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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you. But you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Garrison started talking about crimes,

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Speaker 1: and so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: hold off on president crime at all. That's true. That's true.

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Speaker 1: James said the word crimes, and James is the one

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Speaker 1: that brought up doing crimes. I would never talk about

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Speaker 1: doing crimes. Oh, welcome to don't it happened here? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if we never talk about anything illegal. Um with us

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Speaker 1: today is myself, Garrison, James Stout, and Mia Wong. It's right,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about crimes today. Actually, but we're not

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Speaker 1: doing any crimes, Crisley, because we never would. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: for for for example, well, actually I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's technically illegal to to talk about jury

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Speaker 1: nullification on air. I don't I know. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they can stop you from saying the words. I think

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Speaker 1: they can. I think I think you You don't have

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Speaker 1: the rights to do it, but you have the ability.

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Speaker 1: I think is a way a lawyer explained it to me.

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Speaker 1: But they also said I'm not your lawyer before that.

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Speaker 1: So take that with a great assault. Yeah. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: probably say you shouldn't be describing how to do jury

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Speaker 1: notification or googling it. If that's in your future, stay

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Speaker 1: tuned for our upcoming episode, how to yeah your Jury. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how to Nullify your jury. That will be our final episode. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so now we're not talking about jury today. We are

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Speaker 1: talking about crime. The people doing the crime in this episode,

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Speaker 1: shockingly are the cops. So I want to start on

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Speaker 1: October twenty eight, twenty sixteen. Some of you can probably

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Speaker 1: cast your mind back then, the last week of the

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Speaker 1: pre Trump era. Yeah yeah, So inside the Captain's office

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Speaker 1: at the sheriff station of Rancho, San Diego, one of

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Speaker 1: the most expensive ZIP codes in the country, Captain Marco

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Speaker 1: Garmo was making a deal. Garmo, along with Giovanni Tilotta,

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Speaker 1: who's a licensed San Diego gun dealer, sold a glockhandgun

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Speaker 1: an a R fifteen Star rifle and a Smith and

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Speaker 1: Western handgun to local defense attorney. Because Baje inside Garmo's office,

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Speaker 1: Garmo coordinated backdated paperwork to avoid the ten day waiting

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Speaker 1: period required by California law for handgun purchases and supplied

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Speaker 1: Bajaj with misappropriated San Diego Sheriff's Department issued ammunition. Oh fun, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so's he's really thriving in his side hustle here, Marco Garmo.

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Speaker 1: I've used the word misappropriated because that's what the DOJ used.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing the more vernacular term would be stolen. Here.

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Speaker 1: I think I think he's so what do you say issued?

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Speaker 1: Is this MO that like like was supposed to be

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Speaker 1: given to a coup or is the stuff they had

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Speaker 1: an impound? Uh No, I think it's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: given to a cop. I think hell yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: he's good. I think he's gone into the armory and

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Speaker 1: just grabbed a few box set of AMMO and stole them.

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Speaker 1: Cops have just turned into the Afghan Army. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, the Ana they've got the what's that

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Speaker 1: guy who had the like help? He had their like

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Speaker 1: night vision on backwards or something that was that was

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Speaker 1: a Taliban guy. Yeah, interestingly, what they have in the

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Speaker 1: compound me, it's another story that maybe we should do

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Speaker 1: another day. I also prate that, like the weapons that

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Speaker 1: are impounded, Jesus Christ, they have some shit like they

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Speaker 1: have like a full auto shotgun, like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: NFA items and they keep them all for like lab

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Speaker 1: testing in theory, like so they can so they can

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, this person was shot, what does that

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Speaker 1: wound look like? Well, let's get our armory out from

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Speaker 1: the fucking end shoots and ballistics gel and see if

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Speaker 1: that helps us. And it's like that scene from two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight The Dark Night where Christian Bale is

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Speaker 1: Batman fires a ridiculously loud gun in a sealed bugger,

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Speaker 1: absolutely destroying both his and Alfred's hearing for the entire

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Speaker 1: rest of the movie. That's why they make so many

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Speaker 1: bad choices. Fascinating. Yeah, I didn't know that was a

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Speaker 1: character called Alfred and Batman. Yeah, they really welshed him

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Speaker 1: on the names, because like, Batman is a cool name,

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Speaker 1: the joker cool name. Do you don't know who Alfred? No,

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Speaker 1: the one British character in Badman. He is your culture.

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Speaker 1: When people think of British people, they think of Alfred J. Pennyworths,

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Speaker 1: not a costume Garrison. Well, so I have a bad

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Speaker 1: bad news yea. They disgusted that this is the point

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Speaker 1: of reference, not one of our many wonderful modern British

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Speaker 1: role models. Alfred's great. I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, yeah, no, okay.

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Speaker 1: He is a working class zero, he was a he

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Speaker 1: was a wait our butlers are working class right, oh god,

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Speaker 1: discourse off very quickly. I would say petty bourgeoi. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of complicated because you're like working directly for

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Speaker 1: a billionaire and you're living in the billionaire's house and

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Speaker 1: you're living a very upper class life, but you still

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Speaker 1: are working. It's kind of what is your relationship to

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Speaker 1: the meta production? Though? Oh that this? Wow? Well, but

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Speaker 1: it's all service, Like I don't know. I feel like

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Speaker 1: we have to do a divide here between because I

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Speaker 1: think I think the gender division of labor between made

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Speaker 1: and butler is very important. I love Howard debating how

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Speaker 1: if Alfred is based. Yeah, yeah, so you can find

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Speaker 1: Garrison on Twitter. I right, Okay, so we made to

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Speaker 1: paragraph too everywhere. In February twenty nineteen, federal agents executed

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Speaker 1: a search horrn at the Rancho San Diego chaff station.

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Speaker 1: Later that year, they arrested Captain Marco Garmo. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, Garmo pleaded guilty to trafficking over one hundred

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Speaker 1: guns which were deemed unsafe for civilians. His sentence, I

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Speaker 1: shouldn't say civilians because cops are also civilians, right, but

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Speaker 1: non cops. His sentencing, the judge said Garmo was almost

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Speaker 1: becoming a mob boss of sorts. What you want to

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Speaker 1: strive for as a cherish captain. Garmo admitted to engaging

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Speaker 1: in straw purchases, which is buying guns with the intent

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Speaker 1: of transferring them to someone else. He also acknowledged tipping

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Speaker 1: off an illegal marijuana dispensary that was about to be

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Speaker 1: searched in order based Nothing this guy did is inherently wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's the fact that he only did it to certain people,

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Speaker 1: and so that was his cousin who earned a marijuana's fensury.

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Speaker 1: He was also engaged in illegal consulting with other dispensaries,

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Speaker 1: which I don't bulliant. Yeah, I'm getting his consulting emerged

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Speaker 1: to being like, Hey, the cops are on their way tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: maybe stop being a dispensary by the time they arrive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that seems like a that that that that that that

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Speaker 1: that seems like a very classic the cop to take

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Speaker 1: a cut kind of Yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the things in this DJ thing are like,

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Speaker 1: really fantastically phrased. So Garmo and his Code A friend

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Speaker 1: and wail Will Anton also helped paying clients skip the

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Speaker 1: waiting list for a difficult to tain concealed carry permit.

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Speaker 1: As part of this scheme, Anton took a legal cash

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Speaker 1: payment to accounty clerk who ensured favorable treatment for his clients.

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Speaker 1: Garmo might have flown a little too close to the

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Speaker 1: sun with this one, but it's not actually that unusual

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Speaker 1: for gun laws to have carve outs for rich people,

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Speaker 1: and often those carve outs don't involve cops stealing AMMO.

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Speaker 1: But it's pretty easy if you're wealthy enough to work

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Speaker 1: your way around firearms legislation, which is kind of what

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Speaker 1: I want to get into today. So while Garmo did

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Speaker 1: go to jail for gun trafficking and multiple other crime,

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Speaker 1: he was doing the sale of so called off rous

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Speaker 1: to firearms by law infolvement officers. In California, it's relatively

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Speaker 1: common and there's not much that's been done to prevent

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Speaker 1: it since Gamo was arrested. So to understand this, I

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Speaker 1: think you have to understand California is incredibly complicated firearms laws,

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Speaker 1: which probably requires like an undergraduate degree. But to give

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Speaker 1: a brief summary, California introduced its gun roster in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one, and like many of our laws, it

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Speaker 1: has its roots in entrenching systemic inequalities. In this case,

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Speaker 1: legislators were trying to ban something called a Saturday Night

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Speaker 1: Special and people know what people know what that is. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a small, concealable, affordable hanggun. It's like there

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Speaker 1: were there were this, there was this, these guns that

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Speaker 1: came out in like the eighties and nineties that were

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Speaker 1: like super small, very cheap, very simple, very concealable and ship.

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Speaker 1: Well that's the thing, right, So this is really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: So in practice, right, these were at least culturally associated

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Speaker 1: with like black communities, right that that's you see them

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Speaker 1: in sometimes like certainly like there was a stigmatic reference

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Speaker 1: to like a disease guns that is causing violence, and

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Speaker 1: we're not going to fucking look at inequality at all, right,

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Speaker 1: We're just going to ban the guns. Are they shit?

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Speaker 1: As an interesting question, because California introduces legislation which said

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Speaker 1: that handguns had to be dropped safe, so that means

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Speaker 1: you can drop them and they can't go off. That

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Speaker 1: is generally a desirable feature. And a handgun able to

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Speaker 1: fire six hundred rounds without more than six malfunctions and

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Speaker 1: have a manual safety device. And later on they added

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Speaker 1: another thing that would make the gun only fire when

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Speaker 1: it had a magazine inserted. And they put all these

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Speaker 1: rules in place, and has said manufacturers had to submit

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Speaker 1: guns for testing. All the guns they were going after

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Speaker 1: pass the testing, So I guess they're not as shit

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Speaker 1: as one the one had suspected, which is kind of

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Speaker 1: like that that is the intent and they are laboring

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Speaker 1: under that misapprehension. But it seems like these guns, which

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Speaker 1: are very cheap, actually pass a testing just fine. So

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Speaker 1: if you look at the California roster, so once those

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Speaker 1: guns have passed that testing, right, they go on a roster,

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Speaker 1: and that roster like it's done by skew so like

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Speaker 1: by the individual code that's given to the gun, and

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Speaker 1: you could look up the California roster. It it's online

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Speaker 1: still and like there are hundreds of cheap small hand

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Speaker 1: guns that are on it. So they've failed in that regard.

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Speaker 1: But they created this kind of bizarre system where most

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Speaker 1: manufacturers had to make a California compliant model if they

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Speaker 1: wanted to sell in California, right, because it had to

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Speaker 1: have a magazine disconnect, which means that the gun won't

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Speaker 1: fire without the magazine in, which is not a usual

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Speaker 1: thing for semi automatic handguns to have. Like if you

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Speaker 1: are outside of California and you have like a normal

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Speaker 1: like a glock for instance, it doesn't have that, but

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Speaker 1: you would need one that did in California. So that

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Speaker 1: means that these guns are going to have a much

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Speaker 1: much smaller economy of scale, right, They're going to be

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Speaker 1: more expensive. Manufacturers also have to pay for the testing

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Speaker 1: and submit three models, So what de facto means is

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Speaker 1: that fewer guns are available in California. It doesn't really

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Speaker 1: become a big issue until twenty thirteen when the DOJ

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Speaker 1: in California add a micro stamping requirement. But they added

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Speaker 1: it earlier actually, but in twenty thirteen they certified it

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Speaker 1: was possible for missing. But so is the roster the

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Speaker 1: list of guns are allowed to buy, yes, okay, And

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Speaker 1: if it doesn't appear on the roster, we're going to

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Speaker 1: get into that. You can actually buy it, but you

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Speaker 1: can't buy it new from a store, so you can

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Speaker 1: buy it used. And there are two ways that these

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Speaker 1: used handguns can enter the state, right. One of them

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Speaker 1: is if you move to the state. So let's say

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Speaker 1: Garrison moves to LA right, and they bring with horrifying yeah,

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Speaker 1: just enjoy just just like a Vulcan mini gun. Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: They bring with them an M one Abrams tank. It's

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Speaker 1: a balloon shooting gun. Yeah. Every one of the West

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Speaker 1: Coast has to have one now, and so it's actually

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Speaker 1: different from rifles, SEDDI. But they bring with them pistols,

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Speaker 1: and those pistols are not on the California roster. They

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Speaker 1: can keep them and they can sell them right to

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Speaker 1: a California resident. The other way that these guns can

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Speaker 1: enter and be sold is cops are exempt from the roster, right,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And when I say cops,

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Speaker 1: I am speaking in the broadest possible terms because a

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Speaker 1: variety of peace officers are exempt, to include employees of

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Speaker 1: the California State Horse Racing Board. Sometimes park rangers can

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Speaker 1: do this, right. I think it depends what you are

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Speaker 1: within the park ranger, within the park, and it seems

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Speaker 1: to be there is actually a list, right that's in

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Speaker 1: the legislation, but it seems to be largely like at

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Speaker 1: the discretion of the gun shop. Like in practice they

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Speaker 1: could get in trouble. But like I've heard of like

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Speaker 1: firefighters and EMTs being able to purchase off roster guns,

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Speaker 1: which is fucking not in the legislation, Like it is

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Speaker 1: also kind of funny, but like U, in theory, it

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Speaker 1: would depend on what unit you're in, or they could

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Speaker 1: contact your like park ranger office and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this this girl is trying to buy a gun, like

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Speaker 1: she used us at work, because the idea is that

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Speaker 1: they would they would have the most up to date

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Speaker 1: weapons to carry at work, right, or that they could

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Speaker 1: buy themselves even though they get issued guns. So like

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Speaker 1: if you need a gun as a cop, you get

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Speaker 1: issued a gun, right. So what it means in practice

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Speaker 1: is that there's a thriving market and offer us to

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Speaker 1: firearms but there's also massive price premium. Right, they often

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Speaker 1: sell off for two or three times there MSRP, even

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Speaker 1: though they're used. And I did a little digging into this,

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Speaker 1: and I looked at one particular item, which was a

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Speaker 1: P three sixty five, a sig P three sixty five,

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Speaker 1: which is a fairly like a popular pistol. Right. But

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Speaker 1: after twenty thirteen, California doesn't didn't allow any new guns

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Speaker 1: to be added to the roster unless they micro stamp

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Speaker 1: their bullets. Micro Stamping is a little feature where the

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Speaker 1: firing pin of the gun stamps the casing, not the bullet,

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Speaker 1: with a little, kind little tiny stamp which is unique

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Speaker 1: to the gun, right, or it stamps it with the

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Speaker 1: serial number of the gun. So in theory, this would

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Speaker 1: allow you to pick up the casings at a murder

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Speaker 1: scene and be like, huh, well they were fired from

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Speaker 1: this gun and this gun is read to this person.

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Speaker 1: Therefore we got someone to talk to you, right, pick

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Speaker 1: up the casings. Yeah right, yeah, absolutely, no ways around this. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean emmittively immediately that the one thing I've learned

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Speaker 1: over the years is that people are really lazy when

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Speaker 1: they're doing crimes, and so true, So true to be

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Speaker 1: slightly less lazy and get caughts and you're really that

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Speaker 1: is that is Yeah, that is my biggest my biggest

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Speaker 1: advice to the illegalists literally think five minutes before ye

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. Also, don't tweet your crimes. Yeah, every

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Speaker 1: green statements. Yeah yeah, it's one of our mottoes here.

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Speaker 1: You could also just use a revolver, I guess and

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Speaker 1: it would inject the casings. But um, the because there

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Speaker 1: are no guns in twenty thirteen, right, the DOJ says

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Speaker 1: you are not allowed to add a gun to the

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Speaker 1: roster unless it micro stamps, and we we've de signed

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Speaker 1: that micro stamping as possible. No firearms manufacturer will make

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Speaker 1: a gun that micro stamps because other states will require

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Speaker 1: all guns to micro stamp once set technology is available.

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Speaker 1: So they just don't built it, so they just don't

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Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, it is, And it's very funny. It's

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Speaker 1: like the car companies just being like, fucking, you know

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Speaker 1: what if we put airbags in that bad boy, They're

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Speaker 1: going to make us put airbags in all the cars.

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Speaker 1: You know. This is the thing that I've run into

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Speaker 1: a lot. I think it's really interesting, which is like, okay,

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Speaker 1: the specific combination of regulatory state and corporations being required

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Speaker 1: to do a thing gives you a bunch of really

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Speaker 1: really weird like outcomes that are like not what you

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Speaker 1: would expect when you're writing the legislation, which makes them ineffective,

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Speaker 1: Like I mean, I like the most famous one is

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Speaker 1: like the Clean Air Act actually worse into air quality

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Speaker 1: for a huge amount of time because they put in

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Speaker 1: this exception for like existing coal facilities under the assumption

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Speaker 1: that people would just like you know, build new coal

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Speaker 1: facilities and thus be like and thus like have better

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Speaker 1: to like create that cleaner technology, and no one, no

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Speaker 1: one ever did. They just left these old coal facilities

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Speaker 1: running or the other one, Like everyone always talks about

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Speaker 1: those like those fucking like why why the giant SUVs

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Speaker 1: keep getting bigger? And the reason for that is actually,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of is sort of fascist psychosis,

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Speaker 1: but like the actual reason for that is Obama era

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Speaker 1: pollution controls on cars, right, had to have these fuel

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Speaker 1: emission standards. But the larger your car is, like the

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Speaker 1: worst fuel emission standards are, so they keep so okay

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Speaker 1: in order to get around the fuel emission things, they

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Speaker 1: keep making cars make it bigger amazing. Yeah, and this

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Speaker 1: ship just like I don't know this is this is

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Speaker 1: I think a pretty good argument against like against a

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Speaker 1: sort of regulatory state being able to contain like capitalism

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Speaker 1: doing horriborifying shit. Is like every single time someone tries

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Speaker 1: to make it air pollution thing, it just makes it worse. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they just create perverse incentives to do something which is

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Speaker 1: like just stupid and polluting as opposed to Yeah, or

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Speaker 1: they just don't comply. It was with the microsynything. You're

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Speaker 1: just like no, like, yeah, simply romote. The specific interaction

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Speaker 1: of like people who elevate themselves who make it to

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Speaker 1: the California legislature on one hand, and gun companies on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, just leads to this complete intransigence where

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Speaker 1: like anytime a Laura is written, it is like someone

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Speaker 1: has found an end run or a loophole before it

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Speaker 1: comes into practice. Do you know what won't illegally smuggle

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Speaker 1: illegally smuggle guns into California install them for two to

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Speaker 1: three times a retail price? Mare? Is it? All the

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Speaker 1: firms that are doing child trafficking? And that's right, the

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Speaker 1: Washington State Highway Patrol we're back and we're talking about

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Speaker 1: cops selling guns for a lot of money in southern California.

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Speaker 1: So big Marco Garma wasn't the only cop who shares

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Speaker 1: a life of crime. As it turns out, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: shockingly enough, this practice is pretty common. So a Guardina

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Speaker 1: police officer in twenty twenty one was also convicted of

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Speaker 1: making forty one illegal offer us to sales in a year,

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Speaker 1: and at least six LA officers have been found to

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Speaker 1: be engaged in legal firearms transfers, according to twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: one LA Times investigation, So that that's eight in a

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Speaker 1: single year if you're keeping track. And it's pretty common

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Speaker 1: to see people like posting about this, like like if

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Speaker 1: you go on to like the California Guns forum, where

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Speaker 1: people will be like where they sell guns right where

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Speaker 1: they don't. You don't actually sell the guns on the internet,

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Speaker 1: so that's illegal. But people will post it and then

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Speaker 1: say meet me at this gun dealer and we'll do

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Speaker 1: the background check. And you'll see people being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like m l O, I have a friend to LEO

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Speaker 1: and like happen to be selling this gun new in package.

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Speaker 1: I bought it to carry it on patrol, but I

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Speaker 1: decided I didn't like it, you know, like that's the

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Speaker 1: theoretical connad here, right, Oh god, Okay. The thing this

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Speaker 1: reminds me of specifically is a very very weird use

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Speaker 1: case of like people will magice the gathering tournaments where

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Speaker 1: you're not legally allowed to both draw and split the

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Speaker 1: prize money. So you have to say this incredibly complicated

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Speaker 1: series of sentences where you're like, I want to draw,

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Speaker 1: and then new conversation, can we split the prize money?

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Speaker 1: It's like I have to I have to like say

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Speaker 1: this exact series of words in order to make it's

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Speaker 1: clear that I'm not doing exactly what I'm doing and

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Speaker 1: breaking the law. Yeah, this is how the law works, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it always ends up being some kind of like

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Speaker 1: totalistic magic incantation that you can say, and then the

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Speaker 1: thing that they trying to fucking stop obviously no longer

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Speaker 1: applies to union can do what you want. Like it's

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Speaker 1: incredibly assinine. So in mid twenty twenty one, I tried

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Speaker 1: to I wanted to get a sense, right and when

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Speaker 1: I was doing this of how many of these offer

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Speaker 1: uster guns there are in California, to get a sense

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Speaker 1: of like exactly how much of a fass. The attempt

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Speaker 1: to create this roster has been so I've been going

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Speaker 1: after this for a while. But in the middle of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, there was an Assembly bill pass called

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Speaker 1: Assembly Bill two six nine nine, if you're interested, and

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Speaker 1: the bill required the Department of Justice to send a

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Speaker 1: letter to owners off off roster weapons, which California officially

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Speaker 1: calls unsafe handguns, to remind the people who own the

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Speaker 1: mother laws surrounding them and to whom they could transfer them. Right.

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Speaker 1: I first became aware of this letter because someone dectarted

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Speaker 1: to post it online and that kind of gave me

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Speaker 1: an opening where because I can't pira the names of

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Speaker 1: the people who owned the guns right or even where

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Speaker 1: they live, because obviously protect information and it probably should

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Speaker 1: be and I don't think that inforation is even actually

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Speaker 1: stored by the state. But I can pira the letters

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Speaker 1: say sent out. So pira is a public records at request, right,

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Speaker 1: it's what people might know as of foyer. And so

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Speaker 1: I did that, and it took me more than a

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Speaker 1: year and it cost me more than a hundred bucks,

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Speaker 1: But eventually I managed to get the DOJ to to

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Speaker 1: send me the information which showed that at least at

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Speaker 1: the time I got it, which is the middle of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, four thousand and five hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: firearms have been obtained by the subsection of the law

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Speaker 1: that allows exemptions for police officers. There are some other

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Speaker 1: exemptions for like antique collectible firearms as well, so it's

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Speaker 1: not clear that all of those were cops. They also

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Speaker 1: noted that it had sent two hundred and thirteen thousand,

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Speaker 1: eight hundred and four notices to the owners of off

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Speaker 1: roster weapons, which, yeah, it suggests that if we think

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Speaker 1: of that, the roster became a serious issue in twenty thirteen, right,

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Speaker 1: so that suggested about ten thousand, ten thousand weapons a

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Speaker 1: year since the roster began in two thousand and one

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Speaker 1: have entered the state that are off ruster, which kind

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Speaker 1: of kind of makes the point that it's it's a

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Speaker 1: rather fasticle attempt at gun control, right, But it still

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Speaker 1: is that the roster, which I don't think like, you're fine, right,

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Speaker 1: you can you can buy a very effective gun in California,

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Speaker 1: as we have seen, they're very effective of killing people.

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Speaker 1: But it does kind of make it a joke that

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Speaker 1: if you have enough money or a friend who's a cop,

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Speaker 1: then this doesn't apply to you. Right, then you're over

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Speaker 1: two hundred thousand of these guns which are supposed to

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Speaker 1: be like banned in circulation, as long as you're wealthy

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Speaker 1: enough to buy them. I tried also to pra a

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Speaker 1: if any of these guns have been involved in crime

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Speaker 1: or murder, and they would tell me that. And what

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Speaker 1: it's always worth pointing out that like the cops themselves

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Speaker 1: are issued guns which are illegal for civilians to purchase,

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Speaker 1: right or it's not possible for them to purchase them.

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Speaker 1: New I should say that offer us to guns are

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Speaker 1: issued to the cops, right, So, by definition, some of

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Speaker 1: these guns have been used in the accidental shooting of bystanders,

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Speaker 1: shooting of officers by themselves, and shooting of officers by

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Speaker 1: other officers that have occurred in California since the Rousta began.

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Speaker 1: So the sort of by definition of us to guns

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Speaker 1: to kill some people. So this isn't actually the only

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Speaker 1: way that being wealthy can get you around gun laws.

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Speaker 1: And I want to go a little further east for

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Speaker 1: my next example. Then I want to go, in fact

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Speaker 1: to a little town called Lake Arthur in New Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Then if you are you guys familiar with this part

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Speaker 1: of the world. Not well, not that I lived in

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Speaker 1: New Mexico very very briefly when I was a small child,

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Speaker 1: but not there. So so I've been using Google street View.

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Speaker 1: That's my my dive. It appears to be the back

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Speaker 1: arshile of nowhere, and in let Garthur, they have one

427
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: cop who it turns out was a volunteer and was

428
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: being paid a dollar a year. Aha. Yeah, so this

429
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: is this is where the problem starts. This guy is

430
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 1: called William Norwood. And I'll issue a spoiler here that

431
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: William Norwood is no longer a cop in orders the

432
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: department exist. And that's because Norwood was running a scam

433
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: that took advantage of something called LIOSA. LIOSA is a

434
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act and what the Law Enforcement

435
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: Officers Safety Act does is allow cops from any state

436
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: in the Union to conceal carry a gun in every

437
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: state in the Union. So this was a big deal. Yeah,

438
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: I think you might be abotuely what this is going.

439
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: This was a big deal before the Supreme Court Brewined decision. Right.

440
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: The Brewer decision was the one that significantly reduced the

441
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: impediments in between you and getting a concealed carry weapons permit.

442
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: I didn't totally remove them, and it did make it

443
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: any less expensive, and California needs to be going about

444
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: trying to make it even more expensive, which is bullshit,

445
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: Like everyone should have the same right, regardless of how

446
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: wealthy they are. But if you were covered by LEOSA, right,

447
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: if you're a law enforcement officer, you could conceal Carrie anywhere.

448
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: So this is very desirable for certain people. One of

449
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: those people is Robert Mercer. Do you guys remember Robert Mercer? No?

450
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: I do not, Okay, So Murcer is a big time

451
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: Donald Trump appreciated. Oh yeah, he's that like super rich guy. Yeah,

452
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: the bright Bart guy, the Cambridge Analytica guy. Yeah. Okay, yeah.

453
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: So this guy is rolling in it, and he he was.

454
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: He actually hosted like a a like success party soon

455
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: after twenty sixteen election. This this guy is definitely pivotal

456
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: to the whole Trump scene, right, like like his bank

457
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: rolling a bright Bart, Cambrinallytica. He As it turns out,

458
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: it's also a cop in this little New Mexico town,

459
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: which is kind of weird, right, especially when you consider

460
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: that one hundred and fifty other people are also cops

461
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: in this me. Yeah, that's that's one cop for every

462
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: two point nine residents. Jesus. Yeah. And turns out they're

463
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: probably not doing much copying, but they are doing at

464
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: least a certain amount of volunteering. It's actually unclear how much.

465
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: So the Lake Arthur Treasurer with Bloomberg did some prays

466
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: around this, and it turns out that Mercer was what's

467
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: called an honorary member of the police department, but there

468
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: are no records to indicate they actually did any policing.

469
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: But nonetheless he took advantage of LEOSA, right, and that's

470
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: carried in all fifty states, so these jurisdictions, there are

471
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: several of them. Another famous and who's taken advantage of

472
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: this is a friend of the podcast, Stephen Seagal. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

473
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: Stephen Seagar, who apparently has been a volunteer cop for

474
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: a very long time and like actually was doing some

475
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: copping according to a reality TV show he made called

476
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: Steven Seagal Lawman. You know the thing about that show,

477
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: right is it's like, are you gonna come out and

478
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: defend the show? Are you pro the show? Really? Here,

479
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: here's why they on this show, right, Like, obviously Seagal's

480
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: doing stuff that's really messed up, but it's also unclear

481
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: how much ye what he was doing is than the

482
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: average cop. Liket Like, probably what he's doing is worst

483
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: than the average cop, But I don't think it's like

484
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: like I don't I don't think it's as bad as

485
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: like like a Chicago Special Operations unit. It's like, I

486
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: can't believe this came out in defense of Steven Seagal. Specifically,

487
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: he has work to do to reach like the true

488
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: upper echelon of like I don't know, shitty cops, Like

489
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: this is a man who gave his time freely to

490
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: volunteer for Joe Apio. This level of apologism coming from

491
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: you right now is simply shocking. I don't know how

492
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: to deal with this, this cigol apology, sigologismogism. Yeah, that

493
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: is that is what I was working my way towards,

494
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: but I couldn't finish it. Yeah, thank you for delivering

495
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: the kuda grass. Yeah, me are coming out with the

496
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: some cops to Bastard to take scab. Okay, So what

497
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: what is Carrison's Carrisons deceased? They've've died Okay, So these

498
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: badge factories, like the ones in Lake Arthur and Geermany

499
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: trade influenced cash your connections for a badge and the

500
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: right to carry a gun nation why Mercer and his

501
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: son in lawd. George Wells have supported the town generously

502
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: and so the most kind of the best investigated example

503
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: of this right because Bloomberg went after him and Bloomberger publication,

504
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: not Bloomberg the dude. He went down there personally Bloomberg

505
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: he formed an alliance with apparently at one point this

506
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: with this police department did to a raid on a methhouse.

507
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: And I would love to see like Bloomberg forming alliance

508
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: with the methilers of Lake Arth to fucking take on Murcer.

509
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: So if Bloomberg can take on nine to eleven single handedly,

510
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: surely he can bust up whatever whatever operations going down

511
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. One hundred and fifty Stephen Seagals, would

512
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: you rather fight one Bloomberg size Stephen Seagal? And yet

513
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: don't don't do not bother messaging me. I know he

514
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: wasn't the mayor during nine to eleven. That was the joke.

515
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: Don't bother messaging me, I already know than no, no, no,

516
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: I wrote, Okay Garrison's Twitter again, I write a case.

517
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: He also famously dropped Staten Island Phil Bloomberg. You guys

518
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: don't know about State nine. Staten Island Phil is a groundhog.

519
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: This This will be in a Bastards episode as well,

520
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: So it's a second mentor of Staaten isl and Phil

521
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: for some people. Staten Island Phil is a groundhog similar

522
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: to Puck's attorney Phil. Yeah, but he lives in Staten

523
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: Island and that's fortunately. Yeah, we would we say that

524
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: a second second. Pretty pretty disgusting take from me anti

525
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: Staten Island this way, this is why MEA gets canceled episode. Yeah,

526
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: going back the time and getting rid of the Yankees

527
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: hings of the state. Sure yeah yeah. Unfortunately, build a

528
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: Blasio dropped the groundhog on its head and it died. Yeah,

529
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: build really build a Blazio the groundhog. It's reduced popularity.

530
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: Everyone who's been the mayor of New York is a

531
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: piece of shape, unhinged. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah,

532
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: like fucking the current mayor just what lked TV to

533
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: Tay and talked about how he has this magic smudge

534
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: that yes, so that he could absorb despair and ring

535
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: the despair. What the I'm so sick? The only thing

536
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: isolated New York was does the whole like there shouldn't

537
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: be any separation of church and say that is so

538
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: much funnier. He's doing a sham wow for sad. Oh

539
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: what a place, what a town? All right. So, if

540
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: you're wondering how much it costs for Mercer and his

541
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: son in law to carry downs everywhere, they paid at

542
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: least ninety three thousand to set up this thing called

543
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: the South East New Mexico Police Reserve Foundation, which you

544
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: know is doing the valuable work of supporting reserve cops

545
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: in Southeast New Mexico because they are the thin blue

546
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: line between us and people not being able to buy

547
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: concealed carry permits in all fifty states. I guess under

548
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: its bylaws of its half the foundation's net jews were

549
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: required to be paid to police departments whose reservists were

550
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: members of the foundation the time of its founding. All

551
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: of the members were Like Arthur reservists, So just a

552
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: good public public benefit. Probably just money going around in circles.

553
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: He also paid for Lake Arthur officers to get SWAT

554
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: training in Vegas again, there is only one full time

555
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: cop and he's a volunteer. So some of the lads

556
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: went to Vegas, I guess, and this was a donation

557
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: that was probably tax deductible. The way that this came

558
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: out is when a quote unquote firearms expert from North

559
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: Carolina got drunk and shot his b they're in law

560
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: in the leg and why were you carrying bro like

561
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: you're a cop? And yeah, from their things began to unwind.

562
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: A lot of the other clients for this place are

563
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: people like bodyguards, and they were a client's cops, volunteer officers,

564
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: I should say. They're people who do close protection for

565
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: wealthy folks, right, and carry guns as part of that work.

566
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,479
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing it's their employers who are making these

567
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: significant donations to like Arthur that probably allowed these people

568
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: to reserve officers, which allowed them to carry in all

569
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: fifty states, which in turn allowed them to protect these

570
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: wealthy people. Right. So it's another and like it's important

571
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: to understand that like New York, for instance, declined before

572
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: this was before the bruined decision, I can still carry

573
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: permit applicant from like an FBI informant who had taken

574
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: down a biker gang. They were like, no, you don't

575
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: need to carry a gun. Like it was almost impossible

576
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: for people, even if they were like helping the cops,

577
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: to get concealed carry permits in some parts of the

578
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: United States and in California was very hard. Lots of

579
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: places before Bruin, Like, I think, what's it, Nancy Pelosi

580
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: had a concealed carry permit of Finstein, this is the

581
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: whole thing, Okay, so this was this was Finestein that

582
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: One of the other scamps for this is you can

583
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,959
Speaker 1: get deputized as a federal marshal. There's like a bunch

584
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: like I like Finestein's rumored who have done there's like

585
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: a bunch of like every like a bunch of sort

586
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: of like California like Congress people have done this that

587
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: like they get they get deputizes marshals and so they

588
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: can do this shit. Yeah, incredible stuff. Yeah, it's so

589
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: I guess what I want to come back to is

590
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: like all of these laws, right, all of these gun

591
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: control laws and are circumventable if you have enough money. Right,

592
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: So if you want a nice brand new gun that

593
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: doesn't mic Ris damp, it doesn't have the it doesn't

594
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: have the magazine disconnect. And like modern the modern Harry

595
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: guns especially, you're a lot nicer than they were in

596
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Right, They're smaller, they have a higher capacity.

597
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: You can put a little red dot site on them

598
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: if you want to. And if you want one of

599
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: those things, you can have it in California as long

600
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: as you're rich and if you're If you're not, then

601
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 1: you can't. The same applies with this fifty state carry

602
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 1: right if you want to carry a gun all around

603
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: the country, and even now with Bruin, states are not

604
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: required to recognize each other's concealed carry permits. Right, So

605
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: I have a concealed Harry permit in California. It's not

606
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: recognized by any other states because California doesn't recognize any

607
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: other states carry permits. So I can apply for one Arizona.

608
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: That costs me more money. But if you want to

609
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: carry in all fifty states, you can just make this

610
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: donation to the corps. Right, And you can almost all

611
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 1: of these things, right. These are the only examples Mere

612
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: cited the federal marshal thing. Another one is the NFA right,

613
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: the National Firearms Act YEAH Act, which like, essentially, it's

614
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: not illegal to have a suppress there. It's not illegal

615
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: to have a short barreled rifle. It's not illegal to

616
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: have a machine gun. Actually, you just have to spend

617
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: a shit ton of money to get one, which a

618
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: mercer has a collection of machine guns. I guess, so

619
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: all of these things. Yeah, it's great, it's fine. It's

620
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: it's great that we live in a country with with

621
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: two tiers of rights for people. Those are those those

622
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: machine guns are totally going to be used for normal,

623
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: completely normal things in twenty years. Yeah. Yeah, a totally

624
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: normal guy who were using for normal stuff and just

625
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure like to make holes in paper with his friends.

626
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: And it's not problematic at all that to be as

627
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: rich as this guy is, you have to be a

628
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: problematic dude. And it maybe those are the people who

629
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't be having guns, yeah, but instead it's it's it's

630
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: going to be poor people who can't be having guns.

631
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: And I think, regardless of what you think, and it's

632
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable to think that there should be fewer guns

633
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: in this country. It's it's perfectly reasonable to leave that.

634
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: And I think, like it's perfectly reasonable to think what

635
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: the fuck should we do about the fact that kids

636
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: get shot in schools. That's not an unreasonable starts at all.

637
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: But if the way around it is saying, well, only

638
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: rich people get to shoot people, then that that's not

639
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: really a solution. It's just kind of the appearance of one.

640
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: And I don't think any of us suddenly, if we

641
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: were on the left, should should really support that. Yeah,

642
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: that's where we are in California, which is great. Yeah.

643
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: So that's about all we've got on this. If people

644
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: are interested in seeing more about either the Mercer case

645
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: or the public records I have, we'll put them all

646
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: up on our sources page. You can find our sources

647
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: page on there could Happen Here website, and we put

648
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: all our sorts out there for all our episodes. So yeah,

649
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: go check that out. Anything else to finish off with, guys?

650
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: The cops having guns, bad cops being cops, bad cops? Yeah?

651
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: Oh well, what about Stephen Cigar I made. This is

652
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: a dramatic change of form from your earlier start. I only,

653
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: I only ever argued that he was slightly more violent

654
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: than a normal cup. That was the extent of my argument.

655
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: He is only slightly more violent than a regular cup.

656
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: She is flip flopping on the some some cops issue. Again,

657
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: you can send me your opinions on the police. She's

658
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter at I write Okay, hello and welcome to

659
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: it could happen here once again? Who sit by myself

660
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 1: Andrew as we talk about whatever. So we have two

661
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: special guests, Sprout and Sherry Anne from the Black Flow Collective,

662
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: and they has talked to us about the dicought me

663
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: between Uban and rural plats organizing. I mean, as we

664
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: can all recognize, in this day and age, being plicitly

665
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: active is incredibly important. There are a lot of vulnerabilities

666
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: that we are all facing on the intersection of systems,

667
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: and we are looking for weez to get out, but

668
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: it could be difficult to naviate, especially when you don't

669
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: know exactly where to begin. That's part of the focus

670
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: of my channel and it's also something that these folks

671
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: are here to talk to us about. But before we

672
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: delve too deeply into the meat to that discussion, let's

673
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: begin with a quick introduction. You know, who is Black

674
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: Flow Collective, How did you all begin and what are

675
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: some of your goals as a group. Hey, this is

676
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: Sprout and We got started organizing with the Black Flower

677
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: Collective through previous organizing projects here in Aberdeen, Washington, such

678
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: as the Chehala Server Mutual Aid network. That collective got

679
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: started after the Black Lives a matter of rebellion in

680
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: so called Seattle and was started by feeding the movement

681
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: out there in Capitol Hill and Chaz and then brought

682
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: that organizing effort back to the community to start a

683
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: food and out bombs here in town. Through those meetings

684
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: and relationships that we formed, we got to know the

685
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: local homeless in town and started getting to know their

686
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: needs as we tried to fill them with our mutual

687
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: aid efforts. And out of those conversations over meals, we

688
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: learned that one of the biggest needs was some sort

689
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: of home base where people like us trying to support

690
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: the community could come together and cook meals together and

691
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: serve them in a collective area. Yeah, having a safe

692
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 1: place to be able to just cook food and plan

693
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: other types of organizations or collectives is imperative because we

694
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: faced a lot of backlash from the reactionary politics around

695
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: our town being in the kind of the heart of

696
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: trump Land, and the type of people that show up

697
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: in the big city protest to mow people down with

698
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: their trucks and whatnot right and how has that affected

699
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: your old reach efforts. What'd you see? Thankfully not too harshly,

700
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: but we've definitely had some scary situations. There was one

701
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: time at the homeless camp we were told about by

702
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 1: the campers there where somebody had tried to like run

703
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: down a tent that somebody was sleeping sleeping in. They

704
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: may just like jump out at the like like you know,

705
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: before they got hit, and they jumped out of the

706
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: truck and was like waving of a like a police

707
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: baton or some sort of like stick or something or

708
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 1: something around threatening people. Somebody got like a bigger stick,

709
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: which prompted them to get in their car and start

710
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: waving a pull out a pistol and start waving that

711
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: around before they ended up driving off. Yeah, sometimes when

712
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: we get new volunteers, there can be a bit of

713
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: hesitance from people to like you know, take food or

714
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: supplies because there's a bit of a relationship that needs

715
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: forming there of trust because of those actions of right

716
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: wing actors in town. So it's kind of like, you know,

717
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: what is why you're out, you're feeding, So there's a

718
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: bit of hesitance there, but once they realize they're with

719
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: our group, we've established enough of a reputation that you know,

720
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: that name drop is usually enough to to re establish

721
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: that trust, right, but it's good that you'll love somewhat

722
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: established yourselves, you know, locally and builds up a reputation.

723
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: Would you see that that has been one of your

724
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: media goals as a group, to build that trust in

725
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: the community and where you'll see that trust go in

726
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: from where it is now. I've always seen that personally

727
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: as our only asset. We don't have a lot of money. Obviously,

728
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: we're not funded by anyone, so all we really have

729
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: is our reputation in the in the community and in

730
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: the wider community. Our reputation has led to some of

731
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: that backlash that Sharia was talking about, but within the

732
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: actual on housed community, you know, we have a reputation

733
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: of doing whatever we can to help people and always

734
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: showing up consistently and you know, always being willing to

735
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,720
Speaker 1: go the extra mile when someone needs something in crisis.

736
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. So having had some experience with

737
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, working in the various movements that were

738
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: happening in twenty twenty. What would you see some of

739
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: the media differences that you've noticed between organizing in media

740
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: cities and in uban areas compared to rural posical organizing. Well,

741
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: I'd say the majority of the issues we've noticed depend

742
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: on the material conditions of the town that we're in.

743
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: Being a small and rural area, there's a lot more

744
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: property here, and so those material conditions lead to a

745
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: lot of differences between urban and rural areas. I found

746
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: before come into the area, I was involved with Occupy

747
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: Oakland back in the day, so I had a bit

748
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: more of a running with the larger city, larger cities

749
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 1: way of doing things. And what would you share in Well,

750
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: I've grown up here in this town my whole life

751
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: and have a really left outside of it all too much.

752
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: This type of organizing is always uff that I heard about,

753
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: more so through rumors than anything else. Soursus actually seeing

754
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: people on the ground and doing things. Once we got

755
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: our food not bombs chapters started during twenty twenty, it

756
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: opened kind of just a new a new world for

757
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: not just myself, a lot of people around here. Right. So,

758
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: one major difference that we've noticed that is the dichotomy

759
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: of electoral politics in the town. Most of the opposition

760
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: that we've faced has not been from the city but

761
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: from grassroots initiatives, and so some of those people over

762
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: the course of the last two years have taken positions

763
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: on city council, but the police that they control are

764
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: still demonstrate an unwillingness to attack their own community in

765
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: the way that far right politicians would want them to. Yeah,

766
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: so take like the police that show up and the

767
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: like big city protests and whatnot. They'll bring in all

768
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: police stations from all surrounding areas, people who aren't familiar

769
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: with the community, who you know, it's just a job

770
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: to them, which helps sever that they're connectioned that that area,

771
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: while here it's the same people dealing with the same

772
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: people every day. And in the minds of police, it

773
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: does create create like a sense of community in their

774
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: mind that makes them a little more reluctant to use

775
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: the type of violent force that we see in in

776
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: the bigger cities. And it's not to say that force

777
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: isn't present and doesn't happen here, but it definitely doesn't

778
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: happen on the frequency. If I could run back a

779
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: second by way this is me. I'm also on this episode.

780
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: Um yeah, if I could, if I could walk back

781
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: a second, ask or something. When when when you say

782
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: that most of the resistance to what you've been doing

783
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: is from grassroots movements, is that like, like, are you

784
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: talking about like sort of grassroots like right wing political movements.

785
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: Are you talking about sort of NGOs opposing you or no? Like,

786
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: we have a local grassroots right wing initiative in town

787
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: that's been the main breadth of our our little groups

788
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: opposition and they have, like I said, they have run

789
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: and won a few city council seats since then. But

790
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: it started as a grassroots you know, clean up the

791
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: trash sort of campaign. Yeah. Yeah, you could still find

792
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: their page on Facebook. It's a save our Aberdeen, Oh God,

793
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: save our Aberdeen please soap and they got like little

794
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: soap bubbles and whatnot, and they're here to clean up

795
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: the city streets. Said, Oh boy, I don't think they're

796
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: talking about the trash, not trash as we would define it. Yeah,

797
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: so sort of right, So this is a place where

798
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: sort of like right wing like anti homeless stuff has

799
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: been has been their sort of main way to build organization. Yeah,

800
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: it's a. It's a huge I mean, I don't really

801
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: even know Sherry, And like, what other talking points do

802
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: they have other than the homeless. Everything centers around the homeless,

803
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: Even stuff that has to do with like businesses in

804
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: town and local economic that gets blamed on the homeless.

805
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: You know, everything gets blamed on the homeless. So it

806
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: really all goes back to that. Yeah, they are the

807
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: scapegoat for every problem that the city council faces, or

808
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: not just the city council, but businesses. You run a

809
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: shitty business, it's it's the homeless's fault. I don't have

810
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: customers say it has nothing to do with the fact

811
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: that I haven't sold anything in years and this is

812
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: just a hobby shop for me because I got a

813
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: fat inheritance. But yeah, I'm talking about you all that glitters.

814
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: Oh we call the names no, so you speak. You

815
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: spoke about how this um, this grassers right wing movement

816
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: has picked up some steam and wanted some seats into

817
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: city cone. Soum. But one thing I recognize about grassroots

818
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: movements is that they tend to have to sort of

819
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: balance their goals with the trust they need to build

820
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: with the broader public, with the perception that the public

821
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 1: has of them, and how are they trying to shape

822
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: that perception. So how would you see that the public

823
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: of Aberdeen views the right wing initiatives the Soup movement

824
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: as your reference in And how do you think that

825
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: the of tentative view Black fol collective. Well, I think

826
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people feel scared to voice their opinions

827
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: if they're on the left in town. But we do

828
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: get a lot of support for the mutual aid that

829
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: we do the the base of the other The right

830
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: wing movement in town is pretty strong, and you know,

831
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: I don't see them drawing in a whole lot of

832
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: new people because of their extreme nature and their tendency

833
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,959
Speaker 1: towards conspiracies, but they do have quite a substantial base

834
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: that whatever they say, they're gonna they're gonna agree with

835
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: and they're gonna go along with. Take for example, like

836
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: here about a year or two ago, um, I think

837
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: it was November twenty twenty one or augustum, there was

838
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: a big anti tran trans rally outside of a Star

839
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: Wars shop here in town that yeah, they had to

840
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: bring in a bunch of proud boys from you know,

841
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: out of town and the like filled their numbers from outside,

842
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, with outside help and whatnot, while chanting about

843
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: how Antifa was coming from Seattle to burn the shop

844
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: down and kill the shop owner and all this and

845
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: all the stuff that they had the guy during the

846
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: whole protest. They gave them like a bulletproof vest that

847
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: he's like walking around. Did they brought Matt Walsh the

848
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: fucking town? It was a mess? Wow. Yeah. It's really

849
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: a classic example of pot meat cattle with a lot

850
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: of their metric. In my experience, I think the majority

851
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: of the public though, does care about the issues that

852
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: the homeless are facing and the fallout issues from that,

853
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: but they kind of it's kind of this tug back

854
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: and forth between us telling them what's really going on

855
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: on the streets and the stories of people down at

856
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 1: camp and this other more right wing tendency to just

857
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: blame things on the homeless and take the simple route

858
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: of saying if we just get rid of these homeless people,

859
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: then our problems will be solved, and local efforts to

860
00:51:54,760 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: gentrify the area with the influx of Terry, a right

861
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 1: wing capitalist who's brought up like sixty properties in town recently,

862
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: and as well as just the local media landscape in

863
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: town has a right wing tinge to it. I mean

864
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: where we're at, everything has a right wing tinge to it.

865
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 1: But so it's hard because there's not a lot of voices.

866
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: Even though there is a lot of sentiment of caring

867
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: about the homeless, there's not a lot of voices that

868
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: are actually telling the truth of what's going on on

869
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: the streets. And so when you get all of the

870
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 1: lies and bullshit coming from the police and city hall

871
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: and just being reported verbatim by the papers in town,

872
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: it leads to a lot of people forming conclusions based

873
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: on faulty facts, and so they might think, oh, the

874
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: homeless did this, the homeless did that, And we go

875
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: into the comment sections every time and push back and say,

876
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, actually this is what happened. And it's actually

877
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: a lot of times that we get people, you know,

878
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: opening their eyes and saying, oh, I didn't know that.

879
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's not always just the standard dig your

880
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: heels and sort of thing that you see on social media.

881
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: Because it is a sort of smaller town, right, everyone

882
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: kind of knows everybody. Yeah, there's a bit more accountability

883
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: in that sense. If you're going to spout off online

884
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's likely and the grocery line after stuff.

885
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: Not only that, but it makes like for organizing a

886
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 1: general um and nonimidity a lot different of a um

887
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: of a tactic in how in how you use it,

888
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: because like say in the big city, you're constantly surrounded

889
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:50,280
Speaker 1: by UM security cameras everywhere you go. You're constantly being monitored,

890
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: watched or whatnot. But it's a lot easier just disappear

891
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: in the crowd, just another face the you know the other.

892
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: Like you can go out spray paint ditch got a

893
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: big deal in place like here in Aberdeen for example,

894
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: But like I could mask up and do everything, um,

895
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: you know I can. But if I get known in

896
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: any kind of sense of way by go out and

897
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: you know, spray paint a wall, it's like, oh, there

898
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: goes Sherry and you know, spray painted walls again. And

899
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: once once you are docks are identified, it's really hard

900
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: to undo that and just sort of renonymize yourself. So

901
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: we've taken an anonymity and our security in that aspect

902
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 1: very seriously from the get go. A couple of people

903
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: in our organization who didn't have faced, you know, public

904
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: harassment and stocking. So yeah, it is a big deal.

905
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: So you've managed to maintain a level of anonymity despite

906
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: elder jefflets in a small town. Yes, well, to a

907
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: large degree. To a large degree. Okay, there's different people

908
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: in our group. You know, it's not like our group

909
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: has rules about it. So some people use their real names,

910
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: some people don't. But those who are concerned about it

911
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: have been able to although it's it's difficult, and you

912
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: know once that, once that identification comes, you know, it's

913
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: pretty much games up. It also kind of has affected

914
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 1: our recruitment in the sense that people on the outside

915
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: looking in may see what we're doing as more dangerous

916
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: than it actually is because of those security concerns, and

917
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: they might be scared of retaliation and not want to

918
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: participate because of that. So we have taken to kind

919
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 1: of reducing the fire in our online social media's for

920
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: some of that mutual aid stuff, so that we don't

921
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: get as much of the backbash on those accounts. And

922
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: we found that it's helpful to have ancillary groups that

923
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: can go and do more autonomous stuff if we need

924
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: stuff done that it or said that as a're gonna

925
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: create more backlash, right, So have sort of different layers

926
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: of the organization. I remember the after futurist abolitioncy America's

927
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: one of the statements they had puts out they were

928
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: they had used it to move like my courizy in

929
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: the sense of having sort of different levels of network

930
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: in place. You have like the above ground level of

931
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: you know, more visible public face and action, whereas you

932
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: have that sort of underground, fungal network of anonymous and

933
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 1: probably more risky action taken place. Yeah, because we have

934
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: to sort of maintain a certain level of good will

935
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 1: in town for the mutual for certain sides of our organizing.

936
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: Organizing like the police, for example, they're always down at

937
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: camp and so having an amicable relationship with them is

938
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 1: advantageous in certain scenarios. So, yeah, splitting apart roles, I

939
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: would say, you know, one role being the public facing

940
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: side of things and one role being the more private,

941
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: autonomous group. And how would you see you're talking about

942
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: you some semi am a couple of relationship with the police.

943
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: How has that been sort of sort of set up?

944
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: You know, what was the basis of that. Well, as

945
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: we were mentioning the the the structure of policing is

946
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: a little bit different, since the police in an area

947
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 1: small like this is going to hire locally as opposed

948
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: to in large metropolis areas you generally see police department

949
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: in big cities hiring from the suburbs surrounding the area

950
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: leads to sort of like a foreign occupation feel. That's

951
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: definitely the feeling that I got when I was doing

952
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: stuff in Oakland was that the Oakland Police Department was

953
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: not made up of anyone who lived in Oakland. You know,

954
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: they were coming from the surrounding suburbs that were much

955
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: more affluent and removed from the problems of Oakland, and

956
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: they were just there to occupy by force. And so

957
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: we get more like the Andy Griffith feel out here,

958
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: where it's like the cops are, you know, the good guys,

959
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: who's trying, who's helping Grahama across the road, and you know,

960
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: will you know, carry your groceries up the stairs for

961
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: you and that kind of stuff. At least that's more

962
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: at least that's more the public perception. Anyway. They also

963
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: have a small tank and conduct all sorts of drug rates.

964
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: Rights to me, like, yeah, we're helping you, you know,

965
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: we're walking you down the road and carrying your groceries

966
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: in your house for you within all the shoe But

967
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: because of the small town aspects of it though, um

968
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: being able to like play on their um wanting you know,

969
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: for the ones who do want to help but are

970
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: misguided because they're cops acab um. But for the ones

971
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: who are trying to help, who aren't like specifically going

972
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: out trying to fuck over homeless people besides their jobs,

973
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, once who occasionally like go out and buy

974
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: stuff of their own money or whatever to like help

975
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: so or whatever, they'll kind of like rely on us

976
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: to deal with that side of the population so they

977
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: don't have to waste their time dealing with the homeless,

978
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: is how and which is allows us to deal with

979
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: more of the problems in the homeless community in house

980
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: versus having to get the police involved, right because you know,

981
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: the police aren't really treated or capable of resolving the

982
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of issues. For example, like my father, for

983
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: for example, UM, he was in and out of prison

984
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: his whole life, and after I was born and he

985
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: got out of prison that last time, Um, he had

986
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: a moment where he's gonna get ready to have a relapse. Right.

987
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 1: He went to his dealer's house. You know, he's there,

988
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: he bought his eight ball. He's sitting there and you know,

989
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: getting ready to do his thing and there's a knock

990
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: at the door and they opened it up and it's

991
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: police there. They got a warrant for the dealer. They're

992
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: raiding the house. And this one cop you know, pulls

993
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: my dad aside because he knows if the other cops season,

994
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: he's gonna send him straight to prison. And he's like,

995
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: you know, hey, you know, what are you doing here? Man?

996
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: And whatever possessed my dad to do it, he's like,

997
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: I just want to go home. He put the eight

998
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: ball in that dude's hand and cops kind of looked

999
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: at him, was like, just just get the fuck out

1000
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: of here, just go because he knew if the other

1001
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: cop you know, saw him, he would have sent him

1002
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: to prison right then, and the like again a cab,

1003
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: the like, this is, you know, the best story you're

1004
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: ever going to hear, our best story if a cop

1005
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: is a cop not being a cop pretty much? Yeah, exactly, yeah,

1006
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: every time. But you definitely get more of that here though.

1007
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: That their advantage to take over. Yeah, and we have

1008
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: a certain people in our group that can liaison better

1009
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: than others with the police, and so we've used that

1010
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: to our advantage as well. They've largely ignored, I want

1011
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: to say, the police, not the city. The city wants

1012
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 1: to stop us, it's like their undying wish apparently, But

1013
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: the police have largely ignored or shown tacit support for

1014
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: our efforts because they're members of the community and they,

1015
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: at least the older crop of officers, have been working

1016
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: these streets and seeing the same homeless individuals for in

1017
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: some cases longer than I've been allowed, So you know,

1018
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: there are relationships there, even it's even if it's one

1019
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: mediated by that position that being a police officer. Um,

1020
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 1: when you see someone struggling for that long, you know,

1021
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: it's it's hard not to be empathetic as a human.

1022
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: And so we've been seeing a bit of a shift

1023
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: now that they are all those officers are starting to

1024
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 1: retire and we're getting a new crop of younger, more

1025
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: gung ho police because who would who would vaun who

1026
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: would sign up to be a police officer in twenty

1027
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: twenty three, you know, other than people who have something

1028
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 1: going on with it. So yeah, but for a while

1029
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: there it was this, you know, that sort of old

1030
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: crop of police officers who had build relationships in the

1031
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: community and had that public image of being the helpful

1032
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: peace officer, as it were, which makes it hard to

1033
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: push back when you're when you're a group that's trying

1034
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 1: to advance, you know, abolitionists thinking and anti cop sentiments.

1035
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 1: When they are beating people with batons, it's easy for

1036
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 1: your community to look at that and be like, Okay,

1037
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: these guys are clearly the enemy. But when they're just

1038
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: you know, helping grandma across the street, it's a lot

1039
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 1: harder to make those arguments. So that's been one aspect

1040
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: that has made things difficult for us, and another dichotomy

1041
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: in the just the list of these in the mere

1042
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: differences between the conditions around organizing in a small town

1043
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: rural area versus bigger in cities such as say Seattle. Yeah,

1044
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: but despite all of their helpful nature there, they are

1045
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: enforcing local ordinances that criminalize then housed, despite the ruling

1046
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: out of the Ninth Circuit Court of Martin G. Boise

1047
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: that says it's unconstitutional to do so so, even with

1048
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: no alternative alternative shelter available. This year we have zero

1049
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: cold weather shelters in Aberdeen. They're still out there sweeping

1050
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,959
Speaker 1: people and telling them, hey, you've got to move along.

1051
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: When the maps handed out by the city say specifically

1052
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: you can sleep here and you can camp here as

1053
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: long as you leave enough space for pedestrians to get by,

1054
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: you can set up on the sidebox, and yet they

1055
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: move them along every day. Yeah, as you're talking about,

1056
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: you know, the different Ey caught to me is that

1057
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: you feace between urban and rurale political organizing. I would

1058
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: imagine that population is certainly an issue about that you

1059
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: might have to feace as you know, an organization trying

1060
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: to make a change in a small space, have your phone.

1061
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: It challenging to build your base and you know, get

1062
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 1: connections and stuff going. Yeah, for certain like, as we said,

1063
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 1: there's already the issues with the US having a more

1064
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 1: reactionary based politics in a lot of our population, and

1065
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: that's scaring what allies that we do have here. So

1066
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 1: it's definitely resulted in us having to do the best

1067
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: we can to network outside as much as possible. Yeah,

1068
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: there's not a really wide base of radicals to pull from,

1069
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: so we have to work with a bit wider ranging

1070
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: group of folks out here, although it has always shocked

1071
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: me how many people are willing to get involved in

1072
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 1: radical organizing here in town. You know, I think the

1073
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: smaller group size has led to a need for more

1074
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 1: connection and more listening in our decision making processes, which

1075
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 1: has been nice. I think we've gotten really good at

1076
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: operating as a small technique group, which may be organizers

1077
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: in larger areas where groups are larger, I have to

1078
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: deal with a little bit differently. You know. There's also

1079
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 1: the difference in terms of where we socialize. In places

1080
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: like Aberdeen, there's nothing to do in terms of social gatherings.

1081
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: There's no center of socialization in town. The only thing

1082
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: that we did have was the mall, which has been

1083
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: closed for a couple of years now. So there's not

1084
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 1: a lot to do in terms of activities, and there's

1085
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: also just not a lot of space, like physical space

1086
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: in which to gather as a community. That's why we

1087
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: are currently serving our through not bomb meals under a

1088
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: bridge because the city has removed all covered areas in

1089
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: one of the most rainy areas in the country. Yeah,

1090
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: Like when I go to like Seattle, for for example,

1091
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: I could walk into any business, any doorway, just about

1092
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 1: any street pole and see flyer after flyer after flyer

1093
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: for this event, this oncertaty, this group is doing this, this, this,

1094
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: these classes are taking place, etc. They straight up have

1095
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 1: a law against putting anything on the poles in town

1096
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: versus let alone. They're actually being any events happening worth

1097
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: using the poles in the first place, right right. So

1098
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 1: I would imagine that parts of your aims as a

1099
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: collective would be to find ways to bring the immunity

1100
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: together through those sorts of social events, in formal and

1101
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: formal for sure. And that's definitely a big part of

1102
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: our goal with the Black Flower Project is to create

1103
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: a sort of social center, a place for the community

1104
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 1: to come for various reasons and you know, experience whatever

1105
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: they might discover. So it sounds like you'll have a

1106
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 1: good lay of the land in terms of what is

1107
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: happening in the town and what sort of movements you

1108
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: want to be making. In the next part of this episode,

1109
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: you can join myself and Miya and Ryan and Sprout

1110
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: as we discuss the actions that Black Fowl Collective plans

1111
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: on taken in their community and what sort of material

1112
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: conditions they've continued to have to navigate in this space

1113
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 1: until then. I'm Andrew of the YouTube channel andrews Um.

1114
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: You can call me on Twitter at underscore sat Drew

1115
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 1: and support on Patreon dot com, slash Seeing Drew. And

1116
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: you could also check out Blackflower Collective and support their work. Yeah.

1117
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 1: You can find us at link tree, backslash, black Flower LLC,

1118
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: or Blackflower Collective dot no blogs dot org. You can

1119
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: also find our content at at link tree Backslash al

1120
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 1: thirteen twelve, where you can find our podcasts maltav Now

1121
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 1: and a bunch of our other projects by Saber Media.

1122
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: Thanks loot guys, Hello, and welcome to it could Happen here.

1123
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 1: Joining me again for this second part of two parts,

1124
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: shari An and sprout from the Black Flower Collective in Aberdeen, Washington,

1125
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 1: as they've joined us to discuss the dichotomy between urban

1126
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 1: and rural political organizing. Last week spoke. They gave us

1127
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: some background on exactly how the Black Flower Collective began

1128
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 1: and what sort of motivating factors they have been in

1129
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 1: their developments as an organization, as well as some of

1130
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: the dichotomies that they've experience between urban and rural political organizing.

1131
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: Now we're going to take a moment to explore some

1132
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 1: of the materials, some of the other material conditions that

1133
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 1: they have feast in their city or rather in this

1134
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 1: small hotel. Sure an, As we were talking about in

1135
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 1: the last episode, there's a huge difference between the modes

1136
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: of socialization um in big cities and then versus small

1137
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: towns like our own, you know, Pere, we socialize more

1138
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: like in our houses. You meet friends at at the

1139
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 1: homes of other friends houses, where in the bigger cities

1140
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 1: it's more so that you know, you went to a club,

1141
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 1: you went to an event, concert, class, what I have

1142
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: you um, And these are definitely things that have like

1143
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 1: evolved and developed based on the you know, just different

1144
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: material conditions. Like you know, there's not as many classes

1145
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: around here and you know, events and stuff like that

1146
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: because a people just don't have the money to go

1147
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,600
Speaker 1: to them and be there. Nobody has the money that

1148
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 1: really put them on or you know, any of that's

1149
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: a startup capital. There's not enough money coming through the town.

1150
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: That's why the far right are always trying to push

1151
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: this homeless narrative, because they're trying to make like turn

1152
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 1: this town into like a tourist town or something which

1153
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: makes no goddamn sense to me. There's nothing in this

1154
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: town to come here for us, But like, the only

1155
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: reason you're coming to this town is because you're driving

1156
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 1: through here to go to the ocean. That's it. Like

1157
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 1: the highway dumps out here and then it's old highways

1158
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,720
Speaker 1: back to the rest of the ocean. Sounds pretty isolated.

1159
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: It can be pretty isolating out here, but it doesn't

1160
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:49,720
Speaker 1: disconnect us from the overall struggle. Throughout our organizing, we've

1161
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: discovered that there's a lot of things that we can

1162
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:57,839
Speaker 1: do for urban comrades through our mutual aid. For example,

1163
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 1: rural people can do anything that is virtual, such as

1164
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: graphic design or web support. We can also offer up

1165
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: rural spaces for rest and recuperation for front light activists

1166
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 1: in urban areas. While we might not be present in

1167
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:17,879
Speaker 1: the heat of battle, we can make our isolation of strength,

1168
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:22,120
Speaker 1: as often people abused directly by the system require peace

1169
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 1: and solitude to recover from such trauma. We can also

1170
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 1: use our local networks to identify enemies and report this

1171
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 1: to the wider radical community out here. There is a

1172
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: huge number of out here and in the Pacific Northwest

1173
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,400
Speaker 1: in general, there's a huge number of white supremacists and

1174
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:49,639
Speaker 1: neo Nazi militias and organizations, and so they generally organize

1175
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: in small towns like Aberdeen. You see a lot of

1176
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:57,479
Speaker 1: that here, and so people living in those towns bear

1177
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: the responsibility, we think of reporting on the activities of

1178
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: those groups to the wider community, because a lot of

1179
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,720
Speaker 1: times what you see is, you know, it's kind of

1180
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:13,640
Speaker 1: like the police coming in from the suburbs. The extremist

1181
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:18,720
Speaker 1: often come in from the outlying rural areas, either in

1182
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 1: protest scenarios or you know, usually in protest scenarios. We

1183
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: saw a couple instances in which our local right wing

1184
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:35,759
Speaker 1: neo Nazi group went out to Chaz and was filming

1185
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: videos out there and collecting information for their organizing back here.

1186
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: So we can also be doing the same throughout the

1187
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 1: interim and collecting information on those groups for our comrades

1188
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 1: and urban areas, right right, That sounds like some really

1189
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: viable and pout and weeze to to build that sense

1190
01:13:56,200 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 1: of Uban rural solidarity. Yeah, yeah, because there's definitely a

1191
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:05,679
Speaker 1: lot of people out here that need UM some notes

1192
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 1: taken on them. UM for example, during the height of

1193
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty protests, Um, there is a small solidarity

1194
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 1: protest um that was essentially just five women that you know,

1195
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 1: holding a couple signs, and which resulted in a line

1196
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 1: of reactionaries and their assault rifles. The you know, the

1197
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 1: harass I get threatening this very small group of women

1198
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 1: of you know, if it says saying how Antifa was

1199
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 1: coming to the town and they were going to burn

1200
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:38,040
Speaker 1: the town down and all this stuff. Um, you got

1201
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 1: people like in uh in Walla, Walla, for example, you

1202
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: have Henry Contrera who utilizes what connections and whatnot that

1203
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,480
Speaker 1: he has out there to like call other white supremacists

1204
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: around the nation and would essentially be like, hey, you know,

1205
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 1: move here, We'll get you a job, we'll get you

1206
01:14:57,280 --> 01:14:59,320
Speaker 1: a house, we'll get you all set up. Just come

1207
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 1: here and organiz as with us. And we kind of

1208
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: have our own version of that here in Aberdeen with

1209
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 1: Cash McCollum, a leader of the Pacific Northwest wolf Pack,

1210
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:14,640
Speaker 1: our local neo Nazi group and people like that. I

1211
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: think it's only just them, that's a whole group that

1212
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 1: there are a whole social setting that follows them and

1213
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 1: us being in rural communities are going to have the

1214
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: best opportunity to keep tabs on that kind of stuff

1215
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:35,719
Speaker 1: and warn the wider community. Right, Yeah, that's that's absolutely vital.

1216
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:39,639
Speaker 1: And you know, one of my questions i'd prepared incoming

1217
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,759
Speaker 1: to meet with your I was going to ask, actually,

1218
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 1: you know, how can we avoid this sort of idea

1219
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,120
Speaker 1: that a lot of people have in their heads, A

1220
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:50,759
Speaker 1: radicals have in their heads? Did sort of the distant

1221
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,879
Speaker 1: commune trap? You know, this idea that you know, radicals

1222
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: they move out to the country, they set up the

1223
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 1: happy the commune. It either follows up pot into a

1224
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,679
Speaker 1: cult or just like pulls away from the broader struggle.

1225
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 1: But it seems like in some ways you'll have been

1226
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:10,839
Speaker 1: able to utilize that distance as a sort of a strength.

1227
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: And you've spoken quite a bit about how the real

1228
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 1: communities different ways they've been able to help Uban communities

1229
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,639
Speaker 1: in the broader struggle. But now I guess I want

1230
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: to tune the tune the tables a bit and ask

1231
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 1: what sort of we as Uban radicals can support the

1232
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 1: struggles within rural communities. Well, one way that we've seen

1233
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:38,640
Speaker 1: a lot of solidarity from urban comrades has been in

1234
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 1: the topic of harm reduction. It's really hard to access

1235
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 1: services out here where we're at. There's really only one

1236
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 1: player in town, and they are highly bureaucratic, and the

1237
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:56,720
Speaker 1: line to get any sort of social service from them

1238
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: is a mile long. Also, fun notes that Cash McCollum,

1239
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 1: person I talked about earlier, is on the board for

1240
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 1: that social service as well as long as as well

1241
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 1: as other people who are part of the Soap group. Yeah,

1242
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 1: so we've seen a large show solidarity from urban comrades

1243
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: sending us harm reduction supplies such as Narcan, which has

1244
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,679
Speaker 1: literally saved dozens of lives since we started that program.

1245
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 1: Healthcare in general is a tough issue for rural areas.

1246
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:35,600
Speaker 1: Transportation distances, lack of providers, lack of services, all of

1247
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 1: those things compound to make it really difficult to get

1248
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 1: appropriate healthcare. And so anytime anyone has any actual injury

1249
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 1: in town there, they just send them to Seattle and

1250
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:53,759
Speaker 1: right our hospitals out here are really terrible, and so training,

1251
01:17:54,160 --> 01:17:56,720
Speaker 1: I think would be a really vital need that we

1252
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 1: could benefit from a lot out here if we could

1253
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: get the medical collectives and the harm reduction collectives that

1254
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 1: exist in these more urban areas to conduct rural training workshops.

1255
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:14,600
Speaker 1: I think that that would be a huge benefit to

1256
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 1: not only just Aberdeen, any rural area that that was

1257
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:22,680
Speaker 1: to take place in, because that would allow those communities

1258
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: to start employing harm reduction and general first aid in

1259
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 1: their communities and prevent transportation out to these more metro areas. Yeah,

1260
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 1: the more we could do skill shares, the more we

1261
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: could do workshops, the more we could do radical classes

1262
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 1: or anything under the idea of kind of unschooling that

1263
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: we could do for rural communities is imperative because the

1264
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 1: outside of high school, unless you're going to college for

1265
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: something specific, there's just not much for learning out here.

1266
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 1: What about the next general what about that site of

1267
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: struggle in education? Well, I believe sprout could probably delve

1268
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: into this a bit more, but it definitely would say

1269
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:15,000
Speaker 1: that our ideas for you know, educations in the next

1270
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:17,640
Speaker 1: generation as much as everything kind of goes under this

1271
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 1: I forget the name of it, but it's this idea

1272
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 1: of the like seven years generation in our planning and

1273
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: the like, what what would this look like for the

1274
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:36,080
Speaker 1: next seven generations? Right? Seven generations? Sustainability all seven generations

1275
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: stewardship is another twom used, I think education is central

1276
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 1: to a community. It's really the same sort of you know,

1277
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:46,840
Speaker 1: you're going to get the same answer with all of

1278
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:51,360
Speaker 1: these healthcare, addiction, poverty, they're all interrelated out here. And

1279
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:59,800
Speaker 1: because education is so crucial, we have focused the Black

1280
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 1: Our Collectives initiatives on a lot of educational programs. So

1281
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 1: we're trying to get this space set up so that

1282
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: we can start having some revolutionary course works that we

1283
01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 1: can offer there. We would really like to develop it

1284
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: into a real campus for learning, both for youth programs

1285
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:26,559
Speaker 1: and for like continuing education GD and college level kind

1286
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:31,240
Speaker 1: of stuff. We think that the unschooling method is pretty

1287
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 1: cool where people can kind of just pace their own

1288
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 1: learning and decide what it is they want to learn.

1289
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:40,600
Speaker 1: So that's the method that we would go with, and

1290
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 1: we think that that allows for a lot more diversity

1291
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:48,559
Speaker 1: in the styles of learning that are employed, and through

1292
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 1: that you can kind of learn, you can kind of

1293
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 1: learn new ways of learning, I guess, which helps add

1294
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:01,479
Speaker 1: resilience to any community. And I think that a lot

1295
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 1: of those skills offered at a place like that, Like

1296
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 1: like Sherry I was saying, skill shares, I think a

1297
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: lot of that could come from We'll need to come

1298
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,000
Speaker 1: from urban communities because we don't have a lot of

1299
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:17,320
Speaker 1: that out here of our right, so hopefully right get

1300
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 1: our When we get our space set up, we can

1301
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 1: host all manner of gatherings and start bridging that divide

1302
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:27,439
Speaker 1: between the rural and the urban. Yeah, and I mean

1303
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,600
Speaker 1: I've been looting more about your space, did a bit

1304
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 1: of research on it um, you know, prior to the episode,

1305
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: and we stood food started token very inspiring stuff, very

1306
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:39,800
Speaker 1: much in the being of something that I plan on

1307
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:44,000
Speaker 1: doing locally here and turn on to be ago. Let's

1308
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 1: pretend that this is uh, lets pretend this is a

1309
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:51,760
Speaker 1: revolutionary vosion of shock tac. All right, Like, let's just

1310
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,480
Speaker 1: pretend this is an anarchist shock tac. Give me your

1311
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,479
Speaker 1: elevate a pitch for this space, Like, what is the

1312
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 1: plan there? Our plan is twofold. The property would be

1313
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:06,720
Speaker 1: divided into two separate sections. The public facing section would

1314
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 1: be dedicated to the social center we've been speaking of,

1315
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:13,120
Speaker 1: and the rest of the property would be what we're

1316
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 1: calling an eco village where residents would live. The social

1317
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 1: center will be where we centralize community resources, and the

1318
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,160
Speaker 1: self governed eco village would have immediate access to those

1319
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 1: shared resources. The plan is to run the Social Center

1320
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:33,839
Speaker 1: as a bit of a small business incubator for various

1321
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:37,639
Speaker 1: community initiatives that we've been talking about, and as well

1322
01:22:37,760 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 1: for the residents of the Eco village to start their

1323
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: own small person of businesses, because in our discussions with

1324
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 1: people on the streets, you know, everyone has an idea

1325
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,640
Speaker 1: of how to make money, and it's just always some

1326
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:56,560
Speaker 1: small barrier like paperwork or permits that gets in the

1327
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,880
Speaker 1: way of them starting to have their own income and

1328
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 1: that sense of independence. So we want to be able

1329
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:07,640
Speaker 1: to help with that. It would also obviously be a

1330
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 1: central hub for preparing and serving food, which has been

1331
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 1: the basis of all of our organizing so far is

1332
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:16,720
Speaker 1: the coming together and sharing of meals. We want to

1333
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 1: have an Internet cafeteria and a community kitchen there. We

1334
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: would also host hold space for the Mutual Aid Network

1335
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:30,919
Speaker 1: to store supplies and conduct its work both on and offsite.

1336
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 1: We want to have enough space to have a meeting

1337
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 1: hall for potential unions and start pushing on the unionization

1338
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 1: locally with the IWW. All of these spaces would be

1339
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:52,200
Speaker 1: rentable to the public, so the union hall, for example,

1340
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:55,800
Speaker 1: would be a great venue for an event that someone

1341
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,519
Speaker 1: wanted to throw, or perhaps the wedding even and so

1342
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: that be one source of revenue for the Social center,

1343
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:07,320
Speaker 1: as well as the bookkeeping, the back end bookkeeping services

1344
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:10,480
Speaker 1: that we're going to have as part of the business incubator,

1345
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:14,640
Speaker 1: and the permaculture design services that we're going to have

1346
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 1: as part of the eco village. The release sounds like

1347
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: a lot of the different ideas that I've had conversion

1348
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:25,640
Speaker 1: on my channel for some time now. You know, this

1349
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 1: idea of a sort of a library economy, in this

1350
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:32,839
Speaker 1: idea of the eco villages, the sort of public culture

1351
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: spieces and moods and centers of clunity, outreach and education.

1352
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:42,519
Speaker 1: I'd be lying if I didn't say say that that

1353
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: we're a huge fan of your channel. Actually appreciate that,

1354
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 1: appreciate that, and I'm honestly in tune. This project is

1355
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 1: something that really inspires me as well. Yeah, I'd like

1356
01:24:55,400 --> 01:24:58,920
Speaker 1: to say that none of this is from us. We've

1357
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:02,799
Speaker 1: taken so much inspire from other projects to cobble together

1358
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 1: this plan that, Yeah, it's been a real joy to

1359
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:11,760
Speaker 1: just go through all of everyone else's different content and

1360
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:13,479
Speaker 1: kind of see like, oh, this could fit with that,

1361
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:16,040
Speaker 1: and this could fit with that, and come up with

1362
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:18,639
Speaker 1: a plan that we really think could start to solve

1363
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 1: some of these issues that we're seeing in town. Right.

1364
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 1: I think that's the real one of the few beauties

1365
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 1: of the Internet these days, you know, the fact that

1366
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 1: it's still able to connect people and ideas from all

1367
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 1: over the police. Yeah, for sure. I wanted to ask

1368
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:38,240
Speaker 1: as you mentioned these sort of equal villages and that

1369
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:44,479
Speaker 1: that whole idea having spaces for housing and benefitting the

1370
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 1: people in that community, developing that sort of sense of interdependence.

1371
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,599
Speaker 1: I wanted to you know, you can't really talk about

1372
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:57,400
Speaker 1: urban and road rule and urban without bringing up the

1373
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 1: fact that Urbanizasha, you know, seems to ever crawl into

1374
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 1: the rural space. You know, like there's always this sense

1375
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:11,440
Speaker 1: of the encroachment of the city on the surrounding rural regions.

1376
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 1: What do you what is your teak on that? Yeah,

1377
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 1: it does seem to be a one way street. I

1378
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 1: think the model that we're trying to push is one

1379
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:25,000
Speaker 1: of the growth where you would see sort of a

1380
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:31,400
Speaker 1: reversal of that trend of gentrification or urbanization and you

1381
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 1: would see more of like a ruralizing of urban spaces

1382
01:26:35,439 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 1: to start having more green spaces, more growing of their

1383
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:46,599
Speaker 1: own food, and more production of agricultural products right there

1384
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: in the urban centers, right, you know, which is kind

1385
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 1: of what we want to do with the eco village

1386
01:26:55,680 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 1: is provide a bit of a model for how community organizing,

1387
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 1: of how a community could organize itself around the ecological

1388
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 1: principles prefigurative politics and action exactly. Another note that I

1389
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 1: guess I want to bring up before we start to

1390
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: come to the clues is, you know, again we've been

1391
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:22,000
Speaker 1: speaking a lot about the urban and the rule, but

1392
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:25,280
Speaker 1: one element, except in a you know, sort of a

1393
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:28,799
Speaker 1: passing sense of our discussion of the police, one element

1394
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 1: that's kind of been lost in that and that I

1395
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 1: know people might be asking about, is what about the suburbs?

1396
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 1: You know, like, do you see a space for organizing there?

1397
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 1: Way does that fit into that urban rule? That caught

1398
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,720
Speaker 1: to me what sort of focus is do you think

1399
01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 1: suburban organized says might want to tackle? Well, I think

1400
01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:56,920
Speaker 1: suburban comrades are probably gonna have a bit of both worlds,

1401
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 1: as it were, because they're not in the downtown core

1402
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,200
Speaker 1: of a city where most protests or sites of struggle happen,

1403
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 1: but they're also not out in the boonies in a

1404
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:13,720
Speaker 1: rural environment, so you know, they might have police that

1405
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 1: are a bit more preoccupied with the actual community and

1406
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:21,560
Speaker 1: actually from the community, and so they might need to

1407
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 1: take some lessons from the rural center or from the

1408
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:30,760
Speaker 1: rural areas in that regard and try to diversify their

1409
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:37,600
Speaker 1: group into multiple different roles, multiple different channels, so that

1410
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 1: they are having continuous backlash against a group that's just

1411
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 1: trying to feed the homeless. But at the same time,

1412
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:48,800
Speaker 1: you know, they have a lot of resources that rural

1413
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 1: people don't have access to, and so they could be

1414
01:28:52,240 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 1: coming into rural areas and providing those same sort of

1415
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 1: trainings and workshops that urban comrades could. And they could

1416
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 1: also be going into urban centers and learning and providing

1417
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:07,280
Speaker 1: workshops and skill shares. In those scenarios, I think they're

1418
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:11,000
Speaker 1: kind of a maybe play a bit of a buffer

1419
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 1: zone between the two. So what does the future look

1420
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 1: like the Black Folk Collective? You know what projects you're

1421
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 1: planning on tacklin in the end now, a couple of

1422
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:25,120
Speaker 1: months from now, a few years down the line, and

1423
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:29,519
Speaker 1: how can folk support Well, right now, we are definitely

1424
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:34,679
Speaker 1: focused on securing funding. The housing market is horrible. Property

1425
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:37,439
Speaker 1: prices are going up, and when there is a good

1426
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 1: deal on something, it's gone usually within a day, within hours.

1427
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:46,320
Speaker 1: So we are definitely full focused on fundraising right now.

1428
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:48,560
Speaker 1: We need to have the money on hand to be

1429
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:50,960
Speaker 1: able to jump on a piece of property when it

1430
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,360
Speaker 1: comes up, because we need a good deal and we

1431
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:55,760
Speaker 1: need a good amount of land to make sure that

1432
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:59,759
Speaker 1: we have the room to grow and build various projects

1433
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 1: in the future. Yeah, So the projects that we're focusing

1434
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:09,560
Speaker 1: on right now immediately is the Perma Culture Design Services,

1435
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:15,120
Speaker 1: and so if anyone wants to have us design their

1436
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 1: farm or garden or house or balcony, they can go

1437
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 1: to Blackflower Perma Culture dot no, blogs dot org and

1438
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 1: get started through that process there. Hopefully, once we get land,

1439
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 1: as you were saying, in the next five years, the

1440
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:38,479
Speaker 1: Perma Culture Design Services can grow into a permaculture design

1441
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 1: course that we could actually start offering people to come

1442
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:46,439
Speaker 1: and do like a two week intensive study on the

1443
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 1: building techniques that we're using on site in the eco

1444
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 1: village and on how to apply those back at home.

1445
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 1: Another project that we're currently working on is the bookkeeping

1446
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: This is sort of the bedrock of the business admin

1447
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:08,639
Speaker 1: side of things that we're going to be folding into

1448
01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:12,800
Speaker 1: the business incubator once we get that going, and we

1449
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 1: are looking into a couple of different grants for that.

1450
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 1: But as Sherry and said, you know, right now we're

1451
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:21,920
Speaker 1: focused on fundraising, so we are. We do have a

1452
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 1: couple of different platforms that we're collecting donations from and

1453
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 1: we are starting to plan a few benefit shows here

1454
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 1: locally in Aberdeen. So if anyone is in a band

1455
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 1: and wants to roll through and play a show for us,

1456
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 1: you know that would be much appreciated and then they

1457
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,479
Speaker 1: can just get a hold of us through our website.

1458
01:31:45,439 --> 01:31:49,679
Speaker 1: So our role in black Flower is trying to spread

1459
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 1: awareness help with this fundraising. Gave them kind of free

1460
01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 1: advertisement in order to help their growth. Mean Sprout and

1461
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 1: our podcast moltop Now are from the Sabo Media Collective,

1462
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:05,759
Speaker 1: which once things are going with good with black Flower,

1463
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 1: we're hoping to be housed by them to help grow

1464
01:32:10,240 --> 01:32:14,040
Speaker 1: our media efforts. But if another good way to help

1465
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 1: in supporting black Flower is to go to our website

1466
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:27,080
Speaker 1: at Sabo Sabot Media dot Noblogs dot org and share

1467
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 1: our podcast Maltov. Now check us out on social media,

1468
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:36,519
Speaker 1: on whatever social media you are on. From Collectiva masted

1469
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:43,240
Speaker 1: onto Facebook at Aberdeen Local thirteen twelve. We have articles

1470
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,600
Speaker 1: that we write on the Harbor Rat Report and a

1471
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:48,720
Speaker 1: whole host of other content for people to check out

1472
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 1: and share with donation links that all go to Black

1473
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 1: Flowers efforts. That's fantastic and I would encourage folks to

1474
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:59,919
Speaker 1: check out what they're doing and all these different platforms

1475
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 1: and well, that's been it for it could happen here.

1476
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,439
Speaker 1: It's been great to have you both from Black Flower Collective.

1477
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:13,160
Speaker 1: I've been your host for today. Andrew of the YouTube

1478
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:17,840
Speaker 1: channel Andrewism, which you can follow YouTube dot com slash Andrewism,

1479
01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:22,840
Speaker 1: on Twitter at underscore Saint Drew and on Peter dot

1480
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:26,559
Speaker 1: com slash Saint True. All power to all the people

1481
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: that's have your Thanks for having us, thanks for being on.

1482
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:51,560
Speaker 1: Thank you guys, great recording with you. My that's my

1483
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:59,000
Speaker 1: getting absolutely screwed over by the Medical Establishment Voice. People

1484
01:33:59,040 --> 01:34:03,719
Speaker 1: thought it was another Sheet podcasts. They were briefly extremely excited. Nope,

1485
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:08,559
Speaker 1: the Sheep, the Sheep podcast. Will I make no promises

1486
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 1: about the Sheep podcast. What we're going to tell them

1487
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:15,160
Speaker 1: about the Lost Sheep episode. No, yeah, okay, well T

1488
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 1: will just leave that one. Yeah, this is this, this

1489
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:22,559
Speaker 1: is it could happen here the podcast where you would

1490
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 1: think that the medical issue is a trans thing and

1491
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 1: it's absolutely not. And it's amazing and I love it.

1492
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:30,639
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's it's a podcast for I complain about

1493
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 1: medical issues and talk about other stuff with me as James. Yeah,

1494
01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:37,879
Speaker 1: I'm a person who complains about medical issues and sometimes

1495
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:43,160
Speaker 1: goes to Mexico to buy drugs yeay, legal drugs, medical

1496
01:34:43,240 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 1: drugs while we're while we're being recorded. This The thing

1497
01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:53,720
Speaker 1: that is making me think of is I was in

1498
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:58,400
Speaker 1: Oh god, I don't remember where Mexico I was. Um,

1499
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:02,280
Speaker 1: I was no very old, but so we took up,

1500
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:04,200
Speaker 1: we took a ferry and it was I got like

1501
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 1: so c sick. It was like the most ceasic we've

1502
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:09,720
Speaker 1: ever been. So we had to like go back and

1503
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 1: um we so I this My Spanish is not great

1504
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 1: at this time. My Spanish was much worse than it

1505
01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:18,560
Speaker 1: is now. Um, and we have to we go to

1506
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 1: this drug store and we're trying to find something that's

1507
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:22,840
Speaker 1: like an antic sickness drug and we buy this drug

1508
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:28,439
Speaker 1: called vomits in and we're looking same. When we're looking

1509
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:30,920
Speaker 1: through the the thing, we find the part where it's

1510
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:32,880
Speaker 1: say side effects, and I remember and I look at

1511
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:34,719
Speaker 1: this and I and I read it and it says

1512
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 1: lucas and I'm like, oh no, it's like, oh god,

1513
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 1: it wound up. Actually it was completely fine. Yeah, yeah,

1514
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,360
Speaker 1: I did not vomit over the rails again, hydrate on

1515
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 1: the ferry ride back. I have a good I have

1516
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:53,160
Speaker 1: a good inadvertent medicine hallucinogen story, and then we can

1517
01:35:53,240 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 1: we can actually do the podcast. And I was when

1518
01:35:56,360 --> 01:35:58,679
Speaker 1: I was a bit younger. I was climbing a mountain

1519
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:02,920
Speaker 1: in Morocco and became extremely altitude sick, like my fucking

1520
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:06,560
Speaker 1: nose was just like unleashing my blood. Like it was

1521
01:36:06,600 --> 01:36:11,160
Speaker 1: a real momentum. Yeah, I look great, and so I

1522
01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:13,880
Speaker 1: tried to get some medicine. We went somewhere and like

1523
01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, I speak French, but most of people spoke

1524
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:21,599
Speaker 1: Berber and it wasn't a language that I speak at all. Anyway,

1525
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:25,479
Speaker 1: I received some medicine which I took in the form

1526
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:27,719
Speaker 1: of I think like a powder that I'm mixed with honey,

1527
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:30,040
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, this is unique and different. Whatever,

1528
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 1: fuck me, did I have some incredible dreams. I just

1529
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:36,639
Speaker 1: kept taking it. I zone, well, it was definitely opium

1530
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,639
Speaker 1: was the thing I was taking. Was like, I bought

1531
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:41,680
Speaker 1: it down and was like, I this stuff just really

1532
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:44,760
Speaker 1: helped out my altitude sickness. One of the adults I

1533
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:52,400
Speaker 1: was with was like, ah, yeah, don't do drugs. Kids

1534
01:36:54,240 --> 01:36:57,640
Speaker 1: speaking of not doing drugs. Okay, So what we are

1535
01:36:57,760 --> 01:37:01,920
Speaker 1: here today talk about democracy, the opm of the masses. Yeah.

1536
01:37:02,360 --> 01:37:05,639
Speaker 1: So this this script was originally written in a period

1537
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 1: where High had spent an enormous amount of time being

1538
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:14,080
Speaker 1: forced to watch documentaries about what democracy was. And my

1539
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:16,519
Speaker 1: conclusion from all of this is that the history of

1540
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:21,280
Speaker 1: democracy begins with a mistranslation. Okay, so okay, what does

1541
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 1: that mean? The answer is that, Okay, the whatever someone

1542
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:27,840
Speaker 1: starts talking about democracy, the first thing they do is

1543
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:30,599
Speaker 1: they go, like, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna I'm gonna

1544
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:36,120
Speaker 1: start by translating the word democracy. Now, the most common

1545
01:37:36,200 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 1: translation that you'll see this like like everywhere, from like

1546
01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:42,800
Speaker 1: Astra Taylor's like documentary what is Democracy? To just like

1547
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:46,759
Speaker 1: the thing that's on Wikipedia holds that democracy is derived

1548
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 1: from two Greek words. Right, you have demos meaning the people,

1549
01:37:51,040 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 1: and cradouse meaning rule. So you put these two together,

1550
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 1: you get demos cradous, you get democracy. My Greek, my

1551
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:02,639
Speaker 1: camp announce greatly. Well, it's fine whatever, it is ancient Greek. Um. Yeah,

1552
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:04,679
Speaker 1: but you know that this means rule by the people.

1553
01:38:06,280 --> 01:38:10,960
Speaker 1: So okay. This translation has several advantages right Foremost among them,

1554
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:12,719
Speaker 1: it is simple enough to be taught to a school

1555
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 1: to school children, and catchy enough. That's a non zero

1556
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:17,679
Speaker 1: chance that, like the most pedantic of them will remember

1557
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,760
Speaker 1: it after the day after the test, which presumably is

1558
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:22,839
Speaker 1: the explanation for why this is. This is the translation

1559
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:25,639
Speaker 1: of democracy. It opens every single fucking thing people write

1560
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:33,680
Speaker 1: about democracy. Unfortunately appreciately for beleaguered grade school teachers and

1561
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:35,800
Speaker 1: and sort of those are of the broader populace as

1562
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:38,680
Speaker 1: a whole. This translation is so blatantly wrong that I

1563
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:41,400
Speaker 1: have been forced to start a thing about democracy and

1564
01:38:41,479 --> 01:38:47,759
Speaker 1: also about rioting yelling about ancient Greek. So great, okay,

1565
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:50,360
Speaker 1: so what what? What? What? What is the actual issue here?

1566
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:56,200
Speaker 1: The actual problem is the mistranslation of Credos in particular

1567
01:38:57,000 --> 01:39:03,200
Speaker 1: is incredibly important both conceptual and ideologically, and the actual

1568
01:39:03,360 --> 01:39:06,160
Speaker 1: sort of proper translation, and the implications of this are

1569
01:39:06,200 --> 01:39:10,160
Speaker 1: worth examining in some detail. So the other problem just

1570
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:12,600
Speaker 1: David Greybirds to way have mentioned a lot on this

1571
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 1: show wrote in his regrettably very poorly read essay There

1572
01:39:18,040 --> 01:39:23,640
Speaker 1: Never Was a West, He describes Kratos thus quote in

1573
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,400
Speaker 1: this This, in turn, might help explain the term democracy itself,

1574
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,120
Speaker 1: which appears to have been coined as something of a

1575
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:33,920
Speaker 1: slur by its elitist opponents. It literally means the force

1576
01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:38,720
Speaker 1: or even violence of the people Kratos, not arcos, the

1577
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 1: ancient Greek word for ruler, also the root of anarchism

1578
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:47,880
Speaker 1: or without arcos. So, yeah, so what he's saying there

1579
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:53,360
Speaker 1: wasn't Cretos a dude? Like he's dude, day I found

1580
01:39:53,400 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: dissolved him an immortal dude. Yeah he's Also he's the

1581
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: main character of the God of war Games. Okay, that

1582
01:40:01,720 --> 01:40:03,640
Speaker 1: is the thing I did not know, And hilariously that

1583
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 1: that is like him him being the main character of

1584
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:07,880
Speaker 1: the God of war Games. That is actually a better

1585
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: way to understand what Credos is than the rule by

1586
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:15,280
Speaker 1: thing that everyone usually translates. This app because like, like

1587
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:19,479
Speaker 1: ancient Greek has a perfectly good word for like rule

1588
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:21,840
Speaker 1: by right, it's arcos. It's the word of anarchisms, like

1589
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:23,840
Speaker 1: an an archos, it's but it's the word. It's like

1590
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:27,280
Speaker 1: the normal thing where you have a Greek derived word

1591
01:40:28,040 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 1: where you want to say rule by is that is arcos? Right? Yeah?

1592
01:40:32,120 --> 01:40:35,680
Speaker 1: But is not that right? Yeah, like all Gk is

1593
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 1: like that. But like democracy is specifically credos. And this

1594
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 1: is because what democracy literally means is rule by the

1595
01:40:43,640 --> 01:40:48,760
Speaker 1: violence of the people. Heat. Yeah, well and this, you know, okay,

1596
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:51,680
Speaker 1: so like this, this, this, this, like this sounds like

1597
01:40:51,800 --> 01:40:54,879
Speaker 1: I am essentially per clutching about translations, but the context

1598
01:40:54,920 --> 01:40:57,920
Speaker 1: you is actually important, right, as as Grammar points out,

1599
01:40:58,439 --> 01:41:01,120
Speaker 1: the sort of you know, Athens, which the example or society,

1600
01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 1: society against which the original antidemocratic philosopher is rail By

1601
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:08,000
Speaker 1: the way, this is like Plato hates democracy. Most of

1602
01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 1: the people who you read from sort of classical Greek

1603
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:14,680
Speaker 1: like yeah, philosophy despised democracy, even so they live in

1604
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:19,280
Speaker 1: them a huge you know, not not not not to

1605
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:22,640
Speaker 1: like whitewash Athenian society. But like these people are like

1606
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 1: sparta apologists, And it's like, yes, we haven't already. It's

1607
01:41:26,400 --> 01:41:28,080
Speaker 1: funny that people have definitely I don't know if they've

1608
01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 1: actually recovered Plato or red Plato or they just get

1609
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:35,400
Speaker 1: mad when Donald Trump doesn't win elections. But like this whole,

1610
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: like this whole like benevolent philosopher king ship has definitely

1611
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:43,599
Speaker 1: definitely made a comeback in recent years. And it's troubling. Yeah,

1612
01:41:43,680 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 1: And I think I think part of this this is

1613
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:47,080
Speaker 1: this is another complaint that I've had about sort of

1614
01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:50,880
Speaker 1: like the way that like the sort of like great

1615
01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:56,080
Speaker 1: authors thing is taught in in universities, is they deliberately

1616
01:41:56,320 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 1: like there is like an in in what in what

1617
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:01,760
Speaker 1: specific reading as they assigned there was like an incredible

1618
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:04,599
Speaker 1: intellectual effort that goes into making sure you never see

1619
01:42:04,640 --> 01:42:07,960
Speaker 1: the absolutely drained shit that these people believe. Like Plato.

1620
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:12,600
Speaker 1: Plato literally worships angular momentum. Yeah, like that is his

1621
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:18,000
Speaker 1: god is angular momentum um. Like he he's he hates democracy,

1622
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:23,360
Speaker 1: he loves like spurred in like oligarchy. Basically like all

1623
01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:24,920
Speaker 1: of this stuff is like that's like something like you

1624
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 1: don't read you know, as you get assigned Plato. It's like, yeah,

1625
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:32,120
Speaker 1: there's a huge like um as someone who's taught like

1626
01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:35,440
Speaker 1: a ton of universities. That's that's this huge fucking impediment

1627
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:38,880
Speaker 1: to you assigning that stuff. Like I've specifically tried to

1628
01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 1: assign different stuff in these like writing courses, which which

1629
01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:46,000
Speaker 1: ended up being like great white dudes of history. Right, Like, um,

1630
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:49,200
Speaker 1: like if you kind of signed different things, but like

1631
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,719
Speaker 1: the cost of of assigning those and that that cost

1632
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:55,320
Speaker 1: isn't born by you or the university, right, it's born

1633
01:42:55,400 --> 01:43:00,200
Speaker 1: by your students. It's massive. Like even if for while

1634
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:02,320
Speaker 1: there like we would just like a lot of texts,

1635
01:43:02,320 --> 01:43:04,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you take the time as a professor

1636
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:05,960
Speaker 1: to label out of text, you can take it to

1637
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:08,800
Speaker 1: a print shop, get them to photocopy it, and it

1638
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:11,120
Speaker 1: almost evers be you need to find someone who's willing

1639
01:43:11,160 --> 01:43:14,080
Speaker 1: to kind of play fast and news with copyright. But

1640
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:17,120
Speaker 1: still it will end up costing your students so much

1641
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:20,880
Speaker 1: more than the texts which are in the book that

1642
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:24,120
Speaker 1: you can fucking autogenerate the quizzes because the book also

1643
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:26,400
Speaker 1: has a website, and you still get paid, like you're

1644
01:43:26,400 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 1: doing a job when you're not so yeah yeah and

1645
01:43:29,880 --> 01:43:32,720
Speaker 1: bad yeah, and and this stuff has had you know,

1646
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:35,519
Speaker 1: like this has had sort of profound ideological influences, has had,

1647
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:38,439
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's has sort of profound has profound

1648
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:40,400
Speaker 1: influences on like the I mean just sort of the

1649
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:44,160
Speaker 1: way that like ancient Greece and Rome or like conceptualized

1650
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:50,240
Speaker 1: and and and I think this also really has you know,

1651
01:43:50,520 --> 01:43:53,080
Speaker 1: it hasn't It makes it very hard to see what

1652
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:56,320
Speaker 1: was sort of actually going on in a place like Athens.

1653
01:43:56,960 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 1: And you know, a great graper sort of points this

1654
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:01,480
Speaker 1: out right, like this is a sort of like exemplar

1655
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:05,639
Speaker 1: I like, you know, sort of it's as a sort

1656
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: of an examplar, like it is literally like the place

1657
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 1: for which like, like most descriptions of sort of democracy

1658
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:16,720
Speaker 1: are are are sort of originally about and Athens. You know,

1659
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:20,519
Speaker 1: we are trained to think of Athens as like, oh,

1660
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:22,280
Speaker 1: it's like well Athens, this is like the first democracy

1661
01:44:22,360 --> 01:44:23,680
Speaker 1: or whatever. This is like actually this is actually like

1662
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:25,960
Speaker 1: a very normal sort of society and it's not this

1663
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:30,240
Speaker 1: is a this is an extremely weird society. And what

1664
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:32,479
Speaker 1: what grammar sort of points out about this, right is

1665
01:44:33,439 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 1: you know the thing that that is you know, Okay,

1666
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:38,479
Speaker 1: so like there have been lots of societies over sort

1667
01:44:38,520 --> 01:44:40,719
Speaker 1: of the course of human like the you know, hundreds

1668
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:42,200
Speaker 1: of thousands of years in the sort of like course

1669
01:44:42,240 --> 01:44:45,679
Speaker 1: of human history, right that I've had collaborative decision making systems.

1670
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:49,839
Speaker 1: What is very, very weird and almost unique about Athens

1671
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:54,560
Speaker 1: is it has two things put together. It has a

1672
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:58,880
Speaker 1: decision making apparatus where people have equal say, and it

1673
01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:02,479
Speaker 1: also has a violent enforcement mechanism to impose the will

1674
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:04,920
Speaker 1: of the people on other people and as you know,

1675
01:45:04,960 --> 01:45:06,880
Speaker 1: as we'll get to you in a second, also impose

1676
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 1: the will of those people on other people. Most society, Yeah,

1677
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:13,000
Speaker 1: that that that that turns out to be a very

1678
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:15,559
Speaker 1: important part of sort of the evening empire, et cetera.

1679
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:20,920
Speaker 1: Exactly like who the people are? Yeah, this is people. Yeah,

1680
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:24,000
Speaker 1: well we'll get to that in a second too. But

1681
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:26,960
Speaker 1: so so most societies, grape or argues either have one

1682
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:30,360
Speaker 1: or the other of you know, having a having like

1683
01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:33,400
Speaker 1: a decision making apparential people of equals say, and a

1684
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 1: violent enforcement mechanism. Right, you have a lot of societies

1685
01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:39,599
Speaker 1: with collective decision making apparatus is that involve the entire community.

1686
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:43,800
Speaker 1: But the thing is, these these processes invariably sort of

1687
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:48,880
Speaker 1: like develop some kind of consensus process as a sort

1688
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:51,320
Speaker 1: of expedient to keep the community from just tearing itself

1689
01:45:51,320 --> 01:45:54,080
Speaker 1: apart through costs of conflict, right, because like, okay, like

1690
01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 1: if if you can't actually without the threat of force, right,

1691
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:01,639
Speaker 1: you can't actually have society where you constantly have really

1692
01:46:01,720 --> 01:46:05,960
Speaker 1: really controversial decisions being made by like fifty one forty

1693
01:46:06,040 --> 01:46:08,960
Speaker 1: nine splits where both sides absolutely hate each other and

1694
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:10,920
Speaker 1: one side as imposed over the other. Right, And in

1695
01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:13,200
Speaker 1: order to sort of like keep your like, you know,

1696
01:46:13,280 --> 01:46:16,320
Speaker 1: your like city or your state together, right, you have

1697
01:46:16,479 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 1: to actually create political solutions that you know, people people

1698
01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:23,680
Speaker 1: not not that they necessarily like fully agree with, but

1699
01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:25,560
Speaker 1: that they're willing to live with. And then you know,

1700
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:30,120
Speaker 1: this generates sort of like various so increasingly elaborate, sometimes

1701
01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:32,519
Speaker 1: not very elivable, but you know, various sort of forms

1702
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:35,959
Speaker 1: of consensus processes. On the other hand, you have societies

1703
01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:39,759
Speaker 1: with extremely violent enforcement mechanisms. But these societies are almost

1704
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:43,160
Speaker 1: always incredibly hierarchical, and they're ruled either by sort of

1705
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:47,080
Speaker 1: monarchs or oligarchs who just simply do not care about

1706
01:46:47,120 --> 01:46:50,880
Speaker 1: the notion that like people should rule themselves, or that

1707
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, other like other people who are not like

1708
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:57,120
Speaker 1: the king or the body of oligarchs should have like

1709
01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,800
Speaker 1: anything even remotely to do with me decisions. And that

1710
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:04,599
Speaker 1: that's what makes Athens really weird, right is Athens has

1711
01:47:04,720 --> 01:47:06,640
Speaker 1: both of these things. It has a sort of it

1712
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:09,560
Speaker 1: has like a violent it has a way of like

1713
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:15,320
Speaker 1: imposing decisions on people through violence. And also it has

1714
01:47:15,360 --> 01:47:17,280
Speaker 1: this principle that like people should be able to make

1715
01:47:17,320 --> 01:47:21,040
Speaker 1: decisions for themselves collectively by you know, like through through

1716
01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:22,960
Speaker 1: through a sort of process that doesn't involve them all

1717
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:28,840
Speaker 1: being ruled by just like some guy. And you know

1718
01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 1: what makes Athens and the other and the other sort

1719
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,519
Speaker 1: of Greek democracies, because there there are other democracies in

1720
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:36,120
Speaker 1: Greece over the sort of period that this goes on.

1721
01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 1: What makes them unique is that, like the people quote

1722
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:44,160
Speaker 1: unquote is composed largely of soldiers, as Gravery puts it.

1723
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:47,320
Speaker 1: In other words, if a man is armed, then one

1724
01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:50,519
Speaker 1: pretty much has to take his opinion into account. One

1725
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:53,920
Speaker 1: can see how this works, and it's starkists and Xenophon's analysis.

1726
01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:56,719
Speaker 1: I've been I have now been told by several dictionary

1727
01:47:56,800 --> 01:47:58,439
Speaker 1: sites that this is in fact how you pronounce it.

1728
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:01,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Anabassis sounds terrible to me, But a

1729
01:48:01,439 --> 01:48:05,400
Speaker 1: degree such as the will of and I Don't Know Dictionaries,

1730
01:48:07,439 --> 01:48:10,160
Speaker 1: which tells the story of a Greek army of mercenaries

1731
01:48:10,240 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: who suddenly find themselves leaderless and lost in the middle

1732
01:48:13,040 --> 01:48:16,479
Speaker 1: of Persia. They elect new officers and then hold a

1733
01:48:16,520 --> 01:48:19,519
Speaker 1: collective vote to decide what to do next. In a

1734
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,920
Speaker 1: case like this, even if the vote was actually sixty forty,

1735
01:48:23,400 --> 01:48:25,559
Speaker 1: everyone could see the balance of forces in what would

1736
01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:29,040
Speaker 1: happen if things actually came to blow. Every vote was

1737
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:33,280
Speaker 1: in a real sense a conquest. So what we're dealing

1738
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:35,840
Speaker 1: with here right in this is this is sort of

1739
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:39,920
Speaker 1: what democracy is. It's very rawest form. Is you are

1740
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:42,400
Speaker 1: dealing with a group of very heavily armed men who

1741
01:48:42,479 --> 01:48:44,599
Speaker 1: need to find a way to convince slightly more than

1742
01:48:44,720 --> 01:48:47,280
Speaker 1: half of the group to agree to help them impose

1743
01:48:47,360 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 1: their rule on everyone else. Do you know what I

1744
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:54,320
Speaker 1: will get you? Do you do? You know who will

1745
01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:56,760
Speaker 1: fail to pay your mercenary contract, leaving you stranded in

1746
01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 1: the middle of a Persian civil war which you have

1747
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:03,880
Speaker 1: backed the wrong side, Vladimir Putin. Yeah, don't take mercenary

1748
01:49:03,920 --> 01:49:07,800
Speaker 1: contracts on Vladimir Putin. And we're back. So, you know,

1749
01:49:08,080 --> 01:49:10,200
Speaker 1: as I was sort of saying, well, what we're dealing

1750
01:49:10,240 --> 01:49:11,960
Speaker 1: with here. Right, we have a group of a very

1751
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:14,639
Speaker 1: heavily armed men, and they need they need to find

1752
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:17,559
Speaker 1: a way to make you know, they need to find

1753
01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:20,040
Speaker 1: a way to make like half of like slightly more

1754
01:49:20,120 --> 01:49:23,439
Speaker 1: than half of the group agree with them to impose

1755
01:49:23,479 --> 01:49:26,519
Speaker 1: their sort of rule on everyone else. So it's slightly

1756
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 1: more technical terms, right, Athenian, you know, Athenian democracy or

1757
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:33,720
Speaker 1: democracy in the Athenian sense is composed of two code

1758
01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 1: determining elements fused together. There is a decision making apparatus

1759
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:42,439
Speaker 1: and an enforcement mechanism that you are code determining because

1760
01:49:42,479 --> 01:49:45,320
Speaker 1: the structure of the enforcement mechanism, which is fifty one

1761
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:47,880
Speaker 1: blokes with sticks beating forty nine blokes with sticks over

1762
01:49:47,960 --> 01:49:52,280
Speaker 1: the head, also determines the structure of the decision making apparatus,

1763
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:56,759
Speaker 1: which no longer needs to concern itself with the opinion

1764
01:49:56,840 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 1: of everyone in the group, as they would in a

1765
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:01,040
Speaker 1: society without the ability to sort of employee violence to

1766
01:50:01,120 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 1: enforce decisions, as long as they have enough people to

1767
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:08,120
Speaker 1: sort of militarily defeat a minority of the group. Right,

1768
01:50:08,360 --> 01:50:10,280
Speaker 1: you know, you could you could see how the structure,

1769
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:12,880
Speaker 1: how how the enforcement mechanism is is the thing that

1770
01:50:13,040 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 1: is structuring what the decision making process has to look like. Right,

1771
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:19,040
Speaker 1: It's the thing that sort of sets its limits. And

1772
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:22,200
Speaker 1: this is something that it turns out, is very very

1773
01:50:22,280 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 1: sort of important in what a democracy is. The enforcement mechanism, too,

1774
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:31,440
Speaker 1: is also determined by by the sort of decision making apparatus.

1775
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:35,759
Speaker 1: Because the people here are armed soldiers. So the fifty

1776
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:38,840
Speaker 1: one percent that becomes the sort of like basis of

1777
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:41,800
Speaker 1: of of the of democratic majority rule. You know, it

1778
01:50:41,960 --> 01:50:46,479
Speaker 1: literally composes the enforcement mechanism itself. And this sort of

1779
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:50,240
Speaker 1: double code determination is the origin of majority rule democracy. Right,

1780
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:55,280
Speaker 1: The institution that you know, in various forms, and we

1781
01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:58,880
Speaker 1: will get into this, like this has gotten increasingly less

1782
01:50:58,960 --> 01:51:03,320
Speaker 1: and less quote unquote democratic over time, but this, this

1783
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:06,120
Speaker 1: specific form is the thing that has come to sort

1784
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:10,120
Speaker 1: of define what democracy is. If we look at what

1785
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:14,200
Speaker 1: democracy is as a political project, though, right, what we

1786
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:16,600
Speaker 1: see is that the essence of democracy itself is to

1787
01:51:16,720 --> 01:51:20,040
Speaker 1: transform the majority from a simple count of military strength

1788
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:24,560
Speaker 1: into into a signal of morality. Right, The citizens of democracies,

1789
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:26,240
Speaker 1: and even even a lot of people who are either

1790
01:51:26,360 --> 01:51:29,160
Speaker 1: not citizens of a democracy and live in it, or

1791
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:32,920
Speaker 1: who don't live in a democracy simply believe that is

1792
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:35,040
Speaker 1: the moral right for a majority of people to be

1793
01:51:35,080 --> 01:51:37,920
Speaker 1: able to impose the will in a minority. This is

1794
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:39,720
Speaker 1: this is just this you know this this this is

1795
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 1: what This is what forms a kind of democratic common sense. Right.

1796
01:51:42,600 --> 01:51:45,679
Speaker 1: It is the thing that everyone believes that is sort

1797
01:51:45,680 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 1: of the basis of everything about how it democracy functions. Right,

1798
01:51:48,720 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 1: And you know, democracy is almost never framed this way

1799
01:51:53,640 --> 01:51:56,360
Speaker 1: explicitly except by you know, every once in a while

1800
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:58,160
Speaker 1: you'll get someone who makes his argument who is like,

1801
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:00,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, they're a billion they're or they're like,

1802
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:05,160
Speaker 1: you know what's his name? I yeah, high E will

1803
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 1: like like if you press him, or like Milton Freeman

1804
01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:09,000
Speaker 1: to also well, like if you pressed him, will make

1805
01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:11,320
Speaker 1: this argument, right, which is like no one actually wants

1806
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:14,639
Speaker 1: to live in a democracy because you know, like if

1807
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:17,320
Speaker 1: you you know, if if we actually live in a democracy,

1808
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:21,040
Speaker 1: everyone will just like increase our tax rate or like

1809
01:52:21,640 --> 01:52:25,280
Speaker 1: virginalized groups will like these are critiques made of the

1810
01:52:25,360 --> 01:52:28,800
Speaker 1: United States as well. And yeah, the earliest inception, right, yeah,

1811
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, I know what's his name? I think it

1812
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:31,600
Speaker 1: was I think was John Adams. So some of the

1813
01:52:31,680 --> 01:52:34,280
Speaker 1: early founders like very explicitly this is their argument against

1814
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:37,080
Speaker 1: like maybe maybe various was the anti democratic arguments against

1815
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:39,479
Speaker 1: giving anyone who didn't have property in the vote, which was, like,

1816
01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:41,920
Speaker 1: I think the exact line was, if you give people

1817
01:52:41,960 --> 01:52:44,639
Speaker 1: the vote, the first thing they will do is erase

1818
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:47,880
Speaker 1: the debts and redistribute the land. Yeah, which was a

1819
01:52:47,920 --> 01:52:50,760
Speaker 1: whole asked rebellion about this, right, Yeah, yeah, I wish

1820
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:54,320
Speaker 1: would have been based good program usually kind of kind

1821
01:52:54,360 --> 01:52:55,920
Speaker 1: of messed up in the US where you have to

1822
01:52:55,920 --> 01:53:00,280
Speaker 1: ask where that land comes from. But you know, yeah,

1823
01:53:00,320 --> 01:53:02,599
Speaker 1: but like, well, this is an argument you really only

1824
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:05,799
Speaker 1: ever hear from people who have like the only minority

1825
01:53:05,880 --> 01:53:07,680
Speaker 1: that makes this argument are people who have a ship

1826
01:53:07,760 --> 01:53:11,200
Speaker 1: ton of property who are like, oh god, and you know,

1827
01:53:11,280 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 1: and their their thing here is, well, okay, we need

1828
01:53:13,120 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 1: to make the system blessed democratic so that people can't

1829
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:19,160
Speaker 1: take our property away, yeah, or give property rights. Yeah. Yeah.

1830
01:53:19,200 --> 01:53:21,560
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, the reason for sort of

1831
01:53:21,760 --> 01:53:24,960
Speaker 1: pointing out that this is what democracy is in theory

1832
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:30,400
Speaker 1: is really sort of cynical and like reactionary. But the

1833
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:33,599
Speaker 1: thing that the reason this argument works a quote unquote

1834
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:35,280
Speaker 1: works with sort of like you know, with with sort

1835
01:53:35,280 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 1: of libertarians, is that this equation of sort of numerical

1836
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:42,479
Speaker 1: superiority with the more right to exercise power is like

1837
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:45,439
Speaker 1: the key underlying assumption of democracy. It is the idea

1838
01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:49,920
Speaker 1: without which democracy simply sees it the function. Right. But

1839
01:53:50,080 --> 01:53:52,599
Speaker 1: but this is something that you know, people don't talk

1840
01:53:52,720 --> 01:53:57,360
Speaker 1: about democracy like this, right, The sort of trick of

1841
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:00,040
Speaker 1: the democratic system is to make is to push the

1842
01:54:00,120 --> 01:54:02,680
Speaker 1: enforcement mechanism into the background. Right when when when you

1843
01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:05,080
Speaker 1: talk about democracy with like regular people, the thing that

1844
01:54:05,120 --> 01:54:07,120
Speaker 1: they walk and they normally they think about voting, right,

1845
01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:10,479
Speaker 1: but you know, and any any kind of thing that

1846
01:54:10,680 --> 01:54:13,519
Speaker 1: is like a collective like decision making process, right, a

1847
01:54:13,600 --> 01:54:17,720
Speaker 1: regular person is going to call democracy. And you know,

1848
01:54:17,960 --> 01:54:20,120
Speaker 1: there if that's kind of true. But but you know,

1849
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:22,160
Speaker 1: but if if if you want to sort of get

1850
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:26,720
Speaker 1: like technical about it, it's not. And there's an there's

1851
01:54:26,720 --> 01:54:30,639
Speaker 1: an incredibly large ideological apparatus that specifically built up around

1852
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:34,040
Speaker 1: making sure that people don't look at the way that

1853
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:38,200
Speaker 1: the that the enforcement mechanism is as much, if not

1854
01:54:38,440 --> 01:54:42,160
Speaker 1: more so a sort of key element of what of

1855
01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:44,360
Speaker 1: what democracy is than the part where you know, where

1856
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:46,120
Speaker 1: everyone comes together and make it makes a decision that

1857
01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:48,840
Speaker 1: everyone talks about all the time. I was watching an

1858
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:51,600
Speaker 1: interview with Gray but the other day the such things

1859
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:54,400
Speaker 1: I do in my free time, and he was talking

1860
01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:59,280
Speaker 1: about like democratic confederalism in Northeast Aria, right, and he

1861
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:03,400
Speaker 1: talked about it like democracy without the state, which I

1862
01:55:03,480 --> 01:55:07,760
Speaker 1: think is interesting, Like it's him using that vernacular definition.

1863
01:55:08,720 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 1: So okay, so I'm I'm taking a lot of the

1864
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:14,240
Speaker 1: arguments from self, Graaber wrote, but he he backs away

1865
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:17,280
Speaker 1: from the implications of his own argument, right yeah, and

1866
01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:22,000
Speaker 1: goes back to albeit like caveating there were and I

1867
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:23,640
Speaker 1: guess it's worth noting that there are a ton of

1868
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:29,200
Speaker 1: like hugely divergent like we're not like prisoners of etymology, right,

1869
01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:32,800
Speaker 1: like like yeah them meaning like I think it's Rosa

1870
01:55:32,920 --> 01:55:37,040
Speaker 1: Luxemburg who said government is uh politics in the people's

1871
01:55:37,120 --> 01:55:41,000
Speaker 1: interest or something. It's kind of bullshit tanky interpretation of

1872
01:55:42,040 --> 01:55:44,280
Speaker 1: like most people would see it as there are these

1873
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:46,920
Speaker 1: broad definitions, you know, and I think this is something

1874
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:49,640
Speaker 1: that like like Asher Taylor's documentary, right, like you know,

1875
01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:52,400
Speaker 1: part about that's good, Right, It's like there's I forget

1876
01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:55,320
Speaker 1: who says that there's this like kind of famous political

1877
01:55:55,400 --> 01:55:59,040
Speaker 1: line that's like I if if if if if there

1878
01:55:59,160 --> 01:56:01,320
Speaker 1: if there is a thing that everyone agrees is good.

1879
01:56:01,440 --> 01:56:03,840
Speaker 1: No one will agree on what it is, right, like

1880
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:05,760
Speaker 1: you know, and this is something that like, you know,

1881
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 1: like I think I think it's it speaks to the

1882
01:56:08,320 --> 01:56:10,680
Speaker 1: power I think it's specifically to the power of the

1883
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:14,400
Speaker 1: sort of like like the idea that more people being

1884
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:19,080
Speaker 1: like agreeing with something like gives gives legitimate gives legitimacy

1885
01:56:19,120 --> 01:56:21,520
Speaker 1: to that thing, which is that like every like like

1886
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:26,400
Speaker 1: even societies that are like not even like really remotely democratic, right,

1887
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:29,280
Speaker 1: We'll pretend that there's still democracies, right, like the Baptists

1888
01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:33,840
Speaker 1: have elections every sort of like psych right, yeah, I mean,

1889
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:34,960
Speaker 1: like like you know, this is this is the thing

1890
01:56:35,080 --> 01:56:37,680
Speaker 1: I think isn't very well understood, but like like this

1891
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 1: this was also a thing like for example, China has

1892
01:56:40,600 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 1: this Like Okay, sorry I I I as as as

1893
01:56:47,200 --> 01:56:49,600
Speaker 1: I'm preparing to explain this, I'm realizing that the China

1894
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:52,200
Speaker 1: wa like the like Chinese government experts are going to

1895
01:56:52,240 --> 01:56:53,800
Speaker 1: get mad at me because I'm I think I think

1896
01:56:53,840 --> 01:56:57,040
Speaker 1: I'm about to confuse the United the United Front with

1897
01:56:57,080 --> 01:57:00,880
Speaker 1: the United Front Works Department. But so chin China, like

1898
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:06,040
Speaker 1: technically speaking, is there are like other parties technically that

1899
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:10,640
Speaker 1: are kind of remnants from like you know, for exact example,

1900
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:13,240
Speaker 1: like the left faction of the KMT, which is like

1901
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:16,040
Speaker 1: the Chinese Nationalist Party. Right, there's there's like technically a

1902
01:57:16,120 --> 01:57:17,920
Speaker 1: faction of them that's part of this thing called like

1903
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 1: the United Fronts. There's like technically other parties and they

1904
01:57:21,320 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 1: have like this like consultative role. It's it's it's an

1905
01:57:23,440 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 1: incredibly convoluted in the elaborate system, but you know, like

1906
01:57:27,040 --> 01:57:29,720
Speaker 1: that whole thing and you you you can find you know,

1907
01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:32,920
Speaker 1: like the Chinese system is like not it's not democratic

1908
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:36,000
Speaker 1: in the sense of like you can like vote for

1909
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:39,320
Speaker 1: someone or like like okay, like it's not democratic in

1910
01:57:39,360 --> 01:57:41,040
Speaker 1: the sense of you can make a vote that will

1911
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:44,160
Speaker 1: make a thing happen, right, you know. And to be fair,

1912
01:57:44,280 --> 01:57:46,520
Speaker 1: the US is also not democratic in the sense of

1913
01:57:46,600 --> 01:57:49,040
Speaker 1: you can cast a vote and make a thing happen. Right,

1914
01:57:49,360 --> 01:57:51,640
Speaker 1: But this is sort of like you know, okay, like

1915
01:57:51,760 --> 01:57:53,480
Speaker 1: it is it is a in a society that is

1916
01:57:53,920 --> 01:57:56,120
Speaker 1: less democratic than the US, which is sort of astounding

1917
01:57:56,640 --> 01:58:00,160
Speaker 1: considering the US like doesn't even have one person one vote. Right. Well,

1918
01:58:00,280 --> 01:58:02,440
Speaker 1: we'll get into like republics a bit in a second,

1919
01:58:02,560 --> 01:58:06,520
Speaker 1: but like you know, like Chinese like quote unquote, democracy

1920
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:09,560
Speaker 1: is like not it has very little to do with

1921
01:58:09,760 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 1: like the principle of like the mote like fifty one

1922
01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:16,440
Speaker 1: percent of the population votes for a thing and it happens. Right.

1923
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:18,120
Speaker 1: But but you know, like if if if you if

1924
01:58:18,120 --> 01:58:19,880
Speaker 1: you look, if you look at the sort of rhetoric

1925
01:58:20,000 --> 01:58:22,200
Speaker 1: that you that you see from or in the internal

1926
01:58:22,280 --> 01:58:25,800
Speaker 1: justification of like like you know, you sort of like

1927
01:58:25,880 --> 01:58:28,320
Speaker 1: read chinesecratic documents, so you read sort of like that

1928
01:58:28,400 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: their pr stuff, Like they constantly talk about like, yeah,

1929
01:58:30,320 --> 01:58:33,480
Speaker 1: we're gonna make a more democratic society because like that legitimacy,

1930
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:38,160
Speaker 1: like the idea of democracy is really incredibly powerful and enduring,

1931
01:58:38,200 --> 01:58:41,120
Speaker 1: and it's something that like even like you know, like

1932
01:58:41,280 --> 01:58:42,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like I don't know, like the Saudis don't

1933
01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:45,880
Speaker 1: pretend to be a democracy really, but like most of

1934
01:58:45,920 --> 01:58:49,040
Speaker 1: the other like golf monarchies have like election ee things right,

1935
01:58:49,120 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 1: Like it's it's it's an idea that is that is

1936
01:58:52,200 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 1: enduring and powerful enough that even people who don't agree

1937
01:58:55,560 --> 01:58:59,080
Speaker 1: with it are forced to sort of like do this

1938
01:58:59,280 --> 01:59:05,440
Speaker 1: pageantry of it. And I think that's really interesting and

1939
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:10,600
Speaker 1: I think it explains a lot of the kind of

1940
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:13,800
Speaker 1: I mean, especially around to occupy. But I think it

1941
01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:18,000
Speaker 1: explains a lot of the kind of political movements that

1942
01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:21,920
Speaker 1: we've been seeing over the last about fifteen years, which

1943
01:59:22,040 --> 01:59:24,520
Speaker 1: is I think this is also an explanation for why

1944
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:27,120
Speaker 1: why we see so many riots as as a former

1945
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:30,160
Speaker 1: sorts as a form of politics, and why you get

1946
01:59:30,240 --> 01:59:33,920
Speaker 1: these demands that are sort of like, I don't know,

1947
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:35,920
Speaker 1: you you like in the two thousand eleven revolutions, and

1948
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:38,400
Speaker 1: so you sort of also see this now. You get

1949
01:59:38,400 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of very abstract calls for democracy

1950
01:59:40,760 --> 01:59:44,400
Speaker 1: while also doing things that like are quote unquote not

1951
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:47,600
Speaker 1: legitimate in a democratic society, like like rioting is not

1952
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:49,960
Speaker 1: supposed to be sort of like a legitimate political action

1953
01:59:50,160 --> 01:59:52,760
Speaker 1: in a society because you know, like this is whole

1954
01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:56,040
Speaker 1: like the AA, because there's a system under which violence

1955
01:59:56,120 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: is supposed to be administered, administered right, like you have

1956
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:01,120
Speaker 1: a state. The state is the thing that's supposed to

1957
02:00:01,160 --> 02:00:03,400
Speaker 1: do violence. If anyone else does it outside of that,

1958
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:07,280
Speaker 1: they're like, you know, they're an illegitimate extremist. But okay,

1959
02:00:07,440 --> 02:00:09,240
Speaker 1: if if we go back to a sort of base

1960
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:13,600
Speaker 1: definition of what democracy is, right, democracy is a collective

1961
02:00:13,640 --> 02:00:18,760
Speaker 1: decision making apparatus anti enforcement mechanism. It's like, well, what

1962
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:22,360
Speaker 1: is a riot? Right? A riot is both of those

1963
02:00:22,440 --> 02:00:25,280
Speaker 1: things happening at the same time. There are a bunch

1964
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:28,520
Speaker 1: of people collectively making a decision and then imposing that

1965
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:32,879
Speaker 1: decision immediately. Yeah, it's ap Thompson who called the Leadites

1966
02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:39,440
Speaker 1: collective bargaining by riot. Quite possibly, Yeah, yeah, it's it's

1967
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:42,560
Speaker 1: often like reference now and other stuff like like people

1968
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:45,600
Speaker 1: talk about like you know, like your you're here that

1969
02:00:45,720 --> 02:00:47,440
Speaker 1: used all the time. I think they're the origin of

1970
02:00:47,520 --> 02:00:50,880
Speaker 1: it is um what is it? Eric Hobsborn could be

1971
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:55,240
Speaker 1: Hobbsborn anyway. Yeah, Famously the Laddites were called collective bargaining

1972
02:00:55,280 --> 02:01:00,200
Speaker 1: by riot. Yeah. I think, well, I think there is

1973
02:01:00,200 --> 02:01:05,160
Speaker 1: something sort of interesting there about collective bargaining by sort

1974
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:08,080
Speaker 1: of physical force. You know, it's like the decision making

1975
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:10,800
Speaker 1: apparatus is happening outside of the sort of normal bounds

1976
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:14,120
Speaker 1: in which decision making apparatus is supposed to happen. And

1977
02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:16,960
Speaker 1: I think I think there's there's a sort of this

1978
02:01:17,080 --> 02:01:20,080
Speaker 1: isn't there's another I forget exactly which graver thing this

1979
02:01:20,240 --> 02:01:22,480
Speaker 1: is from, but that you know, there's graver this might

1980
02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:25,040
Speaker 1: actually this might actually be from Essive about Batman, which

1981
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:28,040
Speaker 1: is pretty funny. Um, what's he said? What's his take

1982
02:01:28,120 --> 02:01:31,640
Speaker 1: on Alfred's class status? I don't think he unfortunately, I

1983
02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:33,760
Speaker 1: think that's I think that's the one thing he doesn't mention.

1984
02:01:34,480 --> 02:01:36,680
Speaker 1: Pretty I'm pretty sure there's no Alfred discourse in it.

1985
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:40,480
Speaker 1: There's lots of other discourse. He calls how is it

1986
02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:44,760
Speaker 1: banging it? No, he calls joker. He calls one of

1987
02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:46,640
Speaker 1: the Batman villains as Zurza Nite, which I think is

1988
02:01:46,760 --> 02:01:51,680
Speaker 1: very funny. Um. Yeah, but you know, okay, he has

1989
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:56,400
Speaker 1: this argument about sort of like okay, how do you

1990
02:01:56,520 --> 02:01:58,920
Speaker 1: you know? So? So the the other part of democracy

1991
02:01:59,200 --> 02:02:01,440
Speaker 1: is it's is it's the part about the people right,

1992
02:02:01,680 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 1: And this is always a thing that's that's very much

1993
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:06,520
Speaker 1: in contention, like how do you determine what the people

1994
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:10,320
Speaker 1: quote unquote are? And you know the structure of Athenians

1995
02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:13,600
Speaker 1: to society is very much determined by who isn't isn't

1996
02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 1: included in the people right, Like you know, women can't vote.

1997
02:02:16,360 --> 02:02:18,760
Speaker 1: If you're a slave, you also can't vote. There are

1998
02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:21,520
Speaker 1: lots of people who are directly under Athenian rule who

1999
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:23,680
Speaker 1: can't vote, And are you know, not part of the

2000
02:02:23,720 --> 02:02:26,400
Speaker 1: people and therefore sort of like and and this this

2001
02:02:26,560 --> 02:02:29,720
Speaker 1: is in some sense the origin of like the trajectory

2002
02:02:29,800 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 1: democracy goes on, right, which is that the trajectory it

2003
02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 1: goes through his republicanism because you know, like the founders

2004
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:40,320
Speaker 1: of the US, right, if you look at this of

2005
02:02:40,400 --> 02:02:44,360
Speaker 1: that style of fifty fifty plus one style majority democracy, right,

2006
02:02:44,720 --> 02:02:46,600
Speaker 1: those guys you know, as we talked about, like they

2007
02:02:46,920 --> 02:02:50,720
Speaker 1: didn't want a democracy because they thought into democracy people

2008
02:02:50,760 --> 02:02:55,440
Speaker 1: would vote against their sort of like aristocratic interests. Yeah,

2009
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 1: and so yeah, like like yeah, it's like, well, all

2010
02:02:58,960 --> 02:03:01,040
Speaker 1: these people own slaves, all these people owned a bunch

2011
02:03:01,040 --> 02:03:03,800
Speaker 1: of land, all these people like I don't know, or

2012
02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:06,200
Speaker 1: like bankers and shit, and they're like, okay, so it's

2013
02:03:06,200 --> 02:03:07,920
Speaker 1: gonna be a bad idea if we let people like

2014
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:10,720
Speaker 1: decide what to do with our stuff. So instead, you know,

2015
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:13,000
Speaker 1: they go to this republican in structure. And the republican

2016
02:03:13,040 --> 02:03:16,200
Speaker 1: structure is I think very interesting because it takes the

2017
02:03:16,320 --> 02:03:21,800
Speaker 1: fifty plus one structure, right, but you know, it abstracts

2018
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:23,640
Speaker 1: it to the point where like the like you like,

2019
02:03:23,800 --> 02:03:27,760
Speaker 1: your vote for the most part basically simply does not matter.

2020
02:03:27,960 --> 02:03:30,040
Speaker 1: Like every once in a while, like a local election,

2021
02:03:30,120 --> 02:03:31,880
Speaker 1: it can do something. But you know, like what what's

2022
02:03:31,880 --> 02:03:37,120
Speaker 1: actually happening, right is is you're like you are selecting

2023
02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:40,800
Speaker 1: who is going to rule you. And you know, the

2024
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:43,920
Speaker 1: other part of this is that the enforcement mechanism becomes

2025
02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:48,360
Speaker 1: autonomous from the people itself, because you know, unlike unlike

2026
02:03:48,360 --> 02:03:51,480
Speaker 1: an Athenian thing, where like everyone's either like on a

2027
02:03:51,640 --> 02:03:54,560
Speaker 1: ship because they're like are you know, they're part of

2028
02:03:54,600 --> 02:03:56,440
Speaker 1: the navy, or they like you know, they can go

2029
02:03:56,560 --> 02:03:59,320
Speaker 1: strap on their fucking shield and like plates and grab

2030
02:03:59,480 --> 02:04:02,320
Speaker 1: their big ass spear, right and you know, it's like, well,

2031
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:04,200
Speaker 1: this is this is the state, right, the state is

2032
02:04:04,320 --> 02:04:08,920
Speaker 1: like fucking Jerry and his friend like Patrickliss or whatever

2033
02:04:09,000 --> 02:04:12,080
Speaker 1: the fuck, you know, like form forming a shield wall

2034
02:04:12,160 --> 02:04:14,720
Speaker 1: with the like the shields they have at home. You know.

2035
02:04:14,760 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 1: But but you know, and then that's the thing like

2036
02:04:17,680 --> 02:04:20,520
Speaker 1: in in in in sort of like warrior democracies of

2037
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:21,920
Speaker 1: that style, like they're there are short third like the

2038
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:24,160
Speaker 1: Cassatra Republic. I think that's same of it. Um they're

2039
02:04:24,160 --> 02:04:25,840
Speaker 1: they're these sort of like they're like you know, they're

2040
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:27,960
Speaker 1: like they're they're they're there. There are republics like this

2041
02:04:28,880 --> 02:04:30,880
Speaker 1: or quote unquote republic like this that that that exists

2042
02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:32,640
Speaker 1: in in various places in the world where you have

2043
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:36,720
Speaker 1: these sort of like military classes that you know, like

2044
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:40,400
Speaker 1: D fifty plus one, but those people, right, the unfortunate

2045
02:04:40,440 --> 02:04:43,440
Speaker 1: mechan mechanism is very is very very direct. In a republic,

2046
02:04:43,920 --> 02:04:46,760
Speaker 1: the unfortunate mechanism becomes autonomous, and also the decision making

2047
02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:51,240
Speaker 1: apparatus becomes both both of them become autonomous from like

2048
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:54,040
Speaker 1: the people quote unquote who are supposed to be making

2049
02:04:54,040 --> 02:04:58,320
Speaker 1: the decisions, and suddenly you have the situation where you know, okay,

2050
02:04:58,400 --> 02:05:01,680
Speaker 1: if you live in the US, right, it is very

2051
02:05:01,920 --> 02:05:05,320
Speaker 1: very clear that there are lots of things that everyone

2052
02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:09,920
Speaker 1: supports that simply like are not is not like like's

2053
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:13,840
Speaker 1: not happening right, Like you know, I mean you can

2054
02:05:13,880 --> 02:05:16,120
Speaker 1: look at sort of like universal healthcare, like I mean,

2055
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:18,720
Speaker 1: for exact another example that we could take that's I

2056
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:21,240
Speaker 1: think for poignant right now is like there was a

2057
02:05:21,280 --> 02:05:23,959
Speaker 1: pretty recent study on like what percentage of the population

2058
02:05:24,000 --> 02:05:26,920
Speaker 1: in the US supports trans people getting like frands affirming healthcare,

2059
02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:29,640
Speaker 1: and it was like seventy percent. And then you know

2060
02:05:29,680 --> 02:05:30,800
Speaker 1: what I mean, But you know, you look at a

2061
02:05:31,080 --> 02:05:32,560
Speaker 1: state by state basis, right, and it's like what we'll

2062
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:35,880
Speaker 1: be talking about this more sort of later, but you know,

2063
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:38,480
Speaker 1: basis like, well that's not fucking happening, right, people are

2064
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 1: just making it illegal. And it's very easy to look

2065
02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:44,240
Speaker 1: at this and go like, well, okay, so the principle

2066
02:05:44,320 --> 02:05:46,520
Speaker 1: of fifty plus one is being violated, right, Like, this

2067
02:05:46,680 --> 02:05:50,400
Speaker 1: is not a democracy. Something else has happens. One sort

2068
02:05:50,400 --> 02:05:54,000
Speaker 1: of solution to this is to go back to you know,

2069
02:05:54,320 --> 02:05:57,640
Speaker 1: is to very literally go back and ask the question

2070
02:05:57,760 --> 02:05:59,840
Speaker 1: who is the people? And and this is this is

2071
02:06:00,320 --> 02:06:02,240
Speaker 1: you know a lot of ways what occupy is doing, right,

2072
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:04,360
Speaker 1: Like occupies to answer this is like we are the

2073
02:06:04,480 --> 02:06:07,680
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent, right, It's okay, So like there there

2074
02:06:07,760 --> 02:06:10,760
Speaker 1: there is a thing that is claiming to be the

2075
02:06:11,040 --> 02:06:15,360
Speaker 1: like the demos in in democracy, which is you know, Congress, right,

2076
02:06:15,400 --> 02:06:19,320
Speaker 1: but like, okay, Congress trivially is not the people, right

2077
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:22,200
Speaker 1: and at the best a section of them, it is

2078
02:06:22,280 --> 02:06:27,000
Speaker 1: definitionally not in any any yeah right, you know, And okay,

2079
02:06:27,040 --> 02:06:28,800
Speaker 1: so you have you have lots of versions of this,

2080
02:06:28,920 --> 02:06:30,600
Speaker 1: like the American one tends to be a lot of

2081
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:32,960
Speaker 1: people sitting in square, you know, but like like like

2082
02:06:33,040 --> 02:06:36,400
Speaker 1: can can actually convening a a something that's kind of

2083
02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:38,000
Speaker 1: like a democracy. But even but you know that's the

2084
02:06:38,080 --> 02:06:42,080
Speaker 1: everything was like is occupy democracy, right, Like they don't

2085
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 1: have violence as like a political tool. Really, I mean

2086
02:06:46,000 --> 02:06:48,240
Speaker 1: this isn't to say that like there wasn't some weird

2087
02:06:48,280 --> 02:06:51,560
Speaker 1: shady shit that happens, but like, you know, like they

2088
02:06:51,640 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 1: don't have the ability to sort of like coerce people

2089
02:06:54,680 --> 02:06:57,840
Speaker 1: into accepting like a fifty one percent decision that people

2090
02:06:57,920 --> 02:06:59,800
Speaker 1: like genuine they can't lifts, right, So they don't they

2091
02:06:59,840 --> 02:07:04,080
Speaker 1: don't really like they in some sense, in challenging democracy,

2092
02:07:04,080 --> 02:07:06,320
Speaker 1: they create something that isn't really a democracy, right, They

2093
02:07:06,400 --> 02:07:08,480
Speaker 1: create a sort of like elaborate consensus process. And this

2094
02:07:08,640 --> 02:07:12,520
Speaker 1: is you know, like if if the Kratos part is

2095
02:07:12,640 --> 02:07:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a way of being I

2096
02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:15,920
Speaker 1: think for like ten minutes about a way to phrase this,

2097
02:07:16,080 --> 02:07:19,320
Speaker 1: but like if the if the strength and power is

2098
02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:22,800
Speaker 1: like is the people, and it's even distributed among the

2099
02:07:23,000 --> 02:07:26,800
Speaker 1: people as opposed to it's the state, and like if

2100
02:07:26,840 --> 02:07:29,120
Speaker 1: some of this theoretical abstraction of the will of the

2101
02:07:29,200 --> 02:07:33,240
Speaker 1: majority of the people, then that that leads to a

2102
02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:36,960
Speaker 1: consensus almost by definition, right like like if yeah, well,

2103
02:07:37,000 --> 02:07:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean I think I think the sort of breaking

2104
02:07:39,520 --> 02:07:43,280
Speaker 1: principle here is if you think that it is legitimate

2105
02:07:43,400 --> 02:07:45,960
Speaker 1: to use for a group of people to use violence

2106
02:07:46,240 --> 02:07:50,640
Speaker 1: to enforce something, and at that point everyone is still armed,

2107
02:07:51,400 --> 02:07:55,320
Speaker 1: then then you you you get a fifty plus one structure, right, right.

2108
02:07:55,840 --> 02:07:58,200
Speaker 1: But if if you don't think it's legitimate to use

2109
02:07:58,320 --> 02:08:01,080
Speaker 1: violence to coerce people into sort of like doing whatever

2110
02:08:01,200 --> 02:08:04,120
Speaker 1: the thing is you want to enforce, then by definition

2111
02:08:04,160 --> 02:08:06,840
Speaker 1: you get some kind of consensus process. But you know,

2112
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:09,960
Speaker 1: we we have a system that every everyone like thinks

2113
02:08:10,280 --> 02:08:12,400
Speaker 1: that what's happening, like you know, in some sense, like

2114
02:08:12,520 --> 02:08:16,560
Speaker 1: the ideological principle is that like you know, everyone thinks

2115
02:08:16,640 --> 02:08:18,440
Speaker 1: that what's happening is is you have a fifty plus

2116
02:08:18,520 --> 02:08:20,240
Speaker 1: one system. And that's where like the legitimacy of the

2117
02:08:20,280 --> 02:08:21,920
Speaker 1: system comes from, because like you know, we voted for

2118
02:08:22,000 --> 02:08:25,640
Speaker 1: these people, but also it's so clearly not and also

2119
02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 1: like the police are so clearly just this sort of

2120
02:08:28,320 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 1: like roaming like bandit force that is like not even

2121
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:37,960
Speaker 1: like remotely like it like they technically drawlogy missy from

2122
02:08:37,960 --> 02:08:39,240
Speaker 1: the people. But like you know, okay, like what what

2123
02:08:39,440 --> 02:08:41,440
Speaker 1: what what? What what happens if you try to convene

2124
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:44,480
Speaker 1: an assembly of the people in the US. The answer

2125
02:08:44,560 --> 02:08:46,520
Speaker 1: is they beat the shit out of you with sticks

2126
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,760
Speaker 1: and then tear gas you and then like start shooting you. Yeah.

2127
02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:52,440
Speaker 1: So you know, I mean this is this is sort

2128
02:08:52,440 --> 02:08:53,960
Speaker 1: of what you know, like like this, this is what

2129
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:57,400
Speaker 1: occupy prove, right, which is like if if you challenge

2130
02:08:58,000 --> 02:09:01,360
Speaker 1: the sort of the claim of the government to represent

2131
02:09:01,400 --> 02:09:03,840
Speaker 1: the people, right, because like, who, who the fuck are

2132
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:06,920
Speaker 1: these assholes to like to be like a hey, la, no,

2133
02:09:07,120 --> 02:09:09,000
Speaker 1: like we we we are the people. We are sort

2134
02:09:09,000 --> 02:09:10,880
Speaker 1: of like the legitimate manifestation of people. If you want

2135
02:09:10,880 --> 02:09:13,240
Speaker 1: to do anything, like you have to go through us. Well,

2136
02:09:13,240 --> 02:09:15,080
Speaker 1: it's like okay, so like how how how did they

2137
02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:18,200
Speaker 1: get that? How did they get that authority? Right? And

2138
02:09:18,280 --> 02:09:19,560
Speaker 1: the answer is they did it. They did it by

2139
02:09:19,560 --> 02:09:22,760
Speaker 1: staging an armed revolution and that that that's what their religion,

2140
02:09:22,760 --> 02:09:25,000
Speaker 1: That's what their actual legitimacy derives from, right, is they

2141
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:28,920
Speaker 1: they want they want the armed revolution, yeah, and violently

2142
02:09:29,040 --> 02:09:32,400
Speaker 1: dispossessed people of that before they did that, like pig

2143
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:35,320
Speaker 1: backing off colonialism to do an armed revolution. Yeah, and

2144
02:09:35,440 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 1: so like okay, but like you know, their their legitimacy

2145
02:09:38,400 --> 02:09:42,720
Speaker 1: is incredibly tenuous, right, Like this gives you this question

2146
02:09:42,960 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 1: of how do you determine like what you know, how

2147
02:09:45,920 --> 02:09:49,120
Speaker 1: does a democracy determine what the people are? And one

2148
02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:51,200
Speaker 1: one way that you can make a sort of counterclaim

2149
02:09:51,280 --> 02:09:54,320
Speaker 1: again against a democracy is by a like physically assembling

2150
02:09:54,360 --> 02:09:56,520
Speaker 1: a ship ton of people in a place and going

2151
02:09:56,680 --> 02:09:58,560
Speaker 1: like we are like physically we are the people and

2152
02:09:58,640 --> 02:10:00,440
Speaker 1: we are going to make decisions. You know that that

2153
02:10:00,520 --> 02:10:02,760
Speaker 1: can that can look like occupy with like a seven

2154
02:10:02,840 --> 02:10:05,520
Speaker 1: hour meeting about whether where we want to put plants right,

2155
02:10:06,040 --> 02:10:07,640
Speaker 1: or it can look then this is you know, you

2156
02:10:07,720 --> 02:10:09,440
Speaker 1: get this a bit and occupy but like or it

2157
02:10:09,720 --> 02:10:12,480
Speaker 1: can look like you know, here are one hundred thousand

2158
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:15,160
Speaker 1: people like they are going to fight there once you

2159
02:10:15,280 --> 02:10:17,560
Speaker 1: just like throw shit at the police until the police

2160
02:10:17,680 --> 02:10:20,560
Speaker 1: run away. And you know that that is that that

2161
02:10:20,760 --> 02:10:22,200
Speaker 1: that is a that is a thing that like we

2162
02:10:22,320 --> 02:10:25,000
Speaker 1: have seen in this country. This this will be like

2163
02:10:25,160 --> 02:10:27,640
Speaker 1: another episode, but this this this was a thing that

2164
02:10:27,760 --> 02:10:30,160
Speaker 1: happens in Mexico on two thousand and six in Wahaka,

2165
02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:34,080
Speaker 1: where people basically ran out the police by literally hundreds

2166
02:10:34,080 --> 02:10:37,440
Speaker 1: of thousands of people like wa waking up to a

2167
02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:39,480
Speaker 1: bunch of police, like a bunch of police just beating

2168
02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:42,280
Speaker 1: the ship out of like a bunch of striking teachers

2169
02:10:42,560 --> 02:10:45,360
Speaker 1: and then like picking up a brick and throwing it.

2170
02:10:46,280 --> 02:10:49,080
Speaker 1: You see it a little bit, not really but like

2171
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 1: in like pon deemos in Spain if you're familiar with that. Yeah,

2172
02:10:53,640 --> 02:10:55,960
Speaker 1: like they kind of their attempt to have people determined

2173
02:10:56,000 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 1: their policy platform, not lastly a successful one, but like yeah, well,

2174
02:11:00,440 --> 02:11:04,040
Speaker 1: I mean interesting, Obama did that too already. Yeah, this

2175
02:11:04,200 --> 02:11:06,360
Speaker 1: was the thing Obama had this job. Like one of

2176
02:11:06,600 --> 02:11:08,560
Speaker 1: Obama's initial pitches was like he was gonna have there's

2177
02:11:08,560 --> 02:11:10,560
Speaker 1: gonna be this like online thing where people could vote

2178
02:11:10,600 --> 02:11:12,880
Speaker 1: and like decide in policy things. And he immediately managed it.

2179
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:15,160
Speaker 1: And but damost also immediately like this this is this

2180
02:11:15,240 --> 02:11:18,240
Speaker 1: is one of the things that like this is this

2181
02:11:18,400 --> 02:11:19,800
Speaker 1: is like one of the ways you try to like

2182
02:11:20,000 --> 02:11:22,440
Speaker 1: capture this kind of like yeah, because what what what

2183
02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:24,600
Speaker 1: what you're what you're really see like when when riot

2184
02:11:24,680 --> 02:11:27,600
Speaker 1: police are like fighting like a bunch of people in

2185
02:11:27,640 --> 02:11:29,920
Speaker 1: the street, right, Like what what you're watching is is

2186
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:33,040
Speaker 1: two kinds of democracy fighting with each other. Right You're

2187
02:11:33,120 --> 02:11:35,960
Speaker 1: you're you're you're watching a sort of like like you're

2188
02:11:36,000 --> 02:11:39,000
Speaker 1: you're you're watching the crowd, which is and you know,

2189
02:11:39,240 --> 02:11:43,360
Speaker 1: a very very immediate like for like you know, literal

2190
02:11:43,480 --> 02:11:45,760
Speaker 1: form of democracy, right where you know, the crowd makes

2191
02:11:45,800 --> 02:11:49,880
Speaker 1: a decision and people do things fighting the police, who

2192
02:11:49,920 --> 02:11:52,040
Speaker 1: are like a very you know, the like the police

2193
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:54,880
Speaker 1: are technically like a part of a democratic system, right,

2194
02:11:54,920 --> 02:11:57,720
Speaker 1: but the police are just purely the sort of like

2195
02:11:57,920 --> 02:12:00,640
Speaker 1: like they're they're they're you know, they they they are

2196
02:12:00,760 --> 02:12:04,160
Speaker 1: the violence by which the people rule. And you you

2197
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:06,640
Speaker 1: are watching, but you're watching these two things sort of

2198
02:12:06,720 --> 02:12:10,920
Speaker 1: like clash with each other. And you know, I mean,

2199
02:12:10,960 --> 02:12:13,720
Speaker 1: I I think I think one of the sort of

2200
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:18,280
Speaker 1: like products of of of the way that republicanism like

2201
02:12:18,440 --> 02:12:21,240
Speaker 1: specifically developed or like a publicanism in the sense of

2202
02:12:21,320 --> 02:12:26,440
Speaker 1: like this is a republic not a democracy like yeah

2203
02:12:26,560 --> 02:12:28,800
Speaker 1: small like yeah small r but also in the sense

2204
02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:32,640
Speaker 1: of like, okay, so instead of you voting on things

2205
02:12:32,760 --> 02:12:37,280
Speaker 1: directly like you know, you vote for some asshole who

2206
02:12:37,960 --> 02:12:42,680
Speaker 1: yeah the police funding yeah whatever, right, like that that

2207
02:12:42,960 --> 02:12:46,040
Speaker 1: sort of like unmooring of of of the means of

2208
02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:48,880
Speaker 1: violence from the people, which was you know, which was

2209
02:12:49,040 --> 02:12:51,840
Speaker 1: is the essence of democracy good or bad? Right? And

2210
02:12:52,000 --> 02:12:53,960
Speaker 1: and and I would also say, like you know that

2211
02:12:54,120 --> 02:12:56,480
Speaker 1: can go like that that sort of like having having

2212
02:12:56,600 --> 02:12:59,040
Speaker 1: violence and democracy, like you know, violence and decision making

2213
02:12:59,040 --> 02:13:01,440
Speaker 1: being paired together, Like that's not always a good thing.

2214
02:13:01,440 --> 02:13:03,320
Speaker 1: That can go really really badly, right, Like you know,

2215
02:13:03,320 --> 02:13:05,880
Speaker 1: because like like for example, like a race riot, right,

2216
02:13:05,960 --> 02:13:09,360
Speaker 1: like like a clan march right is technical, like is

2217
02:13:09,440 --> 02:13:12,800
Speaker 1: technically an expression of democracy, right it is you know,

2218
02:13:12,960 --> 02:13:15,120
Speaker 1: it is a group of people convening themselves as the

2219
02:13:15,240 --> 02:13:19,160
Speaker 1: people and then doing an action. And you know, and

2220
02:13:19,640 --> 02:13:21,400
Speaker 1: like I this has been something I've been sort of

2221
02:13:21,920 --> 02:13:24,040
Speaker 1: been forced to think about a lot with the anti

2222
02:13:24,080 --> 02:13:26,800
Speaker 1: trans laws, which is that like trans people are, like

2223
02:13:27,440 --> 02:13:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, the most optimistic estimate you could like have

2224
02:13:32,040 --> 02:13:33,920
Speaker 1: is like maybe two and a half percent of the

2225
02:13:33,960 --> 02:13:35,720
Speaker 1: population if you assume based a bunch of people who

2226
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:37,720
Speaker 1: are trans and don't know that they're trans, right, Like

2227
02:13:39,200 --> 02:13:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, And and if if you were two and

2228
02:13:42,080 --> 02:13:44,720
Speaker 1: a half percent of the population in a in a

2229
02:13:44,800 --> 02:13:47,880
Speaker 1: fifty plus one system, it is very easy for fifty

2230
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:50,040
Speaker 1: one p there is no physical way that you can

2231
02:13:50,240 --> 02:13:53,280
Speaker 1: have like if fifty plus one percent of the population

2232
02:13:53,320 --> 02:13:55,600
Speaker 1: decides to kill you, while there's nothing you can do, right,

2233
02:13:55,720 --> 02:13:58,080
Speaker 1: Like there's no there's no amount of like voting that

2234
02:13:58,200 --> 02:14:00,960
Speaker 1: you can do that would make you not die because

2235
02:14:01,080 --> 02:14:03,400
Speaker 1: that that's the sort of like the terinad of the

2236
02:14:03,440 --> 02:14:06,080
Speaker 1: majority or whatever like or like that. Yeah, yeah, have

2237
02:14:06,200 --> 02:14:10,080
Speaker 1: you familiar with like the argument against utilitarianism that like

2238
02:14:10,840 --> 02:14:12,880
Speaker 1: the greatest good for the greatest number, or the greatest

2239
02:14:12,880 --> 02:14:15,840
Speaker 1: happiness for the greatest number, if you're looking to serve

2240
02:14:15,880 --> 02:14:17,840
Speaker 1: the greatest happiness the greatest number. If like ten people

2241
02:14:17,960 --> 02:14:21,440
Speaker 1: get two units of happiness from beating one person to

2242
02:14:21,520 --> 02:14:25,560
Speaker 1: death with sticks, yeah, yeah, Like she can't experience as

2243
02:14:25,640 --> 02:14:30,600
Speaker 1: much sadness as the experienced happiness, like democratic impulse in action. Yeah,

2244
02:14:30,760 --> 02:14:32,720
Speaker 1: and you know, like this is the thing that is

2245
02:14:32,760 --> 02:14:34,920
Speaker 1: again what we're talking about, like is normally brought up

2246
02:14:34,920 --> 02:14:37,280
Speaker 1: by like incredibly corrupt, corrupt and sort of vital the

2247
02:14:37,400 --> 02:14:39,200
Speaker 1: leads who want to protect their status. But like it

2248
02:14:39,440 --> 02:14:41,280
Speaker 1: is also you know, and like this is part of

2249
02:14:41,320 --> 02:14:44,720
Speaker 1: the reason why, for example, the US just fucking puts

2250
02:14:44,920 --> 02:14:48,520
Speaker 1: like immigrants to camps, right because they can't fucking vote, right, Like,

2251
02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:51,840
Speaker 1: they're they're not part of like quote unquote the people, right,

2252
02:14:51,920 --> 02:14:53,800
Speaker 1: Like there are large sections of the populations who are

2253
02:14:53,880 --> 02:14:57,800
Speaker 1: just you know, like booted from this entire process. Right. Um,

2254
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 1: this is an argument that William C. Anderson and Zoe

2255
02:15:01,400 --> 02:15:03,600
Speaker 1: sa Moods you make in the book as blackness resistance,

2256
02:15:03,600 --> 02:15:05,280
Speaker 1: which is that like yeah, like black people like fucking

2257
02:15:05,320 --> 02:15:07,800
Speaker 1: are not part of the ship, right, Like they're not

2258
02:15:08,240 --> 02:15:12,440
Speaker 1: like a constituentive like part of the people TM right yeah.

2259
02:15:12,440 --> 02:15:15,840
Speaker 1: And you know this they they they call this, they

2260
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:18,800
Speaker 1: call this the anarchism of blackness um, which is this

2261
02:15:18,880 --> 02:15:22,160
Speaker 1: sort of like it's it's a position of being like

2262
02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:25,120
Speaker 1: removed as like a legitimate sort of like subject in

2263
02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:29,080
Speaker 1: the state. Who can you know, exercise you're like democratic

2264
02:15:29,200 --> 02:15:30,560
Speaker 1: rights or whatever the fuck it is, like yeah, okay,

2265
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:31,840
Speaker 1: like lots of people have never had this, and you

2266
02:15:31,880 --> 02:15:36,080
Speaker 1: know this, even even even in this sort of like

2267
02:15:36,760 --> 02:15:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, relatively egalitari like you know, like there there

2268
02:15:39,640 --> 02:15:42,920
Speaker 1: have been like parts of the US, like especially the

2269
02:15:43,000 --> 02:15:44,560
Speaker 1: early US. Right. You have your like sort of like

2270
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:46,440
Speaker 1: New England town council Ryan, It's like, well, what is

2271
02:15:46,480 --> 02:15:48,160
Speaker 1: what is your New England Town Council vote to do.

2272
02:15:48,240 --> 02:15:50,440
Speaker 1: It's like, well, the votes to send out the fucking

2273
02:15:50,480 --> 02:15:54,040
Speaker 1: militia to kill indigenous people, right, Like, you know, even

2274
02:15:54,160 --> 02:15:57,200
Speaker 1: you can even even even when the US has functioned

2275
02:15:57,280 --> 02:16:01,520
Speaker 1: as something that is closer to like a like democracy TM,

2276
02:16:01,600 --> 02:16:03,120
Speaker 1: where like the means of violence and the means of

2277
02:16:03,240 --> 02:16:06,400
Speaker 1: sort of decision making are actually placed in direct directly

2278
02:16:06,480 --> 02:16:08,480
Speaker 1: in people's hands, right, Like that doesn't always go well,

2279
02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:13,000
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, but like you know, we we

2280
02:16:13,120 --> 02:16:17,280
Speaker 1: we we we have now developed a like we we

2281
02:16:17,400 --> 02:16:19,680
Speaker 1: we we developed a system that has like the worst

2282
02:16:19,720 --> 02:16:22,400
Speaker 1: of every single parts of every single aspect of this.

2283
02:16:22,600 --> 02:16:25,360
Speaker 1: Right we're like, okay, so we we we have fifty

2284
02:16:25,400 --> 02:16:29,120
Speaker 1: plus one as the sort of like legitimating factor, but

2285
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:32,160
Speaker 1: also fifty beside of the population plus one does not

2286
02:16:32,320 --> 02:16:35,080
Speaker 1: actually vote for a thing. It is possible for like

2287
02:16:35,879 --> 02:16:37,880
Speaker 1: more than half of the popular It's possible for a

2288
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:40,160
Speaker 1: majority of the population to vote for a businessio candidate

2289
02:16:40,200 --> 02:16:42,880
Speaker 1: you get a different one, right, like, yeah, it's possible.

2290
02:16:43,000 --> 02:16:45,480
Speaker 1: Like we've seen this, like so many fucking elections have

2291
02:16:45,600 --> 02:16:48,760
Speaker 1: had this now like two in my lifetime, like like

2292
02:16:49,520 --> 02:16:52,560
Speaker 1: and and also also we have we we we have

2293
02:16:52,720 --> 02:16:55,800
Speaker 1: the other part of it, which is that we also

2294
02:16:56,000 --> 02:16:58,920
Speaker 1: have like the the we have the other democratic principle

2295
02:16:58,959 --> 02:17:01,520
Speaker 1: of like you should be able to worse a political

2296
02:17:01,560 --> 02:17:04,560
Speaker 1: opinion by violence. Yeah, we got that in space. Yeah,

2297
02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:08,360
Speaker 1: and you know again, guess guess gets like guess guess

2298
02:17:08,400 --> 02:17:10,360
Speaker 1: who fucking guests to make that decision. It's not fifty

2299
02:17:10,400 --> 02:17:13,039
Speaker 1: plus one of you, Like, it's a bunch of assholes

2300
02:17:13,040 --> 02:17:16,520
Speaker 1: and suits and like six cops. Yeah, I think a

2301
02:17:16,560 --> 02:17:18,440
Speaker 1: good way to view the US. It's like a bunch

2302
02:17:18,480 --> 02:17:24,440
Speaker 1: of landowners made a system where land votes and people don't. Yeah, well,

2303
02:17:24,440 --> 02:17:25,960
Speaker 1: and then and then you know, and then and then

2304
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:28,400
Speaker 1: they went about making sure that like even if the

2305
02:17:28,480 --> 02:17:30,720
Speaker 1: land does vote for a thing, if it's not for yourself,

2306
02:17:31,040 --> 02:17:34,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen or seventy Yeah, there's seventy five weird

2307
02:17:34,920 --> 02:17:38,320
Speaker 1: dudes in between your vote and anything actually happening. Yeah,

2308
02:17:39,600 --> 02:17:41,879
Speaker 1: which is how you get like this kind of constitutional

2309
02:17:42,000 --> 02:17:44,520
Speaker 1: magic the trumpets are always trying to do because like

2310
02:17:44,640 --> 02:17:47,880
Speaker 1: it's not actually like that far from reality right there,

2311
02:17:48,000 --> 02:17:50,600
Speaker 1: there are like seventeen magic incantations I have to get

2312
02:17:50,680 --> 02:17:52,520
Speaker 1: said after you put your ballot in the box, and

2313
02:17:52,600 --> 02:17:56,360
Speaker 1: then an old white dude's in charge again. Yeah, but

2314
02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:58,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think, like, you know, the US system

2315
02:17:58,640 --> 02:18:03,400
Speaker 1: is like it's stunningly bad, like it's it's one of

2316
02:18:03,520 --> 02:18:06,440
Speaker 1: it's like a it's a really dogshit like tooroughly written

2317
02:18:06,480 --> 02:18:09,800
Speaker 1: democratic system like it is it is designed not to

2318
02:18:09,920 --> 02:18:13,280
Speaker 1: function like that that that was actually the point. Yeah, yeah,

2319
02:18:13,800 --> 02:18:16,400
Speaker 1: there's like a there's a king, a thing that like

2320
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:20,400
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have, like the fur the president is supposed

2321
02:18:20,400 --> 02:18:21,960
Speaker 1: to it's supposed to be a king, right, Like I

2322
02:18:22,000 --> 02:18:23,640
Speaker 1: think like if if, if, if you go back and

2323
02:18:23,760 --> 02:18:26,200
Speaker 1: read like what the balance of powers was supposed to

2324
02:18:26,240 --> 02:18:27,840
Speaker 1: be was like there they're doing the Roman thing of

2325
02:18:27,959 --> 02:18:30,320
Speaker 1: like you need like you need to combine to king

2326
02:18:30,360 --> 02:18:32,240
Speaker 1: in oligarchy and a democracy. And it's like, well, okay,

2327
02:18:32,280 --> 02:18:33,680
Speaker 1: so we have like a fucking king who could just

2328
02:18:33,879 --> 02:18:38,360
Speaker 1: like kill people. It's great, it's great, it's great, but

2329
02:18:38,480 --> 02:18:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, you know, okay, So the I think, I

2330
02:18:40,440 --> 02:18:43,560
Speaker 1: think the the the broad total argument that that I

2331
02:18:43,640 --> 02:18:47,040
Speaker 1: want to make here is that what we have been

2332
02:18:47,200 --> 02:18:50,320
Speaker 1: seeing over the last about fifteen years, right with the

2333
02:18:50,360 --> 02:18:52,880
Speaker 1: certain movement of the squares, with the series of uprisings

2334
02:18:52,920 --> 02:18:55,520
Speaker 1: that we saw I mean, you know in twenty twenty

2335
02:18:55,560 --> 02:18:57,480
Speaker 1: the US, but also like all over the world from

2336
02:18:57,480 --> 02:19:01,240
Speaker 1: about twenty eighteen to I mean, some of they're still

2337
02:19:01,240 --> 02:19:04,440
Speaker 1: some only them are still going like now right, you know,

2338
02:19:04,720 --> 02:19:07,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it's been a reaction to sort

2339
02:19:07,480 --> 02:19:10,240
Speaker 1: of this, right, it's it's it's been a reaction to

2340
02:19:12,080 --> 02:19:17,000
Speaker 1: democracy as a legitimating principle not matching like democray, like

2341
02:19:17,080 --> 02:19:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, even even even what the principle is supposed

2342
02:19:20,080 --> 02:19:22,840
Speaker 1: to be, and then people going out into the streets

2343
02:19:22,879 --> 02:19:26,360
Speaker 1: and doing democracy, and the sort of clash between like

2344
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:30,040
Speaker 1: democracy and theory and democracy and action mostly has resulted

2345
02:19:30,040 --> 02:19:33,520
Speaker 1: in democracy in action winning because it's it turns out

2346
02:19:33,520 --> 02:19:35,800
Speaker 1: the thing about Republicans is that they're really really really

2347
02:19:35,959 --> 02:19:40,680
Speaker 1: good at creating like military apparatuses that are very hard

2348
02:19:40,720 --> 02:19:45,920
Speaker 1: to defeat by just purely fighting them. Yeah, sadly. Yeah,

2349
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:52,960
Speaker 1: But however, Comma, sometimes they lose, and you know, and

2350
02:19:54,160 --> 02:19:56,640
Speaker 1: as as as as the as the old Ira thing goes,

2351
02:19:56,959 --> 02:19:59,160
Speaker 1: they have to get lucky every time. We only have

2352
02:19:59,200 --> 02:20:04,640
Speaker 1: to get lucky one, so you know, keep collectively bargaining

2353
02:20:04,800 --> 02:20:08,400
Speaker 1: by riot. Yeah, what the fuck else are you gonna do?

2354
02:20:08,600 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 1: You know, like vote like yeah, yea yeah, yeah, like

2355
02:20:13,640 --> 02:20:15,760
Speaker 1: your life depends on it. Kids, You can vote if

2356
02:20:15,760 --> 02:20:18,560
Speaker 1: you want to write like they're there are instances in

2357
02:20:18,640 --> 02:20:21,680
Speaker 1: which it might meaningfully reduce the cruelty of the state

2358
02:20:21,720 --> 02:20:25,280
Speaker 1: a little bit in some places sometimes, but yeah, it's

2359
02:20:25,320 --> 02:20:27,840
Speaker 1: not gonna it's not gonna like take away the central

2360
02:20:27,920 --> 02:20:33,360
Speaker 1: fucking connade of the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, so I

2361
02:20:33,800 --> 02:20:36,720
Speaker 1: do do do do do due democracy by rioting. That

2362
02:20:36,959 --> 02:20:42,440
Speaker 1: is our official legal position. This is legally I'm legally

2363
02:20:42,520 --> 02:20:46,120
Speaker 1: non actionable, but also legally actionable at the same time.

2364
02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:52,080
Speaker 1: This is called dialectrics. And yeah, this, this is what

2365
02:20:52,160 --> 02:20:55,240
Speaker 1: they could happen here. Find us in the places. I

2366
02:20:55,480 --> 02:21:00,400
Speaker 1: don't find us in the places. David Graber, I do that.

2367
02:21:01,000 --> 02:21:03,360
Speaker 1: Read The Never Was a West. It's great. Nobody reads it.

2368
02:21:03,560 --> 02:21:06,760
Speaker 1: It's it's really good. People have been asking for grade

2369
02:21:06,840 --> 02:21:08,440
Speaker 1: book because we keep talking about him. So you have

2370
02:21:08,520 --> 02:21:11,440
Speaker 1: read I never read The Never Was a West. Read

2371
02:21:11,480 --> 02:21:15,560
Speaker 1: Towards an Anarchist anthropology bullshit jobs. It's good to start.

2372
02:21:15,600 --> 02:21:18,720
Speaker 1: If you read, if you, if you, if you, if you,

2373
02:21:18,760 --> 02:21:20,440
Speaker 1: if you want to be the real grave head and

2374
02:21:20,520 --> 02:21:23,000
Speaker 1: read something that fucking no one has read, go read

2375
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:26,520
Speaker 1: towards an anthropological Theory of value. I read into one

2376
02:21:26,560 --> 02:21:28,000
Speaker 1: of my cudages It's super Market the other day and

2377
02:21:28,000 --> 02:21:31,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about that good book. No one has

2378
02:21:31,040 --> 02:21:51,000
Speaker 1: ever read it. Uh yeah, reads more gray, but yeah,

2379
02:21:51,160 --> 02:21:53,520
Speaker 1: it could happen here. If that's the podcast that you're

2380
02:21:53,560 --> 02:21:57,560
Speaker 1: listening to, it's a news podcast. About ship falling apart.

2381
02:21:58,480 --> 02:22:01,480
Speaker 1: That's the only intro you're going to yet, because Garrison

2382
02:22:01,760 --> 02:22:05,680
Speaker 1: is right now in the city of Atlanta, Georgia, reporting

2383
02:22:05,879 --> 02:22:10,760
Speaker 1: on the continuing Stop Cop City protests. Garrison's done a

2384
02:22:10,959 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 1: number of scripted episodes covering these in detail over the

2385
02:22:14,240 --> 02:22:16,640
Speaker 1: last year and change. They're in the thick of it

2386
02:22:16,800 --> 02:22:18,760
Speaker 1: right now, so I'm just going to bring them and

2387
02:22:19,040 --> 02:22:21,320
Speaker 1: a friend on to talk about what has been happening

2388
02:22:21,520 --> 02:22:26,320
Speaker 1: this week. Yes, that's your que this week. This week

2389
02:22:26,480 --> 02:22:29,040
Speaker 1: is a special week because this is the fifth week

2390
02:22:29,120 --> 02:22:31,720
Speaker 1: of action that has happened here in Atlanta as a

2391
02:22:31,760 --> 02:22:33,800
Speaker 1: part of these Top Cop City and if in the

2392
02:22:33,800 --> 02:22:36,360
Speaker 1: Atlanta Force movement. This episode is going to be like

2393
02:22:37,000 --> 02:22:40,480
Speaker 1: a midweek update because this this week of action is

2394
02:22:40,520 --> 02:22:44,760
Speaker 1: still very much ongoing. There's still many many days that

2395
02:22:45,120 --> 02:22:48,520
Speaker 1: that thinks can't happened, but a lot of a lot

2396
02:22:48,560 --> 02:22:51,560
Speaker 1: has already happened in these in these first few days anyway.

2397
02:22:51,720 --> 02:22:53,560
Speaker 1: So we're going to kind of do a quick a

2398
02:22:53,600 --> 02:22:56,320
Speaker 1: quick little update and then a more comprehensive piece will

2399
02:22:56,360 --> 02:22:59,040
Speaker 1: be later down the line, but with me here to

2400
02:22:59,280 --> 02:23:02,280
Speaker 1: help to talk about what's what's what's gone down so far?

2401
02:23:03,040 --> 02:23:06,600
Speaker 1: Is someone from the Atlantic Community Press Collective Clark, Hello,

2402
02:23:06,760 --> 02:23:09,560
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me on,

2403
02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:14,920
Speaker 1: So for being on. Yeah, we've we've been kind of

2404
02:23:15,040 --> 02:23:16,960
Speaker 1: we we've been. We've been kind of teamed up the

2405
02:23:17,040 --> 02:23:21,000
Speaker 1: past few days here as as many many, many things

2406
02:23:21,120 --> 02:23:25,560
Speaker 1: both silly and serious, have have taken place across Atlanta

2407
02:23:26,320 --> 02:23:30,920
Speaker 1: of safety US. Yeah, that it's always nice to have

2408
02:23:31,080 --> 02:23:34,640
Speaker 1: friends when you're watching jack booted thugs go fucking ape

2409
02:23:34,680 --> 02:23:36,760
Speaker 1: shit with all of their new toys. And I mean,

2410
02:23:36,800 --> 02:23:38,800
Speaker 1: I think that is part of the Week of Action idea,

2411
02:23:39,000 --> 02:23:41,760
Speaker 1: is getting as many people here as possible and hopefully

2412
02:23:42,320 --> 02:23:46,760
Speaker 1: some of that makes makes some people uh more safe. Um,

2413
02:23:47,560 --> 02:23:49,640
Speaker 1: that's something that we'll probably talk more more in detail

2414
02:23:49,720 --> 02:23:53,280
Speaker 1: later when we have kind of hindsight. H But I

2415
02:23:53,360 --> 02:23:56,240
Speaker 1: guess today let's let's just start on what's kind of

2416
02:23:56,320 --> 02:23:59,800
Speaker 1: happened so far chronologically, I guess starting on Saturday. We

2417
02:24:00,280 --> 02:24:04,280
Speaker 1: I met you Saturday for a rally at Gresham Park.

2418
02:24:04,440 --> 02:24:07,119
Speaker 1: I think it's where we first met up this week. Yes,

2419
02:24:07,320 --> 02:24:11,039
Speaker 1: we met at the rally at Gresham Park, which had

2420
02:24:11,080 --> 02:24:14,200
Speaker 1: about I would say an hour's worth of speeches before

2421
02:24:14,600 --> 02:24:18,080
Speaker 1: they kicked off a march down the bike path from

2422
02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:22,400
Speaker 1: Gresham Park to what the activists called Welanni People's Park,

2423
02:24:23,280 --> 02:24:27,480
Speaker 1: which is the side of the protest beforehand. So the

2424
02:24:27,600 --> 02:24:32,240
Speaker 1: forest around it had been unoccupied since the raid in

2425
02:24:32,840 --> 02:24:36,560
Speaker 1: January that saw the killing of Torture Guita. So this

2426
02:24:36,760 --> 02:24:42,400
Speaker 1: was the first sort of permanent return to the forest.

2427
02:24:42,760 --> 02:24:47,240
Speaker 1: So we took a I don't know forty minute march

2428
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:51,760
Speaker 1: down the path and then landed in Weelani People's Park

2429
02:24:51,879 --> 02:24:55,600
Speaker 1: that had one more little round of chants with a

2430
02:24:55,720 --> 02:24:59,520
Speaker 1: promise to defend the forest, and then they broke off

2431
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:04,160
Speaker 1: and everything was a It was a nice, really relaxing day. Yeah,

2432
02:25:04,240 --> 02:25:06,200
Speaker 1: it was. It was a pretty positive start to the

2433
02:25:06,240 --> 02:25:11,920
Speaker 1: week of action. People essentially retook Kulani People's Park and

2434
02:25:12,200 --> 02:25:16,440
Speaker 1: started to go into the forest once again. Camp got

2435
02:25:16,520 --> 02:25:19,840
Speaker 1: set up in the forest. Um. Lots of people from

2436
02:25:19,920 --> 02:25:23,200
Speaker 1: both in town and folks from out of town started

2437
02:25:23,360 --> 02:25:26,720
Speaker 1: started to camp in the woods again. Um. And then

2438
02:25:26,800 --> 02:25:30,680
Speaker 1: in the hours after this small march, people started to

2439
02:25:30,920 --> 02:25:34,760
Speaker 1: prepare for the music festival, which was planned like a

2440
02:25:35,080 --> 02:25:37,600
Speaker 1: like a few hundred feet away from a Bulhani People's Park,

2441
02:25:37,640 --> 02:25:41,080
Speaker 1: I guess inside inside like a more like open field area,

2442
02:25:41,600 --> 02:25:44,400
Speaker 1: and music festival went off without a hitch. The first

2443
02:25:44,480 --> 02:25:47,840
Speaker 1: day it was pretty pretty rad. Yeah. I think there

2444
02:25:47,959 --> 02:25:50,560
Speaker 1: was about five hundred people for five hundred people that

2445
02:25:50,680 --> 02:25:54,400
Speaker 1: first night of the music festival. Yeah, and the vibes

2446
02:25:54,440 --> 02:25:56,840
Speaker 1: were great. Everyone was having a fun time. I think

2447
02:25:56,840 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 1: it went on until about one am, and I don't

2448
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:04,760
Speaker 1: think the first day could have gone better. I think

2449
02:26:04,800 --> 02:26:08,280
Speaker 1: I went on till about four am. Okay, well I

2450
02:26:08,360 --> 02:26:10,360
Speaker 1: went to bed at one am. I did not go

2451
02:26:10,480 --> 02:26:12,960
Speaker 1: to bed at one am. I was at the music

2452
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:17,640
Speaker 1: festival quite quite a bit longer. I'm quite a bit older,

2453
02:26:17,680 --> 02:26:19,080
Speaker 1: and I think that was the reason I had to

2454
02:26:19,200 --> 02:26:25,000
Speaker 1: leave so yearson doesn't understand things like needing sleep yet

2455
02:26:25,760 --> 02:26:27,840
Speaker 1: for another year or two before they hit that sweet

2456
02:26:27,879 --> 02:26:33,080
Speaker 1: sweet wall. So so true. Then then I'll have to

2457
02:26:33,160 --> 02:26:38,440
Speaker 1: find another teenager to go to journalism every like four

2458
02:26:38,560 --> 02:26:40,680
Speaker 1: or five years. You justn't find a new one. Yeah,

2459
02:26:40,840 --> 02:26:47,160
Speaker 1: just just keep re upping like Leo DiCaprio. Perfect. So

2460
02:26:49,280 --> 02:26:52,240
Speaker 1: So the first the first day was was pretty good.

2461
02:26:52,280 --> 02:26:55,160
Speaker 1: There was no no substantial police response that I saw.

2462
02:26:55,720 --> 02:26:58,640
Speaker 1: Police kind of left people alone in the forest. The

2463
02:26:58,760 --> 02:27:03,080
Speaker 1: march from Gresham Park was fine, um, and people got

2464
02:27:03,160 --> 02:27:05,760
Speaker 1: to spend a night in the woods again, which you

2465
02:27:05,800 --> 02:27:07,960
Speaker 1: know had had not had that many people in the

2466
02:27:08,040 --> 02:27:11,560
Speaker 1: woods in like months. Um, I mean this is this

2467
02:27:11,840 --> 02:27:15,400
Speaker 1: is it should be said, like camping in a music festival,

2468
02:27:15,520 --> 02:27:19,199
Speaker 1: but it's like relatively high risk because people have gotten

2469
02:27:19,560 --> 02:27:22,840
Speaker 1: significant charges just for camping in the woods in the past. Yes,

2470
02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:26,160
Speaker 1: and the very recent past part part some some of

2471
02:27:26,200 --> 02:27:29,840
Speaker 1: the warrants that that have been issued that justify the

2472
02:27:30,720 --> 02:27:34,800
Speaker 1: charges like domestic terrorism have included things such as sleeping

2473
02:27:34,959 --> 02:27:37,920
Speaker 1: in a hammock with someone else in the forest, and

2474
02:27:38,080 --> 02:27:42,040
Speaker 1: that's the reason why they're getting charged as a domestic terrorist. So, yeah,

2475
02:27:42,160 --> 02:27:44,480
Speaker 1: it is a music festival, people are camping. It's kind

2476
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:48,560
Speaker 1: of chill, but also there's absolutely this kind of this

2477
02:27:48,760 --> 02:27:52,480
Speaker 1: just like this like a ever present kind of fear

2478
02:27:53,040 --> 02:27:57,440
Speaker 1: that despite what is being done being pretty pretty kind

2479
02:27:57,480 --> 02:28:00,120
Speaker 1: of like normal and not not not not in of

2480
02:28:00,200 --> 02:28:03,840
Speaker 1: itself militant radical, still the consequences from the state are

2481
02:28:03,879 --> 02:28:07,200
Speaker 1: kind of always always looming, which kind of leads us

2482
02:28:07,240 --> 02:28:13,480
Speaker 1: to Sunday, Yeah, which picks up exactly where we left on. Yeah.

2483
02:28:13,520 --> 02:28:17,240
Speaker 1: So I got there around noon on Sunday, I think,

2484
02:28:17,480 --> 02:28:21,040
Speaker 1: and the first thing we see is a bouncy castle, large,

2485
02:28:21,320 --> 02:28:24,000
Speaker 1: large bouncy castle in front of the music festival. It

2486
02:28:24,080 --> 02:28:27,920
Speaker 1: has a big stop Coop City banner, um, massive multi

2487
02:28:28,000 --> 02:28:32,800
Speaker 1: colored bouncy castle. People are having a pretty pretty good time. Yeah.

2488
02:28:32,840 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 1: As soon as they finished setting up the bouncy castle,

2489
02:28:34,920 --> 02:28:39,600
Speaker 1: it was it was filled and everyone. I think there

2490
02:28:39,600 --> 02:28:42,360
Speaker 1: were about seventy five one hundred people just set up

2491
02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:46,800
Speaker 1: on blankets around the stage. Initially, I think in the

2492
02:28:46,879 --> 02:28:49,119
Speaker 1: next few hours that definitely grew to be there being

2493
02:28:49,400 --> 02:28:52,360
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundred, hundreds of people returning to the music

2494
02:28:52,400 --> 02:28:55,160
Speaker 1: festival for the second day. Um, I mean, I think

2495
02:28:55,400 --> 02:29:00,400
Speaker 1: the march on Saturday was anywhere between like I saw

2496
02:29:00,520 --> 02:29:03,720
Speaker 1: estimates of anywhere between five hundred two thousand people. Music

2497
02:29:03,760 --> 02:29:06,680
Speaker 1: festival seems to be like over five hundred people. And

2498
02:29:06,840 --> 02:29:08,640
Speaker 1: then on the second day at the music festival, it

2499
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:11,199
Speaker 1: slowly grew in size to again being hundreds and hundreds

2500
02:29:11,200 --> 02:29:14,400
Speaker 1: of people and it's Yeah's it started off just kind

2501
02:29:14,400 --> 02:29:18,360
Speaker 1: of continuing on with the music, continuing on with the people,

2502
02:29:18,760 --> 02:29:22,240
Speaker 1: people having having nice times in the woods. I walked

2503
02:29:22,280 --> 02:29:26,600
Speaker 1: around the campsites, got had conversations with people talking about

2504
02:29:27,200 --> 02:29:31,600
Speaker 1: all sorts of anarchy related things, and then they're slowly

2505
02:29:31,640 --> 02:29:33,960
Speaker 1: throughout the day. I think that this was posted on

2506
02:29:34,040 --> 02:29:36,800
Speaker 1: social media as well. There was a plan for a

2507
02:29:37,120 --> 02:29:41,280
Speaker 1: rally at five pm to meet on part of part

2508
02:29:41,320 --> 02:29:44,000
Speaker 1: of the field that the music festival was also happening on.

2509
02:29:44,920 --> 02:29:48,080
Speaker 1: By the time that happened, people people met up. The

2510
02:29:48,200 --> 02:29:52,480
Speaker 1: group that that kind of converged was in a mix

2511
02:29:52,600 --> 02:29:56,280
Speaker 1: of black block camo blocks, so like people like covered

2512
02:29:56,520 --> 02:30:01,480
Speaker 1: head to toe and various various camo print And they

2513
02:30:01,600 --> 02:30:04,320
Speaker 1: set off from from the RC Field where the music

2514
02:30:04,360 --> 02:30:07,080
Speaker 1: festival was at. So they left they what they went

2515
02:30:07,160 --> 02:30:10,720
Speaker 1: down Bouldercrest Road to the section of the woods called

2516
02:30:10,760 --> 02:30:14,120
Speaker 1: the power Line Cut. So to understand what is going

2517
02:30:14,200 --> 02:30:16,760
Speaker 1: on here, you kind of have to understand some of

2518
02:30:16,760 --> 02:30:20,440
Speaker 1: the geography of the Wilani Forest. So we have like

2519
02:30:20,600 --> 02:30:24,119
Speaker 1: the the Wilani People's Park parking lot and that immediate

2520
02:30:24,240 --> 02:30:26,200
Speaker 1: kind of kind of camp site. This is this is

2521
02:30:26,280 --> 02:30:30,120
Speaker 1: like the the easternmost part, and then there's the RC

2522
02:30:30,280 --> 02:30:32,520
Speaker 1: Field which is just like right right next to that

2523
02:30:32,760 --> 02:30:35,560
Speaker 1: to the west, and then even west of that is

2524
02:30:36,120 --> 02:30:39,720
Speaker 1: Entrenchment Creek, and Entrenchment Creek kind of divides up this

2525
02:30:40,120 --> 02:30:43,480
Speaker 1: this uh, this dissection of the forest and then everything

2526
02:30:43,600 --> 02:30:48,400
Speaker 1: everything west of Entrenchment Creek is generally referred to as

2527
02:30:48,520 --> 02:30:52,080
Speaker 1: like the as the old Atlanta prison Farm area and

2528
02:30:52,440 --> 02:30:55,480
Speaker 1: the power line cut is is pretty close to to

2529
02:30:56,000 --> 02:30:58,880
Speaker 1: to the creek and to that that is kind of

2530
02:30:58,920 --> 02:31:03,040
Speaker 1: where this this prison farm section is, and this is

2531
02:31:03,120 --> 02:31:04,560
Speaker 1: this is an area of the woods that cops have

2532
02:31:04,680 --> 02:31:09,360
Speaker 1: been more rigorous about policing, more rigorous about surveilling, more

2533
02:31:09,440 --> 02:31:13,120
Speaker 1: rigorous about having kind of constant surveillance and people on

2534
02:31:13,160 --> 02:31:15,280
Speaker 1: the ground. It's it's estimated that they're spending over forty

2535
02:31:15,320 --> 02:31:17,840
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a day running security on this part on

2536
02:31:18,000 --> 02:31:23,400
Speaker 1: on this part of the woods. So yeah, yeah, so

2537
02:31:23,680 --> 02:31:26,160
Speaker 1: see people for that amount of money, they could hire

2538
02:31:26,680 --> 02:31:30,280
Speaker 1: like more people than are on the police force if

2539
02:31:30,320 --> 02:31:34,760
Speaker 1: they just used fiber. That's really that's really the tactic

2540
02:31:34,800 --> 02:31:37,680
Speaker 1: they ought to be embracing. And I think if they

2541
02:31:37,720 --> 02:31:40,280
Speaker 1: had used fiber, they might have had enough people to

2542
02:31:40,680 --> 02:31:44,560
Speaker 1: counter the protesters, but to catch the baby overbloated police salaries,

2543
02:31:44,640 --> 02:31:47,320
Speaker 1: they only had like twenty people. Yeah, they did not

2544
02:31:47,400 --> 02:31:50,840
Speaker 1: have any. So this group set down Bouldercrest, They they

2545
02:31:50,920 --> 02:31:54,000
Speaker 1: marched up the power line cut. They laid out like

2546
02:31:54,160 --> 02:31:58,440
Speaker 1: tire tire barricades in the street um and then upon

2547
02:31:58,600 --> 02:32:03,720
Speaker 1: them marching marching on the power line cut. Uh after

2548
02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:07,920
Speaker 1: after they arrived near the near near the police surveillance

2549
02:32:08,040 --> 02:32:10,080
Speaker 1: set up that we that we that we just mentioned

2550
02:32:10,600 --> 02:32:14,440
Speaker 1: some of some of the equipment somehow burst into flames. Um.

2551
02:32:14,840 --> 02:32:18,160
Speaker 1: People have blamed like shoddy construction. People have said that,

2552
02:32:18,400 --> 02:32:22,879
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes equipment just does that. Uh but yes,

2553
02:32:23,000 --> 02:32:25,800
Speaker 1: no so people people set set a whole bunch of

2554
02:32:26,160 --> 02:32:29,440
Speaker 1: police infrastructure on fire, set some construction equipment on fire

2555
02:32:29,560 --> 02:32:33,160
Speaker 1: that's being used to destroy sections of the forest where

2556
02:32:33,160 --> 02:32:35,960
Speaker 1: they wanted to build a cop city. Um. Police were

2557
02:32:36,000 --> 02:32:39,320
Speaker 1: repelled with stuff like rocks and fireworks. The cops that

2558
02:32:39,360 --> 02:32:42,959
Speaker 1: were stationed there very quickly retreated. I think, Uh, lots

2559
02:32:43,080 --> 02:32:44,720
Speaker 1: lots of stuff was set on fire. There was the

2560
02:32:45,560 --> 02:32:48,240
Speaker 1: surveillance tower was set on fire. A bulldozer was set

2561
02:32:48,320 --> 02:32:51,320
Speaker 1: on fire. Well, I mean it's it's winter. People need

2562
02:32:51,440 --> 02:32:55,440
Speaker 1: fires to camp come from I understand. Have a UTV

2563
02:32:55,680 --> 02:32:57,360
Speaker 1: was some kind of like like a like big like

2564
02:32:57,879 --> 02:33:02,000
Speaker 1: big like trailer like storage unit thing was set on fire. Yes,

2565
02:33:02,080 --> 02:33:04,160
Speaker 1: and the cops were very worried about that. They didn't

2566
02:33:04,200 --> 02:33:07,680
Speaker 1: know if there was flammable material inside that you you

2567
02:33:07,720 --> 02:33:11,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't store flammable materials and an easily accessible area. Oh,

2568
02:33:11,879 --> 02:33:14,120
Speaker 1: we shut down an entire interstate because we did that

2569
02:33:14,440 --> 02:33:18,440
Speaker 1: a few years ago. So we would in Atlanta, Atlanta,

2570
02:33:18,520 --> 02:33:23,119
Speaker 1: would all of Atlanta collectively, um so so so this happened.

2571
02:33:23,680 --> 02:33:28,360
Speaker 1: A thermal chopper from a thermal police helicopter was was

2572
02:33:28,440 --> 02:33:34,359
Speaker 1: watching all of this. Um. Honestly, the footage is pretty interesting.

2573
02:33:34,920 --> 02:33:37,960
Speaker 1: It is it is worth it is worth discussing how

2574
02:33:38,440 --> 02:33:41,920
Speaker 1: this type of how how this type of surveillance works. Um.

2575
02:33:42,120 --> 02:33:45,000
Speaker 1: Almost the same thermal cameras that are on the Bay

2576
02:33:45,080 --> 02:33:48,760
Speaker 1: ractire drones that Turkey makes. By the way, it's it's

2577
02:33:48,800 --> 02:33:53,160
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty. It's pretty boomerang. Yeah, oh absolutely no,

2578
02:33:53,280 --> 02:33:56,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's pretty. It's pretty frightening with their

2579
02:33:56,320 --> 02:33:59,840
Speaker 1: ability to track into into track individual people. UM. I

2580
02:34:00,040 --> 02:34:02,680
Speaker 1: also think it's worth because there's video of the cops

2581
02:34:02,760 --> 02:34:06,040
Speaker 1: being pelted with stuff, including fireworks. I think it's worth

2582
02:34:06,120 --> 02:34:09,320
Speaker 1: noting that, like, while it is unpleasant to be pelted

2583
02:34:09,400 --> 02:34:11,200
Speaker 1: with the kind of stuff the cops were pelted with,

2584
02:34:11,680 --> 02:34:14,600
Speaker 1: you and I have both been pelted with numerous fireworks

2585
02:34:14,640 --> 02:34:17,119
Speaker 1: of similar size and it is not a serious threat

2586
02:34:17,160 --> 02:34:20,880
Speaker 1: to life and limb. No, no, there, we survived, but

2587
02:34:21,320 --> 02:34:25,039
Speaker 1: it's modestly unpleasant, but the cops that were there were

2588
02:34:25,080 --> 02:34:26,880
Speaker 1: not very happy about it. They put out calls for

2589
02:34:27,040 --> 02:34:30,840
Speaker 1: officer in need of support and for all available units

2590
02:34:30,879 --> 02:34:34,359
Speaker 1: in the greater Atlanta area to converge on the forest.

2591
02:34:35,360 --> 02:34:39,040
Speaker 1: People who were who who marched to this to the

2592
02:34:39,120 --> 02:34:42,800
Speaker 1: section of the power line cut started to disperse throughout

2593
02:34:42,920 --> 02:34:46,320
Speaker 1: the woods, and I was backed by the road watching

2594
02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:49,400
Speaker 1: this from hundreds and hundreds of feet away because I

2595
02:34:49,840 --> 02:34:51,880
Speaker 1: did not need to go up there. That would not

2596
02:34:51,959 --> 02:34:56,320
Speaker 1: have been helpful in any way. But as this was happening,

2597
02:34:56,720 --> 02:34:59,280
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of police cars zoomed by, so I

2598
02:34:59,400 --> 02:35:02,160
Speaker 1: started fall those cars. I went back to the music festival.

2599
02:35:02,720 --> 02:35:07,160
Speaker 1: Um I met up with with some with some other

2600
02:35:07,600 --> 02:35:10,520
Speaker 1: other media people that I was that I was communicating with,

2601
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:13,840
Speaker 1: and then I got a text message saying that a

2602
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:16,640
Speaker 1: cop showed up in the parking lot of the Wallani

2603
02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:19,240
Speaker 1: People's Park with an air fifteen. I start making my

2604
02:35:19,320 --> 02:35:22,280
Speaker 1: way over, and then as as I'm running across the

2605
02:35:22,440 --> 02:35:26,160
Speaker 1: music festival, I see a whole bunch of police at

2606
02:35:26,200 --> 02:35:28,720
Speaker 1: the parking lot for the music festival itself at the

2607
02:35:29,080 --> 02:35:32,000
Speaker 1: at the RC Field, So I don't I don't make

2608
02:35:32,080 --> 02:35:34,039
Speaker 1: my way over to the Wallannie People's park parking lot

2609
02:35:34,240 --> 02:35:36,200
Speaker 1: where there's the air fifteen, because instead I see way

2610
02:35:36,320 --> 02:35:39,720
Speaker 1: way more police closer closer to where I am, so

2611
02:35:40,240 --> 02:35:45,640
Speaker 1: I staged there. Minutes later police start running into into

2612
02:35:45,680 --> 02:35:49,720
Speaker 1: the music festival. They start tackling seemingly anyone who's like

2613
02:35:49,800 --> 02:35:52,200
Speaker 1: by themselves and that they could like get their hands on.

2614
02:35:52,360 --> 02:35:56,520
Speaker 1: It didn't it didn't seem incredibly targeted. Um, it's this

2615
02:35:56,720 --> 02:35:58,720
Speaker 1: is something that will kind of ill Pope. I'll probably

2616
02:35:58,840 --> 02:36:02,040
Speaker 1: like discuss in more detail once we have slightly more hindsight.

2617
02:36:02,440 --> 02:36:06,520
Speaker 1: But a lot of the arrests did not seem specifically targeted.

2618
02:36:07,200 --> 02:36:09,880
Speaker 1: In the bail hearings from just yesterday as a time

2619
02:36:09,920 --> 02:36:12,360
Speaker 1: of recording, they said they were going after people who

2620
02:36:12,400 --> 02:36:17,040
Speaker 1: had mud on their clothing and like it it rains

2621
02:36:17,160 --> 02:36:22,199
Speaker 1: a day before the music festival. Incredible detective work. Only

2622
02:36:22,480 --> 02:36:25,480
Speaker 1: only a true terrorist would have mud. I think a

2623
02:36:25,520 --> 02:36:27,600
Speaker 1: month and a half ago Ryan Millsap tore up the

2624
02:36:27,640 --> 02:36:30,320
Speaker 1: parking lot, so it rained the day before, and anyone

2625
02:36:30,360 --> 02:36:32,800
Speaker 1: who would walk through that parking lot or the trail

2626
02:36:32,879 --> 02:36:35,640
Speaker 1: system had to walk through mud. You're walking through what also?

2627
02:36:36,000 --> 02:36:38,200
Speaker 1: People are just sitting on the dirt at the music

2628
02:36:38,320 --> 02:36:42,920
Speaker 1: festival like, so yes, I mean this might also include

2629
02:36:43,160 --> 02:36:45,800
Speaker 1: like useful advice for people in the future, because if

2630
02:36:45,840 --> 02:36:48,400
Speaker 1: the movie Predator was telling me the truth and it's

2631
02:36:48,440 --> 02:36:51,520
Speaker 1: never lied to me yet, coding yourself entirely in mud

2632
02:36:51,840 --> 02:36:55,440
Speaker 1: makes thermal vision no longer function uh huh uh huh. Yeah,

2633
02:36:57,640 --> 02:37:00,200
Speaker 1: so please please start to tack with people. It was

2634
02:37:00,600 --> 02:37:02,400
Speaker 1: definitely they were going after people who were like by

2635
02:37:02,480 --> 02:37:09,040
Speaker 1: themselves and yeah, people with mud. The police alleged in

2636
02:37:09,120 --> 02:37:11,640
Speaker 1: their in their warrants that were read out at the

2637
02:37:11,640 --> 02:37:14,200
Speaker 1: bail hearing that they were going after people who had

2638
02:37:14,320 --> 02:37:17,040
Speaker 1: metal shields, and they said that almost everyone they arrested

2639
02:37:17,120 --> 02:37:19,800
Speaker 1: was arrested carrying a metal shield. Now here's a few

2640
02:37:19,879 --> 02:37:22,640
Speaker 1: funny notes about that. There was not a single metal

2641
02:37:22,760 --> 02:37:28,120
Speaker 1: shield present at all. There were a few small plastic shields,

2642
02:37:28,400 --> 02:37:32,000
Speaker 1: not a single metal one. And in and looking through

2643
02:37:32,080 --> 02:37:34,560
Speaker 1: all of the footage of arrests, the footage that I

2644
02:37:34,680 --> 02:37:37,400
Speaker 1: have that's been sent to NLG, footage to other people

2645
02:37:37,440 --> 02:37:41,520
Speaker 1: have had no one was arrested carrying a shield, let

2646
02:37:41,600 --> 02:37:45,320
Speaker 1: alone a metal one. So a whole bunch of the

2647
02:37:45,680 --> 02:37:50,560
Speaker 1: reasoning for these arrests is incredibly suspect. Police so rated

2648
02:37:50,640 --> 02:37:53,680
Speaker 1: once tackled, arrested, like five people carried them out. They

2649
02:37:53,800 --> 02:37:56,560
Speaker 1: rated again, and this is where they started launching tear

2650
02:37:56,640 --> 02:38:01,440
Speaker 1: gas into the forest. I got gassed decently bad. It

2651
02:38:01,600 --> 02:38:03,120
Speaker 1: was not It was not very fun. The first time

2652
02:38:03,120 --> 02:38:07,480
Speaker 1: I've gotten tear gased in years, old, old old memories.

2653
02:38:07,760 --> 02:38:11,119
Speaker 1: Um and during this time kiss from a dear friend.

2654
02:38:11,480 --> 02:38:15,240
Speaker 1: So that was exactly what I was thinking, and I

2655
02:38:15,400 --> 02:38:18,720
Speaker 1: did not. I brought gas masks to Atlanta, but I

2656
02:38:18,840 --> 02:38:22,640
Speaker 1: didn't bring them on the Sunday because because usually you

2657
02:38:22,680 --> 02:38:26,080
Speaker 1: don't bring gas masks to a music festival. Yeah, I mean,

2658
02:38:26,160 --> 02:38:28,400
Speaker 1: the thing about gas, the thing about tear gas and

2659
02:38:28,840 --> 02:38:32,080
Speaker 1: gas masks is that, like when you're used to getting

2660
02:38:32,080 --> 02:38:35,000
Speaker 1: tear gassed, it's really easy to have them handy and

2661
02:38:35,160 --> 02:38:37,600
Speaker 1: get them on. When like you're not used to being

2662
02:38:37,680 --> 02:38:40,400
Speaker 1: tear gas, you're probably not going to bring it with you. Yeah.

2663
02:38:40,680 --> 02:38:44,200
Speaker 1: So people got people. Some people in the forest got

2664
02:38:44,240 --> 02:38:46,680
Speaker 1: gassed pretty bad. I mean. The whole point was to

2665
02:38:46,720 --> 02:38:48,880
Speaker 1: sew confusion, make it so that people could not hide

2666
02:38:48,920 --> 02:38:50,720
Speaker 1: out in the woods. It was it. It's to make

2667
02:38:50,800 --> 02:38:53,760
Speaker 1: people scatter, runaway so that they can be tackled and arrested.

2668
02:38:54,240 --> 02:38:57,280
Speaker 1: M One person that was a National Lawyer's Guild, a

2669
02:38:57,360 --> 02:39:00,720
Speaker 1: legal observer was arrested. Um, they're also at the Southern

2670
02:39:00,800 --> 02:39:05,000
Speaker 1: Poverty Law Center. This whole boy, this person was the

2671
02:39:05,160 --> 02:39:08,039
Speaker 1: only person arrested that I'm aware of that was released

2672
02:39:08,200 --> 02:39:13,359
Speaker 1: on bail. Everybody else, everyone else is being held indefinitely.

2673
02:39:13,800 --> 02:39:16,720
Speaker 1: That actually includes there was a second legal observer who

2674
02:39:16,800 --> 02:39:19,959
Speaker 1: was not wearing the hat. So during the bail hearings

2675
02:39:20,040 --> 02:39:22,920
Speaker 1: yesterday there Laura said that they were a legal observer,

2676
02:39:23,160 --> 02:39:25,800
Speaker 1: but because they weren't wearing the hat and because they

2677
02:39:25,800 --> 02:39:28,360
Speaker 1: were not local, they were not given bail. It was

2678
02:39:28,440 --> 02:39:30,600
Speaker 1: reported there was like around like thirty five arrests the

2679
02:39:30,760 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 1: night of yes Initially, APD released a press release that

2680
02:39:34,760 --> 02:39:37,840
Speaker 1: said there were thirty five detainees, which at the time

2681
02:39:37,879 --> 02:39:41,160
Speaker 1: they released it was a very interesting term because we

2682
02:39:41,320 --> 02:39:44,119
Speaker 1: thought thirty five people had just been arrested and were

2683
02:39:44,200 --> 02:39:49,480
Speaker 1: on their way to jail. Yeah, but just about forty

2684
02:39:49,520 --> 02:39:52,640
Speaker 1: five minutes after that, twelve of those thirty five were released.

2685
02:39:53,440 --> 02:39:58,040
Speaker 1: So this was very curious. There is a lot of

2686
02:39:58,120 --> 02:40:02,600
Speaker 1: theories going on for what has happened. I'm I'm just

2687
02:40:02,760 --> 02:40:05,440
Speaker 1: going to relay what I heard when I was listening

2688
02:40:05,480 --> 02:40:08,800
Speaker 1: to the bail hearings yesterday. So a defense lawyer for

2689
02:40:08,959 --> 02:40:11,560
Speaker 1: some of the people arrested said yesterday during the bail

2690
02:40:11,680 --> 02:40:16,240
Speaker 1: hearing that, to his understanding, the twelve people that were

2691
02:40:16,360 --> 02:40:20,680
Speaker 1: detained but not arrested were people from Atlanta, and the

2692
02:40:20,879 --> 02:40:23,560
Speaker 1: twenty three people who got arrested and charged or were

2693
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:28,720
Speaker 1: not from Atlanta. And part of so what police could

2694
02:40:28,760 --> 02:40:32,560
Speaker 1: be doing here is basically, if you're from Atlanta, will

2695
02:40:32,800 --> 02:40:35,080
Speaker 1: we will id you, but we're not going to actually

2696
02:40:35,160 --> 02:40:37,440
Speaker 1: arrest and charge you, but we will arrest and charge

2697
02:40:37,480 --> 02:40:39,240
Speaker 1: you if you're from out of state, so they can

2698
02:40:39,320 --> 02:40:42,800
Speaker 1: continue this outside agitator narrative, so they can say every

2699
02:40:42,879 --> 02:40:46,880
Speaker 1: single person arrested after this protest was from out of state.

2700
02:40:48,640 --> 02:40:50,680
Speaker 1: The cops in the media have done a lot of

2701
02:40:50,840 --> 02:40:55,560
Speaker 1: weird collusion regarding the events of Sunday night. They've conflated

2702
02:40:55,720 --> 02:40:58,680
Speaker 1: the location of the arrests a lot. Police want to

2703
02:40:58,800 --> 02:41:02,080
Speaker 1: make this seem like they arrested people at a crime scene,

2704
02:41:02,160 --> 02:41:05,520
Speaker 1: that like they arrested people as they were like torching

2705
02:41:05,600 --> 02:41:08,760
Speaker 1: construction equipment, which just is. It's true. They arrested people

2706
02:41:09,000 --> 02:41:12,240
Speaker 1: almost seemingly at random at a music festival that was

2707
02:41:12,320 --> 02:41:15,240
Speaker 1: like hundreds and hundreds of feet away like it was.

2708
02:41:15,280 --> 02:41:17,160
Speaker 1: It is. It is not an it is not an

2709
02:41:17,200 --> 02:41:21,120
Speaker 1: easy walk from from the power line cut to the

2710
02:41:21,200 --> 02:41:23,040
Speaker 1: music festival, because not only do you have to go

2711
02:41:23,160 --> 02:41:27,040
Speaker 1: through some like pretty pretty harsh brush some woods, um

2712
02:41:27,120 --> 02:41:31,000
Speaker 1: and like jump over a pretty large creek of the alternatively,

2713
02:41:31,080 --> 02:41:33,440
Speaker 1: you have to like walk down a road, which nobody did.

2714
02:41:34,000 --> 02:41:36,520
Speaker 1: So the police have done a police and and and

2715
02:41:36,720 --> 02:41:40,400
Speaker 1: like local media like large like large corporate local media

2716
02:41:40,760 --> 02:41:43,600
Speaker 1: have have tried to make it seem like that this

2717
02:41:44,240 --> 02:41:46,600
Speaker 1: that this music festival thing is just like a red herring,

2718
02:41:46,959 --> 02:41:49,039
Speaker 1: that it's it's not it's not important. But a lot

2719
02:41:49,120 --> 02:41:51,000
Speaker 1: of the people that that were that were that were

2720
02:41:51,080 --> 02:41:54,320
Speaker 1: arrested seem seemed to be people that were just enjoying

2721
02:41:54,480 --> 02:41:58,400
Speaker 1: this music festival. So twenty three of them um have

2722
02:41:58,480 --> 02:42:01,879
Speaker 1: been charged with domestic terrorism. Most of those people are

2723
02:42:01,959 --> 02:42:06,480
Speaker 1: being held indefinitely for now. There the the bail hearing

2724
02:42:06,600 --> 02:42:09,039
Speaker 1: is going to get appealed to the to the Superior Court,

2725
02:42:09,440 --> 02:42:12,720
Speaker 1: where we'll see if that changes anything. The judge said

2726
02:42:12,720 --> 02:42:14,800
Speaker 1: that they were not presented with any evidence that these

2727
02:42:14,840 --> 02:42:17,680
Speaker 1: people did anything wrong, but they still decided to not

2728
02:42:17,800 --> 02:42:21,440
Speaker 1: give them bail. Um that the judge the reasoning for

2729
02:42:21,600 --> 02:42:25,240
Speaker 1: that was that the judge thought that people who did

2730
02:42:25,280 --> 02:42:27,800
Speaker 1: not have any local ties to the community could be

2731
02:42:27,879 --> 02:42:30,959
Speaker 1: a flight risk, and some people who did have local

2732
02:42:31,040 --> 02:42:34,160
Speaker 1: ties to the community, they said, still were a threat

2733
02:42:34,240 --> 02:42:37,240
Speaker 1: to the community somehow, despite many of them not having

2734
02:42:37,280 --> 02:42:41,160
Speaker 1: any prior convictions, not not having any prior arrests. It's

2735
02:42:41,320 --> 02:42:44,480
Speaker 1: it seemed it seemed pretty suspect during during during the

2736
02:42:44,560 --> 02:42:46,520
Speaker 1: during the bail hearing, but that was that was most

2737
02:42:46,560 --> 02:42:50,560
Speaker 1: of Sunday night. UM Eventually police kind of surrounded and

2738
02:42:50,680 --> 02:42:54,160
Speaker 1: kettled the group of people that that was still still

2739
02:42:54,280 --> 02:42:57,720
Speaker 1: at the music festival hours after these arrests happened. They

2740
02:42:57,800 --> 02:42:59,880
Speaker 1: gave like a five minute dispersal warning, and then they

2741
02:43:00,000 --> 02:43:02,640
Speaker 1: gave a ten minute dispersal warning. Eventually, cops let most

2742
02:43:02,720 --> 02:43:05,120
Speaker 1: of the people who like gathered who were gathered right

2743
02:43:05,160 --> 02:43:07,240
Speaker 1: in front of the stage leave. That was probably like

2744
02:43:07,360 --> 02:43:10,280
Speaker 1: fifty people at that point because people throughout the night,

2745
02:43:10,320 --> 02:43:13,840
Speaker 1: we're trying to leave um as as police were, you know,

2746
02:43:13,959 --> 02:43:16,760
Speaker 1: like rating the forest. Some people were able to some

2747
02:43:16,840 --> 02:43:19,800
Speaker 1: people were just like let go and like we're able

2748
02:43:19,840 --> 02:43:24,200
Speaker 1: to leave. Others were detained almost arbitrarily. It's it's it's

2749
02:43:24,240 --> 02:43:27,240
Speaker 1: it's hard to say so that that was the first

2750
02:43:27,360 --> 02:43:30,240
Speaker 1: two days of the Week of Action, and it felt

2751
02:43:30,280 --> 02:43:34,120
Speaker 1: like a week. What happened the next day? So yeah,

2752
02:43:34,280 --> 02:43:39,240
Speaker 1: the non violent direct actions and then the Monday the events.

2753
02:43:39,440 --> 02:43:42,040
Speaker 1: Oh no Monday, yeah, because that was only that was

2754
02:43:42,080 --> 02:43:45,480
Speaker 1: only the second Monday. Is the city council meeting that

2755
02:43:45,560 --> 02:43:48,200
Speaker 1: we were in for eight hours? Yes? Yes, So Monday

2756
02:43:48,360 --> 02:43:51,840
Speaker 1: there was there was an interfaith coalition of clergy that

2757
02:43:52,520 --> 02:43:55,880
Speaker 1: uh that held a press conference outside of city hall.

2758
02:43:56,400 --> 02:44:00,560
Speaker 1: UM basically like endorsing the Stop Cops City movement or

2759
02:44:00,600 --> 02:44:04,720
Speaker 1: like Clark how how would you describe what happened? So

2760
02:44:04,800 --> 02:44:08,520
Speaker 1: there were a couple of elements to the clergym we'll

2761
02:44:08,560 --> 02:44:12,360
Speaker 1: just call it in action. The first thing was they

2762
02:44:13,080 --> 02:44:16,240
Speaker 1: presented a letter with over two hundred other clergy members

2763
02:44:16,400 --> 02:44:20,480
Speaker 1: who had signed that denouncing cop City, calling for an

2764
02:44:20,680 --> 02:44:24,120
Speaker 1: independent investigation into the killing of Tortuguita, and calling for

2765
02:44:24,200 --> 02:44:28,160
Speaker 1: an independent investigation into the use of domestic terrorism charges

2766
02:44:28,280 --> 02:44:33,080
Speaker 1: to chill free speech. And then during that press conference,

2767
02:44:33,400 --> 02:44:38,840
Speaker 1: uh Miko Shabon called for land back and called for

2768
02:44:39,040 --> 02:44:44,199
Speaker 1: landback of in the Wilannie Forest to the Muskogee people

2769
02:44:44,720 --> 02:44:51,440
Speaker 1: who stored in um coordination with the Legacy black residents

2770
02:44:51,480 --> 02:44:55,320
Speaker 1: of the area. Yeah, so they were both like talking

2771
02:44:55,360 --> 02:44:58,040
Speaker 1: about the need to stop cop city, but also providing

2772
02:44:58,040 --> 02:45:01,520
Speaker 1: a plan on how this land could be used. This

2773
02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:03,920
Speaker 1: land that is that is leased by the city. It

2774
02:45:04,120 --> 02:45:07,320
Speaker 1: is on decap County. After this press conference, some of

2775
02:45:07,520 --> 02:45:11,040
Speaker 1: these people from the coalition gave public comment during the

2776
02:45:11,080 --> 02:45:15,080
Speaker 1: city council. That was most of the events on Monday

2777
02:45:15,200 --> 02:45:18,440
Speaker 1: that I can recall. Oh, there was the there was

2778
02:45:18,480 --> 02:45:22,360
Speaker 1: the poem in the forest that night and that was

2779
02:45:22,560 --> 02:45:24,480
Speaker 1: that was very enjoyable. That was kind of the first

2780
02:45:24,520 --> 02:45:27,760
Speaker 1: time people like tried to go back into the forest

2781
02:45:27,920 --> 02:45:31,680
Speaker 1: since since the Sunday night raid. Um. And I think

2782
02:45:31,760 --> 02:45:34,440
Speaker 1: that started to slowly boost morale again. Yeah, and I

2783
02:45:34,520 --> 02:45:36,720
Speaker 1: think we should talk about also after the raid, there

2784
02:45:36,760 --> 02:45:39,959
Speaker 1: are a few, um, really unique things that happened. There

2785
02:45:40,000 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 1: were a lot of people who didn't have housing and

2786
02:45:42,040 --> 02:45:45,880
Speaker 1: they were housed by local activists. Um. There was the

2787
02:45:45,920 --> 02:45:49,120
Speaker 1: bus network was set up to transport people from the

2788
02:45:49,280 --> 02:45:53,200
Speaker 1: site where everyone was getting arrested to somewhere safe. They

2789
02:45:53,360 --> 02:45:57,440
Speaker 1: moved breakfast offsite to a different location. So there was

2790
02:45:57,480 --> 02:46:00,360
Speaker 1: a lot of work done in continuing the Week of

2791
02:46:00,400 --> 02:46:03,520
Speaker 1: action and providing some sort of infrastructure for all of

2792
02:46:03,520 --> 02:46:05,760
Speaker 1: these people who had come into town and didn't have

2793
02:46:05,800 --> 02:46:09,520
Speaker 1: anywhere else to go. Yeah. Once again, the resiliency on

2794
02:46:09,640 --> 02:46:13,720
Speaker 1: display was impressive, and people's ability to adapt to the

2795
02:46:14,480 --> 02:46:22,960
Speaker 1: ever evolving situation was was tested and people adapted pretty well. Tuesday,

2796
02:46:23,320 --> 02:46:27,720
Speaker 1: there was there was starting to be like typical non

2797
02:46:27,840 --> 02:46:30,880
Speaker 1: violent direct actions happening throughout to downtown. A whole bunch

2798
02:46:30,879 --> 02:46:34,240
Speaker 1: of banner drops happened around highways and interstates around Atlanta.

2799
02:46:34,840 --> 02:46:41,840
Speaker 1: People were detained for yes, US three people were briefly

2800
02:46:41,920 --> 02:46:44,920
Speaker 1: detained at the site of of of a banner drop,

2801
02:46:45,600 --> 02:46:49,080
Speaker 1: but throughout throughout the day there was people handing out

2802
02:46:49,160 --> 02:46:55,040
Speaker 1: letters to people, to folks like the CEO of Norfolk

2803
02:46:55,080 --> 02:47:00,000
Speaker 1: Southern Norfolk Southern Alan Shaw, and then similar similar type

2804
02:47:00,120 --> 02:47:02,560
Speaker 1: of like non violent direct action were happening. A small

2805
02:47:02,640 --> 02:47:06,560
Speaker 1: a small march was led from Woodruff Park to At

2806
02:47:06,720 --> 02:47:10,680
Speaker 1: and T and Georgia pacific Um. There was like maybe

2807
02:47:11,320 --> 02:47:14,120
Speaker 1: maybe fifty I think fifty is an accurate number. Fifty

2808
02:47:14,160 --> 02:47:17,520
Speaker 1: people gathered to march. Well, there were fifty marchers gathered

2809
02:47:17,800 --> 02:47:21,320
Speaker 1: and then like one hundred and twenty police officers in

2810
02:47:21,440 --> 02:47:25,320
Speaker 1: the in the in the surrounding area, massive, massive police

2811
02:47:25,360 --> 02:47:31,080
Speaker 1: presence police caused a huge, a huge disruption to downtown.

2812
02:47:31,680 --> 02:47:34,920
Speaker 1: Um that's something we've seen kind of ever since the

2813
02:47:35,040 --> 02:47:39,200
Speaker 1: Sunday raid. The police have been incredibly heavy handed in

2814
02:47:39,320 --> 02:47:42,680
Speaker 1: their response to every single thing, whether that be people

2815
02:47:42,800 --> 02:47:45,160
Speaker 1: handing out flyers or whether that be you know, uh,

2816
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, people at people at at at a music festival. Um,

2817
02:47:49,520 --> 02:47:52,039
Speaker 1: whole a whole bunch of police were mobilized to stay

2818
02:47:52,160 --> 02:47:54,800
Speaker 1: night near the forest, like a hundred again, like one

2819
02:47:54,920 --> 02:48:00,720
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty cops at least three or four different agencies, bearcats, helicopters.

2820
02:48:01,800 --> 02:48:06,040
Speaker 1: I think there's it's it's unclear what they were doing. Um,

2821
02:48:07,040 --> 02:48:09,240
Speaker 1: this is something that we might we might speculate further

2822
02:48:09,400 --> 02:48:11,600
Speaker 1: on once we have hindsight. When I when I put

2823
02:48:11,640 --> 02:48:14,800
Speaker 1: together my my kind of my kind of a more

2824
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:18,240
Speaker 1: more intense deep dive. And then uh, then today the

2825
02:48:18,720 --> 02:48:21,600
Speaker 1: thing that me and Clark just got back from. How

2826
02:48:21,640 --> 02:48:26,240
Speaker 1: do you want to explain today's today's events? So today

2827
02:48:26,840 --> 02:48:31,000
Speaker 1: was a lot of leaflet handing out and marching. It

2828
02:48:31,120 --> 02:48:34,120
Speaker 1: was a smaller group than the march yesterday. I would

2829
02:48:34,120 --> 02:48:36,320
Speaker 1: say there was like twenty twenty five people. Yeah, like

2830
02:48:36,520 --> 02:48:40,240
Speaker 1: it started off being like only only but like a dozen. Um,

2831
02:48:40,400 --> 02:48:42,000
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's slowly grew to like maybe like

2832
02:48:42,120 --> 02:48:45,480
Speaker 1: two or three dozen. But yeah, small, small, small group

2833
02:48:45,520 --> 02:48:47,280
Speaker 1: of people. Yeah, small group of people. And when they

2834
02:48:47,360 --> 02:48:50,920
Speaker 1: met at noon, they met and they broke into three

2835
02:48:50,959 --> 02:48:53,280
Speaker 1: different groups. Yeah. And so the group that we followed

2836
02:48:53,480 --> 02:48:56,720
Speaker 1: was just, uh, they walked a little northward and started

2837
02:48:56,720 --> 02:48:59,720
Speaker 1: passing out flyers at the Petrie Center Marta station. They

2838
02:48:59,760 --> 02:49:04,480
Speaker 1: would to all three entrances, and each group warranted its

2839
02:49:04,640 --> 02:49:09,680
Speaker 1: own police surveillance unit, massive police surveillance units. It was

2840
02:49:09,720 --> 02:49:14,199
Speaker 1: following everybody around. There was there was a SWAT vehicle

2841
02:49:14,560 --> 02:49:19,920
Speaker 1: parked right right outside where these people were handing out flyers. Um,

2842
02:49:20,440 --> 02:49:23,680
Speaker 1: it was. There was there was like fifty to one

2843
02:49:23,760 --> 02:49:27,160
Speaker 1: hundred cops flanking people on like from from like, from

2844
02:49:27,200 --> 02:49:30,640
Speaker 1: like different sides. Eventually all the all of the smaller

2845
02:49:30,680 --> 02:49:35,000
Speaker 1: groups that kind of branched off converged again and police

2846
02:49:35,080 --> 02:49:38,960
Speaker 1: then gave a dispersal warning to people who were on

2847
02:49:39,040 --> 02:49:41,600
Speaker 1: the sidewalk, on a sidewalk outside of a hard rock

2848
02:49:41,760 --> 02:49:46,320
Speaker 1: cafe who were handing out flyers. Okay, well they mean

2849
02:49:46,720 --> 02:49:48,840
Speaker 1: they were in that case, they may have been protecting

2850
02:49:48,920 --> 02:49:50,640
Speaker 1: people because you want to you want to get folks

2851
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:54,160
Speaker 1: as far away from the hard Rock Cafe as possible garrison.

2852
02:49:55,840 --> 02:49:59,600
Speaker 1: And that's a real dangerous I was, I was campaigning

2853
02:49:59,640 --> 02:50:02,560
Speaker 1: for all of the press gathered to meet afterwards. That's

2854
02:50:02,560 --> 02:50:09,160
Speaker 1: a hard rock cafe between the hard that one so scarce.

2855
02:50:09,200 --> 02:50:11,879
Speaker 1: And I watched you at the Rainforest Cafe. You barely

2856
02:50:11,959 --> 02:50:16,240
Speaker 1: made it through that dessert. That was different. That was different.

2857
02:50:16,640 --> 02:50:21,560
Speaker 1: I did. I did get food poisoning from that Rainforest Cafe.

2858
02:50:21,879 --> 02:50:25,400
Speaker 1: I will, I will continue to claim. And I woke

2859
02:50:25,520 --> 02:50:28,120
Speaker 1: up with a headache for an under an inexplicable reason,

2860
02:50:29,040 --> 02:50:31,160
Speaker 1: not because you were carrying around a bottle of bourbon

2861
02:50:31,240 --> 02:50:39,040
Speaker 1: throat bourbon and or a milkshake or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, So,

2862
02:50:40,520 --> 02:50:43,040
Speaker 1: so cops gave a dispersal warning to people who were

2863
02:50:43,560 --> 02:50:46,480
Speaker 1: not not in fact blocking a sidewalk. We're simply handing

2864
02:50:46,480 --> 02:50:49,960
Speaker 1: out flyers. People were still walking everywhere. Um, so they

2865
02:50:50,000 --> 02:50:51,480
Speaker 1: basically moved to a different section of the of the

2866
02:50:51,520 --> 02:50:55,600
Speaker 1: sidewalk and cops kind of left him alone. Um. Near by,

2867
02:50:55,959 --> 02:50:58,840
Speaker 1: a group of indigenous activists from the Indian Collective. I

2868
02:50:58,879 --> 02:51:01,320
Speaker 1: believe it's what it's it's actually a Muscoge Nation, the

2869
02:51:01,400 --> 02:51:07,040
Speaker 1: Muscogee Nation. Uh went went to a meeting that the

2870
02:51:07,240 --> 02:51:12,200
Speaker 1: Mayor of Atlanta, Andre Dickens, was having nearby. H Clark,

2871
02:51:12,360 --> 02:51:14,360
Speaker 1: I think you know slightly more about what happened here

2872
02:51:14,400 --> 02:51:18,280
Speaker 1: than I do. Yes, So several of the indigenous activists entered.

2873
02:51:18,640 --> 02:51:21,959
Speaker 1: So where he was having this meeting is a mall

2874
02:51:24,440 --> 02:51:28,520
Speaker 1: in true Atlanta fashion. Um. So they entered the mall

2875
02:51:28,600 --> 02:51:31,760
Speaker 1: and they they found where he was in the building,

2876
02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:38,359
Speaker 1: and uh so, Miko Colonel Chabon delivered a letter essentially

2877
02:51:38,480 --> 02:51:43,920
Speaker 1: evicting the city of Atlanta from the Wielannie Forest. Uh

2878
02:51:44,600 --> 02:51:47,840
Speaker 1: So they got in without the police noticing. Um and

2879
02:51:48,000 --> 02:51:52,960
Speaker 1: then the moment they got out, a large squad of

2880
02:51:53,040 --> 02:51:57,400
Speaker 1: police mobilized. They were they were not happy how close

2881
02:51:57,480 --> 02:52:01,120
Speaker 1: people got to the mayor. So at this point we

2882
02:52:01,200 --> 02:52:03,520
Speaker 1: don't know what the full reaction of that's going to be.

2883
02:52:03,959 --> 02:52:06,840
Speaker 1: We do know that the mayor ran away from accepting

2884
02:52:06,879 --> 02:52:09,400
Speaker 1: the letter and then one of I believe they handed

2885
02:52:09,440 --> 02:52:15,800
Speaker 1: it to one. There are a few few more beautiful

2886
02:52:15,840 --> 02:52:19,560
Speaker 1: sites than a mayor running away. Now more mayors need

2887
02:52:19,640 --> 02:52:23,640
Speaker 1: to spend time fleeing from their peoples. So I think

2888
02:52:23,720 --> 02:52:26,000
Speaker 1: this this episode comes out. I think like like late

2889
02:52:26,080 --> 02:52:29,640
Speaker 1: Thursday night, Friday morning, UM, Thursday afternoon there. So, like

2890
02:52:29,879 --> 02:52:33,400
Speaker 1: we are, we are recording this Wednesday, there's plans for Thursday,

2891
02:52:33,440 --> 02:52:35,080
Speaker 1: there's gonna be there's gonna be a large march at

2892
02:52:35,120 --> 02:52:37,720
Speaker 1: six pm. I believe, there's gonna be a youth rally

2893
02:52:37,760 --> 02:52:42,760
Speaker 1: at Saturday, and then on Sunday morning, um Manuel torn

2894
02:52:43,160 --> 02:52:47,000
Speaker 1: Tortoquita's family is holding a memorial for tort in the

2895
02:52:47,040 --> 02:52:51,920
Speaker 1: Wilani forest. Um where I've been told that they're going

2896
02:52:52,000 --> 02:52:55,280
Speaker 1: to spread towards ashes inside the woods and that is

2897
02:52:55,360 --> 02:52:59,040
Speaker 1: kind of the last thing that's going to happen. Um

2898
02:52:59,360 --> 02:53:01,640
Speaker 1: And so those are the things that have not not

2899
02:53:01,920 --> 02:53:06,360
Speaker 1: not yet took place. Um So, but we've we've explained

2900
02:53:06,400 --> 02:53:10,040
Speaker 1: in pretty in pretty spruciating detail some of some of

2901
02:53:10,120 --> 02:53:12,760
Speaker 1: what's happened so far. So yeah, that that's kind of

2902
02:53:12,840 --> 02:53:14,880
Speaker 1: the current current state of on the ground at the

2903
02:53:14,920 --> 02:53:17,640
Speaker 1: week of action. UM I guess, Robert, do you have

2904
02:53:17,640 --> 02:53:20,360
Speaker 1: any questions for Clerk as someone who's kind of been

2905
02:53:20,440 --> 02:53:25,840
Speaker 1: on the ground in Atlanta for years covering top pop city. Yeah,

2906
02:53:26,200 --> 02:53:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm curious what over the last few weeks,

2907
02:53:30,560 --> 02:53:34,840
Speaker 1: like you've you've had some direct clashes with the police

2908
02:53:34,959 --> 02:53:38,279
Speaker 1: that have ended in a variety of ways, broadly speaking,

2909
02:53:38,840 --> 02:53:41,200
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you're you're kind of leaning towards

2910
02:53:41,280 --> 02:53:43,560
Speaker 1: this doesn't work? And is there anything you're kind of

2911
02:53:43,640 --> 02:53:47,560
Speaker 1: leaning towards? This seems to work really well. So there

2912
02:53:47,640 --> 02:53:50,840
Speaker 1: is something to be said for the more aggressive actions,

2913
02:53:50,920 --> 02:53:55,119
Speaker 1: and I think they serve their purpose. And there's definitely

2914
02:53:55,160 --> 02:53:59,080
Speaker 1: something to be said for the forest occupation UM it

2915
02:53:59,320 --> 02:54:04,080
Speaker 1: continued the movement until there was a ground swell of support.

2916
02:54:05,480 --> 02:54:08,879
Speaker 1: So at this point, I think the actions have sort

2917
02:54:08,920 --> 02:54:13,240
Speaker 1: of switched gear into more non violent direct actions as

2918
02:54:13,280 --> 02:54:16,000
Speaker 1: we're seeing this week, and I think that those actions

2919
02:54:16,040 --> 02:54:20,720
Speaker 1: will will continue. I'm sure the anarchistic contingent will continue

2920
02:54:20,760 --> 02:54:26,400
Speaker 1: to do some other more aggressive, shall we say, direct actions? Yeah,

2921
02:54:26,480 --> 02:54:29,200
Speaker 1: and and and all of these work. We have a

2922
02:54:29,440 --> 02:54:38,280
Speaker 1: large swath of different avenues of engagement that the movement

2923
02:54:38,400 --> 02:54:41,000
Speaker 1: is has developed, and each of them has their place,

2924
02:54:41,080 --> 02:54:43,520
Speaker 1: and if they're used in the proper place, they're used

2925
02:54:43,520 --> 02:54:46,640
Speaker 1: to great effect. I think one kind of change that

2926
02:54:46,800 --> 02:54:50,080
Speaker 1: has happened we've seen we've seen a bit of a

2927
02:54:50,280 --> 02:54:54,960
Speaker 1: decrease in the types of like nighttime sabotage, like the

2928
02:54:55,959 --> 02:54:59,040
Speaker 1: sort of like attack and disappear tactics that was was

2929
02:54:59,120 --> 02:55:01,879
Speaker 1: really popular in the the early days of the occupation

2930
02:55:02,760 --> 02:55:05,600
Speaker 1: of like of of like the force occupation of people

2931
02:55:05,640 --> 02:55:09,640
Speaker 1: living and living and camping out in the woods. Um.

2932
02:55:10,200 --> 02:55:12,880
Speaker 1: And you know the because like the last two much

2933
02:55:12,959 --> 02:55:15,880
Speaker 1: more like militant actions were done during the daytime, during

2934
02:55:15,959 --> 02:55:18,480
Speaker 1: like large rallies. There was there was the protest on

2935
02:55:18,560 --> 02:55:22,040
Speaker 1: Saturday after Tortuguita was killed where a cop car was torched.

2936
02:55:22,400 --> 02:55:24,800
Speaker 1: Then there was this, then there was this protest on

2937
02:55:25,200 --> 02:55:29,800
Speaker 1: on Sunday night UM that people that people marched, people

2938
02:55:29,840 --> 02:55:32,320
Speaker 1: marched to the to the power line cut and then

2939
02:55:32,360 --> 02:55:36,280
Speaker 1: the police started doing repression at the music festival. UM.

2940
02:55:36,840 --> 02:55:41,040
Speaker 1: But like those things were happening like during like before

2941
02:55:41,120 --> 02:55:43,560
Speaker 1: the sun was setting. UM. So I think that that

2942
02:55:43,800 --> 02:55:46,160
Speaker 1: that's one interesting change. I feel like some people are

2943
02:55:46,200 --> 02:55:49,720
Speaker 1: definitely thinking about this, especially because there's been twenty three

2944
02:55:49,760 --> 02:55:52,800
Speaker 1: people arrested during this week of action and they're being

2945
02:55:53,000 --> 02:55:55,440
Speaker 1: held in jail uh and we have no idea when

2946
02:55:55,440 --> 02:55:57,680
Speaker 1: they're going, when they're going to be able to have

2947
02:55:57,800 --> 02:56:00,160
Speaker 1: the option of getting out. So I think this is

2948
02:56:00,200 --> 02:56:02,080
Speaker 1: something this is something that people are thinking about in

2949
02:56:02,240 --> 02:56:05,440
Speaker 1: terms of how they are how they are doing direct action,

2950
02:56:05,600 --> 02:56:10,880
Speaker 1: and how how their involvement in direct action will affect

2951
02:56:11,000 --> 02:56:13,760
Speaker 1: people who did not participate, like with people at the

2952
02:56:14,160 --> 02:56:16,840
Speaker 1: people at the music festival, who who were not who

2953
02:56:16,879 --> 02:56:20,920
Speaker 1: were not present at the power line cut direct action,

2954
02:56:21,320 --> 02:56:25,440
Speaker 1: and how some of those people are undoubtedly now facing

2955
02:56:26,200 --> 02:56:29,640
Speaker 1: like punishment from from the state. UM. So I feel

2956
02:56:29,640 --> 02:56:32,960
Speaker 1: like that there is definitely going to be some discussion

2957
02:56:33,000 --> 02:56:35,960
Speaker 1: about that. I've i've i've i've seen discussion about this

2958
02:56:36,080 --> 02:56:39,879
Speaker 1: sort in the city. Um. But I mean the Week

2959
02:56:39,920 --> 02:56:41,920
Speaker 1: of Action is still is still ongoing. It is it

2960
02:56:42,080 --> 02:56:45,080
Speaker 1: is only Wednesday. It feels like it's been a month, um,

2961
02:56:45,480 --> 02:56:48,640
Speaker 1: but it's only been like three or four days. Uh.

2962
02:56:49,520 --> 02:56:52,280
Speaker 1: But I mean it's people. People are in this for

2963
02:56:52,440 --> 02:56:54,760
Speaker 1: the long haul. Um. We're we're starting to see more

2964
02:56:54,879 --> 02:56:58,840
Speaker 1: solidarity from from groups that are less militant, like with

2965
02:56:58,920 --> 02:57:02,720
Speaker 1: the interfaith relition right, like you're not. I don't think

2966
02:57:02,760 --> 02:57:05,240
Speaker 1: any of like the priests, the priests or the clergy

2967
02:57:05,560 --> 02:57:09,560
Speaker 1: were there throwing molotov cocktails um at the at the

2968
02:57:09,640 --> 02:57:12,560
Speaker 1: surveillance tower. Yet the very next day they're standing out

2969
02:57:12,600 --> 02:57:15,880
Speaker 1: outside of city Hall and demanding the same things that

2970
02:57:15,959 --> 02:57:19,480
Speaker 1: the people throwing maltovs are are demanding. It should be

2971
02:57:19,600 --> 02:57:23,320
Speaker 1: noted that they didn't denounce no that is it is

2972
02:57:23,400 --> 02:57:28,160
Speaker 1: solidarity across the movement. Absolutely. They talked about how them

2973
02:57:28,200 --> 02:57:32,520
Speaker 1: as clergy you know, and uh, the in the history

2974
02:57:32,600 --> 02:57:37,280
Speaker 1: of Abrahamic religions, how many how many people associated and

2975
02:57:37,400 --> 02:57:40,080
Speaker 1: are the figureheads of such religions have been killed by

2976
02:57:40,120 --> 02:57:43,160
Speaker 1: the state, and how often often these religions have been

2977
02:57:43,400 --> 02:57:47,560
Speaker 1: in opposition to the state during during their formative years. Um,

2978
02:57:48,240 --> 02:57:50,080
Speaker 1: and they don't know. I just I just can't think

2979
02:57:50,120 --> 02:57:54,280
Speaker 1: of any prominent uh Christian figures or Jewish figures who

2980
02:57:54,320 --> 02:57:56,080
Speaker 1: were who were murdered by the state. That's just not

2981
02:57:56,400 --> 02:57:59,760
Speaker 1: nothing's coming up, right none. Yeah, no, I grew up

2982
02:58:00,280 --> 02:58:05,920
Speaker 1: and I can't really remember anyone. So um, yeah, that

2983
02:58:06,120 --> 02:58:08,360
Speaker 1: is that is. That is the week of action so far.

2984
02:58:10,200 --> 02:58:12,959
Speaker 1: There will there will certainly be be be a more

2985
02:58:13,760 --> 02:58:16,720
Speaker 1: a more detailed deep dive with like analysis and like,

2986
02:58:16,879 --> 02:58:19,720
Speaker 1: you know, a narrative through line in the coming weeks

2987
02:58:19,800 --> 02:58:21,800
Speaker 1: as we're actually able to like look back on what

2988
02:58:22,000 --> 02:58:25,440
Speaker 1: has happened. Um interviews with more people who are who

2989
02:58:25,520 --> 02:58:30,640
Speaker 1: are like actually involved, interviews with like organizers, protesters, force defenders, um,

2990
02:58:32,040 --> 02:58:35,640
Speaker 1: but people. Despite the ignassive amount of repression that we've

2991
02:58:35,720 --> 02:58:40,000
Speaker 1: seen on Sunday, the increasingly like heavy handed response. Police

2992
02:58:40,040 --> 02:58:43,680
Speaker 1: have had to both direct action that includes property destruction

2993
02:58:43,760 --> 02:58:47,440
Speaker 1: and non violent direct action. Uh. Despite all that, people

2994
02:58:47,480 --> 02:58:49,400
Speaker 1: are still continuing to be in the woods. They are

2995
02:58:49,480 --> 02:58:52,400
Speaker 1: not letting it scare them away. The woods are still

2996
02:58:52,440 --> 02:58:57,440
Speaker 1: a place that the people are able to like exist in. Uh,

2997
02:58:57,760 --> 02:59:01,320
Speaker 1: They're still able to live, live together in the woods,

2998
02:59:01,480 --> 02:59:04,880
Speaker 1: stay in the woods. The cops don't like being in

2999
02:59:04,959 --> 02:59:08,680
Speaker 1: the woods. No, there's a real fear that's you're trying

3000
02:59:08,720 --> 02:59:12,199
Speaker 1: to tear them down. Yes, the cops are. The cops

3001
02:59:12,240 --> 02:59:14,440
Speaker 1: are still very much scared of the woods. Um. And

3002
02:59:14,760 --> 02:59:17,840
Speaker 1: and uh people have have have not have not let

3003
02:59:18,120 --> 02:59:21,760
Speaker 1: the violence shown by police scare them away from from

3004
02:59:21,879 --> 02:59:24,600
Speaker 1: wanting to stay in the forest. So that is that

3005
02:59:24,680 --> 02:59:27,920
Speaker 1: is something that continued every day. There's been like guided

3006
02:59:28,040 --> 02:59:31,879
Speaker 1: tours throughout the forest showing off the different different types

3007
02:59:31,920 --> 02:59:34,720
Speaker 1: of plants, the different sections of the woods, different different

3008
02:59:34,720 --> 02:59:40,200
Speaker 1: old campsites that people have slept at. Um. Yeah, it's uh,

3009
02:59:40,800 --> 02:59:42,680
Speaker 1: it's been. It's been pretty nice to see with the

3010
02:59:42,840 --> 02:59:49,320
Speaker 1: with just the incredible level of resilience. Well I know

3011
02:59:49,480 --> 02:59:52,640
Speaker 1: that that I am, and I'm sure many people are

3012
02:59:52,720 --> 02:59:58,440
Speaker 1: kind of watching this from a distance, and uh, very

3013
02:59:59,320 --> 03:00:02,160
Speaker 1: very happy to see that folks are continuing to adapt

3014
03:00:02,879 --> 03:00:06,680
Speaker 1: and endure UH and and take punches. It's unfortunate that

3015
03:00:06,720 --> 03:00:09,920
Speaker 1: the punches keep coming, but the ability of the community

3016
03:00:10,000 --> 03:00:14,120
Speaker 1: to take those hits and continue iterating and adapting UM,

3017
03:00:14,560 --> 03:00:18,959
Speaker 1: remains tremendously impressive. UM. I think kind of the note

3018
03:00:19,400 --> 03:00:21,400
Speaker 1: that makes most sense to end on as to say

3019
03:00:21,480 --> 03:00:26,960
Speaker 1: that this is still a winnable fight. Absolutely, And that

3020
03:00:27,160 --> 03:00:30,160
Speaker 1: is a sentiment that literally everyone on the ground shares.

3021
03:00:30,320 --> 03:00:34,320
Speaker 1: Like we are at a point where like people keep

3022
03:00:34,400 --> 03:00:37,640
Speaker 1: saying like at this point they have to win, like

3023
03:00:37,800 --> 03:00:41,280
Speaker 1: like there there is no other option than winning, UM,

3024
03:00:41,600 --> 03:00:44,240
Speaker 1: And people have the ability to win this. This is

3025
03:00:44,320 --> 03:00:47,520
Speaker 1: a winnable fight, UM. And that is that is something

3026
03:00:47,600 --> 03:00:50,240
Speaker 1: that people continue continue to talk about, and that that

3027
03:00:50,440 --> 03:00:52,280
Speaker 1: is why people are fighting so hard. That's why people

3028
03:00:52,320 --> 03:00:56,600
Speaker 1: are are risking getting these ridiculous charges because they know

3029
03:00:56,760 --> 03:00:58,320
Speaker 1: that this fight is both worth it and they know

3030
03:00:58,440 --> 03:01:02,000
Speaker 1: this fight is winnable. Like these are these the actions

3031
03:01:02,040 --> 03:01:04,560
Speaker 1: and the risks that people are The actions and the

3032
03:01:04,720 --> 03:01:06,800
Speaker 1: risks that people are taking are not for nothing, Like

3033
03:01:06,920 --> 03:01:10,440
Speaker 1: they know that it is impactful and there is a

3034
03:01:10,600 --> 03:01:14,480
Speaker 1: very good chance that this this will lead to victory

3035
03:01:14,640 --> 03:01:17,840
Speaker 1: and will lead to the forest being preserved, to being

3036
03:01:17,920 --> 03:01:21,800
Speaker 1: protected and being able to continue continue to grow. It

3037
03:01:21,959 --> 03:01:26,080
Speaker 1: does have a feeling of inevitability that they will win,

3038
03:01:26,280 --> 03:01:30,280
Speaker 1: that we're we will win. I don't know which appropriate

3039
03:01:31,080 --> 03:01:33,400
Speaker 1: way to say that is as a journalist, but the

3040
03:01:33,720 --> 03:01:36,280
Speaker 1: feeling is that that Cops City will not be built

3041
03:01:36,720 --> 03:01:39,080
Speaker 1: and that is something that shared, I think by all

3042
03:01:39,160 --> 03:01:43,400
Speaker 1: of the activists in this city. And I guess the

3043
03:01:43,879 --> 03:01:47,280
Speaker 1: last thing I'll say is, uh, Atlanta Solidarity Fund. You

3044
03:01:47,840 --> 03:01:50,240
Speaker 1: if you if you've been listening to any of our coverage,

3045
03:01:50,280 --> 03:01:53,160
Speaker 1: you should already know what it is. You can find

3046
03:01:53,320 --> 03:01:57,480
Speaker 1: the Solidarity Fund at atl solidarity dot org. You can

3047
03:01:57,520 --> 03:02:00,600
Speaker 1: donate there to help the forest defenders and you know,

3048
03:02:01,000 --> 03:02:04,240
Speaker 1: anyone who who was arrested in relation to this with

3049
03:02:04,959 --> 03:02:12,000
Speaker 1: legal expenses, lawyers, that sort of thing. Um yeah, well, um,

3050
03:02:12,240 --> 03:02:15,440
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for this episode. Uh. And we'll

3051
03:02:15,520 --> 03:02:18,879
Speaker 1: have more from you, Garrison, and more from Atlanta soon

3052
03:02:19,760 --> 03:02:27,640
Speaker 1: until next time, everybody, Uh, keep an eye on shit. Hey,

3053
03:02:27,760 --> 03:02:30,880
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3054
03:02:30,920 --> 03:02:33,480
Speaker 1: now until the heat Death of the Universe. It could

3055
03:02:33,520 --> 03:02:35,840
Speaker 1: happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For

3056
03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:38,680
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

3057
03:02:38,760 --> 03:02:41,600
Speaker 1: zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3058
03:02:41,640 --> 03:02:44,800
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

3059
03:02:44,840 --> 03:02:47,520
Speaker 1: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

3060
03:02:47,560 --> 03:02:50,760
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.