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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot Com. All right,

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Speaker 1: talking about lower than projections, let's talk about downgrades to

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Speaker 1: the US economy. We have Carl rick O donaghy is

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Speaker 1: our chief US economist for Bloomberg Intelligence and he joins

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Speaker 1: us here in our eleven three oh studio. Carl, always

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Speaker 1: a pleasure downgrading the US economy. Give us some details. Yes, So,

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Speaker 1: we are just this morning published our updated mid year projections,

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Speaker 1: and we're not changing our outlook for We see the

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Speaker 1: economy growing at about two point or present. However, we

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Speaker 1: did mark down our forecasts. Now, ordinarily that would be

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Speaker 1: more troubling as it would have broader implications. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: clearly you would say, while you're seeing a weaker economy,

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Speaker 1: but really the reason for our downgrade of eighteen was

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Speaker 1: basically erasing Trump and omics from the landscape. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: so we've now assessed that given the prioritization of non

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Speaker 1: economic measures, let's say healthcare repeal UH, and certainly these

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Speaker 1: have economic consequences, but not direct economic policy. So the

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Speaker 1: focus on healthcare, border security, travel bands, etcetera. Is squandering

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Speaker 1: political capital and also valuable days on the legislative calendar,

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Speaker 1: which means that we now are seeing less likelihood of

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Speaker 1: things like comprehensive tax reform at both the household and

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Speaker 1: corporate levels, massive infrastructure spending. Those economic pillars of our

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Speaker 1: main pillars of trumponomics, I think are in serious jeopardy.

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Speaker 1: So I would love to see them come back on

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Speaker 1: the table and we would mark our growth forecast up accordingly.

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Speaker 1: But it just doesn't look like that's going to be

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Speaker 1: the reality, you know, Carl, I'm struck by the fact

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Speaker 1: that you had priced in some of those uh legislative

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Speaker 1: advances earlier in the year, and I'm wondering, as an economist,

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Speaker 1: how difficult is it to come up with some kind

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Speaker 1: of projection when clearly these proposals apparently would have had

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Speaker 1: a very significant impact on how much the country would grow. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: so there was tremendous uncertainty as to whether or not

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Speaker 1: they would be issues that they were clearly major themes

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Speaker 1: on the campaign trail, and it looked like initially there

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Speaker 1: was going to be a lot of motivation to pursue

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Speaker 1: those agenda items. However, the administration pivoted and uh, and

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Speaker 1: certainly we knew that healthcare and border security were going

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Speaker 1: to be priorities as well, but you know, there was

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Speaker 1: a chance that a businessman president would pursue uh, the

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Speaker 1: economic priorities first. Uh, there's reasons for them to go

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Speaker 1: after healthcare because if there are budget savings through healthcare reform,

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Speaker 1: they could incorporate that into their adjustments to budget measures

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Speaker 1: and tax policy. But you know, for whatever reason, they

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Speaker 1: went went the direction they did. And now the discord

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Speaker 1: uh seems to be increasing it certainly among Democrats but

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Speaker 1: also among Republicans. Uh. And so what we had to

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Speaker 1: reassess the likelihood of those measures being incorporated and and

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Speaker 1: you revise of the outlook accordingly. And UH, you know

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Speaker 1: we are not alone in doing this. The FED has

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Speaker 1: continued to grapple with the degree to which they would

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Speaker 1: incorporate the changes to fiscal policy into their forecast. Some

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Speaker 1: some FED members did, some didn't. But now they seem to,

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Speaker 1: at least based on the minutes of the May FOMC meeting, UH,

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Speaker 1: they are shifting back towards UH, anticipating less of a

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Speaker 1: change to fiscal policy. Well, Carl, I just want maybe

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Speaker 1: just pick up on something that that Lisa mentioned and

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Speaker 1: maybe just go one step further, which is the details,

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Speaker 1: the actual numerical details of many of these things that

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Speaker 1: you described, rather than the broad brush strokes. Have we

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Speaker 1: seen any details that would allow an economist or any

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Speaker 1: kind of analytical work done on what this would all

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Speaker 1: mean for the economy? Things were presented with broadbrush strokes,

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Speaker 1: as you note, so why it becomes a best guess

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Speaker 1: type of scenario. We knew the objective for the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: package would be about one trillion dollars spread over ten years,

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Speaker 1: so you can kind of calculate how long it would

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Speaker 1: take for that to get underway. Obviously it doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: with a flip of a switch, so that is something

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Speaker 1: you could at least to some rudimentary level UH model

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Speaker 1: for GDP purposes. And then there were also some parameters

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Speaker 1: laid out in terms of what tax policy would like

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Speaker 1: look like, in what the implications would be just quickly

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Speaker 1: give you twenty seconds PPI producer, Uh inflation, what do

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Speaker 1: we get? P p I is telling us that there's

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Speaker 1: still only moderate price pressures in the inflation pipeline, and

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Speaker 1: this is something policymakers are going to be considering at

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Speaker 1: the meeting as a core inflation. Consumer inflation has disappointed

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Speaker 1: in the last two months, and now it looks like

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Speaker 1: that two percent target maybe a little harder to achieve

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Speaker 1: than they thought earlier this year. All right, I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you very much, Carl Rickadona. Of course, our

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Speaker 1: chief US economist for Bloomberg Intelligence, a downgrade to US

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Speaker 1: economic performance in twenty eighteen because of well, the disappearance

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Speaker 1: of the Trump Economic Agenda from the possibility of having

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Speaker 1: that passed in Congress. Sears Canada suffered its worst stock

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Speaker 1: decline ever after acknowledging significant doubt about its ability to

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Speaker 1: keep operating, leading the troubled department store chain to consider

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Speaker 1: a sale or restructuring. Also today, Sears is cutting four

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Speaker 1: hundred jobs at its Hoffman Estates headquarters. Here to tell

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Speaker 1: us more about retail and also Sears is Mark Cohen.

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Speaker 1: He is a director of Retail Studies, adjunct Professor of

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Speaker 1: Business at Columbia University School of Business, and he is

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Speaker 1: also the former chief executive of Sears Canada. Mark Cohen,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for being with us. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you could just give people a little of your background,

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Speaker 1: because if if you don't know what's going on in retail,

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Speaker 1: nobody does. Because you've been doing this quite a while. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I've been in the retail business most of my adult life.

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Speaker 1: I started to day and s in the early nineteen seventies, UH.

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Speaker 1: Getting a little closer to date, I was the chief

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Speaker 1: marketing officer and president of soft lines for several years

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Speaker 1: at Sears Roebuck in Chicago, and then the chairman and

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Speaker 1: CEO is Canada from two thousand and one through mid

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four. The companies have been in serial decline.

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Speaker 1: In the case of Sears Roebuck, that decline started in

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Speaker 1: two thousand UH when Alan Lacey became CEO, and after

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Speaker 1: five years of failing, he turned the company more or

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Speaker 1: less over to Eddie Lampert, the well known hedge fund

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Speaker 1: operator who has been hollowing both companies out ever since.

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Speaker 1: And so the the ongoing bad news both in the

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Speaker 1: United States and Canada is no surprise retail businesses. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: no business can operate with consecutive losses of enormous consequence

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Speaker 1: with cash flow that only um comes from asset sales. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just want to get a sense when

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Speaker 1: you left Series who were fired right in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four, was the departure over? Was it because you

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Speaker 1: just didn't see a future anymore? Or is it because

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Speaker 1: they just weren't going to take some of the steps

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Speaker 1: that they needed to in order to make it a

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Speaker 1: viable business. Well, you know, this is obviously my view,

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Speaker 1: but I thought the Sears Roebuck CEO was incompetent, and

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Speaker 1: he was reasonably convinced that I was trying to take

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Speaker 1: away his job. I had no ability to do that,

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Speaker 1: but certainly someone should have taken away his job. And

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Speaker 1: so there in lies the conflict that occurred. In the

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Speaker 1: summer of two thousand and four, he had spent six

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Speaker 1: d and five million dollars in cash buying fifty one

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Speaker 1: kmarts from Lampert's newly acquired kmart. And this was the

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Speaker 1: support of strategy which was called Sears Brand, which was

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Speaker 1: a catastrophe and which he was trying to get me

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Speaker 1: to support. In Canada more or less to help legitimize it.

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Speaker 1: So I thought the acquisition of this real estate was nesperious,

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Speaker 1: if you will. And as it turned out, in a

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Speaker 1: matter of speaking, Lampert turned around and used that six

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Speaker 1: five million dollars along with the inflated valuation of his

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Speaker 1: own kmart portfolio, and took possession of Sears Roebuck. So

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a This is a bad ending

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Speaker 1: to a series of really bad events. UM businesses can

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Speaker 1: get into trouble for relatively brief periods of time and

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Speaker 1: extract themselves, but both of these businesses have done nothing

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Speaker 1: on their own behalf to be able to do that. Mark,

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Speaker 1: can you describe whether this in your view, has this

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Speaker 1: been a strategy to build the wealth of any lamport

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Speaker 1: or has it been a strategy to build the health

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Speaker 1: and wealth of Sears. I really can't comment about Lampert's

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Speaker 1: underlying motivation. Maybe for some period of time he did

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Speaker 1: have a view that he could run these businesses in

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Speaker 1: an unconventional way and be successful in his own right.

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Speaker 1: I think early on he discovered that that wasn't viable

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Speaker 1: and has been propping these businesses up for his own

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Speaker 1: benefit and for the benefit of his um investment cohorts.

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Speaker 1: Ever since it has benefit, hasn't it? It remains to

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Speaker 1: be seen, when all is said and done, what his

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Speaker 1: net net investment proceeds will be for all of this

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Speaker 1: effort and for for over all of this time. I

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Speaker 1: really don't know whether he's going to quote unquote come

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Speaker 1: out ahead or not. But it's clear that both businesses

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Speaker 1: are are in terrible shape, continue to be struggling, with

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Speaker 1: no possibility of remediation anytime in the future. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm struck by the fact that people have been saying

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Speaker 1: Series is going to die for about a decade. Why

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Speaker 1: isn't it just going to die? Do you think that

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Speaker 1: there will be anything that will kind of force it

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Speaker 1: to some kind of denu mall? Or well, are we

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Speaker 1: to see it strung along for another decade? And well,

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Speaker 1: it might very well string along. The US business might

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Speaker 1: very well string along for some period of time. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that Canada has that capacity, because the US

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Speaker 1: business still does have some substantial UM assets that can

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Speaker 1: yet be sold off. I mean, the US does still

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Speaker 1: possess a reasonably large portfolio of real estate. The best

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Speaker 1: stores of long ago been um sold off. Cash has

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Speaker 1: long ago been given, ended into Lampard's pockets or used

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Speaker 1: to prop up the company. Um Uh, at some point

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Speaker 1: you do run out of fuel and uh that may

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Speaker 1: be soon or it may be somewhere in the future,

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Speaker 1: but it's clear that both of these business is that

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Speaker 1: completely lost their viability. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: It's good to get a good inside look at what's

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Speaker 1: going on there. Marko and as director of Retail Studies

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Speaker 1: and a Magic Professor of Business at Columbia University Business School,

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Speaker 1: also former Sears Marketing Chief and head of Sears Canada.

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Speaker 1: We hear a lot from investors who are turning their

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Speaker 1: attention more to Europe than the U S, at least

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Speaker 1: when it comes to equity markets. But CEO is clearly

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Speaker 1: have their views set on the US. I want to

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Speaker 1: bring in John V. Meyer. He's Global Chairman of KPMG

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Speaker 1: International based in New York. UH and KPMG just released

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Speaker 1: CEO Outlook report and wow, John, a lot of optimism

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Speaker 1: and a lot of focus on the U S. Can

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Speaker 1: you sort of start by spelling out what you think

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Speaker 1: are the main takeaways from this survey? Sure? Thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me on, Lisa, And you know, I think we

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Speaker 1: start with confidence levels, and one thing that's interesting about

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Speaker 1: our survey we intentionally try and focus on the next

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Speaker 1: three years, so it's intended to be a longer term

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Speaker 1: view on the part of the CEO, since we think

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Speaker 1: that mirrors their investment cycle, hiring cycle, and everything else.

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Speaker 1: UM confidence levels, I would say are a little more

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Speaker 1: subdued from the survey last year, but still relatively high.

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Speaker 1: And frankly, the US is the one market in the

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Speaker 1: world where confidence levels are higher than what was reflected

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Speaker 1: in our survey last year, UH, which is a very

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Speaker 1: positive sign, you know from a US standpoint, But frankly,

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Speaker 1: as you look around Asia, some real um drops frankly

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Speaker 1: in confidence levels of c e o s as they

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Speaker 1: look out over the next two years in some places

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Speaker 1: like Japan, Australia, other places in Asia Pacific. So real

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Speaker 1: mixed bag, depending upon UH where you're based. Well, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned mixed bag, and I want to follow up at

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Speaker 1: that having to do with globalization and the ability of

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Speaker 1: companies to compete around the world, and one if you

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Speaker 1: could speak to that topic and do you believe that

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Speaker 1: the current political climate in the United States will thwart

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Speaker 1: that ongoing trend? Well, you know, it's interesting we ask

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Speaker 1: in our survey a fair number of questions that get

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Speaker 1: you down a geopolitical path, and that is still viewed,

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Speaker 1: I think as a key risk as c e O

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Speaker 1: s look out into the marketplace. UH. And some of

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Speaker 1: the specific feedback we got about geopolitical risk were number

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Speaker 1: one sentiment that over half the CEO is believed that

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Speaker 1: the impact of geopolitical risks on their business are higher

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Speaker 1: today than they ever remember. UH. Secondly, this UM a

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Speaker 1: question about protectionism that we tried to get a sense

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Speaker 1: of given how much you know, discussion there is in

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Speaker 1: the marketplace around and discussion on things like Twitter where

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Speaker 1: you have elected officials using a public platform to name companies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a high percentage over of the c e O

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Speaker 1: s UH indicated that they believe protection ism will be

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Speaker 1: increasing in the near term and over the next three years,

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Speaker 1: which is again concerning given the levels where it already

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Speaker 1: is today, and that's having an impact on decisions CEO

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Speaker 1: s UM say they're evaluating in terms of where to

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Speaker 1: locate operations, and all of these geopolitical factors I think

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Speaker 1: are weighing into investment decisions more now today than they

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Speaker 1: have been at any time that many of these CEOs

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Speaker 1: can remember. Yeah, although one thing that I thought was

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Speaker 1: really notable was on the micro level, and CEOs looked

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Speaker 1: at their businesses, their own businesses, they saw the need

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Speaker 1: to hire more people. And you say that in the survey,

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Speaker 1: it showed that U S CEOs expect had contill grow

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Speaker 1: over the next three years, with eighty percent reporting their

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Speaker 1: investing in recruitment. Uh. This to me is fascinating and

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Speaker 1: speaks to this tight labor market that we keep talking about.

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Speaker 1: Does this, in your opinion, point to salary increases which

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Speaker 1: people have been waiting for. You know, that's a complicated question,

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Speaker 1: I think frankly, Lisa Um, I think the good news

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Speaker 1: is that, again mirroring the confidence levels when we compare

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Speaker 1: the CEOs responses this year till last year, a little

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Speaker 1: less optimism about employment level growth over the next three years,

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Speaker 1: but still I think a pretty good degree of confidence

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Speaker 1: on the part of CEOs that they will be hiring. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and that and that significant levels over six percent growth

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Speaker 1: in their employee levels. The reason that your question is

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Speaker 1: a little complicated is I think it really gets to

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Speaker 1: what kind of skills are we talking about? There is

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Speaker 1: clearly a shortage in the statistic use cited around actively recruiting.

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Speaker 1: That's true, but they're actively recruiting for very specific skills,

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Speaker 1: technology based skills, things like that, where UM like coding

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Speaker 1: or is it something? Is it? Is it pretty broad

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Speaker 1: within the tech anology space. I think it's broader. It

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Speaker 1: gets to ability to analyze data, utilize data and analytics

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Speaker 1: UM take advantage of some of the cognitive UH technologies

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Speaker 1: that companies are now deploying in their organization data scientists

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Speaker 1: to help them synthesize and think through all of this.

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Speaker 1: And uh so, what I'm hearing you saying, it's almost

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Speaker 1: like a split between people with higher education and people not.

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Speaker 1: In other words, people who have have some training with

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Speaker 1: respect to you know, things that are usually taught in

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Speaker 1: college or later in high school. Not necessarily the blue

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Speaker 1: collar jobs, although you know. One of the things that's

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Speaker 1: interesting and frankly surprised me in the survey results is

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Speaker 1: when we asked a specific question about do you believe

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Speaker 1: cognitive technology is going to increase or decrease you're hiring

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Speaker 1: over the next three years, it was overwhelmingly an increase,

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Speaker 1: which I think is counterintuitive to what a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are thinking, and and that was across a fairly

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Speaker 1: wide range of job skills, a lot of traditional finance, marketing, sales.

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Speaker 1: And I think what that talks to is companies looking

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Speaker 1: today to see how am I going to deploy some

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Speaker 1: of these disruptive technologies most effectively to benefit my customer

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Speaker 1: And that's going to take people, uh, helping them figure

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Speaker 1: that out and do that. So I think in the

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Speaker 1: near term this may not be a long term kind

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Speaker 1: of dynamic, but certainly in the near term it appears

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Speaker 1: that some of these disruptive technologies are actually um leading

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Speaker 1: companies to believe they will be increasing headcount. John V. Mar,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for being with US Global Chairman

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Speaker 1: KPMG speaking about kpmg CEO Outlook report. It was a

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Speaker 1: survey of four d US and global A chief executives

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Speaker 1: for their views on their top priorities over the next

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Speaker 1: three years. Turn our attention now to what's going on

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Speaker 1: with markets, and we have James Paulson. He is a

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Speaker 1: former chief investment strategist and economist Wells Capital Management. No,

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Speaker 1: he is you still are three fifty billion dollars previous

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Speaker 1: under management MINT based in Minneapolis, Jim Paulson, You've written

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Speaker 1: that there's a whole lot of consensus opinion, what we

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Speaker 1: might term conventional wisdom, and then you debunk it. I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if you could just go through some of those topics. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's always sort of important to keep an

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Speaker 1: eye on, uh any kind of thoughts that are really

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Speaker 1: strongly and widely held, because it's often they're right, but

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Speaker 1: if they're ever wrong, as you know, you create quite

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Speaker 1: a market change, and so always sort of stay focused

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Speaker 1: in some of those Um overall, I think, um one

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Speaker 1: of them that I find interesting is the idea that's

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Speaker 1: been prevalent throughout this recovery Kim that that wage wage

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Speaker 1: games have been so uh tepid um and that this

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Speaker 1: implies that boy labor is not doing very well and

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Speaker 1: that the consumer must be weak and vulnerable, leaving the

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Speaker 1: leaving the recovery itself in question. And it is true

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Speaker 1: that while nominal wage games have been very low in

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Speaker 1: this recovery, real wage games, what's really important, the purchasing

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Speaker 1: power of labor has really done quite well. It's gone

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Speaker 1: up one point seven percent per annum since the end

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Speaker 1: of the last recovery, and that's been one of the

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Speaker 1: stronger games from real purchasing power that we've had since

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. So I think that that explains a

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Speaker 1: lot better to me why the consumer has done fairly

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Speaker 1: well in this recovery. It's been leading the recovery, the

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Speaker 1: consumer discretionary stocks that lead the stock market. Overall, consumer

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Speaker 1: confidence is high. The dovetails, I think, with a much

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Speaker 1: better uh, real wage growth than what recognized. You know, Jim,

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Speaker 1: I'm struck by the complacency in the market, paired with

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Speaker 1: this idea of the perceived complacency, paired with this idea

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Speaker 1: expressed in the Bank of America Merrill lynch Uh survey

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Speaker 1: of fund managers showing that nearly half of fund managers

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Speaker 1: think that there is bubble like condition. There is a

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Speaker 1: bubble like condition in text stocks. And Jim, over your

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Speaker 1: decades of work at Wells Capital Management, which you left

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Speaker 1: earlier this year, have you ever seen another period of

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Speaker 1: time similar to this one, and which one would you identify? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think I think there's been some similar but not

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Speaker 1: quite like this. You know, Certainly a concentrated move in

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Speaker 1: one section of the market does occur in different times.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's certainly in nifty fifty and the early seventies,

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Speaker 1: the dot com move, other times in the late seventies,

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Speaker 1: early asianal move and energy stocks, a small cap stocks

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Speaker 1: sometimes in the sixties. I mean, there's there's been concentrated

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Speaker 1: movements like we've had in this but I think this

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Speaker 1: stands out is unique and that I don't remember something

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Speaker 1: being it's not even so much concentrate to a sector

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Speaker 1: lease as it is concentrated to just a handful of names,

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Speaker 1: uh that make up a very large portion of the marketplace.

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Speaker 1: Outsize portion by just a handful of stocks is something

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Speaker 1: that's kind of unique. So if you do have I

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Speaker 1: think the overall market is not in that bad of

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Speaker 1: shape from evaluation perspective, but if it's being dominated by

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Speaker 1: you know, five or six stocks that make up a

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Speaker 1: really sizeable portion that are extended, then it can become

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Speaker 1: a market event in a way that it really hasn't

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Speaker 1: in the past. Certainly when we had the nifty fifty

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Speaker 1: that was somewhat like that, but a lot of other

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Speaker 1: stocks are also I think extended words day, it's really

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Speaker 1: concentrated just among a few. There's not a real precedent

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Speaker 1: to have so much valuation risk concentrated amongst so few.

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Speaker 1: Can you speak a little bit, Jim about the historic

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Speaker 1: levels of valuation for let's say the SMP. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that's great pointing another survey way that caught my

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Speaker 1: eye this morning. So there was another Bank American survey

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Speaker 1: that said some record setting proportion of of investors think

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Speaker 1: the market is overvalued by you know, extensively overvalued today,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's interesting. Um uh, if you will.

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Speaker 1: But what I've seen one of the most popular long

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Speaker 1: term valuation methodologies is put out by Robert Schiller. The

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Speaker 1: cape price earnings multiple goes back to eighteen seventy, I believe,

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Speaker 1: And what I find interesting is that in the last

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Speaker 1: quarter century, going back to last twenty five years, based

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Speaker 1: on that really popular cape P motible, that thing has

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Speaker 1: been above it's long term average like percent of the time.

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Speaker 1: It's actually been above the nine percentile evaluation in the

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Speaker 1: last year, uh about half the time. So this has

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Speaker 1: been It is a highly valued market today, and people

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Speaker 1: perceive it that way. But I'm really starting to question

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Speaker 1: it because if something has been overvalued accessively for twenty

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Speaker 1: five years, at what point do you suggest that this

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Speaker 1: this isn't just a one off. It's going to correct,

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Speaker 1: but maybe we're in a new evaluation situation. Jim. I'm

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Speaker 1: struck by how bullish you are, because this is all

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Speaker 1: basically casting some doubts on the pessimism that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: in these surveys and by the increasing amount of cash

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Speaker 1: and people's portfolios. Yeah, it is. I get the valuation risk.

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Speaker 1: I think there's this real valuation risk, but that won't

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Speaker 1: be realized until probably the next recession, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's close. I think it's a ways off. So

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Speaker 1: I think this valuation risk could get more extreme. And

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Speaker 1: I love the fact that we've got a record number

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Speaker 1: of people saying that the markets over valued, that we've

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Speaker 1: got record cash holdings on the sidelines out there, that

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Speaker 1: we have this perpetual there's one tagline for this bowl,

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Speaker 1: it's that it's forever climb the perpetual wall of worry

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Speaker 1: that is still there today. I think there's more upside yet,

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Speaker 1: in part because we don't have enough people playing it

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Speaker 1: in this part. Jim, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: It's always wonderful to hear your insights. Jim Paulson is

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Speaker 1: the former chief investments tragist and economist at Wells Capital Management.

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Speaker 1: He left earlier this year at Wells Capital Management overseas

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Speaker 1: about three billion dollars in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe

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00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever

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00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 1: podcast platform you prefer. I'm Pim Fox. I'm on Twitter

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Speaker 1: at pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's

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Speaker 1: one before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio