1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: And today I want to start with a question that 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: might make you think I'm kind of out of my mind, 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: but I come to this for a real reason. The 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: question is our story is bad for us? Uh? I 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: asked this not out of nowhere, but I was turned 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: onto this topic because I recently came across an interview 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: in The Verge with the philosopher who's written a book 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: about how the drive for narrative affects the way we 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: understand the world. And this philosopher, who will name and 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: discuss later, concludes that on the whole, stories might do 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: more harm than good on planet Earth. And I'm interested 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: in this idea because I so viscerally hate it, Like 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's wrong, but in many ways I 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: feel that I sort of like live for stories, and 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: if they are on the whole bad for the world, 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: I almost don't want to know about it. But I 20 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 1: guess that's also a sign that we kind of should 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: take a look. Yeah, it's a difficult thing to sort 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: of contemplate, because, as we'll discuss, stories define us in 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: so many ways, in so many obvious ways and so 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: many um ways that are that are a little bit 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: elusive to really, you know, wrap our heads around. And 26 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: they've they've been a part of human culture the whole time. 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean they the oldest known written stories go back 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: to the third millennium b C. And oral storytelling goes 29 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: even further back than that. I mean, we've just this 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: is something that that is as old, is as old 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: as human culture. And the idea that we should flee 32 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: from that, or that that this is not the model 33 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: on which we should be proceeding into the future. Uh, 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: it forces us to reconsider something very basic about us 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: as a species. Well, I mean, one of the things 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: that we might walk away from today's episode concluding is that, Okay, 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: maybe there's no way to get rid of stories, and 38 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: in fact, we wouldn't even want to, but we should 39 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: at least be able to appreciate that they can do 40 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: a lot of harm, and so we should know what 41 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: that kind of harm is and maybe keep an eye 42 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: out for it. I mean, I might end up kind 43 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: of lashing out even if you could prove that stories 44 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: are on the whole bad for the world. It's like, 45 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to live without them, and I don't care. 46 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: I'll keep them even though they hurt. Yeah, And one 47 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: of the curious things is if we try to imagine 48 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: a world without stories, we have to imagine a world 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: without stories. That meaning that we have to sort of 50 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: create a story of an unstoried world, which is a 51 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: bit of conundrum. But certainly you don't have to dig 52 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: far to begin to sort of see where some of 53 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: the strife could occur when you start comparing real life 54 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: to stories. I think one example from the past year 55 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: so that it's going to resonate with a lot of people, 56 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: when when the the Queen movie came out, Bohemian Rhapsody. 57 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, did you see it? I haven't seen it yet. 58 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm excited to see it because everybody seemed to most 59 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: people that I talked to seem to love it. And 60 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: we have quite an immortal love for Queen on this show. 61 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love Queen. But you did see some 62 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: criticism where people were saying, okay, well, you you know, 63 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: you took things out of sequence, you put things, you 64 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: rearrange things to make a better story, and I do 65 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: think that you see that with a lot of biopictures, 66 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: because ultimately it's rare for an individual's life to be 67 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: story shaped. Um. You know. I often go back to 68 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: Neil Gaiman's excellent short story collection Fragile Things, which has 69 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: some some wonderful tales in it, but in the introduction 70 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: he discusses this, this desire for story shaped things in 71 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: our lives, despite the fact that life itself is not 72 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: story shaped, or at least it rarely is. Um And 73 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: when we turned to myths, comedies, dramas, and and tragedies, 74 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: we we often do so in orders to sort of 75 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: make sense of our life, to to give sort of 76 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: a shape that we can squeeze our life into, even 77 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: though again real life rarely matches the beats and the 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: rhythm of narrative. It reminds me a bit of the 79 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: Chinese notion of of a U n which is uh 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: structural completeness. And generally this is used to talk about 81 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: the desired structural completeness in in the family, in the 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: family structure, but I think we can we can also 83 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: sort of look at narrative. Structural completeness in life is 84 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: something that we we find ourselves longing for maybe not 85 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: even you know, consciously, but subconsciously, and then we rarely 86 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: find it. Well, yeah, there's a we have a clear, 87 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,679 Speaker 1: strong desire to impose an aesthetic order on events, which 88 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: in many ways, if you just like sample the moment 89 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: to moment are quite random or structured in a way 90 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: where things do not have emotional drive and significance. I mean, 91 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: one of the problems is like defining what is a story. 92 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: You know, people might differ on that, but I would 93 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: say it's probably something like it involves characters, So some 94 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: forms of people. They don't have to be humans, but 95 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: they've got minds. They's got characters with minds that have 96 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: desires and goals, and you engage with them emotionally as 97 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: they struggle to achieve their goals and face obstacles along 98 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: the way. Right, And depending on what sort of story 99 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: this is, and you know, from what tradition it arises, 100 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: that individual may ultimately, uh you know, rise up from 101 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: the abyss and and claim their reward, or they fall 102 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: tragically short of claiming the reward, or they you know, 103 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: are they go mad after seeing an elder god. That's 104 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing, right, And whether the structure of your 105 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: story is comedy or tragedy or elder che horror, and 106 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: no matter what it is, there is sort of like 107 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 1: a structural format that we come to expect and we 108 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: get pleasure from seeing that format repeated. And when you're 109 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: trying to adapt real events into this story shaped whole, 110 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: you you end up kind of fun ing things a lot, right, 111 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: You move things around in time, you leave out a 112 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: whole lot. You just focus on the parts that are important. 113 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 1: But the funny thing is putting things in a story 114 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: shaped hole can in fact dictate to us what parts 115 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: of a sequence of events we think are important, when 116 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: in fact they might not actually be the important parts. 117 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: If we're trying to say, uh, trying to imagine what 118 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: actually caused an outcome in a real world series of events, 119 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: that might be very different than the things you'd focus 120 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: on if you're trying to tell an entertaining, emotionally engaging story. Yeah, 121 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: that's an important thing to keep in mind as we 122 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: go forward here, because we certainly have the more pure 123 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: versions of narrative that I imagine most people were thinking 124 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: of when we first brought this up, and that is 125 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: the novels we read the myths we tell each other, uh, 126 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: you know, often out of amusement, but sometimes to see 127 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: some sort of a you know, model of life. But 128 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: then there are the narratives and the stories that we 129 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: use to um to put a certain shape on the past, 130 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: to put a certain shape on the present, and even 131 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: on ourselves that are that can be a little bit 132 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: more problematic. Yeah, so absolutely, stories can can perhaps distort 133 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: our appreciation of how and why things really happen. Another 134 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: reason people might oppose stories or more literature more broadly, 135 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: let's say, might be that they just take issue with 136 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: what effects it seems to have. Like one great example 137 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: would be Plato. You know, the Greek philosophers. They had 138 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: so many bad takes. Arguably one of Plato's most unpopular 139 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: takes is in the Republic when he um you know, 140 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: he in many ways in Vase against the power of poetry. 141 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: Like Plato thinks poetry should be viewed with extreme suspicion. 142 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: He's he's not quite sure about poets and their role 143 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: in the republic because poetry uses language to encourage antisocial sentiments, 144 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: and it can't be rationally argued against. It's not rational. 145 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: It's appealing to you emotionally and sometimes the appeals it makes. 146 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: He says, are are things that are not good for 147 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: the state, you know. He he wants a state to 148 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: be a place where everybody acts selflessly and courageously. And 149 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: so he attacks Homer who tells these stories of characters 150 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: who fear death and try to avoid being sent to hades, 151 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, and Plato thinks, well, this is terrible. These 152 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: stories just train us to suck at courage and have 153 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: the kind you know, they train us not to have 154 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: the kind of selflessness necessary for a strong state. Now 155 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: that's Plato's kind of tyrannical, micromanaging idea of how a 156 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: state should be. But you can see other examples, and 157 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: we do see them all the time with people protesting 158 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: the idea that hey, stories are out there showing showing 159 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: people ways to live that are maybe not good. Yeah. Absolutely. 160 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: I mean at the very basis of this mentioning the Hades, 161 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: thing you could you could frame this is like, Okay, 162 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: here's a popular story that people are drawn to for 163 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: a number of reasons, and it's pushing health theology. It's 164 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: pushing this idea that that that we we must act 165 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: of a certain way in this life to avoid something 166 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: in the next Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the 167 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: hades vision being somewhat different there, because that's just where 168 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: pretty much everybody goes. But I absolutely see what your 169 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: thing is saying, especially with like ideas of like h 170 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: narratives that reinforce the idea of a punishment in the afterlife. 171 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: And this is a big part of another thing narratives 172 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: due for us is we get to experience vicarious justice 173 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: through them. Do you ever notice how people who don't 174 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: believe in, say revenge or the death penalty or anything 175 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: like that in real life they don't want to see 176 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: people actually corporally bodily violently punished for the things they've 177 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: done wrong. They still want to see it in narrative. 178 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: You still want to at least see the villain get 179 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: there come upance. Yeah, that's still is richly satisfying. Um Granted, 180 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 1: I think in these cases you might maybe want a 181 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: more um organic come upance, you know. Yeah, but still, 182 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: well that's the payoff you desire. Well. One of the 183 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: beauties of fictional narrative is that it can be contrived. So, 184 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: for examp, when the villain does something bad, uh, and 185 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: and you want to see the villain punished. In a story, 186 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: you in fact can contrive it so the hero doesn't 187 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 1: have to kill the villain. Maybe the villain like does 188 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: something bad and seals their own fate. They end up 189 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: falling off a cliff in the last attempt to you know, 190 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: stab the hero in the back or something like that. 191 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: This is one of my favor Yeah, one of my 192 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: favorite tropes that you see in particularly, It's been used 193 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: in one Pixar film of note. I'm not going to 194 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: mention it just in case someone hasn't seen it. But 195 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: then they have to pull off this exact same thing. 196 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: The villain is spared, but now the villain really wants 197 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: to do something awful and then they act and then 198 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: they die for their efforts. Yeah. Disney type films do 199 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: this all the time. I mean, it's a great way 200 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: to have it, have your cake and eat it too. 201 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: Get to watch the villain get punished and die, but 202 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: the hero doesn't have to do something vengeful and violent. Yeah, 203 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: or the hero gives them their second chance. Yeah. Um. 204 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: I should also point out if if if you're into 205 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: this discussion, a definitely check out our episode on masked 206 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: killers in horror movies. October, because we spent a lot 207 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: of time talking about this, uh at this sort of 208 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: thing is that concerns Jason Vorhees, right though I think 209 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: in that context in a much seedier type of desire 210 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: to see punishment of others, maybe less having to do 211 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: with them actually committing crimes. Right, But I mean the 212 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: Jason Vorhees story is is a reminder that it's like, 213 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: when we're talking about stories that resonate, they're not all 214 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: the Iliad. You know, granted there's a lot of bloody 215 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: stuff that goes on. They're not all picks are They're 216 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: not all picks are They're not all of refined works. Uh, 217 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: they don't have to be. They can to to resonate 218 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: with a culture. Well, let's get back to what these 219 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: experts we're gonna be talking about today have actually said 220 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: about the power of stories. I guess for good and 221 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: for ill. But specifically, we all know the goodness about stories. 222 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we hear about that all the time, we 223 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: think about it all the time. What's really novel is 224 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: to think that there could be some way that stories 225 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: are really messing us up. Cool. Yeah, well, let's yea, 226 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: let's get into it. Your um First, I want to 227 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: mention uh a professor of anthropology history in Tibetan Studies 228 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: at the University of Colorado, Carol McGranahan. She was one 229 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: of several different individuals that appeared on an episode of 230 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: Ideas with Paul Kennedy, a CBC radio show. That's one 231 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: of your favorites. Yeah, yeah, this episode aired several months back. 232 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: You should be able to find out on their website 233 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: relatively easily. It's titled Have I Got a Story for You? 234 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: And in that she she discusses the power of certainly 235 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: having a story, but also the detriment of being denied 236 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: your story. Uh, the empowerment of finally having a story 237 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: to tell or more telling, and you know, for your 238 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: story to suddenly have value in society, to be permitted 239 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: at all. And one of the examples there are various 240 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: examples you can turn to with as various groups, demographics, 241 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: whole genders have been denied their story over the course 242 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: of history. But she also points out to Me Too 243 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: movement as as a contemporary example of this of example 244 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: where people felt, you know, we're finally emboldened to share 245 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: these stories that were not permitted to be to be 246 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: to be shared previously, be at an overt you can't 247 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: talk about that, or just kind of a the societal 248 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: cultural pressure of this story is not appropriate or not valued. 249 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: So I think in this we we definitely see an 250 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: example of sort of the pros and cons of stories. Yes, 251 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: it can be it can be empowering to tell your 252 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: story or to and certainly to be able to turn 253 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: to stories in culture that match your own and give you, 254 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, strength, But then also we can see the 255 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: the negative of that. If if you are not allowed 256 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: to tell your story, or you don't see your story 257 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: reflected and say the popular storytelling in your culture, then 258 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: then yeah, that can have a detrimental effect. You know. 259 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: It's interesting in this kind of context all the different 260 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: things that the idea of a story or a narrative 261 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: comes to mean. I mean, like in some cases it 262 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: means literally like a chronology of events with main characters 263 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: that face frustrations and this could I mean, in the 264 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: case we're talking about here, these are true stories. Um so, 265 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: like telling the story of your life. You're singling out 266 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: the things that you think we're significant, talking about the 267 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: struggles you faced and all that. But we also in 268 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: a public context we use words like narrative and stories 269 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: to mean all kinds of things. You know, we use 270 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: it to mean sometimes just like, um uh, your narrative 271 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: might mean like the things you believe, or might just 272 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: mean like a set of facts that you have in hand. 273 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: Or sometimes narrative comes to mean like like a worldview. 274 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's like your set of starting assumptions. Yeah, 275 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: and I think this is all valid. On the other hand, 276 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: I do agree with some of the sentiments. We're gonna 277 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: explore later that the narrative is the word narrative. The 278 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: classification of narrative is probably a bit overused currently. Yeah, um, 279 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: it's I saw it to day, looking unfortunately at Twitter 280 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: comments on somebody else's post. Immediately the criticism was, oh, 281 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: you're pushing this narrative, this is your narrative. Um. And 282 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: of course, the the implication in that is always that 283 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: I am dealing with objective truth. I've got facts, You've 284 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: got a story. You have story, Yeah, you have a narrative. 285 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: You're the one pushing every win and reality. I mean, 286 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: we're all playing with narratives. Well, but the funny thing 287 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: about even that usage, I mean, whether or not it's legitimate. 288 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: I think that's probably often lobbed unfairly. But even if 289 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: whether you're right or wrong, it suggests that we intuitively 290 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: since that maybe there's something that's not always quite right 291 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: about using a story to view the world through. Right, 292 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: You know that that we're sensing intuitively that maybe sometimes 293 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: people use stories to get excuse view of reality. It 294 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: makes me think that did you ever watch Jim Henson's 295 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: The Storyteller with the John Hurt I actually have not. Oh, 296 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: it's a tremendous series, and there is a sense in 297 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: that show, especially in one episode, that the Storyteller is, 298 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, a character to be distrusted by the powers 299 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: that be because he's traveling around amongst the people and 300 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: uh and and telling these tales. Oh well, as we'll 301 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: go on to explore, I mean, narrative is quite powerful 302 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: and it can motivate action. I do want to throw 303 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: in one more bit from McGranahan here, and that is 304 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: that that she drives home that stories and even memories 305 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: by necessity exist within a social context. So I think 306 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: that's key to keep in mind here. You know that 307 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: that connection is always going to be in place. Well, 308 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: of course, I mean one clear example of this. Has 309 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: you ever noticed how some stories really transcend to cultures 310 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: and others really don't. You know, some really don't You 311 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: just you feel like I'm not part of the culture 312 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: that produced this or the time that produced this, and 313 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: thus I don't get it. Sometimes you look at some 314 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: works of ancient literature and they don't feel like a 315 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: story to you, right, yeah, or even if it's some 316 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: sort of international cinema or they're also I think there 317 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: are those cases where we only get you only get 318 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: half of it. There's so much that's of course either 319 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: obviously lost to translation itself, or we're just not you know, 320 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: just not getting the nuance of of what it should 321 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: mean culturally. I've mentioned this before regarding various Chinese ghost stories, 322 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: where yeah, you you you lose something when you lose 323 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: the language. You lose something when you lose certainly like 324 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: the literary references, you're still left with in many cases 325 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: a really cool ghost story, a really cool monster encounter. 326 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: But but you're missing all the other things as well. 327 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: And uh, and I think that's going to happen, or 328 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: there's a there's a potential for that to happen. Anytime 329 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: you take a story out of one culture and place 330 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: it into another. All right, let's take a quick break 331 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will discuss more about 332 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: stories than all right, we're back. So, as I mentioned 333 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: at the top, I was inspired to talk about this 334 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: today when I saw an interview published at Verge with 335 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: a Duke University professor and philosopher of science who has 336 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: written a book about the use of narratives in understanding history. 337 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: And this philosopher is named Alex Rosenberg. I wasn't familiar 338 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: with him otherwise. In this book is called How History 339 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: Gets Things Wrong, The Neuroscience of Our Addiction to Stories. 340 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: Now I'm to understand I wasn't actually able to listen 341 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: to that Ideas episode. But Rosenberg's on that episode. Oh yes, yeah, 342 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: he's one of three individuals that that they chat with 343 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: and and he's extremely well spoken on all of this, 344 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: uh and and very and humorous too, um because one 345 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: of the things, like we we don't want to make 346 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: it sound as if he is like railing against narrative, 347 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: like he himself is a novelist as well. Oh yeah, 348 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: he's written multiple historical novels. And he makes the point 349 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: that you know, he thinks stories are wonderful. Like, there's 350 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: no denying that they bring us joy, they enrich our lives, 351 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: and there's also little doubt that they're one of the most, 352 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: if not the single most powerful ways of changing people's 353 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: minds about things and motivating action. Uh though of course, 354 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: maybe this isn't always for good, right, And one of 355 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: the things that he talks about at length, especially on 356 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: the Ideas episode, is is the idea of self narrative, 357 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: the idea of viewing our life as a story and 358 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: ourselves as a character in that story, and indeed turning 359 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: to uh exterior narrated narratives be at a you know, novel, movie, 360 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: myth and then using that as sort of a a 361 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: guide by which we might interpret our own life and 362 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: our own identity. But before we get to get to that, 363 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: really like, there's like the idea of where narrative comes from, 364 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: and and Rosenberg says that he sees self narrative is 365 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: one of the oldest among various human adaptations that enabled 366 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: us to survive the prehistoric world, to deal with predatory threats, 367 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: and then work our way up the food chain. Yeah, 368 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you can clearly see self narrative 369 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: as some variation on the same kind of adaptive value 370 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: as imagination. What is imagination good for You can like 371 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: simulate something that might be dangerous before you actually try it, 372 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: and turn it over in your brain and see if 373 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: you can sort of practice without actually putting yourself at risk. 374 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: And this is a lot of what narrative is too. 375 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: You know, you're imagining ways stories in which characters face obstacles, 376 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: maybe like obstacles you might face, but you don't have 377 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: to actually face them yet, and it's sort of mental 378 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: practice runs. But then when you apply that to yourself, 379 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: it has all these other interesting properties and valances. You 380 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 1: can go, uh, you can mess around with time in 381 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: your life exactly. And yet time, I think is one 382 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: of the key lands mental time travel or chronesthesia, the 383 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,719 Speaker 1: ability to think, all, right, what what will happen if 384 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: this occurs? And of course that's more overtly visible in 385 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: things like science fiction what will the future be? Like, Well, 386 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: here's one version, it'll be Blade Runner right now, that 387 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But but also we we see that 388 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: in like if you see a movie about uh, individuals 389 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: dealing with say, um, oh, I don't know a tornado, 390 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: you watch twister. Twister is on some level a chronoesthetic 391 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: um exercise in storm preparation, Like you're thinking, what might 392 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: actually happen to you next year when the big when 393 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: the big twister comes down the down the field. Yeah, yeah, 394 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: sort of. But but then again, more to Rosenberg's point here, 395 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: a lot of this comes back to theory of mind, 396 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: that ability we have to create a rough simulation of 397 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: another individual's mind state, their history, their goals, their ideas, etcetera. 398 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: All those things that you know, if you've ever taken 399 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: a writing course, the creative writing course with someone says, 400 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: all right, here's a list of questions about your protagonists. 401 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: Answer them so that you can, you know, ground yourself 402 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: in who they are. I mean, that can be kind 403 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: of wrote, but it's also like, that's not a bad exercise. 404 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean it forces you to think. And also it's 405 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: something that you ultimately want your audience to do. If 406 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: you're trying to write good characters. I mean, yeah, if 407 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: you if you just talk to like neurotologists, what happens 408 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: when we get involved in a good story. You get 409 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: transported into it. You become part of the story. You 410 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: empathize with the characters, and you try to share their mind. 411 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: It's like you create a you know, a brain to 412 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: brain link with that fictional character. Yeah, and if you 413 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: find something there, some form in their mind that you 414 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: have already or that you would like to have, then 415 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: then you have that connection. So yeah, theory of mind, 416 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: it was. It was essential, he argues for our cooperation 417 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: as a species, for us to able to engage in 418 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: this sort of thinking and ultimately create self narratives that 419 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,239 Speaker 1: would guide our understanding. However, despite its usefulness in our 420 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: survival and the importance of narrative in our lives today, 421 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: he criticizes its destructive uses in our understanding of other cultures, histories, religions, etcetera. Now, 422 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: he does not mean historical scholarship here, like pure historical scholarship, 423 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: but rather the looser narratives that push certain push certain 424 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: destructive understandings of history, peoples, and places. So he's saying 425 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: not so much that when history gets things wrong. He's 426 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: not so much talking about historians, but the ways we 427 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: make history into a story, right, Like, on some level, 428 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: to understand history, we have to create neartors. We have 429 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: to create neartors, We have to at least create a 430 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: sequential understanding, you know, because ultimately we're trying to say, well, 431 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: what caused this, what caused that? But then again, and 432 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: we've discussed this on the show before, like there's a 433 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: trap in thinking that you're going to create a story 434 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: shaped sequence of events. Well, I think the crucial thing 435 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: would be coming back to what we were just talking about, 436 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: which is theory of mind. Right when you try to 437 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: imagine that things in history happened because you identify with 438 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: a character in history and you can simulate what they 439 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: were thinking and what they wanted and why they did 440 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 1: what they did. We did this all the time in history. 441 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: We even simulate the minds of masses of people, not 442 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: like individuals. We we like make what did the workers 443 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: in St. Peter's where want during the October Revolution? And 444 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: it's like it's like you make them into a single 445 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: person whose mind you simulate, and you think maybe you 446 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: understand them, like they're the main character in a story. Yeah, 447 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: and you can see where Like the basic argument here 448 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: is this might be a very useful shortcut, uh in 449 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: a in in in a in a previous age. You know, 450 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: if you're just dealing with the basic survival of of 451 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: prehistoric humans, you know, trying again trying to survive predation, uh, 452 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: and then the challenges of the natural world and work 453 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: their way up the food chain. But you get into 454 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: our more modern um challenges and this doesn't hold up. UH. 455 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: For instance, he he talks about the situation of of 456 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: looking at at science and story. So we engage in 457 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: a certain amount of storytelling on this show when we 458 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: talk about science and UH. And it's you see this 459 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: echo time and time again in science communication. Tell a story, 460 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: tell a story. UM. I think Robert Cruel which give 461 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: a talk about this years ago, saying, like, you know 462 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: about how scientists need to be able to tell a 463 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: story to relate what they're doing to everyday people. And 464 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: and there's there's certainly a value in that. That's the 465 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: that's the pro. But then the the con the opposite 466 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: side of the coin here is as as Rosenberg points out, 467 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to science, we prefer the 468 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: narrative uh to the raw scientific data. You know. And 469 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: and this can this can be fine if you have 470 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: a narrative that's there to support scientific consensus or to 471 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: to help explain what the science actually says. But then 472 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: when you have a narrative that is working counter to 473 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: scientific consensus. Then you start getting into problems. Well, unfortunately, 474 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: the fact is that just reality tends to favor people 475 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: who will cheat. So like, if you are not constrained 476 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: by facts and by nuance and by trying to be 477 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: really honestly and you know, trying really hard to understand 478 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: what the science says communicated accurately, if you don't have 479 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: those limitations, then you've got all kinds of room to 480 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: tell the best kind of story you want. You know, 481 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: you can. You can make really compelling characters. You can 482 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: say exactly why things happen that give great twists and 483 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: turns and drama. It's a lot harder to shape a 484 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: compelling narrative if you're constantly bound by realities that you 485 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: cannot ignore and must be truthful about. Right. I mean 486 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: you look at examples such as say Alex Jones, right, 487 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: where Alex Jones is not going to say, all right 488 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: with this particular problem that I'm talking about today, Uh, 489 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: you know, it has a number of complex uh causes. 490 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: It's difficult to to to nail down exactly how it 491 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: came to be. No, he's gonna say it's this, and 492 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: they are literal demons, you know, and and that makes 493 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: for a better story. It does. I'm often self conscious, uh, 494 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: on this very show, especially Like I mean, there are 495 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: lots of cases where this comes up, but I would 496 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: say a common one would be like anytime we talk 497 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: about neuroscience, almost always there are there are simple, not 498 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: very accurate stories you can use to talk about about 499 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: things in neuroscience, like what a brain region does, this 500 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: is the fear center of the brain, you know, Or 501 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: what a neurochemical does oxytocin is the love hormone, when 502 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: in reality, what I feel like I always have to 503 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: keep saying over and over again is like, well, you know, 504 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: this brain region or subsystem or this neurotransmitter, it's uh, 505 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: it seems to be involved in a lot of different things. 506 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: It's complex. We don't fully understand its role yet. It's 507 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: correlated with all these weird, diverse things. And I feel 508 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: like I have to say that in order to be 509 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: honest about what seems to be the case as far 510 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: as we know right now. But it's it's hard to 511 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: tell a really like you know, gut wrenching story that 512 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 1: way and keep people on the hook. I feel like 513 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: we have to do it to be honest, But you know, 514 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: they're all kinds of unscrupulous people out there who are 515 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: gonna just be fine telling you a really simple pat 516 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: story about oxytocin is love hormone and all it what 517 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: it does is it makes you moral and makes you 518 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: love loving and compassionate. And maybe they're you know, maybe 519 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: they're just trying to make you feel better. Maybe they're 520 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: trying to sell you a supplement. But you know, the 521 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: the the the actual motivation could be any number of things. 522 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: Uh So one of Rosenberg's key points here, I think 523 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: is that, you know, ultimately it's it's an example of 524 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: the needs of modern humanist civilization outstripping the limitations of 525 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: what our minds evolved to do. Uh. And he ultimately 526 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: is arguing that, you know, it's not that we need 527 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: to get rid of narrative. Uh. You know, I don't. 528 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: I for one, I don't think it's even possible. Of 529 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: course not, but it's ridiculous. Yeah, But but to whatever 530 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: extent we could increase awareness of narrative and what narrative 531 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: does and then lean more towards what science does in 532 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: those cases where it's applicable. Well, and I think another 533 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: thing would be you can't beat it I think it's 534 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: just impossible to get over the compelling power of storytelling 535 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: uh in in driving people's behavior and shaping their attitudes. 536 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: So what has to be true is that people who 537 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: want to spread the truth rather than lies have to 538 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: work really hard and spend a lot of resources honing 539 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: their ability to tell engrossing, compelling, emotionally engaging personal stories 540 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: that still nevertheless communicate what we know to be true, 541 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: instead of the lies that people are trying to sell 542 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: with other stories out there. Now back to that interview 543 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: on the Verge that that was with Rosenberg. You know, 544 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: he said one thing that I thought was interesting here. 545 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: So he's talking about the use of narratives and understanding history. Um, 546 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: and he says, quote, the problem is, these historical narratives 547 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: seduce you into thinking you really understand what's going on 548 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: and why things happen. But most of it is guessing 549 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: people's motives and their inner thoughts. It allays your curiosity, 550 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: and you're satisfied psychologically by the narrative, and it connects 551 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: the dots so you feel you're in the shoes of 552 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: the person whose narrative is being recorded. It seduced you 553 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: into a false account and now you think you understand. 554 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: The second part is that it effectively prevents you from 555 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: going on to try to find the right theory and 556 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: correct account of events. The third problem, which is the gravest, 557 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: is that people use narratives because of their tremendous emotional 558 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: impact to drive human actions, movements, political parties, religions, and ideologies, 559 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: and many movements like nationalism and intolerant religions are driven 560 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: by narrative and are harmful and dangerous for humanity. Uh. 561 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: And I think that's quite true. You know, I love storytelling, 562 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: and I and I encourage people who want to spread 563 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: truth and goodness around the world to use stories to 564 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: do it. But we have to notice that like fascism 565 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: is highly based on storytelling. It tells a story about 566 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: a plot. You know, there are villains to it. Usually 567 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: it alleges all these conspiracies and and you know, and 568 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: there's a hero that's the leader, you know, who's going 569 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: to be the only one to protect to you and 570 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: make everything great. I mean, most of the most of 571 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: the bad, the worst religious movements in the world have 572 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: a similar kind of like, uh, storytelling thrust. They've got 573 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: a plot with villains that must be faced off in 574 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: an ultimate battle. It's not hard to see why these 575 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: ideologies are very attractive to people. I mean, they're they're 576 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: like the movies we love the most. Yeah. Yeah, And 577 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: and we're gonna come back to this idea as well, 578 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: because this gets I think into the concept of the 579 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: terror of history. All Right, let's take one more break 580 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: and then we come back. We'll discuss more about the 581 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: idea of the narrative of self. Alright, we're back. So 582 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: another individual that popped up on that ideas episode and 583 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: uh And, who also wrote an excellent piece for Ian 584 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: magazine titled Let's ditch the dangerous idea that life is 585 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: a story. Uh is a professor of philosophy University of 586 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: Texas at Austin, Galen Strawson, and he takes issue with 587 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: the notion that a self narrative as universal or even important. 588 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: He thinks that it varies greatly from person to person 589 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: how much stock they put in the idea of a 590 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: personal narrative, and that even those of us who think 591 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: we put stock in a personal narrative, it might not 592 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: really hold up to a lot of close analysis. And 593 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: but you know, this is the basic idea that like 594 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: I am a character in a story. My life is 595 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: a story, and thinking of your life as such, and 596 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: and so I I do think there are probably some 597 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: people who who almost you know, very literally think that I, 598 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: for myself like this made. I did a lot of 599 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: self reflection after listening to him and reading his words 600 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: on this, And I do feel like I tend to 601 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: sort of casually think of myself as an as a 602 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: character in a story. But then when I stopped to 603 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: really think about it, I don't. I don't think I 604 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: actually do it all that much. I I think I 605 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: consciously sometimes try not to. Um, this is something I 606 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: might even I don't know when this essay was published 607 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: in the end, but uh, I might have read it 608 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: when it came out in any case, uh, whether or 609 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: not I have, I mean, I've encountered ideas before about 610 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: the pitfalls of telling this this story about yourself, that's 611 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: the narrative of your life and you're the main character 612 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: in it. I think that can lead to a lot 613 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: of self aggrandizing or self pitying, myopic thinking. Yeah, because 614 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: you might be telling a great story about yourself, and 615 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: that can be at the appropriate level, that can be 616 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: very encouraging. Give you motivation. But if it's too great 617 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: a story, well then you're getting into areas of overconfidence 618 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: or even delusion. Likewise, if you're telling too sad of 619 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: a story, you know, a story that's too concerned with 620 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: with you know, with misery, with you know, defining yourself 621 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: by something that happened to you or or something that 622 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: you did, then then that that's not a healthy exercise either. 623 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: It's um. Yeah, there's so much room for error in this, 624 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 1: absolutely so. I mean I tried it. It's not like 625 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: I succeeded this most of the time. But I think 626 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: it's an ongoing project of mine at least to try 627 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: to really believe the fact that I, as a self 628 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: do not exist. I mean, my body exists and my 629 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: brain exists, and I continue doing things. But the me, 630 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: the version of me that I picture when I start 631 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: getting into story mode, does not exist and is not real. 632 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: Uh that the self is in many ways an illusion. 633 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: You are instead, you know, you're a body doing things 634 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: moment from to moment, and you have this conscious appreciation 635 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: of it, and you can tell whatever kind of story 636 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: about that you want, But that doesn't mean it's true. Yeah, 637 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,479 Speaker 1: I will say that one thing that I do find 638 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 1: myself doing a lot is taking another person's sort of 639 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: another person's life and the sort of the story version 640 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: of it, holding it up and then comparing it to 641 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: my life. And you know a lot of times it 642 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: is going to be with people that we consider heroes 643 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: of some in some form or another, right or oh, no, 644 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: do you do the like, what did this person published 645 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: by my age? That sort of thing? Or you know, 646 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: what did they accomplished by the time Uh they were 647 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: my age? Were they dead by the time they were 648 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: my hates that sort of thing. I've fallen into this. Yeah, sorry, 649 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: what were saying? No, No, I'm just saying that I 650 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: do find myself doing it, and it's it's ultimately kind 651 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: of a dumb exercise because you're either or at least 652 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: when I do it, I end up either using it 653 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: as a way to beat myself up or to pat 654 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: myself on the back, and it's like, oh, don't worry this, 655 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: this person didn't get anything done in their life till 656 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: they were sixty. A lot of times too, we're comparing 657 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: our lives to these just outright fictional narratives. And you know, 658 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: how healthy is that if you're like you're you're comparing 659 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: yourself to a character in a tragedy or or even 660 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: if a character in a you know, some sort of 661 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 1: an adventure story, that again is not going to really 662 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: match up to actual life. So Strawson points out that 663 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: that self analysis is important, and we see variations of 664 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: the know thyself mantra dating back to like ancient Egypt. 665 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: But but there's ultimately a broad spectrum here. You know, 666 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: we all tend to recognize the value of living in 667 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: the moment rather than focusing on self or a narrative. 668 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: But of course that doesn't mean we do it. And 669 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: there's only so much of it we can do in 670 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: our modern lives. So like you, you can't really just 671 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: live in the moment all the time. We have to 672 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: engage in a certain amount of mental time travel. We 673 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: have to we have to reflect, we have to look 674 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: back on the past and and uh and and at 675 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: least consider our mistakes and our traumas in order to 676 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: move forward. But uh, you know, but he does stress 677 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: the self aspect and all of this. A self narrative 678 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: is in many ways inherently self interested and self focused. 679 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: And there's there's you know, there's certainly a lot of 680 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,919 Speaker 1: room for personal growth there, but there's also a great 681 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: deal of room for again just egotistical self obsession and 682 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: pride and just going me, me, me as you as 683 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: you envision this story. Well. Also, I think whenever you 684 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: imagine yourself as the main character of a narrative, you 685 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: run the risk of thinking of other people in the 686 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: world as sidecaracs. In a story, there are supporting characters, 687 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: but in reality, nobody's I mean, everybody's the main character 688 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: of their own life, I guess, um so or. And 689 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: then also villains, you know, like, oh yeah, totally. Granted, 690 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: some of us are unfortunate enough to have encountered individuals 691 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: that more directly fall into the villain um archetype, someone 692 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: who is a direct, sometimes even physical danger to ourselves 693 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: that has to be dealt with or avoided, etcetera. But 694 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: for many obvious we I think we do have a 695 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: tendency to sort of manufacture villains absolutely. You know, you 696 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: see people do this. They they've picked somebody who has 697 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: become the villain of their life at this time, you know, 698 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,919 Speaker 1: somebody has a bad boss or something, and then they 699 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: get into the mode of where they just see more 700 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: and more evidence all the time of how awful this 701 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: person is, and they're like just building the case that yes, 702 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: this is the villain. Yeah, and this kind of thinking 703 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: is the kind of it can lead to things like 704 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: viewing members of others, say socioeconomic classes, as being just 705 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: default villains, or or other races as being villainous. Um. 706 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes even in just kind of uh, you know, 707 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: more of a subconscious way as opposed to in an 708 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: overt way. But anyway, Strawson, though, he ultimately argues that 709 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, there are many ways of living an examined life, 710 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: because that's what Socrates called for. He said an unexamined 711 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: life is not worth living. But he says, you know, 712 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: we don't have to depend on a bunch of quotes 713 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: self directed poking around. Uh. He says we can instead 714 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: read good novels and focus on other people. And he 715 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: argues that being an ethical person is better executed not 716 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: in focusing on your story sort of the overarching shape 717 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: of your life that you're sort of hallucinating, but rather 718 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: in focusing focusing on immediate opportunities for positive action. Yeah. 719 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: And again, by focusing on the overall shape of your 720 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: life as a story, you're inevitably not really going to 721 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: be thinking about it in a very clear way. You're 722 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: you're automatically biasing you're thinking about yourself by doing that. 723 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting if you if you think 724 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: of life as a story, there's plenty of room for 725 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: for awful actions, so long as there's a you know, 726 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: a redemptive um uh you know story arc involved, right, 727 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: Like ebene'z or Scrooge, for instance, is an awful person 728 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: for the vast majority of his life, but then he 729 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: turns it around at the very end. And of course, 730 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: of course we see this in so many redemption stories, 731 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: people who even today work a book deal or even 732 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,959 Speaker 1: a kind of career out of having the right out 733 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: of darkness story or making a correction in their life. 734 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: And I mean it's weird to sort of to judge 735 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: that because on one hand, like that is inspiring, Like 736 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: we should have inspiring stories of people being able to 737 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: turn their life around and make changes. Like ebene'z or 738 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: Scrooge is ultimately a positive figure because he does turn 739 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: it around at the end, But but then it also 740 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: like discounts a lot of awful stuff early on. Well, 741 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like the redemption story is something 742 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: that is is fine when it's backward looking, but not 743 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: when it's forward looking, you know, like when somebody when 744 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: somebody turns their life around. I'm not one of those 745 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: people who thinks it's good to like continually say no, no, no, 746 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: there can be no redemption for you. We must harp 747 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: on all the bad things you did in the past. 748 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: But if somebody is currently doing bad things and planning 749 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: to continue doing bad things, but thinking sometime in the 750 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: future I could be better, obviously that's a that is 751 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: a moral failure and that that's not commendable. Well, and 752 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: I think this is where we can look to the 753 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: idea that narratives in some cases can maybe have a 754 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: negative effect on our lives. Where we're thinking, my, okay, 755 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: my life is currently falling into the shape of this 756 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: redemption story. I'm entering the abyss. But that's okay because 757 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: it's necessary. Like out of the abyss comes you know, 758 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: a reformed character. Um. The turning point is always now. 759 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: If you see the turning point, you should be turning 760 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: absolutely now. Another interesting point of Strawson's is that he 761 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: thinks we can really blame a lot of our modern 762 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: emphasis on narrative on some key big names and philosophy 763 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: um In particularly, he points out Scottish philosopher Alistair McIntyre, 764 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: who born in ninety nine, still alive as of this recording, 765 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: wrote After Virtue. Charles Taylor, one still alive as of 766 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: this recording, wrote Sources of the Self and argued for 767 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: the ethical necessity of thinking of yourself in a narrative way, 768 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: and then French philosopher Paul Racour through two thousand and 769 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: five who wrote Time and Narrative. But it's still something 770 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: that is continues on to this day. Strawson points to 771 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: Dan P. McAdams, a leading narrativest among social psychologists, and 772 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: writing in the Redemptive Self Stories Americans Live by two 773 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: thousand six, Uh, they write the following quote. Beginning in 774 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: late adolescence and young adulthood, we construct integrative narratives of 775 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: the self that selectively recall the past and wishfully anticipate 776 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: the future to provide our lives with some symblance of unity, purpose, 777 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: and identity. Personal identity is the internalized and evolving life 778 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: story that each of us is working on as we 779 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: move through our adult lives. I do not know who 780 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: I really am until I have a good understanding of 781 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,879 Speaker 1: my narrative identity. Well, it's possible that's true. I mean, 782 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: I don't know. So Strawson's arguing it's not actually necessary 783 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: to think of your life as a story, and that 784 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: you you can in some way avoid doing it right, 785 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: and that many of us don't do it that like, 786 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: it's not a universal thing, that there's a broad spectrum 787 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: of how we deal with it. Uh. Yeah, I I 788 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: don't know if he's right, or I don't know if 789 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: it's right that you have to in some way think 790 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: of your life as a story. I mean, either way, 791 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: I think it should help to recognize the negative capacity 792 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: we have, uh to to distort reality and excuse our 793 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: own bad behavior and encourage encourage negative patterns of thought 794 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: that are unproductive by thinking of our lives as a 795 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: certain kind of story and by thinking of other people 796 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: as characters in our story that way, So that at least, 797 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: I think, should we should think about and should give 798 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: us pause. And a lot of this comes back to 799 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: to just the particularly flawed idea of self. Uh. That's 800 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: one thing that Strawson points that out in that Ian 801 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: magazine piece that I mentioned earlier. He invokes the work 802 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: of developmental psychologist Eric Erickson and English more philosopher Mary 803 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: Midgeley to make a case that there is no self, 804 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: but that we are, in the words of painter Paul 805 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 1: Clee quote, a dramatic ensemble. Well I like that. Yeah, 806 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: I think that there's there's quite a few actors inside 807 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: all of us. Yeah. I mean, it's not just Jacqueline Hide. 808 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: It's it's it's a you know, there's a there's a 809 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: whole there's a whole array of people and Jackyl and 810 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: Hide and the butler and the police inspector and Colonel 811 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: Mustard and the whole crew. It was that guy Hide 812 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: stomped on a bunch beat with a cane. I don't remember, 813 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: it's been so long since I read that or watched 814 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: an adaptation. Well, he's in there, took old stomp. All right. Well, 815 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: I think maybe we should call the first episode there, 816 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: but we will be back in another episode where we 817 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: explore the psychology and euro science of stories. That's right. 818 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 1: And in the meantime, if you want to check out 819 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,320 Speaker 1: more episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, just go 820 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. 821 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 1: That's where will find all the episodes, links out to 822 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,879 Speaker 1: various social media accounts. A little tab store there pick 823 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: up a little merchandise. 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