1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic production I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: You pulled off the road to a little, tiny silver 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: trailer and there was someone standing there with a machine 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: gun slung over his back. Guns were actually allowed at 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: burning Man. And the other guy was wrapped in a 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: white sheet holding a plastic pink flamingo. You couldn't see 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: black Rock City because you actually needed to drive fifteen 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: miles towards a mountain peak. You're like, I drive how far? 9 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: And then turn right two miles and then the little 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: city appeared in front of you. It felt like you're 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: on another planet. I am Bob Pittman, and welcome to 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: Math and Magic Stories from the Frontiers and Marketing, where 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: we explore that special mix of analytics and creativity that's 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: the foundation of so many great business, marketing and cultural successes. 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: To day. We're going to the frontiers with a real pioneer, 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: the CEO of Burning Man, Maryan Goodell. She came from 17 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: a background that may surprise you thinking about burning Man. 18 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: Republican Irish Catholic Conservative. Her sister's godfather was the late 19 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: Supreme Court Justice Scalia, and her dad was a big 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: fan of Ann Rand. She moved around a lot as 21 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: a kid, but finished high school in a small town 22 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: in Ohio where her graduating class only had a hundred 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: and eighty students in it. She was the only one 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: in her graduating class to go to all women's college. 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: She was there in the formative years of Burning Man 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: and can tell us how this culture developed and can 27 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: discuss its impact on the greater world. She has an 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: open mind, a big heart, and an unlimited imagination. And 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: she's a friend. Marian. Welcome, Thank you, Bob. It's great 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: to be here. So we're going to get started with 31 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: you in sixty seconds. Ready. Do you prefer desert or ocean? 32 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: Ocean early rise or night owl? Night owl coffee or 33 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: tea Tea San Francisco or Black Rock City Tie Ohio 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: or Nevada, Ohio? Catchup? Or mustard mustard pizza or Tacos 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: tacos chocolate or vanilla chocolate. Cats are dogs? Cats? Smartest 36 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: person you know, Bob Pittman. Oh yeah right, we'll give 37 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: you a pass on that one. First job Kmart doing 38 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: what check out cashier? Favorite book when I was a child, 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: Paddle to the Sea, Last vacation. I don't know what 40 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: that is. Secret talent I make a really really mean 41 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: pumpkin pie. First concert I saw a journey? Is there 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: a food you will never eat? I can't stand turnips? 43 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: In Cilantro? Title of your memoir? What would it be? Oh, 44 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: look where I woke up and found myself? Who would 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: play you in a movie? A Nut Benning? One place 46 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: you'd like to visit that you haven't been? Mvali. What 47 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: did you want to be a growing up? I wanted 48 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: to be a teacher. What topic can you talk about forever? Cats? 49 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: If you have one superpower? What would it be to 50 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: see the future? Okay, let's start with a little Burning Man. 51 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: I went for the first time in two thousand and four, 52 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: and there were still plenty of people in the world 53 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: who had never heard of Burning Man Man. Of those 54 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: who did know what, the culture seemed very fringe, a 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: little crazy. So today, let's fast forward. There's almost universal 56 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: recognition of the culture, and it seems much more part 57 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: of the mainstream. What happened in those fifteen years, culture 58 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: in the world certainly changed. Media got ahold of Burning Man. 59 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: People are looking for ways to connect, and Burning Man 60 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: really strips everything away and gives people an opportunity to connect, 61 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: you know, that's the thing that changed. Burning Man was 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: Wired magazine and the tech community. That culture was building 63 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: tools and to keep being inspired aired. Burning Man was 64 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: an environment that was innovative and gave them the opportunity 65 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: to think in a really broadway. And then it's been 66 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: a second generation of that. We've watched cycles of the 67 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: popularity Burnie Man. It sort of slipped back and we 68 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: became quiet again, and then there was a resurgence for 69 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: the same reasons. For the few people who are listening 70 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: who don't know this, would you give us the quick 71 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: origin story, Well, Bernie Man started on a beach in 72 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 1: San Francisco in Larry Harvey and his friend Jerry James 73 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: built about an eight foot tall wooden man and burned 74 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: it on the summer solstice. It was just an evening 75 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: thing until when too many people showed up on the 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: beach and then they moved it to the Black Rock 77 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: Desert over Labor Day weekend and that's where it stayed 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: and originally was about three days and now it is 79 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: eight nights in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada. So 80 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: how did they find this location outside of girl Lac. 81 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: There are a number of people that point to Larry, 82 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: but he credits miss p and John on Law and 83 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: some others as having been to the area for different 84 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: artistic reasons. And so when the law enforcement showed up 85 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: in and they took the Burning Man away, they actually 86 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: didn't burn it on the beach. In the different groups 87 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: and friends got together and said, listen, there's this thing 88 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: called the Black Rock Desert, and they went and did 89 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: a scouting trip up there. They put the Man in 90 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: the back of a rider truck and they drove it 91 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: up there on a Friday afternoon. That's how the town 92 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: of Girl Act kind of got on the map. Was 93 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: this funky, little cute, quirky town is now the home 94 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: to the Burning Man. As we were searching you for 95 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: this episode, I read that Larry, the late Larry Harvey, 96 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: the founder of Burning Man, just wrote the Ten Principles 97 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four. I was actually surprised. I 98 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: never realized it had been that long before he committed them. 99 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: The writing and the ten are will you give them 100 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: to us? I can give them to you. They are 101 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: leaving no trace. Radical self reliance, radical inclusion, de commodification, 102 00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: communal effort, civic responsibility, participation, gifting, radical self expression and immediacy. 103 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: So had those been talked about before or did that 104 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: just sort of pop into Larry's head? And two, the 105 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: story of the Ten Principles is really one of my 106 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: favorite stories because people do think that we started with 107 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: this sort of dictum of ideas and that we went 108 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: about sort of putting them in place, and it was 109 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: just the opposite. The activities and the culture and the 110 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: community and the engagement that was happening at Burning Man 111 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: was happening very organically. And one of the things that Larry, 112 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: as a philosopher and a writer and have great thinker, 113 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: really would do with the other organizers is think about, well, 114 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: what had gone right this year and what went wrong? 115 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: For instance, gifting. People had barter bars, and he said, 116 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: this is not about bartering, because bartering was transactional. We 117 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: started talking internally about gifting and putting gifting forward. In 118 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: early two thousands, as the regional network of leaders were 119 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: starting to grow, we realized they really were asking for 120 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: reminders about why they weren't allowed to sell anything at 121 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: their events. Why did we not sell burgers, why did 122 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: we not sell water? And so we went through an 123 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: internal process of sort of asking ourselves reminding ourselves, well, 124 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: why has this worked, and how do we tell the 125 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: rest of the world. I had an email list of 126 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: these various leaders from around the world, and I asked 127 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: Larry to watch the conversations and what the questions were, 128 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: and I would periodically beg him to answer a question 129 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: that we were thinking through. And he finally got tired 130 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: of answering these questions and he said, I'm going to 131 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: write something, and he went away for vacation in Maze 132 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: Laan and he came back with these nine points. These 133 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: were these principles, and he presented them to the group 134 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: of us and we kind of chuckled because it brilliantly 135 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: brought together the things we've all been thinking about, what 136 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: we really had talked about separately but not as a group. 137 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: And then we teased him. We said there's nine. Why 138 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: they're nine? And he looked at us stunned, and we said, 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: shouldn't there be ten? And he went home and he 140 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: came back and he said, well, actually there was one 141 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: more that he'd been thinking about, and the last one 142 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: was immediacy and that was his favorite. And so we 143 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: ended up with ten principles that were really a reflection 144 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: of what we were doing, and they were descriptive but 145 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: not prescriptive. Any pushback when Larry came out with these 146 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: ten was there an element of burning? Then this is 147 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: oh my god, not those ten Well, so we were 148 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: really afraid of them for that reason. We didn't want 149 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: them to be seen as ten commandments or ten rules. 150 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: So the first thing we did was actually published in 151 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: for the regional network. We put them out on an 152 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: email list. They were so well received that we actually 153 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: put them in a paper newsletter. We actually used to 154 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: send a newsletter out every year. People began to discuss them, 155 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: and we knew we were onto something if we told 156 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: the story about them being descriptive and not prescriptive. So 157 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: it's something to think about and reflect and embody, but 158 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: they're not commanded, there's no police. It grew on everybody 159 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: and then they started imagining, well, how can I participate 160 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: and what does this mean for me? So more of 161 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: a prism than commandments, right, And we really haven't gotten 162 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: pushback from the ten principles ever. Ever. I still remember 163 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: burning Man being referred to as an experiment and temporary community. 164 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: Just that still used today and is it still relevant 165 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: at that time. That's what we called it. It was 166 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: an experiment in temporary community. What was a temporary community 167 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: on the desert floor is not a temporary community anymore. 168 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: It's really a global, active, engaged community year round. It's 169 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: year round. I want to come back and discuss how 170 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: these principles and this view can be used in general 171 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: society today and even in business. But first I want 172 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: to dig into you. At the top, I mentioned your 173 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: family that was definitely business focused and conservative. I think 174 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: your dad was sort of an old style industrialist. Your 175 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: mom was from New Orleans, and you've described her as loving. 176 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: You were born in the early sixties, grew up in 177 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies. Can you paint a little picture 178 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: of that time. My uncle was a protester, arrested in 179 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: d C and went to Woodstock, so I absolutely remember 180 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: the energy around the summer of love, the coming of age. 181 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: He was a big pot smoker. He lived in a commune. 182 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: My dad's brother, my dad's brother exactly. That's why I 183 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: remember it. My father was conservative, We had Sunday breakfast together, 184 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: we went to church, and when I would visit my 185 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: uncle at Yale, there was psychedelic colors on the wall, 186 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: and there was a big mattress where everybody's hanging out 187 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: smoking pot although they weren't allowed around us obviously, and 188 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: my mother pressed flowers. My uncle had an influence on her. Also. 189 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: All of my uncles, though some have married, never had children, 190 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,359 Speaker 1: so I had sort of freestyle relatives, but a conservative 191 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: father at least. I think my mother was a little 192 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: bit more of a hippie. For did your dad reject 193 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: that or was he open minded? He was pretty open minded. 194 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: My uncle was sort of like the black sheep of 195 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: the family, but loved the family's Catholic very embracing even 196 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: of the differences. We were talking about the ten principles 197 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: of burning man. Did your family have their version of 198 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: the ten principles? We certainly did. I was reminded recently 199 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: by one of my sisters that my father was very 200 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: into manners. If you caught your sister having bad manners 201 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: at the table, if you had your elbows on the table, 202 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: if you talked with your mouthful and you called your 203 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: sister on it, you could get five cents or ten cents. 204 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: My father was a capitalist with the rules at the 205 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: dinner table. You were the oldest of four sisters, and 206 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: your dad was a businessman, So did that preordain you 207 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: to be a leader? I don't think I was certain 208 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: I would be a leader really until I came out 209 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: of Goucher. My senior year at Goucher, I ran for 210 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: student buddy treasurer and one that gave me the bug 211 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: for what was possible with leadership, how to bring your 212 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: ideas to the service. Right after college, I moved to 213 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: Boston and worked in advertising and knew that I was 214 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: on a search to find where I could be a leader. 215 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: Burning man didn't really exist, and it wasn't a job 216 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: I applied for. You go to this all women's college 217 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: in Baltimore. Why there and why were you so different 218 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: from the other kids leaving school? Well, my mother went 219 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: to Wellesley and her sister went to Wellsley, and my 220 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: father's sister went to Wellesley, and I'm the oldest of 221 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: four women, So I don't remember actually even considering a 222 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 1: co ed school. It was such an important storyline in 223 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: my family, and certainly nobody in Brian, Ohio went to 224 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: a woman's college. Wellesley, Sweetbriar, Goucher. They were the schools 225 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: that I considered. Goucher College was just a really great 226 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: place to flourish. It was like having sisters. I grew 227 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: up with sisters, and I had more sisters. When you 228 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: started college, what did you intend to be when you 229 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: left college? What did you intend to be? I just 230 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: knew that the idea of getting married and having children 231 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: as being the days for the next five to ten 232 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: years was not the phase that I was looking for. 233 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: I was actually really looking for college to give me 234 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: some tools to be on a journey. I was a 235 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: year into Goucher, and I realized that if I struggled 236 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: too hard to find exactly what I wanted, I would 237 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: miss the opportunity of being in college. So I sought 238 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: out creative writing in English. I loved to read, I 239 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: loved to write. As it has turned out, those were foundational. 240 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: Being a good communicator was often why I was hired 241 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: with burning Man, and really with other employment. I had 242 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: to go to Boston briefly, then San Francisco. What was 243 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: the allure of San franz And why better than the 244 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: East Coast? You know? One winter, I got tired of 245 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: digging my car out of the snow in Boston, and 246 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: I went to visit a friend who was living in 247 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: the hate. The lifestyle of living in California was so 248 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: much more about finding yourself off and then it wasn't 249 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: who you are as to where you worked and where 250 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: you went to college, which I found was very much 251 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: true in Boston. I knew it was a place where 252 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: I could really explore who I am. So you worked 253 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: in sales and pr out there and then you quit 254 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: and went to the San Francisco Academy of Art where 255 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: you got your m f A. What took you on 256 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: that path, because that's not sales and pr I did 257 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: really well in the sales end of things. I was 258 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: selling a product actually back to the government. It was 259 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: information based and it was on CD ROM and I 260 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: loved the work. But I got a really great bonus 261 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: check one day and I realized I didn't even know 262 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: what to do with the money, and I didn't feel 263 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: super inspired. I had as having physical experiences I didn't 264 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: quite understand, and I went to a doctor who told 265 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: me she thought I was depressed. I was like, I'm 266 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: not depressed. I'm doing great. And when I really reflected 267 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: on it, I realized I wasn't inspired. At that time, 268 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: all my sisters were in graduate school and I was 269 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: like the Black Sheep. Not in graduate school, and I 270 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: loved photography. I love storytelling, and pulled the plug on 271 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: the great job and went back for Masters in Fine 272 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: Art with emphasis and photography none. So that's where I 273 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: saw photos of Burning Man. Well, that's what I was 274 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: going to get into. I read that it was another 275 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: student's photo. Then Chincho on the Burning Man path. It 276 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: was such a funny story. We were in a color 277 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: class looking at these gorgeous pictures of a sunset of 278 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: this large piece of artwork. I remember asking and whispering 279 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: about the location, and the teacher shushing me and another 280 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: guy and telling us that this was not about the subject, 281 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: it was the quality of the photos. And afterwards we 282 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: kind of chased her out of the room, and she 283 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: was insistent that you needed to know the right phone number, 284 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: and she just couldn't remember it. Sort of on and on, 285 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: and it took me another year to chase it down. 286 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: I was struck by the desert and the art. Just 287 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: one art piece. There wasn't the hundreds of art pieces. 288 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: There was just the man and look so solitary and 289 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: gorgeous and beautiful. And I wanted to go both to 290 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: the event, but I also wanted to go to the desert. 291 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: You went the birding Man for the first time in 292 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: you show up and it is what it's mind boggling. 293 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: You pulled off onto the road to a little, tiny 294 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: silver trailer and there was someone standing there with a 295 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: machine gun slung over his back, and it was a 296 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: real machine gun, but that was also his personas with 297 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: real bullets, I suppose, because they were all into guns. 298 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: In those days. Guns were actually allowed at burning Man. 299 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: They would go off into a shooting range in the afternoon, 300 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: shooting stuffed animals tied to trees, and the other guy 301 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: was wrapped in a white sheet holding a plastic pink flamingo. 302 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: You couldn't see black Rock City because you actually needed 303 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: to drive fifteen miles towards a mountain peak. The best 304 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: part of it really was you couldn't see where you 305 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: were going. You're like, I drive how far? And then 306 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: turn right two miles and then the little city appeared 307 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: in front of you. And so that part is gone 308 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: because for safety we're closer to the land. But the 309 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: idea that you would drive and drive and drive kind 310 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: of timidly without any roads, without any fences, and then 311 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: this little village of people would appear. Was pretty otherworldly. 312 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: It felt like you're on another planet. You met the 313 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: organizers and ninety six and NT seven you quit your job, 314 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: used your savings and dovan You, Larry Harvey, and four 315 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: others founded the organization that later became black Rock City LLC, 316 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: burning Man's managing organization. You were originally the head of 317 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: business and communications, and you took Burning Man into the Internet. 318 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: You started the newsletter Jack Rabbit Speaks, which is still 319 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: with us today. Tell me a little bit about how 320 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: you made that job, because this is like a real 321 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: big life change for you. I had a job I 322 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: really liked for a small firm that made sales software. 323 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: I was with a really small team doing the internetwork 324 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: to programmers to designers. I was a person doing the 325 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: writing and the editing. I've sort of created a project 326 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: management position for myself. It was super fun. It was 327 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: the very beginning of those kinds of things. But I'd 328 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: gone to Burning Man and came back from Burning Man, 329 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: and when I started the relationship with Larry and began 330 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: to build the Jack Rabbit Speaks, I was running it 331 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: through the servers at work because the Internet was strong 332 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: at work, until one day one of the programmers said 333 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: to me, I know what you're doing. You're doing this 334 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: thing and it's going out to fifteen thousand people through 335 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: our servers, and you can't do that anymore. And I 336 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: remember thinking, Okay, I need to figure out whether what 337 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: I'm doing on the side is affecting what I'm doing 338 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: for my work. And then I started coming to work later. 339 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: I would be at the office till ten working on 340 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: Burning Man on the side, and so I would come 341 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: in a little later, and my boss said, no, your 342 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: work hours aren't working, and I was put on report things. 343 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: She gave me a pink slip. She said, your hours 344 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: need to change. I thought about what that would mean. 345 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: That meant not doing burning Men, and so I had 346 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: to that change and make burning Man the priority and 347 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 1: live off my savings and leave my job and make 348 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: it work. Just hold on a second, because we've got 349 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: so much more to talk about. We'll be back after 350 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: a quick break. Welcome back to math and Magic. We're 351 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: here with Mary and Goodell. I want to hit burning 352 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: Man as a giant tribe concept. Usually, if I hear 353 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: some of my dumber man go oh great, and we 354 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: have this instant bond, What is this giant tribe about, 355 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: and what is that instant acceptance of fellow burners. Originally, 356 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: it very much meant it was a shared experience of 357 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: being in the desert, that you had gone through the 358 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: trials and tribulations of the weather, of building a camp, 359 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: of getting there. The experience has gone beyond that now 360 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: because there are many people around the world that feel 361 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: like they've experienced burning Man at the Israel, burn at 362 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,959 Speaker 1: South Africa, in Japan and Argentina. And so that thread 363 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: now is that we know we've been through an environment 364 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: that is supportive of decommodification, that we're encouraging leave no trace, 365 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: that there's no trash cans, that communal effort and radical 366 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: self reliance are all in play. So the feeling of 367 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: burning Man is affiliating yourself with a way of life, 368 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: a perspective, a kindness towards others, of generosity that comes 369 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: from a burning Man experience, not just in Black Ruxity, 370 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: but in other places of the world. And you can 371 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: look at the person a little more safely, comfortably trusting 372 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: because you've had a similar shared experience. To talk about 373 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: how it's so broad outside of burning Man, I think 374 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: we define ourselves my liberal, my conservative? What's got a job? 375 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: Where do I live? But a burning Man? You have 376 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: all these people of all ages, radically different economic backgrounds, 377 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: political views. How can it be so broad? And society 378 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: in general today seems to be getting more and more 379 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: polarized and segmented. That's the beauty of going Burning Man 380 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: and being in a Burning Man environment. The organization in 381 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: particular makes it very clear that we don't want to 382 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: talk about politics, and we don't want people to feel 383 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: divided by their religion who they are. The goal is 384 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: really to bring people together and connect and collaborate and 385 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: do things greater than ourselves. People are often surprised. In fact, 386 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: they're most surprised when conservatives are at Burning Man. It's 387 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: really quite rewarding to see people of different political backgrounds 388 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: finding that they have something magical and common, like building 389 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: an art car together or taking adventure on the playa. 390 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: They may not even realize what their politics are, and 391 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: at this day and age, we need more bridges. We 392 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: need more bridges to understand each other. How does burning 393 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: then minimize that polarization among the burners because in the 394 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: outside world, the very people that are there would be polarized. 395 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: But inside burning Man is it because everybody wears clothes 396 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: that don't identify them as a job or what they 397 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: do is where they came from. What structurally helps that well. 398 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of different parts of what 399 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: burning Man is that sets us up for that. The 400 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: way in which we're asking for communal effort and civic responsibility, 401 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: that we're also balancing it with radical self reliance and 402 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: radical self expression. The intention is not about the individual 403 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: and the individual's beliefs, but it's more about what we're 404 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: bringing to it together under those conditions. Your radicalized opinions 405 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: on things matter towards the dialogue about being there in present, 406 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: but don't really matter related to the output. So, for instance, 407 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: the best way to express really different opinions would be 408 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: through art. You can also express it through a theme camp. 409 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: Our purpose is to bring people together. Our purpose is 410 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: to create opportunity for people to learn from each other 411 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: and to collaborate on large endeavors. So we are definitely 412 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: behind the scenes learning from activities and responses. We do 413 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: sort of tweak how we manage the camps, of how 414 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: we manage our communications, of how we set the expectations 415 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: for the community. It's not anarchy. We're all doing it together. 416 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: I love walking the playa with people for the first time. 417 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: The light shows on all these mutant vehicles going around, 418 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: and you can see their eyes wide open. I think 419 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: it challenges their view of what they know and what 420 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: they believe and what's possible. For anybody in the creative 421 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: side of the business, it's a great way to open 422 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: your mind creatively, to go, Wow, who are these people, 423 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: Where do they get that idea? How did they come 424 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: up with that, how did they execute it? How did 425 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: they get the money? Yeah, the engineer exactly, the conservative 426 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: engineer came and looked at Brittingman, and that's all he 427 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: wanted to do, Bob. He wanted to go to the 428 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: base of the big structures and figure out how did 429 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: they do it. The politics didn't matter, and in fact, 430 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: he was really worried that he would see things that 431 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: he didn't want to see. He didn't even see anything 432 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: that he was a rate of. He only saw the 433 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: imagination in an ingenuity that really sparked his imagination. The 434 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: first time I went, it was all fire, hula hoops 435 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: on fire. They were tossing and dancing with fire and 436 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: now it's all electric wires. What was that transition and 437 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: was that the law that we had to get rid 438 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: of fire or was it just an evolution. We saw 439 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: glow sticks for a while. The glow sticks went away 440 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: and that moved on to e L wire and I 441 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: think that that's more accessible for people. I think working 442 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: with fire is more of an art form. It does 443 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: take some work and some lessons. With safety. We do 444 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: have a little less burning of things in general, and 445 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: that's really logistics and safety. It takes a lot of 446 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: work to create a safe perimeter and so we are 447 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: seeing fewer large pieces being burned. Talk a little bit 448 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: about the regional burns. How did that come about and 449 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: how do they compare to burning men in Black Rock City. Well, 450 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: I've been to very few of them. Actually, I've been 451 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: to the one in New Zealand, which at the time 452 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: had about four people. I found it ist, is magical. 453 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: It had all the qualities of making eye contact with 454 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: someone and smiling. It had serendipity, actually had a pond, 455 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: so it wasn't a desert. They had performance. There was 456 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: a group in bathing suits and bathing caps that were 457 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: marching down to the Pond with great fanfare. The regional 458 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: events are I think very important for people to have 459 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: access to the experience of the culture. We can't really 460 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: have more than eighty thousand people in black Rock City. 461 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: The Burners that have been to black Rock City and 462 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: they go to Africa burn and have been going to 463 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: black Rock City for a while say it reminds them 464 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: of the old days, smaller, more intimate, but the energy 465 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: is the same. It's very creative and very self expressive. 466 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: So in Burning Man was profitable for the first time. 467 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: What was the business decisions that put Burning Man into 468 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: the black well? The first one was to raise the 469 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: ticket prices over the ticket prices Originally they were twenty 470 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: five dollars, and then at the gate I think they 471 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: might have been forty, and then I think the gate 472 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: price was sixty five. That was a really important year 473 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: between because as you heard, that's when I left my job, 474 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: and I wasn't the only one. The workload for the 475 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: six of us was such that we really couldn't do 476 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: other work, and that was when it was more important 477 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: to have not just twenty dollars left at the end 478 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: of the year to pay Larry's bills, but the rest 479 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: of us. It needed to help us survive. The only 480 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: way to do it is increase the population and to 481 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: raise the ticket prices. This is a big transformation of Marion. 482 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: What lessons does this have for others? What does it 483 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: say about a life mission. One of the things I 484 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: think it was important for me was taking the things 485 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: that I had done up to that point, and I 486 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: merged them into that opportunity. So through my twenties, which is, 487 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, a time when people are always trying to 488 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: figure out what they want to do. I was on 489 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: a journey, but I kind of wasn't afraid. I worked 490 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: as a bank teller, I worked in advertising, I actually 491 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: worked in a law firm. And when Bernie Man came 492 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: along in my early to mid thirties, those are the 493 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: things I took on. I took on supporting the legal 494 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: I knew banking and finance, the communications work for me. 495 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: The transformation is listening to what it is you're able 496 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: to do or what you want to do when it 497 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: comes in front of you. Knowing enough about yourself, ye 498 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: say yes instead of no. I took on the internet 499 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: and the website for Burning Man, but before that I 500 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: didn't know it existed. What was the web four years 501 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: before that? Not much? Not much. When you went for 502 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: the first time in n there were four thousand atten 503 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: days when I went for the first time. Nine years 504 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: later it was up to thirty thousand. Today it's eighty thousand. 505 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: When I went in two thousand and four, many people 506 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: said it's over, it's ruined. It's so commercial now. And 507 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: every year I hear people say that, what's that about? 508 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: What are they really saying? You know, it's such a 509 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: cherished experience for so many people. They are afraid that 510 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: it's going to deteriorate when more people come. They're protecting it. 511 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: But it does keep getting better and more imagination and 512 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: creativity does come to it. I think two thousand eleven 513 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: was the first year that burning Men sold out in advance. 514 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: Since then, the man has gotten so strong that you've 515 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: had to use lotteries and other techniques to allocate tickets. 516 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: What was that tipping point? That was the government They 517 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: started feeling uncomfortable about our growth and their capacity to 518 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: manage and observe our growth in a way that made 519 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: them feel like it was being done safely. That was 520 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: the endgame on that. You know, in the long run. 521 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: It was for the best. It is better for people 522 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: to come prepared and to think of it far enough 523 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: in advance. The numbers of people that were deciding to 524 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: come at the last minute, they were definitely in the thousands. 525 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: Now that we're at eighty thousand people, we don't even 526 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: want eight thousand people deciding at the last minute. But 527 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: the government was the initial halt. How do you deal 528 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: with the government. This is public and I know there's 529 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: some people in government who think it's great and some 530 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: people think it's not so great. Kind a minute to 531 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: talk about that the government is the hardest work for sure. 532 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: Really it's educating the government. We see changes certainly in politics, 533 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: but we don't see quite the same changes at the 534 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: same rate in the administrative side. But when we do, 535 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: it is really a journey to educate them that the 536 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: community is one that's very peaceable, very organized, and as 537 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: a very deliberate cultural intention. That's the work that I'm 538 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: still the most involved in technology communications, Those are delegated 539 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: to other people at this point, but I'm very involved 540 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: in the day to day and week to week strategy 541 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: around government relations. Frankly, it's very important that we have 542 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: good relations with everybody from the local Native Americans to 543 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: Reno City councilman, to the governor, state elected officials, and 544 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: then the federal government BLM Department the Interior. And that's 545 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people with differing priorities. You know, burning 546 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: man on the surface of an administrator in the government 547 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: looks like it's just a big party in the desert. 548 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: To have the conversation about at being a global culture 549 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: and frankly changing tourism in northern Nevada, that takes more time. 550 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: Two thousand eleven was also the you and Larry and 551 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: the other founders began the steps to turn the LLC 552 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: into a nonprofit. I remember spending some time with you 553 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: and Larry and some of the others during that time, 554 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: and it appeared you were collecting thoughts from everybody you 555 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: touched and sort of getting these different opinions and information 556 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 1: to help you make the move. What did you want 557 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: to accomplish with that move from an LLC to a nonprofit. Well, 558 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: the future of the entities and the culture we're not 559 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: going to flourish under the framework of a limited liability corporation. 560 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: The structure doesn't allow it to go on beyond the 561 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: lives of the owners, though we were functioning more as 562 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: a sea corps and we weren't taking any share as 563 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 1: we really needed the structure that could then go beyond 564 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: the individuals, and so that was really the driving force 565 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: behind it. We were collecting data because it's really somewhat 566 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: unheard of that you take an LLC and turn it 567 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: into a nonprofit. The way in which it changed the 568 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: decision making processes was very important to me. I certainly, 569 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: as you know, came from a fairly capitalist background. We 570 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: would make the decisions and we would act on them. 571 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: The nonprofit structure brought an element of public oversight, and 572 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: so I was kind of resistant in the beginning because 573 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: I just didn't want to take away our autonomy. So 574 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time asking, and ultimately we 575 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: found out we could run a nonprofit profitably. All of 576 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: this is built on protecting that culture. I've never seen 577 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: an organization so obsessive about the culture. What advice would 578 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: you give for other executives on managing a product or 579 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: a company culture that you've learned from Burning I don't 580 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: think that it's easy to translate Burning Man into being 581 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 1: a product, But what I can say that's been successful 582 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: for us is our intention in the journey of where 583 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: we were going, has a cultural path, looking at what 584 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: the end game is as it applies to what the 585 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: culture is, and actually understanding in the case of a product, 586 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: it would be the customer and in the case of us, 587 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: it's just our community and the culture. If I was 588 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: advising a product, understand not what your market is, but 589 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: what your culture is and what your output is, and 590 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: whether there's a culture around that output, and how to 591 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: mobilize that culture in that community to get something done, 592 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: something that's productive. Larry Harvey, founder cultural guru as well 593 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: as the philosopher, passed away in two thousand and eighteen, 594 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: actually a young age seventy. I know it was very 595 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: hard for you personally, but as an organization, how is 596 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: Burning Man coped with this loss? Well, the first thing 597 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: we did was grieve. We spent most of doing that. 598 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: That was actually in the form of a number of 599 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: celebrations when you have a loss like that so quickly. 600 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: My goal was to allow all of the opportunities for 601 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: the organization, in the community and the friends to gather 602 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: around a conversation around Larry and to celebrate him and 603 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: to talk about him. And tell stories, and by the 604 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: end of I think that the retelling of the stories 605 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: really sort of sealed in a lot of our minds 606 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: how important and powerful the story is of who he 607 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: is and what he brought to Burning Man. The theme 608 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: for the event this year was metamorphosis. That really describes 609 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: the next layer of the process, which was not to 610 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: forget him, not to over reference him, but to look 611 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: to the future and recognize that we need to set 612 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: the culture up, in the organization up so that it 613 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: goes on beyond us. That's my personal lesson. I better 614 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: get to work, because there's things that I intend to 615 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: leave behind better than I found it in the Burning 616 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: Man culture. That was a wake up call. I've always 617 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: been impressed by your calm, even in the most trying situations. 618 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: How did you get that calm? Is that learned or 619 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,439 Speaker 1: is that hereditary? On the one hand, I would say 620 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: it would be from my parents, but both of them 621 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: are known for their strong personalities. I really don't know 622 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: where I got it from, but I do know that 623 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: when I got the call that Larry had had a 624 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: stroke and I was in France, I knew that I 625 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: had to be the one that was gonna be calm 626 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: and was going to be focused. I knew that everything 627 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: was about to change. He was the yang to my yang. 628 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: Often he would have strong opinions about things, and I 629 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: would be the one to sort of calm him down 630 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: and point in a particular direction. Burning Man actually taught 631 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: me to be strong in the face of a storm. 632 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of this enlightened community at scale. 633 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: This podcast is for marketers and entrepreneurs. What lessons have 634 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: you learned from looking at that enlightened community at scale 635 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: that might be abstible to help them? We need to 636 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: be more playful. We need to be innovative. We need 637 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: to allow more big ideas to the surface, and we 638 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: need to help others manifest them giving people the opportunity 639 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: to think differently, to be themselves if you could, what 640 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: advice would you give yourself in when you first heard 641 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: about Burning Man for the first time. When I first 642 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: went to Burning Man, I was afraid. I was fascinated, 643 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: but I was afraid to play. And I remember observing. 644 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: Once I got through that, I thought, I'm never gonna 645 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: be an observer again. I want to be a participant, 646 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: and I want to pick something up and I want 647 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: to play and I want to learn. So as we 648 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: wrap up, we always give a shout out to the 649 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: person who's the most analytical person, you know that math 650 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: part of the equation, and to the person who's the 651 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: showman of the showwoman, who's just the magician had to 652 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: pick two people who would be your favorite for the mathematician. 653 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: Paul Romer's article the Nobel Prize winning Economist about Burning 654 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: Man really gave me some insight about Burning Man around 655 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: culture and economy. So, magician, I probably can guess who 656 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna say, Well, it would have been Larry Harvey. 657 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: I figured that I had to ask the question. Mary, 658 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: and you have been entrusted with a very special culture. 659 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: It's come a long way since the summer solstice of nineteen. 660 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm certain you and your teammates will continue that evolution. 661 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: And thanks for joining us. Thank you very much, Bob, 662 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: it was great to be here. Here are a few 663 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: things I picked up in my conversation with Marian. One, 664 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: when looking at culture, be descriptive, not proscriptive. It's how 665 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: Larry Harvey first came up with the ten principles that 666 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: drove Burning Man's success and continued growth to communal efforts 667 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: can transcend our differences At burning Man, Marian says a 668 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,760 Speaker 1: common goal and community spirit can forge unexpected relationships. Three. 669 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: Be a participant, not an observer. After Marian first experienced 670 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: Burning Man, she volunteered to help it succeed. This is 671 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: a part of the burning Man culture for everyone involved. 672 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. 673 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a 674 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. This show is hosted by 675 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and 676 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat. Nikkiatore 677 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: for pulling research bill plaques, and Michael Asar for their 678 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch, and of course Gayle Raoul, 679 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped bring this 680 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: show to your ears. Until next time,