1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Quodydas, but Joseph's gotten more. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: The best gardener that I have ever known, hands down, 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: is my mama. She can make things grow where other 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: people other people would pale. It's amazing what she can 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: do in a garden. And her gardens are lovely. Now 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, you know, when 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: you go into her backyard it looks like Versailles or anything, right, 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: But it's amazing what she can do just with a clipping. 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: For instance, I gave her, I don't know, I guess 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 2: as a gift. I gave her this like specialized fern 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 2: many years ago, and just out of the clippings that 12 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: she saved from this thing, she has got baskets to 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: this day that she gives away of these things. And 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: you could say that about a lot of her let's 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: just say Flora. But today we're going to talk about 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: another beautiful garden, a garden that was tended to with 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: loving care by a lady who spent it would seem 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: most of her time in it. And of course it's 19 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: in Florida, so kind of year round. Her name was Karen. 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 2: Karen spent a lot of time tending to her garden. 21 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 2: But what people didn't realize is that Karen would wind 22 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: up buried in it as well. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 23 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: and this is body bags, David. I don't know that 24 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: I've ever asked you this question. Do you have a 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: green thumb? 26 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Oh? 27 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: You know, Joe asking me a question like that, you 28 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: gotta know better. I'm not the gardener, I'm the goather 29 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: tips the. 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: Gardener today with this case, this lady, she seems as 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: though that she spent the majority of her tom outside 32 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: just working in the yard. And you know, back to 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: my mother, it's very therapeutic for people. You can get 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: lost out there. 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: And that's what Karen Pieas did. She worked in the yard, 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: not just the flowers, but the yard, I mean the grass, 37 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: the you know, the edging, every aspect of the guard 38 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 3: of her yard was important to her. And living in Florida, 39 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 3: she spent a lot of time working in the yard. 40 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 3: But let me give you a little background on Karen Joe. 41 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: Because Karen Pieas was known by neighbors as very friendly, loving, 42 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: just a wonderful nice person. They knew her as the 43 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 3: person working in the yard. When they didn't see her 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: in the yard for a couple of days and couldn't 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: get her on the phone. They knew something was wrong, 46 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 3: so they called their friends called used to do a 47 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: welfare check. Hey man, just go check on our friend. 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: Now when police shop up, I'm gonna give you the 49 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 3: backstory in just a minute, okay, because there's so much 50 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 3: There is so much more to this. The friends didn't 51 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 3: just make one phone call, okay, but to cut to 52 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 3: the nitty gritty, police show up to do a welfare check. 53 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 3: Karen is not in the house. They can't find her 54 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 3: and her sister, Deborah Patton, who lives with Karen. They 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 3: live in this house together in Florida, and she's giving 56 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: answers Joe to the questions police are asking and they're 57 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 3: not right. They're not right, and the police know she's lying. 58 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: They know that the person talking into them is lying 59 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: to them, and so they started looking around and one 60 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: thing leads to another, and they notice that there's like 61 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: a hole that's been dug in the backyard. You know 62 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: how when you dig a hole and you put the 63 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: dirt back in, it never levels out, you know. So 64 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: while one of the deputy he's just standing there, you know, watching, 65 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: they went ahead and got a warrant to do a 66 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: search and to make sure nothing else could go on. 67 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: And sure enough, Karen Paie is was found buried in 68 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 3: the backyard in about a two foot hole, and her 69 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 3: sister was arrested. Karen Patten was arrested in charge. Now, 70 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 3: by the way, I was looking at their ages, Joe 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: seventy two years old, sixty seven at the time. They're 72 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 3: not twins. The girls, the sisters were born thirteen months apart, 73 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: so kind of keep that in mind. These are sisters 74 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: who really are close in age, were raised very close 75 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 3: in age, but their adult lives total opposites. Joe and 76 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: I mean total opposites. So if you can imagine where 77 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: Karen Paie has stayed near the family home, she cared 78 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 3: for her adult parents as they got older. Karen maintained 79 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: a career on her own. She saved money. She was 80 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 3: known as a penny pincher. Okay, she was very concerned 81 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 3: about financial stability, and she took care of her parents 82 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 3: as they slipped into Alzheimer's dementia into Alzheimer's, and she 83 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: was there caring for their parents. 84 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: Well. 85 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: Deborah Patten meanwhile had married and was gone. She was 86 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: living in Louisiana with her husband for twenty eight years. 87 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 3: Never came back to help care for the elder adult parents. 88 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 3: That was Karen's job. But once the parents died, Deborah 89 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 3: shows up and moves in with Karen. Now I mentioned 90 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: Karen Pius has taken care of this house. She took 91 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 3: care of the parents. Everything is owned by her. She 92 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: owns this. Deborah shows up having done nothing and moves in. 93 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: Neighbors are like, you know, Debra's not really nice to you. 94 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: They heard arguments, They knew Deborah just pushed Karen every 95 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 3: which way. Joe, to give you an example, I mentioned 96 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 3: Karen stays home to take care of mom and dad 97 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: as they go through. I don't know how many of 98 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: y'all understand how bad Alzheimer's is. It's really really rough. 99 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: On my hat's off to you if you've heard for 100 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: an adult, it's just rough. But Karen stayed, took care 101 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: of both mom and dad. Deborah didn't have anything to 102 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 3: do with them. She shows up after they're gone and 103 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: she's left her husband of twenty eight years. Deborah has 104 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: and moves in with Karen. They don't get along. Now, 105 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 3: when I say they don't get along, Joe. I'm thinking, 106 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 3: if Karen has been living in this community her whole 107 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 3: adult life and taking care of the house and the 108 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: family and all that, and then somebody else moved, that 109 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 3: new person coming into the mix is the one causing 110 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 3: the problems, not the person that's been there the whole time. 111 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: So when I say they didn't get along on something 112 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 3: of no, Deborah did not get along with Karen. She 113 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: wanted what Karen had. Deborah had nothing, no money, no nothing. 114 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: She never kept a job for very long, did not 115 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 3: proceed very long. She couldn't, you know. So here's Karen, 116 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,559 Speaker 3: who has taken care of everything, had her own career 117 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 3: and took care of mom and dad. Now she owns 118 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: her own house, she proud of her yard, and here 119 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 3: comes her sister with nothing. Debrah has nothing, but Karen 120 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: puts her up. 121 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: Well, you know this dynamic started. Uh, you know, it's 122 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: amazing as a death investigator when I always tell I 123 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: always tell students, I've given interviews where they say, well, 124 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: what's the most interesting interesting thing about being a death 125 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: investigator aside from being around the dead. And this is 126 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: going to be really this is going to sound really, 127 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: really creepy, but I'm going to go ahead and go 128 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: ahead and say it. What's really cool about it is 129 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: that you literally get to peek in people's closets, and 130 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: if you want a good story, suddenly, because of the 131 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: intimate access that you have behind the scenes kind of 132 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: seeing the way things develop in that world, you have 133 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: this narrative that's laid out, you know, and suddenly, and 134 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: many times it'll burst on the scene. You'll have this 135 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,559 Speaker 2: kind of moment of clarity when you're working a case 136 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: and you begin to understand interpersonal dynamics. And let me 137 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: tell you something, when you're dealing with uh, with sick parents, 138 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: when you're dealing with the death of a parent, there 139 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: is nothing like the stimulus that that is interjected into 140 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: the relationship between siblings, because if there is something ugly there, 141 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: it's going to pop up. But you know, I submit 142 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: to you that this ugliness has it far. It extends 143 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: way way back into the past. It wasn't just the 144 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: moment she shows up on the doorstep here, and there's 145 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 2: probably been ongoing tension over the years. There's probably been resentment, 146 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: you know, from the perspective of this sister that just 147 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: you know, kind of floats in from Louisiana, incredible jealousy. 148 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: You know, parents always preferred you over me. 149 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: All the while. 150 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: You know she's not doing anything to lift her finger 151 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: to help, And you're right, it's a There are people, Dave, 152 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: I don't see how they keep from cracking under the burden. 153 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: And if you've got two parents that are affected by 154 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 2: any kind of dementia, it is exhausting. I don't see 155 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: how people do it. And you're having to bear that 156 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: burden day in and day out, shifting from one to 157 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: the other to try to keep control over it, try 158 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: to manage it. Just the finances alone. I can see 159 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: why she would retreat to a garden day. I really can. 160 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: For those few precious moments she might be able to 161 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: go out there and retrieve some bit of sanity, some 162 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: bit of solemnity, some bit of peace, maybe hoping that 163 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: she would walk back into that house where her parents 164 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: had been, in the state that they were in, and 165 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: something magical would have happened. But I got to tell you, 166 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: in the case of Karen, after her sister shows up, 167 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 2: it was anything but magical. Because when the sister showed up, 168 00:10:48,480 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 2: Hell followed with her. It amazes me, Brother, Dave, that 169 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: we've had this conversation before about deposited remains. The dynamic 170 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: that interests me the most from a forensic well, it's 171 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: behavioral and it's also forensics as well as kind of 172 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: this interesting blend because I could I could sit there 173 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: and look at a depressed area in the ground, do 174 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: do a retrieval of remains and excavation if you will, 175 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: of remains. But I always always think, why do people 176 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: why do people take not just bodies but evidence and 177 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: hang on to them in there in their environment. And 178 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: that's that's always been a very fascinating dynamic. I think 179 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: it has something to do I've always thought this. I 180 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: think it has something to do with potential perpetrator wanting 181 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: to have constant control and watchcare over what they've done. 182 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: You know, isn't it interesting, Dave? How many cases that 183 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: you and I have covered over the years now where 184 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: you will have a perpetrator that will take a human remain, 185 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: for instance, and just discarded like it's rubbish, you know, 186 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: out in some horrible area. But yet we have these 187 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: others that kind of latch on to these and literally 188 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: hang on to them and continue to exist, perhaps in 189 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 2: the same environment where just out your front door or 190 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 2: your kitchen window. You pull the curtains aside, and there's 191 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: active decomposition going on in your backyard. Think about that 192 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: just for a second. I mean, that's a real I think. 193 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: I think that there could be an academic study actually 194 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: that could be applied to this. You begin to look 195 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: at depositive remains and kind of the relationship between the 196 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: perpetrators and remains, and to see kind of how they 197 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 2: you know, how how did all this come together? What 198 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: was your rationale for hanging on us. 199 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: I have a theory, well, pretty much the same thing 200 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: of what you were saying about control. I think that 201 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: when you have somebody that commits a murder and they 202 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 3: just discard the body to get away from it because 203 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: they have no connection to it, it is just an it. 204 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: They don't have a connection to that person. They might 205 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: even know the name, you know, They just they did 206 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 3: their thing, they killed them whatever, and now I'm getting 207 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 3: rid of the body. But when it comes to this 208 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: type of a situation where his sister has killed a 209 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 3: sister and put her remains in the backyard in a 210 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 3: hole two foot hole, and she's right there, I think 211 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 3: it's because that way her body is there in the backyard. 212 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: And in this case, I think Debra had control over, 213 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: you know, anybody that wants to see. She knows nobody's 214 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 3: discovered the body. Yet if no who he discovers the body, 215 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 3: I'm free and clear, you know, and that way, and 216 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,479 Speaker 3: I think that's the case with others who keep somebody 217 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 3: close to them where they can watch over the remains, 218 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 3: because it's like, if somebody goes near it, I can 219 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 3: go out there and I can get them looking someplace else. 220 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 3: I control the remains, I can keep somebody from finding it. 221 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: But if I don't see them, if I bury it 222 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: out in the middle of nowhere, I don't know. 223 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: One hunter might fall over it or something. 224 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: But Joe, my question for about this, Okay, you get 225 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 3: the cops in the backyard, they get a warrant, they 226 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: see that there has been there's disturbed ground in the backyard. 227 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: Not unique, and that is kind of unique. When you 228 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: have two elderly women at the time, both they're sixty 229 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: seven years old, You're not going to see them out 230 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: there digging a hole for no reason. So there had 231 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: to be a reason for it. And they want to look, 232 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: how do law enforcement because they're going to be the 233 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 3: first ones to look at something like this. How did 234 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: they go about digging what they believe? You know, hey, 235 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 3: we got to find out what's in this area before 236 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 3: we call because it could be nothing, you know, But 237 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: do you have to like dig up and see if 238 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: there's something in there? 239 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: What? 240 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: How does that start? 241 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: Do I have as a cop with a gun and 242 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: a badge writing tickets? 243 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: One minute? Am I in the backyard digging this with 244 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: a tantraw? 245 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: Okay, excellent question, and kind of let me break it 246 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: down to you this way. I know people use use 247 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: motorized augers now too to put in post dig post 248 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: holes with. Okay, but let's go back in time and 249 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: think about a and lord knows I've had to use 250 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: these over the years. I used to work on a 251 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 2: fencing crew when I was in college, one of the 252 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: toughest jobs I ever had. Think about an old uh 253 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: uh posthold digger. You know it's got the two you 254 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: know it's got the the the two spoons. They look 255 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: like gigantic spoon driving it into the round, into the ground. 256 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 2: You're pinching it bringing it out. So if you're if 257 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: you're trying to analyze this from a forensic standpoint, and 258 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: you're looking at a defect in the ground, you look at, 259 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: say the space, and think about kind of the cylindrical 260 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 2: hole that you would generate with a posthole digger or 261 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: even an augur Anythink, now, if I'm going to search 262 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: that area and I'm looking for somebody that is missing, 263 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: what's the potential that they could be in a hole 264 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: with a caliber the size of a coffee can probably 265 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: probably not much. Now, could you discard evidence in there? 266 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? 267 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you could put a weapon in there, or you 268 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: could just be planting trees for all I know. But 269 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: if I see some kind of irregularity, and this is 270 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: one of the things that in what's referred to as 271 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: forensic tafonomy, which is a study of the ground, you 272 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: look at the ground from the perspective of the potential 273 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: of what you could harvest out of it from an 274 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 2: evidentiary standpoint, and also are the dimensions of this thing? 275 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: Are they very uniformed? Are they irregular? Because when you 276 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: start to look at uniformity. Okay, and let's say you 277 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: want to you want to dig a hole. I keep 278 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 2: using hole. Everybody thinks that it's you know, you're talking 279 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: about a circle but let's just say you're pulling the 280 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: earth out of it. Do you have definitive margins here 281 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 2: where you can say, okay, yeah, ge way, is that 282 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: looks like a rectangle? It looks like a square, But 283 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 2: you've kind of got this randomized thing. And if you're 284 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: using kind of like a spade spade shaped shovel, this 285 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: comes to a point at the bottom. You've got square 286 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: bottom shovels, you've got spade shaped shovels, and it's got 287 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: these kind of curved edges around. Not a lot of 288 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: care has been given to that. This is just one 289 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: thing that we look for. What is the potential that, 290 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 2: first off, this was dug for some other purpose, or 291 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: does it have the potential the dimensions here for discarding 292 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: human remains or covering up human remains. One of the 293 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: things that's fascinating to me about this is that when 294 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 2: you think about the size and the only dimension that 295 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 2: they are giving us, Dave is two feet Well, it's 296 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 2: two feet two feet wide, two feet long. Is it 297 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: two feet deep? I'm going with two feet deep. Okay, 298 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: so we don't really know what the outer perimeter is. 299 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 2: Two feet deep is insufficient to the task. I'll put 300 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 2: it to you that way, and let me flip this 301 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: around and let me throw this out to you. Okay, 302 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: that hole in and of itself is accusatory. It's accusatory 303 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 2: to let's just say it's the sister and she's looking 304 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: out the window at it. It's accused tory in the 305 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: sense that Karen the gardener had a real sense of 306 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 2: the yard, of the esthetic that whole screams at a 307 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 2: potential perpetrator and says, even in digging a hole, you're insufficient. 308 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 2: And everything you've done in life, and this is a 309 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: great example of it. You're talking about a two foot 310 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: hole to get rid of your sister's body. He's such 311 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: a loser because the sister would not have done this. 312 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: You know what she would have done. She probably would 313 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 2: have got steaks, and I mean that you can drive 314 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: in the ground. She would have gotten kite string, she 315 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: would have tied it off, she would have carefully measured 316 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: it because of the aesthetic of it, because she saw beauty. 317 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 2: But you know, you have to plan beauty. And what 318 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: it comes down to with this is this is pure horror. 319 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 2: I think, Dave that once they begin to look at this, 320 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: and I've actually had this happen. People think that you 321 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 2: can take dirt and shovel it over human remains and 322 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 2: you're not gonna smell anything. That is not the case. 323 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: That's one of the many reasons. There are other there 324 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 2: are other reasons. But you know, in funerary practices in 325 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: America and worldwide, you go deep. Okay, so and six 326 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: feet is kind of you know, it's kind of the 327 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 2: standard measurement, six feet deep, and then you cover it, right, 328 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: you have to cover it and you're not going to 329 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: have some kind of smell emanated. And I know people 330 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: are saying, well, Morgan, what about in balm bodies. We're 331 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: not talking about in BALMD bodies. We're just talking about 332 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: because not everybody's inbalm. Embalming is one of the things 333 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: that is it's very unique to Western culture. There's a 334 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: whole other world out there. There are people that bury 335 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: non embalmed bodies. 336 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: You know, Griffith wasn't involved. 337 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there you go. 338 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: I mean seven thirty that morning, ten thirty that morning 339 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 3: they were burying him. 340 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, my wife and I 341 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: are talking about, you know, into the ground. We're talking 342 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: about natural burial here with no preservation. You know what, 343 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 2: you know, what's kind of what's the point? 344 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: You know what you would I always thought you would 345 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: like dedicate your body to your skills and let them. 346 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: Know that's not going to happen. 347 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: Okay, let me go back to this real quick, Joe. 348 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 3: You've got the two cops and they're looking for Karen. 349 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: They talked to her sister, and they know sister Deborah 350 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: is lying to them that she doesn't know where her 351 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 3: sister is. Her sister's car is in the garage, her 352 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 3: sister's phone, her sister's while it's all still here, Karen's 353 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 3: stuff is here, and the woman who lives with her, 354 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 3: her sister says, I don't know where she is, and 355 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: the cops know she's lying. They see this disturbed ground 356 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 3: in the backyard. They decide they, being the police, they 357 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: want to look at it. They get a warrant. Now 358 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 3: do the police do the officers do this on their own? 359 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: Do they go out there and just you know, with 360 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: their hands, start, you know, scrubbing away. Let's see what 361 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 3: we got here, because you're only going to be we 362 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 3: know postfact, we know after the fact that it's only 363 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 3: two feet deep. That's what we're told, But Karen's body 364 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: was placed in trash bags, in a black trash bag 365 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 3: with bungee cords wrapped around it and duct tape. 366 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: So if her. 367 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 3: Body is placed in there, are the police going to 368 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 3: be able to smell, you know, the body and realize 369 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 3: we got something here we need to explore. Are they 370 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 3: going to get on their hands and knees and start 371 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: pulling dirt? 372 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: No? 373 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 2: Okay, No, If if they were, if I were whispering 374 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: in their ear as an advisor, I'd say freeze, okay, 375 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: because okay, so this is kind of interesting. I gotta, 376 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 2: I gotta, I gotta tell you this, this is kind 377 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: of cool. Well, I'm so glad you brought this up. 378 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: Does smell equal probable cause? Kind of fascinating, right, I 379 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: mean when you think, yeah, because you know, we think 380 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: many times if we see blood coming Okay, let's just 381 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 2: say we've got a closed door in a closet and 382 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: we see blood coming out from beneath in a house, 383 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: I would think that if I'm a police officer and 384 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: I'm clearing the house and I see blood what appears 385 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: to be blood, right, I can't fall into that trap. Forensically, 386 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: you're going to nail me. So if I if I 387 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: look down and I see what appears to be blood 388 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: coming from beneath a door, first off, I'm going to 389 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 2: have my weapon out, and secondly, I'm going to carefully 390 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: open the door and I see a body in there, 391 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: after I check them to see if they have any vitals. 392 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: I'm not pulling the body out, Okay, I'm backing out 393 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: because that's a matter of public safety with a body 394 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: or let's just say, we don't know it's a body yet. 395 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: All we all we have is smell. We have a dimension. 396 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: Remember we got to go back to the dimensional aspect 397 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 2: of this. Could it contain a body? Yeah, potentially if 398 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: they smell it, which I submit to you that you 399 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 2: could through trashbacks. Just think about this. How many times 400 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: have you ever walked to your garbage can outside, okay, 401 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 2: and you've got your kitchen garbage bagged up, and you 402 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: lift the lid on that puppy and all of a sudden, 403 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: it's like, what was it the thriller song The funk 404 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: of forty thousand years rushes out, you know, instraction in 405 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 2: the face. Yeah, dude, yeah, it's foul. But here's here's 406 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: the slippery slope because we know lawyers are watching everything 407 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: we do. Right, if I don't secure a warrant before 408 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 2: I start moving earth on this thing, anything that I 409 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: uncover relative to this has the potential of being thrown 410 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 2: out out so and it has gotten to the point 411 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: now in the world that we exist in that if 412 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 2: you do not secure a warrant before you get your 413 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: trial out, you get your brushes out, You've literally got 414 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: you know. Now, they were kind of like people that 415 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: you've seen guys that do ceramic tiles, that wearing those 416 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 2: knee pads. You know, you've got all your equipment out. 417 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: Before you do that, you better have a magistrate or 418 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 2: judge sign off on this thing. Because here's the thing, 419 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: just because it smells bad doesn't necessarily mean that there 420 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: is something there. But what they found when they finally 421 00:25:42,240 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: excavated the spot was quite shocking. Thing about criminals is 422 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 2: they don't think things through and when it comes to 423 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 2: buried remains, the last thing on their mind is vegetation. 424 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: And it has been it's been one of those things 425 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: that has caught people in the past. When I'm thinking 426 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: about digging a hole in the yard, Dave, I'm you know, 427 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: if I'm just going out in my backyard to dig 428 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 2: a hole. I know that I have to refill the 429 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: hole or pack the dirt around a tree I'm planning, 430 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: or whatever it is I'm doing. From an excavation standpoint, 431 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: crooks don't do that. Did you know that. Let's say 432 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 2: they will dig a hole and bury, say like a 433 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: body in an area, and they'll put the same dirt 434 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: back in. They don't take time to pull the grass out, 435 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: shake the grass off grass because you can actually look 436 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: down and I've seen this happen and you've got roots 437 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: staring back up at your face. And as you well know, 438 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 2: we were talking about things that the cops would have 439 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: seen out there. I think that that's something that's significant. 440 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: If you've got roots, if you're looking at roots, you 441 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: should not be looking at roots. Okay, you've got Saint 442 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: Augustine grass. We're talking about Florida. Saint Augustine grass is everywhere, 443 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: a thick lush, you know, really green, loves that tropical environment. 444 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: Those roots are staring you in the face. You know, 445 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: when did grass start growing inverted? You know? So you're thinking, 446 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: you're thinking, okay, this is just not the case. So 447 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,479 Speaker 2: you have to be very careful because it's not just 448 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 2: if somebody is doing this in a frenzy. You might 449 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 2: see something on the surface that should not be there 450 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: like it can be. You know, I had a couple 451 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 2: of guys that we caught in New Orleans that killed 452 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 2: a photographer out of the French court. They had escaped 453 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: from Florida State pen. Actually everybody winds up in the 454 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 2: French French Quarter or Vegas, right, And so they took 455 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: this guy out that was a cameraman and beat him 456 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: to death with his camera tripod and buried him out 457 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: in the marsh. And I caught this case. And you know, 458 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 2: we caught that guy. We caught those guys because they 459 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: flicked a cigarette butt down into the hole. Wow yeah yeah, 460 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 2: And it had DNA deposition on it. So you know, 461 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: you have to look for those tiny little things like that, 462 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: and you really as an investigator, you have to adjust 463 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: your lens because it's really easy to kind of take 464 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: a bulldozer approach here when you should be doing surgery 465 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 2: to observe and to document an area. You begin to 466 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: look at this and you think, Okay, what is it 467 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: that I need to see? And you have to be patient. 468 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 2: You have to be so patient out here because it's 469 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: so tempting, and just think about it. It's like a god. 470 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: This is a bad example, but I'll go ahead and 471 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 2: say it. It's like a kid on Christmas morning that's 472 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: unwrapping a present. That same part of your brain is 473 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: stimulated out seen. I know that sounds grotesque, but it 474 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: really is. You're thinking, Okay, I know in my heart 475 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: of hearts that there's probably a body down here. Okay, 476 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 2: you have to resist the urge. You have to resist 477 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: the urge. This is why I always recommend that you 478 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: have a forensic anthropologist on site with you because they 479 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: can kind of throw the brakes on there. You leave 480 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: them to be in charge. This is what they do 481 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: because if you don't, well, if you don't, I mean, 482 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: like me, I'm going to go in, you know, with 483 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 2: no breaks on. I will, but not to the degree 484 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: prints of anthropologists, because they start off in like one 485 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: inch squares brushing things away, and it can get really tedious. 486 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: But there's a lot of importance here because they don't 487 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 2: want to miss a single thing. Dave. And in this case, 488 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: I think that I think that that that was it was. 489 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: I'll put it through this way they aired on the 490 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: cautious side here as opposed to just going in like 491 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: a bull in a china shop. 492 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 3: And you know, interesting, as I was digging into this, 493 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 3: digging digging into this story and found out, you know, 494 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 3: the neighbors called for the because they weren't getting responses 495 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: on the phone, they weren't getting answers from Devon Patten, 496 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 3: and they called police to do the welfare check, and 497 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 3: that's what led to the finding of the disturbed ground 498 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 3: in the backyard that leads to Karen being found in 499 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 3: these garbage bags, black garbage bags with the bungee cords 500 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 3: and duct tape. But I just give you an idea. 501 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: When all of this is going on, you know, as 502 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 3: they're working the investigation, neighbors are saying, hey, man, they 503 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 3: didn't get along. Karen had been here for years. We've 504 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,239 Speaker 3: known her for a long time, and she told us 505 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 3: if she ever went missing or that her sister probably 506 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 3: did it, because her sister said had told her to 507 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 3: her face. She's like, Karen is telling friends, Deborah said 508 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 3: she's gonna kill me. Deborah's got a gun. Deborah is 509 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: gonna And so as police are getting this information and 510 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 3: they're looking at the lives of the sisters. Karen consistent 511 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 3: with mom and Dad their whole lives, you know, took 512 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 3: care of them and she owns this house. Deborah in 513 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 3: a twenty eight year marriage, couldn't keep a job and 514 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 3: walks away from her husband in New Orleans or Louisiana, 515 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: pardon me, Louisiana, and comes to Florida to crash in 516 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 3: her sister's house, you know, something, Joe, to make her 517 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 3: sister happy. And Karen owned this home outright, it was 518 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 3: her home. She built Deborah a luxury chef's kitchen inside 519 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: that home, just a beautiful, a gourmet kitchen. This is 520 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 3: what Karen did for her sister, to make her sister happy. 521 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 3: And Karen, who owns the home, she actually has a 522 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: small little kitchen that type thing set up for herself 523 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 3: in the garage. That's what Karen did, bending over backwards 524 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 3: to make Deborah happy. And eventually, you know, Karen ends 525 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 3: up in the hole in the backyard. But as they 526 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 3: as they being the investigators, Joe, all right, we have 527 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 3: found Karen's body in the backyard. What do we do now? 528 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 3: We see that we have a body in the garbage bags, yep, 529 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 3: and the bungee cords are wrapped around her body and 530 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 3: then the bags are secure with a duct tape. So 531 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 3: tell me about this. How are you going to unroll all? 532 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 3: Are you going to take this whole thing out of 533 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 3: the ground with dirt back to the lab? 534 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, yes, yes, and yes. I can't guarantee that 535 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 2: they did that. This is one of the things that 536 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: is really hard to get across to crom scene investigators. 537 00:32:54,200 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 2: You do not, under any circumstances want to practice bag open. 538 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: And here's the thing. You remember JJ and Tylely rights yet, Yeah, 539 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: I had to bring that up right. So with JJ, 540 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: one of the problems I had with that case is 541 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: that you know, you remember he was cocooned in bags 542 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: and he was buried adjacent to that empty pond. Yes, 543 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: and I remember the investigators it seems like it was 544 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: during the trial and it was like one of these 545 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: cringe moments for me. They said, we opened the bag 546 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: and could see his head or see his hair, And 547 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, why the hell you opened in the bag? 548 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? 549 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: Why? I mean, you know that the subject that's inside 550 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: the bag is to cease. Now, you know that something 551 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: horrible has happened. Where are you going to risk everything 552 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: by not taking the remains to a controlled environment. Okay, 553 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: you have to be able to restrain yourself to the point, 554 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: because anything you do out there, it's like I was 555 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: just saying a second about the you know, I know 556 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: it's not necessarily the same thing, but with a cigarette butt, Okay, 557 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: if you just kind of blast through this thing, there's 558 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: no confirmatory thing here going on. You know that you've 559 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: got somebody that's deceased for my money. Okay. And how 560 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 2: I would instruct people is, ye know, we can kind 561 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: of palpate the outside of this bag very very carefully. 562 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: It feels like human form. I think we're going to 563 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 2: go to the medical Examiner's office and which they have there. 564 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: The state of Florida is broken down into medical examiner districts, 565 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: and they're pretty dark on good at what they do. 566 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: They're used to this sort of thing. You roll in 567 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 2: there with that bag and you don't try to listen. 568 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 2: You try to do everything you can to not brush 569 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: away dirt. Period end of paragraph. I don't care how 570 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: dirty it is. I don't care if they're mag it's 571 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 2: crawling all over the place. You take everything to the lab, 572 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: specifically the Medical Examiner's office, and you put it in 573 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: that controlled environment because just by okay, just by splitting 574 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 2: the bag open, Let's say that there were points of 575 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 2: contact there relative to Layton prints. You say, Morgan, it's 576 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 2: been buried in the earth. It rains in Florida. I 577 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: don't care, because you don't know what layton prints might 578 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 2: might have been preserved on the outside. You don't know 579 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 2: what's under under the surface. I mean, how many let 580 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 2: me ask you this, my friends, how many times have 581 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 2: you taken a garbage bag and I know you're thinking, 582 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: I'm gonna pop it like this, I'm gonna get it open. Okay, 583 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 2: guess what you do that you don't think about? You 584 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: readjust your hands many times and put them on the 585 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 2: inside of the bag. Well, that's a point of contact. 586 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: And guess what else? If you like that one, I 587 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 2: got another one for you. You leave behind latent, Prince, 588 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 2: and particularly in this day and age, you leave behind 589 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: DNA deposition as well, just by touching the inside. So 590 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 2: if you're going to cowboy it up as an investigator 591 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 2: and go in there and you begin to at the scene, 592 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 2: and you begin to manipulate the bag in some way, 593 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 2: you know, you pull out your buck knife that you 594 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 2: got on the side, or your spider coat knife out 595 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 2: of your pocket. You flick it open dramatically and you 596 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 2: begin to slice open the bag like you're in some 597 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 2: episode of some ridiculous television show. Well, it's not controlled. 598 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 2: You have got to remain maintain control. And that's why 599 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: it's you cannot go into this haphazardly. You don't want 600 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 2: to cut through the tape. You don't want to dislodge 601 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 2: any of the bungee cords. And sometimes, you know, bungee 602 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: cords failed, they become unattached. Lord knows, I've had I've 603 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: had them pop me in the face when I'm trying 604 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: to tie things down my truck. No pain like it 605 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 2: in the world. 606 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: My brother lost an eye to a bunket ye. Lord Yeah. 607 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're so dangerous man, and and and they're un 608 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: there's they're not predictable. Don't touch them. Don't touch them 609 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: in any way again until you get back to the 610 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 2: controlled area. Now, I am sure that the authorities down 611 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 2: in Florida they do enough of these. They would have. 612 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 2: They're not in some rural location. 613 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: It's just outside of Tampa Bay. 614 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're there. 615 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: I have. 616 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,919 Speaker 2: I would bet money on these people that they took 617 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 2: due care with this, and we're trying to be very, 618 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 2: very careful because there's all kinds of things you can 619 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: get off of plastic bags. And at this point, all 620 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: you know, after you've served a warrant on this property, 621 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: all you know is that you've got a body that's 622 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 2: wrapped in a bag. You haven't hooked anybody up on 623 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 2: charges at so you have to collect. You're trying to 624 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 2: build a case and build it out. But daved I 625 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: got tell you when they finally got those bags off 626 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: of this poor woman's body, who, by the way, I 627 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: haven't said this. You know she was a retired engineer 628 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 2: for Verizon. 629 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: I know that. 630 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: And she's nobody's fool. 631 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: No, that is think. 632 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 3: She was such a nice She's nice, brilliant, took care 633 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 3: of herself, took care of her parents, took care of 634 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 3: her money. And then here comes her thirteen month old 635 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 3: you know the difference in age thirteen months yeah, yeah, 636 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 3: and Deborah was thirteen months older than Karen. Karen was 637 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 3: professional and was just wonderful and everybody loved her and 638 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 3: then never do well, Deborah shows up and it all 639 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 3: goes to hell in a handbasket. 640 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: You're right, Dave, it does. It goes downhill really quickly. 641 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 2: When this I don't know. I don't know how to 642 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 2: put it. This human leech shows up, because that's kind 643 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: of the way it feels at this point in Tom. 644 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 2: You know when you can tell that. I think anytime 645 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:06,439 Speaker 2: you can learn a lot about a person that perpetrates 646 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 2: a homicide by the way they treat remains. This seems 647 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 2: to be rather frenzied. I would think maybe spontaneous. It 648 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 2: happened in a flash. And you know when she when 649 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 2: she was killed, Karen still had a necklace around her 650 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 2: neck with the name Karen on it. So in the 651 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: course of this crime and the cocooning of her body, 652 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 2: there was no effort to try to take eyes off 653 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 2: of who this was. Because granted, listen, I know that 654 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 2: many people think that when you see a necklace that 655 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 2: says Karen on it, that's a positive idea. I don't 656 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 2: trust things like that. I have to have it scientifically 657 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 2: verified because too many times I've personally been burned. There 658 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 2: are other people that have been burned, and you have 659 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 2: to take doe care with all of this. That's very 660 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 2: important and in this particular case, when they finally got 661 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: Karen's body out of this these bags got the tape detached. 662 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 2: She sustained a single gsw to the chest. And you know, 663 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 2: just think about this woman's lovely woman that has and 664 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 2: she shot like an animal, yep, and then her remains 665 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 2: are treated like she's an animal and buried literally adjacent 666 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 2: to this place that she loves. I guess that you know, 667 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 2: there's nothing ironic about it, but you have to look 668 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 2: at it and you think, you know, all of this 669 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 2: love and care that she's put into this home, she's created, 670 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 2: the care that she gave to her parents, the beautiful 671 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 2: garden that she had, she worked in daily, she worked 672 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 2: toward retirement. Anybody that gets to retirement, God bless everybody 673 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 2: out there. You know what a labor this is. And 674 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 2: to have it all just taken from her in a 675 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 2: flash because somebody is jealous of her, somebody has got 676 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 2: issues with her that cannot live their own life on 677 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 2: their own. 678 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 3: Dave, I'm you know you you actually laid it all 679 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 3: out perfectly. Joe and I did look at something on 680 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 3: this because they never found they being investigators, never found 681 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 3: the murder weapon. They were never able to determine, you know, 682 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 3: what gun was used, what type of gun. But I'm 683 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 3: gonna read you something here. While the specific murder weapon 684 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 3: was not explicitly identified, evidence included DNA from Deborah Patten 685 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 3: on blood covered latex gloves found with the body, and 686 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 3: surveillance footage showing Deborah Patten the shovel. Now, this surveillance 687 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 3: footage was from a next door neighbor, Joe, we should 688 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 3: all have this type of individual as our next door neighbor. 689 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 3: I made a note when I sent this because the 690 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 3: surveillance video from the neighbor was a Hillsboro County deputy 691 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 3: who has this surveillance video showing the victim, Karen, entering 692 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 3: her home on May twenty fourth, twenty twenty one, last 693 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 3: time she is seen alive. The video also depicts Deborah 694 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 3: Patten throwing several large trash bags into the garbage and 695 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 3: shows Deborah Patten walking with a shovel. After everything was 696 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 3: said and done, Joe, Deborah Patton is charged with murder. 697 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 3: But the reason it took so long, and the reason 698 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 3: we're talking about this today, because this just got adjudicated. 699 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 3: It's gone on this long because you cannot you cannot 700 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 3: try somebody who is incompetent stand trial, And over the years, 701 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 3: Devora Patten was deemed incompetent to stand trial. She remained 702 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 3: in the state mental hospital for treatment for a couple 703 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 3: of years. It wasn't until February last year that a 704 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 3: judge ruled Devora Patent competent to stand trial. And when 705 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 3: she finally went to trial last month, the jury did 706 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,959 Speaker 3: not have to deliberate long. I think it was an hour, 707 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 3: and they judged her guilty of second degree murder of 708 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 3: her own little sister, little sister who took care of 709 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 3: her when she had nothing, fed her when she had 710 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 3: no food, gave her a place to stay when she 711 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 3: had nowhere to stay. 712 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 2: Joe. 713 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 3: And by the way, you know what police found, Well, 714 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:14,439 Speaker 3: they found a note written by Deborah Paton describing how 715 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 3: she was going to kill her ex husband in Louisiana, 716 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 3: how she was going to drive there and kill him 717 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:24,280 Speaker 3: and then she was going to kill herself. 718 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: Actually took everybody out. 719 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, Dave, what was really horrific about this? 720 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 2: I think during the period of time, first off, she 721 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,359 Speaker 2: stated to the court that that she was blameless here, Yeah, 722 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 2: blame completely blameless. If that's not bad enough. She smiled 723 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 2: and laughed during this period of tom in court, saying 724 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 2: that she's not blameless, and she offered up some kind 725 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 2: of half hearted prayer that was directed toward the judge, 726 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 2: talked about how the world is populated with evil people, 727 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 2: this sort of thing. Well, on that count, she's right, 728 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 2: because I got to tell you at the end of 729 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 2: the day, Deborah Patten is a glaring example of pure, 730 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 2: unadulterated evil. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags.