1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: I've never told you, Protection of High Radio. Today, we 3 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: are thrilled to be joined by our friend and colleague 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. Bridget, it's so it's so exciting to be 5 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: with you. I feel like it's been a minute. It's 6 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: been a minute. Yeah, I'm so excited to be back. 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: Are my favorite lady? Yes? Same? And when on record, 8 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: someone just isolate that clip. We were just talking about 9 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: some trials and some tribulations because you've recently had an 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: injury and are recording from a new new part of 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: your house. Yes, I am like, Well, I usually record 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: from my kitchen, but I'm laid up awkwardly on my 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: couch because I have a broken ankle and I'm in 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: a cast, and I can only be comfortable if my 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: ankle is like elevated in a very awkward way. Well, 16 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't look super awkward. I'll see that. It looks 17 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: kind of pretty comfortable, honestly. Okay, good, Yeah, I don't 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: usually get to record podcasts while I'm lounging on account. 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: I feel like it kind of looks like do you 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: know those like celebrity podcasts where it's usually they're they've 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: got their their video there on videos, so it's like 22 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: they've got the headphones and the microphone, but they're like 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: on a beautiful couch with a cool background. I feel 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, that's a great way to feel. Yeah, 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: that's a good place to be. One. You don't look 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: like you're lounging. You look at your very much in 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: attention and professional and from what I can see, so 28 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: that's the person who probably has one of the worst 29 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: postures ever. So you know, kudos to that with a 30 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: book an ankle, because I always feel like like I 31 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: look like my body is broken and I just gave up. 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: So good job. You know, I'll take it. I'll take it. Also, 33 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: you were on TV recently. Oh I know, I get 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: to say I know a celebrity. Oh please. What's funny 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: is that I was at MSNBC uh two weeks ago, 36 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: a week ago, and you know that account room raiders 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: where they rate people's like their their backgrounds when they 38 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: do like virtual news hits or whatever. I got my 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: room rated, and so that's that very couch. I feel 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: like my drab, very old ikea couch is now a 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: celebrity and now the couch thinks it's, you know, a 42 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: big deal it is. That's awesome, the good for the couch, 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: you know what, you know what better day? Yes, I 44 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: mean this one is so old. It's like, oh no, 45 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: butts please, I'm famous now excuse me. Certain level of 46 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: person to know the couch is outshining me, like I 47 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: think it personally, it feels right though, so does ur. Well, 48 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: now that we've learned the couches surpasses, we're both really 49 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: excited for the topic he brought today, Bridget because we're 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: talking about what's been going on with only fans and 51 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: I was just completely incorrect about what only fans is 52 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: and I was only seeing like bits of like on 53 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: Twitter it was trending, and then I saw like a 54 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: bunch of like late night talk show host kind of 55 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: made jokes about it. I think I had been mixing 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: up Cameo with only fans this entire time, or at 57 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: least I thought they were very similar. I thought it 58 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: was like a place where you went and like celebrities 59 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: were like, Hey, that's that's what I thought. I mean, 60 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: that's not You're not totally far off, right. So cameo 61 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: is a site where you could pay to have celebrities 62 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: make a you know, a birthday message, a birthday shout out. 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: I've used it twice in my life. Um, I got 64 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: a cameo of Ramona Singer from Real Housewives of New 65 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: York saying happy birthday to my friends. So it's similar 66 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: only fans. It's kind of similar in that it's a 67 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: it's a content subscription service where creators can earn money 68 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: from their audience who subscribe to their content like a 69 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: k a. The fans and the only fans, And so 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: even though it is certainly widely known as a platform 71 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: for like adult content creators and sex workers, regular celebrities 72 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: are there too now and so, for instance, like back 73 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: to Housewives, I also subscribe to Real Housewives of New 74 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: York stars Sonia Morgan on only fans, and so her 75 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: content on only fans, it's not sexually explicit. It's more 76 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: just like behind the scenes and like you know, exclusive 77 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: content for fans. Um, I'm like, I'm I feel like 78 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,119 Speaker 1: a little bit of a sucker that I pay money 79 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: for this. So like see videos of her, you know, 80 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: picking out outfits or whatever. But cameo and only fans 81 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: are not totally dissimilar, like you're not, you know, far off, 82 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: They're pretty similar in some In some regards, I think 83 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: I missed a cameo boat, so I didn't know much 84 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: about cameo until you guys are explaining it. So I 85 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: knew more about Only Fans because I do remember there 86 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: used to be an account on Only Fans that was 87 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: like a wholesome plant account. There was this woman who 88 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: had amazing plants and are like so she was doing 89 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: like the whole thing where she would just show off 90 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: for playoffs and talk about them on Only Fans and 91 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: that's what people paying for it. I was like, that 92 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: is so wholesome and kind. I'd never Okay, I like this. 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: I like that to you. And I think that really 94 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: does underscore why what people come to Only Fans for, 95 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: whether or not it's like adult content or explicit content, 96 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: or just sort of content that that audiences can really 97 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: see a value in and we'll pay for that value. 98 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: It really is like giving the giving your audience what 99 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: they want. So whether it's sexual content or wholesome plant content, 100 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons I think people have really 101 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: resonated with it because it is about giving people exactly 102 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: what they want right, and just the backtrack what exactly 103 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: is only Fans so that those like Annie who are 104 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: confused and mixing up what this is, can you kind 105 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: of tell everyone what it is and how it originated. Absolutely, 106 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: So it's a content subscription service where content creators earned 107 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: money from their audience who subscribe. So again like the 108 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: a k A. The like fans and only fans and 109 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: only Fans as a platform takes I think cut of 110 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: that money and it can really be lucrative for some creators. 111 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: Only Fans says that it has a hundred and thirty 112 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: million users and two million creators who have collectively earned 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: about five billion dollars. So this is big money, like 114 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: it's it's it's not a niche small thing. We're talking, 115 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, billions with a B. And as I said, 116 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: I mean, there was a time where it was mostly 117 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: known for adult content and sex worker content, and it 118 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: kind of expanded to be kind of non adult or 119 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: non sexual explicit celebrities kind of connecting with their fans. 120 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: You might remember a while a while back Bella Thorne 121 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: was on Only Fans that it caused a big controversy 122 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: because people thought that Bella Thorne as a celebrity was 123 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: going to shift the marketplace and that they were no 124 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: longer going to be centering sex workers and folks who 125 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: make adult content, which I think was like a very 126 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: look looking into what's happening now with o Lengthans. I 127 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: think that was like a very fair concern, and it 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: really does underscore that sex workers and folks who deal 129 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: in adult content, they are often the most savvy when 130 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: it comes to tech, tech platforms and what kind of 131 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: choices those platforms might make down the line, like nobody 132 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: understands technology and staying you know, ahead of technology, like 133 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: sex workers or folks involved in adult content, because they 134 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: really have to be things shift so quickly in terms 135 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: of policy and what's allowed and what's not allowed. You know. 136 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes they refer to sex workers as sort of the 137 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: tech canary in the coal mine who says like, hey, 138 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: this thing is going to happen, and they nine times 139 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: out of ten are correct. And yeah, I remember with 140 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: the Bella Thorne thing, it caused another controversy because the 141 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: way she advertised, or that it insinuated that there was 142 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: going to be a lot of more like nudity and 143 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: or whatever she was promising seemed really bigger and more 144 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: grand than what was actually given, which cost the site 145 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: to crash essentially because so much request was coming for 146 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,239 Speaker 1: the refunds that they were having to give back money 147 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: that they didn't have, to the point that it really 148 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: really affected the rest of the people who had only 149 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: fans account that was making a lot of making some 150 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: money and it was kind of disrupting their cash flow, 151 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: right or their income. That's exactly right. And so you know, 152 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of folks who are involved 153 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: in sex work rightly have concerns that you know, when 154 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: someone like a Bella Thorne comes on and completely disrupts 155 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: the model that that they've been working with, that they 156 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: will be the ones who are harmed or impacted. And 157 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: we know sex workers are already marginalized, they're not necessarily 158 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: folks who hold a lot of power or when it 159 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: comes to even this conversations about the technology that they 160 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: use and of built kind of like made popular or 161 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: made relevant. And so you know, again we see that 162 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: Bella Thorne example that you just explained, like that's a 163 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: great example of what we're talking about. What happens when 164 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: something that sex workers built up and popularized is a 165 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: decision is made that completely further marginalizes them and de 166 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: centers them from something that they have already been sort 167 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: of like building up. Yeah, so why don't we talk 168 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: about this, this decision that only Fans made, this news 169 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: that they made that, Yeah, it is very impactful, um, 170 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: towards sex workers who have used the platform. So here's 171 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: what's going on. So last Thursday, Only Fans that it 172 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: would ban explicit content starting October one. They said, affective 173 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: October one, Only Fans will prohibit the posting of any 174 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: content containing sexually explicit conduct. In order to ensure the 175 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: long term sustainability of the platform and to continue to 176 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: host inclusive communities of creators and fans, we must evolve 177 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: our content guidelines. They also said that creators could still 178 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: continue to post content containing nudity as long as it 179 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: was consistent with their acceptable Use policy, and people were 180 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: like collectively, wtf right, because again, this has been a 181 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: platform that sex workers and adult content have pretty much 182 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: been the thing that only Fans was used for. So 183 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: then Only Fans clarified. They said basically that this was 184 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: not really their decision. It was payment processors like MasterCard 185 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: that process the payments of these creators on the platform 186 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: that we're making this decisions. So they said these changes 187 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: are to comply with the request of our banking partners 188 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: and pay out providers, and again there was this massive, 189 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: massive outcry from folks who were rightly really upset because, 190 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, although content and sex worker content like that 191 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: is that was like the bread and butter of this platform. 192 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: So they have since changed course, tweeting we have secured 193 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: assurances necessary to support our diverse creator community and have 194 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: suspended our planned October first policy change. Only Fans stands 195 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: for inclusion and will continue to be a home for 196 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: all creators. And so it was kind of like a 197 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: grand opening, grand closing kind of situation where they made 198 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: this announcement and then they were like, oh, just kidding, 199 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: but don't get too excited, because this is definitely not 200 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: the end of the story, and I definitely want to 201 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: talk more about why sex workers are still very wary 202 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: about the platform, and like, what's going on with that 203 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: policy coming at this from someone who is you know, like, 204 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: I think I vaguely know what this is. I didn't 205 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: know it was used mostly for sexual content, but now 206 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: I'm wondering. I think I have seen some horror movies 207 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: that have only fans in it, because of course I have, 208 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: but I remember that clarification of like, nudity is allowed, 209 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: but only if it's like not sexual, and I was 210 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: already like that was raising my flag of like, I 211 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: can tell who this is going to feel, like we've 212 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: seen that time and time again of who is the 213 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: judge of what that means. But that being said, that 214 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: was one of the problems that people had with this 215 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: right is that it was pretty confusing and not really 216 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: clear what they were what these rules would have meant exactly, 217 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: So their policy wasn't very clear. They said that they 218 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: were going to be banning sexual explicit conduct, but you know, 219 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: that's pretty vague. They said that nudity is allowed, but 220 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: sexually explicit content isn't to like, what exactly does that mean? 221 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: And it basically really puts the burden on contact creators 222 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: to sort out what would or would not get them 223 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: potentially kicked off of this platform, for whom a lot 224 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: of sex workers this is a big part of their 225 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: financial livelihood and so leaving it to be that vague 226 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: where it's just like, well, you know, we're not going 227 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: to give you more feedback about what is and is 228 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: not allowed. But if you break the rule that we decide, 229 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: you could lose lose out on like money, you know, 230 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: and so that pretty messed up. Yeah, yeah, that would 231 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: just be so confusing. And also you'd be like, who 232 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: do I really ask about this? How far do I 233 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: want to push it? And then something else, as you 234 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: were talking about, when it comes to technology and policy, um, 235 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: sex workers have had to really adapt and one thing 236 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: also at play right now is the pandemic. When it 237 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: comes to adapting to new environments. Oh absolutely, you know, 238 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: sex work is work, and so just like any other worker, 239 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, folks have had to make changes with 240 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: how they can work safely. And so only bands banning 241 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: adult content during a pandemic, which is removed another avenue 242 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: for sex workers to safely make money at a time, 243 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: and we know those avenues have already been disrupted due 244 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: to the pandemic. So it's just at a time when 245 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: they're already a lack of safe ways to do this work. 246 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: It's just taking away one more at a time when 247 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: folks are already really you know, suffering, right, So okay, 248 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: if only fans is known as being a space for 249 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: sex work in this sexual content, and as you said, 250 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: like they kind of back touched from like, well it 251 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: was the credit cards they were pushing us. I mean, 252 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I get curious why they made this decision. 253 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: Oh yes, okay, So this is where things get a 254 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: little bit complicated. This, I mean, this whole topic is complex, 255 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: and I want to name that right up the bat. 256 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: I kind of went into researching this topic thinking it 257 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: was one thing, and then realizing I was incorrect and 258 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: it was quite another. So when I first heard about this, 259 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, this has got to be the same 260 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: old story where a marginalized community help take a platform popular, 261 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: and then that platform just abandons that group when they 262 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: want to kind of go mainstream. We've seen that before 263 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: with Clubhouse, with Patreon, like that is a common thing. 264 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: And I really held that opinion until I did this research, 265 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: and the research really showed me that. You know, I'm 266 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: not gonna say there isn't some aspects of that happening here, 267 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: but the reality is these payment processors truly did cave 268 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: to coordinated pressure from religious groups, and so there might 269 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: be some aspect of you know, only fans wanting to 270 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: go more mainstream at play. The real reality is that 271 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: payment processors cave to pressure from religious groups. And so 272 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: that was something that was new for me that I 273 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: learned in researching this topic. I was like, Oh, I 274 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: didn't realize that there was this behind the scenes, coordinated 275 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: effort to pressure these payment processors into cutting ties with 276 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: the pornography industry. Yeah. That's interesting because I feel like 277 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: this isn't the first time when you bought a topic 278 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have guessed would have this sort of 279 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: angle or intersection, And then when when I learned it, 280 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised, but it's kind of like, Wow, how 281 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: much power these groups have that and I'm not even 282 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: hearing about it. You know that they're pressuring only fans. 283 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: This kind of goes into the Q and on slash 284 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: h Yoga mom type of conversation about trafficking and trying 285 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: to decide what that is and who is the arbitrator 286 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: of it and who is to defend it, And it's 287 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: definitely along those lines that I've seen it time and 288 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: time again. When we you know, we did that whole 289 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: episode about sex trafficking and social media and TikTok and 290 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: all of that, and when we talked about this, this 291 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: is one more that gets into that bigger scope of 292 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: protect our children, protect our girls types of mentality. And 293 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: I've definitely heard of these groups going after what are 294 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: the bigger things, including platforms, although we do see it 295 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: on other platforms, but for some reason we know why 296 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: only fans is the current target and that's the one 297 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: that's making the big splash obviously. Oh absolutely, And and 298 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: really you bring up such a good point, which is 299 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: that we all know that trafficking is a horrible, horrendous crime, period, 300 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: end of sentence. However, when these groups conflate things that 301 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: are not trafficking, which is like a very specific thing 302 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: with trafficking, So when they conflate consensual sex were or 303 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: consensual pornography featuring adults, you know, when they conflate those 304 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: things with sex work, it's not just you know, a 305 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: problematic thing, like, yes, it is problematic, but it's more 306 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: than that. It can be used to really fuel public 307 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: policy and political heft. And so this is not just 308 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 1: a movement happening online. It is being used to fuel 309 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: specific legislation and specific policy. And so you know when 310 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: someone gets on TikTok and says I think I was 311 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: almost traffic because I found a piece of cheese on 312 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: my car or whatever. You know, that may seem like 313 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: not that big of a deal, but when you follow 314 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: that threat and say, and that kind of scaremongering about 315 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: trafficking and misinformation about trafficking is going to be used 316 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: to fuel actual legislation that criminalizes already marginalized communities, that's 317 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: when things get really concerning to me. And so like, 318 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: this is not just an internet problem. This is the 319 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: thing that's really resulting in policy being made in real life. 320 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: And and are to really focus on two groups who 321 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: are doing this for this episode, Exodus Cry and the 322 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: National Center on Sexual Exploitation formally called Morality in Media UM, 323 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: which is sort of an interesting a little rebrand there, 324 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure you can pick up why they've 325 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: changed their name. Basically, these groups have been waging years 326 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: long campaigns against sites like only Fans and their ultimate 327 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: goal is to abolish the sex work industry entirely. And 328 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: you know, as you said, I mean, they do a 329 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: really great job of making themselves seem like their only 330 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: goal is to eradicate sex trafficking, which if that was 331 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: the case, that would be very admirable. You know, even 332 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: the name the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. You can 333 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: understand why they change their name from Morality and Media 334 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: to the National Center on Sexual Exploitation because that's a 335 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: that seems like a much more admirable goal than like, 336 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: we don't like pornography being you know, like so I 337 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: can see why they rebranded. But to be clear, these 338 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: are morality groups who have a history of trying to 339 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: ban pornography and things that they do anti moral. Right, 340 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: You're so right on how they whoever did this change, 341 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: kudos like they did a genius job in rebranding themselves. 342 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: Because morality is subjective. No one's gonna sit here and 343 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: say sexual exploitation is a subjective. It's fine, it's fine 344 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: only if it's fine this way. No one's gonna argue 345 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: with that, and then being so official like their actual 346 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: government entity. Come on, exactly. So a little bit of 347 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: history about these groups. So in the nineties, the National 348 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: Center on Sexual Exploitation attached the National Endowment of the 349 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: Arts for funding what it deemed obscene and profane are 350 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: in The group called for a whitecott of all Time 351 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: Warner products because of the publication of Madonna's Sex Book. 352 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: If you're old like me, maybe you know, maybe you 353 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: remember this book. I actually own it because I am 354 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: a Madonna's superfan, and I mean it's basically like it 355 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: would be so tame today. It's like softcore pornography featuring Madonna. 356 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's really you know, not not that wild. Um. 357 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: This group also advocated that safe sex curriculums were indecent 358 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: and then Exodus Cry is an offshoot of the International 359 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: House of Prayer, which, fun fact, the International House of 360 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: Pancakes once a boiled a suit against them for having 361 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: the same acronym I have. They eventually removed that suit, 362 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: but this group at one point supported the Uganda law 363 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: that made gay sex a crime punishable by death. And 364 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: so you can really see these groups are not just 365 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: interested in cracking down on sex trafficking. You know, this 366 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: is clearly that that's not these groups only motivation. Can 367 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: I put a caveat here, say I actually know people 368 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: who were people a part of the eye of Crew, 369 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: the Pancakes or the Prayer. Not I would be the Pancakes, 370 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: they who were part of the Prayer because you know 371 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: people and the International House of pancakes. Let me tell 372 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: you do you do want to give a know? Uh 373 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: and it was very coldish. We'll just leave it at that. 374 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: I want to know so much more, have so many questions. 375 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: We'll get together. Okay this maybe this is more like 376 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: like after the pot. Yeah. So just based on that, 377 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: like quick history, you can tell that the saying sex 378 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: trafficking is not they're not being completely upfront and honest 379 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: with what they are actually all about. Oh. Absolutely, And 380 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: that's something that really, you know, bothers me because obviously 381 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: sex trafficking is horrible and so bad. And the fact 382 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: that they would use something that is so serious, such 383 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: a serious serious like ill and crime something in fact, 384 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: they would use that to bolster their like anti consensual 385 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: adult porn agenda. I think it is so disrespectful to 386 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: survivors of sex trafficking, right, Like, I really have a 387 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: problem with that. And so here's actually a really good 388 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: quote that I found from Wired magazine. For those like 389 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: Exodus Cry who believe that sexual content shouldn't be available 390 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: to broad audiences, there's an opportunity to leverage a real 391 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: concern of underage and non consensual content being posted to 392 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: porn sites to achieve broader, more drasticals such as just 393 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: banning pornography and sex work outright. And you know, I 394 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: think that survivors of sex work deserves so much better 395 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: than having groups pretend to be advocating for them and 396 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: then an actuality advocating for a completely different thing, right, 397 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: like consensual porn involving adults is a completely different thing 398 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: than sex trafficking. And the fact that these people would 399 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: conflate them and cause confusion and you know, you know, 400 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: create smoke screens in order to promote their anti pornographic agenda, 401 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: I think it's so disrespectful, right, and it is dangerous, 402 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: just outright dangerous, which is kind of their whole moo 403 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: is they don't see a solution. They just want to 404 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: get rid of something that they're uncomfortable with. And the 405 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: same thing for abortion, when we talk about what they do, 406 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: is they they again pro life and saying, you know, 407 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: you're killing babies, and they're just doing a general arc 408 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: to sound as most horrific as possible in order to 409 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: deem a person the bad guy. And so they want 410 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: to make this as evil as possible to push their agenda, 411 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: which is a whole different conversation in itself, and if 412 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: that means outright endangering people for the sake of their 413 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: own morality or what they think is moral, they're okay 414 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: with it, which is again that bigger conversation of no, 415 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: these only fans. Yes, there's always going to be someone 416 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: who takes advantage of the system, and there's always gonna 417 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: be bad people who are doing bad things everywhere. We 418 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: know this, this happens. But for those who are able 419 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: to make their own decisions, have autonomy in doing what 420 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: they feel is safe and still being able to make 421 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: money the best way they can. Why not why are 422 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: we like, why are we regulating? Why are we going 423 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: to chat and take that off because you're uncomfortable with it? Why? Oh? 424 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean I think I I mean I completely agree, 425 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: and I think I have uh an answer, which is 426 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: that when folks are legislating things like this and trying 427 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: to crack down on things like this, there is always 428 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: some kind of a convenient scapegoat, right, And so when 429 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: folks are concerned about the safety of their kids, you 430 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: can say, like, oh, well, trans people in bathrooms, that 431 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: is the real threat to my kids. So I'm going 432 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: to crack down on that. Or trans youth being on 433 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: sports teams. I'm gonna crack down on that, or sex workers, 434 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,239 Speaker 1: I'm gonna crack down on that, or immigrants. Right like, 435 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: when people are feeling afraid or like they don't have 436 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: control or they want to control the situation, that feels 437 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: like they don't really know where to start. And again, 438 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: sex trafficking is a something that we should be spending 439 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: resources to curb and crack down on, right like, absolutely, 440 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: But I think that in light of that feeling like 441 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: a you know, a tough a tough mountain to climb, 442 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: I think it's easier to be like, okay, well sex workers, Okay, 443 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: well pornography, you know, even if those things are not 444 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: actually the same. Even though even if sex like consensual 445 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: legal sex work and adult pornography are completely distinct things. 446 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: It just I think that for some people it feels 447 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: good to have a scapegoat, to be like, oh, we'll 448 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: crack down on this easy to pick on group of 449 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: already marginalized people, and we'll feel like we're accomplishing this 450 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: thing even if we're not right and you're right on 451 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: without the picking on, because when we actually have victims, 452 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: if they're not victimy enough, they dismiss it because that's 453 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: for so long we've had that term child prostitute or 454 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: underage prostitute, and still people use that term non acknowledging. No, 455 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: this is a This is that trafficking victim that you've 456 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: been looking for to protect. Why aren't you protecting them? 457 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: Is that you're making them the perpetrator. What is happening? Yes, 458 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: and in many states, you know, trafficking victims can be 459 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: jailed for being victims of trafficking. Like, the way that 460 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: we deal with survivors and victims in this country is appalling. 461 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: And if we say that we are truly invested in 462 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: cracking down on things like sex trafficking, we need to 463 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: completely overhaul not only how we legally deal with these people, 464 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: but also how we talk about them and think about them. 465 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: Because there's no such thing as an underage prostitute. That 466 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: you are involved in an exchange of sex for money 467 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: and you are not of age, you are a trafficking victim. 468 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: But that's just that's just the reality. And so you know, 469 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: we we even our language does not allow for a 470 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: more you know, nuanced empathetic understanding of the reality of 471 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: what's happening. And you know what, as an investigator, as 472 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: a for the longest and I've worked with the Department 473 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: Juvenal Justice and I've worked with trafficking victims. A majority 474 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: of the things that we found, again, this is before 475 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: only Fans existed, So I won't I won't say this, 476 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: but I know I got a chunk of information and 477 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: a chunk of things that would go back and forth, 478 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: and we would have stacks of papers and print dolls 479 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: from things like Facebook and not necessarily not even like 480 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 1: on Craislist or all these other sites that existed, but 481 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: typically it would come off of things like Instagram and facebooks. 482 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: And that's one of the biggest ways I know perpetrators 483 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: still go after people, but as it's kind of unassumed 484 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't use this platform, right, So the research 485 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: completely backs this up. So these groups like Exodus CRY 486 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: in the National Center for Sexual Expectation, they maintain that 487 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: they want to shut down these platforms because they're hotbeds 488 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: of you know, sex trafficked miners being used in child pornography. 489 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: But we know that the majority of abused miners are 490 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: not appearing on sites like only Fans. They're appearing on 491 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: mainstream social media sites like you said Facebook. So according 492 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: to the data, Facebook, not Only Fans, is by far 493 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: the biggest offender when it comes to child sexual abuse content. 494 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: According to an independent study released earlier this year by 495 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, mind Geek, 496 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: the parent company of corn Hub, which runs red Tube 497 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: and several other adult tube sites, accounted for thirteen thousand, 498 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty nine instances of what they deemed 499 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material, while Snapchat had a hundred and 500 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: forty four thousand, ninety five instances. Google had five hundred 501 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: forty six seven hundred and four instances. In Facebook topped 502 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: everybody with a whopping twenty point three million instances. Meanwhile, 503 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: Only Fans recently released its first transparency report and claimed 504 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: to have deactivated a total of fifteen accounts responsible for 505 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material. So we can see the main 506 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: offenders are not sites like only Fans, It's Facebook, It's 507 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: it's mainstream social media platforms by far, holy crab millions 508 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: compared to like hundreds of thousands. That's that is an absurd. Um. 509 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: That was mind blowing. Yes, um, And I think going 510 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: back to to what you've been talking about bridget One 511 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: of the most upsetting things about this to me is that, Yeah, 512 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: I feel like we're using victims of sex trafficking without 513 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: talking to them. We're just using them to And by we, 514 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: I mean society and specifically not us with these groups. 515 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, we're we're like propping them up to you know, 516 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: do things and when to make ourselves feel better like politicians, 517 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: politicians and legislators aren't asking them, and we aren't asking 518 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: sex workers because I know this is something we talked 519 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: about when SESTA and FOSTA was up and it was 520 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: all about sex trafficking. But sex workers were like, no, 521 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: you're you're really not understanding what this is going to 522 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: do the impact of this, right, So you and I 523 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: did an episode of stuff I've never told you about 524 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 1: this back in that can listen to about SESTA and FOSTA. 525 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: So in this legislation about regulating the Internet um SESTA, 526 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: which stands for the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and FOSTA, 527 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: which stands for the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, was 528 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: ostensibly meant to crack down on sex trafficking, but actually 529 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: just further criminalized consensual sex work. And one of the 530 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: reasons why this is so upsetting is that advocates say 531 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: that cracking down on consensual sex work can actually harm 532 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: sex trafficking victims. Right, So one, it cuts off this 533 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: safer online avenue for sex workers to make money and 534 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: leaves them more vulnerable to like dangerous situations like trafficking. 535 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: So here's a good quote. Not having the online outlet 536 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: is going to hinder and harm a lot of people. 537 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: Online is much safer, particularly for trans and gender non 538 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: conforming folks. This is from La La Zannel, the a 539 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: c l used trans justice campaign manager who is doing 540 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the work to lead decriminalization of sex 541 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: work campaigning. And then another aspect of this is that 542 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: sex workers truly do often act as a line of 543 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: defense for spotting and reporting sex trafficking because of the 544 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: nature of their work, they really know the signs. And 545 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: so if we're going to be criminalizing sex workers, we're 546 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: actually going to make everyone less safe because sex workers 547 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: are going to be much less likely to say, you know, hey, 548 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: I know what consensual sex work between adults looks like, 549 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: and what I'm seeing it right now is not it. 550 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: I need to report this. If sex workers are further criminalized, 551 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: they're gonna be much less likely to do that. Yeah, 552 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: And it's you know these groups that are saying like 553 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: we're just trying to stop sex trafficking and ultimately hurting 554 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: victims of sex trafficking even more, and just even funding 555 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: or attention, like multiple levels of it. And then recently 556 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: I saw a headline. I was surprised it didn't make 557 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: bigger news, but it was about porn Hub and porn 558 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: hub is being sued by several people who used it, 559 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: and they were claiming, you know, porn Hubb had been 560 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: engaged in all of this kind of like really dark, 561 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: messed up stuff, right. Oh yeah, So to be super clear, 562 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: earlier it was giving the stats of where content involving 563 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: abused miner shows up, and I said that Facebook was 564 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: by far the biggest defender when you compared things like 565 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: only fans or porn Hub. But I need to be 566 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: very clear, like, let's not get it twisted. I cannot 567 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: stress this enough. Porn Hub is a legitimately bad actor. 568 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: It is a hotbed of awful, abusive, not to mention 569 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: a legal sexual content. So I don't want to make 570 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: it seem like I'm downplaying how horrible that place is 571 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: because it true. They truly are a bad actor in 572 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: this space, which is why porn Hub was an early 573 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 1: target of these morality groups. So the history of this 574 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: is a little bit complicated, so I'll try to keep 575 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: it brief. The New York Times Nicholas Kristof published an 576 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: expose on porn Hub that found that many of the 577 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 1: videos there were of miners and non consensual sexual violence. 578 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: But the problem with this article is that his primary 579 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: source was a woman called Layla mickel Wade, and she 580 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: is the former director of Abolition of Exodus Scribe and 581 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: the founder of an anti porn hub campaign called Trafficking Hub. 582 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: And you know, we'll remember that Exodus cries their their 583 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: whole thing Exodus cry is to attack pornography under the 584 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: guise of fighting sex trafficking. And so this article did 585 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: a lot to legitimize cracking down on legal consensual pornography 586 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: made by adults as a means of cracking down on trafficking, which, 587 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: as we know, are two different things. And as a result, 588 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: back in December, MasterCard, Visa and Discover blocked their customers 589 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: from being able to make purchases on porn Hub. I 590 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: think now, if you want to make purchases on porn help. 591 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: You basically have to use like cryptocurrency like bitcoin, because 592 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: you can't use any of these major payment processors. And 593 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: sex worker Mary Moody told Dazed at its route, the 594 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: New York Times article is a religious anti porn groups propaganda. 595 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: It uses salacious anecdotes to tickle the puritanical subconscious of 596 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: the nation with its ultimate goal of censoring pornography. Um, 597 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: and you know, this is kind of like, for me, 598 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like even a stop 599 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: clock is right twice a day, where porn Hub is 600 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: legitimately a bad actor. And so I'm not exactly crying 601 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: any tears that they were, you know, pressured into breaking 602 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: ties with major financial processors. But I've actually seen a 603 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: lot of advocates say that cracking down on places like 604 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 1: porn Hub, while you know, well intentioned because porn Hub 605 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: is a bad actor, the consequences are actually more likely 606 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: to be felt by independent adult content creators who are 607 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, following the law to create their content. And 608 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: so again it's a little bit of a complicated issue 609 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: because porn Hub, they truly are like a bad actor. 610 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: And I do not want to pretend that there anything, 611 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: but but it's just another one of those situations where 612 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: in the end the person who is feeling the consequences 613 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: are the independent creators who are like following the law. 614 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's the whole complication of any of 615 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: this in general, that are always bad and good and 616 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: and it was set up to fail to begin with 617 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: with the fact that again, people who are looking to 618 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: make change aren't the people who have been in this 619 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: industry in any way whatsoever, and who those who have 620 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: actually done it safely and have done it in a 621 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: way that is consensual and you know everything that they 622 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: are the ones. They're not being talked to. Again, they're 623 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: being dismissed as if they are part of the problem. 624 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: As well as the fact that yeah, you're right, sometimes 625 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: they're right. Sometimes absolutely, there are all situations that yeah, 626 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: that you are correct here, revenge porn, porn hubs, use 627 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 1: of any video being just uploaded and being allowed because 628 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: people are mean, um in general. Sure, but yeah, that's 629 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: the thing is that they want to harp on that 630 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: and saying thing, this is the prime example of what 631 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: is wrong, instead of actually looking at the root cause 632 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 1: of what is happening. In the fact that we've felt 633 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: many of people in general, the fact that they like 634 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: they went down this road to the first place. We 635 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: don't know why, but I'm guaranteed because capitalism, you know, 636 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: it's all is capitalism, right, Like I don't care what 637 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: the problem is. Nine times in ten the reason for 638 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: it is capitalism. I have come. I have come to 639 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: see that very clearly. I don't know, I mean, this 640 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: is this is my opinion, but I think that in general, 641 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: we just have this attitude that certain people are quote 642 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: undesirable and it doesn't matter if they are, you know, 643 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: just making a living for themselves, following the law, like 644 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: a lot of sex workers, and I know they pay taxes, 645 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: they have accountants, they have like it is work. It 646 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: is not it is not some horrible immoral thing. And 647 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: this idea that like we don't even need to we 648 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: don't even need to talk to these people about the 649 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: work they engage in and how we can make it 650 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: safe burn and and you know, their concerns in the industry, 651 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: they're not even worth hearing. I think that that really 652 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: goes to this fundamental way that we really, we were 653 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: really comfortable to humanizing entire populations of marginalized communities, And 654 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: I think sex workers really is a great example of that. 655 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: You know, the fact that only fans didn't even feel 656 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: like they needed to consult sex workers before making this 657 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: change on their platform, that is a platform that is 658 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: almost entirely used by sex workers. What does that tell 659 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: you they didn't even feel the need to consult sex workers? 660 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: People have policy conversations that will dictate how they are 661 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: able to work and make money without even talking to them, 662 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: without and without even seeing them necessary to be talked 663 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: to you. But I think it really speaks to this 664 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: idea of like, who do we see as worthy and 665 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: who do we see as just not even human, not 666 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: even worth speaking to? Right? And I just love the 667 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: hypocrisy of the fact that, yeah, it's a growing, booming 668 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: industry and it has existed and continu us exist, and 669 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: it is being funded by these most likely by the 670 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: same individuals who are harping the loudest uh, And we're like, 671 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 1: are we ignoring that fact that there is a reason 672 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: why this industry is as successful as it is, So 673 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: let's talk about that and why you're seemingly ignoring that 674 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: part of this whole conversation. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean listen, 675 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: even if you're not somebody who watches porn or like 676 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: is involved in sex work. It's part of our society. 677 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: It's not going away, you know, like it's been They 678 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: call it the oldest profession for a reason. It's not 679 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: going away. So we need to stop acting like legislating 680 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: pornography and sex work out of existence. It's like a 681 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: idea born out of reality, because it's just not. And 682 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: so instead we should be talking about how we make 683 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: things safer, how we can support sex workers, how we 684 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: can empower sex workers to act as a line of 685 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: defense against things like trafficking, rather than saying no, we're 686 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: just gonna try to act like it's reasonable to completely 687 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 1: get rid of this entire boo being billion dollar industry, right, 688 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 1: And I think in our like media saturated world, we're 689 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: really bad at nuance, and like headlines are very bad 690 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: often at communicating what all all the complexities nuances in 691 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: a conversation like this. So when you have these like 692 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: anti boreography groups being quoted and you know, reputable newspaper 693 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: and they are right in this instance, but they're right 694 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: for the wrong reasons, Like the reasons they're giving are incorrect, 695 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: but the ultimate place they arrive at is correct, but 696 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: we lost all of that complexity and nuance, and it 697 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: just muddies the whole situation and we're we're like, well, 698 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: of okay, I mean, I'm I'm I like to think 699 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm a better I'm pretty savvy when it comes to 700 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: things like that, But I didn't know what only Fans was, 701 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people like it ends 702 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: there like, Okay, porn Hub is like only Fans. In 703 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: my mind, porn Hub was bad, therefore this one's probably 704 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 1: bad and that's the end. And you can feel good 705 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: about yourself because you feel like you're helping sex trafficking 706 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: or you've made a smart, informed decision. And so I 707 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: do think like things like that do make me really 708 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: angry because I feel like people, a lot of people 709 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: do have like they're coming from the right place. Like 710 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: obviously there's some bad actors coming from the wrong place, 711 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: but there are people who are and you know, they 712 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: read this thing and they're like, Okay, then that's how 713 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: it is, and you know, not taking the further steps 714 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: because they're busy or whatever it is. So it just 715 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 1: makes me mad that that's happening. And then you get 716 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: this only fans thing, which has been very confusing because 717 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: they sort of there was this huge outcry over it. 718 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: And honestly, if I hadn't, if we hadn't had this conversation, 719 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: I hadn't looked into it, I would have just thought, 720 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: like I would have thought it was another pornography website, 721 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: the way like Late Night Show post, we're talking about it, 722 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: and then only fans changes their minds. But that's I mean, 723 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: it's ongoing, right, oh, absolutely, And so even though only 724 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: bands backed off of the decision, this is definitely not 725 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: the end of the story. Right. So, first of all, 726 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: as somebody who does a lot of tech accountability work 727 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: and like a lot of like platform pressure work, tech 728 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: platforms are always very tricky with their announcements. So I 729 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: clocked right away that their official line was that they 730 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: were suspending their band on explicit content, right. And so 731 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: that was the same exact language that Facebook used when 732 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: they initially banned Trump, which sounded, you know, very finite, 733 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,800 Speaker 1: but actually just left the door open for them to 734 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: revisit that decision just you know a few months down 735 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: the line. And so I would really like to know, like, 736 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: are they actually permanently backing off of this band forever 737 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: or you know, because the words suspend really couldn't mean 738 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,479 Speaker 1: a lot of things. And I think it's why tech 739 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: companies in their official releases like to use that kind 740 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: of language, because you know, it really couldn't mean a 741 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: lot of things. And so I really want to know, 742 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: like more about their decision. Is it just for this 743 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: one payment processor that they were you know, capitulating to, 744 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: or and so look, if another payment processor wants to 745 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: pull our cut ties, they're gonna you know, go through 746 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: this again. Like I need more definitive information from Only 747 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 1: Fans before I start getting excited. And also the fact 748 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 1: that these religious groups have made it clear they have 749 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: no intention of giving up an exodus. Christ spokesperson she 750 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: tweeted that Twitter is going to be their next target. 751 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: And you know, even if you're not a sex worker 752 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: or not or not on Only Fans, you should be 753 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: concerned about the way that trafficking is being used to 754 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: drive crusades against how adults can use these platforms, because 755 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: all of us should be concerned about that. And again, 756 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, sex workers have been raising the alarm about 757 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: this that when their communities are cracked down on are marginalized, 758 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: are you know, censored? Everybody should be concerned, and so 759 00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: you know, these groups have made it clue that they're 760 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: even though I think they see this as we lost 761 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: this battle, but we had and lost the war. And 762 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: then lastly, you know, the damage is done. Sex workers 763 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: have rightly lost so much trust in this platform, and 764 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: many are looking for alternatives because that trust is just 765 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: so damaged. And you know, as I said, sex workers 766 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: are already marginalized, and we're already in a pandemic, like 767 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: everybody is having a hard time, especially folks who were 768 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: already marginalized. And so we know that sex work is work, 769 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 1: and sex workers do not deserve to have their livelihoods 770 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: be threatened like this, especially when they are the ones 771 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: who made only fans the platform that it is today. 772 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: There's this great quote in this great piece in Days 773 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: from a sex worker named Savannah. They say the proposed 774 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: ban is bull Only fans knows its site would be 775 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: nothing without sex workers, period, it would be nothing. I 776 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: wasn't surprised, but damn I was disappointed. This happens every 777 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 1: time sex workers build a new platform up. It happened 778 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 1: to Patreon and now only fans and it will happen 779 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: to whatever site we migrate to after this. They will 780 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: let us break our backs to build a platform, only 781 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: to spit in our faces and toss us out as 782 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 1: soon as they've made their money. And I think that 783 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: that quote really says it all, you know, And I 784 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: have to say one other thing, Annie, to your point 785 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: about you know why only fans backed off of this decision. 786 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: I think one it was because of the organizing power 787 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: and collective pressure of sex workers, because sex workers are 788 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: very powerful, and when they use their voices and speak up, 789 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,359 Speaker 1: those voices are heard. Because sex workers, I mean, it's 790 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,399 Speaker 1: it's a it's a powerful industry. So that's one. But too, 791 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: I also think it is folks learning from the porn 792 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,720 Speaker 1: Hub situation and not letting groups like Exodus Cry really 793 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: set the tone right, and so not just taking in 794 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: these groups at face value that like, oh, well they 795 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: say they're an anti trafficking group, nothing to look into 796 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: their they are completely you know, there are a great 797 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: source to base this entire expose on that will go 798 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 1: on to shape the policies of how porn hub operates. 799 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: I think this time around, people were unwilling to just 800 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: allow for religious anti pornography groups to set the agenda 801 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 1: without any kind of push back. And so I think 802 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: making sure that all of us really have our kind 803 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: of like critical thinking ears on when folks are talking 804 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: about sex work, when sex work is being legislated and 805 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: sex workers are not part of the conversation, all of 806 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: our little smighty senses should tingle to be like, oh, 807 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: this might be something that is not as it seems. Yes, 808 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear you say that. That makes me 809 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,359 Speaker 1: very happy because that when you when you were like, yeah, 810 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: they quoted this one person kind of anti foreign lady, 811 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, no, it's not good. So I'm 812 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: glad that that it seems to be that seems to 813 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: be changing. Yeah. We should always all of us be 814 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: very ask where like news is coming from, and um, 815 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: just who who's behind it and the motives behind it 816 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 1: and the motives behind decisions like this and that being said, 817 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: are there things that we can do to help? I'm 818 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: so glad you asked. Absolutely. Um. The first is supporting 819 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: sex worker owned and operated collectives and spaces, and one 820 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,840 Speaker 1: that I love is the Sex Worker Outreach Project Behind Bars. 821 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: We can find it at s w o P Behind 822 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,359 Speaker 1: Bars dot org. It is a great or working on 823 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: the decriminalization of sex work, not further criminalizing it, and 824 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: it is fantastic. Um. And then also you might have 825 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: local options of organizations in your community that are really 826 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 1: supporting sex workers. Um. I live in d C. One 827 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: of my favorite organizations is HIPS. I love Hips. They're 828 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: a great organization that really focuses on harm reduction and 829 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 1: really just you know, their sex worker outreach is like, 830 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: what do you need? What can we get you? How 831 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: can we work make this work safer for you, better 832 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: for you? You know? And yeah, so do some digging 833 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: into organizations in your community that might be good places 834 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,240 Speaker 1: to help support sex workers. Also, when policies about sex 835 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: work are being discussed, look to sex workers for insight. 836 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,760 Speaker 1: You know. Even in putting together my research for this episode, 837 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, I talked to sex workers. I've had articles 838 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: about sex work written by sex workers. I followed sex 839 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:11,959 Speaker 1: workers on social media. And I really want to shout 840 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: out a few people who's writing and thinking kind of 841 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 1: helped me get a better understanding of this entire only 842 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: fan situation. First is Kathy resin Wits. Kathy is an 843 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: Only Fans creator and a writer who covers the intersection 844 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: of tech and sex work. You can find are writing 845 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: all over the web. It's super good and another is 846 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: Ashley Like the sex Worker Outreach Project Ashley's Twitter was 847 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: super helpful and mean just getting a better understanding of 848 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: the kind of attacks that sex workers face on a 849 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: regular basis and a general understanding of the only fan situation. 850 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: Ashley is actually promoting an online action for September one 851 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: to protest banking discrimination and the platform and stability that 852 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: sex workers often face. So check out Ashley's Twitter feed 853 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,320 Speaker 1: and the hashtag acceptance matters for more information. And again 854 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,280 Speaker 1: just recognize that sex workers often just by the nature 855 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 1: of the work that they do, have really interesting, smart, nuanced, 856 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: thoughtful takes on things tech and culture, so they're always 857 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: going to be a smart follow if you're looking to 858 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: learn more. Again, both amazing resources and yeah, just do 859 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,360 Speaker 1: some work finding interesting voices of sex workers that you 860 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 1: can look to when things involving sex work is in 861 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,760 Speaker 1: the news, so that you're not just taking somebody else's 862 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: word for it, you know, without actually listening to their voices. 863 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: Because again, sex workers have very interesting stuff to say 864 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,919 Speaker 1: about technology and culture and also, of course sex work. 865 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,359 Speaker 1: And then the last things I'll say are kind of 866 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: I guess sort of um self work, as as as 867 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: my therapist might say. So, the first part of this 868 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of like internalizing self work is really recognizing that 869 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: sex workers don't need to be saved quote unquote. They 870 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: need support, they need resources, they need you know, they 871 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: don't they don't need someone to like you know, I 872 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: guess a lot of the way that people talk about 873 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: sex work is like, we're gonna save you from this lifestyle, 874 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 1: and that's not really what sex workers are looking for. 875 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,839 Speaker 1: Sex workers are looking they need support, right, And so 876 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: disavowing yourself of that internalized notion that somebody who was 877 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,359 Speaker 1: involved in sex work automatically is someone who you know 878 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,879 Speaker 1: is looking to be saved, I think shutting the door 879 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: on that fiction was really helpful for me understanding sex 880 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,360 Speaker 1: work in general. And then lastly, if you consider yourself 881 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,719 Speaker 1: a feminist, really deeply include sex workers in your feminism 882 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: and in your analysis of feminism, you know, recognize it, 883 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, if you've ever watched pornography, taken a pull 884 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,760 Speaker 1: workout class, if you enjoyed the film Hustlers with Jennifer Lopez, 885 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: which I know I did. All of these things are 886 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,440 Speaker 1: things that we have because of sex workers. And so 887 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,919 Speaker 1: you know, even if you're not somebody who enjoys sex work, 888 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: all you only need to look around to see all 889 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: of the ways that sex workers and sex work have 890 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: defined and shaped our culture and that at the very least, 891 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: sex workers deserve support. And if you consider yourself a feminist, 892 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,279 Speaker 1: I believe that it's essential to include sex workers in 893 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:10,439 Speaker 1: your analysis of feminism. Totally agreed, So well said, and yeah, 894 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,879 Speaker 1: I think it's it's another point that you make and 895 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,440 Speaker 1: we make in in these segments and these episodes. A 896 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 1: lot is that kind of that critical thinking and just 897 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: ask yourself when you're enjoying it, like do a little 898 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,640 Speaker 1: bit of research and where did this come from? And 899 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,359 Speaker 1: who are the people that made it? And who are 900 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: the people that maybe got kicked off of it, and 901 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,960 Speaker 1: like just really asking those questions because this is, I mean, 902 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,880 Speaker 1: this is pretty that a platform, and it's happened before 903 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 1: several times. As you mentioned, it would be like okay, 904 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 1: we've attracted in heavy quotes like more classy audience, Now goodbye, 905 00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:51,760 Speaker 1: we don't need you anymore. Like that's terrible, yes, really, yeah, yeah, 906 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,880 Speaker 1: So thank you for bringing this to our attention. It 907 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: is always such a delight to have these discussions with you, 908 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,239 Speaker 1: and I feel much more because I was confused by 909 00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 1: the whole thing, So thank you, thank you for having me. 910 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a media subject, it's it's, it's and 911 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,839 Speaker 1: again this was all all this information was accurate as 912 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: of today Friday, but it's an ongoing situation so this 913 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: could change, so keep an eye on it, you know. Yes, yeah, 914 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,440 Speaker 1: we'll go in time stamp does. This is August one, 915 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: so if there's things can change. We have to do 916 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: this a lot because we're out of date typically within 917 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:31,919 Speaker 1: a week. So thanks so quickly. So Bridget, where could 918 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: the good listeners find you? Well, you can listen to 919 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,400 Speaker 1: my podcast on this very network called There Are No 920 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, where we talk all about all 921 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: of these fun, media complex issues of the ways that 922 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,680 Speaker 1: tech and culture and marginalized communities and feminism intersect. You 923 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever 924 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,319 Speaker 1: you get your podcast on. You can follow me on 925 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,480 Speaker 1: social media. I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter and Bridget 926 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,919 Speaker 1: Murray in DC on Instagram. Yes, and definitely check out 927 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: all of those things can't wait to have you back, Bridget. 928 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: If you would like to emails, you can. Our email 929 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: is Stuff Media Mom, Stuff at I Hurt mea dot com. 930 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most Stuff podcast 931 00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:12,719 Speaker 1: or on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told to You. 932 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you, 933 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:17,960 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told 934 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,359 Speaker 1: the direction of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio, 935 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,879 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 936 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:23,800 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.