1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: when was the last time you saw a live rat? Ha? Ha? 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: I saw a huge rat at the zoo once, Yeah, 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: in in an exhibit. No, just running across the path. 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: And that's not surprising, right, because the zoo has lots 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: and lots of food at any animals dispose. Also, I'm 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: sure that rats hang out there quite a bit. Okay, 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: a little similarly, I last time I saw a live 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: rat outside of the confines of a pet store was 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: when I was taking the public transportation around here, Martha. 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: The drain that is at times kind of a subway, 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: and indeed I get to see a nice fat subway 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: rat running around under the tracks, which for me is 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: always kind of a treat because it, you know, it 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: brings to mind more you know, opic ideals of the underworld. Um. 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: And at the same time it's also I can't help 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: but I think it's a little gross because obviously the 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: rat is there because there's plenty of garbage. Dat well, 21 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: there's something very outlaw and charming about these rats to 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: dwelling in a subterranean world, right, and we tend to 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: think of them more in really negative terms, thinking about 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: them as vectors of disease. But as we're going to 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: explore today, rats are one of the most successful species, 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: and rats they're just like us that we have a 27 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: lot in common with them. Indeed, now we don't want 28 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: to completely discredit the whole disease vector thing because according 29 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 1: to the CDC there that they're These are just some 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: of the key diseases transmitted by rodents. There's a hantavirus, 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: pulmonary syndrome, hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome, a loss of fever, 32 00:01:53,680 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: a leptospirosis, lymphocitic chronomeningitis, o hemorrhage, fee ever, plague, rat 33 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: bite fever, someone elis, someon elysis, and several South American 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: arena viruses. Well, you know this is how I feel 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: about being a rat. You probably want to have a 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: heavy reputation like that, right because you're out there on 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: the streets, the mean streets. You want to mean persona like, hey, 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: I might accidentally give you some sort of plague or 39 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: or not so accidentally so don't mess with me. And 40 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: when you start to think about rats in this way, 41 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: their survival instincts, you can really look at them as 42 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: more of it's just this sort of pestilence underground, but 43 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: more as the uh the largest collective holders of real 44 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: estate in major metropolitan areas, specifically Manhattan, because we should 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: really consider this rich life of the rat there, which 46 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: arrives sometimes in the eighteen hundreds. We're talking about Rattus norvegicus, 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: and it has made itself so ubiquitous that just it's 48 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: very presence is sort of one of those defining features 49 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: of New York City when you think about New York, right, 50 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: and they have successfully lived off the detritus of humans. 51 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: And you can follow droppings nearly anywhere if you want 52 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: to write, and you'll find a path between walls, nod 53 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: between bricks, and then just knowing that there's this whole 54 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: other species, is life thriving beneath our feet or between 55 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: our walls, and sometimes even coming up through our toilet bowl. 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: I think about that in the middle of the night sometimes, 57 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: and I have to admit, when I am in New York, 58 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: if I don't see a rat, I feel a little 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: let down like it's it's it should's part of the experience, 60 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: you know. So if there's not one appearing naturally, I 61 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: kind of want to hire somebody to just let a 62 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: rat trained one run across the street in front of me. UM. Now, 63 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: when you get into the exact numbers of rats in Manhattan, 64 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: I bring this up because it was recently in the news. UM. 65 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: Past estimates of range from an extreme infestation of twenty 66 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: eight million rats to uh the other more conservative estimates 67 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: of eight point four million UM. But recently there's a 68 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,679 Speaker 1: study that came out from Jonathan Arbach, a PhD candidate 69 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: at Columbia University, and he's crunched the numbers and he 70 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: thinks that it's less than that, probably more like two million. 71 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: But basically, any way you shake it, we're talking about 72 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: a lot of rats living in this great metropolis. Yeah, 73 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: that's a decent sized population. And it's really easy to 74 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: start actually going the rout a two year oute to 75 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: and projecting, um, your human qualities are our human qualities 76 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: onto them. UM. But as we will explore later on, 77 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: there really are a lot of parallels between routes and humans. UM. 78 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: But one of the things that's often overlooked is that 79 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: there's quite a bit of contribution from rats, albeit not voluntarily. 80 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: That's right. We're getting on the ratitui area and getting 81 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: into more of the secretive nim area here, right. Um. 82 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: As it turns out, of all lab animals are mice 83 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: and rats according to the Foundation for Biomedical Research, and 84 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: that is that is quite a lot. Because you think 85 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: of lab animals, right um. You know, you also tend 86 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: to throw in chimps and you think of experiments on 87 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: rabbits or what have you, but or even some things 88 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: like ecoli and some of the jazzery experiments that we've 89 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: discussed here in the past. But when you come back 90 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: down to it, it's the rodents that are carrying most 91 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: of the load. And why is this, Well, a lot 92 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: of it has to do with convenience, right. Rats are 93 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: small in size, they're easily housed, you can easily maintain 94 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: them in captivity, and they're fairly adaptive to new surroundings. 95 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there are plenty of species out there 96 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: that that you cannot keep in captivity. They just do 97 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: not survive. They just completely fail if you try to 98 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: house them. The rat, however, one of its skills as adaptations. Hey, 99 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: it adapts well to this captive lifestyle. Also, rats reproduce 100 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: like crazy, and they don't live more than two or 101 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: three years. So if you have a study and you 102 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: need to look at several generations all the creature to see, uh, 103 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: see how your studies panning out, you can do that 104 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: in a short period of human time. You know. Now, 105 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: they're they're no ecoli. Heck, the E. Coli long term 106 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: evolution experiment that we've discussed here before has seen more 107 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: than fifty thou generations passed in just twenty five years. 108 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: But rats and mice boast other key advantages. They're also 109 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: cheap to acquire. You can buy lab mice and rats 110 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: in bulk from commercial suppliers, so there's no hanging around 111 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 1: around looking like a creepy person at the local pet store, 112 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: you know, with your burlap sack. And then when it 113 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: comes to actually handling them, uh, this is a pretty 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: uh mild tempered creature. You can reach into the cage, 115 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: you can get them out, you can you can handle them. 116 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: You don't need a you know, an electric prod to 117 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: deal with the lab rat. Right, They're highly portable and 118 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: their genetic biological and behavior characteristics closely resemble those of humans, 119 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: making them really ideal to study. So, as you mentioned, 120 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: because they reproduce so quickly, you can tinker around with genetics, 121 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: and within just a couple of generations you can you 122 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: can begin to take some sort of hypothesis and then 123 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: put it into study by tinkering with the genetics and 124 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: seeing what the outcome is, which of course informs what 125 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: we're trying to do medically with humans. And when I 126 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: say informing, I mean really the contributions to a ton 127 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: of diseases and conditions that we have been studying through wraps. 128 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: And what exactly have they helped with? Well, according to 129 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: Life Sciences article wy do medical researchers use mice, they've 130 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: assisted with the following uh standing in as human models, hypertension, diabetes, cataracts, obesity, seizures, 131 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: respiratory problems, deafness, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's disease, cancer, cystic fibrosis, 132 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: HIV and AIDS, heart disease, muscular drift dystrophy, and spinal 133 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: cord injuries. And in addition to all that, we regularly 134 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: turned to mice for varying studies that concern behavioral sensory, aging, nutrition, 135 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: and genetic studies, as well as the treatment of drug addictions. Yeah, 136 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: so that's quite a resume that that rats and mice have. 137 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: Now consider that rats were first used in the lab 138 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: at the turn of the century by researchers believe in 139 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: Chicago and at Clark University. So at first it was 140 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: just the humble rodent maze that they would run through 141 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: to try to give us some ideas about the more 142 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: behavioral aspects of rats. Now fast forward to today and 143 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: they're actually occupying a far loftier space and studies. And 144 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: one of the loftiest uh that I could think of 145 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: is something called the Human Brain Project. And and this 146 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: is something that neuroscientist Henry Markham has been toiling away 147 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: at for years and we've talked about it before, to 148 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: this idea that you could reverse engineer of the human brain. 149 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: And this is a very ambitious project to complete a 150 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: or to build a complete model of a human brain. 151 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: And we're talking from snapsis to hemispheres and then simulate 152 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: it on a supercomputer. That is incredibly complex and ambitious. 153 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: So what do you do, Well, you have to start 154 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: with the basics and the basics in this case is 155 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: the neo cortex of a rat, and Markham has simulated 156 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: the behavior of a millionaire on portion of this rat 157 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: neo cortex and this has given Markham a lot of 158 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: new insight into everything from the expression of individual rat 159 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: genes to the organizing principles of rat brains. And the 160 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: team Market Seeing has published some of that data impair 161 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: reviewed journals. But they're also beginning to integrate it into 162 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: this cohesive model so that they can simulate it onto 163 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: an IBM blue gene supercomputer, which will all then um 164 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: lead to this human brain project. Now, if this human 165 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: brain project is successful, we're talking about building a plug 166 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: and play brain. Um, you could take it apart to 167 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: figure out what the causes of brain disease are. You 168 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: could rig it to robotics and develop a whole new 169 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: range of intelligent technologies. You could strap on a pair 170 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: of virtual reality classes and experience a brain other than 171 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: your own. Now, the big question here, a lot of 172 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: naysayers say, can you can this model scale, can you 173 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: go from a rat brain to a human brain? And 174 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: can this be done to that sort of complex um 175 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: level of detail. We don't know yet, But if it's successful. 176 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: The reason it is is because it began with rats. 177 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: All right, Well, on that note, we're going to take 178 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: a break, and when we come back, canna get into 179 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: how rats are essentially just like us. All Right, we're back. Um. 180 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: You know, we've been discussing the way we use rats 181 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: in experiments in the past, how they're going to factor 182 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: into our further explorations of the human mind and the 183 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: human body in the future. And in doing this, it's 184 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: it's already pretty obvious that you can't just look at 185 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: this rat as a as a mere furry earthworm that 186 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: we can just you just inject things into and see 187 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: how it plays out in sort of a generic organism. 188 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot of there seems to be a lot 189 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: more of a linkage between what it is to be 190 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: a rat and what it is to be a human. 191 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: That's right, And so that introduces us to these human 192 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: like things that we like to define ourselves by. I'm 193 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: talking about this idea that we could exhibit regret, or empathy, 194 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: or even meta cognition, this idea that we could think 195 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: about thinking that seems like something that only primates can do, right, 196 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: But in fact, there are studies that will point you 197 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: into the direction of rats being able to exhibit this 198 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: as well. Indeed, for instance, rats being able to feel regret. 199 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: This one is really fascinating. This one is from a 200 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: study that came out in two thousand fourteen published in 201 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: the journal Nature Neuroscience from It's a University of Minnesota 202 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: study from Adam P. Steiner and A. David reddish Um. 203 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: The key findings here are that rats who made a 204 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: bad choice registered regret in the same part of the 205 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: brain that humans are believed to show regret, the orbitofrontal cortex. 206 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: And they also seem to look back on past regrets 207 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: in the same way that humans do um. In other words, 208 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: the rat is thinking about what it should have done now. 209 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: The study itself has a lot to to to line 210 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: up with human dyning UH do. Like, have you ever 211 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: found yourself in a situation where there's a restaurant you 212 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: really want to dine at, You go air it's too crowded. 213 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: I have and then what what do you do? I 214 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: go to another one sort of grudgingly, yes, exactly, And 215 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: so this is kind of what they were setting out 216 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: to do with the with the rats too. In the 217 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: rats UH study, this model of of having to fall 218 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: back on a plan, be adjusting your your your plans, 219 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: and then how you think about past and future choices. 220 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: The rats in this study were given the chance to 221 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: feed on four flavors and four different feeding stations. Banana 222 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: always a jazzy choice, cherry also good chocolate everyone loves it, 223 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: and unflavored, which leaves a lot to be desired. Now, 224 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: each rat is going to have its own in this experiment, 225 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: had its own preferences on and its own patients level 226 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: regarding how long they're gonna wait for something they want 227 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: to eat, you know, just like any of us as 228 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: we go out to get that meal on say a 229 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: Friday date night or what have you. Um So, when 230 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: the rats arrived at a station, a tone would let 231 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: them know how long they would have to wait for 232 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: their grub. And that could be one second way, or 233 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: it could be a forty five second way. And again, 234 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: if you're only living up to three years, that forty 235 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: five second way is maybe a little more substantial. The 236 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: researchers found that the rats decided to stay or go 237 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: based on that tone based on the perspective weight, the 238 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: same way humans would with a crowded restaurant. You know, 239 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: two hour Wait, screw that, I'm going to Denny's and 240 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: there I'm gonna eat it fast and angry, and then 241 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm moving on. And it was the same with the rats, 242 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: but much much like a human that goes to to 243 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: Denny's over the latest fusion dining sensation, the rats who 244 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: skipped out on quality um favorite show for something faster 245 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: and then showed regret. Uh. And then researchers observed the 246 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: brain activity of via a little invasive tinkering and indicated 247 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: that the rats were engaged in what they called mental 248 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: time travel. So they're imagining the alternate reality of eating 249 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: in the restaurant that it skipped and the that ability, 250 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: of course, is core to so much of the human experience, 251 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: right the regretting the past, worrying over the future, the 252 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: entire wheel of human suffering, because uh uh. As the 253 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: rats quickly angerate their lackluster plan B meals, they were 254 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: already plotting the next better meal, which I mean, this 255 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: is a very human thing, right, Like how many times 256 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: have you anger eaten at a place which you're like, 257 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: I really didn't want to do this, yeah, or even 258 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: if it's still good, you're kind of like all right, 259 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: well this is good, but I really wanted to try 260 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: that ramen, you know, yeah, I mean, and the regret 261 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: is it feels like one of those really human things. 262 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to see it played out in this context. Now, 263 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: another thing that UM has been a bit of a 264 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: surprise here in the last five years is this idea 265 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: that rats can exhibit empathy. And so the next study 266 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about UM covers empathy, but 267 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: it also covers chocolate. As you mentioned before, Like this 268 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: turns out to be one of rats favorite snacks, and 269 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: like this is a very important thing in the world 270 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: of rats if you have access to chocolate. And this 271 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: will come into play in a moment. So two thousand eleven, Neurosciences, 272 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: Peggy Mason, she devised an experiment where two rat mates 273 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: were housed together for a few weeks, and then she 274 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: placed one into a transparent tube that could only be 275 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: opened from the outside. Now, the other rat, the free rat, 276 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: was pretty curious. It was kind of sniffing around, and 277 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: perhaps it was even a little bit frightened because it 278 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: didn't immediately open the door. There's this idea that it 279 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: could be experiencing something called emotional contagion. This this sort 280 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: of fear that um in a group situation where you 281 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: feel that other person's fear and is very uncomfortable. Right, 282 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: So it's possible that that rat was kind of shying 283 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: away at first, but once it kind of got this idea, oh, 284 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: my friend just trapped in here, or my cage mates 285 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: trapped in here, over and over again they would see 286 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: that this rat would release the other rat that was 287 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: trapped in the container. Now, the researchers had variations on 288 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: this experiment. In one case, they put a fake rat 289 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: in the container, which kind of like, come on, guys, 290 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: you know rats are pretty smart. They're going to realize 291 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: that that's a fake rat. And of course they did 292 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: not try to release the fake rat. And then they 293 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: had another version in which they presented a rat holding 294 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: container um with a ratit and another one another rat 295 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: holding container which contained chocolate. So this is where the 296 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: willpower comes in, because again, here's this thing in front 297 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: of you. This chocolate is the your most prized possession 298 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: of your tiny rat life if you can access this. 299 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: And what they found is that the rodents, the free ones, 300 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: would actually go and free the cage mate and then 301 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: they would go and get the chocolate, and not only 302 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: would they get the chocolate second as this altruistic act, 303 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: but they would share it with the cage mate. There's 304 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: there's many a human that would not do that. I 305 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: feel exactly right, and so this is very pro social behavior. 306 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: And there was a follow ups study in two thousand 307 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: and fourteen and the idea was, well, what happens if 308 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: you put uh like rats in with other rats, so 309 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: like meaning all albino, And then you do a sort 310 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: of variation on that and you take say a black 311 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: hooded rat with albino rat. Would they free each other 312 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: even though they're of different strains. What they found is 313 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: that when they had albino rats that were complete strangers, 314 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: and the free albino rat came across the stranger albino 315 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: rat that was in the container, it would free it. Okay, 316 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: if they put this is the short and dirty of this. Okay, 317 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: if they put the black hooded rat in a container 318 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: and they were both strangers, the albino rat would not 319 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: free it. However, if later on the albino rat was 320 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: housed with the black hooded rat, it would free it. 321 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: So it had to have some sort of relationship or 322 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: environmental contact with it. And then they found out too 323 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: that once the albino rat had the experience with a 324 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: different strain i e. The black hooded rat, that it 325 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: would then release other strangers who happened to be black 326 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: hooded rats. And the implications of that are really interesting 327 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: because you see that play out in society. Right, we 328 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: see a stranger, we're not so certain about that person, 329 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: we're not so trusting. We don't know if we want 330 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: to help that person because they are apart from us, right, 331 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: But once you experienced that person as another, as part 332 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 1: of your circle, or you relate with that to that person, 333 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: then you want to help that person. Right. Yeah. It's 334 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: like straight up enemy mind with Dennis Quaid and Lewis 335 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: Gossip Jr. It's the human and the alien and they 336 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: hate each other in the crash land on the same planet. 337 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: But then they learn, uh that they get to know 338 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: each other, they have respect for each other, and suddenly 339 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: they're looking after each other against a greater enemy. Yeah. 340 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: And so what I think is interesting about that is 341 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: that it kind of proves that this idea that the 342 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: more diversity that have aren't exposed to well, the more 343 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: empathy that you can exhibit, and the more connection that 344 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: you have with your fellow rats or your fellow humans, 345 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: and moreover, According to Benamy Bartel, who is one of 346 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: the researchers on the two thousand and fourteen project, he said, quote, 347 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 1: we share the same neural structure with rats that we 348 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: use for our own epathetic responses. Our brain structures are 349 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: responding in the same way. They are shaped in the 350 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: same way when it comes to those sort of responses 351 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: that require us to be empathetic. Now, at this point 352 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 1: you might be saying, all right, well, that's that's all 353 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: well and good. They can display some level of of empathy. 354 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: But what about what about higher thought? What about higher 355 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: levels of human thoughts such as um meta cognition. Uh, 356 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 1: we're talking the ability to reflect on one's own mental processes. 357 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: And this is this key stuff to human experience. Right, 358 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: this is enough that makes or can make us rational animals. 359 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: It's it's about realizing, oh, I I don't have enough 360 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: in my head to call this problem. I need to 361 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: do some homework. Or in loftier scenarios, it's the straight 362 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: up sort of meditative that car tot a kind of 363 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: a situation where you're stepping outside of your own thoughts 364 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: and looking at them. Well, four rats, we see this 365 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: as well. At two thousand seven, studied by researchers at 366 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: the University of Georgia, the researchers trained rats to press 367 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: a lever when they heard a short burst of static, 368 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: and another one when they heard a long burst of static. 369 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: Push the correct one, rat, and you will get a 370 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: food pellet. Push the wrong one and you get nothing. Uh. 371 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: It's it's what we call a duration discrimination test. And 372 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: there's an additional catch here. If the rats decline the 373 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: test completely, they receive a smaller reward anyway, like a 374 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: half pellet. I can think of it as a consolation prize, 375 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: you know. It's like a big moment on the game 376 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: show where you can you can go for the big 377 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: prize behind door number three, or just take home the 378 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: washing machine that you already won. Now that probably sounds 379 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: all pretty straightforward, right, But then the researchers start tinkering 380 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: with the links of the static bird, making it harder 381 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: for the rats to aceh the test and reap the rewards. 382 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: So the core findings here when when the rats were 383 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: uncertain about what they knew about the test and its parameters. 384 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: They find themselves unsure how long has that burst? In 385 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: which level am I supposed to to pull? They just 386 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: cut their losses. They go with the smaller reward. In 387 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 1: other words, they admit that they don't know, they're thinking 388 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: about thinking um and that there they realize their understanding 389 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: of the situation is it's strong enough and it's better 390 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: not to play and take that consolation prize. You know 391 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: what I like about this is that it's first of 392 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: all the fact that those medium tones which were ambiguous, 393 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: you know, like it's easy to get those short and 394 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: long ones right for humans, but those ambiguous ones are 395 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 1: hard for us as well. I mean, it's not just rats. 396 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: And I like that they that they are admitting to 397 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: a certain degree like I'm not quite sure what my 398 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: path is. But also there's this kind of like Vegas 399 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: odds thing at work here, Like I feel like there's 400 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: going to be a round to to the Vegas version. 401 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: But the next movie, the sequel, goes to Vegas. It 402 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: would be good stuff. Now have you ever seen a 403 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: magazine called US? I think it's called US. Yes, I've 404 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: seen it in UM in grocery stores. Yeah, it's kind 405 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: of like the uh like that. I don't want to 406 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: say the downtrodden version of people, but maybe like the 407 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: less glossy in journalistically competent version is this one that 408 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: they put the screens over sometimes in grocery stores because 409 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: the headlines are too sexy. I don't think there are 410 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: two sexy. They're just really like very celebrity driven to 411 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: a certain degree that's completely ridiculous. In fact, they have 412 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: a section and I've seen this in my doctor's office, 413 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: and the section is celebrities just like us. It'll show 414 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: like Britney Spears getting you know, some Starbucks coffee or 415 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: something like that, and it's so ridiculously funny. And because 416 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: it's you know, yes, they're human, that's actually probably a 417 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: good message for um, for your checkoutline reading or waiting 418 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: room reading, because at least in the the checkoutline you 419 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: do see those horrible headlines where it's where they're just 420 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: treating these celebrities like like animals on display, and it's 421 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: good to remember their human on some level. Yeah, And 422 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: that's a lovely way to put it, that like animals 423 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: on display. And so you kind of half expect when 424 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: you're going through one of these things, and you start 425 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: thinking about rats to see this in the same light, 426 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: like rats they're just like us. They laugh And I'm 427 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: sure you guys out there have heard about this before, 428 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: but rats do laugh and they can be tickled. Um. 429 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: This was found out in the nineties by neuroscientists Shack 430 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: Bounds pans kept p A. N. K. Svpp and his 431 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: colleagues that begin to eavesdrop on frolicking rats, and they 432 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: found out that when they were playing, or they were 433 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 1: just about to play, they were anticipating, they emitted this 434 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: unique fifty killer hurts chip chirp. And it was only 435 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: during that time they figured out this chirp was kind 436 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: of like a laugh. And so one thing led to another, 437 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: as they do, and they found themselves in the lab 438 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: tickling rodents and what they call somato sensory stimulation. And 439 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: in fact, when they did this, they found that rats 440 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: emitted more laughter when being tickled by people than during 441 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: any other activity. Now, I have to say it that 442 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: aspect of this kind of chills me because have you 443 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: ever been tickled against your will? It's terrible. It is 444 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: you you feel like it's it's like being assaulted in 445 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: a funny way. Yeah. Yeah, it's like you're like stop 446 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: and you're laughing, and it just feels like this grotesque moment. 447 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 1: You can't stop laughing, and yet you don't want to 448 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: be tickled, and so the signals aren't matching up. Yeah. 449 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 1: Like it's interesting to watch my son react to it, 450 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: because he'll, you know, if you tickle him. It's like 451 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: it's very much like he's laughing uncontrollably. He's under attack. 452 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: He's like stop, stop, stop, and then you stop and 453 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: he says, do it again, right right, So pan's kept 454 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: in their colleagues, they described their tickling method fustly, so 455 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: keep that in mind. These these rats that are like 456 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: tickle me, don't tickle me, tickle me to don't take me, 457 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: they say. Quote. The tickling was done with the right 458 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 1: hand and consisted of rapid initial finger movements across the 459 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: back with a focus on the neck, followed by rapidly 460 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: turning the animals over on their backs with vigorous tickling 461 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: of the ventral surface, followed by release after a few 462 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: seconds of stimulation. This was repeated throughout each tickling session. 463 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: Even though the tickling was brisk and assertive, care was 464 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: taken not to frighten the animals. So yeah, I love 465 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: that language in describing the tickling of a rat, and 466 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: it sort of the nice, sort of detached clinical language 467 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: of the scientific study it is. But I would love 468 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: to see another study of the research assistance tickling to 469 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: see how it affected them, you know, did it? And 470 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: then maybe a follow up study with komodo dragons. Just 471 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: just proof, just to lose some toasts, just to lose 472 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: some So here are a couple other findings from the study. 473 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 1: Rats housed by themselves sought out tickling by humans more 474 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: than rats that shared their cages with other rats, which 475 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: was interesting, right. This is their way of maybe compensating 476 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: for a lack of social interaction. Rats who enjoyed the 477 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: tickling initiated play with the researchers, emitting more laughter and 478 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: play biding the hand when these are some of the 479 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: same features that you see with rat on rat play. 480 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: And rats that didn't like to be tickled tended to 481 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: be anxious and neurotic, while laughter prone rats were friendlier 482 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: and handled stress better. And this is really the crux 483 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: of this study, because it's not just about hey, let's 484 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: tickle some rats. It's more like, let's see how they're 485 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: using this very pro social behavior, laughter and tickling to 486 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: modulate the stresses of their life. And then let's look 487 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: at rodents who are tickle adverse, because there are some, 488 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: and try to bump this up against human mood disorders 489 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: and figure out what's going on. And lo and behold, 490 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: they found out this is really interesting, something called neurogenesis, 491 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: which is new nerve cell growth in the hippocampus. They 492 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: found that those cats, those cats, those rats that were 493 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: tickle adverse will they when they were tickled, didn't have 494 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: any surge in new uh nerve cell growth in the neurogenesis, 495 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: and those rats that did like to be tickled well, 496 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: had a ton of neurogenesis. And I thought that was 497 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: particularly poignant because if you you know, of course I'm 498 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: projecting here, but if you look at depression or mood 499 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: disorders and humans, you can see that when um, a 500 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: person is racked with anxiety or depression, it really is 501 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: paralyzing to the person. And then in this way you 502 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: see the same sort of thing playing out in the 503 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: neural substrate of a rat. So they you have it, 504 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: the laughing rat science of the laughing rat. Uh Julie 505 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: if you ever, I don't know, fallen in love with 506 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: the statue, and then your love for that statue made 507 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: that statue come alive into a living flesh being, well 508 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: not exactly a statue, but like a golemn. And it 509 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: was just once okay, al right, we get that's acceptable. 510 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: You know, we in our youth, we all have to 511 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: experiment with the unliving made flesh, and the golm was 512 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: going to come to life anyway. I just just hurrying 513 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: along the process. Yeah, it's true. I mean, it's one 514 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: of those cases where the Dear John letter that you 515 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: write is actually on the golemn's forehead as you change 516 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: the the uh the signal um. We're of course talking 517 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: about alluding to the Roman poet Ovid's Pigmalion tale. Right, 518 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: sculptor falls in love with the statue that he's created 519 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: and it comes to life. What does that have to 520 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: do with rats? Well, comes down to something that we 521 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: call the Pigmalion effect. Yeah, And in nineteen sixty three 522 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: there was a cologists, or there is a psychologist who 523 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: began to really look at this unconscious experiment or bias 524 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: as he called it. Then and Robert Rosenthal have been 525 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: really working with humans on this because he had this 526 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: hunch right that the experimenters were affecting the subjects that 527 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: they were studying, and so he wanted to look a 528 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: little bit further into this idea that you could unconsciously 529 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: affect the outcome of someone's performance. Um and now, by 530 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 1: the way, this is also called the expectancy effect and 531 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: the Rosenthal effect. And in order for him to really 532 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: build up his research, he turned to rats initially, and 533 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: in one of his early experiments he tested the effects 534 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: of the experimental expectancy on maze running performance. And he 535 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: had two groups of research students test rats wrongly informing 536 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: them either that the rats were specially bred to be 537 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: quote maze dull or quote maze bright maze runners like 538 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: in the young adult series and subsequent movies. Indeed, so 539 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: they were either Dollard's or quite clever, right, And this 540 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: is the idea that these research students had when they 541 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: were handling the rats. So in reality, of course, all 542 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: the rats were standard lab rats and they were randomly 543 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: assigned to the Dull group or the Bright group, and 544 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: the results show that the rats labeled as bright learned 545 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: the mazes more quickly than those labeled as dull. And 546 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: apparently the students had unconsciously influenced the performance of their 547 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: rats depending on what they had been told. So these 548 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: unconscious clues would play out in the way that they 549 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: handled the rats, so nurturing and careful for those clever 550 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: hans rats, right, or dismissive and more sort of brusque 551 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: movements with them with the ones that were considered dull. 552 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: And that was sort of like this earth shattering UH 553 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: idea that unconsciously you could be saying things or you 554 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: could have physical cues that would affect the person's performance. Yeah, 555 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean we're getting into the power of stigma here, 556 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: the and the and the power of privilege and uh, 557 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: and there are of course obvious human ratifications here and 558 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: UH and Rosenthal was was was was definitely interested in those. 559 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: UH followed up with the Nive experiment in which children 560 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: were identified as growth s Burgers in school. The Grossburgers 561 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: not meaning that they're gonna grow from its league tall, 562 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: but rather they were expected to make academic strides. And 563 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: the thing is that they did, They followed their performance 564 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: and they showed. Yeah, the kids that were identified as 565 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: growth s Burgers, UH, definitely improved academically. But it comes 566 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: down to the same situation as the rats. They were 567 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: just selected at random. There was no weeding out of 568 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: who had you know what, what necessary criteria to succeed. 569 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: So UM, the idea here is that UM is that 570 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: you know they're they're in the classroom. They're labeled as 571 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: as special as growth spurgers, and so that affects, uh, 572 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, the teacher student interaction, and it also affects 573 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: the students expectations of self. It gets into communication, warmth 574 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: of communication, the depth of the teaching, better feedback resources, uh, etcetera. 575 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: All because they went into it expecting thinking that this 576 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: particular child is going to achieve more than the one 577 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: next to it. Yeah, and that's huge, right because everyone 578 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: comes into the classroom with biases. There's no way to 579 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: get around it. But if you're aware of it, then 580 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: perhaps you can change your behavior and those kids can 581 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: get a fair shake. Carol Dweck, who we've mentioned before, 582 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: she's a psychologist and researcher at Stanford. She said, quote, 583 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: you may be standing farther away from someone you have 584 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: or expectations for. You may not be making as much 585 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: eye contact, and it's not something you can put your 586 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: finger on. We are not usually aware of how we 587 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: are conveying our expectations to other people, but it's there, 588 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: all right. So at this point in the podcast, we 589 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: find ourselves in kind of a post secretive nim viewing 590 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: situation where, uh, you know, obviously these uh, these these 591 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: lab rats and mice have contributed so much and will 592 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: continue to contribute to our medical research or understanding of 593 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 1: of what it is to be human and how we work. 594 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: But at the same time, we see, we see all 595 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: of this this science um backing up the idea that 596 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: they're they're more than just rats. They're a little more 597 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: like us than perhaps we're ready for. And yet, according 598 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: to an amendment made to the Animal Welfare Act in 599 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, rats including mice of the genus Mews, 600 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: bread for research and labs and birds are not considered animals. 601 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: And this is a kind of semantic distancing. It's a 602 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: way for government agencies in the United States to get 603 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: around issues concerning personhood, paining, and empathy when using these animals, 604 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: particularly in these highly invasive experiments. Not just maze running here, yeah, 605 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: like actually like putting wires into the brain and and 606 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: and Endwarf's things. Yeah, and in actual studies on pain. Right. Um, 607 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: so it's just interesting that this this is an animal 608 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: that is not concerned animal and yet um, you know, 609 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: recent research is really beginning to show us to what 610 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: degree in particular empathy is available to this species and 611 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: not just this species but other species. Yeah. I mean 612 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: to think that this animal in this cage, in this 613 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: lab is technically lab equipment really from from from a 614 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: legal standpoint, um, but to your point, yeah, we end 615 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: up seeing the rat as more than mere vermin, more 616 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: than mere disease vectors, and handy by logical test subjects. Um, 617 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: what changes we find ourselves dealing with this? This new 618 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: branch of ethology ethology is the science of animal behavior. Uh. 619 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: This new branch is called cognitive ethology, and it's concerned 620 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: with the influence of conscious awareness and intention on the 621 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: behavior of an animal. So a lot of the research 622 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: stems from the work of zoologists Donald Griffin. But uh, 623 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: but you see it's spreading out. Really if you pay 624 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: attention to science headlines coming down the coming down the pike. Uh, 625 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: we regularly see research uh, not just mice, but a 626 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: variety of animals where we're we're really stopping and saying, 627 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: what is human consciousness? What are the sort of the 628 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: parameters we can pick out off on that outside of 629 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: our our blind brain bias and uh and and what 630 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: can we identify these other creatures? Because while you know, 631 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: we have plenty of informal accounts of rat consciousness that 632 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: have been around for a while doing no small part 633 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: to pet owners and animal lovers and and perhaps no 634 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: all part due to projection, uh, you know, projecting on them, 635 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: kind of having a Pygmalion effect with the animal to 636 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: make it more human and more live. But the thing 637 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: is now we're seeing neuroscientific backup for so many of 638 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: those feelings. Uh and again not just with rats, but 639 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: with a wild wide variety of animals. Yeah. I was 640 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: just thinking about our episode that we did on elephant empathy, 641 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 1: and here's a case where it's really apparent and there's 642 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: a whole lot of projecting, right, because this is this 643 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: gentle giant that we all know and love, and it's 644 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: got that trunk, and the trunk is very expressive and 645 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: as we have learned from Dr France to Wall who's 646 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: a biologists primatologists, um, elephants are are very perceptive, and 647 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: they get distressed when they see others in distress, and 648 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: they reach out to calm each other down. And it's 649 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: a not too dissimilar to a way that chimpanzees or 650 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: humans embrace one another. And we see that played out 651 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: in the animal mole world over and over again. So 652 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: we've reached this understanding of empathy and other animals, and 653 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: yet there still seems to be this dividing line, this 654 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: kind of human exceptionalism. Yeah, I mean, I mean the 655 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: basic question are humans exceptional? Are we something other than animals? 656 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: Are we some sort of highly evolved ascendant species above 657 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: everything else, or are we just highly evolved rat essentially 658 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: torturing our kin to advance our own scientific understanding of 659 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: the world. Like in researching this episode, I kept thinking 660 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: of of of this fortress of consciousness, you know this, uh, 661 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: this this fortress that humans have built, and for the 662 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: longest they are the only ones allowed to occupy the 663 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: inner protection of that fortress. And then eventually we learned 664 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: enough to say, all right, well, the great apes can 665 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,720 Speaker 1: come in. Okay, you you guys have have some level 666 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: of of of consciousness and will admit that you can 667 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: live in some part, and there's no dispute how similar 668 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: we are. So I guess we gotta let you. I 669 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: gotta let you in the sciences on the table. And 670 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: yet we've discussed in previous episodes, we end up with 671 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: with data that emerges on other animals that we have 672 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: to at least some of us, have to let into 673 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: the fortress, you know, from dolphins and elephants to even 674 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: something like the the octopus, which is which has a 675 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: very different brain than our mammalian brain. But when you 676 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: start looking at it, when you start taking yourself outside 677 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 1: of the human uh bias and put it put yourself 678 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: in the octopus as much as possible, you have to 679 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: start questioning is this animal conscious too? So that brings 680 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: us back to rats. Are they truly empathetic? Are they 681 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: truly conscious on some level? And then if they are, 682 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: what happens to animal testing? How do you? What do 683 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: we do? I mean, we've already seen the whole situation 684 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: where with the legislation, we're almost preparing for that battle 685 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: by going ahead and uh and devaluing them to mere 686 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: lab equipment. Yeah. Well, some people would say too, when 687 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: it comes to empathy and rats, that it's just a 688 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: heightened form of the ootional contagion, right that these rats 689 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: are they're just feeling so um distraught over another rats, 690 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: distress that they're trying to make it stop. That it's 691 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: not necessarily empathy from an altruistic point of view. But 692 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: Peggy Mason, one of the lead researchers and there's rat 693 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: empathy studies, will say it takes a lot for a 694 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: rat to downgrade its own fear in that emotional contagion 695 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: situation in order to actually go and free the other rat. 696 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: So there's something more going on than just mirror emotional contagion. 697 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: And I really like this quote because Peggy Mason, I 698 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: think hit it right on the hat. She says she's 699 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: more than happy to consider herself a rat with a 700 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 1: fancy neo cortex. In other words, she there, there's the similarity, 701 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: is there? We just kind of have this nice, beautiful 702 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: neo cortex sitting atop our already rat nous. Yeah. I 703 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: mean I think of it in terms of word processes. 704 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,439 Speaker 1: I end up writing a lot in Microsoft. Word has 705 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,479 Speaker 1: lots of bells and whistles, many of which I don't 706 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: even use. It has all your spell check and what 707 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: have you But then there's also just Microsoft Text, which 708 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: is just pretty basic. But is it fair to say 709 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: that word is a word processor and text is not 710 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: a word processor when they both essentially do the same thing, 711 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: except one is a little more complex than the other. 712 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: Well in one, right, So it's empathy in both scripts, 713 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 1: right one just one is just maybe we can talk 714 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: about more, right, because we have the facility to in 715 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 1: our own language. But who knows that rats aren't talking 716 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: about empathy in their own language, which is I know, 717 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: sort of crazy. But these are these are ideas circulating 718 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: um And the idea here too is that empathy for 719 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: humans allows us to momentarily occupy the mind space of another. 720 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: And the idea of that is that when we can 721 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: do this, we can help support one another. We can 722 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: guess what's going on, we can make predictions. It is 723 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: one of the cornerstones of a civilization. Cooperation and the 724 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: ability to um you know, put some sort of pattern 725 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: recognition into place. And to say that this is only 726 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: available to primates is you know, looking to be more 727 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: and more erroneous of a line of logic. But what 728 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: happens when those um high thinking, self aware humans inevitably 729 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: bite the dust, either due to their own mismanagement of 730 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: their resources, their misuse of their weapons, or just some 731 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: cosmic calamity that comes crashing down from the sky. What 732 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: happens to the meager ratituli. What happens to the meager rat, 733 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: Rats will take revenge. That's right. So when the sixth 734 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 1: mass extinction occurs, rats may just be the Winner's here. 735 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: We're not saying this is fact. This is largely a 736 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: thought experiment thought up by John Zalo Swiss, a geologist 737 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: at the University of Leicester in the United Kingdom. He 738 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: studies Earth history and his colleagues and he we're just 739 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: kind of sitting around thinking, Hey, what if we're at 740 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: the edge of a mass extinction, what animal would be 741 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 1: most likely to survive and repopulate the Earth. Yeah, and 742 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,280 Speaker 1: he contends it's the rat, because we discussed their survivors. 743 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 1: They are, they have all the skills they need to 744 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: survive and thrive in new environments. They pretty much colonize 745 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: the entire world and they stiffer stand toe to toe 746 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 1: with humans on that on that particular accomplishment. Uh So, 747 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: when the environment changes, when the world changes in a 748 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 1: way that completely leaves humanity behind. These are gonna be 749 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: the rats are gonna be one of those species that 750 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: can that can actually thrive in this vastly new world. 751 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: And of course there's gonna they're gonna be some additional 752 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: mutations as well, that's right. Uh, they may be larger. 753 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: That's the idea that Zalaswitz was talking about. Here is 754 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: the time frame of this purported rat takeover would be 755 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: about three million to ten million years from now end, 756 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: based on previous rates of repopulation after mass extinctions, as 757 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: thought that the rat would grow much larger in size 758 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: um And again, you know, again this is a thought experiment, 759 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,240 Speaker 1: but it makes a lot of sense when you look 760 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: at how wildly they are, and how they repopulate or 761 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: reproduce so quickly, and how clever and social they are. Yeah, 762 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's not that difficult to imagine a 763 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: future in which intelligent mutated rats are are running the 764 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 1: streets and there are no humans around. Now, will they 765 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: have mutated turtles in their midst as well? I don't know. 766 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: I leave that for the scientists to decide. I think 767 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: you're you are you excited about that notion? I am, because, 768 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: because of course, in teenage Ninja turtles. You have splinter 769 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: the intelligent rat, remember and uh, and of course that 770 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: leads to turtles, and then from there it just gets 771 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: It's it's crazy, but maybe that comic and TV shows 772 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: actually add blimps into our future, which just reminds us 773 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: all again that the little blip on the radar of 774 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: time that we all are all right on that count. Hey. 775 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: If you want to check out more episodes of this podcast, 776 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: um more blog post videos linkside our social media accounts, 777 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: you can do so by visiting stuff to Blow your 778 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. If you have thoughts about rats that 779 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,760 Speaker 1: you want to share with us, or any other animals really, 780 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,240 Speaker 1: particularly concerning empathy, please send us your thoughts at below 781 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: the mind at how stuff works dot com. For more 782 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff 783 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: works dot com