Speaker 1: Literally, if you turn any packet around, everything is canola oil,
Speaker 1: palm oil, and palm oil. Aside from all the environmental
Speaker 1: effects yeah, which are terrible. Although the fatty acid profile
Speaker 1: is okay, most of the commercially produced canal oil is
Speaker 1: heavily contaminated with agrichemicals and that's extracted with heat and solvents,
Speaker 1: and that natures the oil and creates coarcinogenic products. Hey everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast
Speaker 1: in the world. Thanks to each and every one of
Speaker 1: you that come back every week to become healthier, happier,
Speaker 1: and more healed. And I am so excited to be
Speaker 1: talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book,
Speaker 1: Eight Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait
Speaker 1: to share it with you. I am so so excited
Speaker 1: for you to read this book, for you to listen
Speaker 1: to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't
Speaker 1: got it already, make sure you go to eight Rules
Speaker 1: of Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying
Speaker 1: to find, keep, or let go of love. So if
Speaker 1: you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling
Speaker 1: with love, make sure you grab this book and I'd
Speaker 1: love to invite you to come and see me for
Speaker 1: my global tour Love Rules. Go to j Sheedy tour
Speaker 1: dot com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences,
Speaker 1: and more. I can't wait to see you this year. Now,
Speaker 1: you know that I'm a curious person who wants to
Speaker 1: learn more and more about our mind, our body, our health,
Speaker 1: and tools and techniques that can improve that for us.
Speaker 1: And I like sitting down with individuals who've dedicated their
Speaker 1: lives and their lives work to understanding what can improve
Speaker 1: the lives of others. Today's guest is someone I've been
Speaker 1: really looking forward to having on the show. I know
Speaker 1: you will be really excited as well. We're going to
Speaker 1: be talking about a wide array of subjects, but I'm
Speaker 1: going to give you really practical, insightful tips and tools
Speaker 1: that you can put into life and day immediately to
Speaker 1: make an impact. My guest today is doctor Andrew Wilde,
Speaker 1: a world renowned leader and pioneer in the field of
Speaker 1: integrative medicine. Combining a Harvard education and a lifetime of
Speaker 1: practicing natural and preventive medicine. Doctor Wile is the founder
Speaker 1: and director of the Andrew wild Center for Integrative Medicine
Speaker 1: at the University of Arizona, where he is a clinical
Speaker 1: Professor of Medicine and Professor of Public Health. A New
Speaker 1: York Times best selling author, Doctor Wile is the author
Speaker 1: of fifteen books on health and wellbeing. Doctor While is
Speaker 1: also the founder and partner in the growing family of
Speaker 1: True Food kitchen restaurants. Doctor Wild's current project includemacher dot
Speaker 1: com bringing the world's best matcha to the West. I
Speaker 1: am so excited to welcome doctor Andrew. While Andrew, thank
Speaker 1: you for being here. I'm very excited to learn from
Speaker 1: you about a subject matter that has so much, as
Speaker 1: we were talking about briefly before, has no insight, bad insight.
Speaker 1: You know, I feel people are underserved in this space,
Speaker 1: and so let's dive straight in. The first thing I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you and dive into you with was
Speaker 1: this was this thought around what are the diet and
Speaker 1: lifestyle habits people need to do every day to live longer,
Speaker 1: healthier and prevent cognitive decline. Well, you know, that's fairly simple.
Speaker 1: The first rule of healthy eating is to avoid refined
Speaker 1: process and manufactured food. You know, that's what's doing us
Speaker 1: in And I'm one of the first people to have
Speaker 1: begun talking about the importance of containing inappropriate inflammation. And
Speaker 1: I have developed an anti inflammatory diet based on the
Speaker 1: Mediterranean diet, but I added Asian influences to that because
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time in Asia and there
Speaker 1: are things there like mushrooms and turmeric and tea that
Speaker 1: I find very useful. But it really looks there's more
Speaker 1: and more evidence that chronic, low level inappropriate inflammation is
Speaker 1: the root cause of most of the serious diseases that
Speaker 1: do people in prematurely. So containing inflammation is very important
Speaker 1: and diet has a major influence there. But again, the
Speaker 1: first step of an anti inflammatory diet is to try
Speaker 1: to eliminate refined process to manufactured foods. In terms of
Speaker 1: other lifestyle practices, basic ones maintain physical activity throughout life,
Speaker 1: get good rest and sleep, learn and practice some methods
Speaker 1: of neutralizing the harmful effects of stress on the mind
Speaker 1: and the body. Maintaining good relationships, especially spending time with
Speaker 1: people and whose company you feel more positive. I mean,
Speaker 1: those are very simple steps. As for cognitive decline, this
Speaker 1: is of great concern to many people because we all
Speaker 1: know people who have experienced cognitive decline and we want
Speaker 1: to avoid that. So I think two very practical pieces
Speaker 1: of advice. One is don't get hit in the head,
Speaker 1: and that may mean, you know, taking precautions if you're
Speaker 1: doing hazardous activities and being you know, I don't recommend
Speaker 1: that people play for American football, for example. And another
Speaker 1: is don't smoke because nicotine constricts blood vessels reduces blood
Speaker 1: flow of the brain. So those are two two simple steps.
Speaker 1: I think. Also I recommend practices like doing word puzzles
Speaker 1: to keep your mind active. Learning another language. You don't
Speaker 1: have to master the language, just the attempt to learn
Speaker 1: it is very useful. So those are those. There are
Speaker 1: some pieces of practical information. Yeah, I think you've given
Speaker 1: us a beautiful spectrum of things to focus on there,
Speaker 1: and I think I definitely in my life try and
Speaker 1: tackle one of those areas every year. Great because I
Speaker 1: feel that they're so big in and of themselves. And
Speaker 1: my biggest mistake in the past was when I tried
Speaker 1: to change everything everything at the same time, you're trying
Speaker 1: to improve your relationship, you're trying to improve your gut,
Speaker 1: you're trying to improve your workout regime, and so I
Speaker 1: love what you're saying that there's all these things, and
Speaker 1: I would listen, everyone who's listening and watching, please try
Speaker 1: to choose one thing that you're going to try to
Speaker 1: deeply improve this year that you feel is the one
Speaker 1: you're struggling with the most, that maybe having the most
Speaker 1: negative impact on you, because you'll start to see how
Speaker 1: they all affect each other. Yeah, it doesn't. You don't
Speaker 1: have to wait a year, however, right. I have a
Speaker 1: book called eight Weeks Stop Them Health Program. Each week,
Speaker 1: you know, you do something like you start by walking
Speaker 1: ten minutes a day and each week you add you know,
Speaker 1: five minutes to that. But I think you're quite right
Speaker 1: that a big mistake that people make is to try
Speaker 1: to do global change and then they give up. So
Speaker 1: I think it's best to take it in small bites. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's dive into some of those, because I think they're
Speaker 1: easier said than done. So what you just spoke about
Speaker 1: with diet, that's something that I've genuinely been focusing on,
Speaker 1: probably for the past twelve months, in terms of not
Speaker 1: eating any pack foods and refine sugars and processed foods,
Speaker 1: and so I'm eating only natural foods. I'm already plant
Speaker 1: based in my diet, but making sure that I'm eating
Speaker 1: vegetables and trying to avoid anything that's out of a packet.
Speaker 1: It's easier said than done. It took a lot of
Speaker 1: time for me to kind of move in that direction
Speaker 1: to find a meal prep service. I have an amazing
Speaker 1: wife who's an incredible cook and chef, and so that
Speaker 1: helps you a million times over. For people that are
Speaker 1: trying to make simple steps to changing specifically their diet
Speaker 1: to an anti inflammatory diet, what a certain simple steps.
Speaker 1: People condemn it the eight week version almost well, you know,
Speaker 1: in the book, I said, learn how to be friendly
Speaker 1: with broccoli. Broccoli is a very easy vegetable to cook,
Speaker 1: but most many people overcook it and it's not very appetizing.
Speaker 1: And there's a very simple way of cooking it for
Speaker 1: about two minutes, so it's bright green and crunchy. Put
Speaker 1: some olive oil on a garlic if you want. But
Speaker 1: that's a wonderful powerhouse of vegetable with cancer protective effects.
Speaker 1: Add some ores to your diet because they're full of antioxidants.
Speaker 1: We talked about, I mentioned tea. I think tea is
Speaker 1: a very healthful beverage. It's one of the main sources
Speaker 1: of protective antioxidants. I think it's good to learn different
Speaker 1: types of tea and how to add find which ones
Speaker 1: you like. What specific teas have you found to have
Speaker 1: those benefits. Well, I'm a big fan of green tea
Speaker 1: because I've spent a lot of time in Japan and
Speaker 1: particularly maucha green tea, which I think is you know,
Speaker 1: as the highest levels of some of these protective elements
Speaker 1: in them. But I think all tea is beneficial. When
Speaker 1: I was doing research on healthy aging, I made a
Speaker 1: number of trips to Okinawa, which at the time that
Speaker 1: I was doing it had the highest concentration of centenarians
Speaker 1: in the world. And one of the things that I
Speaker 1: observed there was that in very hot weather, people were
Speaker 1: drinking cold, unsweetened turmeric tea delicious. And you know, in
Speaker 1: North America people are really unfamiliar with turmeric except as
Speaker 1: it occurs in yellow mustard and curry. But this form
Speaker 1: of turmeric and Okinawa was fermented and which makes it
Speaker 1: more bioavailable and tastier. It dissolves very quickly in cold water.
Speaker 1: It's really delicious. So that's one that I recommend, you know,
Speaker 1: learning how to get more turmeric into your diet. It's
Speaker 1: the most powerful anti inflammatory agent, natural anti inflammatory agent
Speaker 1: that we know. Wow. Yeah, turmeric is a big part
Speaker 1: of the Indian diet. Sod Indians eated at every meal. Yes,
Speaker 1: and you know, one of the interesting correlations India. I
Speaker 1: think rural India especially has the lowest rate of Alzheimer's
Speaker 1: disease in the world, and many researchers think that's related
Speaker 1: to the regular consumption of turmeric because Alzheimer's beiglins as
Speaker 1: inflammation in the brain, and there's some animal research showing
Speaker 1: that turmeric can protect rats that are genetically programmed to
Speaker 1: develop Alzheimer's from developing it. So I think turmeric is
Speaker 1: a very good thing to become friendly with. That's that's
Speaker 1: great insight. I love that story of going to Okinawa.
Speaker 1: I went to Sardinia a few years ago. Well, that's
Speaker 1: one of the healthy, one of the blue zones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and what's interesting, I want to hear what you saw there.
Speaker 1: But the you know, if you go to these areas
Speaker 1: around the world where there are unusual concentrations of very
Speaker 1: healthy old people, women out and number men by a
Speaker 1: long shot. You know, when you get up in the
Speaker 1: ranges of upper nineties hundreds. It's almost all women. Sardinia
Speaker 1: is the one exception that there men and women are
Speaker 1: equally in those ranks of the oldest old and we
Speaker 1: don't know why. Yeah, yeah, I was really fascinated to
Speaker 1: see the few things and it's and it's all on
Speaker 1: the spectrum of things you mentioned. But what was really
Speaker 1: interesting is that their workouts when natural. Of course it
Speaker 1: was farming. They were walking, they were taking care of
Speaker 1: the land. Same in Okinawa, they were tauling, fishing nets
Speaker 1: and gardening. I saw a thin one hundred and two
Speaker 1: year old woman who was hoeing the garden in front
Speaker 1: of her house. So that they're not going to gyms,
Speaker 1: they're not working with trainers, it's just daily activity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing was that they were eating
Speaker 1: foods only in season. Everything was picked locally, everything was
Speaker 1: locally grown or locally found, and they weren't eating things
Speaker 1: that were just artificially available. And what about social connectedness,
Speaker 1: I mean that was a big part of it. I
Speaker 1: mean people were living in bigger families or living closer
Speaker 1: by to families with children, so children weren't just being
Speaker 1: raised by two people, that by ten people. And every
Speaker 1: evening and even during the middle of the day they
Speaker 1: would get together, and I think that's very important. They
Speaker 1: MacArthur Foundation some years ago did a study of successful aging.
Speaker 1: They identified a population of people they considered successful agers,
Speaker 1: and then they looked to see what were the outstanding
Speaker 1: commonalities and the two that stood out and this worked
Speaker 1: everything else, whether they took supplements, whether they dietary patterns.
Speaker 1: The two were maintenance of physical activity throughout life and
Speaker 1: maintenance of social intellectual connectedness. I want to dive into
Speaker 1: two things that you mentioned earlier, and I want to
Speaker 1: dive into them deeply because I think, again they're buzzwords.
Speaker 1: People know about them, but I'd like people to really
Speaker 1: understand the benefits. So let's talk about macha because that's
Speaker 1: your favorite daily plant. Yeah, an Ally, would you say,
Speaker 1: has this incredible mind body benefit? I think it has
Speaker 1: already seeped to twin mainstrement. Yea's quite amazing. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: went to Japan when I was seventeen and lived with families,
Speaker 1: one family outside of Tokyo, and this was nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 1: Japan was a very different place and the second night
Speaker 1: that I was there, my host mother we had no
Speaker 1: language in common. Took me next door to her neighbor
Speaker 1: who practiced tea ceremony. So the three of us sat around,
Speaker 1: and the neighbor did a tea ceremony and presented me
Speaker 1: with a bowl of macha. And two things about it
Speaker 1: totally caught my attention. When was the color, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: this vibrant green. And the other was the bamboo whisk
Speaker 1: that you used to whisk the macha tea into a
Speaker 1: froth in a bowl of water. It's carved from a
Speaker 1: single piece of bamboo. Just a miracle of Japanese craftsmanship.
Speaker 1: So I fell in love with macha. When I got
Speaker 1: back to the States, nobody knew anything about it or
Speaker 1: ever heard of it. Over the years, when I was
Speaker 1: go to Japan, i'd bring macha back and I turned
Speaker 1: people onto it. I tried starting in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: I partnered with the Japanese company to try to sell
Speaker 1: it on my website. There was no market for it.
Speaker 1: I did that again in the nineteen nineties. Anyway, it's
Speaker 1: quite amazing now to see this penetrating our culture. Macha
Speaker 1: is prepared in a very unique way. The tea plants
Speaker 1: are heavily shaded for three weeks before harvest and ninety
Speaker 1: percent in shade cloth, so it cuts out almost all sunlight.
Speaker 1: In response to that, the leaves get bigger and thinner
Speaker 1: and produce more chlorophyll, trying to take advantage of what
Speaker 1: light is there. And they also produce more antioxidants and
Speaker 1: flavor compounds and this amino acid al ponine that has
Speaker 1: a calming effect and moderates the action of caffeine. So
Speaker 1: for that reason, macha I think is more healthful than
Speaker 1: other forms of tea. And also you consume the whole leaf,
Speaker 1: just an infusion of it. So that's one that I'm
Speaker 1: quite enthusiastic about. And I started a company. We got
Speaker 1: the uurlmacha dot com, which was which was a great two.
Speaker 1: How when did you get that? Last? Did you have
Speaker 1: to buy it? It's like six or six or seven years.
Speaker 1: We tracked it down. It was owned by a Japanese
Speaker 1: man who had no idea what he had. He had
Speaker 1: if he went to the site. He had pictures of
Speaker 1: his cats, and my business partner, Andre Fasciola, managed to
Speaker 1: negotiate with him and we got it at a quite
Speaker 1: reasonable price. People in Japan can't believe we've got we've
Speaker 1: got that. Anyway, We've repoured very high quality matcha. And
Speaker 1: by the way, if your if your listeners use a
Speaker 1: discount code J, we'll give them a very generous discount here.
Speaker 1: So I'm a big fan of matcha. I'm delighted to
Speaker 1: see the gaining traction. However, a lot of the matcha
Speaker 1: here is not very good because it's such a fine
Speaker 1: powder that unless it's carefully protected, it oxidizes very quickly,
Speaker 1: loses its brilliant green color, becomes bitter. And many people
Speaker 1: have tried much and say they don't like it, but
Speaker 1: they've never tasted good much. So, as I said, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of research has been done on green
Speaker 1: tea in particular, but all tea has beneficial effects. And frankly,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to bash coffee, but I
Speaker 1: would love to see more of a tea culture developed
Speaker 1: here too. Good. I know, so coffee, You know, the
Speaker 1: stimulant effects of coffee and tea are very different. Coffee
Speaker 1: is much more jangling, It is much more associated with
Speaker 1: truly addictive behavior. There's a real crash coming down from coffee.
Speaker 1: You don't see any of that with tea. And some
Speaker 1: of it is because of this modifying effect of ALTHENI.
Speaker 1: But also I find it interesting that the historically and
Speaker 1: culturally the associations with coffee Coffee was always associated with
Speaker 1: kind of argumentative behavior, loud, raucous gatherings of people, political activism,
Speaker 1: whereas tea, the historical associations are much more with contemplation, meditation.
Speaker 1: I think it would be very beneficial to see a
Speaker 1: greater tea culture develop in North America. You know, that
Speaker 1: could work its way into some of the coffee culture
Speaker 1: that's now so dominant. Yeah. When me and my wife
Speaker 1: launched our tea company, we said we wanted to make
Speaker 1: tea as hot as coffee, like that, like that was
Speaker 1: the goal, because yeah, we grew up with tea culture
Speaker 1: boats from our British and Indian heritage. Sure. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: found it so therapeutic. I like, you love the color,
Speaker 1: love the scent. Yeah, I love the experience of having
Speaker 1: to drink it slow. You don't really have tea exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: There's a meditative exactly process with any healing property too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's a big change. When I was growing up,
Speaker 1: tea was what old people and sick people drank. In
Speaker 1: this country, and it's wonderful to see that change now. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And the other one that I want to ask you
Speaker 1: about was the Green Mediterranean diet. Yes, this is interesting.
Speaker 1: It's just recently been in the news. We have so
Speaker 1: much scientific evidence for the benefits of the Mediterranean diet
Speaker 1: in terms of longevity overall, lowest risks of disease. And
Speaker 1: I think most of your listeners are familiar with the
Speaker 1: Mediterranean diet. You know, it's heavily on fruits and vegetables
Speaker 1: and whole grains, olive oils, I mean cooking fat and
Speaker 1: meat used very occasionally, oily, fish relively low, and sugar
Speaker 1: so forth. So recently a green Mediterranean diet is proposed
Speaker 1: as being even healthier, and this reduces animal products even further,
Speaker 1: increases fruits and vegetables, especially sources of a class of
Speaker 1: compounds called polyphenols. And these are antioxidant compounds that are
Speaker 1: found in plants and fruits and vegetables, especially berries, tea,
Speaker 1: and dark chocolate. So the Green Mediterranean Diet specifically recommended
Speaker 1: green tea to add and they noted chocolate, but they
Speaker 1: mentioned old tea. So I think this is fascinating, you know,
Speaker 1: to see and these are researchers really, you know, not
Speaker 1: really trying to promote any agenda. Yeah, has your work
Speaker 1: led to any of the research that I'm recently seeing
Speaker 1: around like canola oil palm oil and the negative harmful
Speaker 1: effects versus what now I'm only eating in his avocado
Speaker 1: oil and olive oil yep, as my product. There's one
Speaker 1: other that you should check out as algae oil. If
Speaker 1: you don't know. Okay, this is a new product that's
Speaker 1: out there and it's it's made through culture. It's called
Speaker 1: cultured oil, and it's it's microorganisms that have been been
Speaker 1: altered in to produce oil which is almost all mono
Speaker 1: unsaturated fat. Is has a very high smoke point, neutral
Speaker 1: taste and also has one of the Omega three fatty
Speaker 1: acids in it. So that's another choice. But those are
Speaker 1: the ones I use. Also avocado and olives. And what
Speaker 1: are some of the harmful effects of the canola palm
Speaker 1: oil that because they're pretty much literally, if you turn
Speaker 1: any packet around, everything is canola o palm oil palm oil.
Speaker 1: Aside from all the environmental effects which are terrible. There
Speaker 1: are two kinds of palm oils. There's an oil extracted
Speaker 1: from the fruit of the oil palm, which is red
Speaker 1: and is used in Africa as a cooking oil and
Speaker 1: is okay, but we rarely see that. And then there's
Speaker 1: the oil extracted from the kernel, and that is very
Speaker 1: high in the unstable unsaturated fatty acids that oxidize quickly.
Speaker 1: It's also very high unsaturated fat so that's not a
Speaker 1: good one. Canola oil is a you know the word,
Speaker 1: it means Canadian oil and it was developed by Canadian scientists,
Speaker 1: I think in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties from
Speaker 1: a traditional cooking oil that you know in India, rape
Speaker 1: seed oil. Yes, that's right, and rape has a toxic
Speaker 1: fatty acid and it possibly the Canadian scientists worked with
Speaker 1: it to develop one that was low in that in
Speaker 1: that fatty acid problems with canola oil. Although the fatty
Speaker 1: acid a profile is okay, most of the commercially produced
Speaker 1: cannel oil is heavily contaminated with agrichemicals and it's extracted
Speaker 1: with heat and solvents, and that denatures the oil and
Speaker 1: creates carcinogenic products. So it's one I would stay away
Speaker 1: from now. I recommend it in the past, but I
Speaker 1: don't anymore. I'm a big fan of olive oil. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely no, everyone cook cook with olive by the way.
Speaker 1: I've taught, you know, I've I've worked with a number
Speaker 1: of Indian patients, you know, who were very convinced that
Speaker 1: gee can do no harm, you know, and it's pure
Speaker 1: butter fat and it's probably not healthy, and the rates
Speaker 1: of cardiovascar disease in the air pretty high. And I've
Speaker 1: taught people to use ge as a flavoring, you know,
Speaker 1: cook with a healthy ore like avocado, and then at
Speaker 1: the end you can drizzle some ge over to get
Speaker 1: the flavor you want. Yeah, and I've also suggested I
Speaker 1: had a student, a physician from Kerala where coconut you know,
Speaker 1: our land end of coconuts, and they use coconut oil
Speaker 1: and coconut have full fat coconut milk, and I taught
Speaker 1: her to use cashing milk, which is very easy to
Speaker 1: make and this much healthier fat than than coconut. It's
Speaker 1: mono un saturated and not saturated, and the taste is delicious. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's good to know about gee because yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: one of those things that my mom never wants me
Speaker 1: to miss, right, I know, but then I always hear
Speaker 1: this like yeah, in between, but I like I like
Speaker 1: the yeah, use it as a flavoring. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I like the happy medium, the happy balance. That makes
Speaker 1: it sure we happy to hear about the turma. It good,
Speaker 1: that's like and saffron's the other one. She's like, never
Speaker 1: telling me to miss and that's a good one. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the turmeric, you know, our company also sells that
Speaker 1: for men, a turmeric from Okinahwa. And I will send
Speaker 1: you something to try please. That's delicious. That sounds amazing,
Speaker 1: really good. This show is sponsored by Better Help. When
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Speaker 1: se zippercruter the smartest way to hire. It's fascinating you
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. Limiting the smokeing of cigarettes and the negative
Speaker 1: effects of nicotine. What about when it comes to marijuana.
Speaker 1: I think that you know, marijuana is such an interesting
Speaker 1: topic for so many people today. There there are so
Speaker 1: many perspectives. Most of them out there are like positive.
Speaker 1: But I'd love to know from your perspective, how are
Speaker 1: you seeing marijuana affect the brain? How are you seeing
Speaker 1: marijuana affect the actual First of all, I'm gonna call it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it cannabis because the word marijuana has
Speaker 1: negative connotations. So let's talk about cannabis. Yes, so I
Speaker 1: did the first controlled human experiments with cannabis in the
Speaker 1: nineteen he's nineteen sixty four. It was the first time
Speaker 1: anyone had given that to human subjects in a controlled
Speaker 1: fashion to see what it did. So it's a plant
Speaker 1: that I've been involved with for some time. And let
Speaker 1: me say, you know, this is also a plant very
Speaker 1: well known in India. It's you know, native to uh
Speaker 1: To Asia. Um. The word it's the main species Cannabis ativa.
Speaker 1: The stiva means useful, and cannabis is hemp. It's the
Speaker 1: same root as canvas because canvas used to be made
Speaker 1: from hemp fiber. But this is a very useful plant.
Speaker 1: It provides an edible seed, in edible oil, a fiber
Speaker 1: of metal, us and intoxic and that's a lot of
Speaker 1: ways for one plant to serve us, and it really
Speaker 1: only wants to serve us, and I think we have
Speaker 1: really not been wise in the way we've dealt with
Speaker 1: that plan. So in terms of the intoxicating properties of cannabis,
Speaker 1: this is a it's a difficult subject to talk about
Speaker 1: because the chemistry of that plant is so complex, there's
Speaker 1: so many different strains, and there's so much variation in
Speaker 1: individual reaction to it. Now, there are people who can
Speaker 1: smoke cannabis before bed and have a great night's sleep.
Speaker 1: Other people smoke it before bed and they can't sleep
Speaker 1: the entire night, So there's that kind of disparity in
Speaker 1: reactions to it. First of all, that it is one
Speaker 1: of the least toxic drugs that we know. You can't
Speaker 1: kill people with it, and you can't say that about
Speaker 1: any drug that we use in medicine. And every drug
Speaker 1: has a lethal dose, and in some cases the lethal
Speaker 1: dose is relatively close to the useful dose. You can't
Speaker 1: calculate a lethal dose for cannabis, So on a physical level,
Speaker 1: it's extremely safe. I mean, there's concerns about smoking it
Speaker 1: and whether that's how harmful that maybe for lungs. You know,
Speaker 1: that goes back and forth. I don't think it's a
Speaker 1: great idea to smoke anything, you know, and inhale smoke
Speaker 1: into the lungs. Probably not a good idea, but certainly
Speaker 1: not as I think, not as toxic as tobacco when
Speaker 1: it doesn't have anything in it, as addictive as nicotine,
Speaker 1: which is one of the most addictive drugs that we know.
Speaker 1: I think the medical usefulness of cannabis, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of potential there and I think this is a subject
Speaker 1: that's open at the moment. There's a lot of research
Speaker 1: on ways it can reduce muscle spasticity, it can help
Speaker 1: people with you know, all sorts of neuromuscular problems, with
Speaker 1: digestive problems, but again a lot of individual reaction to it.
Speaker 1: We're seeing this plant being made available to people and
Speaker 1: it's it's I think it's about time it gets out
Speaker 1: of that restrictive drug schedule and made available for therapeutic use.
Speaker 1: I was just talking yesterday. Our center does a podcast
Speaker 1: and I was interviewing a nurse who who was a
Speaker 1: member of the American Cannabis Nurses Association. I didn't know
Speaker 1: there was such a thing, but there is a large
Speaker 1: group of nurses who have now become trained in using
Speaker 1: cannabis therapeutic way. They use all different forms and they
Speaker 1: based that on the individual patient. But I think they
Speaker 1: were in a much better position to do this than
Speaker 1: physicians because there's no cannabis preparation out there that most
Speaker 1: doctors are going to feel comfortable using, and until we
Speaker 1: have something like that, I don't think doctors are going
Speaker 1: to go near it. They don't understand it. But it's
Speaker 1: great that nurses are using a lot of them are
Speaker 1: using it for pain control. They're also using it in
Speaker 1: the hospice situations, especially with people with terminal cancer, and
Speaker 1: they say they find it very useful. So I think
Speaker 1: it's you know, I'm happy to see this becoming used.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot we don't know about it,
Speaker 1: and I find it very difficult when people ask my
Speaker 1: advice about it. I don't know what preparations to recommend
Speaker 1: to people. Uh, you know that it's confusing. What's your
Speaker 1: take on the more social use of it? Well, I was,
Speaker 1: you know, I was part of that culture in my
Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, and uh, you know, it was it was,
Speaker 1: it was. It was fun back then, you know, it
Speaker 1: was a fun social experience, you know. And then I
Speaker 1: also found that it was very stimulated my imagination. Creativity
Speaker 1: helped me write. But at some point that changed and
Speaker 1: the my reactions to it changed. I became more introspective
Speaker 1: withdrawn and then eventually it became an unproductive habit that
Speaker 1: just made me groggy and it was hard for me
Speaker 1: to separate myself from it. And what was that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you think that was? Because I think that's
Speaker 1: that's such an interesting arc of a journey with it.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people feel that way. That's
Speaker 1: kind of like an arc. I had a lot of
Speaker 1: friends who initially started for those reasons and then ended
Speaker 1: up paranoid, who ended up yeah, confused, or ended up
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe you know what, Maybe it has
Speaker 1: something to do with changes as we age, possible, But
Speaker 1: it was such a striking change in the effects for me. No,
Speaker 1: so something that I thought of as an ally that
Speaker 1: was helping me, really it ceased being that. Yeah, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that's that's really interesting to know, because yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends in the same bucket.
Speaker 1: I never really I never really dabbled with it deeply,
Speaker 1: but but in my brief experiences, it was very brief experiences.
Speaker 1: It was far more the creative or the spark. But
Speaker 1: I never got deep into it. But my friends who did,
Speaker 1: they went on the same argue. So that's interesting. And
Speaker 1: I don't know that I have not seen anyone right
Speaker 1: about that or talk about that, or investigate what the
Speaker 1: cause of that is. Yeah. Yeah, Also, you know, today,
Speaker 1: the preparations of cannabis that they're out there are much
Speaker 1: much stronger than those that were available when I was
Speaker 1: using it way back. I mean the ones that are
Speaker 1: available from a leisure perspective, Yeah, everywhere. Well, I'll tell
Speaker 1: you a story for a physician colleague of mine and
Speaker 1: San Francisco sent me three preparations of cannabis that had
Speaker 1: come from a medical dispensary and he wanted me to
Speaker 1: try them, and I was, you know, I'm a little
Speaker 1: leery about that since I'm having used it so long.
Speaker 1: One of them was a kind of oil that was
Speaker 1: in a tube, a little syringe, and it came with
Speaker 1: a very professionally printed brochure and it was recommending it
Speaker 1: for pain control especially, and it said to start with
Speaker 1: an amount the size of a grain of rice and
Speaker 1: work up from there. So I took a piece half
Speaker 1: the size of a grain of rice, and my friend
Speaker 1: that said take it at bedtime. It took it at bedtime,
Speaker 1: went to sleep, woke up about an hour later in
Speaker 1: full blown delirium, with hallucinations as vivid as those I've
Speaker 1: had from using LSD. I couldn't move, I had no equilibrium,
Speaker 1: had burning thirst, I couldn't reach for a glass of water,
Speaker 1: I couldn't call for help, and it kept coming on
Speaker 1: stronger and stronger, and I had no idea when this
Speaker 1: was going to end, and I had to use all
Speaker 1: the tricks that I've learned in meditation and breath control
Speaker 1: to keep myself centered. And when it finally subsided about
Speaker 1: hours later, my equilibrium was off for two days. I
Speaker 1: had very bit bounds and I was really angry. I mean,
Speaker 1: and this brochure said work up from there, And I'm
Speaker 1: thinking there are people out there, you know, taking this.
Speaker 1: I mean, that was like a very very powerful thing,
Speaker 1: and I thought, fairly dangerous. What brought you into this
Speaker 1: so early on? Because we're at a point in culture
Speaker 1: I feel where these things are now coming to the forefront.
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, I'm probably sure you're seeing cycles
Speaker 1: of that. You probably saw it come well if I was.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm just starting work on a book about psychedelics,
Speaker 1: and I'm a lot of it. I'm telling my own
Speaker 1: history because I knew everyone involved in all of that.
Speaker 1: But my interest goes back to about I think it
Speaker 1: was a specific day in nineteen sixty, right before I
Speaker 1: went to Harvard, and there was an article in the
Speaker 1: news paper in Philadelphia about the supposedly the death of
Speaker 1: a student at a California university who was taking mescalin
Speaker 1: for inspiration for a creative writing course, and that said
Speaker 1: mescalin was a vision inducing drug. I'd never heard of it,
Speaker 1: and they made the mistake of quoting from his last paper,
Speaker 1: and I just remember this phrase, galaxies of exploding colors.
Speaker 1: When I read that, I knew I wanted mescald so
Speaker 1: I inquired about. I came across Aldice Huxley's book The
Speaker 1: Doors of Perception, which had been written a few years before,
Speaker 1: and when I got to Harvard, I had the very
Speaker 1: good fortune to become associated with Richard Evans Schulties, who
Speaker 1: was the director of the Harvard Botanical Museum, and he
Speaker 1: had been one of the great explorers of the Amazon
Speaker 1: and discovered a lot of lucinogenic plants down there, so
Speaker 1: he really through him, I became very interested in psychedelic plants.
Speaker 1: At the same time, Richard Albert and Timothy Leary were
Speaker 1: just starting their work with sili. I've been at Harvard Um.
Speaker 1: There were you know, these drugs were not controlled substances.
Speaker 1: Then I was able to obtain mescalin from a chemistry
Speaker 1: chemical company. I took it a number of times, had
Speaker 1: interesting experience, but it was very disappointed. I didn't have vision.
Speaker 1: I didn't seek out. Very disappointed anyway. So that was
Speaker 1: before I had ever tried cannabis. But as a result
Speaker 1: of being in that place at that time, I really
Speaker 1: got to meet and come across all of the people
Speaker 1: who worked in that field, with Albert Hoffman, who was
Speaker 1: the discover of LSD, Gordon Wasson who rediscovered the mushroom
Speaker 1: cults in Mexico, U Sasha Shulgan who invented many of
Speaker 1: the designer drugs. So I had a long period of
Speaker 1: experimentation with psychedelics U and I you don't have had
Speaker 1: a lot of benefit from them. I don't. I really
Speaker 1: don't use them anymore. M my first book, The Natural Mind,
Speaker 1: which was about the importance of altered states of consciousness,
Speaker 1: but Alan Watts wrote a blurb for it and which
Speaker 1: he said, when you get the message, you hang up
Speaker 1: the telephone. And so I think I got I got
Speaker 1: what I had to learn from psychedelics, and I didn't
Speaker 1: feel the need to continue to use them. But I've
Speaker 1: learned a lot of things from them, and a lot
Speaker 1: of that has formed my philosophy of integrated medicine, especially
Speaker 1: the very subtle, complex interactions of mind and body. And
Speaker 1: I have seen very powerfully that you can change external
Speaker 1: reality by changing internal reality. Let's dive into side cedelics,
Speaker 1: because that was also what really intrigued me and drew
Speaker 1: me to your work. Because again, I feel like my generation,
Speaker 1: generations after me, they're starting to hear these terms in
Speaker 1: mainstream culture a lot more often. And you know, I
Speaker 1: feel like my role is to try and find the
Speaker 1: deepest experts in this space to help everyone have as
Speaker 1: much information they can have in order to make better
Speaker 1: decisions for themselves, their friends, their family, and anyone that's there.
Speaker 1: And so I'm going to ask questions that may seem
Speaker 1: really simple and basic, but by design because I want people. So,
Speaker 1: what are psychedelics for someone who keeps hearing that term
Speaker 1: from their friends and they keep nodding along pretending to
Speaker 1: know what that is? What does it mean? And what
Speaker 1: comes under that? You know the word, it's a coined word,
Speaker 1: which means mind manifesting. Previously people have called these psychotomymetic drugs,
Speaker 1: meaning they mimic psychosis, which is, you know, a very
Speaker 1: negative term. They are. Psychedelics are a large group of compounds,
Speaker 1: many of which are found in plants. There's one we
Speaker 1: know from an animal source. Many are synthetic or semisynthetic drugs.
Speaker 1: They fall into two chemical families with very distinctive molecular structures.
Speaker 1: Can mean is not a psychedelic, even though many people
Speaker 1: call it that. Cannabis is not a psychedelic, doesn't have
Speaker 1: any chemical resemblance to that. MDMA is part of that
Speaker 1: chemical family, related to esclin, but its effects are not
Speaker 1: typical of psychedelics. It has a unique effect that makes
Speaker 1: people emotionally open. I think it is a very useful substance.
Speaker 1: I guess I would call it a psychedelic, but it's
Speaker 1: not a classic psychedelic in terms of the perceptual changes
Speaker 1: that it causes. One fact about these this group of
Speaker 1: compounds is they are strikingly non toxic physically, much as
Speaker 1: with cannabis. You know, that's just not an issue physical toxicity.
Speaker 1: The main dangers are psychological, and those are almost entirely
Speaker 1: results of set and setting that is the expectation of
Speaker 1: the person taking them and the physical environment in which
Speaker 1: they're taken. So, you know, to put it in a
Speaker 1: very crude way, if you take a very high dose
Speaker 1: of LSD on a New York subway on a day
Speaker 1: when you're feeling anxious, you're likely to have a bad trip.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, if you take the right sort
Speaker 1: of dose in nature, when you are prepared for the
Speaker 1: experience and in the company of people who can guide
Speaker 1: you in the right direction, the chances are you can
Speaker 1: have a positive experience. The penetration of psychedelics into mainstream
Speaker 1: culture at the moment is quite astonishing. Before the pandemic,
Speaker 1: I was traveling a lot and speaking in various places,
Speaker 1: and no matter what subject I was talking about, whether
Speaker 1: it was nutrition, healthy, aging, integrative medicine. I would get
Speaker 1: questions about psychedelics. You now, where can we get them,
Speaker 1: how can we use them? How do you find somebody
Speaker 1: who can guide you? You know, a few months ago,
Speaker 1: Vogue magazine had a cover story on philocybin talent, and
Speaker 1: Country Magazine, of all places, had an article titled why
Speaker 1: is everybody smoking toad venom? I mean, is it is
Speaker 1: really going mainstream in a big way, And it is
Speaker 1: absolutely absurd to have these in Federal Schedule one, which
Speaker 1: is defined as drugs that are high potential for abuse
Speaker 1: and no therapeutic potential. The therapeutic potential of these drugs
Speaker 1: is enormous. Now, you know, there is currently a lot
Speaker 1: of research documenting benefits in mental emotional conditions, things like
Speaker 1: MDMA for PTSD and OCD psilocybin for drug resistant depression,
Speaker 1: for example, and treatment of addictions of various kind. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a long growing list of conditions for which clearly
Speaker 1: there are good results obtained. But beyond that, I think
Speaker 1: there is a tremendous potential of these two cause spiritual awakening.
Speaker 1: Some of that has been documented at the Johns Hopkins
Speaker 1: Center for Psychedelics, which is really good. I mean a
Speaker 1: single experience with psilocybin and people who had no sense
Speaker 1: of a spiritual dimension to life suddenly or aware of that.
Speaker 1: In my own experimentation with them, I have had very
Speaker 1: profound realizations that my consciousness extends to everything. You know,
Speaker 1: that everything out there is conscious, not just animate objects,
Speaker 1: but rocks and everything, and that that same whatever that is,
Speaker 1: it's in me, it's in everything. It connects me with everything.
Speaker 1: I think having that realization is one of the things
Speaker 1: that guided me in my philosophy of medicine and my
Speaker 1: methods of treating patients. I think it's also changed my
Speaker 1: attitude toward nature. And you know, I really the title
Speaker 1: of the book I'm working on as psychedelis can save
Speaker 1: the world. And I really believe that, and I think
Speaker 1: it may be the only thing out there that has
Speaker 1: that possibility, because you know, we are clearly headed for disaster,
Speaker 1: and I think the only thing that can save us
Speaker 1: is a collective transformation of consciousness. I think that can
Speaker 1: result from enough individuals having a transformation of conscious that
Speaker 1: it catalyzes some general movement. I mean, for instance, if
Speaker 1: you just look at the issue of the climate disaster
Speaker 1: that we're facing. I think if people realize that they
Speaker 1: are part of nature, that they're continuous with it, they
Speaker 1: change their behavior. That's just one example. And I saw
Speaker 1: some research recently showing that people who had had experience,
Speaker 1: I think it was psilocybin particularly, tend to become involved
Speaker 1: with the environmental movement. So that is the great hope
Speaker 1: that I have. So I'm you know, I think this
Speaker 1: could go a million different ways in terms of whether
Speaker 1: you know, for profit businesses get involved, whether people are
Speaker 1: going to be using these the party, But I think
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. I think just having these out there
Speaker 1: in the general culture and freed from that restrictive way
Speaker 1: that they've been placed, I think that holds great positive potential.
Speaker 1: You like the idea of these things becoming more mainstream
Speaker 1: and accessible and available because they have so many positive benefits.
Speaker 1: But there's a part of you to understands, or is
Speaker 1: accepting of the dangers that come in with self diagnosis
Speaker 1: and self use where it isn't being administered in a
Speaker 1: healthy dose or a healthy way. What are some of
Speaker 1: the because like the example you give of getting on
Speaker 1: the train, Like I look at that and I go,
Speaker 1: you know, as these things become more available. How do
Speaker 1: we stop people going off the edge because they don't
Speaker 1: know how to administer and monitor and actually, well, I
Speaker 1: would say by training as many people as we can
Speaker 1: to be guides who will behave in an ethical fashion
Speaker 1: and are experienced and can structure psychedelic experience and way
Speaker 1: to minimize any harmful potential and maximize positive potential. So
Speaker 1: there are a number of groups around the country that
Speaker 1: have training programs for psychedelic guides. We need a lot
Speaker 1: more of them, and you know, my hope is that
Speaker 1: we'll start to see that, Yeah, because I do I
Speaker 1: do worry that I love the benefits of so many
Speaker 1: incredible sources out there, I do worried that when people
Speaker 1: are untrained in anything that has that much power it
Speaker 1: can be it can be worrying too, because you know,
Speaker 1: you could have a whole world of people who could
Speaker 1: be saved and supported, but in the wrong way, could
Speaker 1: you know, could end up in a much worse place psychologically,
Speaker 1: as you said, because there isn't that responsibility around it.
Speaker 1: If that makes sense, would you agree with yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's my hope is that we're seeing, you know,
Speaker 1: some large numbers of responsibly trained people who can guide
Speaker 1: people in the right direction. Yeah, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: clarify that with you because it's it's kind of how
Speaker 1: I feel about technology, right, Like, if you look at technology,
Speaker 1: technology is like a drug in one sense, in the
Speaker 1: way the chemicals that are released when we use them.
Speaker 1: It's it could really be likened to a drug. Obviously,
Speaker 1: it's not been talked about that way. That's not the language.
Speaker 1: Where only seeing those experiences now, and we're seeing the
Speaker 1: challenges with technology addiction. We're seeing the challenges with technology
Speaker 1: obsession and the things that come from it, whether it's envy, comparison,
Speaker 1: fear of missing out, anxiety insecurity, and you think, oh,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Well, if we had technology coaches and
Speaker 1: if people were trained in how to use technology effectively
Speaker 1: before we were given a phone, chances are we'd be
Speaker 1: better at handling it and we wouldn't be doing this
Speaker 1: backwards job that we're in right now, which is like,
Speaker 1: oh gosh, my kids are all you know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think we have no idea what this is doing to
Speaker 1: the kids brains, you know. I think it's obviously is
Speaker 1: changing them, but I don't think we know the full
Speaker 1: ramifications of that. Yeah, So it's definitely a concern, and
Speaker 1: you're saying there's enough insight on the effects of psychedelics
Speaker 1: on the brain for us to kind of be able
Speaker 1: to see the right amount of doses. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: Let's dive into some of the more popular ones and
Speaker 1: how they use because again, we hear these names a lot,
Speaker 1: and I think people are unaware of, like, well, what
Speaker 1: is that used for? How is it administered? Who does
Speaker 1: it help? So you were mentioning the MDMA, could you
Speaker 1: tell us what is MDMA? Watch how is it used currently? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So MDMA is a synthetic psychedelic and it resembles the
Speaker 1: structure of MASCAL and that family of groups does not
Speaker 1: cause many visual changes, like you know a lot of
Speaker 1: the classic psychedelics. It is a stimulant, but it has
Speaker 1: a very reliable, uniform effect in most people, which is
Speaker 1: to produce a state of non defensiveness, calmness, positive emotional feeling,
Speaker 1: emotional openness. It's a name that's been proposed for it
Speaker 1: is an empathogen, something that creates empathy. I've used it
Speaker 1: a lot and actually was It was invented by my
Speaker 1: friend Sasha Shulgin and he sent me some and I
Speaker 1: think somewhere around nineteen seventy five and said what do
Speaker 1: you think of this? And I said, send more, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, and I've seen many many people use it
Speaker 1: with very very good results. I think it can be
Speaker 1: incredibly healing for relationships. I've seen some remarkable physical changes
Speaker 1: in people with disappearance of allergies and chronic pain. And
Speaker 1: there's quite a lot of research on its usefulness in
Speaker 1: dealing with PTSD. You know, sometimes one structured MDMA session
Speaker 1: can eliminate that after people have tried all sorts of psychotherapy,
Speaker 1: talk therapy that hasn't produced results. So I think it's
Speaker 1: very like that's going to be the first one that's
Speaker 1: going to be made therapeutically available and probably for the
Speaker 1: treatment of PTSD. Yeah, and that's PTSD obviously is such
Speaker 1: an extreme experience, and so it sounds like, how I guess,
Speaker 1: what are people experiencing when they do it? So it
Speaker 1: sounds like they're more vulnerable, they're they're more empathetic to themselves,
Speaker 1: I'd say it. I'd say it is a heart centered experience,
Speaker 1: you know, strong feelings of loving connection with others, calmness, relaxation,
Speaker 1: and a strikingly uniform effect from person to person, whereas
Speaker 1: the others, you know, a lot of the others a
Speaker 1: classic psychedelics, this tremendous variation and in response depending on
Speaker 1: set and setting. MDMA is pretty uniform. Yeah, and again
Speaker 1: you don't see this as something It sounds like this
Speaker 1: is not something you do for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: This is a medicinal almost of like there's a certain
Speaker 1: thing to treat and work through your working with the practicitioners.
Speaker 1: You may not have to use it that many times, right, right, right,
Speaker 1: But I think that that that's one that we really
Speaker 1: should have access to. In years, I lived as a
Speaker 1: monk for three years in India. I was in a
Speaker 1: monastery where we spent hours every day deep in meditation
Speaker 1: and reflection, in the study of spiritual texts and literatures,
Speaker 1: and had very strict diets. But we were trained in
Speaker 1: the development of a lot of these almost like the
Speaker 1: purification and the detoxing to get to compassion and empathetic states.
Speaker 1: And so when you were describing some of your experiences,
Speaker 1: I was like, I had that experience through meditation of
Speaker 1: that connectedness with nature and with the universe and with
Speaker 1: each individual soul, whether it be animate or inanimate. So
Speaker 1: I remember those through meditation, and so our journey was
Speaker 1: very slow, very step by step, a lot of pain
Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of obstacles to clear
Speaker 1: the way. I'm intrigued by how does someone feel after
Speaker 1: the doses run its course, Like are they able to
Speaker 1: stay compassionate and empathetic with their partner? What happens? I'm intrigued. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: the effect of the drug wears off, and it's because
Speaker 1: it's a stimulant. You feel. There's a period of time
Speaker 1: when you feel tired and somewhat depleted of energy, but
Speaker 1: the feelings you remain, and you can reconnect with those,
Speaker 1: and I think I see permanent change in people. By
Speaker 1: the way, in the early days, when people were talking
Speaker 1: about the spiritual potential of psychedelics, it really angered a
Speaker 1: lot of spiritual teachers, you know, who said that this
Speaker 1: was artificial, that these experiences, and I think they were
Speaker 1: kind of resentful of people having them without going through
Speaker 1: the time and work that, like you put in. So
Speaker 1: you know, I think there are many valid pains as
Speaker 1: to achieve those kinds of feelings, But psychedelics are fast
Speaker 1: and they offer the possibility of giving many more people
Speaker 1: access to them. Yeah, I've seen in my personal experience
Speaker 1: with the right people around me and with people I
Speaker 1: know that have experienced them, I've found them to be
Speaker 1: great window openers for people, or door openers. It's kind
Speaker 1: of what you describe like this idea that you've got
Speaker 1: to have a glimpse into a new reality that you
Speaker 1: didn't know existed. But I think I'm always intrigued by
Speaker 1: how people have that versus it becomes addictive, where you're
Speaker 1: just constantly wanting to live in that new reality. But
Speaker 1: I think psychedelics have a kind of self protective quality
Speaker 1: to them, which is if you try to take them frequently,
Speaker 1: the experience disappears, right, So I think people quickly there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of motivation to use them with any
Speaker 1: sort of great frequency. Yeah, and in terms of carryover effects,
Speaker 1: I've told this story a lot and you may have
Speaker 1: heard it, but just as an example, and this is
Speaker 1: on a physical level, I had a lifelong allergy to cats.
Speaker 1: If a cat got near me, my eyes would itch.
Speaker 1: If a cat licked me, I'd get hives where it
Speaker 1: licked me. So I always avoided them. And one day
Speaker 1: when I was twenty eight. It was doing in the
Speaker 1: country in Virginia. It was a beautiful spring day. I
Speaker 1: took LSD with a group of friends outdoors. It was
Speaker 1: just I felt wonderful. I mean I really felt just
Speaker 1: high connected with nature, trific And in the midst of this,
Speaker 1: a cat jumped into my lap and I had an
Speaker 1: immediate defensive reaction, and then I thought, you know, this
Speaker 1: is silly, and I just relaxed and played with the cat.
Speaker 1: I had no allergic reaction, and I've never had one since.
Speaker 1: No instantaneous disappearance of a lifelong allergic pattern. Is that
Speaker 1: a common path with that particular with LSD or No? No,
Speaker 1: I think it's not not peculiar to LSD. I think
Speaker 1: it can happen with any psychedelic It doesn't happen automatically necessarily. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I could imagine no doctor Wile's allergy clinic if
Speaker 1: these become a yeah, you know, where you give people
Speaker 1: start with a full dose and expose them to the
Speaker 1: allergy and then like once a week you'd reduce the
Speaker 1: dose till at some point they were getting just a placebo. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think you can. Allergies can be unlearned and that's
Speaker 1: a powerful tool for doing it. Yeah, what are the
Speaker 1: other ones that you think going to become more exist
Speaker 1: This is the main compound found in the magic mushrooms,
Speaker 1: which traditionally were used by indigenous peoples in southern Mexico
Speaker 1: and Central America. There are many species of them, Some
Speaker 1: can easily be cultivated, some grow wild, especially in the
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. It's a very well known compound now and
Speaker 1: it is being intensively studied and used, and especially for
Speaker 1: mental health conditions, for drug resistant depression, for obsessive compulsive disorder,
Speaker 1: for addictive disorders. It looks quite safe, you know, it
Speaker 1: is what's quite safe? Well again, no physical issues with
Speaker 1: it at all, no cognitive, no nothing. And in fact,
Speaker 1: you know, there've been studies of people who've used these
Speaker 1: compounds quite frequently over a long lifetime, and there's been
Speaker 1: studies of their brains and they look perfectly healthy. So
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any issues there. So this is
Speaker 1: one that I think also is going to be made
Speaker 1: therapeutically available fairly sif for mental health conditions first, but
Speaker 1: I think again one that has a lot of potential
Speaker 1: uses in medicine as well, so that you know, the
Speaker 1: main difference between psilocybin and LSD is duration of action.
Speaker 1: U LSD last ten to twelve hours, which can be inconvenient,
Speaker 1: and psilocybin is four to six hours, so it's much more,
Speaker 1: much more manageable. And some people are using a recreationally too,
Speaker 1: and yes, how do they are? Yeah, well, again, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be critical of people who I think either,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to Yeah, I think I'd rather have
Speaker 1: people used that than alcohol recreationally because yeah, that's because
Speaker 1: it's much safer on a physical level, and I'd probably
Speaker 1: be safer on a psychological level as well. When you
Speaker 1: look at the numbers of homicides accidental deaths that are
Speaker 1: related to alcohol, it's tremendous and you don't see anything
Speaker 1: like that with psilocymon. Can you drive after Well you can.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend it, probably, but if somebody's familiar with it,
Speaker 1: you certainly you can. I mean, it doesn't impair coordination
Speaker 1: on a physical level like alcohol. Yeah, yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: And I don't have any side or any what's the
Speaker 1: right word, any any dug in the fire, right I hear? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm asking from I'm just being so curious as delay.
Speaker 1: I know my community would ask these questions, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: all right, like I want, I want them to have
Speaker 1: such a real, genuine understanding of what this is. Because
Speaker 1: so let me talk about another compound is of great
Speaker 1: interest is DMT. Yes, of course, dimetyl trip to mean.
Speaker 1: So this is a it's a very simple chemical compound,
Speaker 1: and it's related to serotonin, the neurotransmitter, and melatonin, the
Speaker 1: pineal hormone. It's found in many plants, especially in South America,
Speaker 1: and is used by Indigenous people, mostly as snuffs. They
Speaker 1: prepare powdered preparations from plants and inhale it. And often
Speaker 1: this occurs with another compound called five mathoxy DMT, which
Speaker 1: is the one that's found in the toad that has
Speaker 1: become pop foad venom. At any rate, DMT is if
Speaker 1: you smoke, it's it's a very rapid effect. You know,
Speaker 1: within seconds you are often another reality, and it's extremely visual,
Speaker 1: you know, incredible visual trips, and then you after several minutes,
Speaker 1: you come back to ordinary reality. The five mathoxy virgion
Speaker 1: is not visual. People describe it as a rocketship into
Speaker 1: the void. Your ego dissolves, and when it reconstitutes, it's
Speaker 1: very pleasant. It is very likely that DMT is our
Speaker 1: endogenous psychedelic that is made by the pineal gland, and
Speaker 1: it may explain why some people have psychedelic like experiences,
Speaker 1: whether it's from meditation or fasting or other things, it
Speaker 1: may be from release of endogenous DMT. And some people
Speaker 1: think this may also mediate the near death experience. You
Speaker 1: know that so many people report. So I do believe
Speaker 1: we have an endogenous psychedelic and it's very likely to
Speaker 1: be you know, DMT. Wow. Yeah, and we're talking much earlier.
Speaker 1: And I love hearing about your travels. Have you have
Speaker 1: you been to the Amazon Yes? Yeah, you know, Shulty
Speaker 1: sent me down there long ago. I made a number
Speaker 1: of trips. I was investigating medicinal plants, ayahuasca, mushrooms, and
Speaker 1: we spent time with shamans to learn what tricks I
Speaker 1: could learn from them. So yes, So that was that
Speaker 1: was in the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties. I made a
Speaker 1: number of trips down there. Wow. And and why do
Speaker 1: the Amazonians have no problems we're taking drugs like DMT. Well,
Speaker 1: this is an interesting thing, you know, there there are
Speaker 1: so many psychedelic plants and preparations in South America and
Speaker 1: in Mexico and Central America, and there are so few
Speaker 1: in the Old World. You know, there's one plant in
Speaker 1: Africa called Eboga, the source of a drug called ibigang,
Speaker 1: which is yeah for addictive behavior. This what's right. There's
Speaker 1: a possibility of one from from India. You know, there's
Speaker 1: been great speculation as to what this preparation soma was
Speaker 1: that's referred to in the vadas, so there's possibly there
Speaker 1: was some psychedelic preparation there. And the Eleusinian mysteries in
Speaker 1: ancient Greece involved drinking a potion that almost certainly was
Speaker 1: made from urgat and there was a way of detoxifying
Speaker 1: that fungus and producing an LSD like drink. But otherwise,
Speaker 1: you know, you've got this huge abundance of psychedelic preparations
Speaker 1: in the New World. You know, it doesn't make botanical
Speaker 1: sense that there'd be that disparity, so it must be
Speaker 1: something about the people. You know, in the Old World.
Speaker 1: In African Asia, people I think are as drawn to
Speaker 1: altered states of consciousness, but they get into them, especially
Speaker 1: in Africa, through drumming prolonged wakefulness dancing rather than taking substances. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so is that the difference that you see in how
Speaker 1: we take them and how how they take them? And yeah, right,
Speaker 1: but if you look at the indigenous peoples in South
Speaker 1: America and the Amazon especially, these they are always used ritually. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're often you know, under the direction of shamans who
Speaker 1: were training trained in their use. Yeah. Absolutely, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think they're the potential for abuse in those populations
Speaker 1: is very minuscule. Right, Yeah, that's really fascinating. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, it was always sacred, it was part
Speaker 1: of a holy ritual of some kind. It was always
Speaker 1: used medicinally and understood and it's kind of yeah, it's
Speaker 1: ritual is a very powerful tool for containing the harmful
Speaker 1: potential of substances. Yeah, that's why they were created around
Speaker 1: those I guess. Yeah. No, that's and that's always really
Speaker 1: interesting for me to hear because I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a and I'm just reflecting on it
Speaker 1: as an individual. I look at it and I think
Speaker 1: I really trust things that can are very focused on
Speaker 1: the intention in which they're taken, administered by someone who
Speaker 1: understands what the power and effective this is, and it's
Speaker 1: in an environment that allows you to have a fulfilling,
Speaker 1: powerful experience with a certain goal or place to reach to.
Speaker 1: That all of those things to me feel very coherent
Speaker 1: with how I would do anything, whether it's getting an
Speaker 1: operation or you know, like I got an operation last
Speaker 1: year and I wish I did more research on the doctor.
Speaker 1: You know, I felt the same way about that. I
Speaker 1: was like, you know, we blindly trust the doctor. You
Speaker 1: got placed with it, and someone told you that they
Speaker 1: were great, and I wasn't happy with the doctor I
Speaker 1: had at all, And so you know, it's it applies
Speaker 1: to all parts of our life. I think this idea
Speaker 1: of like am I intentional with the doctor? I chose
Speaker 1: the hospital? I chose that? I am I being thought
Speaker 1: for about these things? And in the same way. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's different. I think it almost has to
Speaker 1: be thought about in the same way. In fact, you know,
Speaker 1: even with alcohol, there's some very interesting lessons from history.
Speaker 1: When alcohol became available and it was a sudden invention
Speaker 1: of the Dutch, you know, so it was in the
Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds. In the wake of that, there was an
Speaker 1: epidemic of drunkenness, alcoholism, unlike anything that we've ever seen,
Speaker 1: and even in this country, in America in the early
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds something in eighteen hundreds, every store had a
Speaker 1: barrel of whiskey and people went in, you just have
Speaker 1: a ladle a whiskey, and people started drinking early in
Speaker 1: the morning. All day long, drunks were lying in the street.
Speaker 1: You know. It was it was an uncontrollable epidemic of alcoholism.
Speaker 1: And gradually, you know, over several decades, there was a
Speaker 1: social consensus that grew up that it was unseemly to
Speaker 1: be drunk, and that rituals grew up around the use
Speaker 1: of distilled alcohol, one of which is the tale party,
Speaker 1: you know, which is not going to happen at ten
Speaker 1: in the morning. You know, we're going to do this
Speaker 1: late in the day. There'll be food present and friends
Speaker 1: presents for social as a social lubricant, and that kind
Speaker 1: of conscious use and ritual helped contain the negative possibilities
Speaker 1: that could result from such a strong drug, right right,
Speaker 1: And of course, I mean with alcohol, there's so many
Speaker 1: proven negatives, right, and issues yea, even now, whether it's
Speaker 1: got brain, etcetera, etcetera. Could you talk about some of
Speaker 1: those just that well, alcohol, you know, it is extremely
Speaker 1: toxic to the nerve, to the brain, into the liver,
Speaker 1: and there's a there's arguments go back and yeah, that's all.
Speaker 1: Whether it are alcohol or moderate consumption, alcohol is beneficial.
Speaker 1: You know, some people say no, even one or two
Speaker 1: drinks is harmful for some, So this goes back and forth.
Speaker 1: I think many of the benefits ascribed to alcohol or
Speaker 1: benefits of relaxation, and for many people that is a
Speaker 1: main method of relaxation. But I think the fact act
Speaker 1: is that you know, it is a strong talk and
Speaker 1: then you have to be very careful about using it.
Speaker 1: And there's some people like women that have genetic risk
Speaker 1: for breast cancer, probably shouldn't use it at all. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was this fascinated me when I was looking at
Speaker 1: your work. Your book Chocolate to Morphine is pivotal and
Speaker 1: often the most stolen books in colleges in the last
Speaker 1: forty years. You tell us a bit about the book,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's and then about this it's a very
Speaker 1: good book. It's it's still in print. And the main
Speaker 1: point of it, which enraged some people, was that there
Speaker 1: are no good and bad drugs. There are just good
Speaker 1: and bad relationships with drugs, and I very firmly believe that.
Speaker 1: And I mean there's no there are no drugs that
Speaker 1: have inherent good or horrible qualities. It's how people use
Speaker 1: them and how they think of them. Yeah, some obviously
Speaker 1: are more difficult to form good relationships with them all,
Speaker 1: and some of them, naturally, like chocolate, as as a
Speaker 1: victim of chocolate, have addictive you know, it's it's I was.
Speaker 1: I've talked about this any many times, but I was
Speaker 1: genuinely addicted to chocolate. And it took my wife and
Speaker 1: me like you know when I say addicted in the
Speaker 1: sense of like I could eat like a full slab
Speaker 1: in a moment, like a family pack version, like easily
Speaker 1: on my own, no issues, I see. And it took
Speaker 1: a long time for me to take chocolate out of
Speaker 1: my diet because a sugar I was taking into it
Speaker 1: so well. I put chocolate at the very top of
Speaker 1: my anti inflammatory diet pyramid. How because it's taking it out,
Speaker 1: No I put it back. It's there. It's the very
Speaker 1: top of the anti inflammatory diet pyramid. So it's something
Speaker 1: that I recommend in moderate moderate consumption. It has very
Speaker 1: useful antioxidant I might have to change my relationship with
Speaker 1: dark chocolate, yeah at least. Yeah. Yeah, but a little
Speaker 1: bit on a regular basis is fine. Yeah, what's a
Speaker 1: little bit on a regular basis not a slab? It's
Speaker 1: not a slab. You have this real love for this
Speaker 1: plant medicine that can have such a big benefit people,
Speaker 1: and it must be hard because so much of it's
Speaker 1: been demonized or or talked about in a certain way.
Speaker 1: And I love what you just said. Now, It's like
Speaker 1: you're arguing that it's about your relationship with absolutely and
Speaker 1: that's really fascinates me because I feel like that it's
Speaker 1: almost like that's how we would talk about It's our
Speaker 1: relationship with technology, it's our relationship with money, fame. There
Speaker 1: is nothing inherently evil about technology, you know. I think
Speaker 1: that's true of so many things. It's it's how we
Speaker 1: relate to it. Yes, as we use in our relationship
Speaker 1: is with it. Yeah, that's that's really fascinating. I also
Speaker 1: wanted to dive into the idea where you mentioned earlier
Speaker 1: around the spiritual awakening piece, because I definitely am not
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I would say, even though I studied in
Speaker 1: such a traditional and rigorous way personally, which has led
Speaker 1: to so many beautiful spiritual awakenings and realizations. I'm very
Speaker 1: not I wouldn't consider myself to be closed minded as
Speaker 1: to how other people find their parts. I find that
Speaker 1: I have my path and it is beautiful. But I'm
Speaker 1: very open to people finding their parts, and some people
Speaker 1: are at different stages in their journey where they need
Speaker 1: different things. Could you walk me through what specifically been
Speaker 1: used in a spiritual way and what have been some
Speaker 1: of the results. Well, first of all, let me say
Speaker 1: for me, spirituality means being aware of and acknowledging the
Speaker 1: non material aspect of existence. Yes, working in the medical field,
Speaker 1: I am so aware of and frustrated by the power
Speaker 1: of the materialistic paradigm. You know that many scientists and
Speaker 1: many physicians don't believe in anything that's not physical. So
Speaker 1: when you try to talk about not let alone, not spirit,
Speaker 1: but even if you try to talk about the mind
Speaker 1: and the influence of the mind on the body, they
Speaker 1: don't believe that. I mean, in the materialistic paradigm, if
Speaker 1: you observe a change in a physical system, the cause
Speaker 1: has to be physical. Non physical causation of physical events
Speaker 1: is not allowed for in that paradigm. So this is
Speaker 1: what you know, there's a whole range of mind body
Speaker 1: interventions that we make use of, an integrative medicine, hypnosis,
Speaker 1: guided imagery, visualization, therapy. But and these methods are very
Speaker 1: cost effective, very effective, and they're totally underutilized because people
Speaker 1: don't believe in it, and that's why we haven't really
Speaker 1: made sense of the placebo response all of that. So
Speaker 1: I would love to see that change, you know, I'd
Speaker 1: really love to see a paradigm shift. And to me,
Speaker 1: that's what spiritual awakening is about. You know, it's becoming
Speaker 1: aware of the non physical dimension and the reality of
Speaker 1: the non physical. And I make a very sharp distinction
Speaker 1: between spirituality and religion. You know, religion is about institutions,
Speaker 1: and institutions are mostly concerned with perpetuating themselves. You know.
Speaker 1: Spirituality is this connection with acknowledging the non physical and
Speaker 1: its importance in interacting with the physical dimension. I think
Speaker 1: there's lots of ways you can awaken to that. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, for me and for many people, I've seen
Speaker 1: psychedelic experience become a very powerful way of doing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and how does how have you and others sustained that,
Speaker 1: like you were saying yourself, like you you don't take
Speaker 1: them anymore, but it's become a way of life for you.
Speaker 1: It feels like that. Yeah, well, I meditate, I do
Speaker 1: breath work, and you know, I've always been fascinated by
Speaker 1: the fact that the words breath and the words spirit
Speaker 1: are the same and most end of European languages, and
Speaker 1: that I think when we when we focus our attention
Speaker 1: on our breath, we're looking at the movement of spirit
Speaker 1: in the body. So that's you know, I think that
Speaker 1: is one very practical, powerful way, and most people ignore it.
Speaker 1: We have that right under our noses, and we don't
Speaker 1: make use of it. I mean, you know, for you
Speaker 1: to have been at Harvard, to have done this research,
Speaker 1: to have been in this space for so long, it
Speaker 1: is beautiful to hear you bring science and spirituality too together, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I feel for so long they've been seen as opposite, opposite. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I've never understood that as as considering myself a
Speaker 1: spiritual scientist or you know, it's in that sense of
Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by neuroscience, have always been fascinated
Speaker 1: by the brain, and at the same time, I consider
Speaker 1: myself a spiritualist, and so hearing you as like a
Speaker 1: doctor doing all of this medical work, but then finding
Speaker 1: the spiritual part and the functional part of same parts
Speaker 1: of medicine. Did you always have that when you were studying,
Speaker 1: because obviously you went off to become a doctor, Like
Speaker 1: when did I think? I think I did always have
Speaker 1: some of that. I don't know. I think I was
Speaker 1: born with it. You know. I can remember always being
Speaker 1: fascinated by the mind and how it related to the body,
Speaker 1: and from as far back as I can remember. And
Speaker 1: I tried to study that at Harvard, and I was
Speaker 1: very frustrated that I couldn't, you know, I started off
Speaker 1: majoring in psychology, but at that time, psychology at Harvard
Speaker 1: was completely dominated by the behaviorists. It was running rats
Speaker 1: through mazes, and they weren't interested in consciousness. I wanted
Speaker 1: to know about consciousness, wow, and nobody was interested in
Speaker 1: doing that. And then also in the scientific and medical world,
Speaker 1: consciousness is seen as a product of brain chemistry or
Speaker 1: electrical connections in the brain. And you know, I came
Speaker 1: to feel that consciousness is primary. I think consciousness organizes matter,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it organizes matter into more and
Speaker 1: more complex forms, you know, including the human brain. But
Speaker 1: that you know that enraged scientists when I try to
Speaker 1: talk that one. Do you think we'll ever be able
Speaker 1: to prove the existence of consciousness well in a way
Speaker 1: that in a language, in a way that I think
Speaker 1: this is what I see as part of the psychedelic awakening,
Speaker 1: because I think that that this really has the potential
Speaker 1: to chip away at that materialistic paradigm and the influence
Speaker 1: it now has on our way of thinking. There is
Speaker 1: you know, a name for, uh, this idea that consciousness
Speaker 1: is primary. It's called panpsychism. And that used to be
Speaker 1: you know, no scientist would you know look at that,
Speaker 1: And now that's become a respectable movement in philosophy, you know,
Speaker 1: idea that everything is consciousness down to atoms. And and
Speaker 1: I look forward to seeing that grow and have greater
Speaker 1: and greater influence. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I've I've always
Speaker 1: considered consciousness to be like the first self. Absolutely and
Speaker 1: and you know, obviously from a spiritual perspective, but even
Speaker 1: the excellent explanation behind so many near death experiences or
Speaker 1: outer body experiences or of the sort. And when I
Speaker 1: have read scientific studies or even research or accounts of
Speaker 1: those experiences. There's a there's a truth that's not been uncovered. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and as I said, this may be mediated by release
Speaker 1: of our own endargeness psychedelic, which could very well be
Speaker 1: DMT right right, amazing, What a fascinating, what a fascinating direction.
Speaker 1: I'm excited for your book and I'm excited for the
Speaker 1: work Andrew, is there anything that we haven't touched on
Speaker 1: that that was a pretty wide ranging conversation. There's lots
Speaker 1: more I could talk about, but yeah, well, I'm hoping
Speaker 1: this can be the first to many. That would be great.
Speaker 1: I think this is a great conversation for people to
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure everyone already knows about your work,
Speaker 1: but for new people to get introduced to your work,
Speaker 1: for people to really get a sense of who you
Speaker 1: are and you know, your your journey and parts of
Speaker 1: your story and your expertise. And I'm hoping that we'll
Speaker 1: continue to go deep when the books come out, because
Speaker 1: this is this has honestly been one of those um
Speaker 1: it's been exactly what I wanted. I needed the dummies
Speaker 1: guide and that's really helpful because I think so often
Speaker 1: that steps like missed and then the majority of the
Speaker 1: world just doesn't know what's going on, and so I
Speaker 1: try my best to stay grounded and rooted with my
Speaker 1: ear to the ground and be like, well, people are
Speaker 1: hearing these ideas, but they don't know what to do
Speaker 1: and where it is. Well, you're doing a very good service. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, You're very kind, and I hope that everyone
Speaker 1: goes to match dot com use the codeju The books
Speaker 1: that we were referring to in this episode of The
Speaker 1: Natural Mind, which is right here. And then this other
Speaker 1: book I have from doctor Andrew Wile is Spontaneous Happiness.
Speaker 1: But there is a new book on the way as well.
Speaker 1: So these are two great starters, and look out for
Speaker 1: Andrew's new book, which I'm sure I'll be back on
Speaker 1: the show to talk about when it comes together. So, Andrew,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time and energy. Thank
Speaker 1: you for being here. It's actually just wonderful being in
Speaker 1: your presence too. And I love how much you know
Speaker 1: life you've lived, and it sounds like you have so
Speaker 1: many more incredible experiences and stories to share that I
Speaker 1: look forward to learning that. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being here. Thank you for sharing your journey, your work,
Speaker 1: Thank you for giving us so much of a great
Speaker 1: education today. You're very welcome, amazing everyone's been listening and
Speaker 1: watching back at home. Make sure you tag doctor Andrew
Speaker 1: Wile and I on Instagram, on Twitter, on TikTok, whatever
Speaker 1: platform you use, and let us know what you learn
Speaker 1: from this episode. I hope this gave you an insight
Speaker 1: into a world that you're probably hearing about but may
Speaker 1: not have too much information on. Maybe you're an expert,
Speaker 1: maybe you knew all of this, but hopefully this will
Speaker 1: help you introduce it to a friend who may not
Speaker 1: be as aware as well. Again, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. Makes you go and follow Andrew across social
Speaker 1: media if you're a fan, go and order some of
Speaker 1: the books as well. And thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us on on purpose. I'll see you on the
Speaker 1: next one. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my
Speaker 1: interview with doctor Daniel Aiman on how to change your
Speaker 1: life by changing your brain.