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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 3: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 3: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Paul, Hey Kate. How's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going really well.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about you today because we talk about stress,

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Speaker 2: we talk about relieving stress, and I thought i'd share

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Speaker 2: since we're still getting to know each other, I thought

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Speaker 2: i'd share with you a little bit about some of

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Speaker 2: the various things I end up doing to relieve stress.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you don't think it's weird. A lot of my

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Speaker 2: friends think it's really weird. So both of my daughters

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Speaker 2: have twin twelve year old girls, and both of them

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Speaker 2: have immense anxiety.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they got it from me.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that I've done with the

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Speaker 2: kids since they were tiny, tiny like babies, is drive

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Speaker 2: around mindlessly for hours listening to music. We don't even talk.

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Speaker 2: We just listened to music, blast music. I'm sure it's

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Speaker 2: really annoying to everybody in our neighborhood. So one of

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Speaker 2: my daughters the other night was so beyond stressed.

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Speaker 1: So I drove with.

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Speaker 2: Her for two hours last night, listening to eighties music.

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Speaker 2: Two hours, barely talking, just driving and listening.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you stuff like that?

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Speaker 2: What do you listen to when you're driving in your

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Speaker 2: jeep around the mountains of Colorado?

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Speaker 1: Are you a music guy?

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Speaker 3: I very much am a music guy. What I'm driving,

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Speaker 3: you know, I of course, as people know, I've never

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Speaker 3: listened to a podcast. I have my music playing. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm kind of curious you're driving around with your daughters.

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Speaker 3: I mean, is the bass thumping? I mean, is this

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Speaker 3: like you know, I'll wrap from the nineteen eighties?

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Speaker 2: It is some Okay, it is some hip hop barbecue

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Speaker 2: is what my Pandora's some of that.

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Speaker 1: Which you know, we try to get the clean versions

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Speaker 1: on all of.

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Speaker 2: It, but mostly it's eighties music, as in, like I

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Speaker 2: was just listening to Kenny Loggins by myself. I also

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Speaker 2: do that right before this show, which is now that

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Speaker 2: I'm saying it aloud moderately embarrassing that I do. But

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Speaker 2: I went out for eight minutes and drove all around

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Speaker 2: the neighborhood just blasting Kenny Loggins, who's saying footloose?

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Speaker 4: In case you didn't know, I was going to say,

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Speaker 4: is this like footloose?

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Speaker 3: Or is this like Loggins and Messina from back in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a foot loose one. Yourself, I was

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Speaker 1: born in seventy four.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm a little bit older than you.

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Speaker 2: Not much, though, I know, but I'm young at her

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Speaker 2: I'm very very young at art with music. So I

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Speaker 2: often say my parents live very close to us, and

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Speaker 2: I often say that we're one Taylor Swift song away

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Speaker 2: from my parents, which my kids love. But the music, So,

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Speaker 2: what do you listen to? I'm going to predict old school? Like,

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Speaker 2: are you like a Bruce Springsteen fan? Is that what

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Speaker 2: your genre is?

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Speaker 4: No, you know, I do listen to classic rock.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'll go back and you know the Eagles,

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Speaker 3: you know from the seventies. I graduated high school and

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Speaker 3: the hair bands were huge, so.

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Speaker 4: Def Leppard, Van Halen.

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Speaker 3: You know, so I and I think, you know, when

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Speaker 3: you're in high school, it's such a formative age for music.

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Speaker 3: It really sets the stage for what you'll probably listen

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Speaker 3: to for the rest of your life, you know. But

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Speaker 3: then I do get into some of the heavier stuff,

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Speaker 3: particularly if if I'm working out, or if I'm driving

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Speaker 3: around and I'm just not really happy with the world,

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Speaker 3: then that's when I think or Death Punch comes out, or.

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Speaker 4: Other similar types of bands.

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Speaker 3: But even when I was active, you know, I would

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Speaker 3: frequently be going to various crime scenes for the Golden

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Speaker 3: State Killer investigation, and I'm thinking about the case, but

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Speaker 3: I've got the music going. I think best when I

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Speaker 3: have music. When I take my what I call my

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Speaker 3: old man nap, I put my headphones on and I

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Speaker 3: have my music playing, I never fall asleep.

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Speaker 4: Music is core to who I am.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, me too.

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Speaker 2: And for me, there's two places where I come up

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Speaker 2: with the best ideas or ideas. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: they're the best, but I do come up with ideas,

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Speaker 2: and one is in the bathtub. I think it's the

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Speaker 2: white noise that really helps from the bath, and the

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Speaker 2: other one is driving around and listening to music. It's

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Speaker 2: meditative for me and so healing, and so I think

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Speaker 2: it's I have a lot of contained excitement about this show,

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Speaker 2: and so when I drive around right before the show,

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Speaker 2: it helps me calm down and just sort of get

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Speaker 2: in that good, mindful place to be able to deliver

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Speaker 2: all this information to you. But we do have very

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Speaker 2: different tastes of music, although I do love some death.

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Speaker 1: Upward, I really do.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, you know, this music thing for me is a

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Speaker 2: way to decompress. And I think we're both gonna need

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Speaker 2: some kidney loggins after this episode coming up, because it's

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Speaker 2: very stressful. But it's so rich with forensics that I

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Speaker 2: just see every time I made a note and I

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Speaker 2: what happens on my documents is I have this really

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Speaker 2: intense research document that Maren, our researcher, gives us, and

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Speaker 2: then I add to it, and I have all of

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Speaker 2: these what I call Paul holes highlights where I'm going

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Speaker 2: to tell the story and then I'm going to stop

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Speaker 2: and ask you questions, and there are so many poll

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Speaker 2: holes highlights.

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Speaker 1: I think this needs to be a two parter.

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Speaker 2: So I'm telling you all up front, you better stay

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Speaker 2: committed to this story because this is a two parter

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Speaker 2: and it really is a pretty intense story.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited to present it to you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, let's get going.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, let's set the scene. So this is a

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Speaker 2: case that I know that you've either worked on or

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Speaker 2: heard of, the Jeffrey McDonald case, and I know some

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Speaker 2: of you have heard it also, but this is going

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Speaker 2: to be a little different.

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Speaker 1: So when I say Jeffrey McDonald, what do you think of?

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Speaker 3: For me, I have some familiarity with Jeffrey MacDonald, but

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Speaker 3: it's another horrific case in which an entire family has

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Speaker 3: been killed except for the man, the husband in this case,

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey MacDonald.

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Speaker 4: And the big.

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Speaker 3: Question is he responsible or just like in some other

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Speaker 3: very notable cases, is it the fugitive type of scenario

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Speaker 3: where the one armed man has come in and has

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Speaker 3: committed this crime. And I know there's other details, but

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Speaker 3: the first thing that pops into my head is, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is one of those cases of who did it

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Speaker 3: and what could be done today to prove the case

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Speaker 3: one way or another.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that's interesting about

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Speaker 2: this case is there's so much forensics, but it's nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy forensics, so this is a whole kind of new world.

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Speaker 1: I really live.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen ten to nineteen forty forensics, So this is

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Speaker 2: an area where forensics is growing a lot. So it'll

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Speaker 2: be interesting to see the difference between what investigators did

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy and what you would do now, as

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Speaker 2: well as what a good defense attorney could do to

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Speaker 2: this case. So I think your perspective will be interesting.

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Speaker 2: And often when I present you with these historical cases,

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Speaker 2: every so often we're going to have a case that

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Speaker 2: people have heard of before, not going to do Jack

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Speaker 2: the Ripper. I can guarantee you we're not doing Jack

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Speaker 2: the Ripper, not going to do Jack the River, or

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Speaker 2: we're not going to do Lizzie Borden. But I think

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Speaker 2: every once in a while we'll pop up a case

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Speaker 2: where I just kind of go, boy, I've always read

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Speaker 2: about this, but I've just never been one hundred percent sure.

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Speaker 1: And then that's where you'll be helpful.

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Speaker 3: And the one thing that I will say is, you

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Speaker 3: know this case which happened in nineteen seventy, this is

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Speaker 3: my area of specialty. In terms of the era of

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Speaker 3: cold cases, I worked cases from the nineteen sixties through

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Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies, predominantly Okay, of course newer cases, but

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Speaker 3: in terms of the state of investigative tactics forensics, I'm very,

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Speaker 3: very familiar. In fact, a lot of the forensic testing

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Speaker 3: that was being done in the nineteen seventies. That's what

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Speaker 3: I was trained on when I first started in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen nineties, you know, So that shows how static forensics

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Speaker 3: was for those decades. So I'm very familiar with that,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm very interested to see what you tell

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Speaker 3: me about this case, because even though I'm familiar with it,

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Speaker 3: I really haven't done a deep dive into the forensics,

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Speaker 3: into the crime scene, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Well, it'll be interesting.

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Speaker 2: This is nineteen seventy North Carolina Fort Bragg, so we're

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Speaker 2: on a military base, and you are going to have

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Speaker 2: to fill me in on how military procedure works when

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Speaker 2: they're investigating cases because I know only JAG and it's

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Speaker 2: because it was a good TV series.

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Speaker 1: And that's it.

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Speaker 2: And I was probably like feeding my kids at the time.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not really sure if I picked up on

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Speaker 2: all that much. But I haven't worked on a case

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Speaker 2: that came out of the military where the military actually

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Speaker 2: prosecuted or in this case they actually didn't, but where

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Speaker 2: the military was in charge of the initial investigation.

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Speaker 4: Rather sure.

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Speaker 2: So we've got nineteen seventy North Carolina. This is an

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Speaker 2: interesting era for me. So we're coming out of the sixties,

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Speaker 2: and I like to explain the context of history because

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Speaker 2: actually all of these little details play into this story.

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Speaker 2: So you've got Nixon in office, We're in Vietnam, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, Nixon would order the invasion of Cambodia just

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Speaker 2: a few months after this took place. There are anti

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Speaker 2: war protests, sometimes some very violent ones, lots of clashes

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Speaker 2: between government and protesters and the police and protesters, a

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Speaker 2: lot of tension, a lot of racial tension, and there

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Speaker 2: is a pinning of the so called hippie movement in

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Speaker 2: the sixties against this growing far right movement that's trying

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Speaker 2: to take control of the morals that supposedly have gone

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Speaker 2: awry in America during this time period. What we have

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Speaker 2: is Jeffrey McDonald, who was in the military. He was

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Speaker 2: a captain and a surgeon, so he was a Green

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Speaker 2: Beret trauma surgeon with a military He lived with his family,

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Speaker 2: he had two little girls and a wife at Fort

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Speaker 2: Bragg and they had a house there. And Jeffrey McDonald

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Speaker 2: was fairly nondescript before this happened. I think someone you

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Speaker 2: know who's in a career in the military, seemed to

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Speaker 2: be respectable. When you dig deeper, there are obviously some

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Speaker 2: pretty big issues. But he came from kind of a

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Speaker 2: hearts gravel life. He grew up in poverty. His father

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Speaker 2: was strict, not physically abusive, it sounds like, but certainly

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Speaker 2: verbally abusive. So he was emasculated, I think quite a

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Speaker 2: bit growing up, and you know, ended up becoming a surgeon,

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Speaker 2: and now he's got this lovely family with these two

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Speaker 2: little girls. All of this comes to a head really

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Speaker 2: on the morning of February seventeenth, three point thirty in

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Speaker 2: the morning, because Jeffrey McDonald has called the military police

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Speaker 2: just in utter panic. So he's twenty six at the time,

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Speaker 2: and he has called emergency services and when he's hung

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Speaker 2: up the phone, the police arrived. They come to his

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Speaker 2: house and he's unconscious, so he's laying on the bed.

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Speaker 1: They start looking around.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to wake him up and being very careful

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Speaker 2: because there's blood, and he is laying across the mutilated

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Speaker 2: body of his twenty six year old pregnant wife, Collette.

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Speaker 2: She is laying on her back on the floor of

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Speaker 2: their bedroom, and on the headboard above the bed is

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Speaker 2: the word pig written in blood.

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Speaker 1: So let's just start there. What is the significance of that.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, you set the scene in

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Speaker 3: terms of the politics that were going on at the

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Speaker 3: time coming out of law enforcement. You know, we all

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Speaker 3: know that pig is a derogatory term to refer to

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Speaker 3: law enforcement officers. But I think during this era, pig,

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Speaker 3: even though it is towards law enforcement, probably had a

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Speaker 3: greater meeting to the hippie movement in terms of it

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Speaker 3: was really representative of the government that was trying to oppress,

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Speaker 3: you know, their thoughts of what their rights should be.

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Speaker 3: And so that's what I'm guessing, and I'm kind of curious,

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Speaker 3: you know, backing up a little bit, you said, he calls, he.

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Speaker 1: Calls the emergency services with the military.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but so he's conscious when he calls, and when

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Speaker 3: they arrive, he has now collapsed over his.

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Speaker 2: Dead wife who's on the floor of their bedroom. Right, Okay,

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Speaker 2: what are you thinking so far?

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at a crime scene photo of his wife, Collette,

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Speaker 3: laying on her back in the bedroom, and of course

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey MacDonald is not pictured in the photo, though I

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Speaker 3: see some blood stains that are transferred to her pant

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Speaker 3: legs on the front. I'm looking to see where the

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Speaker 3: phone is and I'm not seeing the phone in the photo,

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Speaker 3: So you know, I'm kind of curious. Was this phone

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Speaker 3: that he used somewhere else in the house and did

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Speaker 3: he have enough capability after he makes his phone call

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Speaker 3: to get all the way back into this bedroom to

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Speaker 3: his wife, and then why is he collapsing at that point?

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Speaker 3: So I need to know more about his injuries and

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Speaker 3: the time frame from the call to the emergency services

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Speaker 3: to the time that they actually arrive at the house.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I think what we're going to find is

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Speaker 2: the blood is going to tell a big story. I

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Speaker 2: think that'll be even the bigger tell for you is

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Speaker 2: where all the blood is, because, right, you would think

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Speaker 2: if he's bleeding, he's bleeding wherever the phone is, but

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Speaker 2: that's not necessarily the case.

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Speaker 3: Something that strikes me is you said he was a captain.

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Speaker 3: He's a surgeon. Yep, he's a Green Beret surgeon. Now

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Speaker 3: I'm not familiar in terms of what type of training

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Speaker 3: a Green Beret surgeon would have outside of the medical

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Speaker 3: school aspects, right, but he's a captain, which tells me

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Speaker 3: he likely graduated medical school. And I believe these doctors

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Speaker 3: start off at that captain rank. I think that's the way,

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Speaker 3: at least at one point of time it worked with

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Speaker 3: the Air Force. So he has not been out of

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Speaker 3: medical school very long. If he's only twenty six years old, right,

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Speaker 3: so he's he's new in the military, but he's also

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Speaker 3: probably been through I'm assuming some level of boot camp,

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Speaker 3: some level of military training, self defense training, firearms training.

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Speaker 4: So he's not just your average Joe.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know if being a Green Bereat surgeon,

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Speaker 3: if he has received any type of Special Forces training

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Speaker 3: that would elevate his skill sets to defend himself. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's going to become important as we move

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Speaker 3: through this case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that his education is really interesting

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Speaker 2: considering where he came from. So he got his undergrad

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Speaker 2: degree at Princeton and then in sixty five he went

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Speaker 2: to Northwestern University Medical School. He graduated from medical school

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Speaker 2: in sixty eight, three years. Okay, is that surprising or

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Speaker 2: is that normal?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think general medical school, that's normal. But then

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Speaker 3: he specializes in trauma surgery.

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Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is he does a one year internship

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Speaker 2: at Columbia Presbyterian in New York, specializing in thoracic surgery.

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Speaker 1: Then he joins the.

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Speaker 2: Army in June twenty eighth of nineteen sixty nine. And

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Speaker 2: this happens February seventeenth, so seven months later. So he's

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Speaker 2: only been a listed for seven months. So this is

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Speaker 2: a little education on what it takes to be a surgeon.

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Speaker 1: I guess.

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Speaker 2: In the military, he did a six week physician's basic

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Speaker 2: training course okay, and then he volunteered to be the

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Speaker 2: Army Special Forces and he became a Special Forces physician.

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Speaker 2: He went to Fort Benning, Georgia, he did a paratrooper training.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't look like he was deployed anywhere. That

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Speaker 2: just wasn't time because this then't happened.

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't sound like he is somebody that is

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Speaker 3: going through and becoming well trained in terms of combat.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think.

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Speaker 4: So, you know, hand to hand combat.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's really what I was trying to figure out is,

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Speaker 3: you know, I have to assess him and his capabilities

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Speaker 3: as we find out what happened inside this house.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me give you some more context.

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Speaker 2: What happened a few months before in nineteen sixty nine

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Speaker 2: was the Manson family murders with Charles Manson. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you remember this, but in blood they sprawled

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Speaker 2: kill all the pigs, and they put pig everywhere. So

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Speaker 2: whomever put pig on this wall, we're assuming Jeffrey McDonald

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Speaker 2: seems like he's trying to emulate what had happened with

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Speaker 2: Manson family.

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Speaker 3: Well, and this is what often this scene is when

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Speaker 3: somebody is trying to stage a crime, they rely upon

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Speaker 3: what they have seen really in pop culture, whether it

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Speaker 3: be in the magazines back in the day, like true

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Speaker 3: detective magazines, or the TV shows or the movies. That's

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Speaker 3: kind of what they rely upon to inform themselves as well,

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Speaker 3: what does this type of crime look like so I

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Speaker 3: can replicate it. They don't recognize that those of us

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Speaker 3: that actually see real crime, go, no, that's not what

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Speaker 3: this type of case is going to look like. But

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Speaker 3: also we have to watch out for the possibility of

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Speaker 3: a copycat type of crime, just because you know, Jeffrey

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Speaker 3: MacDonald is somebody that is under a suspicion early on

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Speaker 3: in this investigation and the parallels to the Manson case,

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Speaker 3: got to assume, Okay, maybe there's some other individuals out

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Speaker 3: there that were inspired by what they saw with the

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Speaker 3: Manson murders and decided to do a similar attack out

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Speaker 3: there in North Carolina. The writing of the word pig,

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Speaker 3: which parallels would happen in the Manson family, there's a

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Speaker 3: certain philosophy behind that word during this time, so this

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Speaker 3: could be an attack that I would say is mission oriented.

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Speaker 3: They are trying to send a message by committing this attack.

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Speaker 3: So that's where you know, as we go through this,

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Speaker 3: I need to start assessing, Okay, what appears to be

351
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Speaker 3: more likely somebody an intruder coming in from the outside

352
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Speaker 3: trying to do this missionary type of attack, or we

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Speaker 3: have a husband who's deciding that he needs to eliminate

354
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Speaker 3: his family for some reason.

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Speaker 2: And part of this is, you know, I go, I'll

356
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Speaker 2: always go back to my father when I would read

357
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Speaker 2: a case and say, well, I really think this guy's guilty,

358
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Speaker 2: and he always said, it doesn't matter what you think,

359
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Speaker 2: what can you prove in court?

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Speaker 1: So this is a little bit of that case.

361
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Speaker 2: What can you prove and what did they think they

362
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Speaker 2: could prove in nineteen seventy.

363
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Speaker 1: Versus would this survive? Would this case survive now?

364
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Speaker 2: And how would it survive in a court in twenty

365
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Speaker 2: twenty two, twenty twenty three?

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Speaker 4: Sure? Okay.

367
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Speaker 2: So they are looking at collect and they searched the

368
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 2: rest of the house and they find McDonald's two daughters,

369
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Speaker 2: five year old Kimberly and two year old Kristen, and

370
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Speaker 2: they're both dead in their bedrooms. Also, So amidst this,

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Speaker 2: police officers walking around, military personnel walking around, McDonald wakes

372
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Speaker 2: up and he starts screaming, Jesus Christ, look at my wife.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to kill those goddamn acid heads. So this is,

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Speaker 2: you know, what we had talked about before that this

375
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Speaker 2: is all pointing to those damned hippies who are ruining

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Speaker 2: the world. And the Manson family murders had had just

377
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Speaker 2: happened five months before, so this is all very familiar,

378
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Speaker 2: I'm sure to police. He goes on and gives an account,

379
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Speaker 2: which is that he was lying on his couch asleep,

380
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Speaker 2: Collette was in her room, the girls were in their room,

381
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Speaker 2: and he has woken up three o'clock in the morning

382
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Speaker 2: to collect screaming, Jeff, why are they doing this to me?

383
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Speaker 1: He says.

384
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Speaker 2: He doesn't even get as far as the bedroom when

385
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Speaker 2: he is confronted by four people in his living room

386
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Speaker 2: at this point, and they're all armed with knives.

387
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Speaker 3: Okay, so he's asleep. Wife wakes him up. He gets

388
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 3: up and these four intruders are already further inside the house.

389
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Speaker 3: I mean they go back to the bedroom. Do we

390
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Speaker 3: know what their supposed point of entry into the house is?

391
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Speaker 4: You know?

392
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Speaker 2: He doesn't say. And I think nineteen seventy. I've said

393
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Speaker 2: this before. We didn't always lock our doors into the

394
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 2: eighties and late eighties. In my house, I imagine they don't

395
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Speaker 2: lock their doors. But what do you think on a

396
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Speaker 2: military base.

397
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Speaker 4: I was going to bring that point up.

398
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 3: On base, there is an enhanced feeling of security just

399
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,199
Speaker 3: because you have a very controlled population in there. You

400
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 3: have military police that are very active at night. So

401
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 3: I could see where, Yeah, people could have just walked

402
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 3: in and there'd be no signs of forced entry anywhere

403
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 3: in this house.

404
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 1: Right, And this is what he says next.

405
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Speaker 2: And I want you to listen carefully to this description

406
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 2: and tell me what you think. So, of course, the

407
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,880
Speaker 2: police say, who are these people? Have you ever seen

408
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: him before? Can you describe him? And this is the

409
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 2: description he gives. Two white men, one black man wearing

410
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 2: an army jacket, and a young woman with a floppy hat,

411
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 2: white boots and a short skirt, carrying a lighted candle

412
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Speaker 2: and chanting acid is groovy, kill the pigs. Have you

413
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 2: ever heard of a witness giving that detail of description

414
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: in the midst of fighting with four people and then

415
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: discovering his wife and two little girls are murdered.

416
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Speaker 3: And I'm assuming there's no lights on in the house

417
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Speaker 3: when this attack occurs.

418
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Speaker 1: I would assume, right.

419
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 3: I think what strikes me is two white guys, black

420
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Speaker 3: guy that has an army jacket on very limited detail,

421
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Speaker 3: but extreme amount of detail focused in on the woman.

422
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Speaker 1: What do you think that means?

423
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 3: Well, knowing a little bit about this case, I get

424
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 3: suspicious about that because there was a woman that would

425
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 3: be seen on a routine basis in the area that

426
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 3: ended up kind of matching this description, Okay, And it's

427
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 3: almost as if he's seen this woman out in the world,

428
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 3: out there on base or outside of base, and knows

429
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Speaker 3: how to describe her. And then the fact that she

430
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 3: fits the description of the acid heads or the hippie

431
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 3: look that he's inserting this woman into this crime.

432
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Speaker 2: And the woman is going to become very important later

433
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 2: on for a couple of reasons. So he gives very

434
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: detailed descriptions and the police write all of this down

435
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 2: and then they say, well, how did you get hurt?

436
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 1: Because he's bleeding.

437
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 2: He says that the three men attacked him with something

438
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Speaker 2: like a bat or a club as well as an

439
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: ice pick until he lost conscious business. So, okay, let's

440
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 2: just think about offenders who are carrying around bats and

441
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 2: an ice pick. Put your mind in the head of

442
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: some sixty radical hippies who are out to send a

443
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: very political message violently.

444
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: Are these the.

445
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,159
Speaker 2: Weapons you would choose or would you choose something different?

446
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 3: You know, that's so hard to say, you know, because

447
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 3: this they can be effective weapons. You have sort of

448
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 3: the force multiplier of multiple defenders present.

449
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 4: So in terms of.

450
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 3: The ability to physically dominate just by sheer numbers, is

451
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: there you have three men and then of course the

452
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 3: woman is there. The choice of weapon I think is

453
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 3: just going to be more predicated on what was available

454
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 3: to the offenders.

455
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 4: Okay, than anything else.

456
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 3: You know, most certainly you could be armed with four

457
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 3: guns with four intruders, you know, but then you have

458
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 3: the issue of noise when you're firing the guns on

459
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: a military base. The clubs, the ice pick. What was

460
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 3: the extent of his injuries?

461
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: So he says that he was attacked with the bat

462
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: or the club and then ice pick. He lost consciousness

463
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 2: and when he woke up, his pajamas were mysteriously torn.

464
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: He had some pretty serious injuries.

465
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: So the doctors later determined he had a collapsed lung

466
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: caused by a puncture wound on his chest and apparently

467
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: he had been stabbed in between two ribs. So that

468
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: seems serious to me. I mean, was he lucky to

469
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: survive that kind of an injury?

470
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 4: But he's only stabbed once.

471
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: It sounds like it.

472
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 2: So he's got some nicks on his hand, he's got

473
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: cuts and bruises and fingernail scratches on his face and

474
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: his chest, but they are not reporting the knicks that

475
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: I thought a lot of times come with stabbing someone

476
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: multiple times, because there's so much blood the knife slips.

477
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: But maybe that's not an absolute rule, and it's just

478
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: a myth I've been perpetuating forever.

479
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 3: Well, when we start talking about stabbing, you know, you

480
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: have a bladed weapon and the victim is trying to

481
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: ward off the bladed weapon. You know, this is where, yes,

482
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 3: you do get defensive injuries on the forearms, on the hands,

483
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 3: on the fingers, And these defensive injuries can be very significant.

484
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 3: Imagine the force somebody is using with a knife in

485
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 3: order to kill. It's not gentle stabbings. There is a

486
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 3: lot of force and these knives will just slice right

487
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 3: through I mean, fingers will be taken off, massive incisive wounds.

488
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 3: A lot of blood is occurring from these defensive injuries.

489
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 4: So it really speaks to the.

490
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: Level of violence and how aware the victim is of

491
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: the attack. And so if I have a victim that

492
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: has numerous stab wounds but no defensive injuries whatsoever, Now

493
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 3: I start questioning, do I have a situation where the

494
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 3: offender is so much more dominant than the victim the

495
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: victim could not fight back, or the victim was rendered

496
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: unconscious or somehow incapable of fighting back. Because anybody once

497
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: they wreck eyes that somebody is now coming at them

498
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: with a knife, they are going to assume a defensive posture.

499
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 3: That's just the way we respond to that type of threat.

500
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: Well, so with McDonald's cuts and bruises and fingernail scratches

501
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 2: on his face and his chest and this particular stab wound,

502
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: is there a world where someone actually did this to him?

503
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: Does that match up? He's got some defensive wounds. It

504
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: sounds like.

505
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 3: What I would like to know is the extent of

506
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 3: the injuries to the wife and the two little girls.

507
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: It's extensive and really sad to recount, frankly, but I will.

508
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 2: So the pathologist came back with the report. Collette had

509
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: been stabbed sixteen times in the chest and the neck

510
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: with a knife, twenty one times in the chest with

511
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: an ice pick, and she was beaten six or more

512
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: times in the head with a club, both of her arms.

513
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: I mean, this still keeps going.

514
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: Both of her arms were broken, and it sounds like

515
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: those were the defensive wounds she was trying to defend herself.

516
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: I mean, is this not the definition of overkill to you?

517
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: Well, you have three different weapons being used, blunt force weapon,

518
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 3: a knife, and an ice pick. The fact that her

519
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 3: arms are broken from blunt force trauma, and she also

520
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 3: has blows to her head that suggests that the first

521
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: weapon used on her was the blunt force object, this club,

522
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 3: because she is assuming a defensive posture, she's being attacked

523
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 3: and she's receiving blows as she's shielding herself from this club.

524
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: Now she's stabbed multiple times with both an ice pick

525
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: and a knife. Yes, she has no incisive injuries to

526
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: her hands, to her forearms which you would typically see.

527
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: So at this point, I think she's been rendered unconscious,

528
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: if not outright killed by the club and then she

529
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 3: been stabbed by both the ice pick and the knife.

530
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: What's going on with the two little girls?

531
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: So five year old Kimberly was just like her mom,

532
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: hit in the head multiple times.

533
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: Five years old.

534
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: She had been hit with such force that her skull

535
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: had shattered, and there were eight to ten knife wounds

536
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: in her neck.

537
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: So this is a five year old.

538
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: I hate retelling these kinds of stories, except I do

539
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: think it's important and this was just terrible. So do

540
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: you want to take these one by one or do

541
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: you want to know about.

542
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: The two year old?

543
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 4: Tell me the two year old, and then I will

544
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 4: I will summarize.

545
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So we have Kimberly who had trauma to her

546
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: skull and eight to ten knife wounds in her neck,

547
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: the five year old. The two year old Kristen had

548
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: one finger that was cut to the bone. Defensive wound

549
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: is what pathologists think that she tried to shield herself

550
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: from the attack. She had more than thirty stab wounds

551
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: on her back, her chest, and her neck, with most

552
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: caused by a knife. Fifteen were from an ice pick also,

553
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: is what they said. So there were stab wounds half

554
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: and I have half on the ice pick.

555
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: So this is several different kinds of weapons.

556
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 4: At this point, I'm weighing the two theories.

557
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: I brought up the intruder with four attackers versus the

558
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 3: husband eliminating his family, and we see the extensive amount

559
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 3: of violence that's done to the wife and the two

560
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 3: little girls. The two little girls are not a physical

561
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 3: threat at all. The biggest threat to the intruders inside

562
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: this house.

563
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: Is who McDonald and why isn't he dead?

564
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 3: So they just hit him in the head a couple

565
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: of times and stab him once and then go and

566
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: inflict this massive amount of trauma on the lesser threats

567
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: inside this house that doesn't pass muster. From my assessment

568
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 3: on the intruder theory, this is more in line with McDonald,

569
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: who I believe probably kills his wife with the club.

570
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: Was the two year old did she have any blunt

571
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: forced trauma to her head?

572
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: It doesn't say that. It says it's all stab wounds. Okay,

573
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: so she's the one who's putting up the least resistance.

574
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 3: Right and she may be asleep. The five year old,

575
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: you know, he goes in. I believe he takes out

576
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: Collette first with the club. He goes in, probably kills

577
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: Kimberly with the club, and is now staging a scene

578
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: to make it look like multiple offenders by using multiple weapons.

579
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: He goes back and then now he's stabbing each one

580
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: and this is where probably the two year old girl

581
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: is being killed. And then he's also using the ice pick.

582
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: Now he has to make it look like he was

583
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: actually attacked. This is where it's like, Okay, the biggest

584
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 3: thread in the house has at least amount of injuries

585
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 3: to him, and he's the one who survives. This is

586
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: where I immediately am suspicious on McDonald going Okay, yeah,

587
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: I mean he's got a stab wound in between the

588
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: ribs that caused his long to collapse. That sounds horrific,

589
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: but it's nowhere knee what the rest of the family experienced,

590
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: so that it's contrary to what I would expect to

591
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: have happened.

592
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 4: If I have.

593
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 3: Four intruders, three men who are now going in and

594
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: in this frenzied attack, I think McDonald would have been

595
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: killed and he would have had as if extensive, if

596
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: not more, injuries than his wife and two little girls.

597
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: I think you could say if there were one intruder,

598
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: he could say, listen, I fought like hell, and the

599
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: guy gave up and left, and that's how I end

600
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: up with these scratches on my hand. I fought hand

601
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: in hand with this guy. He left, That's how I survived.

602
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: But with four people take out the woman, three people,

603
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: there's just no way that's going to happen, no.

604
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: You know.

605
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 3: And when you look at the scratches that he has,

606
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 3: where's he getting those from? You know, if he's not

607
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 3: doing them to himself, he's getting those from his wife

608
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: when he's attacking her.

609
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: So this is what's interesting. There are a couple of

610
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: things I think that are interesting here. Let's put your

611
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: profiler hat on real quick. So if you are in

612
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: the head of Jeffrey McDonald and he is trying to

613
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: essentially set up hippies from the sixties who are high

614
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: on drugs, acid and out of their minds and wanting

615
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: to make this political message happen in his house, he

616
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: is using all of these different weapons. So he's you know,

617
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: thinking this through. So is this overkill anger on his part?

618
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: I want to eliminate my family or is this overkill?

619
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: I am trying to show just how screwed up these

620
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: hippies really are. Do you think there's a level of

621
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: anger that you see? Can you do this to your

622
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: kids and not be angry? I mean, can you be

623
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: that cold hearted?

624
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: There are plenty of offenders that do it because they

625
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 3: want to change their life. It's not out of anger. Yeah,

626
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: their motive is they want to change their life. You know,

627
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: whether that is because they want to move on to

628
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: a different relationship, there's financial reasons. From my perspective, the

629
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: extent of the injuries on Collette and the two little girls.

630
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 3: Number one was to ensure that they were killed. Number

631
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: two was to replicate what was done in the Manson

632
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: family murders, and so this is part of the staging.

633
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: This is why there's multiple weapons being used.

634
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: Do you think there were a couple of fatal stabs

635
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: and then the rest was performative on his part or

636
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: do you think this was just unleashed emotion. I'm trying

637
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: to figure ouf there's a motion in these results, or

638
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: if this purely was performative for the police, for the investigators.

639
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: If I were to and it really is somewhat of

640
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: an educated speculation, but you know, when we start talking

641
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 3: about is there an anger retaliatory type of crime being committed,

642
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: I would say yes. On Collette, something may have touched

643
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: him off that night and he attacked her, violently attacked

644
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: her with the club. Now he may have pre planned it,

645
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 3: you know, because maybe he is trying to, you know,

646
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: change his life circumstances. When you look at the stab wounds,

647
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 3: and I'm you know, looking at you know, stab wounds

648
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: and the distribution to the little girl's bodies, both of them,

649
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: they are very tightly clustered. You know, it's not like

650
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: it's all all over the body like you know, you

651
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: have multiple people who can only gain access onto these

652
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: tiny little bodies in order to stab them. These stab

653
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 3: wounds are clustered in you know, like a three inch

654
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: circle in this girl's neck, et cetera. The one girl

655
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: has a little wider distribution of the stab wounds on

656
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: her back. But this shows that they obviously could not

657
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: put up any resistance and may not have even been

658
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: aware that their life was being taken away from them,

659
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 3: if they were even awake at the time that the

660
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: violence started on them. So this in all likelihood with

661
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: the little girls, these were elimination homicides, and the number

662
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 3: of stab wounds in part was to ensure, like the

663
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: tight cluster of stab wounds to the one girl's neck,

664
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: it's to ensure that she's killed. But then there may

665
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: be a performative aspect to try to show a level

666
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: of frenziness to try to support the acid heads coming in.

667
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, four of them too. Okay, So let's talk about

668
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: those weapons. The police look around the house and they

669
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: find the weapons. They collect a knife from the master bedroom,

670
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 2: and they find a club and an ice pick in

671
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: the backyard.

672
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: All of these came from the McDonald house.

673
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: Now, before you comment on that, Jeffrey McDonald said that

674
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 2: when he came to briefly long enough to call emergency services.

675
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: He went into the bedroom and he found Collette. He

676
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: took the knife out of her. She had a knife

677
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: stuck in her. He took it out, which is why

678
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: the police didn't find the knife in her. He tried

679
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: to resuscitate her, it didn't work. He picked up the phone.

680
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: He called emergency services. So the weapons are all there.

681
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 3: Everything is there, and the source of the weapons was

682
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: from inside the house, right, all of them now intruders.

683
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: When I've worked homicides or even serial sexual assaults, the

684
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: offender often will equip themselves with a weapon from inside

685
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: the victim's own house. Joe DeAngelo did that, you know,

686
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 3: he would go in and grab a knife out of

687
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: the kitchen drawer before going into the women's bedroom.

688
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 2: It seems so risky, Paul, Doesn't it seem risky to you?

689
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: Why not bring your own weapon?

690
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: Well, in part, you can go into any house and

691
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 3: find something to kill. So these offenders have the confidence

692
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: that they will be able to find something, whether it

693
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: be a bludgeting weapon, whether it be a knife, whether

694
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 3: it be strangulation, you know, cordage, they will be able

695
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 3: to find that it's riskier to the offender to be

696
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: out prowling in the middle of the night carrying a weapon,

697
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 3: you know, because if they are contacted by law enforcement,

698
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: now they have some explaining to do. So this is

699
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 3: where individuals, you know, oftentimes individuals that have criminal experience

700
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 3: maybe have been caught, they're on parole. They can't risk

701
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 3: being found with a gun on them or a knife

702
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 3: on them, So it makes sense they rely upon what's.

703
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 4: Going to be present in the victim's house.

704
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: So the fact that these weapons all came out of

705
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 3: the McDonald's house, for me, doesn't differentiate the intruder versus

706
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: the husband theories. But it is interesting, you know, in

707
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: terms of they're all in the house, and where were

708
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: these weapons supposedly located prior to the crimes. How much

709
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: did the intruders have to search for these weapons to

710
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 3: find them.

711
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: That'll be interesting too, because his theory about these hippies

712
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: is falling apart really quickly.

713
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: The investigators don't believe him.

714
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: They contact the Criminal Investigation Division of the Army, which

715
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: is the CID, and they soon charge him with a

716
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: murder of Collette and Kimberly and Kristen. I know zero

717
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: about the CID I put you in charge of that.

718
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: Did you do any research?

719
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I've worked with military investigators and forensics

720
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 3: people over the decades, so I am familiar with how

721
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 3: they operate, how they approach cases, as well as their

722
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 3: training and experience. And the unfortunate aspect with relying upon

723
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 3: for a case like this, relying upon CID and whatever

724
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 3: forensics personnel who responded out to the case is this

725
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 3: is well above their experience and expertise levels. You think

726
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 3: about where these investigators and crime seeing personnel come from

727
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 3: out of the military, Well, there are people that went

728
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: into the military and then they specialized. How many cases

729
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 3: are occurring like this on military basis, Yeah, very very few,

730
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: and so this may again I'm just I'm guessing, but

731
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 3: it's an educated guess. This may have been the very

732
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 3: first multiple homicide case any of these investigators or CSI

733
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 3: personnel ever worked at that point in time. The individuals

734
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: that I've known in the military have always been well intentioned,

735
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: and you know, they really try hard. They just don't

736
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 3: have the same level of experience or expertise that homicide

737
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 3: investigators or csis in your busier cities than civilian population

738
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 3: have and this is where the military needs to do

739
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 3: a better job. When they get a case like this,

740
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: they need to pull in the experts. And the experts

741
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 3: are not other military people, nor are the experts the FBI.

742
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: In a case like this, you need to pull in

743
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 3: from your local law enforcement. If you have a reasonably

744
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: sized city with experienced people nearby, they should be the

745
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: ones that are coming in and minimally at least advising

746
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: and watching and making sure things are being done right

747
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: from both the documentation and evidence collection as well as

748
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 3: the early investigative steps. But that is what rarely happens

749
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: on military installations.

750
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: So all that you were saying seems to turn out

751
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 2: to be true with this case. The investigation itself has

752
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: a huge amount of physical evidence, which is wonderful for them.

753
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: The problem is that they miss some things and some

754
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,959
Speaker 2: things have become corrupted and it's a big problem for

755
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: the military's case against Jeffery MacDonald.

756
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the bits of evidence.

757
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of blood on Jeffery McDonald's glasses,

758
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 2: just a tiny fleck of blood, and at this point

759
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: they don't know who it belongs to. He has left

760
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 2: a footprint and we could tell just from his shoe size,

761
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: or somebody has in Collette's blood. But he could explain

762
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: that away by saying, you know, when I was walking around,

763
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: this is just what happens. And I'm assuming they could

764
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: match the footprint to his How reliable is that going

765
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: to be a footprint to his footprint?

766
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: What do you think? I know? Does it come back

767
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 1: to the sample, like we always say it really does.

768
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: It comes back to the quality of the evidence. If

769
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 3: you have a bloody footprint, let's say, on a good

770
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: surface where you don't see a lot of distortion, you

771
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 3: might be able to say, well, this footprint is within

772
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: the size range of the suspect or of Jeffrey McDonald.

773
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 3: In this case, it is possible that in that bloody

774
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: footprint there's ridge detail. The bottoms of your feet and

775
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 3: your toes have the same types of ridge detail that

776
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: your hands do, and they can be you to do

777
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 3: a comparison. So if I have somebody who's left a

778
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: bloody footprint at the scene where I have ridge detail,

779
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: then I'm going to be getting inked footprints from the

780
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 3: suspects and having a latent print examiner or a fingerprint

781
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: examiner do a comparison to say, hey, can we eliminate

782
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 3: or is it somebody? Is this person's ridge detail matching

783
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 3: up with the evidence, So it really depends, you know,

784
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 3: on what they have. I've seen cases in which they're

785
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 3: trying to do a comparison of bloody footprints or shoeprints

786
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 3: on carpeting, and it's like, no.

787
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: No, Now, this is just an odd question. But does

788
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: your footprint somehow correlate to your handprint? Like, could they

789
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 2: match you, Paul Holes your handprint with your footprint?

790
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: Is there?

791
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 4: No?

792
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 3: No?

793
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: Okay, so they're everything's unique, But would your left match

794
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: with your right foot?

795
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 4: No? You know.

796
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: And we had a previous episode when I talked about

797
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: the extreme variability of ridge detail and fingerprints.

798
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 4: The same thing is is with footprints.

799
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: It's just that we rarely get rich detail in footprints

800
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 3: at a crime scene, and we don't have databases of footprints,

801
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 3: you know, for law enforcement, because that's that's such a

802
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 3: rare form of evidence.

803
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 4: But it is just as as varied from person to person.

804
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 3: But it falls under the same issues when it comes

805
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 3: to well how strong can an expert state, how unique

806
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 3: is that footprint? Does it identify the person or can

807
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 3: you put a statistic on it. It's very rare, but

808
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: just like DNA, it's very rare, but they use statistics

809
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 3: and that's where some of the criticisms with the fingerprint

810
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 3: science has been over the years.

811
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: Now, So speaking of fingerprints, we're going to talk about

812
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 2: fingerprints in a second. More evidence they collected was a

813
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: tiny bit of a surgical glove that was found underneath

814
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 2: the headboard where pig was written in collet's blood.

815
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: A little bit of a surgical glove.

816
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: Of course, we know he's a surgeon, and there is

817
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: a supply of gloves found in the kitchen, okay, And

818
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 2: they theorize that Jeffrey MacDonald, after the murders are done,

819
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 2: he puts on these gloves so that he can, of

820
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 2: course avoid having any sort of fingerprint in the pig.

821
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: I wonder if he actually would it make sense for

822
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: him to use those gloves during the murders, And that's

823
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: why they're not reporting that he's got lots of little

824
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 2: nicks from the knives or the ice pig.

825
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: Well, it's possible, and the fact that you only have

826
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 3: a fragment of the glove tends to indicate that that

827
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: glove was subjected to some force, yeah, you know, versus

828
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 3: you know, after everybody's killed in the house and now

829
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: he's putting gloves on in order to write the word pig,

830
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: you know, unless in haste he you know, rips the

831
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: gloves off and they do. They can tear depending on

832
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: what kind of surgical glove it is. If it's just

833
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: your simple latex glove, yeah, they can very easily tear.

834
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: But that can be a very critical item of evidence

835
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 3: because it's possible that the wearer of that fragment has

836
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 3: left the DNA on one surface of that fragment, and

837
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: in this day and age, we could potentially go after

838
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 3: that DNA and see, you know, is it just Jeffery

839
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 3: McDonald's DNA or do we have foreign DNA on that

840
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 3: fragment of the glove.

841
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: So the latex so a latex glove would be a

842
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: good I don't know if you call it conductor, what

843
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 2: would you call it for DNA? It would have sticky

844
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 2: DNA on it.

845
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: Is that wrong? That's going wrong. That's why I do

846
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: the show, folks.

847
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: Gloves are an amazing form of evidence if they've been

848
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 3: left behind. You know, you think about an offender wearing

849
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: a glove, whether it be latex or leather gloves. You

850
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 3: know their hands are inside those gloves. So in this

851
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: day and age, the sensitivity of the DNA process can

852
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: pick up the wearer's DNA on the glove. In addition,

853
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: when you're wearing gloves, if you're nervous going to be

854
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 3: committing a crime like this, say you might be sweating,

855
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 3: You're you're wiping, you know, your forehead with that gloved hand,

856
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 3: so now you're transferring DNA to the outside surface of

857
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 3: the glove. I've even got a case in which the woman,

858
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 3: the victim, bit down on the glove that the man

859
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,479
Speaker 3: had on when he was strangling her, and she left

860
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 3: her bite mark on the glove and her DNA. So gloves,

861
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 3: you know, on one hand, you go, hoh, they may

862
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 3: not have left any fingerprint evidence in the scene because

863
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 3: they thought ahead to wear gloves. But there's so much

864
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 3: evidence if you have a glove or part of a

865
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: glove in this case left behind, that could be critical

866
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: to helping solve the case.

867
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: But in nineteen seventy I don't think it was particularly helpful.

868
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 2: Do you remember wearing nineteen seventy pole, I think it

869
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: was useless for them, they could only say that somebody

870
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: wore those gloves during what they think happened.

871
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: During the crime.

872
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: Well, sure, you know, they were so limited with the

873
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 3: type of testing. You know, they may have been able

874
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 3: to determine if there was blood on the glove, but no,

875
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 3: they would have been limited, very limited. They would not

876
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 3: have been able to try to identify a source. You know,

877
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 3: like even with ABO tes, you're not going to get

878
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 3: ABO results from such a small amount of material on

879
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 3: the outside of this glove or the inside of the glove.

880
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 3: But this is something where it's a homicide. It's quite frankly,

881
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 3: this is a quadruple homicide because Collette was pregnant and

882
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: this is that type of evidence that if this was

883
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 3: an unsolved case that should have been preserved to this day,

884
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: and it would be that fragment of glove would be

885
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 3: something one of the things that I would really be

886
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: focusing in on to do DNA testing.

887
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: So let's talk about blood, because blood is this is

888
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 2: one of the most interesting parts to me.

889
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: So listen to this.

890
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: There's an unequal distribution of blood throughout this crime scene.

891
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 2: And what makes this so unique is you know, there's

892
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: no DNA analysis so they can't say definitively, this is

893
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 2: Jeffrey's blood, this is Collet's blood, this is Kristen's blood,

894
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: and they aren't able to pull that apart. In nineteen

895
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: seventy in almost all cases for people in the same house,

896
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,959
Speaker 2: somebody is going to have the same blood type because

897
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: they can do blood typing. But here's the trick with

898
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 2: this case. All four of them had different blood types,

899
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: so they knew exactly where everyone was because everyone had

900
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: a different blood type in that house. If there are

901
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: only four people at this crime scene.

902
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 3: Now when you say different blood types, are you saying

903
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 3: just ABO system.

904
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: Yes, So they were all distinct and they were able

905
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: to point exactly where the blood was at each Okay,

906
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: they knew where Jeffrey was. They knew, and they had

907
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 2: not really been able to do that with other cases.

908
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: Because statistically sounds like that's an anomaly.

909
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 4: Well, that would be an anomaly.

910
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: I'm right now, you know, I'm spinning through my head

911
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: the inheritance aspects of the ABO system and trying to

912
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 3: determine because this right now, the assumption is that Jeffrey

913
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 3: MacDonald is the father of the two girls.

914
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, God, Paul, don't go down this area. I know,

915
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: it makes sense. You're right.

916
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: No, I hadn't even thought about that, of course, or

917
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: that she's the mom, or maybe she's the mom.

918
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows.

919
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: So this was beneficial. Four distinct blood types was beneficial

920
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: because here's the scene. So I'll just explain where the

921
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: blood is everywhere, and then you could tell me, you know,

922
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: and just let's just assume, all things being equal, that

923
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 2: Jeffrey McDonald is the father of the two little girls,

924
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: Kristen and Kimberly, and Kalit is the mother, and so

925
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: we've got four different types of blood out there.

926
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: Jeffrey McDonald says that.

927
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: These four hippies attacked him in the living room. There's

928
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 2: very little, if any blood in the living room at all.

929
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: There is his blood in the cabinet near the cabinet

930
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: where the surgical gloves are being stored, and in the

931
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 2: whole way bathroom next to the sink. Okay, now what

932
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: does that mean for the gloves If he's bleeding. Oh

933
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: now I'm excited. So if he's bleeding, why is he

934
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: going and getting gloves on?

935
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 3: Well, he's a surgeon, so one possibility is he's recognizing

936
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 3: that he has a stab wound in which has penetrated

937
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 3: into his thoracic cavity. And you know, part of first

938
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 3: aid when you have a sucking wound where you know

939
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 3: you need to prevent your lung from collapsing, is to

940
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 3: put an exclusive like plastic material over and maybe his

941
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 3: first thought was, oh God, you know my lung is collapsing.

942
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: Now I need to put the glove over it. So

943
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: there's an innocent explanation under the circumstances. But at the

944
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 3: same time, we've also got the word pig written apparently

945
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 3: by gloved fingers, and then there's a fragment of the

946
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 3: same type of glove found in that proximity of that,

947
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 3: and so go, oh, maybe this is when this bleeding

948
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 3: is showing, you know, his after violence, his now staging

949
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 3: of the crime scene and recognizing, well, I'm not going

950
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: to write, you know, the word pig using bare fingers,

951
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 3: you know, because I'll have blood transferred onto me and

952
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 3: then I might leave bloody prints.

953
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 4: I need to put gloves on so you can see where.

954
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 3: Now there's there's two explanations, and each explanation kind of

955
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: points in a different direction.

956
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 2: So I'm going to end this part one of this

957
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: episode with the distribution of blood. Distribution of blood in

958
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: this case is all of the blood is in the

959
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: two bedrooms. There is a ton of Colletes blood in

960
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: the master bedroom, but her blood is also in Kristen's

961
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 2: bed and one of the girls has brain matter at

962
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 2: the entrance of her parents' bedroom.

963
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: So how would all of this happen.

964
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 2: There's no blood anywhere else, with the exception of Jeffrey

965
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: McDonald's blood. You know, in the two places we discussed,

966
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: everything is in the bedrooms. Wouldn't four hippies be tracking

967
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: blood everywhere after such a violent scene?

968
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 3: Well, you know, part of understanding how a crime scene

969
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: changes in the very early stages after violence is Yes,

970
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 3: you would think if there is a ton of blood

971
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: that is on the floor and you've got four people

972
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 3: who are now frantically running from room to room, that

973
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 3: there would be a lot of blood being tracked around.

974
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: But many people don't take into account that a lot

975
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: of the blood, like I'm looking at crimes photos around Cassette,

976
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 3: a lot of the blood that's on the floor is

977
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 3: what came out of her as she laid there over time.

978
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 3: It wasn't necessarily there at the time. The offender or

979
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 3: offenders are walking around her body, you know. So this

980
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 3: is part of, you know, just having the experience and

981
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 3: thinking about, Okay, what was present when the offenders were there,

982
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 3: and then how has the crime scene changed, not only

983
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: purposely by first responders or family members, but also just

984
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 3: due to the passage of time.

985
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 4: How does that change?

986
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 3: And I've been at crime scenes where I'm looking at

987
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 3: a body laying in the middle of the street, I'm

988
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: watching the blood pool form and I'm watching the blood

989
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 3: flow start to go down the street, you know, and

990
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: then the insects coming and everybody else.

991
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 4: So I've seen that type of evolution.

992
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 3: So as I'm looking at this going, Okay, if you

993
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: have four offenders inside this house, the girls, the two

994
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 3: little girls, the blood is isolated pretty much to the bed.

995
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 3: I see some blood that has flowed down onto the

996
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 3: floor on the older girl's bedroom, but again that's after

997
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 3: a passage of time. The distribution of Collette's blood. This

998
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 3: is where, Okay, what is Jeffrey McDonald's statements about his

999
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 3: movements after he's gone and touched Collette he's laying on

1000
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 3: top of her. Did he go over and check on

1001
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: his daughters? He's possibly transferring Collette's blood just due to

1002
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 3: him checking on his daughters after he wakes up. The

1003
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 3: brain matter is something where okay, who's you know which

1004
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 3: daughter it was? It must be the five year old

1005
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 3: because she's the one that has the crushed skull injuries.

1006
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 3: This also is something that could have been deposited during

1007
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: a beating on the offender.

1008
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 4: Let's say it's McDonald and because it's a kind of.

1009
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 3: A chunk tissue, as he's walking, it just drops off,

1010
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 3: and it just coincidentally drops off outside the bedroom or

1011
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 3: he brushes it off.

1012
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 4: So there's so many different explanations.

1013
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 3: I don't think with what I'm seeing and what you're

1014
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 3: telling me that there is a enough blood path evidence

1015
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 3: that really can be used to reconstruct much about this crime.

1016
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: Well, and this is the tease I'm going to leave

1017
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: you with. So much went wrong with this investigation that

1018
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 2: the army, the CID said, we can't hold him, we

1019
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: can't charge him. He's free to go. So this has

1020
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 2: been such a good case. And next week we'll discuss

1021
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: what ends up happening with Jeffrey McDonald.

1022
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: So we'll see you.

1023
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 4: Then, all right, sound good?

1024
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1025
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1026
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones Sources.

1027
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1028
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1029
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1030
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1031
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1032
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1033
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1034
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: buried Bones Pod.

1035
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1036
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1037
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

1038
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1039
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now