WEBVTT - A Theranos Whistleblower 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:23.236 Pushkin. Hey, just a heads up. There's a brief mention 0:00:23.316 --> 0:00:26.556 of sexual assault at around seven minutes into this episode. 0:00:27.036 --> 0:00:40.956 Please take care while listening. I had only worked at 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:43.076 the company for seven months, So now I'm going to 0:00:43.156 --> 0:00:44.996 call my father and I'm going to tell him I 0:00:45.076 --> 0:00:47.836 need to quit a job that I only lasted seven months, 0:00:48.476 --> 0:00:50.956 And at that point I was making more money than 0:00:51.036 --> 0:00:53.996 my dad had made working ten years at the same company. 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:56.316 You know, I had made more money at that job 0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:59.436 than my mom has ever made in her lifetime. So 0:01:00.276 --> 0:01:02.316 you have to explain to them, you know, is it 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:05.156 the case that I'm just a quitter? Like am I 0:01:05.236 --> 0:01:08.156 just basically throwing my hands up and saying like I 0:01:08.196 --> 0:01:13.036 can't handle this. That's Erica Chung, a former scientist at 0:01:13.036 --> 0:01:17.676 the now infamous biotech company Tharonos. Erica realized early on 0:01:17.756 --> 0:01:21.796 that the company's proprietary technology was not delivering accurate blood 0:01:21.796 --> 0:01:24.836 results to patients, but when she raised her concerns to 0:01:24.876 --> 0:01:29.276 company leadership, she was silenced, and so Erica decided to 0:01:29.316 --> 0:01:31.916 not only quit her job at Tharonos, but also to 0:01:31.956 --> 0:01:36.756 report the company to government regulators. This carried huge personal risk. 0:01:37.276 --> 0:01:39.916 She had signed an NDA when she first joined the company, 0:01:40.236 --> 0:01:44.036 and so she feared litigation and criminal charges, but Erica 0:01:44.076 --> 0:01:48.316 saw no other option. Honestly, Maya the idea of knowing 0:01:48.476 --> 0:01:52.436 what I knew and having not done anything, and knowing 0:01:52.476 --> 0:01:55.676 that there was something that I could have done about 0:01:55.716 --> 0:01:59.316 it and I didn't do anything, Like that's the real prison, right, 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:05.716 Like that's the real purgatory. On today's episode, a Tharonos 0:02:05.756 --> 0:02:11.356 whistleblower shares her story, I'm Maya Shunker, and this is 0:02:11.356 --> 0:02:13.956 a slight change of plans, a show about who we 0:02:14.036 --> 0:02:16.276 are and who we become in the face of a 0:02:16.316 --> 0:02:25.036 big change. In twenty thirteen, Erica Chung was twenty three 0:02:25.076 --> 0:02:28.556 and a senior at UC Berkeley studying molecular and cell biology. 0:02:29.276 --> 0:02:31.516 She wasn't quite sure what she wanted her first job 0:02:31.556 --> 0:02:33.836 to be, but she did know she wanted to do 0:02:33.916 --> 0:02:36.396 something in the sciences that could have a big impact 0:02:36.476 --> 0:02:39.516 on people's lives. So she went to a campus career 0:02:39.596 --> 0:02:41.716 fair and that's where she spotted a booth for the 0:02:41.756 --> 0:02:46.196 company Tharanos. By that time, Pharaonos was making waves in 0:02:46.236 --> 0:02:51.356 the biotech world with its new proprietary technology technology that 0:02:51.396 --> 0:02:53.996 could run a range of blood tests from just one 0:02:54.116 --> 0:02:58.396 single fingerprick of blood and in turn revolutionize access to 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:03.556 healthcare worldwide, or at least that's the story Elizabeth Holmes, 0:03:03.556 --> 0:03:06.436 the founder and CEO of Tharanos, was telling the world. 0:03:07.396 --> 0:03:10.316 Tharonos had already started to roll its devices for use 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:13.356 by patients and providers in clinical settings by the time 0:03:13.476 --> 0:03:16.436 Erica showed up at the job fair that day. Erica 0:03:16.556 --> 0:03:19.316 was so excited by the idea of working at Saranos 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:23.516 and decided to apply. And when they invite you to 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:27.876 come in for an interview, it is with Elizabeth Holmes herself, right, 0:03:27.956 --> 0:03:31.356 and Sonny Bowani, the CEO of the company, Which is 0:03:31.396 --> 0:03:34.116 pretty extraordinary, right for someone coming out of college to 0:03:34.156 --> 0:03:37.076 have an interview with the CEO and founder of the company. 0:03:37.556 --> 0:03:40.476 What do you remember from meeting both of them? The 0:03:40.556 --> 0:03:44.356 first interview was with Sonny and I remember, just right 0:03:44.436 --> 0:03:46.876 off the gate, him looking at my resume and at 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:49.156 this point, I'm really eager to get this job, and 0:03:49.396 --> 0:03:54.956 him just really tearing into my resume and kind of 0:03:54.996 --> 0:03:57.916 being a little stern and straightforward with me, and I'm like, 0:03:57.956 --> 0:03:59.636 how am I going to turn this around? Like, I 0:03:59.636 --> 0:04:01.316 don't know if I'm going to get this job with 0:04:01.396 --> 0:04:03.876 the way that this person's questioning me. But then I 0:04:03.996 --> 0:04:07.556 kind of just said, you know, I'm really excited to 0:04:07.596 --> 0:04:10.476 work with Saranos. I've been very press with Elizabeth Holmes 0:04:10.956 --> 0:04:14.156 and what she's managed to accomplish at such a young age, 0:04:14.196 --> 0:04:17.356 and it was amazing seeing his demeanor just shift really quickly. 0:04:17.636 --> 0:04:21.116 And from that moment then he's like, Okay, you know, 0:04:21.156 --> 0:04:24.236 it sounds like you'll be a good addition to our team, 0:04:24.236 --> 0:04:26.476 and I want you to meet one other person. And 0:04:26.556 --> 0:04:29.436 so after that I was able to then start speaking 0:04:29.436 --> 0:04:32.396 with Elizabeth. And so what was it like to meet 0:04:32.436 --> 0:04:35.076 Elizabeth Holmes? So initially when she came in, I think 0:04:35.116 --> 0:04:37.916 I was so starstruck. I had gotten so immersed in 0:04:38.316 --> 0:04:40.596 the very little of her world that I knew, but 0:04:40.676 --> 0:04:42.836 everything that was at least on the Internet at the time, 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:46.836 which was very sparse, was really impressive. So I saw her, 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:50.436 I was, you know, surprised that she was going to 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:52.516 be the person that I'd be talking to in order 0:04:52.556 --> 0:04:57.436 to get this job. And I remember asking her questions 0:04:57.436 --> 0:04:59.996 about the technology and what we would be working on, 0:05:00.076 --> 0:05:01.956 and she said, well, when you work for the company, 0:05:02.396 --> 0:05:04.236 you know, I'll be able to disclose that, but for now, 0:05:04.276 --> 0:05:07.996 that's guarded under trade secrets. But yeah, I was really 0:05:07.996 --> 0:05:11.316 starstruck and just enthusiastic and excited the fact that I 0:05:11.436 --> 0:05:14.996 got to work on what seemed to be cool technology 0:05:15.876 --> 0:05:17.836 with a mission that I really cared about, and for 0:05:17.876 --> 0:05:19.796 a founder at that time that I seemed to be 0:05:19.916 --> 0:05:23.876 very impressed by by the amount of work that, at 0:05:23.916 --> 0:05:27.636 least on the surface, they seemed to accomplish already. You know, 0:05:27.716 --> 0:05:30.916 it's putting myself in your shoes. I can't imagine how 0:05:30.916 --> 0:05:33.756 exciting it must be to get a job offer from 0:05:33.756 --> 0:05:37.356 one of the hottest startups at the time. I'm curious 0:05:37.396 --> 0:05:40.236 to know what this job offer means to you and 0:05:40.276 --> 0:05:43.156 your family at this point in time. I think for 0:05:43.356 --> 0:05:49.036 me personally, it was my journey to even get into college, 0:05:49.156 --> 0:05:52.116 let alone go through college, was very challenging, and so 0:05:52.156 --> 0:05:55.836 I really saw Farness as my own personal kind of 0:05:55.836 --> 0:05:59.236 redemption story to show people like I was confident, I 0:05:59.276 --> 0:06:02.556 was capable, that I had this great, amazing opportunity to 0:06:02.596 --> 0:06:06.156 make an impact working for a great person and everything else. 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:08.556 And so when I had gotten this job offer, my 0:06:08.636 --> 0:06:11.196 parents were proud, you know, they were excited for me 0:06:11.316 --> 0:06:15.756 that this was my first in road to my career. 0:06:16.956 --> 0:06:20.796 He mentioned having a tough time before all of this 0:06:20.916 --> 0:06:25.196 team mind sharing. Yeah, so, you know, I grew up 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:28.316 in a humble beginnings. I grew up in a low 0:06:28.356 --> 0:06:32.516 income neighborhood. I lived with my mom and my dad 0:06:32.636 --> 0:06:35.356 and my three other siblings and a one bedroom trailer. 0:06:36.316 --> 0:06:40.236 It was clear to us that it may be difficult 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:43.036 to get into a great school. I really wanted to 0:06:43.036 --> 0:06:46.556 go to Berkeley. Not being able to afford the same 0:06:47.836 --> 0:06:51.236 access to good schools, so I was homeschooled. So my 0:06:51.276 --> 0:06:54.236 parents invested a lot in my education. Both my parents 0:06:54.236 --> 0:06:58.476 were really hard workers, but you know, we struggled, especially 0:06:58.476 --> 0:07:01.916 in the early days of trying to just figure out 0:07:01.916 --> 0:07:05.556 how to build up a life, especially because my parents 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:10.156 had me really young. And Yeah, when I got to Berkeley, 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:13.756 it was this like huge accomplishment because it wasn't very 0:07:13.796 --> 0:07:15.476 clear if I was going to be able to do that. 0:07:16.396 --> 0:07:20.556 And when I got there, it was one of the 0:07:20.556 --> 0:07:22.796 most beautiful experiences of my life. But I had a 0:07:22.876 --> 0:07:27.196 lot of challenges within the first year of attending UC Berkeley. 0:07:29.156 --> 0:07:31.996 So the first year that I was there, I ended 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:38.156 up falling victim to a series of crimes. I was 0:07:38.876 --> 0:07:42.836 sexually assaulted by a group of men. I got robbed 0:07:42.836 --> 0:07:46.116 at gunpoint, and then I was raped, and it hit 0:07:46.836 --> 0:07:50.476 probably with all in a year time span, and I 0:07:50.556 --> 0:07:53.076 largely kept its secret from people because I didn't want 0:07:53.076 --> 0:07:55.676 to be a burden and I was uncomfortable and I 0:07:55.716 --> 0:07:58.476 was just scared and felt very threatened. I didn't really 0:07:58.476 --> 0:08:01.356 talk to anyone about it, and about a year in 0:08:01.916 --> 0:08:07.356 I was really having a lot of problems just with 0:08:07.436 --> 0:08:12.276 panic attacks and what later would be diagnosed as PTSD, 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:14.236 but but we weren't very clear on what it was 0:08:14.276 --> 0:08:17.956 at the time because I wasn't really communicating with people 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:20.356 that these things had happened to me when I was eighteen. 0:08:24.436 --> 0:08:32.396 Well sorry, I'm just taking that in and so, so 0:08:32.476 --> 0:08:36.156 you're struggling with panic attacks, and I'm assuming what that 0:08:36.196 --> 0:08:38.956 means is a certain point, you're not sure that you're 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:42.636 going to be able to graduate from Berkeley. Yeah, so essentially, 0:08:42.676 --> 0:08:46.196 I'm I'm having panic attacks. I'm definitely not in the 0:08:46.276 --> 0:08:51.436 strongest mental state. My grades are really suffering. I wasn't 0:08:51.436 --> 0:08:53.876 sure if I'd be cut out for the sciences because 0:08:53.876 --> 0:08:55.916 I was like, Okay, you're having such a tough time 0:08:55.996 --> 0:08:58.756 doing simple things like getting to class, on time. How 0:08:58.796 --> 0:09:01.156 are you gonna, you know, accomplish doing some sort of 0:09:01.196 --> 0:09:06.076 complicated chemistry class. But I told myself, you know what, 0:09:06.516 --> 0:09:08.436 if they kick you out, then they kick you out. 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:10.516 But for now, you just need to try and see 0:09:10.556 --> 0:09:13.556 this through and see where you get with things. I 0:09:13.636 --> 0:09:15.756 want to be able to study the sciences as something 0:09:15.796 --> 0:09:19.596 I'm passionate about. And luckily I saw it through. And 0:09:19.716 --> 0:09:23.236 I wasn't the best student, and I failed more classes 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:27.956 than anyone would ever want to, but I made it. 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:31.196 I repeated those classes. I stuck to my commitments. I said, okay, 0:09:31.276 --> 0:09:33.316 let's just try and see this through. And so when 0:09:33.316 --> 0:09:35.876 I say Parados was this redemption story for me. It 0:09:35.916 --> 0:09:38.236 was my opportunity to say, Okay, you didn't do so 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:41.036 well when you're at university, but you know, you can 0:09:41.116 --> 0:09:44.156 start new here and you can be a good scientist 0:09:44.156 --> 0:09:47.196 and a good researcher if you just apply yourself and 0:09:48.236 --> 0:09:49.956 work for a great company that has a lot of 0:09:49.956 --> 0:09:53.036 opportunities for you. And that's kind of where that was 0:09:53.076 --> 0:09:56.916 coming from. Was Okay, here we go. Set the scene 0:09:56.916 --> 0:10:00.596 for me about what your first day at Parados is. Like, 0:10:00.756 --> 0:10:05.156 I mean, against everything you've just described, I was so excited. 0:10:05.476 --> 0:10:09.916 I was so excited. It's it's hard to put into words, 0:10:10.476 --> 0:10:13.036 like that dream like state that you're in when you 0:10:13.156 --> 0:10:15.676 finally made it, you know, where you feel at least 0:10:15.676 --> 0:10:18.836 that you finally made it. And I remember because Baroness 0:10:18.876 --> 0:10:22.316 had so many blockades from going into certain rooms, so 0:10:22.356 --> 0:10:26.476 you couldn't see from the external what the office building 0:10:26.596 --> 0:10:29.076 was like or what the laboratories were like. So I 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:31.676 remember when I got and did the entry interview and 0:10:31.716 --> 0:10:33.956 I got my badge where I could open all of 0:10:33.956 --> 0:10:36.356 these doors where I could see Sonny and Elizabeth in 0:10:36.396 --> 0:10:39.796 their glass offices, or I could go down into the 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:43.316 laboratory and swipe in and be able to see all 0:10:43.356 --> 0:10:45.556 the different machinery of everything. It was. I had so 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:48.996 much enthusiasm and so much excitement, and yeah, you're getting 0:10:48.996 --> 0:10:53.236 the key to this private club, this exclusive club, right exactly, 0:10:53.276 --> 0:10:57.436 this exclusive club, and yeah, I just had so much excitement. Really, 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:00.276 at the early days of Tharoness, I really anticipated that 0:11:00.316 --> 0:11:03.716 this was a company in a project that I could 0:11:03.756 --> 0:11:06.916 easily see myself spending the next decade working on. Like 0:11:06.956 --> 0:11:10.516 that's how much I really was invested in the problem, 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:14.516 how much I loved the field of blood testing, like 0:11:14.556 --> 0:11:19.076 I really was thinking that this was going to be 0:11:19.236 --> 0:11:26.116 like a next huge chapter of my life. So about 0:11:27.036 --> 0:11:29.996 a month into your time at Tharanos, the Huneymoon period 0:11:30.036 --> 0:11:32.316 starts coming to an end. Right, you start to notice 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:36.836 significant ethical problems with the way that Tharanos is conducting 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:40.116 its scientific research. And I'm wondering if you could tell 0:11:40.116 --> 0:11:42.356 me a bit more about some of those red flags. 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:46.116 So initially, when I started at Tharanos, I worked in 0:11:46.116 --> 0:11:48.596 the research and development lab as a lab associate, and 0:11:48.636 --> 0:11:50.996 then they were trying to integrate me into a clinical 0:11:51.036 --> 0:11:55.036 setting where you actively process patient samples. And so one 0:11:55.116 --> 0:11:58.556 day on Thanksgiving, I was asked to work and we 0:11:58.596 --> 0:12:01.076 managed to get a patient from Walgreens who came in. 0:12:01.756 --> 0:12:04.756 And so, prior to running a patient sample, you have 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:08.516 to do something called quality control testing. And quality control 0:12:08.556 --> 0:12:13.356 testing is essentially I have a sample where I know 0:12:13.396 --> 0:12:16.356 what the value is. So let's say the value is ten, 0:12:16.796 --> 0:12:20.196 and I'll run it on my machine and ideally it 0:12:20.236 --> 0:12:23.796 comes out something close to ten. So prior to running 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:28.396 this Thanksgiving patient sample, I ran this sample and it 0:12:28.436 --> 0:12:30.956 was coming out like one hundred and fifty and it 0:12:30.996 --> 0:12:34.156 was coming out like twenty and thirty five and I 0:12:34.156 --> 0:12:37.116 had ran it like three separate times and it was 0:12:37.156 --> 0:12:41.996 all variable results. And so I contacted this helpline called 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:44.636 Normandy nine one one, which was an internal helpline that 0:12:44.676 --> 0:12:49.396 we had that contacted Elizabeth Sonny all of the upper scientists, 0:12:50.076 --> 0:12:52.476 and we were trying to figure out what was the problem, 0:12:52.476 --> 0:12:57.356 why was this failing? And sometimes when the THEREINOS devices 0:12:57.596 --> 0:13:02.796 weren't showing good accuracy, people would start doing this process 0:13:02.836 --> 0:13:06.876 called deleting outliers, like, oh, well, delete that one and 0:13:07.116 --> 0:13:10.196 see what the accuracy rate looks like. And I was 0:13:10.236 --> 0:13:12.356 like okay, and then oh no, delete that one, or 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:14.556 excision that one. I mean, they were essentially defining an 0:13:14.596 --> 0:13:18.996 outlier as something that didn't conform to their desired outcome. Yes, 0:13:19.116 --> 0:13:21.836 which is insane, and that's not what an outlier is. 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:27.396 So that is good science. One on one, dude, science 0:13:27.396 --> 0:13:30.156 one on one. You keep oh it, just keep the data, 0:13:30.316 --> 0:13:33.396 just keep it there. Yes. And so the solution that 0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:36.716 they came up with was essentially to get another lower 0:13:36.796 --> 0:13:39.676 level lab associate who had about maybe a year more 0:13:39.756 --> 0:13:43.076 experience to me. She looked at the data and she 0:13:43.196 --> 0:13:46.876 deleted the outliers for this and managed to get the 0:13:46.996 --> 0:13:49.916 quality controls the past, she ran the patient sample and 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:52.356 then they sent it out. And I'm looking at this 0:13:52.436 --> 0:13:54.796 practice and I keep trying to ask people, like, what 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:58.196 is this process of outlier deletion? Because everything in my 0:13:58.236 --> 0:14:01.076 mind tells me when it comes to running experiments, you 0:14:01.156 --> 0:14:04.596 keep everything, even if it makes it the case that 0:14:04.876 --> 0:14:09.036 the accuracy isn't good or whatever else. They are very 0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:12.956 very very rare occasions that you delete things. You just 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:17.436 maintain the integrity of the data, because that's again, that's 0:14:17.436 --> 0:14:20.516 the beauty of science, right is to be objective with 0:14:20.556 --> 0:14:24.716 the information and to be able to see the true 0:14:24.796 --> 0:14:29.796 reality of what it's what's going on. And that was 0:14:29.836 --> 0:14:33.116 a practice that was very concerning to me because I 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:38.556 realized that once you start doing that, you start making 0:14:38.676 --> 0:14:41.196 things appear to be one thing when that might not 0:14:41.316 --> 0:14:45.716 actually be the truth. And these results are being sent 0:14:45.876 --> 0:14:50.276 to patients and providers, it is actually informing care. It's 0:14:50.316 --> 0:14:53.996 informing what medications you give a patient, it's it's informing 0:14:54.036 --> 0:14:57.116 their entire treatment process, it's informing their psychological well being 0:14:57.396 --> 0:14:59.636 exactly right when they think they have something and they don't, 0:14:59.756 --> 0:15:03.036 or vice versa, exactly. To give you an example of 0:15:03.196 --> 0:15:06.036 the distress that sometimes getting a bad result. There was 0:15:06.116 --> 0:15:09.076 a colleague of mine and she did a total testosterone 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:12.836 test and for women, they tend to have lowered sstone levels, 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:15.356 and so she had done one on the Edison devices, 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:20.036 which was Thereinosa's proprietary machine, and it came out extremely high. 0:15:20.076 --> 0:15:22.236 She was in her early twenties. She's looking at this. 0:15:22.436 --> 0:15:24.636 Of course, she goes on the internet what does this mean? 0:15:24.956 --> 0:15:28.316 And it means potentially she could be infertile. So imagine 0:15:28.316 --> 0:15:30.916 you're in your early twenties, it's before you're even thinking 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:33.556 about having children at this point, you're just starting your career. 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:35.636 You get this blood test and it's telling you you're 0:15:35.676 --> 0:15:39.076 potentially infertile, and the sort of like shock that that 0:15:39.116 --> 0:15:43.716 could be that now you have this whole consideration about, 0:15:43.876 --> 0:15:46.956 well do I have to start thinking about having kids 0:15:46.956 --> 0:15:49.596 tomorrow or freezing my eggs in like the next year 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:53.156 because of this test. And so there were real consequences 0:15:53.196 --> 0:15:57.996 to basically getting this information that was false, and so 0:15:58.036 --> 0:16:02.756 it was it was quite scary because again I'm no 0:16:02.796 --> 0:16:06.196 longer a scientist at my lab bench, just tinkering around 0:16:06.276 --> 0:16:09.476 trying to troubleshoot figure things out as I go, I'm 0:16:09.596 --> 0:16:15.796 actively now testing on patients, and that is just such 0:16:15.836 --> 0:16:22.156 a different responsibility and different perspective. And so I think 0:16:22.196 --> 0:16:26.996 for me, it really made me uncomfortable because I was like, 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:30.156 this isn't ready, This isn't ready to start testing on patients. 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.396 There's just too many issues and the stakes are a 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:38.836 bit too high. So Erica, I mean, you're bold. You 0:16:39.236 --> 0:16:41.876 do not hold back when it comes to vocalizing to 0:16:41.956 --> 0:16:45.756 your higher ups repeatedly right that you don't believe patient 0:16:45.796 --> 0:16:50.156 blood sample should be run on the Tharnis device. And Sonny, 0:16:50.276 --> 0:16:53.436 who is Elizabeth's second in command, he gets wind of 0:16:53.436 --> 0:16:56.836 your resistance and one day confronts you in his office 0:16:56.876 --> 0:17:01.356 about it. Yeah, how does that conversation unfold? So initially 0:17:01.516 --> 0:17:03.596 he invites me into his office and he asked me 0:17:03.716 --> 0:17:05.676 the simple question like how do you like working at 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:08.236 the Ainos? And I was like, you know, I really 0:17:08.236 --> 0:17:10.356 love the mission of this company. I like what we're 0:17:10.356 --> 0:17:13.156 trying to accomplish, but I see a lot of problems. 0:17:13.396 --> 0:17:16.436 We're having problems with these quality control failures, but we're 0:17:16.476 --> 0:17:22.436 still testing patients. And after I finished saying that, he says, well, 0:17:22.676 --> 0:17:26.036 what makes you qualified to say that you're a recent 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:30.596 graduate from UC Berkeley, and you have no visibility in 0:17:30.596 --> 0:17:34.236 this company. Why do you think that's true? And have 0:17:34.316 --> 0:17:38.196 you ever taken a statist sixth class? And you need 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:41.676 to essentially make a decision by tomorrow. You need to 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:43.316 tell me do you still want to work for this 0:17:43.356 --> 0:17:45.756 company or not? And if you want to work for 0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:49.236 this company, you need to test patient samples without question 0:17:49.756 --> 0:17:51.356 and do the job that I pay you to do. 0:17:52.596 --> 0:17:55.036 And I was shocked at this point. I was like, 0:17:55.076 --> 0:17:57.796 I can't even believe this, right because at this point 0:17:57.836 --> 0:18:00.316 in the company, I was operating with a sense of 0:18:00.356 --> 0:18:02.836 good faith. Maybe it was the case that there was 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:07.316 some sort of miscommunication between what was happening at the 0:18:07.396 --> 0:18:11.876 operational floor in the executive level management, and somehow they 0:18:11.996 --> 0:18:16.796 weren't seeing what everyone all the operators were seeing. And 0:18:16.876 --> 0:18:20.636 at that moment I realized, oh no, there's something different 0:18:20.716 --> 0:18:23.396 going on here. And it was so weird too, when 0:18:23.796 --> 0:18:25.796 I think the other thing that was very scary about 0:18:25.796 --> 0:18:27.836 it is like I was on their team. You know, 0:18:27.916 --> 0:18:30.356 I work for this company, I'm working sixteen hour days, 0:18:30.396 --> 0:18:33.316 I'm sleeping in my car sometimes, and the fact that 0:18:33.476 --> 0:18:35.956 someone who is on your team that you are going 0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:40.036 to attack when they tell you, I'm bringing this problem 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:42.316 to you because it needs to be fixed. I'm not 0:18:42.396 --> 0:18:47.036 bringing this problem to you because of anything adversarial. And 0:18:47.076 --> 0:18:50.436 I think that also completely changed the dynamic for me 0:18:50.636 --> 0:18:54.756 of oh, there's not much you can do here right now, 0:18:55.156 --> 0:18:58.956 it's the case that this person sees you as a villain, 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:02.116 as a competitor, as something else, when it's like, I've 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:05.516 done nothing but show that I want to see this 0:19:05.556 --> 0:19:07.956 work too, but not at this cost, not at the 0:19:08.036 --> 0:19:12.316 cost of potential actually violating even our own internal standard, 0:19:12.356 --> 0:19:15.556 which is to provide quality care to patients. Right Like, 0:19:15.596 --> 0:19:18.116 there's just no way. It just doesn't make sense at 0:19:18.156 --> 0:19:22.676 all to me. So I think from that perspective, it 0:19:22.716 --> 0:19:25.276 was just so jarring, right, it was so jarring to 0:19:25.316 --> 0:19:29.796 watch someone act like outside of the own interests of 0:19:29.836 --> 0:19:33.716 the organization. Even at that point. You're twenty three at 0:19:33.756 --> 0:19:36.356 the time that you're having this conversation with Sonny, and 0:19:37.636 --> 0:19:39.636 I just want to enter your psychology for a bit, 0:19:39.756 --> 0:19:44.516 because on the one hand, the scientific integrity alarm bells 0:19:44.516 --> 0:19:48.396 are out of control. But then on the other hand, 0:19:49.356 --> 0:19:53.156 when you are young and relatively inexperienced and there's this 0:19:53.196 --> 0:19:57.796 big chorus that's singing the company's praises and is validating 0:19:57.836 --> 0:20:00.996 the work that's happening behind the scenes. It's so easy 0:20:01.036 --> 0:20:04.636 to second guess yourself, right, Like in another environment, things 0:20:04.636 --> 0:20:08.316 that are so obviously true, things that are so obviously wrong. 0:20:08.516 --> 0:20:11.996 In this case, you might get confused about and so 0:20:12.036 --> 0:20:14.156 did you go through any do you have to face 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:16.996 any of those insecurities or second guessing all the time? 0:20:17.276 --> 0:20:19.996 You know, all the time, because I was very conscious 0:20:19.996 --> 0:20:22.316 of the fact that I was young and that I 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:24.876 may not have been seeing the full picture, or that 0:20:24.956 --> 0:20:29.076 I didn't have this background. And I think, honestly, the 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:32.316 beauty even of that doubt is it really made me 0:20:32.476 --> 0:20:35.516 put a lot of effort into running experiments where it's 0:20:35.516 --> 0:20:37.836 like you can't fight the numbers. Sometimes you really can't 0:20:37.876 --> 0:20:41.116 fight the evidence, you know. I wish in retrospect that 0:20:41.156 --> 0:20:43.276 I had a little more confidence in myself, but I 0:20:43.276 --> 0:20:45.636 think that also comes with age. Right, this was my 0:20:45.716 --> 0:20:48.956 first job out of college, Like, it's very hard to 0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:52.236 think that you know everything. I do want to challenge 0:20:52.276 --> 0:20:54.116 that a little bit, Erica, because I actually think a 0:20:54.156 --> 0:20:57.356 hallmark of a good scientist is someone who does question themselves, 0:20:57.796 --> 0:21:01.356 who approaches what they do with a profound amount of humility. 0:21:01.516 --> 0:21:03.436 I mean, it's kind of what's required to be good 0:21:03.476 --> 0:21:05.556 at this. So yes, do I hope you are like 0:21:05.636 --> 0:21:09.036 blindly confident. Sure, but it made your psychological journey easier. 0:21:09.116 --> 0:21:10.876 But then you wouldn't have been a scientist at heart, 0:21:10.916 --> 0:21:13.716 which is like wanting to generate evidence, wanting to build 0:21:13.716 --> 0:21:16.396 the empirical case. Yeah, thank you Maya for pointing that 0:21:16.476 --> 0:21:18.476 that is very true. That is very true, and I 0:21:18.516 --> 0:21:21.396 think that led to some of the frustration of working 0:21:22.476 --> 0:21:25.716 for Sarinos, was the fact anytime you challenged everything, it 0:21:25.796 --> 0:21:30.596 became something that was in an attack, and it's like, 0:21:30.636 --> 0:21:33.276 this isn't an attack, this is the process, this is 0:21:33.356 --> 0:21:39.276 the scientific process totally. So Erica, you're you leave this 0:21:39.396 --> 0:21:43.356 meeting with Sonny, You've now had this realization that there 0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:46.876 actually is no chasm between what's happening in the labs 0:21:46.876 --> 0:21:49.356 and what the company executives know. They know full well 0:21:49.396 --> 0:21:51.996 what's happening, and they're actually just trying to intimidate you 0:21:52.076 --> 0:21:55.676 out of being honest about what's going on behind the scenes. 0:21:55.676 --> 0:21:59.076 They're trying to discourage you from being a critical thinker 0:21:59.356 --> 0:22:05.076 who's trying to actually improve the end product, and and 0:22:05.076 --> 0:22:07.476 then you end up calling your dad later that day 0:22:07.596 --> 0:22:11.996 to tell him, my dad, you know, I'm uncomfortable working 0:22:11.996 --> 0:22:15.716 at Farnos. Like, here's what's going on. And given what 0:22:15.716 --> 0:22:18.276 you've already shared about your upbringing in what this job 0:22:18.356 --> 0:22:21.316 meant for your family, what was it like to have 0:22:21.396 --> 0:22:25.036 that call? Erica? It was hard. It was hard. It 0:22:25.076 --> 0:22:27.596 was hard for so many reasons. Right, it was hard 0:22:27.756 --> 0:22:30.956 because I had only worked at the company for seven months. 0:22:30.996 --> 0:22:32.796 So now I'm going to call my father and I'm 0:22:32.796 --> 0:22:34.596 going to tell him I need to quit a job 0:22:34.916 --> 0:22:38.196 that I only lasted seven months, and at that point, 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:40.556 I was making more money than my dad had made 0:22:40.596 --> 0:22:43.276 working ten years at the same company. You know, I 0:22:43.276 --> 0:22:45.756 had made more money at that job than my mom 0:22:45.756 --> 0:22:49.356 has ever made in her lifetime. So you have to 0:22:49.356 --> 0:22:51.556 explain to them, you know, is it the case that 0:22:51.636 --> 0:22:55.356 I'm just a quitter? Like am I just basically throwing 0:22:55.356 --> 0:22:57.556 my hands up and saying like I can't handle this? 0:22:59.236 --> 0:23:02.956 And not only that, but it just yeah, it was 0:23:02.996 --> 0:23:07.556 just difficult to know how to navigate the situation because 0:23:07.596 --> 0:23:10.116 it was so bizarre, Right, it was strange, Like, there's 0:23:10.156 --> 0:23:12.916 no not a lot of people could fundamentally understand what 0:23:13.036 --> 0:23:16.356 it's like to be in an organization that treats you 0:23:16.396 --> 0:23:20.556 this way, and you're in such a toxic culture that 0:23:20.636 --> 0:23:25.436 it's hard to even think normally at that point because 0:23:25.476 --> 0:23:28.396 it's so bizarre to be in that context. And so 0:23:29.156 --> 0:23:31.636 luckily my dad responded with like the best thing he 0:23:31.676 --> 0:23:34.556