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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number fifty eight. Tay.

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Speaker 1: In the show, we're joined by Russ Mason of the

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Speaker 1: Michigan d n R to discuss dear diseases and the

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Speaker 1: challenges of managing a state's white tail Herb all right,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you

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Speaker 1: by Sick of Gear. Now today in the show, as

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned, we're going to be joined by Russ Mason,

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Speaker 1: the Chief Wildlife Officer for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to get him on the phone with

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Speaker 1: us today to discuss a number of things. Most timely, though,

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Speaker 1: we'll be discussing dear diseases, specifically c w D and

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Speaker 1: e h D. And this is particularly relevant right now

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Speaker 1: because just as of last week, it was announced that

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Speaker 1: the first case of c w D in a wild

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Speaker 1: deer in Michigan was discovered, and this has triggered a

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Speaker 1: lot of concern across my home state. So today we'll

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Speaker 1: be talking to Rus all about that, as well as

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Speaker 1: other diseases such as h D and a number of

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Speaker 1: other challenges that are faced by someone in his position

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Speaker 1: who's trying to manage a deer herd from the state level.

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Speaker 1: So it's going to be a super interesting conversation. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited about it. But before we get to all that, Dan,

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Speaker 1: how are you. I'm doing fantastic, Really, I'm doing I'm

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Speaker 1: doing pretty good. I've got about four hours asleep in

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Speaker 1: the past forty eight hours. So this is this is

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Speaker 1: bake enthusiasm. All right, You're doing are good job of them.

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Speaker 1: So I have to be like this or if the

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Speaker 1: alternative is I just starts dropping f bombs and cursing

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Speaker 1: and a typical Wired Hump podcast, then exactly exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't endo your sleep situation, that's sure. But enough

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Speaker 1: about that. We are in inside ninety days before we

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Speaker 1: go to Idaho. Really, yep, that's kind of crazy. I

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Speaker 1: didn't that realize it has come up that soon. Well,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, though, it's not that long till all

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Speaker 1: of us are in Idaho. You know what does that mean? Well,

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Speaker 1: it means I'm in Idaho right now. But I know,

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Speaker 1: but you gotta come back to get me. I suppose

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna make me drive eighteen hours by myself.

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Speaker 1: That'd be kind of funny though, just to drop that

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Speaker 1: on you, like a couple of days before. And hey,

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Speaker 1: just by the way, I'm just gonna stay out here.

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Speaker 1: Oh cool. Thanks, Mark's hope enjoy getting punched in the

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Speaker 1: face when I see Hey, how do I sound. By

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Speaker 1: the way, this is the first time I've recorded from

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Speaker 1: my new U temporary studio, right, and I just want

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Speaker 1: to make a quick announcement here that Mark is recording

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Speaker 1: from Idaho and in some beautiful, glorious mountains, and I'm

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Speaker 1: in my basement surrounded by like a bucket full of

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Speaker 1: baby diapers and like one one huge shed that I

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Speaker 1: thought would be a good decoration for this bedroom that

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Speaker 1: I'm in. Well, it sounds like we're both living the dream, Dad, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: living the dream. Amen. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. That's nothing

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Speaker 1: I can say. I can just say nothing I can do.

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Speaker 1: Going on vacation, Yeah, go on vacation. But yeah, since

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Speaker 1: we last chatted, I drove like two thousand miles across

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Speaker 1: the country and uh, now I'm sitting here on the Wyoming,

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Speaker 1: Idaho line just on the edge of the mountains and uh,

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Speaker 1: enjoying a little bit of fresh air and adventure for

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Speaker 1: a couple of months. So the one thing I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: miss tho I was thinking, you know, was the fact

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Speaker 1: that I'm not gonna be able to drive around and

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Speaker 1: do my you know, deer drives like I usually do,

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Speaker 1: looking for big velvet white tails, or check my trail

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Speaker 1: cameras and everything. So I'm gonna have to live that

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Speaker 1: part of my life vicariously through you for the next

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks. So fill me in. You can live

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Speaker 1: through me all you want, um right now. If you

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Speaker 1: want to live through me, you can get sleep deprivation

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Speaker 1: and uh and uh. Like you know, with kids, it's

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Speaker 1: all about milestones. Like like my son just had as

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Speaker 1: big as poopy diaper ever, so that's good because we

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Speaker 1: know his bowel movements are where they're supposed to be at.

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Speaker 1: You know, milestones. That's that's the best kind of milestones, right,

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Speaker 1: the fecal matter type. Yeah, exactly. I got pete on

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Speaker 1: yes day. So you know, we're just hitting par we're

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Speaker 1: playing par golf here. With life, it could be worse.

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Speaker 1: It could be worse. I could be in Idaho in

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Speaker 1: a mountain, uh, instead of scouting for white tail scouting

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Speaker 1: from meal there. Right, that's a double bogy that I'm

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Speaker 1: handling right now exactly. So I've been pretty fortunate that's

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Speaker 1: worked out that I'm able to do this. So it'll

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Speaker 1: be it'll be cool. I'll keep you updated and the listeners,

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Speaker 1: and there'll be some interesting things a little non white

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Speaker 1: tail related going on out here. But every once in

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Speaker 1: a while you need a slight change of scenery. So right,

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Speaker 1: so that's what I'm gonna be doing here. But we've

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Speaker 1: got some important white tail stuff to discuss to dan Um.

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Speaker 1: As you know, and as I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people know, it's been in the news a lot. C

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Speaker 1: w D was discovered in my home state in a wild,

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Speaker 1: free ranging deer for the first time. So it's got

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of talk going on right now about

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Speaker 1: c w D. And you know, you and I talked

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Speaker 1: about this just a few weeks ago when we talked

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Speaker 1: through you know, the things that were discussed at the

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Speaker 1: North American Deer Summit and the Captain Deer industry, and

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Speaker 1: c w D was a big part of that um

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Speaker 1: And so it's it's relatively timely or it's unfortunate, but

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Speaker 1: it it's uh ironic maybe that this is now happening,

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Speaker 1: happening in the real world just after we talked about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the risks of it potentially showing up. So

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Speaker 1: what was the last major state that had a case

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Speaker 1: of this? Wisconsin? Well, Wisconsin has had it for a

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Speaker 1: for a pretty long time known and that's I think,

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Speaker 1: as far as I've seen, that's the largest outbreak that's

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Speaker 1: been affecting white tails has been Wisconsin because they had

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Speaker 1: some major issues, you know, in the early two thousand's,

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Speaker 1: and they had some significant management changes that their DNR

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Speaker 1: put in place to to try to control that. UM.

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Speaker 1: But I know it's been popping up in different places. UM.

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Speaker 1: I know it's popped up in deer farms in Iowa,

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Speaker 1: in Ohio, UM, a few places like that. So I

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Speaker 1: know it's it's here and there. UM. But the free

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Speaker 1: ranging deer is the scarier thing, which definitely was what

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Speaker 1: was happening Wisconsin and now in Michigan. So it's one

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Speaker 1: of those things that keeps on happening. And CWD has

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Speaker 1: been around for a while and popping up in small,

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Speaker 1: isolated cases. But um, the greater concern is that if

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Speaker 1: it starts spreading, you know, it's not something that is

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Speaker 1: easily managed. But um, but I'm no expert on the topic,

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Speaker 1: and that's really why we're having this episode today with

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Speaker 1: our guest Russ Mason, who's the Chief Wildlife Officer for

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Speaker 1: the Michigan DNR, and he is dealing with the situation

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Speaker 1: right now. Since his organization, the DNR, is responsible, you know,

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Speaker 1: as far as I understand, it's gonna be responsible for

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Speaker 1: managing this issue. So I'm hoping that rather than me

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Speaker 1: try to talk about c w D, UM, Russ can

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Speaker 1: tell us about, you know, what's happening, how it's happening,

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Speaker 1: what the plan is, um, and then you know, we

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Speaker 1: can talk about some different things to regarding what he does.

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Speaker 1: You know, also, he dealt with a lot of h

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Speaker 1: D issues back in two thousand twelve. I know, you

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Speaker 1: guys and I Alwall get hit hard that year, Michigan

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Speaker 1: get hit hard. UM, So I want to pick his

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Speaker 1: brain a little up that And then I mean, hey,

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Speaker 1: we've got someone from the DNR, a wildlife agency representative

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Speaker 1: on the line. So there's a lot of things I

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Speaker 1: think that you know, you and we have talked about

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Speaker 1: two about that relationship between hunters and those agencies, and

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Speaker 1: maybe we can pick his brain a little bit about

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Speaker 1: that too. So I think there'snna a lot for us

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Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah, no doubt. Let's get him on the phone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I say we should stop beating around the bush and

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Speaker 1: give Russ a call. Before we get to that, though,

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Speaker 1: we need to pause briefly to thank our sponsors of

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Speaker 1: this episode of the Wired Hunt podcast, Redneck Blinds. Now.

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Speaker 1: And interestingly, one of my very best hunting members of

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Speaker 1: my dad, which I created just a few months ago

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Speaker 1: out turkey hunting with him, actually happened while we're hunting

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Speaker 1: in my bail blind and sitting in my Redneck chair.

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Speaker 1: promo code wired w I R E D. Now let's

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Speaker 1: get chatting with Russ Mason. Alright, with us on the

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Speaker 1: line now is Russ Mason of the Michigan d n R.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to show. Russ. Hey, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Yeah, we're really glad you can

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Speaker 1: join us. Um, there's a lot of things on our

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Speaker 1: minds and I know a lot of our listeners minds

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Speaker 1: that I think you can really help us understand. So

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Speaker 1: we're excited to have you on the line. Um, But

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Speaker 1: before we dive into you know, all these different things

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Speaker 1: going on right now, can you tell us just a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what you do with the with the

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Speaker 1: skin dn R and what you're responsible for. Well, the

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Speaker 1: Michigan dn R is comprised of a number of divisions.

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Speaker 1: I'm the chief of the Wildlife Division. There's also a

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Speaker 1: Forster divisional Law Enforcement of Parks and Recreation UH, and

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Speaker 1: the Fisheries Division. What Wildlife Division does is essentially manage

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Speaker 1: wildlife and their habitats across the state of Michigan. We

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Speaker 1: have about four hundred and thirty thousand acres of state

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Speaker 1: game areas in the southern Lower Peninsula that we manage exclusively,

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Speaker 1: and we co manage about four million acres of land

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Speaker 1: in the in the Northern Lower Peninsula and across the

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Speaker 1: up we co manage in partnership with our Forest Resources Division.

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Speaker 1: Unlike a lot of states, all of these various components

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Speaker 1: are in one department. So it gives us a really

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Speaker 1: good opportunity to come up with optimal solutions that both

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Speaker 1: benefit timber production and wildlife. And that's important. If you

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Speaker 1: consider the timber production of the state of Michigan is

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Speaker 1: a sixteen billion dollar business, and fishing and honey it

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Speaker 1: is about a four point seven in dollar business on

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Speaker 1: an annual basis. Wow, So you've got a lot of

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Speaker 1: different groups you have to work with and interests that

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Speaker 1: you have to balance. I imagine we work with a

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Speaker 1: lot of people and a lot of interests, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's an important piece to remember that most

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Speaker 1: people see natural resources in wildlife through the lens of

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Speaker 1: public land, not through perhaps other experiences. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty important to get it right and also to provide

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Speaker 1: an experience that's both high quality and a little bit educational,

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Speaker 1: so folks come to understand what it takes to produce

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Speaker 1: outstanding conservation and sustainable wise use. Yeah. So, so weird Hunt.

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Speaker 1: This podcast is really focused on white tailed deer hunting.

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Speaker 1: So from the deer hunting side of things in Michigan,

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Speaker 1: what what do you do? Related to deer? It's more

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Speaker 1: like what don't we do? It's related to deer. They

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Speaker 1: Wild Act Division is very focused on on on deer management.

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Speaker 1: This state has oh golly close to seven hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: deer hunters um and they're spread out across the state. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It is uh the slowest shrinking part of hunting in

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Speaker 1: the state. You know, we lose about two of our

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Speaker 1: deer hunters on an annual basis. We've lost of our

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Speaker 1: small game hunters in the last twelve years. The average

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Speaker 1: Michigan hunter only hunts deer. They don't hunt it as

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Speaker 1: hard as I like him to. It's about four days

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Speaker 1: a year and that includes scouting, and they want to

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Speaker 1: shoot about two point two deer. So what do we do. Actually,

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Speaker 1: we spend an awful lot of time doing management in

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Speaker 1: the Up. The Up, of course, is a place of challenges.

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Speaker 1: There's hard winters, you know, three inches of snow on

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Speaker 1: the west side. Uh. And so we are very engaged

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Speaker 1: in making sure that deer have critical winning habitat that

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Speaker 1: they can migrate into, and not just on state length.

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Speaker 1: So the state control about of those critical habitats. Private

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Speaker 1: lands are about so In fact, we've been working through

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Speaker 1: an advisory group that's ourselves, commercial forest properties, non industrial

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Speaker 1: forest properties, tribal entities and others to try to get

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Speaker 1: more and better conservation on those lands in the northern

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Speaker 1: Lower Peninsula. Of course, we do all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: for for deer, and it turns out for other species

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Speaker 1: that have similar requirements. Uh. Grouse and woodcock for example,

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Speaker 1: come to mind. Across southern Michigan, the nutritional plane is

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Speaker 1: of course very high. It's more like Indiana or Ohio,

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Speaker 1: and so we probably invest a little bit less money

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Speaker 1: in in in deer habitat per se in the southern

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Speaker 1: part of the state because of the amount of agriculture

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Speaker 1: and other things going on that haven't said that though,

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Speaker 1: we are very interested, for example, and working with private

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Speaker 1: landowners and developing co ops. In fact, we partnered with

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Speaker 1: q d m A Peasants for ever. At Michigan United

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Speaker 1: Conservation Clubs, we have a co op coordinator where we're

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Speaker 1: trying to work across the topics of deer and pheasants

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Speaker 1: because it turns out there are things you can do

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Speaker 1: for both and try to put together private lands, perhaps

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Speaker 1: close to some of our state game areas, to improve opportunities.

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Speaker 1: Remembering that I told you a little bit about our hunters.

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Speaker 1: Part I didn't tell yet was that close of our

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Speaker 1: hunters in this state hunt only or primarily on private land,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of that hunting, of course, happens in

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Speaker 1: southern Michigan. Yeah. We actually had Anna, that co op

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Speaker 1: specialist on the podcast two weeks ago, so she got

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Speaker 1: to tell us all about what she was doing and

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Speaker 1: what you guys are working on and in some of

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Speaker 1: these parts of the state, and that was pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, she's okay, Yeah, yeah, I agree. Um, so

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that the challenges up in the northern Lower

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Speaker 1: Peninsula and the up and I know there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of things going on there, and know there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of thing as we've probably talked to you about just

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Speaker 1: working with all these different groups of hunters and setting

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Speaker 1: you know, the right expectations and all the different things

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Speaker 1: that go into managing the states deer heard. But the

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Speaker 1: thing I think that's top of mind for me and

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Speaker 1: people definitely within the state of Michigan, but also in

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Speaker 1: states all over the country is the topic of chronic

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Speaker 1: wasting disease c w D, especially given the news last

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Speaker 1: week that the first case in a free ranging wild

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Speaker 1: deer in Michigan was found. So I was just gonna

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Speaker 1: say so, so, given that is, you know, top of

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Speaker 1: mind for for many of us, I was hoping to

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Speaker 1: pick your brain a little bit about that, Given the

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Speaker 1: fact that you're kind of inside and dealing with this

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Speaker 1: right now, could you kind of help us set the

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Speaker 1: playing field for everyone that maybe doesn't understand what actually

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Speaker 1: was announced last week, or there's lots of rumors going

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Speaker 1: around to can you just give us the basics of

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Speaker 1: what was discovered, how it was discovered, and uh, and

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Speaker 1: where things stand today in regards to this c w

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Speaker 1: D incident in Michigan. Yeah, I can. I'll aren't. By

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Speaker 1: just setting the table for folks, I'm guessing there's somebody

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Speaker 1: out there that hunts deer that doesn't know what c

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Speaker 1: w D is. So, just to begin that conversation, CWD

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Speaker 1: is a corrupted protein. You can think of it a

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Speaker 1: whole lot more like radioactive waste than you can like

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Speaker 1: a disease. It can be transmitted between animals, and if

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Speaker 1: soil is contaminated with feces or with urine, the soil

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Speaker 1: becomes infective. In fact, soil is more effective than animal

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Speaker 1: to animal transmission, particularly when there's a lot of clay

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Speaker 1: in the soil. As well, the preon can be translocated

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Speaker 1: into plants, meaning taken up into plants, and plants are

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Speaker 1: perfectly competent vector to move preons around in the environment

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Speaker 1: make deer sick. Preons cannot be destroyed by coal. They

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Speaker 1: cannot be destroyed by heat, except that unbelievably high temperatures.

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Speaker 1: They cannot be destroyed by disinvectants. They cannot be destroyed

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Speaker 1: by bleach. When we talk about human t SC, these

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Speaker 1: transmissible sponge reform and cephalopathies, and somebody's doing, say, a

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Speaker 1: medical procedure on a human and in a human t SC,

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Speaker 1: they throw away the surgical equipment at the end of

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Speaker 1: the procedure because there is no way to sterilize it afterwards.

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Speaker 1: So we are dealing with a very persistent phenomenon. UH.

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Speaker 1: CWD was first described in nineteen sixty seven in Fort Collins,

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Speaker 1: Colorado and mule there and since then it's spread across

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Speaker 1: the country. It's now present in about twenty two or

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Speaker 1: twenty three states and two Canadian provinces. Michigan fortunately, as

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Speaker 1: the most recent example. We picked up a deer in Haslet, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: which is a suburban community near Lansing, UH in the

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Speaker 1: middle of April. We did some testine on that deer

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Speaker 1: and it came up CWD positive. We send it along

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Speaker 1: to the National Veterinary Services Laboratory in Ames, Iowa. They

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Speaker 1: confirmed are our diagnosis of a CWD positive deer. And

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Speaker 1: so now we are involved in what I will call

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Speaker 1: extremely active surveillance. And what that means is anything in

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Speaker 1: the in the three counties nearest to where this deer

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Speaker 1: was found, any any hunter there. There is no baiting

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Speaker 1: and feeding in any of those counties. We will treat

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Speaker 1: those kinds of issues very severely. No deer can be

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Speaker 1: moved outside of those three counties because I don't want

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Speaker 1: CWD moved out. It turns out carcasses are a primary

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Speaker 1: vector for the disease. Not only is it moved in

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Speaker 1: live deer, it's moved in dead deer uh and it's

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Speaker 1: moving dead deer parts. It's a big deal for us.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to try to contain it. Those three

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Speaker 1: counties in their Ingham, Shiawassee, and Clinton. No baiting or

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Speaker 1: feeding closer to the index site. That is to say,

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Speaker 1: the nine townships closest to this place. We are picking

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Speaker 1: up every road kill. We are asking, actually requiring every

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Speaker 1: single deer that hunters picked up to be taken to

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Speaker 1: a checks nations so that we can take samples. What

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Speaker 1: that means that codes or take their heads. Will allow

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Speaker 1: folks to have skull caps, hides uh and meat if

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Speaker 1: they if they want them. We will conduct tests on

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Speaker 1: that beat and get back to folks within two to

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Speaker 1: three days so they know whether they have a positive

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Speaker 1: or or or or a negative deer within two miles

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Speaker 1: we're engaging as well in active sharpshooting of deer. We

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Speaker 1: will take as many deer as we can find. There

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Speaker 1: is no possibility, of course, of wiping out deer in

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Speaker 1: an area. And furthermore, it would make any difference. I've

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Speaker 1: just described how c w D in a contaminated environment

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Speaker 1: is as effective as an animal. So you can clear

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Speaker 1: animals out of a c w D area, other animals

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Speaker 1: come in, they will acquire an express the disease. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, as far as we know, the preon

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Speaker 1: is never uh taken out of the environment. Has to

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Speaker 1: be covered up, it has to be buried, Something has

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Speaker 1: to happen to it to physically present prevent contact, otherwise

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Speaker 1: it will continue to be there for decades. What do

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Speaker 1: we end participate if CWD is established And that's the

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Speaker 1: really scary part in all of this, because no state

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Speaker 1: has been able to control established CWD. That's not in

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Speaker 1: the cards. What would be in the cards is slowing

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Speaker 1: the spread of the disease across the state. What we

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Speaker 1: suspect will occur based on the models and what we're

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Speaker 1: now seeing in Colorado and Wyoming, is an overall reduction

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Speaker 1: in the hurt population size, most of the models suggest

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Speaker 1: that that reduction could be upwards, and most of that

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Speaker 1: reduction will be concentrated in the older age classes and

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Speaker 1: especially in futs. This, of course, is real troubling to

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Speaker 1: guys that are interested in quality deer management. Three or

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Speaker 1: four decades from now, that may be a very quaint

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Speaker 1: and extremely unachievable idea in many states where there's a

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Speaker 1: cw D established in the free range and populations. What

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Speaker 1: I expect will happen in southern Michigan is because we

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Speaker 1: have a very high a reproductive rate. Fawns actually are

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Speaker 1: often have you know, fawns in the same year. We

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Speaker 1: won't see a huge drop or it will be very

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Speaker 1: slow over time. The bigger deal in southern Michigan is

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Speaker 1: going to be um the change in the age structure

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Speaker 1: in the population. As it moves north into the state.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we'll probably see changes in population side and

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Speaker 1: age structure. So right now, again, what we're trying to

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Speaker 1: do is understand if this is established, in which case

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Speaker 1: we have to come up with containment strategies that essentially

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Speaker 1: slow the spread of the disease. We won't eradicate, it

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Speaker 1: will slow the spread if it's not established and we

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Speaker 1: can come to that conclusion. Well, we've dodged a bullet

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Speaker 1: and that's that's uh, that's sort of what we're hoping for.

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Speaker 1: I could mention that in addition, in those three counties,

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Speaker 1: all of the licenses will be discounted. There will be

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Speaker 1: no limit basically on the number of ant litists licenses

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Speaker 1: that an individual hunter can purchase, and within the nine

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Speaker 1: townships closest to the index case disease control permits will

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Speaker 1: be freely available for free to anyone that has five

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Speaker 1: acres of land or more to take as many deer

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Speaker 1: as they possibly can or choose to do, starting yesterday,

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Speaker 1: literally yesterday. Wow. So I just want to make sure

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Speaker 1: I understand a couple of things. Um. First off, is

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Speaker 1: it accurately you said that there will be sharpshooting starting

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Speaker 1: like currently within two miles of that area, to start

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Speaker 1: reducing the deer head right there and now? Is that

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Speaker 1: true starting today? And so what's what's the goal? You know,

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Speaker 1: you said you can't possibly eliminate the deer herd, but

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Speaker 1: it sounds like the the immediate goal is to try

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Speaker 1: to reduce the number of deer in that general area

402
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 1: of contamination right now, so as to potentially isolate anything

403
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Speaker 1: that's infected and so essentially eliminating or clearing as many

404
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Speaker 1: of the deer out of the area as possible. Now,

405
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: that's that's what's happening. Well, that's that's sort of true,

406
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Speaker 1: but not really. It turns out the spread of CWD

407
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Speaker 1: is at a density dependent disease because again it contaminates

408
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Speaker 1: the environment indefinitely as well. So what we're really trying

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Speaker 1: to do at this point is understand what we're looking at.

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Speaker 1: Are we looking at an individual isolated case um c

411
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Speaker 1: w D does not spontaneously occur. If you look at

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Speaker 1: other of these ts c s, these transmissible sponge aform

413
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Speaker 1: and cephalopathies, whether it's scrape and sheep b sc and

414
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Speaker 1: cattle mad cow disease or yakum krutz Felt's variants in humans,

415
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Speaker 1: those diseases actually do tend to show some variance in

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Speaker 1: some of the immune what we call immunehistic chemistry. When

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00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: we look at at evidence of the pre end that

418
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Speaker 1: has never been the case for CWD. It is always

419
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Speaker 1: exactly the same thing. So this disease came to this

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Speaker 1: location in some fashion. It could have come in alive dear,

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Speaker 1: it could have come in an infected carcass that was

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Speaker 1: illegally transported across state lines. It could have come frankly

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Speaker 1: and contaminated urine. Bow hunters, of course use urine as

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Speaker 1: an attracting in the fall, and some of that year

425
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Speaker 1: in probably a CWD positive. And since you're spreading the

426
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Speaker 1: year and you know, I just told you it's it's

427
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: effective on the ground, perhaps more so than an animal

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Speaker 1: to animal transmission. So we're actively trying to understand what

429
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: we're looking at an isolated case or not. We've got

430
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: to get as many samples as we can to understand that.

431
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: To put it in context, we have bovine tuberculosis established

432
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: in the deer herd in the northeast Lower Peninsula, and

433
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: this year the rate was between one to two that's

434
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: one to two deer per hundred. So actually it's pretty

435
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: uncommon to run across the TV positive deer despite the

436
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: fact that they infect cattle herbs and it's almost impossible

437
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: to eradicate. Although frankly, I would much rather deal with

438
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: TP or e h D or any number of other

439
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: diseases because they just kill animals and it's over with.

440
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: You know, dead animals are dead. Animals. That is not

441
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: true for CWD. Dead animals are infective, live animals are infective,

442
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: and the environment in which those carcasses melt down or

443
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: which live animals p on, all of those places are

444
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: effective almost indefinitely. So you know the situation you described

445
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago about you know, if this is

446
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: a case where it's not isolated, if it's established. You

447
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: mentioned the fact that this could I think you had

448
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: said potentially in the future reduced the dear herb by

449
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: and it could significantly impact the age structure affecting you know,

450
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: older age class animals UM. You know, when I look

451
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: at or when I hear about or read about CDOD

452
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: in other states like Wisconsin, in places it sounds like

453
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: it hasn't had that impact, at least I don't think

454
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: it's had the impact because of the fact that the

455
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: state has taken extreme measures to reduce the population themselves

456
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: in those areas. Is that is that accurate or other

457
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: places in the country that are actually seeing those types

458
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: of UM impacts naturally coming from the disease. The Front

459
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: Range in Colorado and southeastern Wyoming is now seeing those

460
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: kinds of population reduction impacts. We don't know what's going

461
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: to happen in Wisconsin. Although the county is closest to

462
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: where the disease were identified, I believe they're approaching infection

463
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: rates in their buck population, and I you know, we

464
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: don't know what the what the outcome will be in Wisconsin.

465
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: It's important to put into this conversation that there's absolutely

466
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: no evidence that CWD can species jump, that it can

467
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: affect humans. In fact, all we know about CWD is

468
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: that it's very specific for mule deer, whitetailed deer, elk,

469
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: and moose. Uh So, so right now we're beginning to

470
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: see this That real tragedy in this isn't that it's

471
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: a disease that anyone hunting today is likely to see

472
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: huge measurable impacts. Some probably not if it's established disease.

473
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: What this disease really is is a legacy we're putting

474
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: on our grand shoulder. It took nineteen sixty seven two now,

475
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: which is what fifty years for this disease to begin

476
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: to show population level effects in Colorado. So what we're

477
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: talking about is a disease that will begin if if

478
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: it's established, and spreads as the models predict to become

479
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: manifest in Michigan about so this is this is essentially

480
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: a legacy that we give to our not our children,

481
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: but our children's children will all be dead by the

482
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: time these things happen. What I want to know is

483
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: now that the state of Michigan has a plan in

484
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: place and how they're gonna how they're going to, you know,

485
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: try to control this what is And I want to

486
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: start off with the worst case scenario and then end

487
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: with the best case scenario. What what what does that

488
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: look like? Well, the worst case scenarios that we find

489
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: additional animals, we will do exactly what we have done

490
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: with this case. Where we find another animal, will set

491
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: up UH to two mile intense surveillance zone, ten mile

492
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 1: enhanced surveillance zone, and and a bating ban for any

493
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: county that it's touched by that ten mile UH circle.

494
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: So it'll probably expand. The index case right now is

495
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: eleven and a half miles I believe from Eaton County

496
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: eleven point one miles from Livingston County. Wouldn't take much,

497
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, a half mile one way or the other

498
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: to begin to expand. What that expansion means is additional

499
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: restrictions on baiting and feeding restrictions on the movement of

500
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 1: meat and carcasses, um changes in license structure, changes uh

501
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: the availability of disease control permits. And you know something

502
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: that's part of this. First off, there a license you know,

503
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 1: and wherever CWD appears that it produces substantial de clients

504
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: and license purchasing behavior. That's a concern. But even more

505
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: for recognized that deer hunting in the state of Michigan

506
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: is a two point three billion dollar business at four

507
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: point billion dollars something billion dollar business when it comes

508
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: to all forms of hunting fishing. This is a big

509
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: deal to small retailers. It's a big deal to farmers.

510
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: A number of farmers in central Michigan who see their

511
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: profit every year in terms of their hunting leases. That's

512
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: a big deal if they can't get those of those

513
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: lease dollars. I personally know very large producers in the

514
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: Fowlerville region who often see the majority of their profit

515
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: every year in terms of their hunt leases rather than

516
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: in terms of profits that they make on their crops.

517
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: As well, there are the legacy consequences to our kids

518
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: and the potential overall threat to the perception of Michigan

519
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: is a tourist destination Michigan, and the tourist industry in

520
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: the state is a twenty two point three billion dollar industry,

521
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: and it's built on the backbone of wildlife, fisheries and

522
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: other forms of outdoor recreation and a big deal. Is

523
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: there Is there a potential and I'm talking about worst

524
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: case scenario and I know and just because I watch

525
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: a lot of movies, is there a chance where c

526
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: w D becomes kind of like an extinction level event? No. No,

527
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: It's a very slow moving disease. So animals are infected

528
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: and they can survive for many years before they even

529
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: begin to express the disease. It's the disease. Ultimately, the

530
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: neurological consequences that you see in a c w D

531
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: deer take many years to manifest, and it's because of

532
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: the accumulation of these corrupted proteins of preons in their brains,

533
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: which means that you take three or four or five years.

534
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: This particular animal that we saw, we have no idea

535
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: when she was infected, but it was a six year

536
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: old though with twin buck fon, she could have been

537
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: affected for a couple of years before before she began

538
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: to act strangely, so again that's part of it. By

539
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: the way, the animal within about four to five I think,

540
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: sometime less than a year after infections begins to actually

541
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: uh distribute preons and urine specs very heavily. In fact,

542
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: probably healthy looking animals. There's some evidences who suggests that

543
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: they are are more likely to spread preons in the environment,

544
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: and the ones that are that are that are going

545
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: downhill fast. When the disease becomes manifest, it becomes a

546
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: very short progression from that animal looks to sick to

547
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: that animal is dead. So if that's if that's the

548
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: case where these animals can be infected and in you know,

549
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: releasing the pre preon um for a long period of time,

550
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: is it even realistically possible that this is the only

551
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: deer infect in this area, If this deer has likely

552
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: been infected and spreading some level of contamination round, is

553
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: that even an optimistic or a realistic potential case. It's possible.

554
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: Just recently or a couple of years ago New York

555
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: she had too positive deer. Uh. They I believe that

556
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: they may have traced that those both of those deer

557
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: to a taxidermy operation that was was processing CWD positive

558
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: deer from out of state. They were able to kill

559
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: those two deer and they haven't seen another case of

560
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: CWD since. Likewise, Minnesota had a few cases in free

561
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: ranging geer. They were very aggressive in their response and

562
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: they have yet to detect anymore. You know, remember that

563
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: Michigan eight years ago had a CWD positive dough in

564
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: a high fence operation of privately owned servet operation in Kink,

565
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: which we think we worked closely with the industry and

566
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: the industry is very very interested in the the health

567
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: of their animals and the risk that they pers in.

568
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: That one animal was all we ever saw that. I guarantee,

569
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: I have no idea of that animal did not drop

570
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: from the heavens c W depositive there. There must have

571
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: been some other connection there. But again we've never seen

572
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: anything else. This one animal eight years ago and they

573
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: were done. So maybe we're lucky again, it's entirely it's possible.

574
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: It's within the realm of possibility that we'll be lucky.

575
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: And this is the only animal perhaps that had contact

576
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,479
Speaker 1: with some contamination in someplace or who knows what. Uh

577
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: and uh, this is the only animal. Yeah, wow, I

578
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: think Uh, I guess we all hope that that's the case,

579
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: because I think the worst case scenario that you painted

580
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: there is a scary proposition for all of us and

581
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: future generations. And I know a lot of other people

582
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: in states where c w c w D has been

583
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: popping up, there are those concerns. UM. Now, something you

584
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: mentioned just a second ago, that the incident eight years

585
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: ago with a captive deer herd, UM, that one deer

586
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: that was found to be infected there. What what do

587
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: you believe or how do you feel about the captive

588
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: deer industry and the risks that it poses to our

589
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: wild deer herd. I know there's been a lot of

590
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: debate across a number of other states UM about this

591
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: very thing, where people are concerned about the idea of

592
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: the captive deer industry either growing or being deregulated in

593
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: their states because of that potential c w D risk.

594
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: And I was just at the North American Deer Summit

595
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago where there's a very large discussion

596
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: on this very topic with representatives from the captive deer

597
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 1: industry and you know, other people from the free range

598
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: hunting industry and community UM and a lot of conflicting

599
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: opinions and beliefs on that, and and some people saying, well,

600
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: the risk of CWD is overblown, while the hunters are,

601
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: you know, very concerned about it. Where do you where

602
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: do you stand on that? Is that something you're concerned about?

603
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: The increase in the captive deer herd captive deer industry

604
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: across the state and how it might impact our our

605
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: wild herds. Well, actually, we have fewer heart fense operations

606
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: capital privately owned servet operations than we had eight years ago.

607
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: They are very closely regulated. Occasionally their operations they're out

608
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: of compliance, and those those operations are dealt with. The

609
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: vast majority of folks that are in that business are

610
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: very concerned with the health of their animals and also

611
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: the potential impacts on wildlife. I'm not going to go into,

612
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, the ethics of the morality of one thing

613
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: or another, I will say, and this is interesting if

614
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: you go and look at, uh, the sort of the

615
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: incidents of c w D across the United States, where

616
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: it occurs, in where it doesn't, whether it's in pre

617
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: ranging and captive, whether it's in captive only or in

618
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: free ranging only. The data are not as compelling as

619
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: some might want you to believe, which is to say,

620
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: about fifty percent of the time, it seems to have

621
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: perhaps an exus with captive operations about fifty percent of

622
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: the time, it does not, so one to easily make

623
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: the argument that it's free ranging deer that has that

624
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: infected captive deer as the other way around. And remember

625
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: the genesis of the problem most likely was in a

626
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: in a captive mule deer pen where they've been holding

627
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 1: sheet positive for scrape at Colorado State University in nineteen seven.

628
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: They's had nothing to do with the high fence. So

629
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: the captives servit industry initially, if anything, they're more concerned

630
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: with the health of their animals than perhaps some of

631
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: our hunters. Just sort of food for thought there, because

632
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 1: I know, for example, we get a lot to guys

633
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: that are perfectly willing to beat feed even they know

634
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: it's to legal. The vast lots of guys I know

635
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: in Kent County we had less than compliance with mandatory

636
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: head check um and our compliance with the with the

637
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 1: captive servant industry is way higher than that. So it's

638
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: it's an interesting discussion if you take the ethics and

639
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: the morality and set them aside. You know, I don't

640
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: hunt high fence operations. I'm not interested in doing that.

641
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: On the other hand, if you talk about bio security

642
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: and and and trying to do the right thing around

643
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: disease concerns, I'm I'm very convinced that the captive servit

644
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,919
Speaker 1: industry in the state of Michigan is doing an excellent job.

645
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: And uh, we have a little work to do with

646
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: our hunting communion. What's the current punishment on not obeying

647
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: the rule set forth for this? Uh, this new plan,

648
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: it's pretty trivial and the likelihood of getting caught is small.

649
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: Is that because the budget for for follow through is low?

650
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: Oh we couldn't, you know. Ultimately, as with most wildlife

651
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: related crime, we depend on the public to do the

652
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: right thing. Now, we have more conservation officers in the

653
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: field and we've had in a long long time, and

654
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: it's still not more than one officer per county. One

655
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: officer per county has not going to catch a lot

656
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: of guys doing bad things if they're even marginally dis

657
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 1: ead about what they do. We depend on people doing

658
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: the right thing because it is the right thing to do,

659
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: because they want to be conservationists because they do care

660
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: about their kids, they do care about the legacy of

661
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: the sport, and ultimately, if people don't, we can't stop them.

662
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: There isn't you know, that's that's you know, it's it's

663
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: not a matter of crime and punishment and regulation. CEOs

664
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: will look for guys and educate folks and try to

665
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: catch the bad guys, but ultimately this is about people

666
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: doing the right thing, reporting people that are illegally dumping carcasses,

667
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: thinking about things when they bade in fee, not trying

668
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: to get around the law and say there's, oh, I

669
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: don't know, feeding birds when it's clear as a heart

670
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: attack what they're actually up to. That's what we need.

671
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: We need people doing the right thing for the right

672
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: reasons and not because they're afraid that law enforcement will

673
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: sneak up behind them and catch them when they're not looking. Yeah. Well, well,

674
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: I hope that you know, to everyone listening who's in

675
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: the state of mission, especially those who might be in

676
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: this area affected by this specific incident, um, I do

677
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: hope that there's a much higher participation rate in these

678
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: guidelines or these you know, restrictions or guidelines that you

679
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: guys are putting forth and how people need to be

680
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: checking these deer in and notifying you guys about road killing,

681
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: all these different things because this kind of UM participation

682
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: from the citizenship and from the hunters, like you said,

683
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: it's very important. It's the right thing to do UM

684
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: for people that want to get more information about this

685
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: plan in Michigan. Is that available on the D on

686
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: our website or somewhere easily that we can find that. Oh, absolutely,

687
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: it's on the front page. You know, there are all

688
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: kinds of links to our c w D plan as

689
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: well as the steps that we're taking immediately to move forward.

690
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: And we also, you know, we've we've done a little

691
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: work since uh the case in two thousand seven. I

692
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: guess it was where we have looked at at the

693
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: relative risk of things. So for example, at that time,

694
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: we're invading throughout the Lower Peninsula again, this time we're

695
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: banning baiting and feeding in three counties. It makes a

696
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: lot of sense, you know, from my point of view,

697
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: just to be perfectly clear, baiting and feeding are bad ideas.

698
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 1: They have been bad ideas, they will be bad ideas.

699
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: They are bad ideas. Now. It's a little like coming

700
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 1: to me, and I'm your physician. You say I smoked

701
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: unfiltered cigarettes. Should I do? Then I say no? So

702
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: you say, well, what if I smoked filtered cigarette? The

703
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: answers still no. What if I just smoked five cigarettes?

704
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: Bad idea? Don't do that. Haven't said it. It's an

705
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: ingrained part of our culture and I'm not going to

706
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: change that. And uh and and that's fine. But what

707
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: we put into places, what we believe are entirely appropriate

708
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: regulations that we really really need people to follow. No

709
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: biding and feeding in three counties turned every one of

710
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: those heads, and otherwise we aren't going to know what

711
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: we're looking at. And that's important. It's really important. If

712
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: we act aggressively now and and maybe they're just one

713
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: or two deer, or maybe just one deer, and we

714
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: get them, maybe we dodged the bullet. Maybe we don't

715
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: have this problem. If guys choose not to check kids,

716
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: choose to move carcasses out of the zone, choose to

717
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: go ahead and bait and feed as they may have

718
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: done in the past, we're gonna lose this. We need

719
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: everybody's help to do the right thing for the right reasons,

720
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 1: because it is important and it does matter if they're

721
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: willing to turn in a poacher and feel pretty good

722
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: about that. These other things that I'm talking about are

723
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: much more important than catching a guy that cheats at

724
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: twelve point out of season. That's just bad form. Frankly,

725
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: that's that's just bad form. It has no biological impact.

726
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: What we're talking about now that have lasting biological impacts

727
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: that are entirely irreversible. So folks need to really I

728
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: hope they stand up and and work with us on

729
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: some of these issues. Yeah. Well, well, I'm glad that

730
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: you're here and able to communicate this because I think

731
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,800
Speaker 1: even though there's stuff being written out there now, there's

732
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: a lot of misinformation and there's a lot of he

733
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: should he's as she said, And I think it's great

734
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: to hear directly from you, someone who's working right on

735
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: this case too, to be able to really get that

736
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: call to action. We'll be sure to to make sure

737
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: to inform people and keep people, um, keep people honest

738
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: about that. So it sounds like it sounds like you know,

739
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: right now, people in that core area, the dear population

740
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: is going to be significantly reduced in the short term,

741
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: is probably gonna hurt for those people. But if they

742
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: do the right thing, and they they and they follow

743
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: these actions, that we might be able to save this

744
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: thing for the larger heard biologically across the state. And

745
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: it's important to do that. So, Dan, do you have

746
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: any other questions for um for us about c w

747
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 1: D before we move on to some more fun topics. Yeah,

748
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: and this is kind of like the science behind it.

749
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 1: Um Currently, there's no cure for this this pre on. Correct,

750
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: that's correct? Now? Is there any research or genetic testing

751
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 1: ing or or something that's in place to potentially find

752
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: a way to um rid the preon from nature? Or

753
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: I guess what is prions place in nature? Well, prions,

754
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: of course are are are natural. You've got them, I've

755
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: got them, everybody's got them as far as I know.

756
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: But these are these are preons that have been corrupted

757
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: in terms of their structure and essentially what they do

758
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 1: is as attached and corrupt other proteins and in the

759
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: central nervous system. There's an abundance of work going on

760
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: in a variety of laboratories looking at ways to either

761
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: stop or reverse the effects of preons, you know, in

762
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: in in in various disease states, and that includes in

763
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: in deer um. There really isn't a lot of promise

764
00:43:55,040 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: there at the present time. We don't complete the understand

765
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: how they do what they do. Uh. All we know

766
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: is their overall effects. You can think of our knowledge

767
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: of pres now is about what our knowledge of viruses

768
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: was about. I I don't know ninety We have a

769
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: long way to go before we have a good, a

770
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: good uh medically useful understanding of how to how to

771
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: manage preons. But that work continues and there's a lot

772
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: of emphasis on it to uh to see what we

773
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 1: what might be done, and then of course to find

774
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: if it's possible to find some sort of the delivery

775
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: strategy that we could use to work with wild populations.

776
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: At present, however, there is no you know, the disease

777
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: is invariably fatal. It does appear that there's some genetic

778
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: variation in dear so that some dear take longer to

779
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: die than others. They all die, but some take a

780
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 1: little longer than others. Uh. So we have a long

781
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: way to go before we can stay with any cop

782
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: evidence that we are headed in the right direction towards

783
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: um project cure. I guess, HM, well, I certainly hope

784
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: you know, given all that that, that this is going

785
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: to be an isolated incident, because it doesn't sound like

786
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of bright things on the horizon

787
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: when it comes to that. Um. So, I guess continuing

788
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: on this fun note here, shifting to another disease that

789
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: I know you had to deal with in Michigan, Hunters

790
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: and many others across the Midwest had to deal with

791
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: relatively recently, UM, hemorrhagic disease. We had a huge outbreak

792
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: in two thousand twelve and two thousand seven as well

793
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: across many states in the Midwest. And I know that

794
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: you personally, um, you know, working in Michigan felt those effects.

795
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure in mid Michigan and across a lot of

796
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: the counties where many of our listeners hunt. Um, we

797
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: got just hammered with h D. Um. Can you give

798
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: us a brief primer kind of like you did for

799
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: c w D a few minutes ago, Can you give

800
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: us a brief primer on hemorrhagic disease and how that

801
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: affects white tails? And then uh, I think me and

802
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: Dan had a few more questions about you know what

803
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: that means for hunters and what that means moving forward.

804
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: Before we get into the topic of e h D,

805
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: we need to pause briefly for a word from our

806
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: friends at Sick of Gear, who support this podcast. Now.

807
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: Last week on the show, we introduced you to Sick

808
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: of white Tail product category leader Dennis Zuck, and this

809
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: week we're going to start grilling in that said, as

810
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: some of you know, sick as brand new revamped line

811
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: of white Tail Gear launched on June one. So a

812
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: question for Dennis today is this, who is the new

813
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: line of white Tail Gear four? You know, honestly, so Mark,

814
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: you know, the namesake of our premium line kind of

815
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: defines it. And we built this for the fanatic, you know,

816
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: we built it for the guy who um is absolutely

817
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 1: looking for an advantage. He's absolutely spending just countless time

818
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: in the woods, whether it's every morning and every evening,

819
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: you know, before and after work or whatever it might be.

820
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: But the guy who has just driven to find that

821
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: animal or or be out there as often as he

822
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: can know, we know that. You know when you look

823
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: at the amount of of design and make and you

824
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: know the cost frankly that goes into a product like that.

825
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: You know, if you hunt one week or two weeks

826
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: a year, it may not be worth its you and

827
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: that's that's okay. But you know, if you're the guy

828
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: who spends a lot of time out there, you know

829
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: what's what's comfortable worth you for all those countless hours

830
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: you spend hanging from trade. That's who we voted for.

831
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: So there you have it. Sick of gears completely new

832
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: line of white tail gear for two fifteen is for

833
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 1: the fanatics, the obsessed, the addicts. It's not like anyone

834
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: you know. Now back to our conversation with Russ and

835
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: his overview of e h D sure uh. E h

836
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: D Actually, interestingly enough, it's it's it's basically a southeastern

837
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,720
Speaker 1: United States disease. That's what's it's most prevalent, most common.

838
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: But it was first identified or characterized in Michigan in

839
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five. We had an outbreak in fifty five.

840
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: We had an outbreak or two in the sixties, and

841
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: maybe one or two in the seventies. In the last decade,

842
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: we've had an outbreak every year some place. There are

843
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: six or seven variants of the virus that produces e

844
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: h D UH, and they depend on a small biting

845
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: fly to vector from one animal to another. So you know,

846
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: the fly bites a deer with the h D that

847
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: picks up the virus, goes around bites some other deer

848
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: and transmits the disease. The fly life very slow moving

849
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: water or stagnant water and mud. So several years ago,

850
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: two years ago, when we and others across the country,

851
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: I think it's about from Utah all the way to

852
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: the east coast had outbreaks a VHD. We were looking

853
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: at for the perfect storm. We had a hot summer

854
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: as you recall, or drought conditions. Deer of course would

855
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: prefer to drink muddy water the clear water, so they

856
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: were going into these areas that were full of these

857
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: midges and getting literally thousands of doses of e h D.

858
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: So it had a significant impact on deer. Unfortunately, it's

859
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: a really hard h disease to build regulations around because

860
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: the effects are very local, but deer are dying right

861
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: along those water courses or even some portions of water courses.

862
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: For example, on our uh Uskegon game area, where the

863
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: river was flowing a little faster and had a sandy bottom,

864
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: we got zero loss or almost no loss. When the

865
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: river slowed down in the bottom turn money deer were

866
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: dying right and left. How do you how do you

867
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: develop a regulation for that? Or on the Maple River

868
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: in just north of Lansing, here deer we're dying within

869
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: a mile or so of the river, But if you

870
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: backed up a couple of miles there, we're doing fine.

871
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: So it's hard to sort of work that through. The

872
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: bright note is that, of course last year was a

873
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: nothing year when it came to h D. And I

874
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: anticipate that you know, um, we probably will have a

875
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 1: couple of other with any lucks of additional years without

876
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: another e h D die off. As I said, there

877
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 1: are about seven variants to this disease, and it's endemic

878
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: in Michigan, And so you know, we anticipate under the

879
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: right environmental conditions that you that you could see periodic

880
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: dieofs occurred, just like to do in other parts of

881
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: the country. Once dear, and we're sort of at the

882
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: northern fringes of the disease. You know, we've had it

883
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: here for sixty years. In the southeast, they've had it

884
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: forever longer than sixty years. Eventually, deer here exposed to

885
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: a lot of the various variants and and what you

886
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: begin to see is a little preferred immunity. So while

887
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: the Southeast has die offs been much less dramatic than

888
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: they would be, for example, in a night population like

889
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: deer in southern Michigan. So we'll continue to see e

890
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: h D outbreaks into the future, they probably will be

891
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: less uh certainly less uh large than there were, you know,

892
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, because again we've had these

893
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: outbreaks every year for the last decade. It's just that

894
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: there was that one loadable one a couple of years ago.

895
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: E h D does not transmit to other species. Occasionally,

896
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: because the virus is very light blue tongue. You can

897
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: see it in cattle if they get enormous amounts of

898
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: rates in them. You can actually make a causid, but

899
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: it really takes in doing. This is a deer disease,

900
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: not a not a livestock disease. It is infected by livestock.

901
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: I know some folks that we're in co ops were

902
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: blaming some of their farmer friends were moving livestock and

903
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: moving disease, and as it turns out, that's just patently untrue.

904
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: They would just wanting to be mad at somebody, and

905
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: they decided to be mad at a farmer as opposed

906
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: to just being mad at nature. You know, there wasn't

907
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: any cause for that. The farming community had anything to

908
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,959
Speaker 1: do with UM in terms of control strategies, and there's

909
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: not a lot out there. I mean, you could, I

910
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,919
Speaker 1: guess if you wanted to fog the world, you could

911
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: just like used to you know, back in the fifties

912
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: and sixties fogg for mosquitoes. You can fog from midges,

913
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: but a lot of really good reasons not to do that.

914
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: I probably don't have to tell you what they are,

915
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: uh from from other wildlife, you know, from other species. UM.

916
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: So there aren't you really practical strategies to control. It's

917
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: just one of those things that we'll have to look

918
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: for it. On the bright side of all of this,

919
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: we have come up with and working with the Boon

920
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: and Crocket Quantitative Wildlife Lab at MSU, come up with

921
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: some distance sampling estimates, so we can give folks saying

922
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: a co Oper in other places, some tools that can

923
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: use pretty easily to understand how many deer they have

924
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: on their property. Which goes to the question of that

925
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: I get all the time, or my my biologists if

926
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: you work with the landown they'll say how many deer

927
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: do I have? And how many should I have? And

928
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to the first one, and

929
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: the second one is kind of personal choice. You know,

930
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: we've got some tools now as a function of this

931
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: where we can help people. They also asked how long

932
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: do the effects of the h D last and the

933
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: south you know, you can expect recovery in anywhere from

934
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: five to ten years. In the studies that we're doing

935
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: now along the Maple River corridor, we're seeing recovery. It

936
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: is certainly the deer numbers certainly are not back to

937
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: where they were, but we're beginning to see recovery of

938
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,959
Speaker 1: populations and it probably will take five or six years

939
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: for for numbers to build back to where they were

940
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 1: before the upbreak two years ago. So so, fur listeners,

941
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: can you describe what they should look for? What you know,

942
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: what the what the symptoms would be, the visible symptoms

943
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: would be. And then what should a hunter or land

944
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: managers what plans should they take if they discover a

945
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 1: deer infected with the HD or that has died from HD.

946
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: What should they do from that standpoint, whether it be

947
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: in relation to communicating with you guys, or from a

948
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: management standpoint of how should they change their hunting or

949
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: management strategy if there's an h D situation occurring. Well, Uh,

950
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: to answer the first question, I mean once I guess

951
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: we'll start with a started the beginning. H e H

952
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 1: D killed there isn't infected, It isn't effective to anything,

953
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: so you don't have to worry about that. It's not

954
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 1: going to you know, serve as a source for vector

955
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: to live. Deer in the area. The e H dear

956
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: D deer are appear listless because they're hemorrhaging. They're thirsty,

957
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 1: so they come to water. You'll find them dead along

958
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: watercources or in the water. Uh, because they're bleeding out

959
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: essentially internally and so they they're looking to rehydrate. Um.

960
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: You can't see some evidence there are deer that actually

961
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: recover from the h D. And you see huff lesions

962
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: in those in those dear and I believe we have

963
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: those kinds of things both on our website and in

964
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: pamphlets that we distribute that give give a pretty good

965
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: idea of what to look for that as a practical matter,

966
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: if if you find evidence of e h D killed

967
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: deer in your hunting area, since you're unlikely to see

968
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 1: the true magnitude of the effect, I suggest you funct

969
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: yourself a different place to hunt, unless, of course, you

970
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: just like hanging in a tree like a pumpy and

971
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: looking for stuff to go by. Sound advice, Sound advice. Now, Dan,

972
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: do you have any other questions about e h D

973
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: before we move away from disease? No? I think he

974
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: pretty much He pretty much covered everything that I was

975
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: interested in. Awesome. Well, I think that was a very

976
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: helpful primer on a on a topic that we never

977
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: really want to talk about, but something that's important for

978
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: people to understand, especially recently with with c w D

979
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 1: in the news and e h D being a big

980
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: thing over the past couple of years. So so thank

981
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: you for all that. Russ Um. Well, there's one last thing,

982
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: by the way, even if you I saw some bucks

983
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago that we had clearly had

984
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: had survived d h D, and the hunter said to me,

985
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: because they were looking a little bit and make ship

986
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: had nice racks to a little make sure can I

987
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: eat this? Dude? Answers, Yeah, this is not something that

988
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: bothers humans. Uh, and so it's not something to be

989
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: concerned with, unlike say tuberculosis or or c w D.

990
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: So on the topic two with c w D dear,

991
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: I've read in the past at least I believe, correct

992
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, But I had read that. You know,

993
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: the belief to this point is that, right, it cannot

994
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,919
Speaker 1: be transmit it can't hop to humans. So it's okay

995
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 1: to eat that meat, but you want to stay away

996
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: from any spinal fluids or brain fluids things like that.

997
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: Is that accurate or did would you recommend just not touching,

998
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: not eating those deer that that could be infect in

999
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: that area. I wouldn't need them. The World Health Organization

1000
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 1: U s d A and our wildlife health professional girl

1001
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: who are clear about that there's no evidence that it

1002
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: couldn't affect you um none, zip zero, no, you know,

1003
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: even individual cases. On the other hand, put that in context.

1004
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: When b SC was concerned Maccow disease was a concern

1005
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: in Britain, it took twelve and a half million exposures

1006
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: to contaminated meat to produce about two hundred cases. Twelve

1007
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: and a half million exposures to produce two hundred cases.

1008
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: How would you like to be one of the unlucky

1009
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: two hundred? I think if you have a CWD positive deer,

1010
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: nobody's that hungry if they couldn't go and either hunt

1011
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: another deer or or do something else. I would not

1012
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: feed that deer to my family. So the follow question

1013
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: that then, Um, When I was at this North American

1014
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: Deer Soon in a few weeks ago, there's a panelists

1015
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: USh and a number of different people from within the

1016
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: industry and from the veterinarian services side of things, and

1017
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: one of the main speaking points or concerns was the

1018
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: fact that you can test and you can get a

1019
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: positive test for c w D, but there is not

1020
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: a true negative. You can't actually prove that's negative. It's

1021
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: just not positive. I guess, was how they were explaining it. Um,

1022
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: So that being the case, and correct if I'm wrong,

1023
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: But would that being the case? If I go and

1024
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: if I kill a deer in mid Michigan this this

1025
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: fall and to get it tested, it doesn't come up

1026
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: as positive, but it's not absolutely negative Either's just not positive.

1027
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: Is that a deer I should feel comfortably eating? Yeah,

1028
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: you can feel very comfortable doing it. Where they might

1029
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: be going is perhaps you've got an animal was a

1030
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: sufficiently low concentration of preons that wouldn't show up on

1031
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: the multiple tests that we would do. You know, any

1032
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: time that we do this, we do a variety of

1033
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: things looking for the potential for disease that uh CWD

1034
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: is a disease of the sensual nervous system, not even

1035
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: so much the powerful nervous system. And in those cases,

1036
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's rare instances where the animal, had it lived,

1037
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: would be CWD positive, but it doesn't show up on

1038
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 1: the test. Well. As few preons that are, they're very

1039
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: likely almost exclusively in the central nervous system and almost

1040
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: exclusively in the brain. So as long as you're deboning

1041
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: the meat, not you know, running your saw through the

1042
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: spinal column and then back out into the meat, for example,

1043
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: there's the chances of actually contaminating the meat in a

1044
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: way that you could find preon is vanishingly small. Okay,

1045
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: all right, well, I think that's that is a good

1046
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: thing for for everyone to know, especially living in these

1047
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: different areas now where that's that's potential. Um So moving

1048
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: away from disease, now, we don't often get a chance

1049
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: to talk to someone in your position who's you know,

1050
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: on the other I don't want to stand on the

1051
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: other side of the table, but to some degree, hunters

1052
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: feel like we're on sepper side of the table, the

1053
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: wildlife management agencies and the hunters, and those relationships can

1054
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: sometimes be sticky. There's you know, all of if you

1055
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 1: look in the current in the news today or you

1056
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: know in the past year, there's been lots of concerns

1057
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: in a number of states with hunters um not happy

1058
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: with how they believe their agencies managing managing the deer

1059
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: herd because the deer herd is being reduced too much,

1060
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: or maybe they're not happy with one thing or other,

1061
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: and there seems to be a lot of headbutting there.

1062
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: Can you can you talk a little bit about first,

1063
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: you know, what that challenge has been like for you

1064
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: and your team in Michigan. And then second, how do

1065
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: we improve that relationship between hunters and our agency representatives. Well,

1066
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: they're they're actually there's there maybe three things to talk

1067
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 1: about here. First, it's interesting when you talk about hunter

1068
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: satisfaction because it's a it's a topic that depends very

1069
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: heavily on the amount of public land that's president of state.

1070
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: So if you look at hunter satisfaction and Pennsylvania, and

1071
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,439
Speaker 1: these are actual numbers, I had one of our guys

1072
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: looked at it, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, UM, Michigan,

1073
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania. If you the hunter satisfaction in Ohio, Indiana,

1074
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 1: in Iowa and southern Minnesota is in the sixties and seventies,

1075
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania is in the high thirties to low forties, Michigan's

1076
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: usually in the mid to high forties, and Wisconsin is

1077
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: a couple of points behind. So here's your rhetorical question.

1078
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: What is the difference between Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania and

1079
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: the rest of the states that I mentioned. The answer,

1080
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: of course, is that those three states are public land

1081
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: states and the rest of private land states. So in

1082
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: a sense, one sense, in the three states, there's somebody

1083
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: you complained to. They got a telephone number and an

1084
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: email address. Otherwise you're sort of asking a guy, do

1085
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: you think you you are a good deer manager? And

1086
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: who's gonna say, no, life suck. The point being that

1087
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: in a lot of these of these cases, folks actually

1088
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: have somebody to blame the other story along those lines

1089
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: is if you go back and look at how though

1090
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: Leopold's biography, and you look in the end notes, and

1091
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: you look at the comments and concerns and complaints that

1092
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: he got the wildlife commissioner in the late forties in Wisconsin. UM,

1093
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 1: some thing's never change because the letters that he got, Uh,

1094
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: if you set them down side by side with mine,

1095
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: the difference, the principal difference between his letters in mind

1096
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: is that his guy's had good penmanship. They are exactly

1097
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: the same issues. There are too many deer, they're too

1098
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: few deer. You're putting me out of business. They're eating normally,

1099
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: blaba blabla black exactly word for word for word. Uh,

1100
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: the same thing. So people like us, you know, they

1101
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: don't like government, and and and it's sort of it's

1102
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: a very convenient thing to do if there's public land,

1103
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: to complain about the way you think that land should

1104
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 1: be managed. But on the other side, I think there

1105
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 1: are some things you can do about this, But one

1106
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: you can engage in more genuine partnership with your stakeholders.

1107
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: So for example, here in Michigan, UM, we've we've done

1108
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: a number of things. We have the present Restoration Initiative,

1109
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: which is this broad based partnership of all the groups

1110
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 1: of the m v and R has just one of

1111
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 1: the individual organizations at the table and no more important

1112
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: than any of the others. We've done the same thing

1113
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: around Waterfell, We've done the same thing around deer, We've

1114
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: done the same thing around uh management of bear populations.

1115
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: We have the only consensus driven wolf plan in North America.

1116
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: Turns out, I'm not sure how how far that got

1117
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: us in the end, but we've got it. The point is,

1118
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, work with your stakeholders and and and try

1119
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: to establish dialogue with them. And the general rule there

1120
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 1: is it's harder to be mad at somebody that you

1121
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: don't as opposed to a nameless, faceless somebody that he

1122
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 1: can be mad at because you because you don't know.

1123
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 1: That doesn't work with everybody, who won't work with everybody

1124
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 1: all the time, but at the end of the day,

1125
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: trying to be as open with people and to involve

1126
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: them in the management of their resources, because ultimately the

1127
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: agencies are our trust managers, and we manage these things

1128
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,919
Speaker 1: in trust with the people. We are more than happy

1129
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: to work with folks, which is why when we've got

1130
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: our license increase. Of that license increase goes out to

1131
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 1: granting grants and aids to our partners. That goes back

1132
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: I'll repeat that of the wildlife license increase goes back

1133
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: out to partners. And those partners could be the organizations

1134
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: that everybody knows as well as local sportsmen's groups or

1135
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: our County Conservation Club to try to dore some sense

1136
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: of a conservation community in Michigan, because that's how you

1137
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 1: get around that pointing. We need a conservation community work

1138
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: where the agency is just one among many working to

1139
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: maintain a restore Michigan's natural resources, which is a big deal.

1140
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: I'll give you another rhetorical question. What is the difference

1141
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: Michigan's natural resources states? So it's Idaho, Montana, Utah, Oregon,

1142
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 1: in Washington. What's the difference between Michigan and the rest

1143
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 1: of those states? And the answer is that Michigan's natural

1144
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: resources are restored through a hundred and twenty years of

1145
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: dedicated effort by certain legislators, by the Department of Natural

1146
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 1: Resources and Sportsmen. Hundred and twenty years ago, Michigan, to

1147
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: put it nicely, didn't look anything like he did today.

1148
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: Does today the land was burnt over, not once, but

1149
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: twice three times. There were no trees, there were no whaling.

1150
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: The water was polluted. We put it back. We put

1151
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: it back. We have restored they Chigan. Michigan and its

1152
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: natural resources are contrived because of heavy duty management from

1153
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: the public and the agency working together. It's in everybody's

1154
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: best interest. So the agency these days, Wildlife Division especially,

1155
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 1: is very interested in restoring that conservation community and working

1156
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: with her partners to make sure that natural resources are

1157
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: protected and grown in the state of Michigan. It's it's

1158
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: pretty incredible too. I think so many of us don't

1159
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: have that perspective and history at all. You know, a

1160
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: lot of us personally me, I'm twenty or twenty eight

1161
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: years old, muster Um twenty seven years old, I think,

1162
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: and I you know, didn't live in a time when

1163
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: we didn't have tremendous natural resources in this state. So

1164
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: I think allot of us lose that perspective and forget

1165
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: that a lot of hard work and partnership is responsible

1166
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: for where we are today. Um. Now that said, you

1167
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 1: mentioned the fact that you know your your team's responsibility

1168
01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,919
Speaker 1: is to manage the natural resources and the public trust

1169
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: and balance allot of different stakeholders. A common complaint that

1170
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 1: is heard from you, that I hear from other hunters

1171
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: is that the voice of deer hunters or the concerns

1172
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: of deer hunters aren't necessarily weighted as heavily as others

1173
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: being maybe the timber industry or the agricultural industry or

1174
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 1: insurance companies are different things. So that those are typical

1175
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: things that are thrown out there as reasons why maybe

1176
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: a state's wildlife agency is quote unquote driving the deer

1177
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: herd into the ground. These are the things that people say,

1178
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 1: So can you can you tell us how does the

1179
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: deer hunters voice and concerns and the things that we value,

1180
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: where does that rank in regards to the rest of

1181
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: the stakeholders at the table, and how is that taken

1182
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: into um taking the consideration when determining how to manage

1183
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: the deer herd and what those numbers need to be. Well,

1184
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: I think, first off, the only but let's let's I

1185
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 1: love that the insurance company. One the only thing I

1186
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: know about insurance companies is if they take my money

1187
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: and raise my rights like get backs into the garage wall.

1188
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 1: That's that's what I know about insurance company. We don't

1189
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: talk to them, they don't talk to us. We get

1190
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: their statistics. That's because it turns out deer getting hit

1191
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: on the road or a pretty good index of abundance.

1192
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 1: Think of a car as a giant bullet with electric

1193
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 1: windows that funds day dear. But for some of those others.

1194
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 1: I invite people to come to a Commission meeting if

1195
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 1: you don't think that the Commission, the jurisdictional body for

1196
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: a while for natural resources in the state, doesn't take

1197
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: deer hunter seriously. I invite anybody to come or watch

1198
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 1: the NBCC podcast, which happens live every single commission meeting,

1199
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:42,560
Speaker 1: and you just take it in. I dare anybody to

1200
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 1: say nobody takes deer seriously. At the same time, if

1201
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 1: you look at what we do in our natural uh,

1202
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: in our in our in our state, force deer equals

1203
01:08:55,240 --> 01:09:00,599
Speaker 1: timber harvest. Timber harvest equals deer. They are the saying thing,

1204
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 1: which is why the Wild Activision, in equal partnership with

1205
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 1: the Forest Resources Division managers, manages timber production in the state.

1206
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 1: There wouldn't be healthy deer populations in the state if

1207
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: we weren't always optimizing with forest resources. Some folks don't

1208
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: like that. Some people say, gee whiz, you know, I

1209
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: like those old growth force From a while at point

1210
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: of view, I don't you want to have healthy populations

1211
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 1: that means clear cuts and big ones, because big clear

1212
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 1: cuts are good for dear, They're good for grass, they're

1213
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: good for woodcock, they're good for snowshoe hair, they're good

1214
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 1: for turkeys, they're good for elk, and they're good for moose.

1215
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: I like them. We're going to continue to do them.

1216
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 1: From a wildlife point of view, I'm not really as

1217
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: interested in the aesthetics of things. Otherwise when people say,

1218
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 1: oh golly, they never listened to us, you know, you know,

1219
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I guess people just need to come

1220
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: and watch the process. The Wild Act Division makes recommendations

1221
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: to a commission. That commission is seven individuals appointed over

1222
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 1: multiple administrations, so there isn't any political bias there. Those

1223
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:11,120
Speaker 1: individuals all hunting fish. They are very interested in the

1224
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 1: resource and they try to make the very best decisions

1225
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 1: that they can. I think folks sometimes get wrapped around

1226
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 1: axels like, oh gee, I'll give you a great one.

1227
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: Folks will say to me, you know, we need to

1228
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 1: get rid of those youth seasons in the in the

1229
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 1: at the at the beginning here, Oh my golly, those

1230
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: kids are shooting all the deer. Or we need to

1231
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:33,719
Speaker 1: get rid of that late antaly season. Oh my gollah.

1232
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 1: The department couldn't care about our deer because they're getting killed.

1233
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: We'll tell you what, two point three percent of the

1234
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: deer in the state of Michigan or shot in those

1235
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: early season. Three point three percent of the deer is

1236
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: shot in the late end of this even seven per

1237
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 1: center shot in muzzleloader, thirty three per center shot in

1238
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 1: archery season, and the rest is firearm. You want to

1239
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 1: monkey with deer numbers, but fooling with the edges. Let's

1240
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: talk about some other things here, which is one of

1241
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 1: the opportunities that we have it standardized multiple year regulations.

1242
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:05,520
Speaker 1: Maybe it is time to look at our regulatory structure

1243
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 1: when we come back to it in a couple of

1244
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 1: years here and ask whether the structure that we have

1245
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: is appropriate. Maybe we do want to change some things up,

1246
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 1: and maybe not just at the edges. You know, we

1247
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: have a muzzleloader season, perhaps based on the fact that

1248
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: we used to shoot, you know, folks would take a flintlock,

1249
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 1: and the victory was having the gun go off much

1250
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 1: less having a deer shot. I'm pretty sure inlines don't

1251
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:31,679
Speaker 1: work that way. I'm pretty sure I could swim underwater

1252
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 1: across the lake, pop up in the reeds on the

1253
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,600
Speaker 1: other shot, and kill a deer with my muzzleloader. My

1254
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 1: in life, you know, it's it's it is, by by

1255
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: any definition, a very sophisticated piece of equipment. Likewise, crossbows, likewise,

1256
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 1: compound those We have this terribly long archery season, perhaps

1257
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 1: because it was really hard to kill deer with the stickboat,

1258
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 1: and it is hard to kill deer with the stickboat,

1259
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 1: not so much with a compound or a cross bow.

1260
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 1: Maybe we do need to you think some of these things.

1261
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 1: And it's not just about regulations. You know, if you

1262
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: look at changes over the last twenty years, we've got

1263
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 1: tree stands, we've got mating, we've got high end optics,

1264
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,759
Speaker 1: we've got better firearms, we've got better archery equipment. Boys.

1265
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:17,720
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's time that we think about our

1266
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: own ethics in some of these situations, as opposed to

1267
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: looking at the department and saying, you know, if we

1268
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 1: just tweaked the antalysts regulations, or we tweaked how many

1269
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: points a buckead to have. By golly, the world will

1270
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,639
Speaker 1: be good. Maybe we need to think about the ethics

1271
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: of our own pursuits a little bit, just just as

1272
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 1: part of that conversation, not saying it's the only piece,

1273
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 1: and think about what hunters can do as well as

1274
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 1: our ethics and our equipment and our abilities have changed.

1275
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 1: Trail cans are you kidding me? You can? You can

1276
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 1: trail cam up your property and pattern a deer from

1277
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 1: the comfort of your study while you're watching reruns on TV,

1278
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 1: you know, Dangerous and Naked and the Live or whatever.

1279
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: You can watch TV and pattern deer on your property.

1280
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: That sounds pretty sporty to me. But a lot of

1281
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 1: guys do it, right. Maybe we need to rethink some

1282
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 1: of these things just a little bit. And I think

1283
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 1: it it's upon everyone in the community, not just the

1284
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: Department of Natural Resources, to engage in that conversation. Yeah,

1285
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 1: you you touched on a lot of a lot of

1286
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 1: hot button topics. I think that a lot of people

1287
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: who all have different vary opinions on and to your point,

1288
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 1: a lot of it comes down to the personal the

1289
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: personal responsibility and starting starting to you know, think about

1290
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: these things ourselves. Um So, with that in mind, if

1291
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 1: if if you were able to make changes, if you

1292
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: were able to control and manage the deer herd in

1293
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 1: Michigan to your the way you think would be best

1294
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,640
Speaker 1: for science and management all these things, without the politics

1295
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 1: and without needing needing to just you know, balance stakeholders

1296
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 1: and and all these things just to appease different parties.

1297
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 1: If you could just do what you believed was the

1298
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: right way to manage the deer heard in Michigan, would

1299
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 1: you would you be making would you make any changes today?

1300
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: If there are handful things you could do right now,

1301
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 1: if you didn't have to please this person or that person,

1302
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 1: what would those couple of things be so? Well? You know,

1303
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 1: I think the first thing I really want to understand

1304
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: is what what are hunting community really wants? You know,

1305
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: what I want personally as a hunter is less important

1306
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 1: than what the majority of hunters in the state of

1307
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: Michigan want. There is a there's a change going on,

1308
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:29,840
Speaker 1: and no doubt if you look at sort of the

1309
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 1: demographics of our deer hunting communities, older guys tend to

1310
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: be less interested in in Antler point restrictions and so forth,

1311
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 1: and younger guys do I see a sort of change coming.

1312
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 1: There's much more interest in private lands management for deer,

1313
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:49,800
Speaker 1: I think than there probably was thirty years ago. There's

1314
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: some changes there. And so you know that my responsibility

1315
01:14:55,360 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: is to try to provide the deer hunting experience, the

1316
01:15:00,479 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: dear population structure that the greatest number of our hunters want.

1317
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 1: Realizing that because hunting is a secular theology, that if

1318
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 1: that that by that very definition, even though I am

1319
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 1: pleasing the greatest number of people, I will make people

1320
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: on either end of that majority violently angry with what

1321
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 1: I've suggested. There's no question about that. Uh. This is uh.

1322
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: You know, somebody said to me the other day, you

1323
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,280
Speaker 1: need to look at satisfied hunters. If you were selling shoes,

1324
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: by golly, you'd be out of business. And I said,

1325
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,599
Speaker 1: a young man, selling shoes is easy. You know, I'm

1326
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:43,640
Speaker 1: just buying shoes. I don't sell shoes. I sell worldviews.

1327
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 1: And so in my case, I'm actually looking at a

1328
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: secular theology. I'm sort of saying, you know, what, young man,

1329
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 1: would you like to be a Presbyterian? Well, you don't

1330
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 1: want to be a Presbyterian. Will let me suggest methodism

1331
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 1: to you. You know, it's a very complicated thing. What comes,

1332
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 1: you know, what is said a faction? Is it the

1333
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 1: size of the deer, the number of deer that you see,

1334
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:08,679
Speaker 1: your experience in the woods, your lack of conflict with others,

1335
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 1: how far you have to travel or not, how much

1336
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,679
Speaker 1: you know. There's there's all of these pieces, and none

1337
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:19,000
Speaker 1: of those pieces is necessarily less important than another. So

1338
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 1: I could make, you know, big deer, say, you know,

1339
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,799
Speaker 1: just magically make some big deer, but restrict your access

1340
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 1: to him in some way. That would makes some people

1341
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 1: very happy and other people just so mad. They couldn't

1342
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 1: see strength. I could make a lot of deer, but

1343
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 1: not so many big ones. And that was some folks

1344
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: that think that's just the cats. Uh cats me on.

1345
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 1: Other people would write me nasty letters telling me they're

1346
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 1: only going to hunt in Indiana and Illinois. Uh. You know,

1347
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:51,639
Speaker 1: so this isn't a this isn't really a solvable question. Again,

1348
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:55,519
Speaker 1: going back to Leopold, you read his letters. It's depressing

1349
01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 1: the same spectrum of beliefs and preferences was president then

1350
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 1: as now, with the exception that there's this gradual movement

1351
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 1: toward more of a quality deer management perspective in the

1352
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: hunting population. So I anticipate a decade or two from

1353
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: now that's probably where we will be. Uh, because even

1354
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 1: though we're sort of a big box state, we are

1355
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: a quantity rather than a quality state, unlike a boutique

1356
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: state like uh. Oh. I don't know some of our

1357
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 1: Midwest neighbors to the south. You know, I'll pick a

1358
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:32,240
Speaker 1: sort of a not controversial example. Nevada is a high

1359
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 1: quality mule deer state. Nevada is a high quality elk state.

1360
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:39,519
Speaker 1: Nevada has twenty three thousand resident and non resident tags

1361
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 1: in the tag pool. I was the game chiefs in

1362
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 1: Nevada for a few years twenty thousand. Hold that in mind.

1363
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: We have more people crossing the border to hunt deer

1364
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 1: in this state from Ohio and Indiana alone than the

1365
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:56,120
Speaker 1: entire tag pool in the state of Nevada, the entire

1366
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:59,800
Speaker 1: tag pool resident and non resident combined. The point b

1367
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 1: in uh, you know, there's it's gonna be a gradual movement,

1368
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:07,160
Speaker 1: I think, you know, and and it will move over

1369
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:12,879
Speaker 1: time in various ways. But the function of the department

1370
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 1: should be not to to require people to do things

1371
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:22,720
Speaker 1: or or to Uh, I don't know. People want us

1372
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: to lead in the direction, but mostly people want us

1373
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,719
Speaker 1: to lead where they want us to go. Good leadership

1374
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 1: from is always in the eye of the beholder. So

1375
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 1: it's a hard question to the plumb. To be honest

1376
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 1: with you, Yeah, it sounds like you've got a hard

1377
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 1: job to do. It's a thinkless job, I'd say, it

1378
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 1: seems like it must be at times. Well, actually, uh,

1379
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:47,639
Speaker 1: it's a lot better than working for a little I'll

1380
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 1: tell you that fair enough. I enjoy doing what I

1381
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 1: do because I think what I do is in play.

1382
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 1: It's important to me personally, So I'm good with that.

1383
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:02,559
Speaker 1: I'm good with my pertnity, sir, very good. So so Dan,

1384
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:04,600
Speaker 1: what are you? What are you thinking over there? Do

1385
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 1: you have any questions for us? I know we've we've

1386
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 1: talked about this topic of agency hunter relations a lot.

1387
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: What are you thinking? My My only thing is some

1388
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 1: because because there are so many people that have their

1389
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 1: own opinions, isn't it best that the um that that

1390
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,799
Speaker 1: the government agency puts their you know, their best guys

1391
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: on it. And I guess what I'm trying to say

1392
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:39,719
Speaker 1: is my opinion of the government agencies is they're doing

1393
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 1: what is best for the whole picture and and not

1394
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 1: what affects, you know, one guy on his property versus

1395
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:52,439
Speaker 1: the other guy on on the next property. They're trying

1396
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 1: to preserve, um, you know, this way of living, this,

1397
01:19:57,600 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, and keeping it so that we can cont

1398
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 1: you need to hunt, you know. Yeah, some of us

1399
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 1: have to have to sacrifice some things at times, but

1400
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 1: they're doing it for the greater good. And I think

1401
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people just don't get that. Yeah, I

1402
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: think there's some truth of that. It's just what you're

1403
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:17,639
Speaker 1: saying there rust the fact that you have to balance

1404
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:19,160
Speaker 1: a lot of things and that there's always gonna be

1405
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 1: someone on either end who who doesn't see things the

1406
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:25,880
Speaker 1: way you do. So it's uh, it's all right, you know.

1407
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:28,519
Speaker 1: The other part is that one of the gratifying pieces

1408
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:31,679
Speaker 1: I rarely did with people that really don't care about

1409
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:33,600
Speaker 1: the resource as much as I do. It's just that

1410
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 1: they happen to disagree with me, uh something, which is fine.

1411
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 1: And and and that's okay listening boys, And I've gotta actually, uh,

1412
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 1: I've got a stop coming in right now. I'm going

1413
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: to have to leave you now, but it's a little

1414
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 1: after five to move on to my next adventure. Yes,

1415
01:20:51,120 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 1: that's that's perfectly fine. We really appreciate your time and rest.

1416
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: This has been eye opening, I think for a lot

1417
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,640
Speaker 1: of people and interesting and um an important discussion. So

1418
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 1: thank you for for taking this time to explain a

1419
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 1: lot of these things and share your perspective from from

1420
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:09,160
Speaker 1: a wildlife agency. Thank you for having me. It's a

1421
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,639
Speaker 1: real pleasure. All right, Russ, have a great afternoon. Thanks again. Yeah,

1422
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:16,640
Speaker 1: bet bye bye. All right, Well that is going to

1423
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:20,080
Speaker 1: be it for us today on the podcast. Now. Before

1424
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 1: we shut things down, though, I do want to give

1425
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 1: a quick thank you to our partners who helped make

1426
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:27,800
Speaker 1: the Wired to Hunt podcast possible. So big thank you too,

1427
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,840
Speaker 1: Sick of Gear, Trophy, Ridge Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, on

1428
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 1: Terra Maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Lacrosse Boots, and the White

1429
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:40,760
Speaker 1: Tail Institute of North America. And finally, thank you for

1430
01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 1: joining us today. I hope you found this discussion with

1431
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 1: Russ interesting and helpful, and also, of course I hope

1432
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 1: you have a great week and stay Wired to Hunt.