WEBVTT - Brian Silva 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.040 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast, 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:05.320 this one with Brian Silva. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:09.039 We did a little differently, started having a conversation and 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:13.560 it just worked, so don't have that normal intro that 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.640 we had at most of our podcasts. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:22.120 Thanks for listening, and if you haven't already, please subscribe 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.280 to us. Rate us in the iTunes app store. It 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.480 really helps us out, gets more eyeballs on the on 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.560 the podcast. And if you haven't, please subscribe to the 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.959 Friday Egg newsletter. It's sent every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.239 It's the easiest way to stay up to date with 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.440 golf and everything that's going on. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.120 So thanks again, and without further ado, here is Brian Silva. 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.000 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.120 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:53.080 And when I find my. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:58.080 Ball in a brid egg Frida Egg, Frida Egrida, Frida 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:36.360 bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to on off of the. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.840 I've been out at the Western m this week, which 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:36.440 is at Skokie Country Club. I mean, unbelievable set of greens, 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.200 and you know they have this one that has this 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.000 massive false front. They have a couple with them that. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.640 But you know this, this guy is complaining. I was 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.880 with my buddy in a practice round and this guy's complaining. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.240 He's like, I don't understand why this is all green here. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.320 It's not like they can put a pin there. And 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.080 I'm like, well, that's why your ball will roll twenty 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:01.400 yards down the hill. You know, it's makes the whole green. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.520 You know, it's hard for people to appreciate that the green, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.200 under the best circumstances is part of the hazard on 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:15.200 a hole. And it's better that you hear things like 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:20.160 that than I do, because I don't hide my visual 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:25.640 reaction when some knucklehead says something like that. You know, 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.040 all they're trying to do is make every golf course 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.280 in America like every other golf course in America and 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:40.720 kind of homogenize vanilla eyes it down to the least interesting, 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:48.720 most standard, least unexciting thing. It's unbelievable. It's such an 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.280 incredible double standard. You know, of course has a really unique, 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:57.079 beautiful clubhouse. Those people would who want to just dummy 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.760 down their golf course and make it look like every 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:04.440 other golf course would never say, you know, our clubhouse, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:10.040 it's really too unique. We really need to tear it 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:13.240 down and like put up a metal butler building. Oh 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.519 and then they'll say a metal a butler building. That's 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.359 easier to maintain because everything that gets done. I say 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:25.880 to people sadly, when we do a project, there's maybe 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:31.600 ten items of interest that we're that that everyone's talking 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.920 about keeping in mind throughout the entire project. And you know, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.760 bullet points or whatever you want to call them. One 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:41.920 is the most important. It's the one that gets talked 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.440 about the most, and ten is the least important, the 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.120 one that gets talked about with the least I swear 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:53.400 more often than not, characteristics of golf course design find 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:59.760 themselves largely lodged in number ten. It's a she's how 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.560 do we get the cart paths around? And you know, 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.800 I hit a perfect I hit a perfect shot to 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.040 this green, but because of this false front that shouldn't 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.920 even be green, I ended up twenty yards back in 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:18.640 the fair way. That's not fair. So it's fascinating, and 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.599 all it proves, Andy, don't take this personally, is guys 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.480 like you and me haven't done a good enough job educating. Yeah, 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.120 I know, I agree, you know what I mean it's 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:36.600 just and unfortunately we're swimming against the tide because more 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.359 often than not, when a new course gets well, they 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.880 don't get built anymore. But when work gets done, it 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.320 really you would think their goal was to take the 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:53.800 character out of the course, to you know, take the 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:58.000 unique features out of the course. It's unfortunate. Now, don't 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.480 get me wrong, I think this the swell work going 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:07.279 on out there, but there still was this in ertia 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.320 to make every golf course look like it was built 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:14.920 in the nineteen sixties. And that's unfortunate. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.920 Yeah, I mean, it's the it's really interesting. I mean 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.040 I watched this kid, Cameron Jamp yesterday play and he's 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.240 like one of the longest guys on you know, he'd 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.760 be the longest guy on tour. He's a college kid. 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.640 He kills it. And he played this four hundred yard hole. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.000 The pin was way up front on the right side 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.919 and he hit driver up to like thirty yards and 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.600 he was absolutely dead because you know, the way the 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.120 green was, and this is a green that would never 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:46.479 be built by. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.599 Today, right, and the way. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.719 The green was. He had a knob in front of 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.159 this front pin and a knob behind it, and he 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.200 had nothing. He couldn't do anything, and it's like, okay, 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.640 like that was a really bad play, Like you need 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.360 to have a full shot going into that green right right, 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.599 And people are you know, how do you defend distance? 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.919 How do you but like great green complexes defend well, 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.560 because then you have to play angles and you have 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.080 to have a strategy going into the hole rather than 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.320 just you know, pull out driver and bludge in the course. 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:18.800 And that's what I think those are. 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.440 Those are outlandish thoughts, Andy, that you'd actually think on 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.760 the tee where you want to be the best access 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.880 to the green, You're you're going in the wrong direction, 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:35.039 big guy. You know, it's all power golf. It's very sad. 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.480 I sense a hint of sarcasm. 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.960 Yeah, I mean I see why a lot of people 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:51.440 are like that. And uh, because if you put a 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.080 if you put a percentage on the number of courses 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.520 in the United States that don't require that thought, that 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.640 don't have of the angles, that don't have the strategy, 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:09.040 that don't have multiple roots, I'm afraid that percentage would 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:14.080 be above ninety percent. And so they're not used. They've 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.520 never seen it before, and when they see it, they 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.240 find it odd because they don't see it. It's you know, 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.760 I can't do a project without trying to force a 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:29.280 stupid punch bowl green in on it. And people say, well, 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.920 what the fuck is that, because well it's a punch 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.880 bowl green. Have you other been to Scotland? Every course 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.760 kind of has one, and there were these two knuckleheads 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.640 named MacDonald and Rayner who used to do them. And 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.920 these are the names of the courses. You know they've 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.760 done them on. Oh, I've heard of those courses. So 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:52.120 it's it's interesting crafts. 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.040 How did you get into golf course architecture? 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:03.960 My dad was in light construction. Well, he started out 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.680 working for a big company a JF. White that built 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.520 part of Logan Airport. He ran a bulldozer. He did 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.960 the Masspike extension into Boston. But then in the early 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.160 sixties and Andy, no answers are short with me, so 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:19.160 just tell me to shut up. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.440 You Yeah, you've heard enough. The beauty of this format 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.119 is you can just talk and we and it's great. 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:27.320 It's just a conversation. 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.400 But my dad, I had a little bit of a 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.559 reputation as a bulldozer operator and I grew up in Framingham, Massachusetts, 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.320 and oddly enough, there was a guy in Framingham, Massachusetts, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.920 who built, who was in a construction company that built 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:48.840 golf courses and playing fields, so he needed a guy 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.720 to shape greens and teas and bunkers in the early sixties. 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:54.680 And he said to my dad, Hey, why don't you 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.880 come try working with us for a week and we 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.720 can see how it goes. And after a week, Bob 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.800 Drake said to my father, you are the only guy 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.280 who's going to do stuff for me. By that time, 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.840 my dad and another guy from Framingham had started a 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.960 small construction company, just two guys. They had a couple 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:18.880 bulldozed as a couple back hoes, and for the spring, summer, 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:24.960 and fall, for the next eighteen or twenty years, that's 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.120 what my dad did. He worked. He did shaping for 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.920 this guy named Bob Drake, some new courses, but mostly renovation, 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.840 do existing courses. And that's what I wanted to do. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.440 But you know, my dad, he worked on the machine 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.160 six days a week and then on Sunday he was 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.040 his own mechanic. He'd do repairs and maintenance. And he 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:50.839 didn't want me doing that. So ever since I found out, 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.920 I wouldn't make it in the National Hockey League, which 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:55.760 I found out when I was thirteen, and I went 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.199 to a summer hockey school with kids all from all 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.079 over Canada in the United States, and it took me 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.120 about ten minutes to realize I'd never make it in 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.760 the NHL. I decided I wanted to be a golf 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.240 course architect, and my dad worked on a lot of 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.440 Jeffrey Cornish projects, who Jeff did a lot of work 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.360 in New England. And when I was in high school, 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.080 I met Mster Cornish and said, what should a kid 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.760 do who wants to be a golf course architect? And 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:25.680 Jeff said, well, you should go to turf school for 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.240 two years and then you should get your bachelor's in 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.800 landscape architecture, and you should work on golf courses during 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.160 the summer. And that was in those heady days when 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.880 I actually listened to what people told me. So that's 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.640 what I did, and when I was at then I 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.120 went to graduate school in plant so Sciences, and when 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.640 I was there, I taught a professor left right at 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.840 the last minute before a fall semester started, so I 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.000 taught a couple courses each semester in turf. I liked 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.320 that a lot. I went down to Lake City Community 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.439 College where they used to have a two year program 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.760 that trained superintendents. I taught there for three years, and 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.400 I wanted to get back to New England. I worked 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.920 for the USGA Green Section, you know, the agronomous staff, 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.760 visiting golf courses, and then one day mister Cornish and 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.640 I just happened to be visiting the same golf course 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.559 on the same day. We were walking it and all 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.440 the committee people were in carts, and when they went 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.400 to get the carts and we were walking down a hole, 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.559 Jeff turned to me and said, you know, I think 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:32.520 it's time you got involved in golf course design. Why 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.520 don't you come work with me and then I'll retire 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.960 after a few years, and and you can just run 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:44.040 with the ball and you know, like some wet behind 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.560 the is kind of guy. And myself, well, Jeff, Jeff, 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.000 let me think about it for a week. I mean 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.920 the minute he said that, I knew what was happening. 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.520 So a week later you played You played it cool, though, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.400 and you're like, oh, let me think about my actions. 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.920 No, the only the only thing that was obvious is 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:04.199 I immediately went my hands. But you know, I called 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:05.559 him back and said, I want to do that, and 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:07.280 he said, Okay, this is how we're going to do it. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.720 I want you to work for the United States Golf 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.240 Association for five more years. You've only worked there for 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:16.000 two years. And I just said, Jeff, I cannot do 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.600 I cannot know that this is going to happen. Sort 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:26.520 of my dream. I said, you're a wicked, awesome, nice gentleman. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:31.040 I said, could let me just finish this season and 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:35.400 next winter I'll come on with you. And so in 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.679 February of eighty three, I went on with Jeff. And 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.080 so that's kind of the way I got my start. 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:47.200 You know, if you're not Jack Nicholas or or someone 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.440 like that, it's still very much like the European system 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:55.320 of an apprentice occupation. And if you know what I mean, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.080 the Brian Silvers of the world don't just put a 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.480 shingle out and say hey, I'm a golf course architect 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.480 and then get jobs. And it's appropriate that they should 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:12.760 learn and train under somebody who's really well experienced. So 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.680 I was lucky, you know, when things were moving and 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.720 grooving in the eighties and the nineties and the early 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.520 two thousands. I would say that Jeff and I got 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.640 at least one hundred resumes a year from kids in 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:34.720 turf school, from kids from landscape architecture school, from fifty 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:36.520 year old guys who wanted to get out of the 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.760 financial business who wanted to become golf architects and wanted 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.280 to know how to do that. And out of all 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.480 those people, not many get a chance. And I was 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:52.120 just unbelievably fortunate to get a chance, because in all honesty, 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.320 I still get things where they send me, you know, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.680 full sized plans of these imaginary golf courses. They do 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:06.440 grading plans, and I just say to myself, Wow, my 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.440 stuff isn't half as good as this, And you know 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.760 they tried to get in. So I was just real lucky. 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.360 Yeah, I mean a lot of times it's an opportunity 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.120 and you know, hard work and are set and he 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.840 got a kind of the good start there. I mean it, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:27.160 it's interesting I look at the landscape of the architecture world, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.240 and especially with you know, the economic slowdown. Now you 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:36.840 have this marketplace where there aren't enough jobs for how 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.080 many talented like associates that work for guys like Core 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.120 and Crenshaw and Dope. And you know, if you look 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.440 back to the eighties and nineties, those guys would be, 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.680 you know, have their own architecture firms. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.480 Now, do you think I We had a couple of 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.160 young guys who work for us in the office and 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.040 one of them named Brian Johnson. His father was a 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.680 golf pro. So Brian's been doodling golf hole since he 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.080 was about six. He had to get out of it 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.080 because there was no work. He's got a management company 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.160 now in Houston, Texas, and he manages a golf course. 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.240 For a guy, I'm going to tell you something, if 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:22.160 he ever got a chance, he would blow everyone in 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.320 the industry away. He does my drafting now, So I 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:32.880 still get he's unbelievably talented and imaginative. I still get 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.120 the benefit of his imagination. But it's really sad that 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.480 a kid like Brian who wants it as much as 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:45.440 anyone I've ever known, and who is more talented than 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:50.560 anyone I've ever known, the multiple roots he thinks about it, Oh, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:55.840 Chie's and the strategy and the angles is just incredible. 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:01.360 It's too bad it is, And it's no fault. It's 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.080 through no fault to theirs. You know, this is the truth. 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:13.680 I got to do some work, not insignificantly, just by 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:20.040 lucky timing. Yeah, you know, nobody likes to say stuff 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.960 like that, but that's the truth. You know. Being born 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.520 when I was and getting into the work when I was, 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.240 there were ups and downs, you know, but nothing like 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.280 it is now in terms of new courses. I really 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.760 lived through a twenty five year boom. And that's why, 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.000 you know, when I see guys now and they bemoan 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:48.640 how quiet it is. I don't want to say the 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.520 wrong thing, but there are times when I'll say, well, 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.760 don't you think when we were all building three hundred 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.720 brand new courses a year that that was maybe as 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.560 ridiculous on one side of the equation as just building 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.920 five new courses a year. But you know what happens, dandy. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.080 You know, when you're in the heat of the battle 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.000 and that many courses are getting built and it goes 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.440 on for a couple decades or more, it's easy to think, well, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.639 this is the way it is, and you know it 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.000 in one way it was the way it is. In 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.520 another way, it definitely was not the way it is. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:35.800 And so if you live through that and you're complaining. Now, 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.720 I just don't know that you're taking a very realistic viewpoint. 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:47.840 But like Brian Johnson, I feel bad for these talented 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:54.399 guys and gals who just can't get their chance. It 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:02.560 further proves to me how fortunate a knucklehead like myself, 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.719 how how fortunate I was. 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.240 I don't know, it's it's like that old I think 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.400 it was the player saying, you know, the more you work, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.560 the luckier you get, and sounds like you put in 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:14.520 a lot of hard work. 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.199 So oh no, no, no, I did. But but you 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.520 know what Andy and I did. I worked. I believe 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.480 I worked as hard as anyone. When I used to 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.960 go to the Architects Society meetings and I talked, you know, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.160 after dinner with guys, what are you doing? Then there's 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.840 this They would just the volume of work would would 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.800 stun them a little bit. But you still can't. And 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.160 my wife says the same thing, Oh. 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.679 Any you actually had you you left on money and 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.520 you didn't come back till Saturday, all while Ananda was 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.960 growing up. You worked hard, And I said, yeah, but 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.960 you cannot get away from the fact that I had 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:58.119 the chance most you know, it's a small profession. A 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:02.840 lot of people never had a chance. So I realize 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.840 how fortunate I was. I when it's busy, you can 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.280 sometimes forget that, you can forget how full today I 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:15.200 got it going on. But again I think seeing Brian 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.479 Johnson such a great he's a great kid, really good player. 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.439 And I had him up and we played golf for 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.960 a few days in May. And I got up one 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:30.280 morning and on my desk was a couple of eight 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.359 and a half by eleven sheets of papers of golf 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.640 holes he designed over the night while he couldn't sleep. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:37.720 And when and I got up, I saw him and 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:39.840 he was already up, and he says, Brian, I really 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:40.919 want to I really want to. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:42.720 Get back in this. And I said, I know you do, Bry, 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.120 but but I said, you know, you have a really 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.000 good job right now. It's probably paying you more than 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.359 you could do if you could just scratch out a 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.879 job in somebody's office. And I know, you know, he 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.680 wants me to get busy enough to have to need 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.000 full time help, and I'm not sure that will ever 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:07.159 happen again. Yeah, being home during the recession, uh, you know, 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:09.639 being home more than two nights a week was a 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.960 real eye opening experience for me. I enjoyed it more 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:15.440 than I could have ever imagined. 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.920 Mhm. So you know you've started, You've done a lot 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:25.040 of restorations too, and I'd love to talk a little 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.920 bit about kind of the golden h architects that you've 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:32.600 encountered and kind of learned from, and who you consider 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.040 your biggest influences and why. 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:46.720 Well I I I got to go modern first, Andy, 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:55.480 because early on in my life, when I was teaching 0:20:55.520 --> 0:21:00.280 at Lake City and see, during the summer when there 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.560 were no classes, my job was to drive around the 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:11.639 Southeast and visit courses where my students were working on 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:18.560 their summer on the job training thing. And I started 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:23.440 to you know, Harbor Town and Well and even Seminole, 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.159 which Pete didn't design, but he was a member of. 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:32.399 I started to think that his courses were a little 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:38.480 bit different than other people's courses. And it wasn't just 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:44.399 it was it was decidedly not the railroad ties or 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:49.000 pot bunkers or strip bunkers. There was something going on there, 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.840 and and that kind of planted a little thing in 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.760 my mind. I wish I had been bright enough to 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:01.200 fully understand it, and Then when I became a USJA 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:06.600 agronomist up in the Northeast, I saw lots of golf courses, 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.879 but I started to really like these McDonald and Rayner 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:16.480 golf courses. There was something going on there. I wasn't 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.160 quite sure what it was, but I knew they were 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.240 different and they were fun to play, but they were 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:30.200 still challenging. But I still was so stupid, I couldn't 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:40.919 really boil it down to its fundamentals. And I'm going 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.520 to tell you a story I never tell in public. 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.280 But we used to close the office the first week 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.600 in December, back when we had an office, and we'd 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.000 go out to Lakenta, California. I had friends who worked 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:59.080 for Landmark, and we would play like Ryder Cup matches 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.879 against them for a week. There had be four of 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.520 us against four of them, and we would play Lakinita Mountain, 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:10.040 Lakita Citrus, we'd play PGA West, we'd play the old 0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:13.719 Dinah Shore, we'd play the New Dinah Shore. So it 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:21.359 was a Pete Dye extravaganza. And again I felt there 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.600 was something about his courses. And this is the truth, 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:28.119 and I'm a little embarrassed about this. One night after dinner, 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:32.000 I walked over to Lakinta Hotel. And this was in December, 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:35.400 about two weeks after they'd had the Skins game at 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:39.320 PGA West. Yea and I sat next to the fireplace, 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:41.879 and in a little wicker basket next to the fireplace 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:46.159 there were the program books that they sold during the 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:51.760 Skins game. Yeah, and I are you taping me? Andy? 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:52.000 Oh? 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:57.359 Yeah, okay, all right, then I won't use great expletives. 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:07.359 In this wicker basket was a program and I opened 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:11.160 it up and the centerfold. You know, only a guy 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:15.520 interested in design can go nuts about a centerfold, which 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:20.360 is an aerial photograph of PGA West, you know, and 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:24.240 when you look down on it from the sky, immediately 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:33.879 I said, oh, holy crap, it's all about angles. I 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:38.120 could see the angles that Pete had put in, how 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.360 a green might point down a point at the hook 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.600 side of the fairway, and how there was one of 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.600 his bite off strip bunkers that went down the right side. 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:49.080 And the more you bid off, the more you align 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:52.760 with the green. And I said, honest to God, I said, oh, 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.920 you stupid, sob you were on the edge of this, 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.440 but it didn't with the different old points didn't all 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:07.160 go together to make you realize it. And that day 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:13.600 what I thought about golf course design completely changed. So 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:23.040 it was really Pete's angles hit me. I didn't fully 0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:27.439 form it in my mind or verbalize it. And then 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:30.560 Rayner McDonald I saw more of that. And then when 0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:36.440 I saw this picture, it completely changed the way I thought. 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:39.719 I knew my carter's for play had to be much wider. 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.120 I knew we had to cut down trees to give 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:48.159 people the width that allows alternate routes. It was really 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:54.919 it was a interesting for me awaken For if you 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:58.119 said to me, Brian, what would you do different in 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:02.000 your life? I would say to you, well, I would 0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:04.120 have gone to see all the golf courses I did 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.480 when I was working at the college, when I was 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:09.240 grown up, going to my dad's jobs, when I was 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.720 a USG green section agronomous. But I would have gone 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:16.760 and visited even more, and I would have stopped looking 0:26:16.800 --> 0:26:21.480 at the turf. I would have looked at what I 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:26.080 call the skeleton, the tops of the t's, the top 0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:28.879