1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Oh all right, well Joe started, I like these interests 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: of getting shorter every time we've bend it onto one syllable, 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: So there's not much we can go fee there. You 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: know what, an honest and honest man only needs one syllable, 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: sometimes less, sometimes half a syllable. We'll eventually get this 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: down to just grunts. That's really what I'm moving towards 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: is an entirely shouldn't we be moving towards like telepathy? Yeah, telepathy. 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: We don't even record a podcast where we just like 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: put up transmit the information instantaneously, just a blank audio 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: file that says, now, think about farming. I sa that 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: that sounds very Um, that sounds very sci fi. And 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: that's my way of doing a slick segue here, because 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: today we will be talking and I'm very excited to 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: talk about this. Um. She's one of my favorite authors. Um. 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: You know, I really enjoyed discussing The idea is present 16 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: in Huxley's work, but this one has a special place 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: in my heart. Today we'll be taking a look at 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: Octavia Butler's parable of the sewer and parable of the talents, 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: and the idea is present within. Yes, back at you 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: again with another podcast banger. But first of all, UM, Hi, 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew UM sometimes known as st Andrew. I'm kind 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: of trying to rebrand as something else, still figuring that out, UM, 23 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: and you can find me on YouTube at st Andrewism. 24 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: But this episode is not about me and my branding. 25 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: This episode is about Octavia Butler bo and growing up 26 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: in segregation y America. She became an award winning sci 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: fi water UM with a lot of influences and a 28 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: lot of themes and ideas being covered in her work. 29 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: Considering the very white, male dominated scene that is sci fi, 30 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: the fact that she was able to not only break 31 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: into it but also presents some things that I haven't 32 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: been explored before, with angles that haven't really been explored before. UM. Really, 33 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: U has touched a lot of people. She was somewhat 34 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: after a futurist, but she was also very much UM. 35 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: A lot of her stories really blended UM. A lot 36 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: of people have a lot of different backgrounds and and 37 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: and histories, and she always managed to work aspects of 38 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: herself into her main characters. UM. She was a big 39 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: critic of hierarchies, which really draws me to her and UM. 40 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: She also relatively has at times struggled with writer's block 41 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: and depression. She rode over two dozen essays, speeches, short stories, 42 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: and novels and her time on this earth. But unfortunately 43 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: she had a stroke and died in two thousand and six. 44 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: One of the or other two of the books that 45 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 1: have had the most of whos that have had the 46 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: most impact on me. And of course I haven't read 47 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,279 Speaker 1: her entire bibliography yet, but I hope to get to it. 48 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: Um is part of the sewer right, and you know, 49 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have heard about it again, 50 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: a lot more relevance UM after you know, as kind 51 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: of patash. We continue to accelerate as you know, we 52 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: drew closer to the year that the book is set in, 53 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: and regard to the second book, as we had you know, 54 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Trump come into office. Um. And I'll get into why 55 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: that's relevant in a bit. In the first book, just 56 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: to give a brief synopsis, global climate change and economic 57 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: crisis has let's a whole set of social crisis and 58 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: chaos in the early twenties. Um. The book is set 59 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: in California and they are struggling with pervasive water shortages 60 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: and masses of poor people will do basically anything to 61 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: live to see another day. Everybody is struggling, so basically today, 62 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: in this setting, fifteen year old Lauren Lamina lives inside 63 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: a gated community with her preacher father, family and neighbors, 64 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: sheltered somewhat from the surrounding chaos. However, when we hear 65 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: gated community, now we think of, you know, like really 66 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: rich people, but in this case, gated community is just 67 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: like a regular community that had to put up a 68 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: bunch of walls to prevent like pyramid acts from like reading, 69 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: it's like it's a suburb that used to be like 70 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: a well off suburb, but as things got worse, it 71 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: just turned into people hiding behind their walls because they 72 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: were scared of poor folks, right, Like it's there's an 73 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: element of it that almost reads like a slasher movie 74 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: in the opening of the book, which is one of 75 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: the things that's really compelling about it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 76 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: they really Um. She really gets you invested in the setting, 77 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: in the character early on, and part of what really 78 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: gets you invested in Lauren as a protagonist is the 79 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: fact that she suffers from a unique vulnerability or strength, 80 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it. Um oftentimes vulnerability, 81 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: and that is hyper empathy syndrome, which is basically but 82 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: she's able to feel others emotions, others pains. So when 83 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: others are very very sad, she feels very very sad. 84 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: When others are in pe and she feels that seame 85 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: excruciating pin um hm and so on and so forth. 86 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: And so she has to find sort of navigate this 87 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: chaosk food while dealing with this UM, with this um 88 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: disorder that she's struggling with. At the same time, though, 89 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: she's also navigating faith and the ideal of faith and 90 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: philosophy because her father is like a preacher and he 91 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: is the preacher of their little gated community, and so 92 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: she has grown up in the church, but she also 93 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: has found issues in UM, the religion that she grew 94 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: up in places where she thinks it is sort of 95 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: lead people a straight And that's kind of also what 96 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: is drawn me to Lauren as a character, because I too, 97 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, have had to negotiate to navigate that whole 98 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: religious realm. And so that's basically the setting she's in 99 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: this community UM. It's chaos on the outside. She's not 100 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: gating her high per empathy syndrome, and she's also dealing 101 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: with the ideas of religion and change and so and 102 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: so forth. So as she's there um sort of thinking internally, 103 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: she's keeping this Juno and she's developing this new system 104 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: of thought which he calls earth Seed, and we're gonna 105 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: get into good Seed. But it basically shapes uh the 106 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: decisions that she makes and the outcome of both books, 107 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: and as well as how they progress throughout. The second 108 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: book places her in and really trying not to spoil, 109 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: which is difficult to do because the second book Lea 110 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: is directly after the first book and so and so forth. 111 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: But I'll try to speak in broad brushes because I 112 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: really think people should go and read it as blind 113 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: as possible. Um Lauren. Of course, eventually we will get 114 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: into spoilers, by the way, so I'll try to let 115 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: folks know when we get into that. But in the 116 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: second book, um Lauren is working on a community um 117 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: founded on her faith earth Seed, and they begin to 118 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: face persecution. I'll see after the election of this ultra 119 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: conservative president who vows to quote make America great again. 120 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: Being you know, a young black woman in a minority 121 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: religious faction in the United States of America. UM. Her 122 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: colony becomes a target of President Jared's reign of terror. UM. 123 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: And at the same time, Lauren's future daughter is navigating 124 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: the discovery of the mother that she didn't knew, that 125 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: she didn't know through the journals that her mother kept 126 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: through the years. And I think I'll leave it at that. 127 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: There are a lot of themes that you know, Butler 128 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: covers in these texts, UM, and in fact, I've seen 129 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: them described as but Lerian, which I would agree with, 130 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: because she covers them in other books of Who's as 131 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: well in different ways. UM. She talks about poverty and 132 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: slavery and freedom, just what perseverance. She navigates the this 133 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: idea of community and what community means, what how community 134 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: is both a balance of inclusion and exclusion at the 135 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: same time, and also the whole cycle of creation, destruction, 136 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: and rebirth that really defines human history right now, Well, 137 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: in that books, in the setting of that book, UM, 138 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: slavery has made a comeback more than it already has. 139 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: You know, you have these extreme forms of death slavery 140 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: and marital slavery, and probably even plantation slavery. UM. I 141 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: believe plantation slavery is mentioned in the second book. Um, 142 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: and of course the slavery is inflicted upon the poor, 143 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: particular a lot of company town style slavery right, where 144 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: people are like bonded, bound to a specific location because 145 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: of their employer, who protects them in this increasingly dangerous, 146 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: banded filled world. Yeah, exactly. And in this world, you know, 147 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: race remains a factor. Even though these books are written 148 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties. I believe Parabolos overs three 149 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: and people right again like He's got or Butler has 150 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: a character using the same phrase. Trump would win the 151 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: president say, on, um, what is it twenty four years 152 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: before the start of his campaign. Um. Hard to overstate 153 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: the degree to which she was ahead of the curve 154 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: on a lot of things, because I mean, to be fair, 155 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: she knew America. You know, she grew up in segregation, 156 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: your America. She had to deal with her mother was 157 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: a domestic liberal, and so she had to go in 158 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: with her mother in these rich white families places through 159 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: the back door. Um. And you know, obviously that would 160 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: have shaped how she saw herself and herself in relation 161 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: to the wider world through to America as an idea, 162 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: and so I think that as she's writing of this 163 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, sort of horrific future, she's drawing a lot 164 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: from the horrific past, or rather America's horrific past, of 165 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: which her history is of heart. So Lauren, who is 166 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: in some ways Octavia but herself inside Um, spends a 167 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: lot of time in the book. In both books, allying 168 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: with people who are also minorities, who come from mixed backgrounds, 169 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: people who tend to be overlooked by the dominant Christian 170 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: religious right white um order, because I believe she finds 171 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: some sense of safety and strength in people who have 172 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: been so aligned slavery. Also ends up affecting Lawrence community too, 173 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: Um in many ways that I don't want to spoil. 174 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: But despite it all, the theme of perseverance is really 175 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: what carries the story alone. Lauren ultimately is the archetype 176 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: of the persevera. You know, she preaches a sermon and 177 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: the importance of perseverance. She tries to get others to 178 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: see the importance of hard work, and she sticks to 179 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: her goals no matter what happens, and a lot happens 180 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: that would quite honestly discourage a lot of people, to 181 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: put it lightly, and yet she perseveres, and so let's 182 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: tie that in as well to American history. Particularly in 183 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: the first book, she ends up having to make a 184 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: journey north um to northern California, and throughout that journey, 185 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, she meets with other people and interacts with 186 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the people, She makes allies and avoids enemies, and you 187 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: can honestly draw some parallels to the underground real Road. 188 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: Of course it's not an exact one to one, but 189 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: in the sense of having to work with people along 190 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: the way to progress out of a terrible situation, a 191 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: hellish situation for the hoop, not the guarantee, but the 192 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: hoop of some form of salvation when you get to 193 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: the end of the journey. She doesn't do it to Lune. 194 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: She does it with others um and that's kind of 195 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: what keeps her hoop alive. But it's not just externals. 196 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: She has a lot of intrinsic motivation to persevere, which 197 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: is driven by her philosophy. I mean, I think one 198 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: of the things, because there's there's a lot of meaning 199 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: and why she picks the parable of the sower in 200 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: the parable of the talents for and it's it's pretty 201 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: obvious and necessary next of the books, it's She's not 202 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: like hiding it under layers or anything. But one of 203 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: the things that in particular the second book deals with, um, 204 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: I mean in the first book to do a degree 205 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:01,239 Speaker 1: is kind of the the pointlessness of responding to dystopian 206 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: change in society by just like hunkering down in a 207 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: bunker and trying to hide from it and protect your 208 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: family like that. One of the reoccurring themes is the 209 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: degree to which that doesn't work. And one of the 210 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: things that's really interesting about this is a dystopian novel. 211 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: Um this is a novel that is, both of these 212 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: novels are kind of imagining the collapse of a lot 213 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: of aspects of American society, but it is not. At 214 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: no point does the United States really collapse in these books. 215 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: And and even like as much as authoritarianism is present, 216 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: at no point is the government completely taken over and 217 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: completely under the control of like a unified fascist regime 218 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: or anything. Like. Elections are still happen in company elections 219 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: going on the piece, but you know, you said have 220 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: to pay them to, you know, And and the the 221 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: like Christian death squad type things that are roaming around 222 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: are distinctly non state actors they have backing to as 223 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: an extent from the state. They're not really opposed by it, 224 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: but it's it's it's again, it's this thing that we 225 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: we are actually dealing with where collapse doesn't look like okay, 226 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: everything's fallen apart, and now it's whoever's got the strongest 227 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: group of buddies, who can who can you know, do 228 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: their best in the waste land. It's like no, no, no. 229 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: It is about groups of people trying to navigate in 230 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: an increasingly dysfunctional state. And the only way to actually 231 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: survive that is um Survival is complicated, and it's never 232 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: as simple as just like picking a good farm to 233 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: hide on. You know that that's that's not going to 234 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: work out for you exactly. I just want to point 235 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: out as well, that's as just functional as things. People 236 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: are still going to work, not just the people who 237 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: are you know, in company talent or in debt bondage, 238 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: but even Lawrence father, you know, he takes his bike 239 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: every d and rides out into that chaos to go 240 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: on work for a weege to come back and to 241 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: try to support his family. And of course in this 242 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: kid community, we see that the attempts to see gated. 243 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's also a few tile like the rich 244 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: have their high security communities and be able to escape 245 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: in helicopters when anything happens, but they have no security 246 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: even in this illusion of security and not huntering down 247 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: strategy they were taken wasn't working. In the first half 248 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: of the book really shows why. Yeah, it's um, it's 249 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: it's a it's a book about collapse by somebody who's 250 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: uh who, who grew up in a situation where her 251 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: her childhood had a lot of elements of the collapse 252 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: that many particularly like many folks are concerned about now, 253 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: Like that's what she grew up in was there's no 254 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: there's no protection, violence can come from all sides, and 255 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: it's random. Um, and you have no there are no 256 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: guarantees in this like world that you've come into, Which 257 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: is this thing that like people are freaking out about 258 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: now as we encounter kind of aspects of the the 259 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: world order that we had grown up with that we 260 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: feel like are falling apart. And I think the thing 261 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: that's so compelling about Butler is her books kind of 262 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: are coming from the perspective of someone for whom that 263 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: order and that world were never real. Yeah. Yeah, And 264 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: that's why her contributions to sci fi is so valuable, 265 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: you know, because all of these sci fi writes it's 266 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: just like regular privileged white Kays and you know, and 267 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: and they just come with that experience. And this isn't 268 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: often um repeated critique of sci fi. UM you see, 269 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: didn't tweet to themselves sometimes, where like a lot of 270 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: it is just like particularly like a literally did sci 271 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: fi is like whoa, what if the things that white 272 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: people did other people happen to white people? You know, 273 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: like this whole idea that these alien invasion um fears 274 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: an alien invasion story to just like what if clualism 275 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: but too white people to rich countries, you know. M hm. 276 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: Another part of the reason that the attempt to hunker 277 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: down and stuff and basically exclude others from their community 278 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: failed is because and Lauren rights this in her diary, 279 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: exclusion breeds resentment among the excluded. So even though Lawrence neighborhood, 280 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: while you know, gated and wall and stuff, was not 281 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: particularly rich, just the mere fact that they had those 282 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: walls up basically signaled to the outside world that they 283 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: had something to hide some sort of resources they wanted 284 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: to safeguard, even if the only thing they had to 285 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: safeguard with themselves because a lot of the members of 286 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: the community were you know, unemployed and extremely poor, that 287 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: alone sort of symbolized, uh sort of. It was sort 288 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: of a beacon um drawing people to eventually UM attack. 289 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: And that's a slight spoiler, but yeah, and you know, 290 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: despite the problems that exclusion and are causing, UM, Lauren 291 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: as she realizes that her community could not handle that approach. 292 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: Even then, as she's progressing your authors stuff and she's 293 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: to beating with herself, you know, who to bring into 294 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: her fold Exclusion and inclusion. They play a role, you know, Um, 295 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: she has to find form bonds and you know, stay safe. 296 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: But at the same time, the bonds that she forms 297 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: could put her in danger if she's betrayed or if 298 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: the people that she invests and end up being harmed 299 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: in some way, because the harm that they experience will 300 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: ultimately affect her as well. So, as Lauren is making 301 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: her way up Noah, she is continuing to wrestle with 302 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: this idea of inclusion and exclusion because as she's progressing 303 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: north in hopes of you know, building a community of 304 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: some kind, creating, joining, forming community or some kind. She's 305 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: also forming and establishing her religion. Like I mentioned before, 306 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: it played a major role in the community that she 307 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: came from, and in fact, novel points so that one 308 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: of the reasons people are attracted to, you know, religion, 309 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: to Christianity in this chaotic time and in general, really 310 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: it's because it provides hope and hope in the form 311 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: of an afterlife, and hope is what people really really 312 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: need in these hellish twenties that they are dealing with. 313 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: The Lauren comes to realize that the hope and hope 314 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: and the afterlife ultimately isn't enough for the people that 315 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: have invested so much into it. Um one of the 316 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: people in the community, Um ends up despite being a 317 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: staunch believer that UM trigger warning by the way for suicide. Um, 318 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: despite being a strong believer that you know, suicide is 319 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: a sin and I was sending straight to hell. She 320 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: is so lost hope and can no longer trust in, 321 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: has been dealing with so much pain that she ends 322 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: up taking her own life. Yeah, and she takes her 323 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: own life, And as Lauren remarks, she takes her own 324 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: life knowing Um, or at least believing the pain hereafter, 325 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: and yet she finds it more of a reprieve than 326 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: the pain she was experiencing here now. And so as 327 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: Lauren is witnessing these things happening around her, Um is 328 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: dealing with, you know, loss and her baptism and her 329 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: father's commitment to the church, she is continuing to develop 330 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: the idea of earth Seed, and she begainst the contrast 331 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: earth Seed from christian with Christianity Um, and particularly in 332 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: the sense of how the two religions address hope and change. 333 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: In Christianity, you know, they have the hope Um of 334 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: the afterlife against this brutal life life now a life, 335 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: whereas earth Seed simply presents the central principle. God has changed. 336 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: That's the first principle of earth Seed. Second is that 337 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: shape God. So first you have to recognize and accept 338 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: that change is inevitable, often destructive, but you could also 339 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: recognize your poet to shape it Um. And so from 340 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: that comes the third principle, which has to to um 341 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: pursue the destiny, the destiny being the establishment of humanity 342 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: and other worlds. And to be quite honest, I am 343 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: as this is one aspect of the philosophy of hearths 344 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: see that I think I diverge from Um Laura and 345 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: of course has a lot of focus on the heavens, 346 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: as in the cosmic heavens and scattering seed, which is, 347 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, humanity across you know, all these different planets, 348 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: establishing ourselves in different worlds. But I feel as though 349 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: the destiny is in a way once the destruction, I 350 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: think it's it's a misplaced um, a misplaced who I guess. 351 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: I mean, there's that's kind of one of the points 352 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: of the book, right, because there's, especially in the second book, 353 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot from the perspective of her daughter that 354 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: kind of shows how as as much her philosophy is 355 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: a really understandable and in some ways admirable adaptation to 356 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: the completely fucked up times she was born into, it's 357 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: also in the same way that a lot of other 358 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: people's philosophy has become, you know, and that her parents 359 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: and stuff are earlier in the first book, it's a 360 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: way for her to kind of justify not paying attention 361 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: to the people in her life and not not taking 362 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: proper care of them, because she's got this thing that's 363 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: bigger than them, she works, and you really by the 364 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: by the end of the second book, you really have 365 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: to sort of contend with the fact that you know, 366 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: you sort after grapple with how things with her daughter 367 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: would handle India. I guess I'll leave it at that. Um. Yeah, Yeah, 368 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: that's part of it. I mean, she's so dedicated to 369 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: this cause, so this new religion of who um and 370 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: you know she's recruiting people into it. You know, she's 371 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: selling people leavest this hoop. You know that following its 372 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: believe in the Destiny, eventually you know, space is going 373 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: to become the real life heaven. We could actually get 374 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: out there and can you start for herself for ourselves? 375 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: And that's part of it as well, part of the 376 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: what idea of the Destiny is, you know, a fresh 377 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: stock for humanity, a sort of a maturation of humanity, 378 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: This idea that you know, once humanity establishes itself in 379 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: other wounds, that it would have grown up as a species. Yeah. 380 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: And it's It's one of the things that I really 381 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: respect about these books that I think a lesser writer 382 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to pull off, is that the 383 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: degree without beating you in the head with it. You 384 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: see her as first failed by the philosophies and ideologies 385 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: of her parents generation and by the systems that people 386 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 1: had gotten stuck in. She's very much a character who 387 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: grows up in a world where all the adults are 388 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: stuck UM essentially like a system that has become a 389 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: death cult, and she has to figure out a way 390 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: out of it. What she comes to believe in so 391 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: much that in her own way, she becomes stuck in 392 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: that new thing, and it renders her unable to see 393 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: certain things that are important. And the book never portrays 394 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: her as completely right or completely wrong, because that's just 395 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: not how civilization works. Things just change over time. And 396 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, the the ideology that her parents and the 397 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: adults are all stuck in in the beginning of the 398 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: book is an ideology that worked to a degree at 399 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: some point in the past. Um, which is just it, 400 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: It's it's It does a really good job of of 401 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: showing a number of things, which is kind of what 402 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: it's like to be a kid realizing that the adults 403 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: have fucked you, what it's like to become radicalized UM 404 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: and realize that the world doesn't have to be the 405 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: way that it is, and what it's like to let 406 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: that radicalization lead you somewhere to where you miss important things, 407 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: Like there's so much going on in the evolution of 408 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: what the characters believe in this book that is is 409 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: just masterful from a storytelling standpoint. Yeah, I mean the 410 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: second book really does a good job showing her sort 411 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: of blindness as well when it comes to things going on, 412 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: because what ends up happening one of the worst incidents 413 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: in that second book is something that's of course not 414 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: a victim blame, but it is something they could have 415 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: prepared for a bit more, a lot more. Actually, Yeah, 416 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: it's it's they're good books. There are books that you 417 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: will if you're like me, you will start reading them 418 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: and you will get really into the first book, and 419 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: then you'll take a ten minute break to like check 420 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: the news, and something will send you into a panic spiral, 421 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: and you'll read the next two books getting increasingly depressed. 422 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: It's good because the third book never released. Yeah, she 423 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: never quite got to make it. Yeah, and I'll get 424 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: into that as well in a bit, and how it 425 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: ties into the destiny, right, but just a realtory, you know, 426 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: who is principle? God has changed, God is not a person. 427 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: It doesn't love or hate or watch over us or 428 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: no worse. It just is second principle shape God. God 429 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: is maalable. God is power, infinite, irresistible and exorable, indifferent, 430 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: and yet God is pliable. Tricks to teacher CHIOSK Clay 431 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: and truly emphasizes the change is neither good nor bad, 432 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: but it is potential. And we could and we have 433 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: a choice to either be a victim of change, the 434 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: victim of God, or we can become a partner of God, 435 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: or we can become a shape of God, or we 436 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: could just stay as God's plaything as changes prey. It's unavoidable, 437 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: but all actions can shapest direction and speed, and the 438 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: end change prevails. And there's a comfort in that because 439 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: once we can understand that, you can return that efforts, 440 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 1: the inevitability of change can be what thrust us forward. 441 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: And I think, Um, I think people who are invested 442 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: in in activism, in organizing and just revolutionary work, I 443 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: think their aspects of we see that I think be 444 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: very motivating, very impactful, very energizing because despite you know 445 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: how circumstances play out, Um, there's a recognition that we 446 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: are never entirely disempowered, you know, And so like just 447 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: the last point, I want to get into a the destiny. 448 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: I think that's what it would make me if I 449 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: were to be in this world. I think that's where 450 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 1: I would diverge from the earth Seed orthodoxy, because, I mean, 451 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Lauren talks about how, you know, history is just this 452 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: repetitive thing. We have all these wars and kill a 453 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: bunch of people and impoverish others and spread disease and hunger, 454 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: and the whole thing is just because that's how it's 455 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: always been, just me, and we have to accept that 456 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: we can choose to do more, make something more of ourselves, 457 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: and to who making something more of ourselves is establishing 458 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: ourselves another planet. So if she is earted orthodoxy, I 459 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: suppose I'm a earth Seed Protestant. You see Martin Luther 460 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: nailing your thesis to I don't know the door of 461 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: her house in Seattle exactly. I would be a reformer 462 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: of the of the destiny in the sense that I 463 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: seek the destiny could be creating a heaven here on 464 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: Earth like rather than pursuing it cosmic heaven. And I 465 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: don't think it's even something that Lauren at least I 466 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: don't recall Lauran ever grappling with the possibility because she 467 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: really is fixated on this cosmic um idea. I think 468 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: she grabbed the possibility that humanity can mature quote quote 469 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: here on Earth. You know. Um, she doesn't really draw 470 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: munch attention or has so much time thinking about things 471 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: like ecosystem restoration or you know, changing the pushing back 472 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: against the government or the economic system that is impoverishing 473 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: and inflicting violence upon people. She's just really fixated on 474 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: the destiny. And so that's when I get into the 475 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: Fluid Book and things I learned about the third book 476 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: when I was researching for this episode. But actually planned 477 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: on exploring the fulfillment of the destiny in the third book, 478 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: um parable of the trick. Still. In fact, she intended 479 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: to have a seven part series, so the third book 480 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: would have been near the middle, as the story would 481 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: have focused on another woman named Imara who is living 482 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: on it called me in the future, on a planet 483 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: called Boom, far away from Earth. Cold. It is not 484 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: the heaven that was hoped for, but gray, dank and 485 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: utterly miserable. Everybody is homesick, um homesick, not just in 486 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: like oh, I haven't been home in a while kind 487 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: of thing. Homesick in the sense of like you know 488 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: when someone is like an amputee and they have this 489 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: sort of phantom limb sensation. Yeah, this homesickness is like 490 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: a phantom limb pain, a neurological debilitation. It's like trying 491 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: to graft humanity answer a new planet, and it's it's 492 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: it's like if humanity were a branch and this new 493 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: planet as a tree, and like both the tree and 494 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: the branch are kind of rejecting each other. Um. And 495 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: so she never really got very far into writing Parable 496 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: of the Tricksters. In fact, she had a lot of 497 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: different um ways of approaching it, a lot of different 498 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: manuscripts that she got, you know, a couple of pages 499 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: into and then discarded. You know. So in some versions 500 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: the colonist end up having like creeping blindness. In others 501 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: they get this telepathy um. In other versions, she has 502 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 1: to solve a murder. Another version, she becomes a ghost. 503 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes she's an earth an earth Seed skeptic. Sometimes she's 504 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: a true believer. Sometimes she's a hyper rampath. Sometimes she's 505 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,399 Speaker 1: cured of it um. Sometimes the planet itself is filled 506 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 1: with giant dinosaurs, other times small animals, other times intelligent 507 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: aliens um. And there's also this idea, this I would say, 508 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: very Twilight Zone esque idea that the aliens that they 509 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: do encounter tokens of their escalating collective madness. And so 510 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: the whole idea of power of the tricks to and 511 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: would have been the subsequent books was, you know, the 512 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: continuation of the concept of choice choosing to either you know, 513 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,479 Speaker 1: live together, we'll together, struggle together, or you know, fight 514 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: and scheme and lose their minds, break down, die and 515 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: murder alone. In her speech to the u N in 516 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: two thousand one, that would be like five years before 517 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: she passed away, I think she did. In like I 518 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: said two thousand and six, she speaks about how before 519 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: she even like started working on the first Parable novel, 520 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: she wanted to write a novel about a utopian civilization 521 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: where everybody had a kind of hyper empathy. But then 522 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: actually figured it would be a utopian society because everyone 523 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: would be inclined to, you know, behave in a more 524 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: pro social way, because any anti social activity they would have, 525 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: you know, inflicts upon others, would be inflixed upon themselves. Immediately, 526 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: but then she realized it wouldn't work because sharing pain, 527 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 1: the threat of shared pain, doesn't necessarily make people behave 528 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: better towards another. She points to be the popular painful 529 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: supports of you know, like boxing and American football, you know. 530 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: And so she recognizes that this idea of everyone being 531 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: a hyper em path because a lot of trouble. I mean, 532 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: if everyone feels each other's pain, who wants to be 533 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: a dentist, you know, who wants to be a newse um? 534 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,720 Speaker 1: And so she discards that idea, and then she basically 535 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: created Lauren, who was a lone hyper and path in 536 00:37:52,600 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: the would that is empathy deficient ultimately, I think, But 537 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: I guess the heart of you know, a lot of 538 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: the issues that we're dealing with, um, she grapp us 539 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: with a lot of questions that should still be explored, 540 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: the idea of inclusion and exclusion, that balance when you know, 541 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: developing community, concept of perseverance, UM, concept of hope, the 542 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: creation and destruction and re booth of really life and 543 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: just what makes life life. I guess I'll wrap things 544 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: up with the code this tolerance have a chance only 545 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: if we wanted to tolerance like any aspect of peace 546 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: is forever a wek in progress, never completed, and if 547 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: we are as intelligent as we'd like to think, we 548 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:06,480 Speaker 1: are never abandoned. That's it us change cheap guarded peace. Well, 549 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: I think that's about as good a line as any 550 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: to end on. Go read Octavia Butler. If you haven't 551 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: check her out, go to the library. Her ships all 552 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: over the library. Libraries are filthy with Octavia Butler books. 553 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: You'll find it or steal it off the internet. She's 554 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: not gonna mind. It could Happen here as a production 555 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 556 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 557 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 558 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 559 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 560 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.