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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast,

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Speaker 1: this one with Brian Silva.

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Speaker 2: We did a little differently, started having a conversation and

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Speaker 2: it just worked, so don't have that normal intro that

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Speaker 2: we had at most of our podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and if you haven't already, please subscribe

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Speaker 1: to us. Rate us in the iTunes app store. It

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Speaker 1: really helps us out, gets more eyeballs on the on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. And if you haven't, please subscribe to the

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Speaker 1: Friday Egg newsletter. It's sent every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

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Speaker 2: It's the easiest way to stay up to date with

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Speaker 2: golf and everything that's going on.

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Speaker 1: So thanks again, and without further ado, here is Brian Silva.

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Speaker 2: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

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Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my.

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Speaker 3: Ball in a brid egg Frida Egg, Frida Egrida, Frida

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Speaker 3: bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to on off of the.

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Speaker 2: I've been out at the Western m this week, which

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Speaker 2: is at Skokie Country Club. I mean, unbelievable set of greens,

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Speaker 2: and you know they have this one that has this

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Speaker 2: massive false front. They have a couple with them that.

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Speaker 2: But you know this, this guy is complaining. I was

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Speaker 2: with my buddy in a practice round and this guy's complaining.

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Speaker 2: He's like, I don't understand why this is all green here.

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Speaker 2: It's not like they can put a pin there. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, well, that's why your ball will roll twenty

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Speaker 2: yards down the hill. You know, it's makes the whole green.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's hard for people to appreciate that the green,

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Speaker 4: under the best circumstances is part of the hazard on

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Speaker 4: a hole. And it's better that you hear things like

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Speaker 4: that than I do, because I don't hide my visual

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Speaker 4: reaction when some knucklehead says something like that. You know,

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Speaker 4: all they're trying to do is make every golf course

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Speaker 4: in America like every other golf course in America and

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Speaker 4: kind of homogenize vanilla eyes it down to the least interesting,

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Speaker 4: most standard, least unexciting thing. It's unbelievable. It's such an

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Speaker 4: incredible double standard. You know, of course has a really unique,

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Speaker 4: beautiful clubhouse. Those people would who want to just dummy

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Speaker 4: down their golf course and make it look like every

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Speaker 4: other golf course would never say, you know, our clubhouse,

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Speaker 4: it's really too unique. We really need to tear it

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Speaker 4: down and like put up a metal butler building. Oh

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Speaker 4: and then they'll say a metal a butler building. That's

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Speaker 4: easier to maintain because everything that gets done. I say

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Speaker 4: to people sadly, when we do a project, there's maybe

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Speaker 4: ten items of interest that we're that that everyone's talking

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Speaker 4: about keeping in mind throughout the entire project. And you know,

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Speaker 4: bullet points or whatever you want to call them. One

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Speaker 4: is the most important. It's the one that gets talked

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Speaker 4: about the most, and ten is the least important, the

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Speaker 4: one that gets talked about with the least I swear

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Speaker 4: more often than not, characteristics of golf course design find

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Speaker 4: themselves largely lodged in number ten. It's a she's how

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Speaker 4: do we get the cart paths around? And you know,

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Speaker 4: I hit a perfect I hit a perfect shot to

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Speaker 4: this green, but because of this false front that shouldn't

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Speaker 4: even be green, I ended up twenty yards back in

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Speaker 4: the fair way. That's not fair. So it's fascinating, and

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Speaker 4: all it proves, Andy, don't take this personally, is guys

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Speaker 4: like you and me haven't done a good enough job educating. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I know, I agree, you know what I mean it's

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Speaker 4: just and unfortunately we're swimming against the tide because more

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Speaker 4: often than not, when a new course gets well, they

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Speaker 4: don't get built anymore. But when work gets done, it

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Speaker 4: really you would think their goal was to take the

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Speaker 4: character out of the course, to you know, take the

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Speaker 4: unique features out of the course. It's unfortunate. Now, don't

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Speaker 4: get me wrong, I think this the swell work going

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Speaker 4: on out there, but there still was this in ertia

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Speaker 4: to make every golf course look like it was built

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Speaker 4: in the nineteen sixties. And that's unfortunate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's the it's really interesting. I mean

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Speaker 2: I watched this kid, Cameron Jamp yesterday play and he's

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Speaker 2: like one of the longest guys on you know, he'd

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Speaker 2: be the longest guy on tour. He's a college kid.

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Speaker 2: He kills it. And he played this four hundred yard hole.

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Speaker 2: The pin was way up front on the right side

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Speaker 2: and he hit driver up to like thirty yards and

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Speaker 2: he was absolutely dead because you know, the way the

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Speaker 2: green was, and this is a green that would never

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Speaker 2: be built by.

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Speaker 4: Today, right, and the way.

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Speaker 2: The green was. He had a knob in front of

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Speaker 2: this front pin and a knob behind it, and he

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Speaker 2: had nothing. He couldn't do anything, and it's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: like that was a really bad play, Like you need

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Speaker 2: to have a full shot going into that green right right,

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Speaker 2: And people are you know, how do you defend distance?

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Speaker 2: How do you but like great green complexes defend well,

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Speaker 2: because then you have to play angles and you have

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Speaker 2: to have a strategy going into the hole rather than

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Speaker 2: just you know, pull out driver and bludge in the course.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I think those are.

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Speaker 4: Those are outlandish thoughts, Andy, that you'd actually think on

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Speaker 4: the tee where you want to be the best access

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Speaker 4: to the green, You're you're going in the wrong direction,

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Speaker 4: big guy. You know, it's all power golf. It's very sad.

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Speaker 2: I sense a hint of sarcasm.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I see why a lot of people

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Speaker 4: are like that. And uh, because if you put a

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Speaker 4: if you put a percentage on the number of courses

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Speaker 4: in the United States that don't require that thought, that

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Speaker 4: don't have of the angles, that don't have the strategy,

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Speaker 4: that don't have multiple roots, I'm afraid that percentage would

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Speaker 4: be above ninety percent. And so they're not used. They've

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Speaker 4: never seen it before, and when they see it, they

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Speaker 4: find it odd because they don't see it. It's you know,

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Speaker 4: I can't do a project without trying to force a

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Speaker 4: stupid punch bowl green in on it. And people say, well,

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Speaker 4: what the fuck is that, because well it's a punch

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Speaker 4: bowl green. Have you other been to Scotland? Every course

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Speaker 4: kind of has one, and there were these two knuckleheads

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Speaker 4: named MacDonald and Rayner who used to do them. And

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Speaker 4: these are the names of the courses. You know they've

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Speaker 4: done them on. Oh, I've heard of those courses. So

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Speaker 4: it's it's interesting crafts.

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Speaker 2: How did you get into golf course architecture?

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Speaker 4: My dad was in light construction. Well, he started out

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Speaker 4: working for a big company a JF. White that built

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Speaker 4: part of Logan Airport. He ran a bulldozer. He did

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Speaker 4: the Masspike extension into Boston. But then in the early

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Speaker 4: sixties and Andy, no answers are short with me, so

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Speaker 4: just tell me to shut up.

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Speaker 2: You Yeah, you've heard enough. The beauty of this format

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Speaker 2: is you can just talk and we and it's great.

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Speaker 2: It's just a conversation.

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Speaker 4: But my dad, I had a little bit of a

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Speaker 4: reputation as a bulldozer operator and I grew up in Framingham, Massachusetts,

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Speaker 4: and oddly enough, there was a guy in Framingham, Massachusetts,

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Speaker 4: who built, who was in a construction company that built

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Speaker 4: golf courses and playing fields, so he needed a guy

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Speaker 4: to shape greens and teas and bunkers in the early sixties.

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Speaker 4: And he said to my dad, Hey, why don't you

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Speaker 4: come try working with us for a week and we

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Speaker 4: can see how it goes. And after a week, Bob

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Speaker 4: Drake said to my father, you are the only guy

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Speaker 4: who's going to do stuff for me. By that time,

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Speaker 4: my dad and another guy from Framingham had started a

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Speaker 4: small construction company, just two guys. They had a couple

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Speaker 4: bulldozed as a couple back hoes, and for the spring, summer,

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Speaker 4: and fall, for the next eighteen or twenty years, that's

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Speaker 4: what my dad did. He worked. He did shaping for

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Speaker 4: this guy named Bob Drake, some new courses, but mostly renovation,

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Speaker 4: do existing courses. And that's what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 4: But you know, my dad, he worked on the machine

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Speaker 4: six days a week and then on Sunday he was

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Speaker 4: his own mechanic. He'd do repairs and maintenance. And he

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Speaker 4: didn't want me doing that. So ever since I found out,

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't make it in the National Hockey League, which

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Speaker 4: I found out when I was thirteen, and I went

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Speaker 4: to a summer hockey school with kids all from all

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Speaker 4: over Canada in the United States, and it took me

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Speaker 4: about ten minutes to realize I'd never make it in

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Speaker 4: the NHL. I decided I wanted to be a golf

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Speaker 4: course architect, and my dad worked on a lot of

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Speaker 4: Jeffrey Cornish projects, who Jeff did a lot of work

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Speaker 4: in New England. And when I was in high school,

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Speaker 4: I met Mster Cornish and said, what should a kid

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Speaker 4: do who wants to be a golf course architect? And

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Speaker 4: Jeff said, well, you should go to turf school for

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Speaker 4: two years and then you should get your bachelor's in

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Speaker 4: landscape architecture, and you should work on golf courses during

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Speaker 4: the summer. And that was in those heady days when

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Speaker 4: I actually listened to what people told me. So that's

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Speaker 4: what I did, and when I was at then I

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Speaker 4: went to graduate school in plant so Sciences, and when

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Speaker 4: I was there, I taught a professor left right at

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Speaker 4: the last minute before a fall semester started, so I

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Speaker 4: taught a couple courses each semester in turf. I liked

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Speaker 4: that a lot. I went down to Lake City Community

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Speaker 4: College where they used to have a two year program

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Speaker 4: that trained superintendents. I taught there for three years, and

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Speaker 4: I wanted to get back to New England. I worked

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Speaker 4: for the USGA Green Section, you know, the agronomous staff,

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Speaker 4: visiting golf courses, and then one day mister Cornish and

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Speaker 4: I just happened to be visiting the same golf course

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Speaker 4: on the same day. We were walking it and all

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Speaker 4: the committee people were in carts, and when they went

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Speaker 4: to get the carts and we were walking down a hole,

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Speaker 4: Jeff turned to me and said, you know, I think

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Speaker 4: it's time you got involved in golf course design. Why

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Speaker 4: don't you come work with me and then I'll retire

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Speaker 4: after a few years, and and you can just run

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Speaker 4: with the ball and you know, like some wet behind

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Speaker 4: the is kind of guy. And myself, well, Jeff, Jeff,

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Speaker 4: let me think about it for a week. I mean

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Speaker 4: the minute he said that, I knew what was happening.

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Speaker 2: So a week later you played You played it cool, though,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, let me think about my actions.

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Speaker 4: No, the only the only thing that was obvious is

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Speaker 4: I immediately went my hands. But you know, I called

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Speaker 4: him back and said, I want to do that, and

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Speaker 4: he said, Okay, this is how we're going to do it.

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Speaker 4: I want you to work for the United States Golf

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Speaker 4: Association for five more years. You've only worked there for

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Speaker 4: two years. And I just said, Jeff, I cannot do

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Speaker 4: I cannot know that this is going to happen. Sort

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Speaker 4: of my dream. I said, you're a wicked, awesome, nice gentleman.

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Speaker 4: I said, could let me just finish this season and

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Speaker 4: next winter I'll come on with you. And so in

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Speaker 4: February of eighty three, I went on with Jeff. And

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Speaker 4: so that's kind of the way I got my start.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you're not Jack Nicholas or or someone

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Speaker 4: like that, it's still very much like the European system

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Speaker 4: of an apprentice occupation. And if you know what I mean,

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Speaker 4: the Brian Silvers of the world don't just put a

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Speaker 4: shingle out and say hey, I'm a golf course architect

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Speaker 4: and then get jobs. And it's appropriate that they should

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Speaker 4: learn and train under somebody who's really well experienced. So

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Speaker 4: I was lucky, you know, when things were moving and

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Speaker 4: grooving in the eighties and the nineties and the early

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Speaker 4: two thousands. I would say that Jeff and I got

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Speaker 4: at least one hundred resumes a year from kids in

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Speaker 4: turf school, from kids from landscape architecture school, from fifty

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Speaker 4: year old guys who wanted to get out of the

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Speaker 4: financial business who wanted to become golf architects and wanted

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Speaker 4: to know how to do that. And out of all

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Speaker 4: those people, not many get a chance. And I was

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Speaker 4: just unbelievably fortunate to get a chance, because in all honesty,

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Speaker 4: I still get things where they send me, you know,

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Speaker 4: full sized plans of these imaginary golf courses. They do

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Speaker 4: grading plans, and I just say to myself, Wow, my

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Speaker 4: stuff isn't half as good as this, And you know

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Speaker 4: they tried to get in. So I was just real lucky.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a lot of times it's an opportunity

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Speaker 2: and you know, hard work and are set and he

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Speaker 2: got a kind of the good start there. I mean it,

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Speaker 2: it's interesting I look at the landscape of the architecture world,

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Speaker 2: and especially with you know, the economic slowdown. Now you

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Speaker 2: have this marketplace where there aren't enough jobs for how

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Speaker 2: many talented like associates that work for guys like Core

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Speaker 2: and Crenshaw and Dope. And you know, if you look

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Speaker 2: back to the eighties and nineties, those guys would be,

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Speaker 2: you know, have their own architecture firms.

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Speaker 4: Now, do you think I We had a couple of

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Speaker 4: young guys who work for us in the office and

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Speaker 4: one of them named Brian Johnson. His father was a

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Speaker 4: golf pro. So Brian's been doodling golf hole since he

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Speaker 4: was about six. He had to get out of it

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Speaker 4: because there was no work. He's got a management company

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Speaker 4: now in Houston, Texas, and he manages a golf course.

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Speaker 4: For a guy, I'm going to tell you something, if

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Speaker 4: he ever got a chance, he would blow everyone in

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Speaker 4: the industry away. He does my drafting now, So I

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Speaker 4: still get he's unbelievably talented and imaginative. I still get

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Speaker 4: the benefit of his imagination. But it's really sad that

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Speaker 4: a kid like Brian who wants it as much as

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Speaker 4: anyone I've ever known, and who is more talented than

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Speaker 4: anyone I've ever known, the multiple roots he thinks about it, Oh,

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Speaker 4: Chie's and the strategy and the angles is just incredible.

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Speaker 4: It's too bad it is, And it's no fault. It's

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Speaker 4: through no fault to theirs. You know, this is the truth.

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Speaker 4: I got to do some work, not insignificantly, just by

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Speaker 4: lucky timing. Yeah, you know, nobody likes to say stuff

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Speaker 4: like that, but that's the truth. You know. Being born

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Speaker 4: when I was and getting into the work when I was,

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Speaker 4: there were ups and downs, you know, but nothing like

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Speaker 4: it is now in terms of new courses. I really

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Speaker 4: lived through a twenty five year boom. And that's why,

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Speaker 4: you know, when I see guys now and they bemoan

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Speaker 4: how quiet it is. I don't want to say the

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Speaker 4: wrong thing, but there are times when I'll say, well,

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Speaker 4: don't you think when we were all building three hundred

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Speaker 4: brand new courses a year that that was maybe as

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Speaker 4: ridiculous on one side of the equation as just building

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Speaker 4: five new courses a year. But you know what happens, dandy.

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Speaker 4: You know, when you're in the heat of the battle

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Speaker 4: and that many courses are getting built and it goes

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Speaker 4: on for a couple decades or more, it's easy to think, well,

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Speaker 4: this is the way it is, and you know it

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Speaker 4: in one way it was the way it is. In

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Speaker 4: another way, it definitely was not the way it is.

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Speaker 4: And so if you live through that and you're complaining. Now,

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Speaker 4: I just don't know that you're taking a very realistic viewpoint.

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Speaker 4: But like Brian Johnson, I feel bad for these talented

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Speaker 4: guys and gals who just can't get their chance. It

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Speaker 4: further proves to me how fortunate a knucklehead like myself,

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Speaker 4: how how fortunate I was.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it's like that old I think

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Speaker 2: it was the player saying, you know, the more you work,

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Speaker 2: the luckier you get, and sounds like you put in

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Speaker 2: a lot of hard work.

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Speaker 4: So oh no, no, no, I did. But but you

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Speaker 4: know what Andy and I did. I worked. I believe

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Speaker 4: I worked as hard as anyone. When I used to

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Speaker 4: go to the Architects Society meetings and I talked, you know,

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Speaker 4: after dinner with guys, what are you doing? Then there's

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Speaker 4: this They would just the volume of work would would

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Speaker 4: stun them a little bit. But you still can't. And

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Speaker 4: my wife says the same thing, Oh.

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Speaker 5: Any you actually had you you left on money and

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Speaker 5: you didn't come back till Saturday, all while Ananda was

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Speaker 5: growing up. You worked hard, And I said, yeah, but

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Speaker 5: you cannot get away from the fact that I had

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Speaker 5: the chance most you know, it's a small profession. A

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Speaker 5: lot of people never had a chance. So I realize

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Speaker 5: how fortunate I was. I when it's busy, you can

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Speaker 5: sometimes forget that, you can forget how full today I

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Speaker 5: got it going on. But again I think seeing Brian

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Speaker 5: Johnson such a great he's a great kid, really good player.

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Speaker 5: And I had him up and we played golf for

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Speaker 5: a few days in May. And I got up one

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Speaker 5: morning and on my desk was a couple of eight

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Speaker 5: and a half by eleven sheets of papers of golf

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Speaker 5: holes he designed over the night while he couldn't sleep.

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Speaker 5: And when and I got up, I saw him and

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Speaker 5: he was already up, and he says, Brian, I really

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Speaker 5: want to I really want to.

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Speaker 4: Get back in this. And I said, I know you do, Bry,

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Speaker 4: but but I said, you know, you have a really

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Speaker 4: good job right now. It's probably paying you more than

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Speaker 4: you could do if you could just scratch out a

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Speaker 4: job in somebody's office. And I know, you know, he

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Speaker 4: wants me to get busy enough to have to need

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Speaker 4: full time help, and I'm not sure that will ever

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Speaker 4: happen again. Yeah, being home during the recession, uh, you know,

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Speaker 4: being home more than two nights a week was a

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Speaker 4: real eye opening experience for me. I enjoyed it more

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Speaker 4: than I could have ever imagined.

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Speaker 2: Mhm. So you know you've started, You've done a lot

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Speaker 2: of restorations too, and I'd love to talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about kind of the golden h architects that you've

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Speaker 2: encountered and kind of learned from, and who you consider

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Speaker 2: your biggest influences and why.

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Speaker 4: Well I I I got to go modern first, Andy,

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Speaker 4: because early on in my life, when I was teaching

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Speaker 4: at Lake City and see, during the summer when there

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Speaker 4: were no classes, my job was to drive around the

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Speaker 4: Southeast and visit courses where my students were working on

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Speaker 4: their summer on the job training thing. And I started

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Speaker 4: to you know, Harbor Town and Well and even Seminole,

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Speaker 4: which Pete didn't design, but he was a member of.

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Speaker 4: I started to think that his courses were a little

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Speaker 4: bit different than other people's courses. And it wasn't just

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Speaker 4: it was it was decidedly not the railroad ties or

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Speaker 4: pot bunkers or strip bunkers. There was something going on there,

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Speaker 4: and and that kind of planted a little thing in

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Speaker 4: my mind. I wish I had been bright enough to

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Speaker 4: fully understand it, and Then when I became a USJA

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Speaker 4: agronomist up in the Northeast, I saw lots of golf courses,

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Speaker 4: but I started to really like these McDonald and Rayner

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Speaker 4: golf courses. There was something going on there. I wasn't

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Speaker 4: quite sure what it was, but I knew they were

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Speaker 4: different and they were fun to play, but they were

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Speaker 4: still challenging. But I still was so stupid, I couldn't

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Speaker 4: really boil it down to its fundamentals. And I'm going

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Speaker 4: to tell you a story I never tell in public.

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Speaker 4: But we used to close the office the first week

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Speaker 4: in December, back when we had an office, and we'd

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Speaker 4: go out to Lakenta, California. I had friends who worked

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Speaker 4: for Landmark, and we would play like Ryder Cup matches

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Speaker 4: against them for a week. There had be four of

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Speaker 4: us against four of them, and we would play Lakinita Mountain,

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Speaker 4: Lakita Citrus, we'd play PGA West, we'd play the old

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Speaker 4: Dinah Shore, we'd play the New Dinah Shore. So it

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Speaker 4: was a Pete Dye extravaganza. And again I felt there

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Speaker 4: was something about his courses. And this is the truth,

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Speaker 4: and I'm a little embarrassed about this. One night after dinner,

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Speaker 4: I walked over to Lakinta Hotel. And this was in December,

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Speaker 4: about two weeks after they'd had the Skins game at

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Speaker 4: PGA West. Yea and I sat next to the fireplace,

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Speaker 4: and in a little wicker basket next to the fireplace

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Speaker 4: there were the program books that they sold during the

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Speaker 4: Skins game. Yeah, and I are you taping me? Andy?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, all right, then I won't use great expletives.

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Speaker 4: In this wicker basket was a program and I opened

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Speaker 4: it up and the centerfold. You know, only a guy

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Speaker 4: interested in design can go nuts about a centerfold, which

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Speaker 4: is an aerial photograph of PGA West, you know, and

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Speaker 4: when you look down on it from the sky, immediately

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Speaker 4: I said, oh, holy crap, it's all about angles. I

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Speaker 4: could see the angles that Pete had put in, how

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Speaker 4: a green might point down a point at the hook

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Speaker 4: side of the fairway, and how there was one of

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Speaker 4: his bite off strip bunkers that went down the right side.

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Speaker 4: And the more you bid off, the more you align

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Speaker 4: with the green. And I said, honest to God, I said, oh,

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Speaker 4: you stupid, sob you were on the edge of this,

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Speaker 4: but it didn't with the different old points didn't all

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Speaker 4: go together to make you realize it. And that day

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Speaker 4: what I thought about golf course design completely changed. So

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Speaker 4: it was really Pete's angles hit me. I didn't fully

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Speaker 4: form it in my mind or verbalize it. And then

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Speaker 4: Rayner McDonald I saw more of that. And then when

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Speaker 4: I saw this picture, it completely changed the way I thought.

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Speaker 4: I knew my carter's for play had to be much wider.

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Speaker 4: I knew we had to cut down trees to give

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Speaker 4: people the width that allows alternate routes. It was really

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Speaker 4: it was a interesting for me awaken For if you

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Speaker 4: said to me, Brian, what would you do different in

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Speaker 4: your life? I would say to you, well, I would

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Speaker 4: have gone to see all the golf courses I did

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Speaker 4: when I was working at the college, when I was

396
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Speaker 4: grown up, going to my dad's jobs, when I was

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Speaker 4: a USG green section agronomous. But I would have gone

398
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Speaker 4: and visited even more, and I would have stopped looking

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Speaker 4: at the turf. I would have looked at what I

400
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Speaker 4: call the skeleton, the tops of the t's, the top

401
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Speaker 4: of the fairway and the top of the green, and

402
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Speaker 4: I would look at what angles are presented by that,

403
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Speaker 4: because I think that that is ninety nine point nine

404
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 4: percent of what allows a golf course to be strategic,

405
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Speaker 4: but also what allows a golf course to be played

406
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Speaker 4: by the average and less than average player, but what

407
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 4: allows a golf course to still be mentally stimulating for

408
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Speaker 4: an excellent player. To me, it's all its angles and

409
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Speaker 4: almost nothing else. And so this age of the Internet,

410
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Speaker 4: Google Earth is my favorite site because when I get called, hey,

411
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Speaker 4: this is so and so from such and such country club,

412
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 4: I'm on Google Earth doing my homework before I get

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Speaker 4: out there. And and the funny thing is, you know,

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Speaker 4: they'll they'll say to me when I'm walking, of course,

415
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: so what do you think of the conditions? And I say, look,

416
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Speaker 4: I'll tell you what I think of the conditions, because

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Speaker 4: I kind of you know, I have a turf degree,

418
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 4: I have a master's training and plant and soil sciences.

419
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: I was a USDA agrantoist. But I said, I'm really

420
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Speaker 4: not here to tell you about your turf. I'm interested in, if,

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Speaker 4: if you'll forgive me, I think you should be interested

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Speaker 4: in the design character of your golf course. Does it

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00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 4: present angles, does it present alternate routes of play? And

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Speaker 4: so on and so forth. So those are my those

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Speaker 4: are my influences? In a long answer, Andy.

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Speaker 2: Uh so, I'm curious. I'm all about angles and strategy

427
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Speaker 2: and and I don't think it's really possible to have

428
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Speaker 2: those without wid Do you agree with that? You?

429
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 4: No, I couldn't agree more. And being that I'm an

430
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: old card I'm going to tell you secrets I don't

431
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 4: normally tell. I used to. I used to teach a

432
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: two day seminar, first with Bob Lowman and then Jan

433
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 4: Bell Jan for the Golf Course Superintendent's Association. And it

434
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 4: was on golf course renovation, restoration and construction. And one

435
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 4: day during the seminary, a kid said to me, how

436
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 4: why do you clear your corridors when you're building a

437
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 4: new course through the woods? And I, you know, I

438
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 4: I was honest. I said between one hundred and eighty

439
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 4: and two hundred feet. And at lunch Jan said to me,

440
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: did you misunderstand that question? And I said no? And

441
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 4: she said, well, Brian, how do you do all the

442
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 4: things you want to do on a golf hole in

443
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 4: such ant carder? This was before the light bulb went

444
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: on with the aerial photograph of PGA West of all places.

445
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, you know, most people would

446
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 4: think of PGA West and some of the pot bunkers

447
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: and railroad ties and think it's not a sound course.

448
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 4: But you see, that's the trouble today. They're looking at

449
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 4: the superficial aspects of a golf course. They're not looking

450
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: at the skeleton. Don't tell me about the skin, which

451
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 4: is the turf, and don't tell me that much about

452
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 4: the muscles and tendons, which are some of the railroad ties.

453
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 4: What angles does it present? So Jan said that, and

454
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 4: that kind of had an effect on me. And then

455
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 4: there used to be a trade magazine. Jeez, I can't

456
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 4: remember the name of it now that we're talking about it,

457
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 4: but a law had been passed in Hawaii that said

458
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 4: you could only clear cards for golf holes like I

459
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 4: can't remember the number two hundred twenty your whatever feet wide.

460
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 4: And there was a comment from Nicholas that says, well,

461
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 4: I don't see how we can build golf courses anymore,

462
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 4: and his gosh, I credit Jack with something that's very

463
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 4: out of character. But Jan, because I really admired gence,

464
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 4: she was really a good friend of mine. And then

465
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 4: I saw this aerial photograph and I said, I can't

466
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 4: do what I want to do. It's like the tire

467
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 4: commercial wider is better, I can't do. And that's what

468
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: people used to say with the courses of mine. From

469
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 4: a little bit later time in my career. A guy

470
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 4: would play at friends of mine. They'd say, gee, you

471
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 4: could hit fit three of your original golf holes in

472
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 4: this golf hall. And I said, I wasn't doing it right.

473
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 4: It's got to be wider to allow the strategy and

474
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: the different angles. And you know, I used to do

475
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 4: lateral fairway bunkers like everybody in the sixties and a

476
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 4: lot of people still today. Now I turned most of

477
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 4: my fairway bunkers perpendicular shot, so they bite into the fairway.

478
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: Now I like the fairway to swing out to the

479
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: side the opposite side, so it's still the same with

480
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: pretty much going all the way down. But you know,

481
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 4: it's like I remember I saw Shinnecock when I worked

482
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 4: for the USGA, and there was something going on there.

483
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 4: I wasn't sure what it was. And when I read

484
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 4: articles about Shinnacock, it was, well, Shinnacock's a great course

485
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 4: because the fescue is blowing into the breeze and blah,

486
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. That isn't it. It was because of

487
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: its sinewy fairways that moved to the right and then

488
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 4: back to the left. It's set up on the same

489
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 4: golf hole. It's set up fade drive zones, it set

490
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 4: up straight drive zones, it set up hook drive zones.

491
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 4: And when you it's the same as the s turns

492
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 4: that Pete puts into his fairways. So those things all

493
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 4: other people are able to coalesced these inputs quicker than

494
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 4: I did. But once I did, I knew it was

495
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 4: wider and that I really wanted to try to get

496
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 4: some of those turns into the fairways because they so

497
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 4: impacted strategy.

498
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: Well, I also imagine starting your career during that time,

499
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: it was common practice for penal and tight. You know,

500
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: hard golf was great golf, and it people wanted to

501
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: go out and struggle on the golf course. And that's

502
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: what you know the developers wanted were hard golf courses

503
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: as opposed to fun, playable and courses that really infuse thought.

504
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, your kind and the honest god to suggest that,

505
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 4: I just think there's a million reasons for someone to

506
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 4: say why they weren't designing more strategic and thought provoking

507
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 4: golf courses. And I think the only good one is

508
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 4: they hadn't evolved at that point in their thinking, or

509
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 4: they just didn't think that way. I think that, you know,

510
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 4: there was thought, but Pete was still Pete was building

511
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 4: hired golf courses with tremendously sinewy fairways that were very

512
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 4: strategic that I could go to and play the sixty

513
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 4: three hundred yard marker and play to my handicap while

514
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 4: the pros from the back markers were having trouble. So

515
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: if you'll forgive me for saying, and I'm I am

516
00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 4: a piece of evidence number one that it's just it's

517
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 4: a little bit of a helpful excuse, you know. I

518
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 4: think that I think that people could have sold their

519
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 4: developer on Look, we're going to make a great golf course.

520
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: Here.

521
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 4: Here's the eighth hole from Shinnecock that everyone raves about.

522
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 4: Here's the sixteenth hole at Chhinnacock that everyone raves about.

523
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 4: And I've taken out the hay down the sides so

524
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 4: you're not distracted by that. The reason this is a

525
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 4: great hole, well, the reasons this is a great hole

526
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 4: is the green points in a particular direction. The fairway

527
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 4: has lots of movement. If you want to set up

528
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 4: a shot a drive, so your approach shot works with

529
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: the angle of the green. You either need to drop

530
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: it short of that hook bunker, put it as close

531
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 4: to the right of the hook bunker as you can,

532
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: or hit a draw around that hook bunker and that

533
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 4: sets up the angle. And that's what makes it a

534
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 4: great golf course. And that's what I want to do

535
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 4: on your golf course. So you need to give me

536
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 4: a little more within the corridors between the houses going

537
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 4: down both sides, and that we could achieve that kind

538
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 4: of thing. So I think I think even today, you know,

539
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 4: there are visible people out there who were putting these

540
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 4: characteristics into their golf courses.

541
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: But I.

542
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 4: Think they could have put them in even in courses

543
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 4: in the eighties and nineties. They could have convinced their

544
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 4: owners that this can still be an interesting difficult because

545
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: I mean, look at PGA West, It's got sinewy fairways

546
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: and angles seven days a week. The pros played it.

547
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 4: The first year was open as a Bob Hope as

548
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 4: a courser in the Bob Hope Tournament, and then they

549
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 4: wrote a they all put a petition. They never wanted

550
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 4: to play it again, and they've never played it again,

551
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 4: although I think they played it this past year. Yeah,

552
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 4: part of the Bob Hope. Well now they played it

553
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 4: and they shoot sixty threes because they figured it out.

554
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 4: See that's the interesting thing the PGA West of the world.

555
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 4: Just forget the deep bunkers and the realities and all

556
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,479
Speaker 4: that external stuff. You have to think when you play.

557
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 4: And that's what those holes that Hinnacock did. They did

558
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 4: what Ben Hogan used to say, on the best golf holes,

559
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 4: you have to think one shot ahead. And the trouble

560
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 4: is all golfers have played ninety percent of their rounds

561
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 4: of golf on courses that don't require that thought, so

562
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 4: they can often reject a course where you actually have

563
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 4: to think a little bit and kind of like tack

564
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 4: your way from waypoint to waypoint. In the winter, I

565
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 4: play a lot of golf and I'll say, look at

566
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 4: how this hole is set up. You should set up

567
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: on the right side of the tee. You always hit

568
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 4: fade that allow you to end up in the fair way.

569
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: It would be better if you were on the left hand.

570
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 4: And I've had my friends turn to me and say, well,

571
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 4: I don't want to think when I play, And I say, yeah,

572
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 4: but wait a minute. It's five seconds a shot. You

573
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: shoot a hundred, it's five hundred seconds. You need to

574
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 4: think for eight minutes. You can do that. I know

575
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 4: you can.

576
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a It requires a few, like brief seconds

577
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: of intense thought every couple of minutes.

578
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 4: No, and and people reject that. And you see it

579
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 4: in the poor average players who are hit and hook

580
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: every single shot, hit and fade every single shot, and

581
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 4: they tee it up in the middle of the tea

582
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: and they aim right down the middle. It's just if

583
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 4: they gave it a little more thought, you know, that

584
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 4: kind of course management when I sometimes think when someone

585
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,479
Speaker 4: takes a lesson, you know, they should do it half

586
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 4: an hour on what are you having a problem with

587
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 4: your grip, let's work on your grip and we'll try

588
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 4: to improve that. And then the next half hour they

589
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 4: should it down and say, look at the golf hole

590
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: on the computer screen, where do you want to try

591
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 4: to hit it? And you know they'll say, well, I'm

592
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 4: not sure I want to hit it down the middle.

593
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: And then the pro would say, well, yeah, but look

594
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 4: at how that green, it's kind of what we call

595
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 4: a fade green. It it moves to the right from

596
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 4: front to back. You if you if you play a

597
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: fade you can fail positively. If it doesn't fade, you'll

598
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 4: have a longer put. But if it does fade, you're

599
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 4: closer to the pin. And by playing fade, because it's

600
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 4: a fade green, you'll take those nasty bunkers that play

601
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 4: a role in making it a fade green, you'll take

602
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,479
Speaker 4: them completely out of play. So if folks could read

603
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 4: holes a little bit better, but again I don't, I'm

604
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 4: not giving them a hard time because the majority around

605
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 4: in their life, they haven't had a hole that was

606
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 4: set up so it could be read and played strategic.

607
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: And also that education, it's it's hard to learn about

608
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 2: that stuff. It's you know, I think it almost takes

609
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 2: an awakening and you hit on it a little bit

610
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: about not having a hole. But I see so many

611
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: of my friends. They they when they finally play a

612
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: great golf course, they that has the width and the

613
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: angles and the strategy, they finally realize that, wait, golf

614
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: can be different and there is like this better golf

615
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: that exists.

616
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 4: Ye, And when we make a change on an existing course.

617
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 4: I generally find that a good percentage of the players

618
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 4: find out something's going on by mistake. They hit it

619
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: down the left side, by mistake, they pull it, and

620
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 4: when they get there they see the green is completely

621
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 4: open to the next shot, and they start to connect

622
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 4: the dots, and then they start to look for that

623
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 4: more on the next hole and the next hole after that,

624
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 4: and the next hole after that. And the way that

625
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 4: it manifests itself sometimes is they'll say, oh, that was fun,

626
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 4: and I'll say, what do you mean by fun? I said,

627
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 4: do you mean easy? And they said, oh, no, how

628
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 4: could it be easy? You not go ahead? You put

629
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 4: one hundred and thirty bunkers out here. It's not easy.

630
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: But if we look at it, we see the route

631
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 4: we should go. And a lot of times it happens

632
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 4: when I play golf with them. I don't hit it

633
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 4: very long, but I don't miss many fairways, and I

634
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 4: can go down on one side or the other, and

635
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 4: they say, oh god, you can't hit it out of

636
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 4: your shadow. But I see how you look at the

637
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 4: holes and how you play them. I'm going to try that,

638
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 4: so you know. Unfortunately, I think most times people might

639
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 4: get to a shin a cock and it goes right

640
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 4: over their heads because they're looking at the hay and

641
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 4: the distant views and stuff like that. But there's stuff

642
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 4: out there. And then you know the other thing, Andy,

643
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 4: and and you know this, many of the courses in

644
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 4: the top one hundred don't have a shot value in them.

645
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: They're just in the top one hundred.

646
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean the top one hundred rankings are

647
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: flawed in the sense that it's not really about the

648
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 2: golf course. It's more about the experience, the aesthetics and

649
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: the Yeah, it's the window dressing. Really is that beyond

650
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 2: the experience.

651
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 4: The conditioning, it's it's it's all that stuff. And really

652
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 4: the contest should not be called best New Golf Courses

653
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 4: that that is the wrong name. They should be called

654
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 4: the golf course that was lucky enough to be sighted

655
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 4: on the most ridiculously foolish natural golf terrain ever conceived

656
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 4: by the Lord above.

657
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: Or had enough money to make that.

658
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting. You know, they're the only contests that

659
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 4: compare a you Goo versus against a Ferrari. Yeah, it's so,

660
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 4: but you I couldn't have said it better. You said

661
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 4: it it's all the externals. It's oh god, they came

662
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 4: out with cold towels for us to wipe our face

663
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 4: and put on our neck at the turn. And I mean,

664
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 4: look at most of the evaluation sheets the raiders fill out.

665
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 4: I think on one shot values is twenty percent.

666
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 2: What the hell?

667
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 4: What else is there?

668
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: Well, that's like there's no playability, there's no there. I

669
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: think it's I wrote a whole article about why, you know,

670
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: people shouldn't even pay attention to Golf Digest top one

671
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 2: hundred lists, and it just you know, the the rankings

672
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: would be fine if if it was called the top

673
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: one hundred golf experiences, but they call it the one

674
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: hundred greatest golf courses, and it's it's so it's it's misconstrued.

675
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: I've played a lot of these, a lot of courses

676
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: that are ranked above other courses that I know are

677
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: a lot better. And and but then when you read

678
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: the criteria and you and you start to look at

679
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: and understand the criteria, you understand why certain courses are

680
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 2: ranked in certain spots, and it's because, oh they have

681
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 2: a giant maintenance budget, or they have.

682
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 4: Comfort and history there. You know, that kind of thing.

683
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 4: I had a chance once to speak to a group

684
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 4: of raiders and and so I gave my history of

685
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 4: golf course design, and two funny things happened afterwards. One

686
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 4: was a guy got up and said, you kept using

687
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 4: this this was a raider. You kept using this term

688
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 4: and I've never heard it before. What's a radan?

689
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah?

690
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 4: And then the coordinator of this of the panelists said

691
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 4: to me afterwards, he said, Wow, that was awesome. You

692
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 4: should write a book. And I have to give thee

693
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 4: some of the guys credit and gals because afterwards at

694
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 4: the cocktail how they said, could you give us a

695
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 4: copy of your PowerPoint? And I said, you know, I

696
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 4: really as much as I wanted them to know something

697
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 4: about design so that they for what they did. It

698
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 4: was just fascinating that those were to comment. And so

699
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 4: the next day I attended a seminar where one of

700
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 4: the they had various raiders get up and say, well,

701
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 4: how do you actually do your ratings? And this guy

702
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 4: got up and said, Tom, I'm a three handicap, and

703
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 4: when I rate a course, I bring my son, he's

704
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 4: a plus two, and he brings his wife, she's an eight.

705
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: So that way we get three distinctly different calibers of

706
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 4: golfers evaluating the course.

707
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: Kind of the same bucket.

708
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 4: You can't you can't make you can't make that stuff up.

709
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty awesome. So i'd love to talk a

710
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: little bit about more about Rainer and McDonald. I'm a

711
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 2: huge Rainer fan and we've got a lot of Rainer

712
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: fans that listen, and I would love to hear a

713
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: little bit about what your favorite template hole is of

714
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: all the template holes.

715
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 4: Uh, Andy, I I don't think I can. I don't.

716
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 4: I don't you mean, uh, this hole on this specific course, No,

717
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 4: just in.

718
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: General of like, you know what what overarching strategic you know, uh,

719
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: strategic hole template hole like from a strategy standpoint, or

720
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 2: just the way it sets up, the way it makes

721
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: you think is your favorite?

722
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 4: Wow, that's really really hard, you know. I would say

723
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 4: the the Radan, the Radan at the National, but I

724
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 4: just go out of my mind about the Alps at

725
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 4: the National. I'm really hard pressed. I think what I

726
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 4: really love, Andy, is I love to see the different

727
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 4: versions of the templates. And I think this is really important,

728
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 4: and this is something that's often missed, is that it's

729
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 4: the template holes are not like every rat Dan is

730
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 4: not exactly the same. Maybe more obvious to some people,

731
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 4: every Beirits is not the same. You know, every bes

732
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 4: Beirits is not the full three level Beirits. But I

733
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: think what they did so great was they had their

734
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 4: template holes, and they adapted and adopted them to various

735
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 4: pieces of land. Their goal was not to make each

736
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 4: version of the template exactly the same as every other version.

737
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 4: For example, if you play the seventeenth hole at Point

738
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 4: of Vidra at the Players Club, it's got a certain

739
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 4: look to it, so on and so forth. Well then

740
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 4: you play the seventeenth hole at PGA West, It's got

741
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 4: almost the exact same look to it. Where each radan

742
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 4: is different, each punch bowl is different. You know, when

743
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 4: I'm driving up the driveway, I wonder if they have

744
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 4: a punch bowl, and I wonder if it's a natural

745
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 4: punch bowl where the land was like that, like many

746
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 4: of them are, or is it more a contrived or

747
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 4: constructed punch bowl, which some of them are. So I

748
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 4: think I'm not really answering your question. What my favorite

749
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 4: thing about the templates is is to see how they

750
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 4: are different from course to course. I think that that

751
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 4: is really really fascinating. Look. A great one is Alps.

752
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 4: Look at Alps at the National there is a huge

753
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 4: bunker where you bite off as much as you dare

754
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 4: and then your second shot is blind up to the

755
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 4: top of that hill. Well, that bears no relationship other

756
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 4: than strategically, which is of course mildly important to nuts

757
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 4: like you and me. To the Alps at your acres

758
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 4: or Fox Chapel where there is that bite off bunker

759
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 4: on one side or the other. But at both of

760
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 4: those courses there are mounds where if you bite off

761
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 4: a lot of the bunker you have a view of

762
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 4: the green. If you bail out, there are mounds in

763
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 4: the front and side of the green that block the

764
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 4: view of the green. So there are two completely different

765
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 4: versions of the template. Yes, and it's like each one

766
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 4: of them is very cool.

767
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: It's like Fisher's if you hit it, if you take

768
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 2: on the water down the right side, you get a

769
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 2: small sliver of a view of the green.

770
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very very cool. So I think that's one thing,

771
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 4: and you know it, as you said, it's a real

772
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 4: external thing. When when somebody writes an article and God

773
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 4: bless them the night that Yale was always pictured as

774
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 4: one of the templates. Yeah, or some other really really

775
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 4: famous and maybe more outlandish version of a template is

776
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 4: what is pictured. But again, are there are Alps? I

777
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 4: remember one time we were talking about an Alps and

778
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 4: the guy said, you explained to me what the Alps is.

779
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 4: And he said to me afterwards, a friend of mine,

780
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 4: you have no idea what an Alps is. And I says,

781
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 4: what do you mean? He says, well, what you described

782
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 4: is no relationship to the Alps at the National and

783
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 4: I said, well, forgive me, but the Alps at the

784
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 4: National has no match in other Alps by Rayner and McDonald,

785
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 4: I think what you're missing is the lay of the

786
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 4: land can be. It's not the lay of the land

787
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 4: that really made it, it was how they set it

788
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 4: up strategically. So for me, I think that is the

789
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 4: coolest thing about Rayner and McDonald is the presentation of

790
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 4: each template is different from course to course, and that's

791
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 4: what makes it so much fun. When you're driving up

792
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 4: the driveway, you're saying, I wonder if it's going to

793
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 4: be like the National where I can actually kick a

794
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 4: low shot off that right front corner of the radan

795
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,959
Speaker 4: and have it go kind of diagonally to that tuck

796
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 4: left pin. Well, not all of them work that great

797
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 4: in that regard. The Redan at Fishers doesn't work quite

798
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 4: like that. The Redan at Yeaman's Hall, it isn't quite

799
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 4: like that. But that's what makes them interesting, because it's

800
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 4: just not one golf course repeated seventy five times mm.

801
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 4: Each one has its own interests. I think that is

802
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 4: the nature of their brilliance. And the other thing was

803
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 4: it doesn't appear that what they were doing struck them

804
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 4: as outlandish. They just thought they were building a good

805
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 4: golf course. Whereas today, if I do a lot of

806
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 4: punch bowl greens, people say, well, what the hell is that?

807
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 4: Or a radan I couldn't hold my ball on the green?

808
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 4: Why does it pitch away from the shot? See, today

809
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 4: it appears outlandish. They just they just were going about

810
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 4: their business building cool golf courses that were you know

811
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 4: that we're based on When you go back and you read,

812
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 4: you know, I'm just thrilled if people are able to

813
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 4: recognize a template, if they would ever go back and

814
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 4: read Scotland's Gift and and see how McDonald came up

815
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 4: to selecting the templates. It's just it couldn't be more fascinating.

816
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 2: You know. One of my, uh, my favorite things about

817
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 2: the template holes is exactly what you said, is like,

818
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 2: I remember this winter I played Mountain Lake and driving

819
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 2: in you see the burits and you're like, oh wow,

820
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 2: and and you I think that's one of the things

821
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: people why people love watching the Masters year and year

822
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: out is that they know what's coming.

823
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 4: It's familiar to them, no doubt.

824
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: And an understanding of templates. And and I love like,

825
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 2: you know, when you play a Rainer course, you're you're

826
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: waiting to see what's around the next corner, and you know,

827
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 2: you see these different versions of it, like like Mountain

828
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 2: Lake's road hole is completely different than say Shore Acres

829
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: road hole or National's road hole, and it's it is unique.

830
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,320
Speaker 2: And I think that's where it's so misunderstood is people

831
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: think that it's just, you know, a replica course, but

832
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: it's it's not a replica course in any way.

833
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 4: No, it's it that's a real good connection. Andy. That's

834
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 4: that's what they think it is. And it's it's unquestioned. Uh,

835
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 4: it isn't that. But you know, on the other hand,

836
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 4: you could go to a contemporary course where an architect

837
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 4: copies a hole and it's exactly like the other version.

838
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 4: You know, it hasn't been an adaptation of it. And

839
00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 4: you know, I read an article once where one the

840
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 4: more famous contemporary architects said, well, why would I want

841
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 4: to repeat themes on a golf hole when there are

842
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 4: so many new themes still to be designed or practiced,

843
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 4: And you know, it was just such a ludicrous thing

844
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 4: to say, especially if you investigated the body of work

845
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 4: that you know he's talking about. Yeah, it's hard to

846
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 4: charge two million. It's hard to charge a million or

847
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,240
Speaker 4: two million on a course when you tell the client

848
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 4: I'm going to base this on the work of Rainer

849
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 4: and McDonald's.

850
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: So we got a lot of questions from readers and followers.

851
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: I put out that you were coming on, and so

852
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: I wanted to get to a few of those if sure.

853
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 2: So here's a question. And so everyone seems to and

854
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 2: this is from Michael Wolfe, everyone seems to now agree

855
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: getting back to the GCA principles of nineteen hundred to

856
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties is best for golf and restorations are where

857
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 2: the work is now. He wants to know what about

858
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 2: the hundreds of golf courses, hundreds and thousands of golf

859
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: courses built in the eighties and nineties, and what do

860
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: you do with all them? Like, can these residential courses

861
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 2: that were built with narrow fairways be retrofitted in any way?

862
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 4: Or I think they can? And Andy, you know, we

863
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 4: all have to be those of us who are betrothed

864
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 4: to the nineteen hundreds to nineteen thirties. We have to

865
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 4: admit not everyone that was built in was great. You know,

866
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 4: there were a lot of eighteen steaks on a Sunday

867
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 4: afternoon that were not tremendous golf courses. You know, we

868
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 4: think of a place like Seminole that to me has

869
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 4: the greatest alternating shot shapes of any ross course I've

870
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 4: ever seen, spectacularly well done. I think, the greatest angles

871
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 4: of any ross course I've ever seen. But you know,

872
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 4: Donald and aw and all the rest of the gang,

873
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 4: they didn't do all the courses built. But I think

874
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 4: you can still do a good job even without a

875
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 4: three hundred foot wide card, or you can still well,

876
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 4: let me say, I've worked on those courses. I haven't

877
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 4: seen one where you can't get some twist and turn

878
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 4: in the fairways where you can't get the fairway bunkers

879
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 4: to more significantly impact the twist and turn, where you

880
00:57:54,040 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 4: can't think about angles on the greens. In all honesty,

881
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 4: I think the narrowness of the car is I don't

882
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 4: like it, but I think it's a little bit too

883
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 4: comfortable an excuse to use for why a course couldn't

884
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 4: be made more interesting to play and more fun to play.

885
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: So how would you go about, you know, kind of

886
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 2: working with narrow corridors now that you're kind of awakening.

887
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 2: Say somebody said, hey, we want to bring you back

888
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 2: to one of your courses in the early days where

889
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: you built with narrow fairways.

890
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 4: Well, I am I would still if I went back

891
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 4: to one of my courses where my fairways are thirty

892
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 4: yards wide, I would still put bunkers in that. There's

893
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 4: always room in the original tree planting to let a

894
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 4: bunker stick into the fairway, say on the hook side,

895
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 4: and let it swing out more and narrow the amount

896
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 4: of rough until you get to the trees, so you

897
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 4: get that sinewy type. I guess, I guess that's one

898
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 4: of the first things I think about. I was just

899
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 4: doing it the other day on Google Earth, where someone

900
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 4: had called me and I looked at their golf course,

901
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 4: and I was already trying to think of how I

902
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 4: could get more movement. Now, Andy, I don't mean movement

903
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 4: like contour mowing, where the fairway is thirty five yards

904
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 4: wide for the shortest hitter, twenty yards wide for the

905
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 4: guy who hits a two twenty and then ten yards wide,

906
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 4: that thing from the eighties and the early nineties. I

907
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 4: mean a fairly consistent with the fairway that just twists

908
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 4: and turns on its way to the green. So I

909
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 4: think you can do it in narrow carridors and narrow fairways.

910
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 4: And because usually when I did narrow fairways, I had

911
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 4: a good amount of rough, and I would see some

912
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 4: of that rough being converted to fairway.

913
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, widening out. I think that's a good strategy, is

914
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: getting turning a lot of the rough into fairway and getting.

915
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 4: A little week I said that I would not mention

916
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 4: names of golf courses that I work on, because it's

917
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 4: kind of the club's business, and I know that's what

918
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 4: everybody likes to do. When I worked at so and so,

919
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 4: and I worked and such and such, but we worked

920
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 4: at a nineteen sixties designed golf course on Long Island

921
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 4: last year, and I would say one of the main

922
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 4: things we did was turn the angle of the bunkers

923
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 4: and make the fairways bigger and there was room to

924
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 4: do the twist and turn. And I would say that

925
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 4: they range between pleasantly surprised to completely stunned how they

926
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 4: have to think on their golf course now. It was

927
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 4: just the typical sixties golf course, dead straight fairway edges

928
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 4: and bunkers that were parallel to the center line and

929
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 4: never impact play. So I think you can do it

930
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 4: even in narrow card is. Obviously you can't do it

931
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 4: as well, but you can still get that feel of

932
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 4: the flow.

933
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that it makes sense. It's so David Grady

934
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 2: wants to know how kind of renovation and restoration has

935
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 2: evolved over the past twenty years.

936
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 4: Well for me, you know, it's hard for me to

937
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 4: speak for everyone. You know, I've never been the mouthpiece

938
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 4: for the craft, but I would say at the very

939
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 4: least there appears to be more appreciation for as a

940
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 4: first step trying to determine what that golf course was

941
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 4: like originally and then seeing what of that you could

942
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 4: emphasize in your work and what to me, if this

943
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 4: is an older course, what vintage of character, what vintage

944
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 4: characteristics you could put into the course and put them

945
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 4: in in a manner that people think that they were

946
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:32,439
Speaker 4: always there if they weren't there originally. So I think

947
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 4: there's a little bit more appreciation for what might have

948
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 4: been there originally today. I think there's a little bit

949
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 4: more appreciation for what was there originally and what may

950
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 4: have been taken out. But you know, you still hear

951
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 4: about this course or that course fill in the blank

952
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 4: here designed by a golden age architect, that the club

953
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 4: is not entirely appreciative of that, and who they hire

954
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 4: is not totally appreciative of that, and they get a

955
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 4: course in the fill in the architect's name mode. So

956
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 4: I think folks like you and me, Andy, who like

957
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 4: that stuff, think that it's everywhere and it's it's fire

958
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 4: from everywhere.

959
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 2: Yet, So, what what's the course that you'd like to

960
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 2: see host a major championship that hasn't or isn't hosting

961
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 2: major championships?

962
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 4: Oh boy, I Andy, I I don't know off the

963
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 4: top of my head. You know, I'm trying to kind

964
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 4: of factor in. I'm kind of trying to factor in, uh,

965
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 4: the way they set up these major championships. You know,

966
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 4: I find it interesting that, you know, the major golf

967
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 4: associations pick some of these out of the box sites

968
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 4: that kind of don't fit into the wing foot Oakmont,

969
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 4: Southern Hills, Pebble Beach, you know what I mean, the

970
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 4: typical ROTA, and and they pick them five years before

971
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 4: they play them, and then they spend three or five

972
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 4: million dollars getting the course ready for the event. There's

973
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 4: a degree of standardization that I get discomforted by. I'm

974
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 4: not doing very good naming courses that I think should

975
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 4: be uh, you know, major sites.

976
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 1: It's okay, it's a question.

977
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 2: I always always think about it. Yeah, but one of

978
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 2: the big problems is the ball. You know, it goes

979
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 2: just too far for a lot of these courses. And

980
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 2: then you also combined the infrastructure needed.

981
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 4: You know, it's really the it's the great shame of

982
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 4: the game that it's broken into two armed camps. There's

983
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 4: a camp that loves the game of golf, and unfortunately

984
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 4: that's the small camp now. And there's a camp that

985
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 4: loves the business of golf, and the camp in the

986
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 4: business of golf has so directly or indirectly intimidated the

987
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 4: ruling bodies of golf that they won't take the step

988
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 4: that is absolutely essential, and that is to slow down

989
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 4: the ball. It's really a shame. It's the game's unfinest moment. Yeah,

990
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 4: that this continues.

991
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 2: I was out at Skochy yesterday. I was walking with

992
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 2: a guy and he was like, man, how great would

993
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 2: it be to see a major championship at this place?

994
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 2: And It's like, it would be great. The greens are

995
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: unbelieve but you can't because the ball just goes too far.

996
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 4: I think that's part of my answer of my inability

997
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 4: to answer the question. There are dozens and dozens of

998
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 4: courses like Skokie that I would love to see if

999
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 4: we could just turn the clock back to the late

1000
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 4: sixties and the players had to hit into a green.

1001
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 4: What Nicholas and players like that were hitting into a green?

1002
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 4: That would be my dream to see that happen. But

1003
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 4: you know that will never happen, And so that makes

1004
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 4: it hard for me to answer which one would you

1005
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 4: like to see a major event at? Because I'd like

1006
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 4: to see a major event at hundreds of them, but

1007
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 4: not with today's equipment. Yeah, I believe that. I believe

1008
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 4: that working the ball is part of the game, and

1009
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 4: I'm going to go to my grave thinking it should

1010
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 4: be part of the game. And like on the tour,

1011
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 4: now it's not. It's just power golf. But I think

1012
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 4: a guy standing up on a tee reading the hole

1013
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 4: and saying I want to cut this one, or standing

1014
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 4: up on the tee and I want to turn this

1015
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 4: the other way, and and here's an angle of a green.

1016
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 4: I can fail positively by hitting a fade, because if

1017
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 4: I fail to hit a fade and hit it straight,

1018
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 4: I'm putting. It's a longer put. But if I am

1019
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 4: a successful hitting a fade, I'm putting for birdie. So

1020
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 4: the equipment thing is just just overwhelming. I mean, I

1021
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 4: have clients say to me, why are you worried about

1022
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 4: the angles and and this stuff? These these young kids

1023
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 4: and our good players, they never even think about that.

1024
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 4: And I say, well, I think we still should think

1025
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 4: about it, and we should try to, you know, make

1026
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 4: it a part of their game as much as it's

1027
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 4: a part of players who don't hit it as far.

1028
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 4: And I think the restoration thing is maybe refining itself

1029
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 4: a little to either moving some bunkers down a fairway

1030
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:17,440
Speaker 4: so that the original intent of the design is recaptured,

1031
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 4: or maybe adding a few more bunkers in the correct

1032
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 4: style so the original intent, the intent of the original

1033
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 4: design is captured. Because just if you think of it, andy,

1034
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 4: just taking a plan or having an old aerial and

1035
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 4: putting the bunkers back the fairway, bunkers back exactly where they.

1036
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 2: Are, isn't Yeah, I had people.

1037
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 4: I've had people say to me, are you really restoring

1038
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 4: the intent of the original design? And I have to

1039
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 4: I have to admit they make a good point.

1040
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I agree with that because like the tents,

1041
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 2: intent's been lost with a lot of the technology, so

1042
01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 2: you'd need to move bunkers into different places in order

1043
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:01,679
Speaker 2: to regain that intent.

1044
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 4: And see, that's why I think that one of the

1045
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 4: more important rules about design is sit down and breathe

1046
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 4: deeply and think a little bit about it. Sometimes it's

1047
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,759
Speaker 4: right to put original bunkers back exactly where they were,

1048
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:28,480
Speaker 4: but to just stick on that goal probably doesn't restore

1049
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 4: the original intent of play. Just like go into an

1050
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 4: old course and saying, ah, this place is old, I'm

1051
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 4: just going to do the modern thing here. That probably

1052
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:44,639
Speaker 4: is too quick of a knee jerk reaction, you know,

1053
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 4: just like the players who need to think for that

1054
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 4: five seconds we determined standing on a tee, the guys

1055
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 4: with the pencils in their hands need to think for

1056
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 4: a few minutes. Where does some of the original stuff

1057
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:04,720
Speaker 4: work in terms of bunker placement? And look, if I

1058
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 4: could do a course a third and eighth a tenth

1059
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 4: as good as any of the Golden Ages, I'd be

1060
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 4: very proud of myself. But I don't think it's wrong

1061
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 4: to say that original set of bunkers just doesn't work

1062
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 4: for the modern game. Is there a net? And then

1063
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 4: the job becomes how can I find a natural spot?

1064
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 4: Because a lot of times they were placing their bunkers

1065
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 4: in nice natural spots for bunkers where there were up

1066
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 4: slopes where they could just cut a hole in the ground.

1067
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 4: It became a good bunker. It didn't look artificial, It

1068
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 4: looked like it's set into the landscape. Is there a

1069
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 4: spot where I can recreate that same feel by putting

1070
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 4: it into an upslope, whether the grade works or can

1071
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 4: I build an up slope that when it's grassed people

1072
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 4: will think it was always there.

1073
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:59,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would that nothing looks better than natural bunkers.

1074
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 2: And so we do this.

1075
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 4: My test, my test for my guy and the bulldozer

1076
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 4: is I just say to him and they laugh. Now

1077
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 4: they're used to it, but I say, is that a

1078
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 4: comfortable bunker? And I say, what do you mean? I said, well,

1079
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:21,839
Speaker 4: does that? And you know, you go to these courses

1080
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 4: where bunkers have been added further down holes, or you

1081
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 4: go to courses built in the sixties what I call

1082
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 4: the age of golf course engineering rather than golf course architecture.

1083
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 4: But it continues today. There are people who still follow

1084
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 4: that inspiration of the sixties. They may disguise it by

1085
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 4: ripping the edges of their bunkers, but they're still basically

1086
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 4: sixties golf courses. You know, fade bunkers are all the

1087
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 4: exact same distance from the tee. Hook bunkers are all

1088
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 4: the exact same distance from the tee. And you'll see

1089
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,120
Speaker 4: some of these bunkers where they're built on a reverse slope.

1090
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 4: That reverse slope just happened to be the right distance

1091
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 4: from the tee. And you know, there's a berm that's

1092
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 4: twelve feet high behind the bunker holding it up. Hopefully,

1093
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,439
Speaker 4: if you're working in a restorative manner, you can get

1094
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 4: a comfortable bunker. Or I'll say to the guys, does

1095
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 4: that bunker look like it's supposed to be there? I

1096
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 4: think that's the other thing. It's not only put in

1097
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 4: the bunker in the same spot that the Golden Ager

1098
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,680
Speaker 4: had it on the plan, or putting it in a

1099
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 4: spot that has the same impact on the whole is

1100
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:49,879
Speaker 4: what the Golden Ager was thinking. It's can you detail

1101
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 4: it so it looks like it's been there for a

1102
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 4: long time and wasn't built three weeks ago last Tuesday?

1103
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, naturalness. So we have this segment that we wrap

1104
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 2: up these podcasts with called Overrated, Underrated and all. We'll

1105
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 2: give you a couple of topics and you just say

1106
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 2: if you think that are overrated or underrated, and you

1107
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 2: can give like a quick, short kind of.

1108
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 4: Explanation as to your answer, Andy, you haven't been listening

1109
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 4: if you think I can give a quick and short explanation.

1110
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 4: But I'm gonna try my best.

1111
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:33,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so Herbert Strong the architect.

1112
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 4: Oh, I'll be honest with you. I'm gonna go in

1113
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 4: between overrated and underrated.

1114
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 2: You're going properly.

1115
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:48,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would. I would just say he's an in between.

1116
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,599
Speaker 4: You know, That's what I think.

1117
01:13:53,080 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 2: Okay, grass bunkers, I.

1118
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 4: Think they're a little overrated. I have a lot I

1119
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 4: have clubs. I have clubs that want to convert sand

1120
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:19,560
Speaker 4: bunkers into grass bunkers, and in most of the situations

1121
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 4: where they want to do that, it's not an even

1122
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 4: trade visually or strategically or helping players recognize the angles

1123
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 4: and so forth. You know, there's been a lot of

1124
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 4: I'm going to there's just one more paragraph. There's a

1125
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 4: lot of talk about bunkers today, maintenance costs and all

1126
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff. But they're a part of golf,

1127
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:46,720
Speaker 4: and I'm not sure that everyone can be replaced by

1128
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,599
Speaker 4: either a tree or a grass bunker.

1129
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:54,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that. I do like grass bunkers.

1130
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,840
Speaker 2: I think that are they're really tough for the good player,

1131
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,519
Speaker 2: and they're a little bit more playable than regular bunkers

1132
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 2: for the average and beginner.

1133
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:10,719
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it's just it they're positioning and maybe

1134
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 4: they're part of a bunker group or something like that

1135
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 4: is kind of an important thing to consider.

1136
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, So how about the blind t shot.

1137
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 4: It's dramatically underrated. It makes me insane how the degree

1138
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 4: to which they're rejected and considered a bad thing. And

1139
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 4: I would say the same thing for the blind shot

1140
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 4: to agree. It makes me crazy that they are so

1141
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 4: rejected and disliked. It's a shot in golf. I got

1142
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 4: to tell you Andy, when I reviewed. When I read

1143
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 4: a review of a course that starts out with this

1144
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 4: is a great course. Everything is right out in front

1145
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 4: of you, I rarely finish the review. I never have

1146
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 4: any interest in seeing that course.

1147
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:05,639
Speaker 2: You like to have a little bit of a thrill.

1148
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 2: And there's that feel of a blind shot or rolling

1149
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:13,600
Speaker 2: up to like a punch bowl green that's blind on

1150
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 2: an alpsole and wondering where your ball is that can't

1151
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 2: be replaced.

1152
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:23,760
Speaker 4: No, tell me that. When you're walking and you hit

1153
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 4: a shot to a blind green that's a punch bowl.

1154
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 4: You don't throw the iron back in the bag and

1155
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 4: then double time it up the hill. Yeah, Or if

1156
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 4: you're forced to, you get in the cart and you

1157
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 4: don't floor it to get around the corner. Two or

1158
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 4: three years ago, four years ago, I went to southern

1159
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,519
Speaker 4: Scotland and I played a course called Nairn that has

1160
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 4: about twenty blind shots. It is one of my five

1161
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 4: favorite golf courses in the world. It was unbelievably great,

1162
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 4: and I would think that most people would say, and

1163
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:04,080
Speaker 4: it's only because I love blind shots that that that

1164
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 4: that's not a good thing. You know, you got to

1165
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:08,679
Speaker 4: love it. If it's a blind shot to a green,

1166
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 4: more often than not, there's some degree of punch bowl

1167
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 4: character to one side or all of the green, and

1168
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,479
Speaker 4: so a hack like me, I can miss the green

1169
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 4: and it ends up twelve feet from the pins. See,

1170
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 4: that's one thing that we've forgotten. Golf is supposed to

1171
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 4: be fun, and I think blind shots are wicked fun.

1172
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,719
Speaker 2: It's yeah, I like blind shots.

1173
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 4: I'm a fan, and I can't believe the percentage of

1174
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,720
Speaker 4: better drives I hit on a blind shot because I

1175
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 4: have to concentrate. You're making yourself concentrate so much more

1176
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 4: on somehow picking a line, And I would say, more

1177
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 4: often than not, I hit one of my better drives

1178
01:17:56,360 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 4: of the day because it's made me focus. There's nothing

1179
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 4: wrong with something that makes you hit one of your

1180
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 4: better drives of the day.

1181
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:14,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. What about ocean and water views.

1182
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,480
Speaker 4: I think they could not be more spectacularly overrated.

1183
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 2: I agree, I think they take they take away from

1184
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 2: the architecture. They're awesome when combined with great architecture, but

1185
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 2: they make average holes very perceived great.

1186
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 4: Right before I take my last breath, somebody's gonna hand

1187
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 4: me a piece of paper, and it's a rating of

1188
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 4: pebble beach that got after the course got moved fifty

1189
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 4: miles inland.

1190
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:48,880
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be as good.

1191
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:53,520
Speaker 4: Huh, Well, I would think it might be different. Yeah,

1192
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 4: but I feel that way about you know, courses set

1193
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 4: at the base of mountain, uh, set in sand dunes

1194
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 4: and stuff like that. I And I know they can't

1195
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:09,559
Speaker 4: do it. I know they can't. I know it's too

1196
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:11,719
Speaker 4: hard to do. And I'm not even being a wise guy,

1197
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 4: But if the raiders just looked at the tops of

1198
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 4: the t's, the tops of the fairways, the tops of

1199
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 4: the greens and the ankles, and the variety that they

1200
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 4: introduced into the round of golf, I'd like to see

1201
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:28,240
Speaker 4: the ratings in those circumstances.

1202
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 2: I'm curious. I played Fisher's Island in Chicago Golf in

1203
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 2: a week span for the first time on each of them.

1204
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:39,639
Speaker 2: How would you compare the two of.

1205
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 4: Those, Oh, I'm I. I don't like to directly compare. Ye,

1206
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 4: And if if you were gonna, if you if you

1207
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 4: told me that you were, how how did you want

1208
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 4: to play golf at me, at my at my selection?

1209
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 4: Out of the those two, I would tell you to

1210
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:03,679
Speaker 4: pick me up at O'Hare.

1211
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I feel the same. So I think,

1212
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 2: like I always look at these courses and if I

1213
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,959
Speaker 2: have to compare, is like dividing, you know, dividing ten rounds.

1214
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 2: How would I would divide ten rounds? And I've thought

1215
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,599
Speaker 2: about that one more than almost anyone. And I think

1216
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 2: I'd go six or six four or seven three Chicago Golf.

1217
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:30,839
Speaker 4: I would just say, pick me up at O'Hare.

1218
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 2: Andy, that place is one of the most architecturally sound

1219
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,800
Speaker 2: golf courses I've ever seen. Probably ever, it probably is

1220
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:42,720
Speaker 2: the most.

1221
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:47,160
Speaker 4: And and and when nuts like you and I say

1222
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:51,960
Speaker 4: things like that, we should say, and it's on a

1223
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:56,120
Speaker 4: non descript site, is that correct?

1224
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it. I think it's I think the

1225
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 2: site that is on is underrated. I think people say

1226
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:06,120
Speaker 2: it's a bad site, but it's a pretty good site.

1227
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 4: But you know, relative to these other world fare sites.

1228
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:15,640
Speaker 2: Andy, relative deficientcy Island. Yeah, that has water views on

1229
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:16,240
Speaker 2: every whole.

1230
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:21,559
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah so. And that's another thing that

1231
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,719
Speaker 4: I find interesting is someone will go to a course,

1232
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 4: well it's not much of a course, and I said, well,

1233
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 4: what do you mean. He said, well, the site, it's

1234
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 4: just flat. I think sin Andrew's a fairly strategic golf course.

1235
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 4: There's nothing really special about that site. I think the

1236
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 4: site is too often an easy excuse on flat land.

1237
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 4: I honestly can't figure out why for Arda doesn't have

1238
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:47,719
Speaker 4: five hundred great golf courses.

1239
01:21:49,200 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 2: Well. I think the thing I noticed is you can

1240
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 2: really tell the skill of an architect with how they

1241
01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:59,679
Speaker 2: what they do with flat land, like.

1242
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 4: No doubt you. I won't try to say it better,

1243
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 4: you just said it great. And I think too often

1244
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:14,480
Speaker 4: things like well the developer wanted this, well, the developer

1245
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:18,920
Speaker 4: wanted a hired penal golf course while the land was flat.

1246
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 4: I just think sometimes they're excuses that are too convenient

1247
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:29,759
Speaker 4: because you're on a flat piece of land. These holes

1248
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:33,519
Speaker 4: I'm talking about at Shinnecock, they're unrelatively flat piece a

1249
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 4: flat piece of land, and they're great golf courses because

1250
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 4: they have the angles and the strategy. And in Florida

1251
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 4: you could do any degree of angles, any amount of

1252
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:48,440
Speaker 4: sinewy fair way, the green angles could be anything. And basically,

1253
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 4: what do you see. There's a fade bunker at a

1254
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 4: certain distance, there's a hook bunker at a certain distance,

1255
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 4: and then at the green there's a green or a

1256
01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 4: bunker at three o'clock, nine o'clock and twelve o'clock. Well,

1257
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 4: they're just, they're just they're golf course engineering and not

1258
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 4: golf course design.

1259
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 2: It goes to your whole adage of when it was developed.

1260
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 2: It was developed. Those courses were developed from nineteen fifty,

1261
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 2: primarily nineteen fifty through nineteen ninety five.

1262
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was the age of golf course engineering.

1263
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:26,240
Speaker 2: Yep, not architecture.

1264
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:31,000
Speaker 4: So no, you could never you could never say that

1265
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 4: it was. It was let's slap it in quick and

1266
01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:36,880
Speaker 4: get to the next victim.

1267
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:42,439
Speaker 2: Yep. So, Brian, I really appreciate the time, and that

1268
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:44,160
Speaker 2: was a lot of fun. We'll have to do it

1269
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:47,479
Speaker 2: again sometime. I feel like we only touched on about

1270
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:50,000
Speaker 2: ten percent of the topics I wanted to get to.

1271
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, my answers that go on and on forever will

1272
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:56,800
Speaker 4: limit the amount of questions, so I'll just tell you

1273
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 4: one thing. I'll be looking at that phone call to

1274
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:02,719
Speaker 4: telling me when I should get to O'Hare to play

1275
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 4: the course I chose over the one that's on the island.

1276
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 2: I'll be uh, I'll be trying to figure out when

1277
01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:11,679
Speaker 2: I can get out there again.

1278
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 4: All right, big guy, Hey, good talking to you. Thank you.