1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: As Judy Delosure was a religious studies major in the 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies. She was used to reading about miracles, 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: not seeing them go down in her living room. But 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: one night, Judy witnessed something that sounds impossible. 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: So this guy had a problem. It was like maybe 6 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: one leg was slightly shorter than another, and so they 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: had kind of convinced him that his legs were the same, 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: and he walked fine. 9 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: Judy is living in a house in the mountains above 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz. It's the sight of some unusual gatherings, experimental 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: psychology groups run by a volatile twenty something and a 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: radical young professor. Judy is at one of these workshops 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: and the leaders are working on someone who limps because 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: his legs are different lengths. It doesn't seem like a 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: psychological problem. But when they finish, the guy is walking fine. 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: And everybody's like so serious, and I was cracking up laughing. 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: I thought, this is the most hysterical thing I've ever seen, 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: that these guys are, will you know getting away with this? 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 3: What was so funny about that? 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: Well, it was just funny that it was kind of 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: outside the framework of my reality. 22 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: I think I was skeptical when Judy told me this, 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: but she swears she saw him walk out of that door, 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: magically cured by talking, magically cured by neurolinguistic programming. 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 2: It was kind of like a miracle, And I think 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: that's probably what made me laugh, was going, that's pretty amazing. 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: You know, that's crazy. 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: Wait, how does that work? Though? 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: How do I don't know, but I'm curious to find out. 30 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 4: Take a deep breath in. 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 5: And breathe out. Your conscious mind is going to go 32 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 5: totally away so that I can speak privately on your 33 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 5: unconscious mind. 34 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 6: You can notice that you feel rested, more alerted. 35 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: Content from Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This is Mind Games 36 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 1: Episode two. 37 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 7: I'm Zoe la Scos and I'm Alice Hines. 38 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 5: You don't know how you did it. 39 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 8: You did. 40 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 9: You go into a little time as Tarsia state, and 41 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 9: you're out of it. 42 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: What was going on at Judy's house was one of 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: the very first NLP workshops before NLP was NLP, before 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: it was considered a human technology. 45 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 7: NLP would become a teachable set of mental and verbal 46 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 7: techniques that were honed to change your beliefs and behaviors. 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 1: But back then it was an experiment, a group of 48 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: college kids trying stuff out on each other. 49 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 7: You're going to hear from a number of them in 50 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 7: this episode telling us about this heady time when they 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 7: were open to trying new things and trying to heal themselves. 52 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: NLP didn't just come out of nowhere. It emerged from 53 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: a specific time and place, Santa Cruz in the nineteen seventies. 54 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: Once a sleepy resort town, the city had become a 55 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: magnet for mystics, surfers, rolfers, organic farmers, and Kundalini experts. 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: So when Judy saw her friends magically linguistically fix a 57 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: man's legs using words in her living room, it was 58 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: definitely outside the context of her reality. But new realities 59 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: were business as usual in Santa Cruz. One of the 60 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: guys leading the workshop in Judy's house was none other 61 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: than our very own Richard Bamler. We learned about Bandler, 62 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: the co developer of n L in the last episode. 63 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: His techniques are controversial but seemingly effective. He's secured lifelong 64 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: phobias on stage in twenty minutes. He's transformed people's lives 65 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: in a single session. But figuring out who this guy 66 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: is or was before he became a quick fixed kingpin 67 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: is way more difficult than we thought. We talked to 68 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: many people who knew and worked with Bandler, and we 69 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: got wildly different versions of him. 70 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 10: He had I'm a rough, tough guy kind of an attitude. 71 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 9: He is nothing if not confident. Sometimes you would see 72 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 9: he had a caring side. 73 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 6: Richard terrified me. He just had a presence about him 74 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 6: that was very edgy, and I just wasn't comfortable. 75 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: He struck me as being incredibly brilliant. Hearing people describe 76 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: Richard Bandler, you might think they're talking about completely different people. 77 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: He's a healer, he's an egomaniac, he's a genius, he's 78 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: a predator, and he comes with a lot of lore. 79 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: For example, people say he's a brilliant mathematician and computer scientist. 80 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: Not true, No, not at all. It seems like he 81 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: took some college classes in those subjects, but they weren't 82 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: even his major. 83 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 7: What's funny to me is that today he insists on 84 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 7: going by doctor Bandler, which I tried to fact check. 85 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 7: He has a few honorary doctorates wait from where, well, 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 7: one is from an online holistic University. 87 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 8: Huh. 88 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: The best Bandler stories always do come from Bandlor himself. 89 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: I heard that he can hear radar. Okay, what the fuck? Yeah, 90 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: that sounds very distracting. 91 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 7: Now my personal favorite is that he said he owned 92 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 7: a topless bar at age sixteen and that two years 93 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 7: later he was a millionaire. Also that he has a 94 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 7: black belt in karate. 95 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god. Wait, so he obviously wants to be 96 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: perceived as some kind of tough guy. 97 00:05:58,480 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 7: I think that's very on purpose. 98 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: There's this one story I heard about Bandler. He denies 99 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: what ever happened, like a lot of the other stories 100 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: swirling around his past. But one guy said Bandler supposedly 101 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: cured his own speech impediment as a kid. 102 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 7: This is fascinating because Bangler ended up becoming an expert 103 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 7: in communication using speech for persuasion. 104 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: So the story goes that Bandler was working with a 105 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: doctor on this issue and the doctor asked him, if 106 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: you weren't you, who would you want to be? And 107 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: Bandler said John Wayne. 108 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 7: John Wayne, the actor who played Uber Mask Cowboys, precisely. 109 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: So the doctor tells him to go out and imitate 110 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: John Wayne, and Bandler spends a month watching old Westerns 111 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: and mimicking his voice, including quite possibly a movie in 112 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: which John Wayne cures a kid's stutter. 113 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: Listen to me, you whine and little well, you're gonna 114 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 3: stop that stutter or get the hell out of here. 115 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 6: You're gonna stop it. 116 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 5: Or go home? 117 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 11: Do you hear me? 118 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 6: You goddamn sun up bitch again. You goddamn me, son 119 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 6: of a bit, You goddamn me, Jenny's sound of a bit. 120 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 3: I wouldn't make it a habit calling me that said. 121 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 7: I actually do think John Wayne sounds like Bandler in 122 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 7: this tape. 123 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: What's funny is Bandler is kind of the kid and 124 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: the healer. He's both ultimately. But I think what's really 125 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: key here is the rugged confidence bit. People have told 126 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: me Bandler sort of swaggered around. He did the whole 127 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: physical stick too. 128 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: Richard was a tough guy, you know. He was a 129 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: new Joysey guy, and he was a street kid. 130 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 8: He struck me as looking like a speed freak. He 131 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 8: had a straggling long beard, and his hair was a 132 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 8: mess and dirty, and he was chainsmoking. 133 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: Bandler apparently dressed like a biker minus the bike. He 134 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: was skinny and had a long mustache. One guy told 135 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: me he looked like Dennis Hopper in the movie Easy Rider. 136 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: Bandler liked to imply he'd been in gangs since he 137 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: was a kid, and even told some people he'd once 138 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: been knifed so badly he could basically only eat meat. 139 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: What he could only eat meat, He could only eat meat. 140 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 7: I don't get it. 141 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think this is real. But the idea 142 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: is that he got stabbed in the belly and they 143 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: had to operate and take out some of his intestines, 144 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: so now he can't digest certain vegetables. 145 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 8: Richard did allude to his highly dramatic past, making a 146 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 8: big deal out of taking some medication that he had 147 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 8: in his pocket that he needed, said he needed because 148 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 8: of doing other things in his past. 149 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 3: I know that Richard had very difficult upbringing, and so 150 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: we often say people who can act like a bully 151 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: are usually the most wounded. 152 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: They're the most vulnerable, and Bendler was vulnerable. According to 153 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: one magazine, he would stuff Kleenex in his lunch bag 154 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: when he was in elementary school so other kids wouldn't 155 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: know he didn't have any food. The same magazine reported 156 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: that his mother tried to shoot him a couple times. 157 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: More recently, Bandler told a reporter for The Guardian that 158 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: his stepfather physically abused him, but he said he got revenge. 159 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: When he was ten years old, Bandler deliberately electrocuted his stepfather. 160 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 7: Bandler said he rigged a booby trap that shocked the 161 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 7: guy and he ended up in the hospital for months. 162 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: I find it so perplexing, Alice, that Bandlor would go 163 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: around telling this story, because if it's true, I mean, 164 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: isn't this the sort of thing that you stuff at 165 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: a box and bury the box and hide the box 166 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,359 Speaker 1: and hope people never ever find. 167 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 7: Out unless violent threats are part of your therapeutic persona. 168 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: Despite all the wild stories out there, everyone we spoke 169 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: to agreed on two things. Bandler was brilliant, and Bandler 170 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: was unpredictable. 171 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 2: He was very funny, and he could be very empathetic. 172 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: And he could also be in a snake. 173 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: You know, there are a few things we know for 174 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: sure about Richard Bandler. He was born in New Jersey 175 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty. His dad does seem to have been 176 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: a jerk and left by the time he was five. 177 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: His mom remarried and at some point in the nineteen sixties, 178 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: the family up and moved to Sunnyvale, California, which is 179 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: a sort of middle class suburb in what's now Silicon Valley. 180 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: That's where Richard Bandler went to high school. I wanted 181 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: to understand where he came from, so I traveled to 182 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: northern California to talk to people who knew him in 183 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: his twenties. Sunnyvale isn't far from Palo Alto, and that's 184 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: where Bandler met the family who would change his life forever. 185 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: The Spitzers. 186 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 7: All right, let's meet the Spitzers. 187 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: The Spitzers were pretty out there family. Alice. Bob Spitzer 188 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: was one of the first psychiatrists at Stanford experimenting with LSD. 189 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty seven, he spent ten days in jail 190 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: for blocking the Oakland Draft Center. His kids grew up 191 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: going to rock festivals like Altamont, where the Hell's Angels 192 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: fatally stobbed a member of the crowd. One of those kids, Daniel, 193 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: wanted to play the drums, so Bob hired a local 194 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: team to give him lessons. 195 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 10: I was I think his first drum student. It was 196 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 10: really funn He took a totally different approach to teaching drumming. 197 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: And guess who that teenage teacher was, Richard Bandler. That 198 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: tracks yep, so does the fact that Bandler showed up 199 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: to the lessons with a whole bunch of knives. 200 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 10: He actually carried them in his pocket, and he showed 201 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 10: me a few at different times. 202 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: He had a buck knife, a bowie knife, a switchblade. 203 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 10: I didn't really know what to make of it. I'd 204 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 10: never seen a fighting knife up close at that point 205 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 10: in my life. It seemed more like a pose. 206 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: Bandler was an unorthodox teacher, but he got results. 207 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 10: He had this kind of brash, bold way of approaching 208 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 10: a lot of things, and I was I think his 209 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 10: first drums student. 210 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: Daniel looked up to Bandler, which is why he found 211 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: it odd that Bandler, this older kid, was working so 212 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: hard to impress him. 213 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 10: He had a chip on his shoulder, and most of 214 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 10: my buddies in the sixth grade didn't have chips on 215 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 10: their shoulder like that, and I was surprised that an 216 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 10: older guy felt the need to impress me. And some 217 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 10: of it impressed me, and some of them made me 218 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 10: wonder what was going on with him. 219 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: At the time, Daniel's parents also began to wonder about Bandler. 220 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: They sort of adopted him. 221 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 7: I'm struck by the fact that this family adopts Richard Bandler, who, 222 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 7: even as a teenager, seems like kind of a weirdo. 223 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: I get the impression they were kind of in the 224 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: habit of taking in talented strays. And Daniel's mother reportedly 225 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: had a huge heart. She saw right through Bandler's tough 226 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: guyantics and recognized how bright he was and basically wanted 227 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: to nurture him and his knives. Knives and all Bob 228 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: owned in importance psychology, press and Bandler began working in 229 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: the warehouse. He also got a new place to live, 230 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: the Spitzer's Commune in the Santa Cruz Mountains. 231 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 7: Of course, these people had a commune. 232 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: They had a full fledged commune. There were artists, there 233 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: were musicians. It was also the headquarters of the Gorilla 234 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: midwifery movement. 235 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 7: Fascinating. 236 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, this one radical woman who lived there, Raven Lang, 237 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: helped launch the home birthing movement in California when that 238 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: was essentially illegal in California. 239 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 7: Okay, so all of these people are living together on 240 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 7: this property. 241 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: They're living together, they're raising chickens together. They're farming together. 242 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 12: So when we bought the place, it was at actual 243 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 12: a commune. It was a nudist colony. And I remember 244 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 12: being thirteen and I'm like, yeah, Daddy, buy it, and 245 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 12: always naked people left. 246 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 10: I was too bad. 247 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: Bob Spitzer's daughter Mandy showed me around the property, pointing 248 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: out geodesic domes and former gardens. Walking it was easy 249 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: to imagine this gaggle of renegade geniuses all living together. 250 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 12: This was his magic place where he would come and 251 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 12: smoked up, and he had wonderful ideas, my father did. 252 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 12: Some of them came to Fruition and really did great changes, 253 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 12: and then other ones just kind of spun out and 254 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 12: got a little too out there for anybody to grab. 255 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 12: One to like what like the University for becoming more 256 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 12: fully human that was going to take place. He had 257 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 12: a group of young men here that made pretty terrible 258 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 12: music and they were called the Mysteries. And another guy, 259 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 12: Jupiter it was his name, and he just flung paint everywhere. Yeah, 260 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 12: and my dad sponsored a lot of this, and Richard 261 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,239 Speaker 12: was one of those ideas. 262 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 7: So this place was basically a startup incubator for every 263 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 7: out there new age trend of the sixties, all paid 264 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 7: for by this guy, Bomb Fitzer. 265 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: What's crazy is Bob somehow juggled this menagerie of wacky 266 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: passion projects with his official role in the psychiatry world. 267 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: He was friends and colleagues with all these luminaries rethinking 268 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: what therapy could be at the time. And for Bob Spitzer, 269 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: Bandler wasn't just another larky experiment. He was a protege. 270 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 7: And that's how Bandler got into psych It's how he 271 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 7: started NLP. 272 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: It's nuts. Of all the families who could have semi 273 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: adopted Bandler, the Spitzers were the rare people who could 274 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: give him some tools to deal with his issues and 275 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: introduce him to giants in the field. They basically gave 276 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: him a new identity. 277 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 7: Which was becoming a therapist. 278 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: Yep, tortured kid and alleged cowboy turned after school drum 279 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: teacher slash knife enthusiast, Richard Bandler reinvented himself yet again, 280 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: this time as a therapist. For better or worse. 281 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 6: You know, they wouldn't give me a license to do 282 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 6: therapy because I'm not qualified. 283 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 5: I think that's wonderful. 284 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 7: I've been researching Bandler's early influences in psychology. What happened 285 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 7: was that Bob Spitzer introduced Bandler to his friends and 286 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 7: colleagues in this alt psych movement. And it's here that 287 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 7: Bandler found a new identity. He began to imitate famous therapists. 288 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 7: Some of them lived at this place called Esslin and 289 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 7: Bigser just down the road from Santa Cruz. 290 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: It was the headquarters of the Human Potential movement. 291 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 7: That's a new age effort to remake mankind for the better. 292 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: It was basically a therapy commune therapy cult. Therapy commune 293 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: therapy cult. Okay, I think this might be a yes, 294 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: and let's go with cult adjacent therapy commune. 295 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 7: Okay. So one of the therapists at Esslyn was Fritz Pearls. 296 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 7: Bandler began listening to tapes of Pearls's therapy sessions like 297 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 7: this one. 298 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 5: What do you feel physically? 299 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 2: Hammer hammer hammer hammer Right. 300 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 5: There, gnasituate is hammer hammer hammer mcnises. 301 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 7: Here Pearls is treating a student with stage fright. He 302 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 7: tells her to talk to different parts of herself to 303 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 7: reintegrate them. That was the cornerstone of Gestalt. Pearls is 304 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 7: School of therapy. It was designed to heal the so 305 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 7: called fragmented self. 306 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 13: I want to crack my coast. 307 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 7: I feel confined by the sandals. 308 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 5: Now let your toes talk to the settles. I feel 309 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 5: confined by you. 310 00:17:53,480 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 7: Let me grow, let me go, let me Bandler became 311 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 7: obsessed with Pearls and techniques like this one. He started 312 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 7: imitating Pearls's German accent and mannerisms. But Bandler didn't stop there. 313 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 7: He also began mimicking an experimental psychotherapist named Virginia Satyr. 314 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 7: Satyr's big thing was role playing. She called it family 315 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 7: reconstruction therapy, and she'd guide groups to dramatically re enact 316 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 7: family issues. 317 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 14: And I wonder how you would feel just moving up 318 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 14: to the son of yours and saying to him, thank you, 319 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 14: gotcha now, to take both his hands, and to tell 320 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 14: him that I'm. 321 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 8: Not gonna let you see your mother anymore. 322 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 7: Erin because she heard you, Setier got seemingly magical results. 323 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 7: Families who'd been fighting for years or were traumatized rebonded. 324 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 7: Bandler was dazzled. Here Satyr is on a public accent 325 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 7: that show called Thinking Aloud in nineteen eighty eight, Well. 326 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 11: You focused quite a lot in your lifetime on human potential, 327 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 11: on dealing with people who come from tormented families. You 328 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 11: feel very hopeful that a person's life need not be 329 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 11: conditioned by their past. 330 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 15: Let's think that the human being has countless number little jets, 331 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 15: and if our energy were free to flow, then these 332 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 15: jets were all open and our possibilities, and that when 333 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 15: we allow that to happen, then we become in a 334 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 15: totally different place because we then can have harmony moving 335 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 15: and we have the total force of the energy that's possible. 336 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 15: And that's all I've done with people is open. 337 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 7: You can see how these ideas that abuse doesn't define 338 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 7: you and that feelings can be transformed to unlock new 339 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 7: human potential would appeal to a young Richard Bandler and 340 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 7: they helped form an LP. Ndler would start putting all 341 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 7: of these radical psychotherapy influences together as an undergraduate student, 342 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 7: and he added his own special sauce. 343 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: Richard Bendler arrived at Kresky College in the early nineteen seventies. 344 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: The school was brand new. It wasn't just some place 345 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: to get a degree. It was a radical community experiment. 346 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: I've been researching Kresky and went there on my trip 347 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: to California. At the school, there were no grades or 348 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: academic honors. Some teachers wore jeans, walked around barefoot, and 349 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: others taught cross legged on top of their desks. Everyone 350 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: participated in mandatory tea groups, unstructured forums for sharing and 351 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: conflict resolution. It was weird, even by Northern California standards. 352 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: Other colleges at UC Santa Cruz called it the touchy 353 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: Feely School. It looked different too. The campus was designed 354 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: like a little village on a winding path through the redwoods. 355 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: Most students lived in apartments, others got lumber to build 356 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: their own dorms. Naturally, there was no hierarchy at Kresgy, 357 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: which may explain why an undergraduate with no formal training 358 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: or certification in psychology was allowed, maybe even encouraged, to 359 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: practice therapy on his peers. Bandler began running gestalt therapy 360 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: groups after hours, cribbing heavily from Fritz Pearls and Virginia Cityer. 361 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: He got surprising results. Fellow students cried and had big 362 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: life altering breakthroughs, but Bandler had no idea why. And 363 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: that's where linguistics professor John Grinder comes in. 364 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 6: We heard he had been in the CIA, or at 365 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 6: least that he consulted with them. 366 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: Grinder had been a Special Forces captain stationed in Europe 367 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: during the Cold War, but he also seems to have 368 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: been some kind of. 369 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: Spy while he was in the military. You know, he 370 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: was one of those guys apparently that would you know, 371 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 2: parachute in and get somebody out on the street. 372 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: When Grinder quit the service, he got a PhD and 373 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: his politics did a one to eighty NLP. Trainer Robert Dilts, 374 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: got to know Grinder as one of his linguistic students, and. 375 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 3: So, according to John, he went from being a CIA 376 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: agent to the president of the Communist Party. 377 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: The following year, Grinder organized anti war demos in downtown 378 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz and streaked naked across campus at least once, 379 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: but he drew the line at therapy. Bandler and Grinder 380 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: met in one of the mandatory tea groups and immediately 381 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: bonded over their mutual disdain for talking endlessly on and 382 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: on with no structure or concrete goal. 383 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 7: They thought psychiatrists had no real incentive to cure their patients. 384 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 7: The longer the therapy took the more they got paid, 385 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 7: so people never got better. 386 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: But Bandler knew the rapid results he was getting were 387 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: unique and that they might even appeal to Grinder's Marxist principles. 388 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 3: And it was trying to get John to come to 389 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 3: these groups, and John kept saying, Oh, I know, that's bourgeois, 390 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 3: you know, the people just wallowing in their own problems. 391 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: Bandler finally convinced Grinder to come see what he was 392 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: up to. 393 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 3: But what he saw what Bndler was doing, he was 394 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 3: impressed because he could see that they it wasn't just 395 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 3: having people wallow in their problems, that he was actually 396 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: influencing them and their behavior in very how would I say, 397 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 3: in a very powerful way. 398 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: Bandler needed Grinder, someone who could analyze his ad hoc 399 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: experiments and therapy LARPs and turn them into a codified method. 400 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 7: John Grinder, the linguist, looked at what Richard Bandler was 401 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 7: doing and identified the structure. 402 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: Grinder began analyzing what Bandler was saying, how he was 403 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: saying it, and what he was doing physically to identify 404 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: effective patterns. 405 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 4: Richard was my first real therapist. 406 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: Devor Canter Morton was a student and one of their 407 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: first guinea pigs. 408 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 4: I actually did quite a bit of my personal work 409 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 4: with the both of them that was extremely powerful. 410 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: Devra experienced therapeutic breakthroughs with Bandler and Grinder, but by 411 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: the end of her time. 412 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 4: I plotted revenge. I thought of suing them. I thought 413 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 4: about putting sugar and their gas tanks. 414 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: Devra first met Bandler when they were both volunteering at 415 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: a peer counseling center and Bandler was the trainer. Richard 416 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: Bandler was in there training you. You're both undergraduate students. 417 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: How did he get in the position where he was 418 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: training anyone to work on people with real problems? 419 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 4: I have no idea how that happened. There must have 420 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 4: been some kind of supervision god, you know, hope. So 421 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 4: what were the trainings like? 422 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 10: It was? 423 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: I used the word wholesome, but I used the word 424 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 4: wholesome in contrast to where I feel like it went. 425 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 6: Later, when I met them, they knew what they were doing. 426 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: Jody Bruce met Bendler and Grinder when she enrolled in 427 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: a linguistics course. They were teaching together. 428 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 6: They were developing it with us, I mean, they were 429 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 6: doing their research with us. 430 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: Jody joined the workshops Bandler and Grinder were running off campus. 431 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: The students would arrive and chat a bit, but it 432 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: wasn't a party. They were there to work. Bandler and 433 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: Grinder would make a dramatic entrance and ask the group, 434 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: who wants to make a deep change tonight? A few 435 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: volunteers would step up. They were the patients. Everyone else 436 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: became their doctors. That's who we worked on. 437 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 6: We worked on ourselves with each other, which was pretty 438 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 6: brave now that I say that. When I think about it, 439 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 6: you know, just these other people, these other students who 440 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 6: happened to be interested in the same thing. We were 441 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 6: suddenly bearing our hearts to each other. 442 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: Therapy is everywhere today, but in the nineteen seventies therapy 443 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: was still controversial. So it's pretty radical for these kids 444 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: to be working on each other, exploring new forms of care. 445 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 11: And we did do. 446 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 9: A lot of sharing. 447 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 6: The big phrase that comes back to me as I 448 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 6: think about NLP is. 449 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 3: What stops you from doing that? 450 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 6: So if I said I feel afraid, that would be 451 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 6: dissected into who I feel afraid of and how and what. 452 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 6: I can't tell my father that I'm mad at him. 453 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: What stops you from doing that? 454 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: Jodi Bruce attended the groups with Jim, her boyfriend at 455 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: the time. 456 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 6: It was a lot of work because he would just 457 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 6: he was always trying to serrapize me, you know, and 458 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 6: sometimes I would get frustrated and. 459 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 9: Just say, look, we're just going to have an argument. 460 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 6: Okay, how it goes this is I don't want to 461 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 6: be a chapter in your book. 462 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: And so I think there was that there was. 463 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 6: That part of it, and maybe that's where the word 464 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 6: culty comes in, is that for some people, for this 465 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 6: to work, it needed to be a way of life. 466 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 6: Like I couldn't just say I'm tired, I'm checking out 467 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 6: right now, you know, it would be tired of what 468 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 6: how you know, checking out of what to. 469 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 11: Go to where? 470 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 6: And those probing questions. 471 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: What stops you from being away from being exactly. 472 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 7: What was the point of these questions? It sounds kind 473 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 7: of pushy. 474 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: It honestly sounds so invasive. They would grill you about 475 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: why you feel the way you feel about your biggest 476 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: hangups and issues in front of all your friends. But 477 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: there was actually a point, and the point was to 478 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: help you realize that you actually have way more options 479 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: for how you might feel about something than you might know. 480 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 7: This is the whole control your emotional state thing. Nancy Salzman, 481 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 7: who he met last episode, is a mega fan of 482 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 7: this technique. She used it to get herself through prison. 483 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: And this is where it all began, the idea that 484 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: the way you're feeling is just one way you could 485 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: feel about it, but if you back up, you could 486 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: choose from a whole range of reactions. I asked Evah 487 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: what exactly they were working on. She said it was 488 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: not stuff. It was serious psychic pain, insecurity and trauma. 489 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 8: I remember really stumbling on believing that my father loved 490 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 8: or approved of me at that time. 491 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: To help Devra, Bandler and Grinder performed a family reconstruction. 492 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: This is one of the techniques they got from Virginia Satyre, 493 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: where basically you have people pretend to be the patient's 494 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: family members and then the patient can say things to 495 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: them they might be too afraid to say in real life. 496 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 8: John was sitting in front of me, You would tell 497 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 8: me that he loved me, and then Rich would ask, 498 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 8: well do you believe Do you believe John? No? I don't, 499 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 8: Well is there something that he could do that you 500 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 8: would believe him? And it became pretty clear to me 501 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 8: that it was the fact that I wasn't believing what 502 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 8: he was saying. And the possibility is that maybe my 503 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 8: father was telling me that he loved me in lots 504 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 8: of different ways that I wasn't perceiving. And it was 505 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 8: quite an AHA moment. After that therapy, I called up 506 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 8: my dad and I told him that I realized that 507 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 8: he did love me. He opened his heart. 508 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,239 Speaker 1: At that point, people like Deva were getting results, and 509 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: somehow this experimental therapy clique became cool. 510 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 8: They had a community of followers. I think there were 511 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 8: quite a few women that were enamored with them. 512 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: But another NLPR Don McCormick, said they were kind of insufferable. 513 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 9: When there was a small group of us who were 514 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 9: into this, that's all we talked about, and we laughed 515 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 9: about how we were losing all our friends. We became 516 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 9: unattractive people to be friends with. 517 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: Jim Iiker, another early NLP guy, remembers the group had 518 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: a certain miss. By the time he arrived at Kresky 519 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, people came out of sessions raving 520 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: about the revelations they were having. 521 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 13: Wow, what just happened? That was the most amazing understanding 522 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 13: of behavior I could ever imagine, like learning how speech 523 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 13: is so pattern and it reveals how I think and 524 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 13: how I learn. 525 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: NLP trainer Robert Dilts said the confidence Bandler and Grinder 526 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: exuded was infectious. 527 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 3: Whatever they would suggest, we would co try it. And 528 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 3: there was definitely this feeling you could go in and 529 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 3: clear out the psychiatric word of a hospital. 530 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 10: So it was very much that. 531 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: Kind of feeling that what you're doing here is life changing, 532 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 3: in world. 533 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 7: Changing, That's exactly what Bandler and Grinder tried to do. 534 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 7: Bandler and Grinder actually brought their experimental therapy to NAPA 535 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 7: State Hospital, a psychiatric facility with thousands of patients. 536 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: This is pretty shocking. They were given free reign to 537 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: test their ideas out on extremely vulnerable people. 538 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 7: At the time, one of the problems in these facilities 539 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 7: was that doctors would just slap diagnoses on people, and 540 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 7: then if the treatments didn't work, the patients were deemed incurable. 541 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 6: Right. 542 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: Movies like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest captured the 543 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: general consensus at the time that psych words and institutions 544 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: were essentially prisons. When I asked this one early NLP 545 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: guy who was involved in these experiments but who's now 546 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: a licensed therapist, if he thought what they were doing was, 547 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, a little unethical, he was basically like, hey, 548 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: at least we were trying something new instead of just 549 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: giving up on these people. 550 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 7: But others felt Bandler and Grinder sometimes did more harm 551 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 7: than good. 552 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 8: It was a game for them to see how they 553 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 8: could manipulate and control people, and they could share that 554 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 8: laugh with each other when they could do an induction 555 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 8: on somebody when they didn't know that they were being inducted. 556 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 8: I could tell that they thought it was fun to 557 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 8: have that kind of power over people. 558 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: Deva had her criticisms of Bandler and Grinder, but she 559 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: clearly wasn't completely immune to the confidence they gave off. 560 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: Both Deva and her friend developed a crush on Bandler, 561 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: and they made out with him together after one of 562 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: their sessions. 563 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,239 Speaker 7: Okay, so just FYI making out with a client as 564 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 7: a therapist is a huge ethical breach. 565 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: It does seem like almost everyone in these therapy groups 566 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: was somehow romantically entangled. 567 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 6: We all spent so much time together, we were very 568 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 6: aware of the dynamics of each other's The sex lives 569 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 6: that the partying whatever else. 570 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: Devra, one of Bandler and Grinder's early guinea pegs, was 571 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: down for the atmosphere for the most part, consenting adults 572 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: and all. She was looking forward to the group's nineteen 573 00:32:58,920 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: seventy four Christmas part. 574 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 8: I made the assumption that it was just a regular 575 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 8: Christmas party, so I got myself ready for that by 576 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 8: taking some mushrooms beforehand. 577 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: But this was the night it went way too far. 578 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: The night Deva walked away from Richard Bandler, John Grinder 579 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: and what would become an LP forever. 580 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 8: When I got to the party, I found out that 581 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 8: it was not the kind of party I thought it 582 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 8: was going to be. 583 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: The party was just for the people in Bandler and 584 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: Grinder's therapy clique, and they had prepared an unusual gift 585 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: for each guest. 586 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 8: Each person was called up to the front to do 587 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 8: some work with John and rich and they had a 588 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 8: certain task that they had to do. 589 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: Most of the gifts were playful. Bandler and Grinder had 590 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: Dever's friend was a little cocky chant Oh, and when 591 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: his mouth was open, they both pied him in the face. 592 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: He thought it was hilarious, but when it was Devra's turn. 593 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: They blindfolded her. Vandler and Grinder stood on either side 594 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: of Devra and began speaking simultaneously into both of her ears. 595 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 8: Because I couldn't make sense of what I was hearing, 596 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 8: don't ask for help unless I really need it, because 597 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 8: sometime I might really I really want it. 598 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: And then they led her, still blindfolded, outside. She felt 599 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: them lift her about four feet above the ground. Her 600 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 1: legs were loosely bound and her arms were tied outstretched 601 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: to something wooden. 602 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 8: I still had my blindfold on, and I opened my 603 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 8: eyes and I was standing up there with my legs 604 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 8: and my arms strapped on to a cross. I said, 605 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 8: this is Christmas, not Easter. And I think Richard said 606 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 8: for whom? And I had kind of one of those 607 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 8: icky feelings passing through my body at that time. 608 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: Remember Dever was tripping throughout this. Somehow she got her 609 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: blindfold off and what she saw freaked her out. 610 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 8: All of the people that were in the training workshop 611 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 8: were standing below me in a half moon holding candles. 612 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: Freakier still, they were placing logs below her feet and 613 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: dousing them in later fluid. 614 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 8: So I was prompted earlier in the evening, trust somebody 615 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 8: to keep something that I would need later. 616 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: Deva picked someone she didn't even know, and Bandler and 617 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: Grinder gave that person her. 618 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 8: Gift, which was a knife. 619 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: A knife someone struck a match and set the logs 620 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: on fire. 621 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 7: Just then. 622 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: Devra managed to cut herself free. 623 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 8: And I was angry, just incredibly angry that I'd been 624 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 8: put in that position by people that I had trusted, 625 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 8: that maybe I shouldn't have trusted. I met with John 626 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 8: and Rich afterwards, and I expressed my anger to them 627 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 8: about them putting me in that position, and they maintained 628 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 8: that it was an expression of caring and thoughtfulness that 629 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 8: they put me in this position because this was what 630 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 8: they had intended to help me therapeutically, to take me 631 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 8: out of my victim position, and to give me the 632 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 8: knife to cut myself out of the victim position. I 633 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 8: was angry at them for doing that to me. Ethically, 634 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 8: it didn't seem right. They took my permission as my 635 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 8: therapist to go too far. 636 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: Dev left the group. She never went back. Although she 637 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: became a marriage and family therapist, she says she's never 638 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: used any of the techniques she helped Bandler and Grinder develop. 639 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 8: I decided that I was tired of the hijinks and 640 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 8: the threat to my personal safety, and I decided not 641 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 8: to have anything further to do with either of them. 642 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: It should be noted this is Dever's version of events, 643 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: although Terry McClendon, who was there that night, wrote about 644 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: it in his own book and he told me about 645 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: that evening during my interview with him. Bandler didn't respond 646 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: to questions about this incident, nor did John Grinder. But 647 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: NLP was just getting started. What began as one more 648 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: new age alternative therapy would grow and change, and in 649 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: some applications and in some hands, evolve into something more sinister. 650 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 7: Only a few years after NLP developed, it spread beyond 651 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 7: the mountain communes of Santa Cruz, and it found a 652 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 7: new home in the business world. 653 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: Bandler and Grinder began marketing NLP as a persuasion technology 654 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: that could be used to read people and manipulate them. 655 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 10: How do you recognize how people organize their thoughts and 656 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 10: then work with their language in a way to modify 657 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 10: their thoughts. 658 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: That's sinister, that's next. Online games mind Games is a 659 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: Colidius production in partnership with iHeart podcasts. The series is 660 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: created and hosted by me Zoe Lascas and Alice Hines. 661 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: It's produced by writer Alsop and Dara Luk Potts, edited 662 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: by Kate Osborne, Editorial consulting from Adeza Egan, original composition 663 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: and mixing by Steve Bone. 664 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 7: Fact checking by Aman Whalen from Kaleidoscope. Our executive producers 665 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 7: are Oswaloshin, Mangesh Hattikador, and Kate Osborne from iHeart. Our 666 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 7: executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Etoor