1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: and courtse creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Term career goals. 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: This episode is airing at the end of May of 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. I am going to be interviewing Lorena Yee, 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 2: who is a senior partner at Mackenzie, the consulting firm, 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: and who is also the co author of The Broken Wrung, 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: which is a book about how fewer women than men 18 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: get that first promotion into manager. 19 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: So I know there's been. 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: A lot of discussion out there of why are there 21 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: not more women in senior leadership roles, and the authors 22 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: of this book have done the research sort of tracing 23 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: it back to that initial first promotion that women are 24 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 2: significantly less likely to get. 25 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: And so the book talks about ways to deal with that. 26 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: There's obviously a. 27 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: Lot that organizations can do, which they have suggestions for that, 28 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: but also about what you can do personally to make 29 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: sure that you are positioned as well as possible to 30 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: be forefront of mind as people are considering promoting someone 31 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: into management, how you can show that you have the 32 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: experience to take on a new role, sort of some 33 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 2: strategic ways to organize your career with that in mind. So, Sarah, 34 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: you've certainly observed there aren't even though women are what 35 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: half of medical school classes now, I mean, there still 36 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: aren't that many women in senior positions and like hospital 37 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: leadership and things like that. 38 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. 39 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: On the administrative side, I don't see that to be 40 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 3: the case, meaning like the non physicians, we actually have 41 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 3: a lot of like senior female leadership, which is cool. 42 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: I don't feel like I see as many women kind 43 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: of go the directorship role. I do feel like this 44 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: has improved the ratios even in the time since I've 45 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: been in practice. 46 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: And why might that be? 47 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: I mean, unfortunately, I think some of it is just 48 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: like I mean, I think back to my division when 49 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 3: I joined and they had one male amongst all women 50 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: in my group, and he was like the director even 51 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 3: though he was like almost fresh out of training, and 52 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 3: I just think there's just such a and he was 53 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: a great guy, by the way. I don't think it 54 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: was like a bad hire, but I do think there's 55 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 3: like still this bias of like when you're looking around 56 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: the room to see who should be in charge, like 57 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: people instinctively tend to look for the y chromosomes, and 58 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 3: like that's hopefully going to keep getting better and better 59 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 3: because it's like disappointing. 60 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and hopefully that will change in a 61 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: lot of places too. I'm curious you do a lot 62 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: of forward looking planning. I know you've made like sort 63 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: of ten year goals and five years old. Do you 64 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 2: think a lot in terms of how to sort of 65 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: strategically position your career to get to those things, you know, 66 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: five and ten years in the future. 67 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: My story is a little different because I guess I 68 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: sort of made the decision that I prefer not to 69 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 3: be in a leadership role at least at this phase 70 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 3: in my life, like within my medical career, like I 71 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: enjoy more just being an individual contributor and like mentoring 72 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: and trying to do the best I can. But like 73 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: I don't like middle management, I guess, is what I learned, 74 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 3: And I don't like trying to serve competing interests, like 75 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: I don't like not making people happy, I guess. So anyway, 76 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: I like decided, you know what, I'd rather work for 77 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 3: myself and have growth on that side, and then on 78 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 3: the other side be more of a like contributor, a specialist, 79 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: a worker. So I mean, I don't do that much 80 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: thinking about growth. I think more about what could maybe 81 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 3: be different or new angles of expertise, Like I do 82 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: love mentoring other physicians, and I know I've made a 83 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: difference in some of my colleagues and like how they 84 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 3: do their work and like their productivity, and like kind 85 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: of how they feel about their work, and so I'm like, wow, 86 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 3: that would be fun to kind of leverage that someday 87 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: going forward. But I don't think a lot about like 88 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: climbing a ladder, if that makes sense. 89 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's no real ladder in my organization. As 90 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: I were, I'm at the top wrong already. 91 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: But as I think about my career, I yes and no, 92 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: do I think long term strategy about it. I do 93 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: kind of think of sort of slow growth in lots 94 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: of ways like keep building up the audience. 95 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: What could I do next to bring in the audience. 96 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: But a lot of it is just trying different things, 97 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: and it's like the number of times at bat you 98 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: can have right, Like I'll put this product out into 99 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: the universe and see what people think of it, and 100 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: then I'll try something else and maybe something will be 101 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 2: amazing and take off. But I think it is good 102 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: for us to spend some time thinking about it because 103 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: part of taking our career seriously is think about, Okay, 104 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: well I'm going to be in this long term, what 105 00:04:58,200 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: do I want it to look like. You know, I 106 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: Am going to be doing something professionally ten years down 107 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: the road, So let me treat it seriously and get 108 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: to that point. 109 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: So I'm excited to see. 110 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: What Lorena has to say. So here we go with 111 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: Lorena ye author of The Broken Wrong. Well, Sarah and 112 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: I are delighted to have Lorena Yee joining us today. 113 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: Lorena, welcome to the show. 114 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. 115 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you here. 116 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: So maybe you could tell our listeners just a little 117 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: bit about you, who you are, your career, that sort. 118 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: Of thing, sure. 119 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 5: I work at McKenzie and Company, and over the last 120 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 5: twenty five years I've been working in the technology sector, 121 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 5: really on client services, helping companies grow and innovate through 122 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 5: using technologies. And about fifteen years ago I started what 123 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 5: was a side hustle project which clearly became a lot more, 124 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 5: which was to use the tools and analytics in ways 125 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 5: that we think about organizational change at mackenzie and apply 126 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 5: it to one of the hardest questions in the world, 127 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 5: which is how is it that we start with gender 128 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 5: equity and education but don't land there in the workplace? 129 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you've been doing a lot of different 130 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: research projects related to this, and this has actually sort 131 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: of informed your career at mackenzie, right, I mean you 132 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: led some of the early diversity and inclusion initiatives there. 133 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: Correct. 134 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 4: Absolutely so. 135 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 5: I co founded Women in the Workplace, which is one 136 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 5: of the largest studies in the United States on the 137 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 5: experiences of both men and women in the workplace, as 138 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 5: well as a kind of benchmarking on representation. So really 139 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 5: kind of putting representation experience together. And as you say, Laura, 140 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 5: this book is in some ways it's been over a 141 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 5: decade in the making of pulling all of those perspectives together, 142 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 5: as well as new research that we had on a 143 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 5: concept of experience capital and the impact that has on 144 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 5: women's careers, and really shifting the spotlight from what organizations 145 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 5: can do to what, given that it's not a level 146 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 5: playing field, what women can do to find ways to 147 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 5: succeed in. 148 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: Spite of it all. 149 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I thought that was a fascinating angle because 150 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: it is one thing to point. 151 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: Out that the wrong is broken, as it were from. 152 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: The title of your book, Clay, But given that most 153 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: of us are not in a position to change the 154 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: world right now tomorrow, what can we do within that? So, 155 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: I mean, why was that sort of a real conscious 156 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: decision on your part to tackle that angle. 157 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 5: Absolutely, we're always looking for different ways to understand how 158 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 5: to solve something that is actually quite of a systems 159 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 5: level challenge. Right, It's not one action, it's multiple actions. 160 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 5: The challenge with company level change is that it is slow. 161 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 5: It takes a multi generational commitment of a company to 162 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 5: truly go from the entry level all the way to 163 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 5: the top and to the board level, where you have 164 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 5: a really different type of representation of culture. And I 165 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 5: think for the average woman in the workplace. You just 166 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 5: can't wait that long. So, whilst that's super interesting and 167 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 5: we want committed companies to walk the talk, so to speak, 168 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 5: we also need a set of tactics and strategies that 169 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 5: we can employ if we're currently in the workforce. 170 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we just don't all have that kind 171 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: of time exactly, I. 172 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: Don't have that time. 173 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: Well, let's start with let's say we've got a young 174 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: woman who you know, we have lots of different people 175 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 2: of different ages listening to this podcast, but let's talk 176 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: about like a young woman newly out of school, perhaps 177 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: looking around at the working world, figuring out how am 178 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: I going to start? 179 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: What am I doing? 180 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 2: Are there things that she should be looking for in 181 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: companies as she is looking to get in At the beginning, 182 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 2: let me. 183 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 5: Say a couple of things that maybe aren't quite in 184 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 5: the book, and then we'll talk about a couple specific 185 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 5: strategies that she should be thinking of. The first thing 186 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 5: is I think if you're starting a job search or 187 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 5: you're in the earth stages of your career, one of 188 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 5: the hardest things to do is find the self confidence 189 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 5: without a ton of work experience to bet on yourself. 190 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 5: But I think it's really important to bet on yourself, 191 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 5: and that is kind of a mindset and a personal 192 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 5: journey that you have to be on. Now, let's talk 193 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 5: about some of the tactics that you can apply to that. 194 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 5: The first thing is knowing your facts, and we lay 195 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 5: that out in a section called roots of the Problem, 196 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 5: because I feel like a lot of women don't go 197 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 5: in understanding the facts of what they're getting into. The 198 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 5: fact is is that in the United States and globally 199 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 5: in most countries, women outperform men in school in two measures, 200 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 5: the percentage of the population that graduates with an undergraduate 201 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 5: degree and their GPAs. So here's the thing, ladies, you 202 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 5: are doing amazing at school. 203 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 4: Congratulations. 204 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 5: Now we don't see that success at those same rates 205 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 5: in terms of representation, promotion, velocity, and salary in the workplace. 206 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 5: So how do we flip the strength of being amazing 207 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 5: students at school to being amazing achievers at work? And 208 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 5: that's where this concept of experienced capital comes in, which 209 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 5: is close to fifty percent of your lifetime earnings comes 210 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 5: from what you learn on the job. So what you 211 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 5: learned in school only gets you about fifty percent of 212 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 5: the way there. Then, you have to take all that 213 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 5: strength and confidence and resilience and pointed at work. So 214 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 5: a tactical thing to get started with is pick a company, 215 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 5: not just a job. If you're starting out and you 216 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 5: feel fortunate, which I remember feeling just so grateful to 217 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 5: be offered a job, that's amazing, But also ask some 218 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 5: other questions. Make sure you're applying for jobs or you're 219 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 5: comparing if you have the fortune to have two or 220 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 5: three offers. How many women are at the leadership ranks 221 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 5: of that company. What are the policies and programs that 222 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 5: advance fair workplaces in that company? 223 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 4: What are the things. 224 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 5: That they do for early entry employees to help them 225 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 5: gain the capabilities and skills to get to that next level. 226 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 5: What do women who are too maybe promotions ahead of 227 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 5: where you would be say about that company? Have you 228 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 5: met women? Did you see them on the website? Did 229 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 5: you meet them in the recruiting process? What did they 230 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 5: say in an authentic and genuine way. You have to 231 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 5: ask a couple more questions, because remember, this is your career, 232 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 5: and this is best exemplified by this incredible woman who 233 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 5: if I take her towards thirty years after she started, 234 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 5: she was the CEO of a major technology company in 235 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 5: the valley. But when I asked her, what's the one 236 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 5: story you want to share of all your stories, she 237 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 5: said why. She chose IBM for her first job as 238 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 5: a sales leader, and she chose it as to well, 239 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 5: not even a sales leader, sales rep. She chose IBM 240 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 5: because she was admitted to a leadership program and that 241 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 5: leadership program taught her negotiation taught her like business skills, 242 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 5: taught her how to succeed, and that investment was worth 243 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 5: more than just being a sales rep at a prestigious 244 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 5: tech company. 245 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 246 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are certain companies that really take it seriously 247 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: to train people, and I know a lot of companies 248 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: these days are kind of weary of that because they're like, well, 249 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 2: they'll just fly out the door, which they do. 250 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: I mean, IBM's great. 251 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 2: People go elsewhere eventually in many cases, but you know 252 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: that they still find it worth it because it's the 253 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 2: place that people then want to go. We're going to 254 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: take a quick ad break and then I will be 255 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: back with more from Loraena Ye. Well, I'm talking with 256 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: Lorena Ye, who is the co author of the book 257 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: The Broken Wrong, which looks at how the gap between 258 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: women getting that first promotion in the workplace. I believe 259 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 2: Loreena was a number like eighty one women for every 260 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: hundred men promoted to the first level. 261 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: Is that what it is? 262 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, the odds of advancement are not equal. For every 263 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 5: one hundred men who get that first promotion you're just 264 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 5: a couple of years into work, only eighty one women 265 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 5: will see that same set of opportunities. And that's been 266 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 5: a number that's been pretty sticky for the last decade. 267 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting because that's like, again at the 268 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 2: beginning of people's careers, so not even necessarily have gotten 269 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: into that whole thing of parenthood and all that, which 270 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 2: we will get to in a minute. But let's talk 271 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: a little bit about how we can build our own 272 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: experience capital. So we're looking at this to say, Okay, well, 273 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 2: one of the big things that's going to help my 274 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: earning's going to help my promotion and possibilities is to 275 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: have more experience capital. If I'm like looking around at 276 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: my life, what practically can I do to make sure 277 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 2: I get more of that? 278 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 5: Sure, there are so many things, but maybe to say 279 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 5: I'm at the beginning of my career. First of all, 280 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 5: it goes unset. 281 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 4: You have to deliver the results. 282 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 5: So whatever the OKR nbos quotas expectations are, you have 283 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 5: to deliver it. That is the main bowling alley. But 284 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 5: as you learn how to deliver that, you are gaining 285 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 5: a whole bunch of skills. Pop your nose up and 286 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 5: ask a couple of questions. One, what are the broader 287 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 5: set of capabilities that I need to be great at 288 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 5: the next job, in the next job after, And how 289 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 5: can I start to get experience at a project level 290 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 5: within the role that I have to lean towards that. 291 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 5: A second thing is how can I start to demonstrate 292 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 5: entrepreneurship really early. That's not about leaving and founding a company, 293 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 5: although you're more than welcome to do that. I sit 294 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 5: in Silicon Valley. That's a very popular thing to do. 295 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 5: But entrepreneurship is also how do you take initiative and 296 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 5: demonstrate leadership and forward thinking in the role you have. 297 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 5: It could be as simple as you have fifteen minutes 298 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 5: with a mentor and you get some feedback. You share 299 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 5: who you are, but you also bring three ideas to 300 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 5: the tape and offer not just like problems but I 301 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 5: could help by doing X, Y, and Z. I would 302 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 5: be excited to try and do this to help us 303 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 5: deliver a better product, a better merchandising experience, whatever it 304 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 5: is that you happen to be doing. So, I think 305 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 5: how you demonstrate that leadership and that extra quotion early 306 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 5: is not about working more. It's about building a set 307 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 5: of capabilities you're going to need in the long run. 308 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I find that interesting because that is a 309 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: distinct thing from academic achievement in many ways, right, that 310 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: you tend to get good grades by doing well on 311 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: projects that have been assigned and tests that you know 312 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: are going to happen, on material that it's spelled out, 313 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: will be covered. Whereas that entrepreneurial mindset is looking for 314 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: something new that wasn't even there, right, I mean, that's 315 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: an entirely different. 316 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 5: Thing, exactly, And maybe one way to think about it 317 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 5: is to turn on its head a kind of phrase 318 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 5: that's often used, which is that women are promoted on 319 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 5: performance and men on potential. And that is this very 320 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 5: frustrating thing. It's something that's been discussed for decades, like, oh, 321 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 5: women look at all the criteria for a next job, 322 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 5: and they wait till they've exceeded on the all the 323 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 5: criteria and men say, hey, two out of ten ain't bad. 324 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 5: I'm gonna raise my hand, okay, and then they get 325 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 5: the job. Now instead of saying gosh, he doesn't deserve 326 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 5: the job, maybe say how I mean it is what 327 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 5: it is. I mean, don't worry about somebody else, worry 328 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 5: about yourself. How do I bet on my potential? And 329 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 5: so if I turn that around as something you can do, 330 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 5: you can say, look, I'm two years into the job, 331 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 5: the next job is exit. I would be really excited 332 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 5: about what are the pieces that are part of my 333 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 5: potential that are important for that next job. How do 334 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 5: I start to get some experience so that when I 335 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 5: have maybe not two out of ten, when I've got 336 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 5: seven out of ten, I can say, look, here's some 337 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 5: of the things I'm doing towards the other three, and 338 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 5: here's how I see it, and here's how I'm excited 339 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 5: to grow. So kind of looking up and around the corner. 340 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 5: We call that being strategic. I call that being practical. 341 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's really important. Yeah, and part of this might 342 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: be switching jobs. 343 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: I think it can be easy and sort of comfortable 344 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: to stay in jobs, and sometimes it's a good job. 345 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: But I think what I read from what I took 346 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: away from the Broken Wrung is sometimes even when things 347 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 2: are good, if you feel like you're not growing enough, 348 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: you really do need to keep looking around. 349 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 5: Absolutely so, I've seen this at junior levels. I've seen 350 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 5: this also at senior levels, where women feel like, for 351 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 5: specific reasons, the C suite is elusive. Maybe someone before 352 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 5: them could be practical, someone before them who's a woman, 353 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 5: just got that big CMO role, so it's not even 354 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 5: something holding them back. Take your talent and consider should 355 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 5: you go somewhere else? Now, Well, that doesn't you know 356 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 5: people are like, oh, that's not loyal or whatnot. You 357 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 5: can still be loyal by doing an amazing job. You 358 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 5: can still keep the network of people that you work with. 359 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 5: You can be very authentic in your job. But you 360 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 5: shouldn't turn down opportunities that would allow you to get 361 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 5: to your full potential. There's a balance there. 362 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely well. 363 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: One of the things I also found interesting in the book, 364 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: you talked about a finding that women tend to get 365 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 2: less actionable feedback than men. So as we're going about 366 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 2: building our experience capital, having these conversations with the manager 367 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 2: about what I need to know to be at the 368 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: next level. How can you get a little bit more 369 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: practical feedback on how you might improve. 370 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, So there are two things that the data shows 371 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 5: which I'm very focused on, like how do you turn 372 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 5: something slightly depressing into something that is a practical point 373 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 5: of action. So two things that are kind of depressing. 374 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 5: One is that women tend to get less quote negative 375 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 5: or constructive feedback, both by male and female managers. So 376 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 5: that is maybe you're like, oh, I only want cheerful feedback, 377 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 5: but the challenge is is that actually negative or constructive 378 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 5: or developmental feedback is some of the best ways you 379 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 5: grow when someone If you make a mistake and someone 380 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 5: is willing to tell you about that and help you 381 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 5: get to the next place, that's a huge gift. So 382 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 5: if you're getting less of that, that's actually not helpful. 383 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 5: The second thing is that women tend to have more 384 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 5: narrow and more junior networks, so there are more, fewer, 385 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 5: and let me just say it, less powerful people in 386 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 5: the average women's network. 387 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 4: When you put those those things together, it is. 388 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 5: Hard to have around you that kind of village that 389 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 5: propels you forward. So sometimes a woman may be sitting 390 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 5: there like how is it that the guys know everybody? 391 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 5: The you know what to do next? Like what meeting 392 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 5: did I miss? And I think you didn't miss a meeting. 393 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 5: It's a lot of these micro points that add up 394 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 5: to a macro difference, and so seeking directly feedback and saying, hey, 395 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 5: I didn't think that last project totally. I don't think 396 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 5: I hit it out of the park. Could you tell 397 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 5: me two or three things that I should take with 398 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 5: me to the next place. 399 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: So just de risk. 400 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 4: So it's easy for people to give you that feedback. 401 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 5: It requires confidence again to be like, look, it wasn't perfect, 402 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 5: but tell me how to get to the next thing. 403 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 5: I'm eager to get there. So seeking feedback out and 404 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 5: then also consistently building out your networks. These don't just 405 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 5: sort of happen to you. They are relationships that you 406 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 5: have to build an investment in over time. It's part 407 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 5: of your job. 408 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, it is part of your job. 409 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: It's not the extra stuff, it actually is a part 410 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: of it. So yeah, this podcast is aimed at women 411 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: who are building careers while also raising families, and of 412 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: course that is one of the reasons that perhaps representation 413 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: as we go up the ladder may not be equitable. 414 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: Is that many women wind up taking time out of. 415 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: The workforce to raise children, or they may be more 416 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: responsible for the kids within a partnership or anything like that. 417 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: And so maybe we could. 418 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: Talk about how to address that elephant in their room, 419 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: like what are some ways to make sure that if 420 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: you are raising a family and want to spend time 421 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: with your family and all that, that you are still 422 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 2: moving your career forward and maybe even seeing parenthood not 423 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: as a liability but as something that could be a 424 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 2: potential moment of change in your career. 425 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 5: So I have two co authors, Maria and Quillon, and 426 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 5: amongst the three of us, we have nine kids. Each 427 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 5: of us have three. I would not say it's easy. 428 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 4: So first I think let's just call it as it is. 429 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 5: It is not easy to work at advance your career, 430 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 5: do a great job in the current job, invest in 431 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 5: your future job as well as Ray's incredibly important people 432 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 5: young people to be wonderful adults like that the whole thing. 433 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 4: And kids. 434 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 5: When your kids, you have multiple kids less than ten 435 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 5: at home, this is challenging and it's challenging for both parents. 436 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 5: But we do find year over year that when we 437 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 5: look at even dual career families, the vast majority of 438 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 5: the household burden or the workload in the home economy, 439 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 5: irrespective of whether the woman is the prime bread winner 440 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 5: or the secondary bread winner, tends to fall on women. 441 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 5: So I think, like we just kind of have to 442 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 5: acknowledge first of all, that it's not an equal division 443 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 5: of labor in many cases, and we also have seen 444 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 5: from an economic perspective some of the challenges that really 445 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 5: face So all that said, like you know, we shouldn't 446 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 5: be afraid to say that it's not even that it 447 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 5: is harder that women have and carry different loads, and 448 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 5: I'm not saying which one is better or worse, but 449 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 5: some of those loads have a lot more in the bag. 450 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 5: So with that, one of the things is I would say, 451 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 5: how do you manage the tactics of your leave? And 452 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 5: one of the things that I always talk about, and 453 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 5: I this used to just be with women I mentored, 454 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 5: and then more and more broadly, is pack a round 455 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 5: trip ticket for yourself. Women do an amazing job planning 456 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 5: to leave. 457 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 4: Okay, I've made sure that all. 458 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 5: The activities of my job that someone else has it 459 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 5: all the projects are taken care of, all the checklists 460 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 5: are there. If you're in a client service business like myself, 461 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 5: I've talked to all my clients. 462 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 4: They've seen me. I'm going to be leaving at X date. 463 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 4: I will be back. 464 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 5: You've done all all the things to prepare. You've done 465 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 5: all the things to prepare for taking a certain amount 466 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 5: of time off, no matter how long or short. That is. 467 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 5: What we don't often see is that women take that 468 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 5: same amount of care to Like what I say is like, 469 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 5: write your round trip ticket back, what does the return 470 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 5: trip look like? And that may be getting in contact 471 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 5: with your mentors and sponsors and your boss early, like 472 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 5: you know, a month before you come back, thinking about 473 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 5: the work you're going to do when you come back, 474 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 5: thinking about the fact that other people were doing part 475 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 5: of your job, how are you going to do that, 476 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 5: Thinking about ways that you can lead, maybe even thinking 477 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 5: about part time for a little bit of the beginning 478 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 5: and then moving to full time, but like really architecting 479 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 5: with that same executive function skill to which you left, 480 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 5: how you come back and thinking about how to do that. 481 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 5: And sometimes what I have found anecdotally is that the 482 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 5: first two or three months back aren't really that hard. 483 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 5: It really starts to hit at six and nine months 484 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 5: when you have the collective maybe the sleep deprivation times. 485 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 4: The chips and work. 486 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 5: Usually the first moments aren't as difficult as the sustaining model, 487 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 5: to which you will have to work differently in a 488 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 5: world where you have one, two, three kids at home 489 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 5: and you are in a different stage of life and 490 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 5: you still have all those work ambitions. 491 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 4: So I think there's. 492 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 5: Something about using the function there there. Second thing is 493 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 5: about how you think about the skills you've learned. Some 494 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,959 Speaker 5: of the soft skills which we call soft skills, are 495 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 5: hard skills. How some of those contribute as opposed to 496 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 5: take away from your ability to be seen as a leader. 497 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 5: And then I think the last thing is do you 498 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 5: think about time differently? And maybe just to give you 499 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 5: one quick story, is one of my favorite stories. I 500 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 5: mean there are lots of favorites, say like favorites every chapter, 501 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 5: but one favorite story is this incredible lawyer and she 502 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 5: was on the rise doing a amazing things at Yahoo 503 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 5: at the time, and she had her first boy, and 504 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 5: then she decided to be a full time mom. And 505 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 5: I mean, if you saw her in action, you were 506 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 5: like you took that on with the same gusto that 507 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 5: you took on being a lawyer. Then fourteen years later, 508 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 5: she actually joined a reboarding group at LinkedIn, got back 509 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 5: into the workforce, and is like thriving at LinkedIn in 510 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 5: legal department again. And I love this story because she's 511 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 5: the same amazing leader, like you see it in her 512 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 5: when she was at Yahoo, when she was a full 513 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 5: time parent with her husband working full time, and then 514 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 5: now she's back and I think, like you just imagine 515 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 5: her kids, like her kids have seen all these different 516 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 5: versions and this texture to their mom, and she still 517 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 5: has so much energy in life and career left. And 518 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 5: so sometimes we measure it in days and months, maybe 519 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 5: sometimes we measure it in years. But that takes a 520 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 5: lot of personal courage and some companies that are willing 521 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 5: to invest in women to help them get back up 522 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 5: to speed. 523 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well, We're going to take one more quick ad 524 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 2: break and then I'll be back with more from Lorena Ye. Well, 525 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: I am back with Loraina Yee, who is the co 526 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 2: author of the book The Broken Wrung about what we 527 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: can do as women to help our careers advance to 528 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: overcome the problems of under representation, particularly in that first 529 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: managerial level. I want to talk a little bit though 530 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: about the mental load and the load of carrying the 531 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: household administration and work and all that that we mentioned earlier, 532 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: that women tend to carry more of that, particularly in 533 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 2: dual career couples. And you, guys, your co authors, and 534 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,479 Speaker 2: you are in a field that is known for longer hours, 535 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 2: for travel for client services. I'm curious if you guys, 536 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: or you in particular, have anything that has found it 537 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: made it easy to feel like you have the mental 538 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 2: space to take on the job given what it entails. 539 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 5: I think I might have tried something different at every season, 540 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 5: every phase, So I think I've been still in search 541 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 5: of when the kids were younger. So my kids are 542 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 5: I have a twenty two year old and eighteen year 543 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 5: old and a ten year old. So for quick math, 544 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 5: and I talk about this quite openly, McKinsey had won 545 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 5: every decade, every tenure. So one thing I've found is 546 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 5: that there are different types of tactics at different types 547 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 5: of tenure that are required because your responsibilities and also 548 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 5: your learning curve and your team and everything is a 549 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 5: bit different. So I don't think there's one way to 550 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 5: do it. I do think it's a bit custom built 551 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 5: to where you are. The second thing is there are 552 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 5: a couple of things that have helped, though the specifics 553 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 5: may have been different. One is I used to think 554 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 5: I was very well organized, but when you are overwhelmed, 555 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 5: sometimes you present is disorganized. So I found that having 556 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 5: some quiet time to think ahead three days three months 557 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 5: or three days three weeks three months is really really helpful. 558 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 5: I found that making to do lists that entail work 559 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 5: and home and looking at them together, as opposed to 560 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 5: I do all my work stuff and then I try 561 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 5: to get to my home stuff or vice versa. I 562 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 5: think there's something about just kind of letting it all 563 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 5: be on a sheet of paper. I know that sounds 564 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 5: incredibly tactical, but there is something about organizing in your 565 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 5: operating model, and that's a fancy way for saying all 566 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 5: the things that you have to get done. A second 567 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 5: category is I think over time, and it was really 568 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 5: hard for me at the beginning. I think I've gotten 569 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 5: a little bit better at just saying I'm not good 570 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 5: at that, or I'm having a hard time with this, 571 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 5: and then that entails getting some help or maybe even 572 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 5: just signaling like this. 573 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 4: Is gonna be a little bit sixty forty, not even eighty. 574 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 5: Twenty, or just maybe giving myself more time to do 575 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 5: something or not expecting that same level of thoroughness, and 576 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 5: that's less like work deliverables. But I think we add 577 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 5: on a lot of things at home. So there's something 578 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 5: about just knowing where you're at and saying, look, this 579 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 5: is a little too much for me. And it's amazing 580 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 5: how many people want to help you. And it's amazing 581 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 5: when you have a community around you, both at work 582 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 5: and at home. And then I think the last thing 583 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 5: that's a little bit tactical and helpful is as the 584 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 5: kids have grown up, you realize all the idioms that 585 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 5: you know are real. It's a really it's a marathon, 586 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 5: not a race. And part of this is being there 587 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 5: at the milestones in the like seventeenth lap and the 588 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 5: eighteenth lap and the twenty second lap. And it's like 589 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 5: such an honor for me to be my kid's mom. 590 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 5: And I feel like it may not accelerate my promotions 591 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 5: in all cases, and I think that's real and it 592 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 5: has real economic value to it, so I want to 593 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 5: discount it, but it definitely accelerates my totalness as a 594 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 5: person in life. 595 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely well. And you've gotten a lot of promotions too. 596 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: So let's let's be clear. Do you think I'm very curious? 597 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: Do you think you have more control of your time now? 598 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: I mean, you had the last child than when you 599 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: are quite higher up versus the first one. 600 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: I think it might. 601 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 5: Have been easier. It might have been oddly easier with 602 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 5: the first one. 603 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: Oh, you're younger than too. 604 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 5: I mean, who knows, well, well, I was younger, I 605 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 5: had a boundless energy. 606 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 4: I still do, but I had more energy. 607 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 5: But I also I do think there's a real difference 608 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 5: when you're managing yourself and the things that you're working on, 609 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 5: Like you're an individual contributor, even if you manage two 610 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 5: or three people, but you're largely an individual contributor versus 611 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 5: managing like a whole function. And so I definitely felt 612 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 5: a different level of responsibility when you work on a 613 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 5: project basis as an individual contributor. If you leave your work, 614 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 5: you give it to someone else. You can go away 615 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 5: from it and then you can come back from it. 616 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 5: That's an amazing gift for maternity leave or printal leave. 617 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 5: When you manage whole teams like that's a little more complicated. 618 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 5: So I think like the texture of what's hard is 619 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 5: a little different each time, which is why I think 620 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 5: investing in your round trip ticket and that that's a 621 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 5: long journey with a couple of stops is quite helpful. 622 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well, good to know, good to know. 623 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: Well, Lorena, we always end with a love of the week, 624 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: So this is anything that is making your life better 625 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 2: right now? This is gonna be a funny one, but 626 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 2: I've visited a friend over the weekend who happens to 627 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 2: have a farm and left with many, many eggs, which 628 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: is just sort of a funny thing now because they're 629 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: ridiculously expensive, but they're also really really good to have 630 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: these eggs, like straight from the chicken. My breakfast has 631 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: been amazing this week. So that is that is my 632 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: love of the week. What's good for you right now? 633 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 4: Well, I would say if I had fresh eggs, I 634 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 4: would make carbonara sauce. 635 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: Just kidding, scrambled're going straight to the pasta. 636 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 5: I would just go to the pasta and the panchetta 637 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 5: and some oil. I mean, what a difference fresh eggs 638 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 5: make in panchetta pasta. But I think my enjoy for 639 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 5: the week is so I was listening and I've been 640 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 5: reading and thinking a lot more as I spent a 641 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 5: lot of time in AI about robotics and kind of 642 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 5: robotics powered by AI level reasoning. And it's really interesting 643 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 5: because one of the things that humanoid AI robots are 644 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 5: making progress in are like basic house tasks. And that's 645 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 5: not the exciting part. What was the exciting part is 646 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 5: I was listening to one of the engineers breakdown how 647 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 5: hard it is to get a robot to do things 648 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 5: like to clear the dishes and put them away. And 649 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 5: what I thought was, Yes, there is complexity in what 650 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 5: seem or with ours like discounted simple things, and so 651 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 5: I just thought it was great that, like there was 652 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 5: complexity in terms of making a essentially a computer and 653 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 5: a physical object do this kind of the way mow 654 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 5: for the house. But I also thought, in the long run, 655 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 5: I love the promise that AI could help take some 656 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 5: of the toil which really sits on both parents away, 657 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 5: because what matters most like why are we working so hard? 658 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 5: We're working so hard so we can be at our 659 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 5: best and have quality time with our colleagues and our 660 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 5: people that we work with. And quality time with our families, 661 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 5: and so you know, if there could be a real 662 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 5: sea change in that, that makes me really optimistic for 663 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 5: the future. 664 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: Also, it would be really cool to have a robot 665 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: empty the dishwasher. I would enjoy that quite a bit. Yeah, 666 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: but the dishes, it. 667 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: Seems like gonna be very high. 668 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot of judgment. You need a judgment involved us. Well, Lorena, 669 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. If people want 670 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: to learn more, where can they go? 671 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 4: They can go to Broken Wrong. 672 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 5: You can find it on the McKinsey dot com website, 673 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 5: as well as Amazon and all other places that you 674 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 5: buy books. It's in my local bookstore, and I found 675 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 5: out that it was actually at a stock so they 676 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 5: had to writing more, which was probably the greatest compliment. 677 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 4: Hopefully, it wasn't just my kids buying the book. 678 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 2: It's just your family buys it and then it's like, 679 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: but it's out of stock. Now I've done that, Like 680 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: that was the last copy I bought it. 681 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: Well, all right, Laura, thank you so much for joining us. 682 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for hosting all Right. 683 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 3: Well, that was awesome and probably inspiring to lots of 684 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 3: our listeners. So we now have a question that is 685 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,919 Speaker 3: tangentially related. Someone asked they got promoted into a major 686 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 3: leadership role, and this actually came from one of our 687 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 3: Patreon subscribers, but hopefully she won't mine is getting shared 688 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 3: even more widely. And she said she was going to 689 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 3: be working with an administrative assistant for the first time. 690 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 3: So do we have advice on how to make sure 691 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 3: this is a productive partnership and one that helps her 692 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 3: be more effective in her role? 693 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think definitely thinking about that last part, Like, 694 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 2: this person's role is to help you be more effective, 695 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: So you need to think about where are the places 696 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 2: where support would really allow me to spend my time 697 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 2: on my highest value skills and the. 698 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: Things that I uniquely can do. 699 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 2: And especially if you are in a major leadership role, 700 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 2: this is probably working with the senior people who are 701 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 2: reporting directly to you, spending time with those people and 702 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: making sure they know what they're doing leading the organization right, 703 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 2: providing the motivation for everyone, and encouragement in the direction 704 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 2: broadly for the group. And so what can this person 705 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: do to make sure that you can devote as much 706 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: of your time as possible to those things? So I 707 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 2: think it would really really help to track your time 708 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 2: as you are doing this, to look at how your 709 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 2: work hours get spent, and then to sort of go 710 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: through and say, well, which one of those things were 711 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: the ones that were my highest value use, what were 712 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 2: the things that somebody else could do, and then try 713 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 2: to kind of over time put more and more of 714 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 2: those with your administrative assistant. 715 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: And I think also recognizing that it is something that 716 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: is going to. 717 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 2: Take time to build a relationship because both of you 718 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 2: are going to have to figure out how to work together. 719 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: So don't take anything that happens in the first few 720 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 2: weeks as set like it can change. 721 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: This person will have ideas, you'll have ideas. You'll work 722 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: together to make it work. 723 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 2: But you could also especially if you are getting someone 724 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 2: who has a lot of experience in this, which I'm 725 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 2: hoping that you are, Like maybe they were supporting the 726 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 2: previous person in your role, or it's somebody who's been 727 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 2: hired who's been a long time executive assistant, has worked 728 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: with people in major leadership roles. Before ask this person, 729 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 2: what do you do that has been most helpful? Like, 730 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,439 Speaker 2: what have you done that has been transformative? What would 731 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 2: you see looking at what you know of my role 732 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 2: that you would like to support me on and you 733 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 2: think would work best, and they'll probably have ideas that 734 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 2: you might not have thought of. 735 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 4: I like that. 736 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 3: I think what you said earlier about like taking time 737 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 3: is important because it can be It may feel laborious 738 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 3: at first to get someone really used to the way 739 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 3: you like things done, or maybe they do something and 740 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 3: you want to give feedback, and that all takes time, 741 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 3: like it's going to come up the works. But at 742 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 3: the end of the day, if that person is someone 743 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 3: who's going to be staying, it's so where it's spending 744 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 3: that time to have him or her understand how you 745 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 3: do things, because again, that's like over and over again, 746 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 3: that's going to pay time dividends. I also like what 747 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 3: you said about like things that are the most value 748 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 3: of your time, But I also think kind of thinking 749 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 3: about like what do I least want to spend my 750 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 3: time doing that I'm doing right now, and figuring out 751 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 3: how you can template that out to have that person 752 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 3: help with those extremely low value tasks. 753 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, all right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. 754 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 2: We've been talking about the broken wrong getting that first 755 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 2: promotion into management and settings people up for. 756 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: Success in that. We will be back next week with 757 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: more on making work and life fit together. 758 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 759 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 760 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 3: and you. 761 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 762 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join 763 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 764 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 2: work together.