1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:23,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, just a heads up. There's a brief mention 2 00:00:23,316 --> 00:00:26,556 Speaker 1: of sexual assault at around seven minutes into this episode. 3 00:00:27,036 --> 00:00:40,956 Speaker 1: Please take care while listening. I had only worked at 4 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 1: the company for seven months, So now I'm going to 5 00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:44,996 Speaker 1: call my father and I'm going to tell him I 6 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:47,836 Speaker 1: need to quit a job that I only lasted seven months, 7 00:00:48,476 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 1: And at that point I was making more money than 8 00:00:51,036 --> 00:00:53,996 Speaker 1: my dad had made working ten years at the same company. 9 00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:56,316 Speaker 1: You know, I had made more money at that job 10 00:00:56,396 --> 00:00:59,436 Speaker 1: than my mom has ever made in her lifetime. So 11 00:01:00,276 --> 00:01:02,316 Speaker 1: you have to explain to them, you know, is it 12 00:01:02,396 --> 00:01:05,156 Speaker 1: the case that I'm just a quitter? Like am I 13 00:01:05,236 --> 00:01:08,156 Speaker 1: just basically throwing my hands up and saying like I 14 00:01:08,196 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 1: can't handle this. That's Erica Chung, a former scientist at 15 00:01:13,036 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: the now infamous biotech company Tharonos. Erica realized early on 16 00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:21,796 Speaker 1: that the company's proprietary technology was not delivering accurate blood 17 00:01:21,796 --> 00:01:24,836 Speaker 1: results to patients, but when she raised her concerns to 18 00:01:24,876 --> 00:01:29,276 Speaker 1: company leadership, she was silenced, and so Erica decided to 19 00:01:29,316 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: not only quit her job at Tharonos, but also to 20 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: report the company to government regulators. This carried huge personal risk. 21 00:01:37,276 --> 00:01:39,916 Speaker 1: She had signed an NDA when she first joined the company, 22 00:01:40,236 --> 00:01:44,036 Speaker 1: and so she feared litigation and criminal charges, but Erica 23 00:01:44,076 --> 00:01:48,316 Speaker 1: saw no other option. Honestly, Maya the idea of knowing 24 00:01:48,476 --> 00:01:52,436 Speaker 1: what I knew and having not done anything, and knowing 25 00:01:52,476 --> 00:01:55,676 Speaker 1: that there was something that I could have done about 26 00:01:55,716 --> 00:01:59,316 Speaker 1: it and I didn't do anything, Like that's the real prison, right, 27 00:01:59,356 --> 00:02:05,716 Speaker 1: Like that's the real purgatory. On today's episode, a Tharonos 28 00:02:05,756 --> 00:02:11,356 Speaker 1: whistleblower shares her story, I'm Maya Shunker, and this is 29 00:02:11,356 --> 00:02:13,956 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, a show about who we 30 00:02:14,036 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 1: are and who we become in the face of a 31 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 1: big change. In twenty thirteen, Erica Chung was twenty three 32 00:02:25,076 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 1: and a senior at UC Berkeley studying molecular and cell biology. 33 00:02:29,276 --> 00:02:31,516 Speaker 1: She wasn't quite sure what she wanted her first job 34 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:33,836 Speaker 1: to be, but she did know she wanted to do 35 00:02:33,916 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 1: something in the sciences that could have a big impact 36 00:02:36,476 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: on people's lives. So she went to a campus career 37 00:02:39,596 --> 00:02:41,716 Speaker 1: fair and that's where she spotted a booth for the 38 00:02:41,756 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 1: company Tharanos. By that time, Pharaonos was making waves in 39 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:51,356 Speaker 1: the biotech world with its new proprietary technology technology that 40 00:02:51,396 --> 00:02:53,996 Speaker 1: could run a range of blood tests from just one 41 00:02:54,116 --> 00:02:58,396 Speaker 1: single fingerprick of blood and in turn revolutionize access to 42 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 1: healthcare worldwide, or at least that's the story Elizabeth Holmes, 43 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 1: the founder and CEO of Tharanos, was telling the world. 44 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:10,316 Speaker 1: Tharonos had already started to roll its devices for use 45 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:13,356 Speaker 1: by patients and providers in clinical settings by the time 46 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:16,436 Speaker 1: Erica showed up at the job fair that day. Erica 47 00:03:16,556 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 1: was so excited by the idea of working at Saranos 48 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:23,516 Speaker 1: and decided to apply. And when they invite you to 49 00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 1: come in for an interview, it is with Elizabeth Holmes herself, right, 50 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 1: and Sonny Bowani, the CEO of the company, Which is 51 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:34,116 Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary, right for someone coming out of college to 52 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:37,076 Speaker 1: have an interview with the CEO and founder of the company. 53 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 1: What do you remember from meeting both of them? The 54 00:03:40,556 --> 00:03:44,356 Speaker 1: first interview was with Sonny and I remember, just right 55 00:03:44,436 --> 00:03:46,876 Speaker 1: off the gate, him looking at my resume and at 56 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:49,156 Speaker 1: this point, I'm really eager to get this job, and 57 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:54,956 Speaker 1: him just really tearing into my resume and kind of 58 00:03:54,996 --> 00:03:57,916 Speaker 1: being a little stern and straightforward with me, and I'm like, 59 00:03:57,956 --> 00:03:59,636 Speaker 1: how am I going to turn this around? Like, I 60 00:03:59,636 --> 00:04:01,316 Speaker 1: don't know if I'm going to get this job with 61 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:03,876 Speaker 1: the way that this person's questioning me. But then I 62 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:07,556 Speaker 1: kind of just said, you know, I'm really excited to 63 00:04:07,596 --> 00:04:10,476 Speaker 1: work with Saranos. I've been very press with Elizabeth Holmes 64 00:04:10,956 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 1: and what she's managed to accomplish at such a young age, 65 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:17,356 Speaker 1: and it was amazing seeing his demeanor just shift really quickly. 66 00:04:17,636 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: And from that moment then he's like, Okay, you know, 67 00:04:21,156 --> 00:04:24,236 Speaker 1: it sounds like you'll be a good addition to our team, 68 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 1: and I want you to meet one other person. And 69 00:04:26,556 --> 00:04:29,436 Speaker 1: so after that I was able to then start speaking 70 00:04:29,436 --> 00:04:32,396 Speaker 1: with Elizabeth. And so what was it like to meet 71 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:35,076 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes? So initially when she came in, I think 72 00:04:35,116 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: I was so starstruck. I had gotten so immersed in 73 00:04:38,316 --> 00:04:40,596 Speaker 1: the very little of her world that I knew, but 74 00:04:40,676 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 1: everything that was at least on the Internet at the time, 75 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:46,836 Speaker 1: which was very sparse, was really impressive. So I saw her, 76 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 1: I was, you know, surprised that she was going to 77 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:52,516 Speaker 1: be the person that I'd be talking to in order 78 00:04:52,556 --> 00:04:57,436 Speaker 1: to get this job. And I remember asking her questions 79 00:04:57,436 --> 00:04:59,996 Speaker 1: about the technology and what we would be working on, 80 00:05:00,076 --> 00:05:01,956 Speaker 1: and she said, well, when you work for the company, 81 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:04,236 Speaker 1: you know, I'll be able to disclose that, but for now, 82 00:05:04,276 --> 00:05:07,996 Speaker 1: that's guarded under trade secrets. But yeah, I was really 83 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:11,316 Speaker 1: starstruck and just enthusiastic and excited the fact that I 84 00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:14,996 Speaker 1: got to work on what seemed to be cool technology 85 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:17,836 Speaker 1: with a mission that I really cared about, and for 86 00:05:17,876 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 1: a founder at that time that I seemed to be 87 00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:23,876 Speaker 1: very impressed by by the amount of work that, at 88 00:05:23,916 --> 00:05:27,636 Speaker 1: least on the surface, they seemed to accomplish already. You know, 89 00:05:27,716 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 1: it's putting myself in your shoes. I can't imagine how 90 00:05:30,916 --> 00:05:33,756 Speaker 1: exciting it must be to get a job offer from 91 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 1: one of the hottest startups at the time. I'm curious 92 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,236 Speaker 1: to know what this job offer means to you and 93 00:05:40,276 --> 00:05:43,156 Speaker 1: your family at this point in time. I think for 94 00:05:43,356 --> 00:05:49,036 Speaker 1: me personally, it was my journey to even get into college, 95 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:52,116 Speaker 1: let alone go through college, was very challenging, and so 96 00:05:52,156 --> 00:05:55,836 Speaker 1: I really saw Farness as my own personal kind of 97 00:05:55,836 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 1: redemption story to show people like I was confident, I 98 00:05:59,276 --> 00:06:02,556 Speaker 1: was capable, that I had this great, amazing opportunity to 99 00:06:02,596 --> 00:06:06,156 Speaker 1: make an impact working for a great person and everything else. 100 00:06:06,196 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 1: And so when I had gotten this job offer, my 101 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 1: parents were proud, you know, they were excited for me 102 00:06:11,316 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: that this was my first in road to my career. 103 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 1: He mentioned having a tough time before all of this 104 00:06:20,916 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: team mind sharing. Yeah, so, you know, I grew up 105 00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 1: in a humble beginnings. I grew up in a low 106 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:32,516 Speaker 1: income neighborhood. I lived with my mom and my dad 107 00:06:32,636 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 1: and my three other siblings and a one bedroom trailer. 108 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:40,236 Speaker 1: It was clear to us that it may be difficult 109 00:06:40,356 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 1: to get into a great school. I really wanted to 110 00:06:43,036 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: go to Berkeley. Not being able to afford the same 111 00:06:47,836 --> 00:06:51,236 Speaker 1: access to good schools, so I was homeschooled. So my 112 00:06:51,276 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: parents invested a lot in my education. Both my parents 113 00:06:54,236 --> 00:06:58,476 Speaker 1: were really hard workers, but you know, we struggled, especially 114 00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 1: in the early days of trying to just figure out 115 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:05,556 Speaker 1: how to build up a life, especially because my parents 116 00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: had me really young. And Yeah, when I got to Berkeley, 117 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: it was this like huge accomplishment because it wasn't very 118 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:15,476 Speaker 1: clear if I was going to be able to do that. 119 00:07:16,396 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 1: And when I got there, it was one of the 120 00:07:20,556 --> 00:07:22,796 Speaker 1: most beautiful experiences of my life. But I had a 121 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:27,196 Speaker 1: lot of challenges within the first year of attending UC Berkeley. 122 00:07:29,156 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 1: So the first year that I was there, I ended 123 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:38,156 Speaker 1: up falling victim to a series of crimes. I was 124 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:42,836 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted by a group of men. I got robbed 125 00:07:42,836 --> 00:07:46,116 Speaker 1: at gunpoint, and then I was raped, and it hit 126 00:07:46,836 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 1: probably with all in a year time span, and I 127 00:07:50,556 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 1: largely kept its secret from people because I didn't want 128 00:07:53,076 --> 00:07:55,676 Speaker 1: to be a burden and I was uncomfortable and I 129 00:07:55,716 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 1: was just scared and felt very threatened. I didn't really 130 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:01,356 Speaker 1: talk to anyone about it, and about a year in 131 00:08:01,916 --> 00:08:07,356 Speaker 1: I was really having a lot of problems just with 132 00:08:07,436 --> 00:08:12,276 Speaker 1: panic attacks and what later would be diagnosed as PTSD, 133 00:08:12,316 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: but but we weren't very clear on what it was 134 00:08:14,276 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 1: at the time because I wasn't really communicating with people 135 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:20,356 Speaker 1: that these things had happened to me when I was eighteen. 136 00:08:24,436 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 1: Well sorry, I'm just taking that in and so, so 137 00:08:32,476 --> 00:08:36,156 Speaker 1: you're struggling with panic attacks, and I'm assuming what that 138 00:08:36,196 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 1: means is a certain point, you're not sure that you're 139 00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:42,636 Speaker 1: going to be able to graduate from Berkeley. Yeah, so essentially, 140 00:08:42,676 --> 00:08:46,196 Speaker 1: I'm I'm having panic attacks. I'm definitely not in the 141 00:08:46,276 --> 00:08:51,436 Speaker 1: strongest mental state. My grades are really suffering. I wasn't 142 00:08:51,436 --> 00:08:53,876 Speaker 1: sure if I'd be cut out for the sciences because 143 00:08:53,876 --> 00:08:55,916 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, you're having such a tough time 144 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 1: doing simple things like getting to class, on time. How 145 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 1: are you gonna, you know, accomplish doing some sort of 146 00:09:01,196 --> 00:09:06,076 Speaker 1: complicated chemistry class. But I told myself, you know what, 147 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:08,436 Speaker 1: if they kick you out, then they kick you out. 148 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:10,516 Speaker 1: But for now, you just need to try and see 149 00:09:10,556 --> 00:09:13,556 Speaker 1: this through and see where you get with things. I 150 00:09:13,636 --> 00:09:15,756 Speaker 1: want to be able to study the sciences as something 151 00:09:15,796 --> 00:09:19,596 Speaker 1: I'm passionate about. And luckily I saw it through. And 152 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: I wasn't the best student, and I failed more classes 153 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 1: than anyone would ever want to, but I made it. 154 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:31,196 Speaker 1: I repeated those classes. I stuck to my commitments. I said, okay, 155 00:09:31,276 --> 00:09:33,316 Speaker 1: let's just try and see this through. And so when 156 00:09:33,316 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 1: I say Parados was this redemption story for me. It 157 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 1: was my opportunity to say, Okay, you didn't do so 158 00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:41,036 Speaker 1: well when you're at university, but you know, you can 159 00:09:41,116 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 1: start new here and you can be a good scientist 160 00:09:44,156 --> 00:09:47,196 Speaker 1: and a good researcher if you just apply yourself and 161 00:09:48,236 --> 00:09:49,956 Speaker 1: work for a great company that has a lot of 162 00:09:49,956 --> 00:09:53,036 Speaker 1: opportunities for you. And that's kind of where that was 163 00:09:53,076 --> 00:09:56,916 Speaker 1: coming from. Was Okay, here we go. Set the scene 164 00:09:56,916 --> 00:10:00,596 Speaker 1: for me about what your first day at Parados is. Like, 165 00:10:00,756 --> 00:10:05,156 Speaker 1: I mean, against everything you've just described, I was so excited. 166 00:10:05,476 --> 00:10:09,916 Speaker 1: I was so excited. It's it's hard to put into words, 167 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:13,036 Speaker 1: like that dream like state that you're in when you 168 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:15,676 Speaker 1: finally made it, you know, where you feel at least 169 00:10:15,676 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: that you finally made it. And I remember because Baroness 170 00:10:18,876 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 1: had so many blockades from going into certain rooms, so 171 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 1: you couldn't see from the external what the office building 172 00:10:26,596 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 1: was like or what the laboratories were like. So I 173 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:31,676 Speaker 1: remember when I got and did the entry interview and 174 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:33,956 Speaker 1: I got my badge where I could open all of 175 00:10:33,956 --> 00:10:36,356 Speaker 1: these doors where I could see Sonny and Elizabeth in 176 00:10:36,396 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 1: their glass offices, or I could go down into the 177 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:43,316 Speaker 1: laboratory and swipe in and be able to see all 178 00:10:43,356 --> 00:10:45,556 Speaker 1: the different machinery of everything. It was. I had so 179 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:48,996 Speaker 1: much enthusiasm and so much excitement, and yeah, you're getting 180 00:10:48,996 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 1: the key to this private club, this exclusive club, right exactly, 181 00:10:53,276 --> 00:10:57,436 Speaker 1: this exclusive club, and yeah, I just had so much excitement. Really, 182 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:00,276 Speaker 1: at the early days of Tharoness, I really anticipated that 183 00:11:00,316 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 1: this was a company in a project that I could 184 00:11:03,756 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 1: easily see myself spending the next decade working on. Like 185 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:10,516 Speaker 1: that's how much I really was invested in the problem, 186 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:14,516 Speaker 1: how much I loved the field of blood testing, like 187 00:11:14,556 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 1: I really was thinking that this was going to be 188 00:11:19,236 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 1: like a next huge chapter of my life. So about 189 00:11:27,036 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 1: a month into your time at Tharanos, the Huneymoon period 190 00:11:30,036 --> 00:11:32,316 Speaker 1: starts coming to an end. Right, you start to notice 191 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:36,836 Speaker 1: significant ethical problems with the way that Tharanos is conducting 192 00:11:36,836 --> 00:11:40,116 Speaker 1: its scientific research. And I'm wondering if you could tell 193 00:11:40,116 --> 00:11:42,356 Speaker 1: me a bit more about some of those red flags. 194 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 1: So initially, when I started at Tharanos, I worked in 195 00:11:46,116 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 1: the research and development lab as a lab associate, and 196 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:50,996 Speaker 1: then they were trying to integrate me into a clinical 197 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:55,036 Speaker 1: setting where you actively process patient samples. And so one 198 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:58,556 Speaker 1: day on Thanksgiving, I was asked to work and we 199 00:11:58,596 --> 00:12:01,076 Speaker 1: managed to get a patient from Walgreens who came in. 200 00:12:01,756 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 1: And so, prior to running a patient sample, you have 201 00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:08,516 Speaker 1: to do something called quality control testing. And quality control 202 00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: testing is essentially I have a sample where I know 203 00:12:13,396 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 1: what the value is. So let's say the value is ten, 204 00:12:16,796 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 1: and I'll run it on my machine and ideally it 205 00:12:20,236 --> 00:12:23,796 Speaker 1: comes out something close to ten. So prior to running 206 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:28,396 Speaker 1: this Thanksgiving patient sample, I ran this sample and it 207 00:12:28,436 --> 00:12:30,956 Speaker 1: was coming out like one hundred and fifty and it 208 00:12:30,996 --> 00:12:34,156 Speaker 1: was coming out like twenty and thirty five and I 209 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:37,116 Speaker 1: had ran it like three separate times and it was 210 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:41,996 Speaker 1: all variable results. And so I contacted this helpline called 211 00:12:42,036 --> 00:12:44,636 Speaker 1: Normandy nine one one, which was an internal helpline that 212 00:12:44,676 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: we had that contacted Elizabeth Sonny all of the upper scientists, 213 00:12:50,076 --> 00:12:52,476 Speaker 1: and we were trying to figure out what was the problem, 214 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:57,356 Speaker 1: why was this failing? And sometimes when the THEREINOS devices 215 00:12:57,596 --> 00:13:02,796 Speaker 1: weren't showing good accuracy, people would start doing this process 216 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:06,876 Speaker 1: called deleting outliers, like, oh, well, delete that one and 217 00:13:07,116 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 1: see what the accuracy rate looks like. And I was 218 00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 1: like okay, and then oh no, delete that one, or 219 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:14,556 Speaker 1: excision that one. I mean, they were essentially defining an 220 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:18,996 Speaker 1: outlier as something that didn't conform to their desired outcome. Yes, 221 00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 1: which is insane, and that's not what an outlier is. 222 00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:27,396 Speaker 1: So that is good science. One on one, dude, science 223 00:13:27,396 --> 00:13:30,156 Speaker 1: one on one. You keep oh it, just keep the data, 224 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:33,396 Speaker 1: just keep it there. Yes. And so the solution that 225 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:36,716 Speaker 1: they came up with was essentially to get another lower 226 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:39,676 Speaker 1: level lab associate who had about maybe a year more 227 00:13:39,756 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 1: experience to me. She looked at the data and she 228 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 1: deleted the outliers for this and managed to get the 229 00:13:46,996 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 1: quality controls the past, she ran the patient sample and 230 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 1: then they sent it out. And I'm looking at this 231 00:13:52,436 --> 00:13:54,796 Speaker 1: practice and I keep trying to ask people, like, what 232 00:13:55,116 --> 00:13:58,196 Speaker 1: is this process of outlier deletion? Because everything in my 233 00:13:58,236 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 1: mind tells me when it comes to running experiments, you 234 00:14:01,156 --> 00:14:04,596 Speaker 1: keep everything, even if it makes it the case that 235 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:09,036 Speaker 1: the accuracy isn't good or whatever else. They are very 236 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,956 Speaker 1: very very rare occasions that you delete things. You just 237 00:14:13,036 --> 00:14:17,436 Speaker 1: maintain the integrity of the data, because that's again, that's 238 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:20,516 Speaker 1: the beauty of science, right is to be objective with 239 00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:24,716 Speaker 1: the information and to be able to see the true 240 00:14:24,796 --> 00:14:29,796 Speaker 1: reality of what it's what's going on. And that was 241 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:33,116 Speaker 1: a practice that was very concerning to me because I 242 00:14:33,196 --> 00:14:38,556 Speaker 1: realized that once you start doing that, you start making 243 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:41,196 Speaker 1: things appear to be one thing when that might not 244 00:14:41,316 --> 00:14:45,716 Speaker 1: actually be the truth. And these results are being sent 245 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 1: to patients and providers, it is actually informing care. It's 246 00:14:50,316 --> 00:14:53,996 Speaker 1: informing what medications you give a patient, it's it's informing 247 00:14:54,036 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 1: their entire treatment process, it's informing their psychological well being 248 00:14:57,396 --> 00:14:59,636 Speaker 1: exactly right when they think they have something and they don't, 249 00:14:59,756 --> 00:15:03,036 Speaker 1: or vice versa, exactly. To give you an example of 250 00:15:03,196 --> 00:15:06,036 Speaker 1: the distress that sometimes getting a bad result. There was 251 00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:09,076 Speaker 1: a colleague of mine and she did a total testosterone 252 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 1: test and for women, they tend to have lowered sstone levels, 253 00:15:12,876 --> 00:15:15,356 Speaker 1: and so she had done one on the Edison devices, 254 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:20,036 Speaker 1: which was Thereinosa's proprietary machine, and it came out extremely high. 255 00:15:20,076 --> 00:15:22,236 Speaker 1: She was in her early twenties. She's looking at this. 256 00:15:22,436 --> 00:15:24,636 Speaker 1: Of course, she goes on the internet what does this mean? 257 00:15:24,956 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 1: And it means potentially she could be infertile. So imagine 258 00:15:28,316 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 1: you're in your early twenties, it's before you're even thinking 259 00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:33,556 Speaker 1: about having children at this point, you're just starting your career. 260 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:35,636 Speaker 1: You get this blood test and it's telling you you're 261 00:15:35,676 --> 00:15:39,076 Speaker 1: potentially infertile, and the sort of like shock that that 262 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:43,716 Speaker 1: could be that now you have this whole consideration about, 263 00:15:43,876 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: well do I have to start thinking about having kids 264 00:15:46,956 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 1: tomorrow or freezing my eggs in like the next year 265 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:53,156 Speaker 1: because of this test. And so there were real consequences 266 00:15:53,196 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 1: to basically getting this information that was false, and so 267 00:15:58,036 --> 00:16:02,756 Speaker 1: it was it was quite scary because again I'm no 268 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:06,196 Speaker 1: longer a scientist at my lab bench, just tinkering around 269 00:16:06,276 --> 00:16:09,476 Speaker 1: trying to troubleshoot figure things out as I go, I'm 270 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:15,796 Speaker 1: actively now testing on patients, and that is just such 271 00:16:15,836 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 1: a different responsibility and different perspective. And so I think 272 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:26,996 Speaker 1: for me, it really made me uncomfortable because I was like, 273 00:16:26,996 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 1: this isn't ready, This isn't ready to start testing on patients. 274 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: There's just too many issues and the stakes are a 275 00:16:32,996 --> 00:16:38,836 Speaker 1: bit too high. So Erica, I mean, you're bold. You 276 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 1: do not hold back when it comes to vocalizing to 277 00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 1: your higher ups repeatedly right that you don't believe patient 278 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 1: blood sample should be run on the Tharnis device. And Sonny, 279 00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:53,436 Speaker 1: who is Elizabeth's second in command, he gets wind of 280 00:16:53,436 --> 00:16:56,836 Speaker 1: your resistance and one day confronts you in his office 281 00:16:56,876 --> 00:17:01,356 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, how does that conversation unfold? So initially 282 00:17:01,516 --> 00:17:03,596 Speaker 1: he invites me into his office and he asked me 283 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 1: the simple question like how do you like working at 284 00:17:05,716 --> 00:17:08,236 Speaker 1: the Ainos? And I was like, you know, I really 285 00:17:08,236 --> 00:17:10,356 Speaker 1: love the mission of this company. I like what we're 286 00:17:10,356 --> 00:17:13,156 Speaker 1: trying to accomplish, but I see a lot of problems. 287 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: We're having problems with these quality control failures, but we're 288 00:17:16,476 --> 00:17:22,436 Speaker 1: still testing patients. And after I finished saying that, he says, well, 289 00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 1: what makes you qualified to say that you're a recent 290 00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 1: graduate from UC Berkeley, and you have no visibility in 291 00:17:30,596 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 1: this company. Why do you think that's true? And have 292 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: you ever taken a statist sixth class? And you need 293 00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:41,676 Speaker 1: to essentially make a decision by tomorrow. You need to 294 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:43,316 Speaker 1: tell me do you still want to work for this 295 00:17:43,356 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 1: company or not? And if you want to work for 296 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: this company, you need to test patient samples without question 297 00:17:49,756 --> 00:17:51,356 Speaker 1: and do the job that I pay you to do. 298 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:55,036 Speaker 1: And I was shocked at this point. I was like, 299 00:17:55,076 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 1: I can't even believe this, right because at this point 300 00:17:57,836 --> 00:18:00,316 Speaker 1: in the company, I was operating with a sense of 301 00:18:00,356 --> 00:18:02,836 Speaker 1: good faith. Maybe it was the case that there was 302 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:07,316 Speaker 1: some sort of miscommunication between what was happening at the 303 00:18:07,396 --> 00:18:11,876 Speaker 1: operational floor in the executive level management, and somehow they 304 00:18:11,996 --> 00:18:16,796 Speaker 1: weren't seeing what everyone all the operators were seeing. And 305 00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:20,636 Speaker 1: at that moment I realized, oh no, there's something different 306 00:18:20,716 --> 00:18:23,396 Speaker 1: going on here. And it was so weird too, when 307 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:25,796 Speaker 1: I think the other thing that was very scary about 308 00:18:25,796 --> 00:18:27,836 Speaker 1: it is like I was on their team. You know, 309 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:30,356 Speaker 1: I work for this company, I'm working sixteen hour days, 310 00:18:30,396 --> 00:18:33,316 Speaker 1: I'm sleeping in my car sometimes, and the fact that 311 00:18:33,476 --> 00:18:35,956 Speaker 1: someone who is on your team that you are going 312 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:40,036 Speaker 1: to attack when they tell you, I'm bringing this problem 313 00:18:40,076 --> 00:18:42,316 Speaker 1: to you because it needs to be fixed. I'm not 314 00:18:42,396 --> 00:18:47,036 Speaker 1: bringing this problem to you because of anything adversarial. And 315 00:18:47,076 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 1: I think that also completely changed the dynamic for me 316 00:18:50,636 --> 00:18:54,756 Speaker 1: of oh, there's not much you can do here right now, 317 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:58,956 Speaker 1: it's the case that this person sees you as a villain, 318 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 1: as a competitor, as something else, when it's like, I've 319 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:05,516 Speaker 1: done nothing but show that I want to see this 320 00:19:05,556 --> 00:19:07,956 Speaker 1: work too, but not at this cost, not at the 321 00:19:08,036 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 1: cost of potential actually violating even our own internal standard, 322 00:19:12,356 --> 00:19:15,556 Speaker 1: which is to provide quality care to patients. Right Like, 323 00:19:15,596 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: there's just no way. It just doesn't make sense at 324 00:19:18,156 --> 00:19:22,676 Speaker 1: all to me. So I think from that perspective, it 325 00:19:22,716 --> 00:19:25,276 Speaker 1: was just so jarring, right, it was so jarring to 326 00:19:25,316 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 1: watch someone act like outside of the own interests of 327 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 1: the organization. Even at that point. You're twenty three at 328 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:36,356 Speaker 1: the time that you're having this conversation with Sonny, and 329 00:19:37,636 --> 00:19:39,636 Speaker 1: I just want to enter your psychology for a bit, 330 00:19:39,756 --> 00:19:44,516 Speaker 1: because on the one hand, the scientific integrity alarm bells 331 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: are out of control. But then on the other hand, 332 00:19:49,356 --> 00:19:53,156 Speaker 1: when you are young and relatively inexperienced and there's this 333 00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:57,796 Speaker 1: big chorus that's singing the company's praises and is validating 334 00:19:57,836 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 1: the work that's happening behind the scenes. It's so easy 335 00:20:01,036 --> 00:20:04,636 Speaker 1: to second guess yourself, right, Like in another environment, things 336 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:08,316 Speaker 1: that are so obviously true, things that are so obviously wrong. 337 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 1: In this case, you might get confused about and so 338 00:20:12,036 --> 00:20:14,156 Speaker 1: did you go through any do you have to face 339 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 1: any of those insecurities or second guessing all the time? 340 00:20:17,276 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 1: You know, all the time, because I was very conscious 341 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:22,316 Speaker 1: of the fact that I was young and that I 342 00:20:22,356 --> 00:20:24,876 Speaker 1: may not have been seeing the full picture, or that 343 00:20:24,956 --> 00:20:29,076 Speaker 1: I didn't have this background. And I think, honestly, the 344 00:20:29,076 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 1: beauty even of that doubt is it really made me 345 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:35,516 Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into running experiments where it's 346 00:20:35,516 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 1: like you can't fight the numbers. Sometimes you really can't 347 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:41,116 Speaker 1: fight the evidence, you know. I wish in retrospect that 348 00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 1: I had a little more confidence in myself, but I 349 00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: think that also comes with age. Right, this was my 350 00:20:45,716 --> 00:20:48,956 Speaker 1: first job out of college, Like, it's very hard to 351 00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:52,236 Speaker 1: think that you know everything. I do want to challenge 352 00:20:52,276 --> 00:20:54,116 Speaker 1: that a little bit, Erica, because I actually think a 353 00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:57,356 Speaker 1: hallmark of a good scientist is someone who does question themselves, 354 00:20:57,796 --> 00:21:01,356 Speaker 1: who approaches what they do with a profound amount of humility. 355 00:21:01,516 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of what's required to be good 356 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:05,556 Speaker 1: at this. So yes, do I hope you are like 357 00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:09,036 Speaker 1: blindly confident. Sure, but it made your psychological journey easier. 358 00:21:09,116 --> 00:21:10,876 Speaker 1: But then you wouldn't have been a scientist at heart, 359 00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:13,716 Speaker 1: which is like wanting to generate evidence, wanting to build 360 00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:16,396 Speaker 1: the empirical case. Yeah, thank you Maya for pointing that 361 00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: that is very true. That is very true, and I 362 00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:21,396 Speaker 1: think that led to some of the frustration of working 363 00:21:22,476 --> 00:21:25,716 Speaker 1: for Sarinos, was the fact anytime you challenged everything, it 364 00:21:25,796 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 1: became something that was in an attack, and it's like, 365 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:33,276 Speaker 1: this isn't an attack, this is the process, this is 366 00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:39,276 Speaker 1: the scientific process totally. So Erica, you're you leave this 367 00:21:39,396 --> 00:21:43,356 Speaker 1: meeting with Sonny, You've now had this realization that there 368 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:46,876 Speaker 1: actually is no chasm between what's happening in the labs 369 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,356 Speaker 1: and what the company executives know. They know full well 370 00:21:49,396 --> 00:21:51,996 Speaker 1: what's happening, and they're actually just trying to intimidate you 371 00:21:52,076 --> 00:21:55,676 Speaker 1: out of being honest about what's going on behind the scenes. 372 00:21:55,676 --> 00:21:59,076 Speaker 1: They're trying to discourage you from being a critical thinker 373 00:21:59,356 --> 00:22:05,076 Speaker 1: who's trying to actually improve the end product, and and 374 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:07,476 Speaker 1: then you end up calling your dad later that day 375 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:11,996 Speaker 1: to tell him, my dad, you know, I'm uncomfortable working 376 00:22:11,996 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: at Farnos. Like, here's what's going on. And given what 377 00:22:15,716 --> 00:22:18,276 Speaker 1: you've already shared about your upbringing in what this job 378 00:22:18,356 --> 00:22:21,316 Speaker 1: meant for your family, what was it like to have 379 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:25,036 Speaker 1: that call? Erica? It was hard. It was hard. It 380 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 1: was hard for so many reasons. Right, it was hard 381 00:22:27,756 --> 00:22:30,956 Speaker 1: because I had only worked at the company for seven months. 382 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:32,796 Speaker 1: So now I'm going to call my father and I'm 383 00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 1: going to tell him I need to quit a job 384 00:22:34,916 --> 00:22:38,196 Speaker 1: that I only lasted seven months, and at that point, 385 00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:40,556 Speaker 1: I was making more money than my dad had made 386 00:22:40,596 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: working ten years at the same company. You know, I 387 00:22:43,276 --> 00:22:45,756 Speaker 1: had made more money at that job than my mom 388 00:22:45,756 --> 00:22:49,356 Speaker 1: has ever made in her lifetime. So you have to 389 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:51,556 Speaker 1: explain to them, you know, is it the case that 390 00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 1: I'm just a quitter? Like am I just basically throwing 391 00:22:55,356 --> 00:22:57,556 Speaker 1: my hands up and saying like I can't handle this? 392 00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 1: And not only that, but it just yeah, it was 393 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:07,556 Speaker 1: just difficult to know how to navigate the situation because 394 00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: it was so bizarre, Right, it was strange, Like, there's 395 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 1: no not a lot of people could fundamentally understand what 396 00:23:13,036 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 1: it's like to be in an organization that treats you 397 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 1: this way, and you're in such a toxic culture that 398 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 1: it's hard to even think normally at that point because 399 00:23:25,476 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 1: it's so bizarre to be in that context. And so 400 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 1: luckily my dad responded with like the best thing he 401 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:34,556 Speaker 1: could have possibly said, and he said, Erica, you're a 402 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:38,476 Speaker 1: smart girl. I trust you, you'll figure it out. And 403 00:23:38,596 --> 00:23:41,356 Speaker 1: that was it. And he's a man of very few words, 404 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:44,356 Speaker 1: but that was probably exactly the words I needed to 405 00:23:44,396 --> 00:23:46,716 Speaker 1: hear in that moment. And so from that point I 406 00:23:46,796 --> 00:23:49,836 Speaker 1: knew I would be okay, I'd I'd work it out, 407 00:23:51,076 --> 00:23:54,716 Speaker 1: and so what do you do the next day? Yeah, 408 00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:59,676 Speaker 1: So at this point I was at this point, I 409 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:04,156 Speaker 1: was pretty I was pretty depressed. I was like, okay, 410 00:24:04,156 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 1: what are you what are you going to do here? 411 00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 1: And one of the things amongst all of this, because 412 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:10,796 Speaker 1: I was really fuse, like do you try and change 413 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 1: things internally or do you try you just move on 414 00:24:14,636 --> 00:24:17,156 Speaker 1: and go somewhere else. And I think it was very 415 00:24:17,156 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 1: hard for me to figure out, but I essentially I 416 00:24:21,996 --> 00:24:25,676 Speaker 1: decided to quit the company, a company that around that 417 00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 1: time was valued at nearly nine billion dollars. After the break, 418 00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:34,396 Speaker 1: we'll hear from Erica about the fallout after she left Tharanos. 419 00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:37,156 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 420 00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: of plans. Erica Chung was twenty three when she quit 421 00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:53,836 Speaker 1: her job at Tharanos. She had witnessed unconscionable and fraudulent 422 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:58,676 Speaker 1: practices that were negatively impacting real patients lives. But after 423 00:24:58,836 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 1: Erica left, she was disoriented by the fact Tharinos and 424 00:25:02,156 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: its founder, Elizabeth Holmes were continuing on this meteoric ascent. 425 00:25:07,476 --> 00:25:11,436 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was gracing the cover of magazines like Forbes and Fortune, 426 00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:15,836 Speaker 1: and she was being called the next Steve Jobs. Henry Kissinger, 427 00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:19,196 Speaker 1: a former US Secretary of State and Tharonos board member, 428 00:25:19,516 --> 00:25:22,796 Speaker 1: took it one step further when he suggested that actually 429 00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs was just an earlier version of Elizabeth. Erica 430 00:25:27,556 --> 00:25:30,076 Speaker 1: began to wonder if maybe she had just missed something 431 00:25:30,156 --> 00:25:33,516 Speaker 1: all along, But then a journalist from the Wall Street 432 00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:37,756 Speaker 1: Journal named John Carrirew contacted her. He had been investigating 433 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 1: Tharonos for some time, and he asked Erica to be 434 00:25:40,596 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: a source for his upcoming expose of the company. I 435 00:25:44,716 --> 00:25:47,356 Speaker 1: mean it was scary initially because Saronos made it very 436 00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 1: clear that we signed nondisclosure agreements and that they would 437 00:25:49,956 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 1: retaliate against us if we said anything to external figures. 438 00:25:52,876 --> 00:25:57,596 Speaker 1: So there was that fear of there could be really 439 00:25:57,636 --> 00:26:01,716 Speaker 1: big consequences to speaking to a journalist. But then also 440 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 1: it was a bit of a sigh of relief. It 441 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, here is another door, another opportunity to 442 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:11,996 Speaker 1: get the truth out in exposing what they're doing in 443 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:16,516 Speaker 1: the patient testing realm. And so I was actually like, Okay, 444 00:26:16,556 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 1: this is a great channel to sort of let people 445 00:26:18,996 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 1: know what's going on here. And yeah, I became one 446 00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:27,476 Speaker 1: of his sources off the record, of course, and a 447 00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:29,556 Speaker 1: lot of people didn't know that I was talking to him, 448 00:26:29,596 --> 00:26:34,476 Speaker 1: But yeah, and what is your interaction with Aaronos like 449 00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 1: at this time, if at all. So essentially, as John 450 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,116 Speaker 1: is doing his investigative reporting, he had to give Tharonos 451 00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:51,436 Speaker 1: the opportunity to rebut his investigative peace. And at that point, 452 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:55,036 Speaker 1: essentially Tharonos went on this giant which hunt to sort 453 00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:58,916 Speaker 1: of figure out and identify who were the former employees 454 00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:05,596 Speaker 1: that were sources for his reporting. So there was there 455 00:27:05,676 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 1: was one one night I was working late at my 456 00:27:08,596 --> 00:27:11,796 Speaker 1: new employ lawyer's office, and my colleagues come up to 457 00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:13,476 Speaker 1: me and they said, Erica, you need to pack up 458 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:15,956 Speaker 1: your stuff because I usually work late, and you need 459 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:18,436 Speaker 1: to leave with us because there's been a man in 460 00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:21,556 Speaker 1: the parking lot all day and we don't want you 461 00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 1: to leave the building alone. So I pack up my 462 00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 1: stuff and I walk out the door, and immediately this 463 00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:31,556 Speaker 1: guy and this like tinted ASUV, jumps out and he 464 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:35,196 Speaker 1: hands me this letter and I look at it and 465 00:27:35,316 --> 00:27:39,596 Speaker 1: it's a letter from David Boys, who at that time 466 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:41,756 Speaker 1: is one of the top corporate lawyers in the US, 467 00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:45,836 Speaker 1: and it's addressed to me, but it has an address 468 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:49,196 Speaker 1: on there that is essentially my colleague's address, because I 469 00:27:49,236 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 1: had just moved out of my apartment and was sleeping 470 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 1: on her couch. So at this point I was really 471 00:27:55,236 --> 00:27:57,956 Speaker 1: freaked out because what it had suggested to me that 472 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:01,596 Speaker 1: they were following me. They were following me. I was 473 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: now under the prospect of being sued, but also they 474 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:12,036 Speaker 1: had private investigators following me. Before we talk about how 475 00:28:12,036 --> 00:28:13,996 Speaker 1: you responded to the content in the letter, I want 476 00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 1: to know what kind of psychological toll this takes on you. 477 00:28:17,196 --> 00:28:20,436 Speaker 1: I mean to know that you're being followed an it's 478 00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 1: an unbelievable invasion of privacy and it's very very scary. Yeah, 479 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 1: it's it's terrifying. Right, I'm twenty three years old at 480 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:32,436 Speaker 1: this point, and I'm wondering, like you just feel so powerless. 481 00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:35,836 Speaker 1: You're like, Okay, What's what's going to happen to me? 482 00:28:36,076 --> 00:28:39,796 Speaker 1: How do I even not only is there the fear 483 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:43,356 Speaker 1: that I'm going to be embroiled in debt because of 484 00:28:43,396 --> 00:28:47,036 Speaker 1: all the litigation or potentially there might be some sort 485 00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:49,716 Speaker 1: of criminal charges that are placed upon me, but even 486 00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:52,836 Speaker 1: my personal safety. You know, what am I going to do? 487 00:28:53,676 --> 00:28:57,596 Speaker 1: You're talking about a company who has people backing them, 488 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,236 Speaker 1: who are ex Secretary of States. You know, if people 489 00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:04,636 Speaker 1: are following me, and what's going to happen to me? 490 00:29:04,716 --> 00:29:07,316 Speaker 1: They have way more money, they have way more resources, 491 00:29:07,356 --> 00:29:10,116 Speaker 1: they may have way more political out they have way 492 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:17,716 Speaker 1: more power than I do than It was very very terrifying. Yeah, 493 00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:20,396 Speaker 1: So how do you you have this letter from David Boyce, 494 00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 1: who Thereinos has hired to be their their lawyer, and 495 00:29:23,716 --> 00:29:25,316 Speaker 1: like you said, he's one of the top lawyers in 496 00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:30,036 Speaker 1: the country. How do you act on this letter? What 497 00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 1: do you what do you do next? So luckily I 498 00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:37,316 Speaker 1: reach out to my network and I contact a bunch 499 00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 1: of people and I get in conversation basically with a lawyer, 500 00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:46,796 Speaker 1: and they say, hey, you know, a potential opportunity is 501 00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:51,276 Speaker 1: that you can report to regulators. And you know, this 502 00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 1: was an option that wasn't super clear to me, Like 503 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:56,676 Speaker 1: people said, well, you can be a whistleblower, but it's 504 00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 1: not very clear what being a whistleblower is. If you 505 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:07,876 Speaker 1: if you're just a normal person who's living their life, yes, exactly, exactly. 506 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:12,956 Speaker 1: You know, I realized at that moment, in order for 507 00:30:13,236 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 1: Parinos to test on patient samples, they had to maintain 508 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:22,676 Speaker 1: their certification with the Center of Medicaid and Medicare Services, 509 00:30:23,076 --> 00:30:26,436 Speaker 1: which is the regulatory body that essentially allows people to 510 00:30:26,476 --> 00:30:30,436 Speaker 1: test on patients. And so from that point, I was like, oh, okay, 511 00:30:30,476 --> 00:30:34,796 Speaker 1: you can report to CMS, which is the abbreviation for 512 00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:41,556 Speaker 1: that the Center of Medicaid and Medicare Services, And yeah, 513 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:43,756 Speaker 1: so that's what I ended up doing. I ended up 514 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:48,076 Speaker 1: almost immediately. It's funny. I immediately decided to drive to 515 00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:50,836 Speaker 1: San Francisco to go to the office to report. But 516 00:30:50,876 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 1: I was so terrified about being followed that I ended 517 00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:57,396 Speaker 1: up just like crying and circling all over downtown San Francisco, 518 00:30:58,116 --> 00:31:00,636 Speaker 1: not knowing what to do because I just didn't I 519 00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: felt like I was being tracked. So I ended up 520 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:06,676 Speaker 1: going and buying a burner phone and contacted the regulatory 521 00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:10,956 Speaker 1: body and figured out about the process in order to 522 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:14,236 Speaker 1: write a report and a complaint. And when you write 523 00:31:14,236 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: to a regulatory body like this like CMS, are you 524 00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:22,036 Speaker 1: does it carry legal protections? Right? Are you granted whistle 525 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 1: blower status? So is that? What was? Is that why? 526 00:31:24,676 --> 00:31:27,596 Speaker 1: You thought? Okay, so how do that? So you'd actually yeah, 527 00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:30,196 Speaker 1: so you'd actually be surprised. There are very few protections 528 00:31:30,276 --> 00:31:34,436 Speaker 1: for people who report that work for private companies. I 529 00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:37,796 Speaker 1: just thought, okay, we're going to file this complaint because 530 00:31:37,956 --> 00:31:41,276 Speaker 1: again I was operating with they need to stop testing 531 00:31:41,276 --> 00:31:45,116 Speaker 1: on patients. You can't essentially treat people like lab rats. 532 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:47,436 Speaker 1: And that's what their nose was doing, right, it was 533 00:31:48,036 --> 00:31:51,996 Speaker 1: essentially experimenting on the public live and telling them that 534 00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:58,316 Speaker 1: they had quality test when that wasn't that wasn't the case. Okay, Eric, 535 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:02,116 Speaker 1: I need to stop you here because what I'm hearing 536 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:06,276 Speaker 1: is extraordinary, which is that you get confronted in a 537 00:32:06,396 --> 00:32:09,276 Speaker 1: dark parking lot outside of your new office building, and 538 00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:12,676 Speaker 1: it's revealed to you that there are people following you 539 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:16,876 Speaker 1: on a regular basis, and that leads you to double 540 00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:21,036 Speaker 1: down and make the choice to go even further with 541 00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:25,756 Speaker 1: your efforts and to contact a regulatory body. That is stunning. 542 00:32:25,796 --> 00:32:28,036 Speaker 1: I need you to unpack that. For me. I would 543 00:32:28,076 --> 00:32:30,236 Speaker 1: just let me tell you what I would have done 544 00:32:30,556 --> 00:32:33,076 Speaker 1: gotten a letter, I would have been like, can I 545 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 1: move back home with my parents? Can I just reduce 546 00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:41,236 Speaker 1: all connection with this company forevermore? And just like buried 547 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:48,476 Speaker 1: my head. Hey, I don't get it. It's so hard. 548 00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:52,876 Speaker 1: It's so hard to be self aware of it, because 549 00:32:52,916 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 1: for me, it makes sense. For me, it makes total 550 00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:58,836 Speaker 1: sense of why I would do this. It's kind of 551 00:32:58,836 --> 00:33:00,876 Speaker 1: one of those things like again, I just wanted them 552 00:33:00,876 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 1: to stop processing patient samples, and when that new door 553 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:08,036 Speaker 1: opened for me, that was just an opportunity that I 554 00:33:08,076 --> 00:33:11,876 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine not taking, right, I couldn't imagine not taking. 555 00:33:12,236 --> 00:33:14,476 Speaker 1: And honestly, I'll talk to people about this, like, yes, 556 00:33:14,556 --> 00:33:17,996 Speaker 1: there were moments where I thought, wow, Okay, if they 557 00:33:18,076 --> 00:33:22,796 Speaker 1: go through with the litigation, you know you're gonna probably 558 00:33:22,836 --> 00:33:25,076 Speaker 1: go bankrupt. And I was like, okay, well your recent 559 00:33:25,156 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 1: grad like you're almost there, so you're not so okay, 560 00:33:29,236 --> 00:33:32,316 Speaker 1: you know, fair play or there was a possibility that 561 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 1: you that I would have gotten some sort of criminal charges, 562 00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:39,756 Speaker 1: and I was like pragmatic with myself and said, okay, well, 563 00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:43,396 Speaker 1: you love being alone, so maybe you'll spend a couple 564 00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:45,716 Speaker 1: of years being alone for a while in a prison cell. 565 00:33:46,596 --> 00:33:51,636 Speaker 1: A prison cell, okay, But honestly, the idea of knowing 566 00:33:51,796 --> 00:33:55,756 Speaker 1: what I knew and having not done anything, and knowing 567 00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:58,996 Speaker 1: that there was something that I could have done about 568 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:01,116 Speaker 1: it and I didn't do anything, like that's the real 569 00:34:01,676 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 1: prison right, Like that would have been so hard for 570 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:06,676 Speaker 1: me to live with myself knowing the things that I 571 00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 1: knew and having not done anything. That's the real purgatory 572 00:34:10,916 --> 00:34:13,436 Speaker 1: right to sit with yourself and to realize that you 573 00:34:13,476 --> 00:34:17,116 Speaker 1: didn't push it forward. So it just for me that 574 00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:22,156 Speaker 1: that was a much worse reality. So you end up 575 00:34:22,156 --> 00:34:25,676 Speaker 1: buying a burner phone, you contact CMS, and then you 576 00:34:25,716 --> 00:34:28,916 Speaker 1: end up writing a formal letter right that ends up 577 00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:36,476 Speaker 1: instigating a formal federal investigation into Tharanos. And I just 578 00:34:36,516 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 1: need you to take a quick victory lab here Erica, 579 00:34:38,876 --> 00:34:45,596 Speaker 1: because your letter results in significant consequences for Tharanos. So 580 00:34:45,676 --> 00:34:48,676 Speaker 1: after I sent the letter, a CMS went in and 581 00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:54,236 Speaker 1: they the regulators went in and they conducted an investigation 582 00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:58,716 Speaker 1: and they found serious deficiencies and Thoranos's lab and basically 583 00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:04,316 Speaker 1: barred them from operating a patient testing lab from that 584 00:35:04,356 --> 00:35:07,916 Speaker 1: point forward, So it shut down their ability to test 585 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:10,956 Speaker 1: on patients. What was it like when you got that news. 586 00:35:11,396 --> 00:35:13,916 Speaker 1: When I got that news, it was an absolute relief. 587 00:35:13,956 --> 00:35:16,636 Speaker 1: It was nice to kind of be able to finally 588 00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:21,996 Speaker 1: be able to rest a bit. I think for me 589 00:35:22,076 --> 00:35:25,196 Speaker 1: it was funny. My Parahos saga really ended there in 590 00:35:25,196 --> 00:35:27,916 Speaker 1: a way like I stopped paying attention. Your job is done. 591 00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:31,076 Speaker 1: My job is done, and that was it. So it 592 00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:33,276 Speaker 1: was it was a big relief. And I know, while 593 00:35:33,316 --> 00:35:35,956 Speaker 1: all of this is unfolding, you make this decision to 594 00:35:35,996 --> 00:35:38,516 Speaker 1: move to Hong Kong, to really get away from it, 595 00:35:38,556 --> 00:35:42,996 Speaker 1: even geographically right. Just an eagerness I can so resonate 596 00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:46,636 Speaker 1: with that. Just an eagerness to make Pharaonos a definitive 597 00:35:46,676 --> 00:35:49,636 Speaker 1: part of your past. Exactly. I walked into my new 598 00:35:49,676 --> 00:35:52,036 Speaker 1: boss's office and I just looked at him and I said, 599 00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:56,396 Speaker 1: I want to move to Hong Kong and he's like, okay. 600 00:35:56,836 --> 00:35:59,996 Speaker 1: And I had no plan, no nothing, but I knew 601 00:36:00,236 --> 00:36:02,636 Speaker 1: that I just needed to go. I just needed to 602 00:36:02,716 --> 00:36:06,956 Speaker 1: just go do something for myself. And then I packed 603 00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:09,436 Speaker 1: my bags and I left in two thousand and seen 604 00:36:09,516 --> 00:36:12,996 Speaker 1: to move to Hong Kong. So we're going to fast 605 00:36:12,996 --> 00:36:15,876 Speaker 1: forward a few years. You're continuing to live in Hong 606 00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:20,196 Speaker 1: Kong and it's twenty nineteen and you're traveling to the 607 00:36:20,276 --> 00:36:22,996 Speaker 1: US and you're in an airport in the US and 608 00:36:24,076 --> 00:36:27,076 Speaker 1: you're confronted by a member of the FBI. Yeah. So 609 00:36:27,116 --> 00:36:30,356 Speaker 1: I'm essentially sitting in an airport. I'm about to board 610 00:36:30,356 --> 00:36:34,276 Speaker 1: a plane, and as I'm starting to go into the 611 00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:38,236 Speaker 1: plane boarding process, this man comes up to me as 612 00:36:38,276 --> 00:36:40,156 Speaker 1: I'm packing away my laptop and he's like, are you 613 00:36:40,276 --> 00:36:44,556 Speaker 1: Erica Chung And I'm like yes, And he's like, Okay, 614 00:36:44,676 --> 00:36:47,996 Speaker 1: don't be nervous. But I'm with the FBI and here's 615 00:36:47,996 --> 00:36:51,556 Speaker 1: a subpoena. You're going to testify in the criminal case 616 00:36:51,756 --> 00:36:56,956 Speaker 1: against Elizabeth Holmes and Sonny Batwani. I mean, don't be nervous. Comma, 617 00:36:57,156 --> 00:37:01,236 Speaker 1: I'm an FBI agent. Should be said by no FBI 618 00:37:01,276 --> 00:37:05,076 Speaker 1: agent moving forward, but I appreciate the light empathy he 619 00:37:05,236 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 1: was showing you that moment. So then so the trial 620 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:15,956 Speaker 1: keeps getting delayed, right, there's COVID, Elizabeth Holmes gets pregnant. 621 00:37:17,516 --> 00:37:20,676 Speaker 1: But then finally there's a date September twenty twenty one. 622 00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:27,396 Speaker 1: You're asked to finally testify. And what is that like, Erica? 623 00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:30,276 Speaker 1: I mean, what is it like to see Elizabeth Holmes again? 624 00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:33,876 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to expect. I had no idea 625 00:37:33,956 --> 00:37:36,636 Speaker 1: what that was going to be like, and was very 626 00:37:36,716 --> 00:37:40,716 Speaker 1: nervous going into that courtroom. But what was amazing is 627 00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:43,956 Speaker 1: like once I actually sat down and I was in 628 00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:47,356 Speaker 1: the witness stand and I looked over and I saw Elizabeth. 629 00:37:47,396 --> 00:37:49,316 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, that's right, Erica, You're on 630 00:37:49,356 --> 00:37:53,356 Speaker 1: this side of the table, like you didn't do anything wrong. Here, 631 00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:57,116 Speaker 1: you didn't do anything wrong. And so it was actually 632 00:37:57,156 --> 00:38:02,476 Speaker 1: a bit relaxing at that point. Still stressful, still stressful, 633 00:38:02,956 --> 00:38:06,116 Speaker 1: but at least it was like again I knew what 634 00:38:06,196 --> 00:38:08,436 Speaker 1: I needed to do and what I needed to get done, 635 00:38:09,156 --> 00:38:13,116 Speaker 1: and even though I waited a long time to do 636 00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:15,516 Speaker 1: the trial, I was going to be able to walk 637 00:38:15,556 --> 00:38:19,316 Speaker 1: out of there in three days time. And that was it, 638 00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:24,516 Speaker 1: that was it. I know you've said that while you 639 00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:26,916 Speaker 1: did feel a certain kind of calm descend upon you, 640 00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:28,876 Speaker 1: the other side of this was that it led to 641 00:38:29,196 --> 00:38:32,956 Speaker 1: a severe relapse of PTSD. Yeah, you know, there was 642 00:38:32,956 --> 00:38:37,436 Speaker 1: a trial in the final relief and the realization of 643 00:38:37,476 --> 00:38:39,556 Speaker 1: the fact that like, yeah, I get a walk out 644 00:38:39,596 --> 00:38:42,076 Speaker 1: of here in three days, But the build up for 645 00:38:42,156 --> 00:38:45,156 Speaker 1: that was just so severe. It was funny when you're 646 00:38:45,596 --> 00:38:49,316 Speaker 1: suffering from PTSD and people are telling you these things 647 00:38:49,316 --> 00:38:52,396 Speaker 1: like you're courageous, you're brave, you're a hero. Gosh, I 648 00:38:52,396 --> 00:38:56,756 Speaker 1: can't even go to the grocery store without having a 649 00:38:56,756 --> 00:39:03,596 Speaker 1: panic attack, right, And and that like positioning of the 650 00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:06,476 Speaker 1: fact of like, oh my god, is this what like 651 00:39:07,036 --> 00:39:09,516 Speaker 1: is this what being a hero feels like? Because this 652 00:39:09,556 --> 00:39:13,676 Speaker 1: shit's terrible, right, It's just so hard on your body 653 00:39:15,636 --> 00:39:19,836 Speaker 1: and everything. Basically, from that point that I received the 654 00:39:19,916 --> 00:39:23,476 Speaker 1: subpoena and from the fact that I had now been 655 00:39:23,556 --> 00:39:27,796 Speaker 1: more publicly on the record as being a whistleblower, I 656 00:39:27,836 --> 00:39:31,916 Speaker 1: couldn't quite figure out what was wrong with me. But 657 00:39:32,876 --> 00:39:37,316 Speaker 1: as time went on and I moved back to the US, 658 00:39:37,436 --> 00:39:40,716 Speaker 1: it started to become more and more clear that I 659 00:39:40,796 --> 00:39:44,676 Speaker 1: was having a really difficult time managing my hyper vigilance. 660 00:39:45,196 --> 00:39:50,476 Speaker 1: I was having panic attacks again. I was paranoid about 661 00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:54,356 Speaker 1: people following me. I was having nightmares every other day, 662 00:39:55,036 --> 00:39:58,036 Speaker 1: and it came to the surface that I was having 663 00:39:58,076 --> 00:40:01,476 Speaker 1: another big relapse in PTSD. And in a way, it 664 00:40:01,556 --> 00:40:04,116 Speaker 1: was good that the trial had gotten pushed because it 665 00:40:04,196 --> 00:40:07,596 Speaker 1: allowed me to sort of take the energy in focus on, 666 00:40:08,316 --> 00:40:10,956 Speaker 1: you know, really fronting a lot of the things that 667 00:40:11,076 --> 00:40:13,756 Speaker 1: I had avoided. You know, I had moved to Hong Kong, 668 00:40:14,516 --> 00:40:16,996 Speaker 1: I had built this whole new life for myself. I 669 00:40:17,076 --> 00:40:20,676 Speaker 1: really had detached myself from everything their nose. Like when 670 00:40:20,716 --> 00:40:23,516 Speaker 1: people in Hong Kong figure it out that I reported 671 00:40:23,556 --> 00:40:26,076 Speaker 1: their nose, they were shocked because it was something I 672 00:40:26,316 --> 00:40:31,796 Speaker 1: never talked about. No one had any idea, and I 673 00:40:31,836 --> 00:40:37,436 Speaker 1: didn't realize like when someone has PTSD, a big portion 674 00:40:37,516 --> 00:40:42,236 Speaker 1: of it is avoidance. It is trying to not bring 675 00:40:42,356 --> 00:40:46,316 Speaker 1: up anything that reminds you of the traumatic event. And 676 00:40:46,396 --> 00:40:50,116 Speaker 1: I think I spent years in that state of just 677 00:40:50,276 --> 00:40:54,476 Speaker 1: wanting to push all of this as far away as 678 00:40:54,556 --> 00:40:59,916 Speaker 1: possible from myself. And when I had moved back to 679 00:40:59,956 --> 00:41:02,796 Speaker 1: the States and the subpoena was happening, and I was 680 00:41:02,836 --> 00:41:05,916 Speaker 1: sort of thrust upon this world. It really caused this 681 00:41:05,996 --> 00:41:11,876 Speaker 1: huge relapse for me, and so I think that build 682 00:41:11,916 --> 00:41:18,076 Speaker 1: up it was exhausting and very trying, but also maybe 683 00:41:18,076 --> 00:41:22,316 Speaker 1: a good thing, because I was really forced to just 684 00:41:22,396 --> 00:41:31,556 Speaker 1: sit with myself and really process and develop a better 685 00:41:31,636 --> 00:41:35,636 Speaker 1: coping system for the things that happened to me. I 686 00:41:35,716 --> 00:41:41,316 Speaker 1: really resonate with the sentiment around extreme avoidance when it 687 00:41:41,316 --> 00:41:47,956 Speaker 1: comes to past pain and trauma and at times where 688 00:41:47,956 --> 00:41:49,876 Speaker 1: I've been, you know, really anxious in the past, like 689 00:41:49,916 --> 00:41:52,396 Speaker 1: I will go to the ends of the earth to 690 00:41:52,436 --> 00:41:58,236 Speaker 1: try to avoid engaging just to feel safe, right. I mean, 691 00:41:58,276 --> 00:42:01,596 Speaker 1: I think that's just like a very instinctive human response. 692 00:42:01,756 --> 00:42:07,716 Speaker 1: And I do wonder whether I mean this therein as 693 00:42:07,756 --> 00:42:13,436 Speaker 1: Saga forced upon you a kind of exposure therapy of 694 00:42:13,476 --> 00:42:18,476 Speaker 1: sorts that you might have never yourself instigated, right, because 695 00:42:18,476 --> 00:42:20,996 Speaker 1: it is so painful to have to revisit every single 696 00:42:20,996 --> 00:42:23,276 Speaker 1: detail and to have to like re engage with that world. 697 00:42:24,396 --> 00:42:27,476 Speaker 1: And I do wonder if maybe there's one silver lining here, 698 00:42:27,596 --> 00:42:32,516 Speaker 1: which is that it empowered you to engage differently with 699 00:42:32,596 --> 00:42:35,356 Speaker 1: past traumas, to maybe be less avoidant with those past 700 00:42:35,396 --> 00:42:39,156 Speaker 1: traumas and to maybe revisit them in a different way. Yeah, yeah, 701 00:42:39,236 --> 00:42:43,036 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly true. Like it's it's amazing how 702 00:42:43,116 --> 00:42:48,636 Speaker 1: much it brought to a head my need to be 703 00:42:48,836 --> 00:42:55,516 Speaker 1: vulnerable and to be able to confront things head on 704 00:42:56,036 --> 00:42:59,156 Speaker 1: going on with myself. I feel like I needed to 705 00:42:59,196 --> 00:43:02,596 Speaker 1: just sit with myself and come to a greater sense 706 00:43:02,716 --> 00:43:11,836 Speaker 1: of like compassion in a way with myself. And yeah, 707 00:43:11,876 --> 00:43:15,076 Speaker 1: it did. It did help. It was weird that that 708 00:43:15,276 --> 00:43:18,276 Speaker 1: sort of instigated the process of the healing of so 709 00:43:18,356 --> 00:43:21,596 Speaker 1: many things that happened. It was so extended soon beyond 710 00:43:21,796 --> 00:43:23,996 Speaker 1: what happened it there, nos right, it extended from what 711 00:43:24,036 --> 00:43:25,836 Speaker 1: happened to me when I was a kid or when 712 00:43:25,836 --> 00:43:29,356 Speaker 1: I was in college. And I think because of that 713 00:43:29,476 --> 00:43:33,316 Speaker 1: just in your face kind of you will deal with 714 00:43:33,356 --> 00:43:36,036 Speaker 1: this whether you like it or not nature of being 715 00:43:36,196 --> 00:43:39,796 Speaker 1: In this case, like I'm stronger because of it and 716 00:43:39,916 --> 00:43:43,556 Speaker 1: having it had an immense amount of growth, And in 717 00:43:43,596 --> 00:43:47,276 Speaker 1: a way, I'm almost grateful for that because it's it's 718 00:43:47,316 --> 00:43:52,636 Speaker 1: interesting with this case because like this was my first 719 00:43:52,716 --> 00:43:57,396 Speaker 1: job out of college and now my I have the 720 00:43:57,436 --> 00:43:59,836 Speaker 1: rest of my life ahead of me. Like I'm really 721 00:43:59,836 --> 00:44:02,996 Speaker 1: when you think about it, professionally, just getting started and 722 00:44:03,076 --> 00:44:05,876 Speaker 1: the fact that now I can have a sense of 723 00:44:07,076 --> 00:44:10,716 Speaker 1: just almost freedom in a way that I trust myself 724 00:44:10,836 --> 00:44:14,516 Speaker 1: that I have the right tools and the right abilities 725 00:44:14,556 --> 00:44:19,956 Speaker 1: to be able to be resilient, and to just have 726 00:44:20,236 --> 00:44:24,716 Speaker 1: that sense of security in myself is nice. So even 727 00:44:24,956 --> 00:44:27,676 Speaker 1: there's always silver linings to things, and even though there's 728 00:44:27,716 --> 00:44:31,036 Speaker 1: like post traumatic stress disorder, there's also post traumatic growth, 729 00:44:31,156 --> 00:44:35,876 Speaker 1: and I think I'm starting to see to see that 730 00:44:36,076 --> 00:44:40,036 Speaker 1: side of this whole experience, which I'm i think, in 731 00:44:40,396 --> 00:44:42,476 Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things, going to be very very 732 00:44:42,476 --> 00:44:51,596 Speaker 1: grateful for. In the years following Erica's letter to federal regulators, 733 00:44:51,996 --> 00:44:55,956 Speaker 1: a slew of civil and criminal charges were filed against Saranos, 734 00:44:56,036 --> 00:45:02,356 Speaker 1: CEO Elizabeth Holnes and COOO Senni Bolani. Saronos's valuation plummeted 735 00:45:02,436 --> 00:45:06,236 Speaker 1: to zero. Elizabeth and Sonny were both found guilty of 736 00:45:06,276 --> 00:45:10,236 Speaker 1: fraud and two separate criminal trials this year. Elizabeth was 737 00:45:10,276 --> 00:45:13,396 Speaker 1: convicted of four counts of fraud and Sonny was convicted 738 00:45:13,396 --> 00:45:16,596 Speaker 1: of twelve counts of fraud. They will both be sentenced 739 00:45:16,676 --> 00:45:24,436 Speaker 1: later this year and could face decades in prison. That's 740 00:45:24,476 --> 00:45:27,036 Speaker 1: a wrap on this season of a slight change of plans. 741 00:45:27,276 --> 00:45:30,036 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back in September 742 00:45:30,076 --> 00:45:33,436 Speaker 1: with more episodes. Until then, have a great summer break. 743 00:45:37,156 --> 00:45:40,036 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written an executive 744 00:45:40,076 --> 00:45:43,836 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes 745 00:45:43,916 --> 00:45:47,596 Speaker 1: Tyler Greene, our senior producer, Emily Rosteck, our producer and 746 00:45:47,636 --> 00:45:51,676 Speaker 1: fact checker, Jan Guera, our senior editor, Neil LaBelle, our 747 00:45:51,756 --> 00:45:55,916 Speaker 1: executive producer, and our engineering team which includes Ben Holliday, 748 00:45:56,036 --> 00:46:01,556 Speaker 1: Jay Korski, Sarah Bruger and Andrew Vastola. Louis Skara wrote 749 00:46:01,556 --> 00:46:04,476 Speaker 1: our theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 750 00:46:05,196 --> 00:46:08,276 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 751 00:46:08,356 --> 00:46:11,596 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 752 00:46:11,836 --> 00:46:15,236 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 753 00:46:15,236 --> 00:46:18,516 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. 754 00:46:27,636 --> 00:46:32,196 Speaker 1: And So, the Edison Devices, which was theirinosa's actual proprietary machine, 755 00:46:32,236 --> 00:46:35,756 Speaker 1: could only do twelve of those tests. They couldn't even 756 00:46:35,876 --> 00:46:40,156 Speaker 1: do as many as people had anticipated. And from what 757 00:46:40,196 --> 00:46:42,596 Speaker 1: I understand, Erica, even the twelve tests that the Edison 758 00:46:42,636 --> 00:46:47,236 Speaker 1: could run weren't generating reliable results. That is right, That 759 00:46:47,356 --> 00:46:50,236 Speaker 1: is right? Yeah, wow, Okay, so literally just mean it 760 00:46:50,316 --> 00:46:53,636 Speaker 1: was capable of generating a result, not even like the 761 00:46:53,716 --> 00:46:56,836 Speaker 1: correct result, an accurate result. Yeah, it's like, great, I 762 00:46:56,836 --> 00:47:00,876 Speaker 1: have a device that it's a great bar for laboratories 763 00:47:00,876 --> 00:47:04,276 Speaker 1: to have. It doesn't break, no, exactly, well, it spits 764 00:47:04,276 --> 00:47:04,956 Speaker 1: out a number