this for 2:56:52.440 --> 2:56:54.760 the long haul. Um. We're we're starting to see more 2:56:54.879 --> 2:56:58.840 solidarity from from groups that are less militant, like with 2:56:58.920 --> 2:57:02.720 the interfaith relition right, like you're not. I don't think 2:57:02.760 --> 2:57:05.240 any of like the priests, the priests or the clergy 2:57:05.560 --> 2:57:09.560 were there throwing molotov cocktails um at the at the 2:57:09.640 --> 2:57:12.560 surveillance tower. Yet the very next day they're standing out 2:57:12.600 --> 2:57:15.880 outside of city Hall and demanding the same things that 2:57:15.959 --> 2:57:19.480 the people throwing maltovs are are demanding. It should be 2:57:19.600 --> 2:57:23.320 noted that they didn't denounce no that is it is 2:57:23.400 --> 2:57:28.160 solidarity across the movement. Absolutely. They talked about how them 2:57:28.200 --> 2:57:32.520 as clergy you know, and uh, the in the history 2:57:32.600 --> 2:57:37.280 of Abrahamic religions, how many how many people associated and 2:57:37.400 --> 2:57:40.080 are the figureheads of such religions have been killed by 2:57:40.120 --> 2:57:43.160 the state, and how often often these religions have been 2:57:43.400 --> 2:57:47.560 in opposition to the state during during their formative years. Um, 2:57:48.240 --> 2:57:50.080 and they don't know. I just I just can't think 2:57:50.120 --> 2:57:54.280 of any prominent uh Christian figures or Jewish figures who 2:57:54.320 --> 2:57:56.080 were who were murdered by the state. That's just not 2:57:56.400 --> 2:57:59.760 nothing's coming up, right none. Yeah, no, I grew up 2:58:00.280 --> 2:58:05.920 and I can't really remember anyone. So um, yeah, that 2:58:06.120 --> 2:58:08.360 is that is. That is the week of action so far. 2:58:10.200 --> 2:58:12.959 There will there will certainly be be be a more 2:58:13.760 --> 2:58:16.720 a more detailed deep dive with like analysis and like, 2:58:16.879 --> 2:58:19.720 you know, a narrative through line in the coming weeks 2:58:19.800 --> 2:58:21.800 as we're actually able to like look back on what 2:58:22.000 --> 2:58:25.440 has happened. Um interviews with more people who are who 2:58:25.520 --> 2:58:30.640 are like actually involved, interviews with like organizers, protesters, force defenders, um, 2:58:32.040 --> 2:58:35.640 but people. Despite the ignassive amount of repression that we've 2:58:35.720 --> 2:58:40.000 seen on Sunday, the increasingly like heavy handed response. Police 2:58:40.040 --> 2:58:43.680 have had to both direct action that includes property destruction 2:58:43.760 --> 2:58:47.440 and non violent direct action. Uh. Despite all that, people 2:58:47.480 --> 2:58:49.400 are still continuing to be in the woods. They are 2:58:49.480 --> 2:58:52.400 not letting it scare them away. The woods are still 2:58:52.440 --> 2:58:57.440 a place that the people are able to like exist in. Uh, 2:58:57.760 --> 2:59:01.320 They're still able to live, live together in the woods, 2:59:01.480 --> 2:59:04.880 stay in the woods. The cops don't like being in 2:59:04.959 --> 2:59:08.680 the woods. No, there's a real fear that's you're trying 2:59:08.720 --> 2:59:12.199 to tear them down. Yes, the cops are. The cops 2:59:12.240 --> 2:59:14.440 are still very much scared of the woods. Um. And 2:59:14.760 --> 2:59:17.840 and uh people have have have not have not let 2:59:18.120 --> 2:59:21.760 the violence shown by police scare them away from from 2:59:21.879 --> 2:59:24.600 wanting to stay in the forest. So that is that 2:59:24.680 --> 2:59:27.920 is something that continued every day. There's been like guided 2:59:28.040 --> 2:59:31.879 tours throughout the forest showing off the different different types 2:59:31.920 --> 2:59:34.720 of plants, the different sections of the woods, different different 2:59:34.720 --> 2:59:40.200 old campsites that people have slept at. Um. Yeah, it's uh, 2:59:40.800 --> 2:59:42.680 it's been. It's been pretty nice to see with the 2:59:42.840 --> 2:59:49.320 with just the incredible level of resilience. Well I know 2:59:49.480 --> 2:59:52.640 that that I am, and I'm sure many people are 2:59:52.720 --> 2:59:58.440 kind of watching this from a distance, and uh, very 2:59:59.320 --> 3:00:02.160 very happy to see that folks are continuing to adapt 3:00:02.879 --> 3:00:06.680 and endure UH and and take punches. It's unfortunate that 3:00:06.720 --> 3:00:09.920 the punches keep coming, but the ability of the community 3:00:10.000 --> 3:00:14.120 to take those hits and continue iterating and adapting UM, 3:00:14.560 --> 3:00:18.959 remains tremendously impressive. UM. I think kind of the note 3:00:19.400 --> 3:00:21.400 that makes most sense to end on as to say 3:00:21.480 --> 3:00:26.960 that this is still a winnable fight. Absolutely, And that 3:00:27.160 --> 3:00:30.160 is a sentiment that literally everyone on the ground shares. 3:00:30.320 --> 3:00:34.320 Like we are at a point where like people keep 3:00:34.400 --> 3:00:37.640 saying like at this point they have to win, like 3:00:37.800 --> 3:00:41.280 like there there is no other option than winning, UM, 3:00:41.600 --> 3:00:44.240 And people have the ability to win this. This is 3:00:44.320 --> 3:00:47.520 a winnable fight, UM. And that is that is something 3:00:47.600 --> 3:00:50.240 that people continue continue to talk about, and that that 3:00:50.440 --> 3:00:52.280 is why people are fighting so hard. That's why people 3:00:52.320 --> 3:00:56.600 are are risking getting these ridiculous charges because they know 3:00:56.760 --> 3:00:58.320 that this fight is both worth it and they know 3:00:58.440 --> 3:01:02.000 this fight is winnable. Like these are these the actions 3:01:02.040 --> 3:01:04.560 and the risks that people are The actions and the 3:01:04.720 --> 3:01:06.800 risks that people are taking are not for nothing, Like 3:01:06.920 --> 3:01:10.440 they know that it is impactful and there is a 3:01:10.600 --> 3:01:14.480 very good chance that this this will lead to victory 3:01:14.640 --> 3:01:17.840 and will lead to the forest being preserved, to being 3:01:17.920 --> 3:01:21.800 protected and being able to continue continue to grow. It 3:01:21.959 --> 3:01:26.080 does have a feeling of inevitability that they will win, 3:01:26.280 --> 3:01:30.280 that we're we will win. I don't know which appropriate 3:01:31.080 --> 3:01:33.400 way to say that is as a journalist, but the 3:01:33.720 --> 3:01:36.280 feeling is that that Cops City will not be built 3:01:36.720 --> 3:01:39.080 and that is something that shared, I think by all 3:01:39.160 --> 3:01:43.400 of the activists in this city. And I guess the 3:01:43.879 --> 3:01:47.280 last thing I'll say is, uh, Atlanta Solidarity Fund. You 3:01:47.840 --> 3:01:50.240 if you if you've been listening to any of our coverage, 3:01:50.280 --> 3:01:53.160 you should already know what it is. You can find 3:01:53.320 --> 3:01:57.480 the Solidarity Fund at atl solidarity dot org. You can 3:01:57.520 --> 3:02:00.600 donate there to help the forest defenders and you know, 3:02:01.000 --> 3:02:04.240 anyone who who was arrested in relation to this with 3:02:04.959 --> 3:02:12.000 legal expenses, lawyers, that sort of thing. Um yeah, well, um, 3:02:12.240 --> 3:02:15.440 that's gonna do it for this episode. Uh. And we'll 3:02:15.520 --> 3:02:18.879 have more from you, Garrison, and more from Atlanta soon 3:02:19.760 --> 3:02:27.640 until next time, everybody, Uh, keep an eye on shit. Hey, 3:02:27.760 --> 3:02:30.880 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:02:30.920 --> 3:02:33.480 now until the heat Death of the Universe. It could 3:02:33.520 --> 3:02:35.840 happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:02:36.000 --> 3:02:38.680 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3:02:38.760 --> 3:02:41.600 zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:02:41.640 --> 3:02:44.800 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 3:02:44.840 --> 3:02:47.520 find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 3:02:47.560 --> 3:02:50.760 cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.