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Speaker 1: Dear listener, just a quick warning. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about rape and femicide, so please take care.

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Speaker 2: Having access to this material was such a privilege. Enriched

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Speaker 2: my view of my sister, of my family, of our

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Speaker 2: times together, of Liliana's student, as a lover, as a friend.

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Speaker 2: That's another reason why I'm prone to say when I

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Speaker 2: talk about the book that this is not a writing

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Speaker 2: that I did about Lilliana, our own Liliana. This is

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Speaker 2: a book that I authored with her. This is a

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Speaker 2: book written in sisterhood.

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Speaker 1: From Futuro Media and BrX, It's Latino USA, I'm Maria

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Speaker 1: in no Hosa Today. A conversation with Politzer Prize winning

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Speaker 1: Mexican writer Christina Rivera Garza about finding the words to

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Speaker 1: name gender based crimes and why it took her thirty

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Speaker 1: years to write a memoir about her sister's murder. Gristina

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Speaker 1: Ribera Garasa describes herself as a migrant writer. She was

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Speaker 1: born in Matamoros, on the Mexican side of the US

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Speaker 1: Mexico border, but for the last thirty years she's lived

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Speaker 1: in Houston, Texas. There she directs the PhD program in

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Speaker 1: Creative Writing in Spanish at the University of Houston, which

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Speaker 1: is the first PhD program of its kind in the country.

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Speaker 1: Last year, Gristina won the Pulitzer Prize for Memoir for

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Speaker 1: Liliana's Invincible Summer. It's a deeply intimate book where Gristina

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Speaker 1: reconstructs the life of her younger and only sister, Liliana,

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Speaker 1: who was allegedly killed by her ex boyfriend when she

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Speaker 1: was only twenty years old. Her case was never sold,

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Speaker 1: and the alleged perpetrator remains at large. Her memoir is

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Speaker 1: now receiving attention in the United States, but in Mexico,

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Speaker 1: her book's impact went far beyond the page.

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Speaker 3: It sparked a.

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Speaker 1: Movement demanding justice for Lilliana's murder and for the hundreds

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Speaker 1: of cases like hers that remain unprosecuted. The Pulitzer isn't

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Speaker 1: the first award Gatristina received. In twenty twenty, she got

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Speaker 1: a MacArthur Genius Grant, and that's when she began researching

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Speaker 1: her memoir. Gristina then returned to Mexico to explore the

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Speaker 1: emotional archive of her sister Lilliana, which essentially had been

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Speaker 1: stored in a box in a closet at her parents'

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Speaker 1: home since nineteen ninety. Gatristina opened that box and read

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Speaker 1: through Lilliana's many diaries and letters. She then interviewed and

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Speaker 1: spoke with her own family members and friends. After thirty

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Speaker 1: years of silence.

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Speaker 2: Lately, I tend to see her pretty much everywhere I go,

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Speaker 2: and I see her traces and just a testimony of

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Speaker 2: how powerful her experience was, not only in my life

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Speaker 2: and in the life of her own community.

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Speaker 1: Gristina has written novels, short stories, poetry, and even an opera,

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Speaker 1: but Lena's Invincible Summer, she says, was the hardest to

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Speaker 1: put on the page. Cristina Ribera Garza and I sat

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Speaker 1: down to talk about confronting gender based violence through literature,

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Speaker 1: also feminism in Mexico and in the United States, and

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Speaker 1: the particular superpower of being bilingual. Here's my conversation with

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Speaker 1: Christina Gristina. It is such an honor to have you

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Speaker 1: on Latino USA. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you for paying attention to my work.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of hard not to pay attention to

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Speaker 1: your work, Larida. Cristina is that it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: strange that both of us born in Mexico, both of

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Speaker 1: us writers. You're a writer in the field of memoir

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Speaker 1: and novel, etc. And I'm a journalist and a writer.

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Speaker 1: And then that the both of us of a similar

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Speaker 1: generation where within five years of each other would end

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Speaker 1: up receiving a Pulitzer Prize.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that something?

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Speaker 1: Let's start with you in Mexico. So you're born in

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Speaker 1: ill Norte de Mexico. Can you just tell me a

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Speaker 1: little bit about growing up.

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Speaker 2: I was born on the Mexican side of the US

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Speaker 2: Mexico border, in fact, in a city called Matamotos, is

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Speaker 2: the sister city of Brownsville. My grandparents met in Houston

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Speaker 2: and they married in Galveston. And in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 2: right after the nineteen twenty nine crash, there where these

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Speaker 2: anti immigrant policies issued by President Hoover, and so they

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Speaker 2: were pushed out of the United States and they came

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Speaker 2: back to Mexico and they lived in this area called

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Speaker 2: El Pola Nawa, very close to Matamoros, and that's where

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Speaker 2: I was born years later. So I'm a fron Terriso

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Speaker 2: by birth. I'm a migrant. I'm the daughter, the granddaughter

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Speaker 2: of migrants, and that's how I define myself. A migrant writer.

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Speaker 1: I wonder about this generation of US Mexicanas in their sixties.

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Speaker 1: It's you, it's me, and then there's somebody else, right,

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Speaker 1: the president of Mexico, that is true.

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Speaker 4: And Pico, the former Democrata Pacifica dijo ferte claro s

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Speaker 4: t transformacion.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm wondering, how do you see this generation of

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Speaker 1: Mexicanas who are also border crossers.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: When Claudia Scheinbem was elected as President of Mexico, I

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Speaker 2: was reminding everybody that when my mom was born in

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty three, she was not allowed to vote in

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Speaker 2: federal elections. So here we are, and we have a

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Speaker 2: woman as a president of American and that's quite a change.

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Speaker 2: I was also reminded of the fact that we went

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Speaker 2: through a very strong period of mobilizations, feminist mobilizations, both

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Speaker 2: in the seventies in the United States and later on

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Speaker 2: in Mexico and throughout Latin America. I think is the

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Speaker 2: strength of those mobilizations that help explain why people like

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Speaker 2: you and I are doing what we're doing, and why

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Speaker 2: now we have a woman as a president of Mexico.

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Speaker 2: I think the way in which women in the last

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five years have taken.

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Speaker 3: Up public space, public.

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Speaker 2: Language in which they have reclaimed that space in our

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Speaker 2: cultural on social life is absolutely relevant.

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Speaker 1: You and I we were also vulnerable as young women

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Speaker 1: in a Mexican society that was still and remains in

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Speaker 1: many ways very machista, very controlling of women. And I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering how you put those two things together, because that,

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Speaker 1: in the end, is part of why you end up

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Speaker 1: writing this book about your sister.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me that for a number of years,

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Speaker 2: we as a society and I personally as a writer,

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Speaker 2: lacked the kind of language they would allow me to

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Speaker 2: tell these stories, not from the perspective of patriarchy as such,

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Speaker 2: but from the perspective of the victims of the women's

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Speaker 2: themselves and their families and their communities. And it took

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Speaker 2: us a number of years, thirty years in my case,

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Speaker 2: to be able to gather this language, to understand this language,

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Speaker 2: to tell a story like Lilliana's Invisible Summer from Lilliana's

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Speaker 2: point of view, I wanted to do something totally different,

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Speaker 2: but that's something that took time and the effort of many.

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Speaker 3: It's such an intimate book.

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Speaker 1: Christina osa to be reading the journal entries of your sister. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it took you thirty years essentially to be able to

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Speaker 1: dive into this emotionally. And I'm thinking about I was

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Speaker 1: raped as a young woman in Mexico, and it takes

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Speaker 1: years before you're able to use this word. In my case,

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Speaker 1: yes I'm a survivor, but in your case, being able

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Speaker 1: to label what happened to your sister, which back then

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Speaker 1: was labeled as a crime of passion. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about understanding and getting to the point where you had

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Speaker 1: the words to be able to talk about something so

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Speaker 1: horrible and yet so intimate.

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Speaker 2: First of all, Maria, thank you for sharing also pieces

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Speaker 2: of your life story. I think this is very relevant

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Speaker 2: and I'm very sorry that this happened to you. And

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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why I think it's so

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Speaker 2: important to be able to name things and to talk

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Speaker 2: about to activate an urgent conversation about violence against women.

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Speaker 2: This is something that we all leave, we all have faced,

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Speaker 2: and so one of the reasons why it is so

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Speaker 2: difficult to even talk about it is because once we

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Speaker 2: have lacked that language for many years, and second, patriarchy

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Speaker 2: is not at all interested in us speaking freely about

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Speaker 2: these issues, forcifully silencing these acts of daily violence and

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Speaker 2: the acts of extreme violence like femicide, is something that

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Speaker 2: benefits patriarchy and power in general. And that's one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons why I really believe that writing it could

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Speaker 2: be fiction or nonfiction, and its capacity of working closely

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Speaker 2: with language is so politically relevant at this point in time,

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Speaker 2: and in my case, in the writing of this book,

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Speaker 2: I don't think I would have been able to write it,

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Speaker 2: to even think about it without Lilliana's own papers, what

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Speaker 2: I've been calling now Lilliana's effective archive. Having access to

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Speaker 2: this material was such a privilege and reached my view

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Speaker 2: of my sister, of my family, of our times together,

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Speaker 2: of Lilliana's student, as a lover, as a friend. And

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Speaker 2: that's another reason why I'm prone to say when I

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Speaker 2: talk about the book that this is not a writing

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Speaker 2: that I did about Lilliana, our own Liliana. This is

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Speaker 2: a book that I authored with her. This is a

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Speaker 2: book written in sisterhood. I guess that's the reason why

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Speaker 2: it feels so intimate. I wanted Lilliana to be the

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Speaker 2: shimmering light in the book. At the same time I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to leave her alone in the book, so

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Speaker 2: I had to incorporate myself. Since I I was invoking her,

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Speaker 2: I felt a responsibility.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to be with her.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to join her in this journey back into

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Speaker 2: our times and our streets and our conversations.

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Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino Usay what Christina Rivera Garza discovered

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Speaker 1: about her sister Lilliana while doing research for her memoir

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Speaker 1: Stay with Us macdvayas Hey, we're back before the break.

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Speaker 1: Christina Rivera Garza opened up about the challenges of writing

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Speaker 1: her Pulitzer Prize winning memoir, Lillana's Invincible Summer. In the book,

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Speaker 1: she researches the life and the murder of her younger sister.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the conversation. Were it not for

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Speaker 1: her papers, Lillianna's papers, you would not have this work.

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Speaker 1: But then you did this journalistic endeavor. You went and

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Speaker 1: you interviewed all of her close friends, your parents, your

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Speaker 1: own family. And I wondered if they said, Christina, no,

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Speaker 1: are you really going to do this? And so what

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Speaker 1: it took for you to say yes, no, I've got

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Speaker 1: to do this.

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Speaker 2: When I finally was brave enough to open up those

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Speaker 2: boxes where I knew we had stored Lelena's belongings. The

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Speaker 2: overwhelming sensation was that Leleana was surrounding me, that she

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Speaker 2: was there with me. And that's when I got to

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Speaker 2: think that I was touching the pieces of paper, the

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Speaker 2: ink that Lilliana had placed there thirty years prior, and

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Speaker 2: her touch was the last right there on those documents.

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Speaker 2: What I imagine that point, and this is not just some

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Speaker 2: magical realism explanation or some new agey thing. It was

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Speaker 2: like a material sensation. So I'm placing my hand when

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Speaker 2: Lillana placed hers, and these papers have been untouched for

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Speaker 2: thirty years. It took me days, perhaps weeks, just to

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Speaker 2: be able to phrase what had happened. When I opened

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Speaker 2: those boxes. It was then that I knew I had

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Speaker 2: a book. I had tried to write this book a

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Speaker 2: couple of times, and I was never able to do it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know why. I just knew that these manuscripts

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Speaker 2: were no good. But then when I was so close,

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Speaker 2: you know, physically close to the material, then I knew,

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Speaker 2: this is it, this is what I've been liking all

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Speaker 2: these years. I needed Lilliana's own voice. I didn't need

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Speaker 2: to create to forge this voice in a fiction type

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Speaker 2: of structure. Lilliana was careful enough throughout her life to

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Speaker 2: preserve voice and to keep all those materials in these boxes.

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Speaker 2: So once I got there, I then decided that I

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Speaker 2: needed to have more information. We are members of complex communities.

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Speaker 2: We are made by others and unmade often too by others.

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Speaker 2: So I needed to have those perspectives from friends and

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Speaker 2: the old classmates. Fortunately, Maria, they were so generous. I

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Speaker 2: had not remained in touch with them for thirty years.

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Speaker 3: All of them.

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Speaker 2: It was as they were expecting the phone call, that

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Speaker 2: they've been waiting for that phone call for a long time.

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Speaker 2: And the only thing that I mentioned at the beginning

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Speaker 2: was that I wanted to see if they could give

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Speaker 2: me with a memory of my sister. I didn't ask

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Speaker 2: for a specifics. I just wanted the memory that for

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Speaker 2: them encapsulated my sister's connection with them.

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Speaker 3: And that's how we created or the book.

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Speaker 2: Was able to forge this community that surround the Liliana,

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Speaker 2: that shame in many ways Lilliana's life.

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Speaker 1: So, Christina, your sister was so young when she was murdered.

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Speaker 1: She was only twenty years old. And yet she was

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Speaker 1: incredibly prolific and filled with passion. But here you are

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Speaker 1: her older sister, who obviously you had a very tight relationship.

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Speaker 1: But now you're reading all of this work. What did

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Speaker 1: you realize about Lilliana that you didn't know?

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Speaker 2: There was quite a n age difference between both of

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Speaker 2: us five years, so we never shared friends, for example,

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Speaker 2: and what we did together there was swimming in the

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Speaker 2: same swimming team in Teluca. I grew up believing that

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Speaker 2: I was the one interested in literature and writing and

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Speaker 2: the Liliana, on the other hand, was more passionate about

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Speaker 2: visual arts and architecture. But I didn't know how voracious

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Speaker 2: a reader she was. I didn't know that she was

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Speaker 2: such a writer. The letters that I read indicate to

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Speaker 2: me that Lelena was not only expressing herself we all

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Speaker 2: are prone to do when we're young, but she was

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Speaker 2: playing very intentionally with forum as well. And Leanna's capacity

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Speaker 2: of love, I think it's something that every single friend

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Speaker 2: that I talked to confirmed, and that's something that I

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Speaker 2: always felt. I think I've been able to go through

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Speaker 2: this life with this kind of shield in front of me,

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Speaker 2: knowing that I was loved completely. No questions asked that

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Speaker 2: I was loved in such a profound way, and having

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Speaker 2: that as an experience that you've gone through at an

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Speaker 2: early age, I think protects you. I knew my parents

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Speaker 2: loved me, but that's expected, although sadly is not always

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Speaker 2: the case. But having a sister, someone that I had

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Speaker 2: disagreements with and fights with, of course, knowing that her

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Speaker 2: love was so profound and so truthful, I think that

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Speaker 2: that protected me against pretty much everything and allowed me

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Speaker 2: to grow up to evolve more freely.

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Speaker 3: Too.

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Speaker 1: I love the fact that you're talking about this love

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Speaker 1: from your younger sister as being so central in your life.

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Speaker 1: So your book is published at a time when femicides,

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Speaker 1: which is the murder of women because of their gender,

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Speaker 1: are high in Mexico. The word impunity is always the

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Speaker 1: next word after femicide. Your sister's case, in fact, remains unsolved,

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Speaker 1: the alleged killer remains at large, And of course the

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Speaker 1: thing is, it's not just happening in Mexico, but in

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Speaker 1: Mexico we have a name for it, right because here

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Speaker 1: in the United States, three women are killed every day

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Speaker 1: by an intimate partner, and femicide isn't even codified in

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Speaker 1: our laws, while in Mexico it is. So it's a

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Speaker 1: terrible thing, but at least you have a word for it.

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Speaker 1: And in many ways, le Lliana probably never imagined that

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Speaker 1: she would become a symbol for this particular word femicidio

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Speaker 1: or feminicidio, femicide. So Christina, are you hoping to have

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Speaker 1: some kind of impact on this massive issue of femicide

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Speaker 1: in Mexico with such an intimate book.

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Speaker 3: Something that we have.

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Speaker 2: To keep in mind about writing books, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you know these, is that we may have as authors

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Speaker 2: specific intentions, things that we want to accomplish. But fortunately,

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Speaker 2: I think books end up doing whatever books want to do,

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Speaker 2: and this is because readers embrace books or reject books.

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Speaker 2: So I was not expecting such a generous embrace. I

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Speaker 2: was not thinking about dozens and hundreds of young women

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Speaker 2: marching on the street, and remember Lilliana chanting her name,

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Speaker 2: claiming for justice not only for Lilliana but for all

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Speaker 2: women who we've lost to gender violence. So all these

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Speaker 2: things I was not expecting them. I am absolutely grateful

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Speaker 2: that they are happening, of course, because I do believe

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Speaker 2: there is at least in Mexico and I think in

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Speaker 2: the Spanish speaking world, in Latin America, there is a

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Speaker 2: very dynamic conversation about gender violence. Feminism has become, in

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Speaker 2: my view, the moral compass, the real opposition in many

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Speaker 2: cases to governments that pay very little attention to women

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Speaker 2: suffering and to gender violence specifically, but not so much

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Speaker 2: in the English speaking world, not in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Every time that I mentioned the word femin side, people.

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Speaker 3: Kind of turn. They hesitate.

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Speaker 2: When I enunciate the word femicide, people think that I

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Speaker 2: can speak really good English because these are terms that

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Speaker 2: are not in use in our daily life, and they

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Speaker 2: should because gender violence, specifically violence against women and femicide

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Speaker 2: are part of our daily life in the United States

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Speaker 2: at least, And so I really I would hope that

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Speaker 2: Liliana's Invisible Summer, the English version of this book, could

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Speaker 2: activate an urgent conversation. We should be able to name

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Speaker 2: things the right way and hopefully protecting that way women

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Speaker 2: in our midst and above all the next generations, younger

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Speaker 2: women deserve to be able to name what sometimes is

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Speaker 2: so difficult to even pinpoint. And that's one of the

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Speaker 2: difficulties aboutite and gender violence, that they are so intertwined

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Speaker 2: with the language of romantic law, that sometimes it's difficult

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Speaker 2: to set them apart to see which one is which.

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Speaker 3: I do believe that if we start to.

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Speaker 2: Talk openly, compassionately about these issues, many lives.

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Speaker 3: Could be saved.

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Speaker 1: So you come to do your PhD In history, but

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Speaker 1: then you actually devote your time to writing novels. For you,

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Speaker 1: thinking and writing both in English and in Spanish is

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Speaker 1: a statement about your life, and again another similarity. The

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Speaker 1: both of us see this as a kind of political act.

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Speaker 1: And with this book, you actually ended up translating yourself

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Speaker 1: from Spanish to English, which I cannot even imagine. But

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Speaker 1: you went further because it wasn't just translating the words

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Speaker 1: on paper. And it's really fascinating that you're pushing this

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Speaker 1: notion of bilingualism and the power of bilingualism as a writer,

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Speaker 1: because I always felt it was my weakness. I've always

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Speaker 1: thought I'm less of a writer because I'm not perfectly

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Speaker 1: good in Spanish and I'm not perfectly good in English.

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Speaker 1: And so talk to us about what I call now

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Speaker 1: our superpower, right, it is.

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Speaker 2: A superpower, definitely. You know, I've been thinking a lot

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Speaker 2: about why I was doing this for this book, and

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Speaker 2: not for other books, because I've been publishing my books

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Speaker 2: which I've written in Spanish from within the United States,

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Speaker 2: and I've been publishing them in Spanish. But for this

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Speaker 2: specific book, I found myself writing in Spanish with kind

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Speaker 2: of came naturally to me. But some other mornings I

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Speaker 2: was surprised by the fact that I started to write

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Speaker 2: in English, and instead of limiting or trying to change

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Speaker 2: on that reaction, I decided to just let it go

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Speaker 2: to see what it would take me. The next day

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Speaker 2: or a couple of days after that, I would revise

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Speaker 2: what I've written before using the opposite language.

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Speaker 3: And then it became kind of.

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Speaker 1: A method so painful to painful and very that sounds

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Speaker 1: painful and scary.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like write or torture exactly, and very incredibly

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Speaker 3: slow too.

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Speaker 2: But then thinking about why could I submit myself to this,

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Speaker 2: then I've come up with this answer. I think that

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Speaker 2: English allowed me a protection emotionally, uh that Spanish was

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Speaker 2: not able to give me writing some of these events

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Speaker 2: that I lived in Spanish. Writing them in English now

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Speaker 2: I think allowed me a sort of necessary distance in

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Speaker 2: terms of the writing process. Obviously, this is these are

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Speaker 2: matters very close to my heart. That's the reason why I.

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Speaker 5: Think this book was written in that way, Christina, the

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Speaker 5: way you write about your sister's life been snuffed out

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Speaker 5: for being a woman who just wanted to be free.

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Speaker 1: And yet at the end of your book you bring

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Speaker 1: it really into this very intimate place, the fact that

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Speaker 1: you were swimmers, And I'm wondering if you can talk

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Speaker 1: to us about if you're still swimming, where you're swimming,

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Speaker 1: how you're swimming, and what's happening to you is you swim.

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Speaker 2: The swimming pool is a place where I meet my sister,

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Speaker 2: when I met her when she was alive, because we

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Speaker 2: belonged to the same team, and when I see her,

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Speaker 2: when I feel her now in all the swimming pools

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Speaker 2: that I've been swimming, both in the United States and Mexico.

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Speaker 2: My parents enrolled us in this swimming team because they

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Speaker 2: wanted us to have something to do, and then it

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Speaker 2: became more than just a sport. It was a way

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Speaker 2: of getting to a place, an inner place that I

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Speaker 2: shared with my sister in that sense.

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Speaker 3: But that is also.

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Speaker 2: Very intimate and very true, right, and I need tons

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Speaker 2: of that for writing. So that's a connection that I

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Speaker 2: see between the two.

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Speaker 1: Christina, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for all of your work, and for believing in your voice,

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Speaker 1: and for making your sister unforgettable in the book Lilliana's

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Speaker 1: Invincible Summer, and for making us all fall in love

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Speaker 1: with her.

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Speaker 5: She should be here with us.

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Speaker 3: She is here with us.

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Speaker 1: After the interview, we ask Christina to read a passage

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Speaker 1: from the last chapter of her memoir, Lilliana's Invincible Summer.

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Speaker 2: I have said on numerous occasions that one swims to

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Speaker 2: be alone, but that's only half true. Sometimes it is

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Speaker 2: necessary to go alone, to swim by oneself, next to

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Speaker 2: no one, in order to join a communion in the water.

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Speaker 2: In geology, time is a concept used to measure the

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Speaker 2: duration of persistence of a substance or a portion of

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Speaker 2: material or a body in a specific location, such as

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Speaker 2: the ocean, earth, or the atmosphere.

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Speaker 3: It could be water in a pool.

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Speaker 2: Sodium, for example, has a residence time of two hanna

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Speaker 2: and sixty million years. Lilliana will reside here with me

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Speaker 2: as long as I plunged into the water. When I

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Speaker 2: stroke and kick and breathin becomes fleshed memory.

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Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Mitzi Pineda and edited by

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Speaker 1: Marta Martinez. It was mixed by Julia Caruso, with engineering

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Speaker 1: support JJ Grubin. The Latino USA team also includes Roxanna Guire,

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Speaker 1: Fernando Chavari, Jessica Ellis, Victoria Estrada, Dominique Estrosa, Renaldolanos Junior,

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Lebau, Andrea Lopez Cruzado, Luis Luna, Tasha Sandoval, Nour

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Speaker 1: Saudi and Nancy Truchuillo, Benillei Ramirez, Marlon Bishop, Maria Garcia

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Speaker 1: and myself are co executive producers. I'm your host, Maria Jojosa.

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Speaker 1: Join us again on our next episode. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: I'll see you on social media and remember not de maayes.

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Speaker 5: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising

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Speaker 5: Simons Foundation, Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities.

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Speaker 3: More at Hsfoundation, dot org, Skyline Foundation and W. K.

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Speaker 4: Kellogg Foundation, a partner with communities where Children Come First