WEBVTT - The Birthday Party with Charles Randolph | Development Hell 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:24.756 --> 0:00:28.516 It's Oscar Night twenty sixteen. The stage of the Adobe 0:00:28.556 --> 0:00:31.676 Theater is set with what looks like a thousand candles. 0:00:32.116 --> 0:00:35.876 Hollywood stars are lined up in the front rows, colorful dresses, 0:00:36.196 --> 0:00:40.756 careful hairstyles, and endless cameras ready to pan from the 0:00:40.836 --> 0:00:45.196 crowd to the presenters. Ah, here comes Russell Crowe and 0:00:45.276 --> 0:00:48.996 Ryan Gosling. Ryan Gosling has a gold envelope. 0:00:48.556 --> 0:00:52.436 In his hand. Good evening, folks. We're here to present 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:56.396 the award the Best Adapted Screenplay. And not to get 0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:58.636 too technical, but that's the screenplay that was the best 0:00:58.676 --> 0:01:01.836 at adapting to whatever harsh conditions and obstacles were thrown 0:01:01.876 --> 0:01:02.316 in its way. 0:01:05.356 --> 0:01:09.316 No, it's a screenplay adapted from another source, which is 0:01:09.356 --> 0:01:12.556 a novel play, short story, or a TV show. 0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:15.436 Agree to disagree? 0:01:15.556 --> 0:01:20.916 Okay, well exactly because what are we interested in in 0:01:20.916 --> 0:01:25.316 this series on development? Hell, the maladapted screenplay, the movie 0:01:25.396 --> 0:01:28.396 idea that does not survive the harsh conditions and obstacles 0:01:28.756 --> 0:01:35.556 thrown in its way. Anyway, back to the twenty sixteen Oscars, 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:42.156 the video montage for Best Adapted Screenplay lists Brooklyn, Carol Room, 0:01:42.676 --> 0:01:48.636 The Martian and The Big Short Gosling opens the envelope 0:01:48.676 --> 0:01:48.836 and the. 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:49.596 Oscar goes to. 0:01:52.596 --> 0:01:55.076 Charles Randolph and Adam McKay the Big Short. 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:07.076 Allow me a little bit of name dropping. Charles Randolph, 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:10.676 winner of that Oscar, is my and my best friend. 0:02:11.116 --> 0:02:13.436 I met him twenty five years ago when he just 0:02:13.516 --> 0:02:16.476 started screenwriting, and since then he's done the life of 0:02:16.556 --> 0:02:22.036 David Gaale, the Interpreter, Love Another, Drugs, Bombshell, and Big Short. 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:24.316 And when he got the Oscar for Big Short. I 0:02:24.396 --> 0:02:26.836 was at an Oscar watching party in Brooklyn and I 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:32.036 got so emotional I had to hide in the bathroom. 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:35.916 Mister Randolph, mister Goagwell, how are you, my friend? 0:02:36.076 --> 0:02:39.196 I'm good, I'm good. Normally Charles would just walk over 0:02:39.236 --> 0:02:42.116 to the studio. His office is down the hall, But 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:45.036 today he's calling me from London, where he and his 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:46.996 family are living for the school year. 0:02:47.796 --> 0:02:50.516 How's it going now? I haven't seen him forever. I 0:02:50.596 --> 0:02:51.356 miss you, Charles. 0:02:51.396 --> 0:02:53.676 Le just do our thingy we can Okay, okay, okay. 0:02:53.956 --> 0:02:58.196 Notice the interaction he says he misses me. I get 0:02:58.196 --> 0:03:01.516 all flustered and try and get on with things. I 0:03:01.556 --> 0:03:07.436 love Charles because I love Charles. There was no question 0:03:07.556 --> 0:03:10.436 I was going to ask Charles for development hell story, 0:03:10.836 --> 0:03:14.116 because I've talked with him at length about every screenplay 0:03:14.156 --> 0:03:17.076 he's worked on for the last twenty five years, and 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:19.996 I knew instantly which one. 0:03:19.836 --> 0:03:20.396 He would pick. 0:03:21.436 --> 0:03:31.716 Welcome back to episode four of Development Hell. So tell me, 0:03:32.916 --> 0:03:36.716 tell me how that whole thing begins. Start at the beginning. 0:03:37.276 --> 0:03:43.316 So Paula Wagner and Tom Cruise by a book from 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:46.476 a guy named Stanning Albert called The Birthday Party, which 0:03:46.516 --> 0:03:51.596 is a true story of him in January on January 0:03:51.636 --> 0:03:56.916 twenty first, nineteen ninety eight, walking through the West Village 0:03:57.236 --> 0:04:01.556 and he is approached by a young black man on 0:04:01.596 --> 0:04:04.516 his right who he realized has a gun, and the 0:04:04.556 --> 0:04:07.316 young man leads him to a vehicle that's I think 0:04:07.316 --> 0:04:09.996 they're on thirteenth Street, maybe twelfth eleve them it's right 0:04:10.036 --> 0:04:14.236 off Fifth Avenue. And there's another young black man waiting 0:04:14.236 --> 0:04:16.676 who opens the door, and a third black young black 0:04:16.676 --> 0:04:21.436 man in the car, and they basically kidnap him to 0:04:21.516 --> 0:04:26.116 steal money out of his bank account. And what's interesting 0:04:26.316 --> 0:04:30.076 is they're incredibly young. I think the oldest one is 0:04:30.156 --> 0:04:33.556 maybe just turned eighteen. His name is Lucky. The others 0:04:33.676 --> 0:04:36.876 are sixteen and I think fourteen, and they have no 0:04:36.956 --> 0:04:40.596 clue what they're doing, right, They have no understanding because 0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:41.996 they don't have bank accounts, right, so they have no 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:44.956 understanding that ATMs have a limit. They don't believe it. 0:04:44.996 --> 0:04:47.636 At first. They see how much money he has in 0:04:47.676 --> 0:04:49.836 his account. I think it's over one hundred thousand dollars. 0:04:49.836 --> 0:04:51.956 So they anxiously want to get that money and it 0:04:52.076 --> 0:04:54.716 drives them mad the system that they just can't get 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:57.716 that money out over the course of a night, right, 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:01.756 So they decide to hold him in Brooklyn with an 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:06.036 apartment with three young women. It's basically three young women 0:05:06.116 --> 0:05:08.116 that sort of work for Lucky maybe it's kind of 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:13.956 hard to tell as prostitutes. And he's held there for 0:05:15.156 --> 0:05:19.196 firs you know, basically almost I think seventy two hours, 0:05:20.156 --> 0:05:24.396 and a relationship develops with these kids, and at some 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:26.756 point they're offering him pot, they offer him a blowjob 0:05:26.796 --> 0:05:29.316 once they find out that it's birthday. They're holding him 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:31.556 on his birthday. That's why it's called the birthday party. 0:05:32.356 --> 0:05:34.876 It'll be his thirty ninth birthday. They want to get 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:39.036 they want to get the money outs. They sort of 0:05:39.036 --> 0:05:41.156 had to plan to go into the bank with him. 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:43.556 Of course that's not going to work. He sort of 0:05:43.636 --> 0:05:46.396 talks them out of that. To keep him honest. They 0:05:46.556 --> 0:05:49.556 threaten his father and they sort of ask, you know, 0:05:49.676 --> 0:05:53.876 ask for his father's address, and Stanley, knowing that his 0:05:53.916 --> 0:05:56.716 father's business card is in his wallet, can't really lie. 0:05:57.236 --> 0:06:00.356 They end up discussing killing him. So it's a test 0:06:00.476 --> 0:06:02.156 they do at one point. So it's just a really 0:06:02.276 --> 0:06:04.836 tense situation where he's you know, he's afraid for his life. 0:06:05.836 --> 0:06:08.836 And it turns out they you know, there's no way 0:06:08.876 --> 0:06:11.196 they can making making get the money out, and so 0:06:11.196 --> 0:06:13.636 they decide to let him go. With their adolescence to 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:18.356 their adolescents, and it's also it's adolescence, yes, right, it's right. 0:06:18.436 --> 0:06:20.556 It's three teenage boys. 0:06:20.276 --> 0:06:23.556 Absolutely correct. I mean three and three teenage girls as well, 0:06:23.556 --> 0:06:25.436 who are also quite young. I think their youngest one 0:06:25.516 --> 0:06:28.876 is fourteen even, and they just they just do teenage stuff. 0:06:28.876 --> 0:06:31.356 They have teenage perspectives, they have you know, you know, 0:06:31.436 --> 0:06:33.796 yet they're very worldly, you know what I mean, yeah, 0:06:34.316 --> 0:06:36.996 you know, And so it's you know, there's there's young 0:06:37.036 --> 0:06:39.476 one you know, one woman you know, talking about one 0:06:39.516 --> 0:06:41.916 sexual practice she won't do because she's saving it for marriage. 0:06:42.196 --> 0:06:44.116 You can imagine what that is. And it's just it's 0:06:44.116 --> 0:06:46.876 just it's a heartbreaking that that's her, that's the thing 0:06:46.996 --> 0:06:49.636 she's keeping, that's the thing that she has to offer, right, 0:06:49.716 --> 0:06:51.956 and so it's just it's it's just yeah, it's it's 0:06:51.996 --> 0:06:56.316 it's it's it's that youth, you know. But it's also moving. 0:06:56.356 --> 0:06:58.196 It's also sort of I mean, the book's quite good 0:06:58.196 --> 0:07:00.076 in that sense. It's like you get a sense of Wow, 0:07:00.156 --> 0:07:04.836 these you know, there's a real community amongst these kids, right, 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:07.836 they are wholly relying on each other, you know, and 0:07:07.876 --> 0:07:09.596 this is the only family they've got, and they're and 0:07:09.636 --> 0:07:12.156 they're they're they're down for that family. They'll do what 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:15.076 it takes for their families. Yeah, it just is one 0:07:15.116 --> 0:07:19.276 of those books where in reading it, it has a 0:07:19.316 --> 0:07:23.356 wrongness to it and a an authenticity to it. It's 0:07:23.396 --> 0:07:25.876 just very hard to find right as a story. 0:07:26.516 --> 0:07:29.476 Why was Why do you think Tom Cruise's people were 0:07:29.516 --> 0:07:33.116 attracted to this, to this book in the first place. 0:07:33.476 --> 0:07:37.636 Well, I think Stanley's a remarkable guy. He you know, 0:07:37.676 --> 0:07:40.116 what he does over the course of those three days 0:07:40.636 --> 0:07:42.796 is he pays attention to these little clues which you 0:07:42.836 --> 0:07:46.476 don't sort of see coming, uh, you see him noticing things, 0:07:46.556 --> 0:07:48.636 and then when he's being interviewed by the police, he 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:51.436 just repeats them back and they are there. They manage 0:07:51.956 --> 0:07:56.196 to find these six people very quickly, I mean extreme. 0:07:56.276 --> 0:07:58.756 You know, he did a remarkable job. He remembered little 0:07:58.756 --> 0:08:01.916 bits of numbers that he heard repeated, He remembered the 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:05.476 patterns on the floor, He identified the bus schedule going 0:08:05.516 --> 0:08:10.356 outside the building. He could sort of identified the flight 0:08:10.396 --> 0:08:13.396 patterns to JFK going over the building. He knew that 0:08:13.436 --> 0:08:16.276 it was a relative, relatively big boulevard in Queens. He 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:17.996 knew kind of he could kind of guess by the 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:20.556 sequels how far the ocean was away. And so he 0:08:20.636 --> 0:08:23.116 not only managed to save himself by building a relationship 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:26.156 with these young people, but he also managed to put 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:27.556 the police onto them very quickly. 0:08:28.316 --> 0:08:30.996 So that version, there's a slender version of the story 0:08:31.036 --> 0:08:33.636 which is just simply Sherla colmbs absolutely. 0:08:33.676 --> 0:08:35.836 And that's why I think I think that's in fairness 0:08:35.836 --> 0:08:37.356 to stand. I think that's what he thought he was getting. 0:08:37.356 --> 0:08:38.756 He thought he was going to get. You know, Tom 0:08:38.796 --> 0:08:41.236 Cruise's going to play this guy who you know, heroically 0:08:41.316 --> 0:08:43.996 saves himself, you know, and then bonds a little bit 0:08:43.996 --> 0:08:46.516 with these with these young people, but but then you know, 0:08:46.876 --> 0:08:50.036 it has to put them away. And I'm presented with 0:08:50.116 --> 0:08:53.676 this thing, and it's just it's a fantastic story, but 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:56.516 it has the obvious problem. Right, It's a story of 0:08:56.636 --> 0:08:59.596 three black, young black men holding a white guy, a lawyer, 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:03.316 a federal attorney, as a matter of fact, hostage, and 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:08.156 it's just it's hard to describe. It has an ethnocentrism 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:10.316 to it because it rooted in the perspective of the 0:09:10.356 --> 0:09:14.676 white guy. It just feels a little untoward. It's just 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:16.836 one of the stories that we in Hollywood can't tell. 0:09:17.076 --> 0:09:21.596 You simply cannot tell that story right. And you know, 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:24.716 if the film were being made, and you know, in 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:27.396 fifteen years earlier than nineteen ninety eight, he could have 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:29.356 gotten away with that. But by that period it was 0:09:29.396 --> 0:09:32.596 already too late to tell this story without fully honoring 0:09:32.636 --> 0:09:36.316 the humanity of the perpetrators. And so the thinking is, 0:09:36.436 --> 0:09:40.356 how can we take this and make it work? And 0:09:40.956 --> 0:09:45.476 what I end up doing is I turn up everyone's 0:09:46.316 --> 0:09:49.636 racism for lack of better phrase, right, I make Stanley 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:52.076 a guy who thinks he's a liberal, but he's trapped 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:55.276 by his own categories in the world. I make these kids, 0:09:55.316 --> 0:10:00.076 these kids who have very few opportunities and are trapped 0:10:00.076 --> 0:10:02.316 in their own kind of perspective of the other. So 0:10:02.316 --> 0:10:04.276 there these are a group of people who, even though 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:07.476 Stanley's being held in this apartment, blindfolded and basically in 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:11.076 a big room with six kids, six young people, he 0:10:11.156 --> 0:10:14.276 can't see them really literally and metaphorically, and they can't 0:10:14.276 --> 0:10:19.556 see him, right. Uh. And then what happens is, you know, 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:22.756 in the script, you know, he starts to rebel against 0:10:22.756 --> 0:10:25.436 this situation. He gets he gets angry, and they start 0:10:25.436 --> 0:10:29.596 to work through their own prejudices, prejudices against one another, 0:10:30.116 --> 0:10:32.916 and it sort of culminates in a in a in 0:10:32.956 --> 0:10:38.356 a scene where basically he unloads on them and he 0:10:38.476 --> 0:10:41.556 gives voice. I think a little bit of that old 0:10:41.756 --> 0:10:46.716 essay from Poete Hertz, is it? Norman? Can you remember 0:10:46.876 --> 0:10:47.436 the Norman. 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:50.796 R your Nego problem in mind? 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:54.876 Exactly? My Negro problem yours? Yeah? Exactly? 0:10:55.396 --> 0:10:59.036 From Yeah, Actually both Charles and I got it a 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:03.876 little wrong. It's My Negro Problem and Ours by Norman 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:08.476 pod Horitz, published in nineteen sixty three. It's a famous 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:12.316 in the you read it today, really unsettling essay where 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:15.996 pod Hortz confesses to quote the hatred I still feel 0:11:16.036 --> 0:11:19.756 for Negroes quote based on his experiences growing up as 0:11:19.756 --> 0:11:23.836 a working class Jewish kid in a tough neighborhood in Brooklyn. 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:28.236 And the way you know a Gibstanley and basically that perspective, 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:32.116 he is someone who's both understanding of where they come from, 0:11:32.516 --> 0:11:35.556 but angry that they still act as though the door 0:11:35.636 --> 0:11:39.076 is closed to them, you know. And and I can 0:11:39.076 --> 0:11:40.996 actually read it for you because I had it on 0:11:40.996 --> 0:11:43.356 the script I have. I can read the scene to 0:11:43.396 --> 0:11:45.356 you if you want it. I do want you to 0:11:46.236 --> 0:11:46.716 do that. 0:11:46.916 --> 0:11:49.036 Yeah, and you'll see. 0:11:49.036 --> 0:11:53.756 I mean the piece is you know, it's quite raw. Really, 0:11:53.836 --> 0:11:56.636 it's it's it's it's you know, it's in an area 0:11:56.756 --> 0:12:00.076 era prior to current sensibilities. I think I wrote it 0:12:00.076 --> 0:12:03.756 in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, And 0:12:03.916 --> 0:12:07.436 you kind of get a feeling for, uh, for the 0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:12.196 script in terms of it's you know, it's taking some risk. 0:12:12.276 --> 0:12:14.876 Let me put it that way. He's been held for 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:18.556 a few days, right, So the kids are in the room, 0:12:18.716 --> 0:12:22.836 Stanley's there, he's looking away from them. He let him 0:12:22.836 --> 0:12:29.516 take his blind fall off but he's face in the wall. Lucky, Stanley, 0:12:29.596 --> 0:12:32.396 let me ask you something. If you had a chance 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:34.836 to put me away for life, would you do it? 0:12:36.076 --> 0:12:41.356 Stanley considers, Stanley, you know where I live, you know 0:12:41.396 --> 0:12:44.116 where my father lives. I don't know who you are. 0:12:44.316 --> 0:12:47.596 I don't know where we are. I don't care. I 0:12:47.676 --> 0:12:51.076 just want this whole thing to be over. Lucky contemplates 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:55.076 the flat sincerity of Stan's answer. Then he laughs. Everyone looks. 0:12:55.196 --> 0:12:58.796 It's a strained laugh. That's right, Lucky says, Make the 0:12:58.916 --> 0:13:01.756 negro think he's got a chance. Open that door wide. 0:13:01.836 --> 0:13:05.156 Then boom. He slaps his hands together and stands the 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:10.116 ear stan flinches as Lucky stands and turns away from him. 0:13:10.276 --> 0:13:15.116 Stanley mutters, grow up, pardon I said, grow up? Yeah? 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:18.276 I heard you shoot me or let me go. Either way, 0:13:18.356 --> 0:13:22.876 Stop pretending that you're the victim here. Stop whining. There's 0:13:22.876 --> 0:13:26.796 no anger in his voice. The door's open, Lucky, Okay, 0:13:27.276 --> 0:13:30.876 not always, not everywhere, but after thirty years of people 0:13:30.956 --> 0:13:34.516 like me, it's pretty much fucking open. If you'd stop 0:13:34.556 --> 0:13:36.956 worrying about being a negro, maybe you could just walk 0:13:36.996 --> 0:13:39.596 through it. And if you don't, don't blame the rest 0:13:39.596 --> 0:13:42.596 of us. White man's keeping you down, white man's put 0:13:42.676 --> 0:13:45.276 crack in the hood, white man's giving you aids. Please 0:13:45.356 --> 0:13:50.276 grow the fuck up a stun silence, Lucky steps back 0:13:50.476 --> 0:13:53.076 over to him, looks down on the back of Stan's 0:13:53.116 --> 0:13:56.876 head with confused menace. Stanley's not done. The door's open, 0:13:56.916 --> 0:13:59.996 he says, deal with it. You're just too proud to 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:03.196 walk through or afraid. It's either that or you're just 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:07.556 playing lazy. Lucky grabs Wren's Tech nine. He yanks Stan 0:14:07.716 --> 0:14:10.636 backwards by the scarfing, rams the muzzle into his mouth. 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:14.396 Stand wretches mystic scream. Stand forces himself to keep his 0:14:14.436 --> 0:14:17.876 eyes shut. Stand, Lucky says, grabbing the stand by the 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:20.596 tie gun still in his mouth. Lucky drags him too 0:14:20.636 --> 0:14:25.996 the hallway. Sin and Wren push through. Stay here, Lucky yells. 0:14:26.596 --> 0:14:29.316 Lucky forces Stand down the hall hall. He thinks he's 0:14:29.316 --> 0:14:32.876 taking him to his to the bathroom, to his execution. Instead, 0:14:32.916 --> 0:14:35.876 he pushes Stand hard against the front door. There's your door, 0:14:35.956 --> 0:14:39.836 Lucky says. He pulls Stand back, opens it wide, gets 0:14:39.876 --> 0:14:44.516 behind him. Open your fucking eyes, he says. Stands pov 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:48.076 on the building landing, framed by the open front door. 0:14:48.636 --> 0:14:52.996 Dark and dangerous freedom. Lucky presses the gun to stands back. 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:59.036 Door's open, Lucky says, go on, bounce, walk through, walk through. 0:14:59.636 --> 0:15:03.876 He's angry. Now Stan doesn't move, can't move a decisive. 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:07.236 Beat, yeah, Lucky says, ain't that easy. 0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:10.876 Lucky slams the door or he turns to see Stan 0:15:11.276 --> 0:15:15.276 has his eyes still closed, as always refusing to see him. 0:15:15.556 --> 0:15:18.956 He gets right in the white man's face and whispers, 0:15:18.996 --> 0:15:23.836 negro Oh wow. 0:15:25.316 --> 0:15:32.396 Wait, so in the book that doesn't happen at all, 0:15:33.196 --> 0:15:34.036 So is it the problem? 0:15:34.116 --> 0:15:38.516 Right? The problem is, you know, to earn the right 0:15:38.636 --> 0:15:41.076 to tell this story, you have to sort of reframe 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:45.956 it and you have to take its underlying racist complexity 0:15:45.956 --> 0:15:47.196 and you have to make it the theme. You have 0:15:47.236 --> 0:15:49.476 to thematize that complexity, right, And that's what we do. 0:15:50.756 --> 0:16:08.476 When we get back, Charles talks about adaptation. We're back 0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:11.596 with Charles ran talking about his adaptation of the Birthday 0:16:11.596 --> 0:16:14.196 Party and how tricky it can be to adapt a 0:16:14.236 --> 0:16:15.956 true story for a screenplay. 0:16:17.556 --> 0:16:19.876 I'll give you another not related to me, but a 0:16:19.916 --> 0:16:23.156 very good example. I ran into Robbie Robinson, who is 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:27.236 Michael Keaton character in Spotlight, who's the editor on the 0:16:27.236 --> 0:16:27.916 Spotlight Team. 0:16:27.956 --> 0:16:33.476 So Spotlight is the movie about the Boston Globes investigation 0:16:34.516 --> 0:16:40.956 of Catholic priests suspected of pedophilia, among other things. And 0:16:41.116 --> 0:16:46.036 in that movie, Michael Keaton plays the editor of the 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:46.876 Boston Globe. 0:16:46.996 --> 0:16:47.316 Is that right? 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:48.156 Remembering correctly? 0:16:48.636 --> 0:16:50.756 And there is a scene so you run into the 0:16:50.796 --> 0:16:53.156 guy who was the real editor of the Boston Globe. 0:16:53.236 --> 0:16:56.156 Correct. Robbie says, you know, love the film, and there 0:16:56.196 --> 0:16:58.996 says one part I don't love, which is the part 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:02.316 where it turns out that the Spotlight team was given 0:17:02.356 --> 0:17:05.476 the information about what the Catholic priests were doing earlier, 0:17:05.916 --> 0:17:08.116 and I was the editor at the time a newspaper 0:17:08.196 --> 0:17:10.956 was given it and I nothing, And he says, the 0:17:10.996 --> 0:17:13.316 truth be told. When that story came in, it was 0:17:13.316 --> 0:17:15.556 one of forty stories that on the tip line for 0:17:15.996 --> 0:17:19.196 that week. It was the second week that I was 0:17:19.196 --> 0:17:21.236 on the job, and I wasn't even there that week. 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:25.316 I was actually had taken a vacation week in the transition. 0:17:26.116 --> 0:17:28.716 And so you know, I've always been a little uncomfortable 0:17:28.716 --> 0:17:31.916 with that scene because it's not really quite my culpability 0:17:31.956 --> 0:17:36.196 is really not quite what you know, what the film portrays. 0:17:36.636 --> 0:17:39.516 And of course I'm saying to Robbie, You're not winning 0:17:39.556 --> 0:17:42.236 an Oscar without that scene, right. That scene is what 0:17:42.316 --> 0:17:44.756 makes that movie right because in that moment we see 0:17:44.796 --> 0:17:47.836 the people in the Spotlight Team, like all of society, 0:17:47.956 --> 0:17:51.116 like us as viewers, are culpable on some level right 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:53.956 of ignoring this problem for many years. And that's what 0:17:54.036 --> 0:17:56.636 makes it interesting. And so this is the problem of 0:17:56.676 --> 0:17:59.036 this that you face, right. 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:04.796 In order to understand to earn the right to have 0:18:04.996 --> 0:18:09.316 to to make heroes out of the Spotlight Team, to 0:18:09.356 --> 0:18:12.036 be a moment of resistance in the beginning. 0:18:12.596 --> 0:18:14.396 Yeah, well, I mean it's not in the beginning. It's 0:18:14.516 --> 0:18:16.276 towards the end of the film. But they have to 0:18:16.316 --> 0:18:23.436 be not just people who uncover, right, some horrible truth 0:18:23.436 --> 0:18:26.396 about society. They have to face their own culpabilities in 0:18:26.436 --> 0:18:30.116 relationship to that right. And that's necessary. And so when 0:18:30.196 --> 0:18:32.676 taking a true story and building a film out of it, 0:18:33.076 --> 0:18:35.916 you have to find those moments. How can we take 0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:40.076 this thing and make it something's you know, more dramatic 0:18:40.516 --> 0:18:45.276 and more you know, politically compelling, let's say, than what 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:47.756 it and then what it is. And the first problem 0:18:47.836 --> 0:18:50.236 is easy to solve, the second problems hard. And in 0:18:50.276 --> 0:18:53.916 this case, the choice was In my case, the choice 0:18:54.076 --> 0:18:57.156 is to make Stanley Alpert different than the real Stanley Alpert. 0:18:57.156 --> 0:19:00.036 And the fact is right because the real Stanley Appert 0:19:00.076 --> 0:19:03.196 doesn't have those qualities. And obviously the person who hates 0:19:03.236 --> 0:19:06.716 this version more than anyone is Stanley Alpert. Right, He's 0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:09.796 always making jokes, he's always you know, he's he's always 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:12.516 referencing things, you know, he's he's he thinks of himself 0:19:12.516 --> 0:19:15.916 as a liberal, you know. And it allows me to, 0:19:16.196 --> 0:19:18.196 as in the section I read to you, it allows 0:19:18.236 --> 0:19:23.036 me to focus on that critique of African American culture 0:19:23.556 --> 0:19:25.756 that at the time was something that went a little 0:19:25.756 --> 0:19:28.196 bit unspoken, but was in a lot of people's hearts, 0:19:28.436 --> 0:19:31.716 right like in like in the and the Poet's essay. 0:19:32.596 --> 0:19:35.356 But you know, but but you know, was not was 0:19:35.396 --> 0:19:38.556 not never sort of portrayed, right, And of course that 0:19:38.596 --> 0:19:40.116 didn't that did not end very well. 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:41.956 We're gonna get to that in a second. But I 0:19:41.956 --> 0:19:44.476 wanted to this. This is a really, really crucial thing, 0:19:44.476 --> 0:19:46.276 and I want to kind of spend a little more 0:19:46.316 --> 0:19:48.796 time on it. This goes to something you have often 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:55.796 said to me about screenwriting, which is that the important 0:19:55.836 --> 0:20:01.316 conflict is not the external conflict, but the internal conflict, right. 0:20:01.356 --> 0:20:03.876 So it is not enough, in other words, for us 0:20:03.916 --> 0:20:08.636 to have a movie about a an obvious conflict between 0:20:08.716 --> 0:20:12.796 three black men and a white guy they're just kidnapped. 0:20:13.116 --> 0:20:17.916 There must be an internal conflict within the white guy's 0:20:17.916 --> 0:20:21.116 heart and the black guys, yeah parts right for us 0:20:21.156 --> 0:20:23.996 to kind of for the movie to come alive. Right, 0:20:24.116 --> 0:20:26.636 So what you're saying is that you had to construct 0:20:27.716 --> 0:20:29.956 an internal conflict for Stanley. 0:20:30.836 --> 0:20:33.156 Correct, And that means I have to move away from 0:20:33.196 --> 0:20:41.196 the victim narrative because victims inherently aren't generally speaking, people 0:20:41.236 --> 0:20:44.076 who are facing that kind of internal conflict. They're facing, 0:20:44.156 --> 0:20:47.876 generally speaking, an exterior conflict. And then will you stay 0:20:47.916 --> 0:20:51.356 up away from from that narrative. It becomes a problem 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:53.556 obviously for them for someone who sort of feels like 0:20:53.796 --> 0:20:56.396 we're a victim, right, But it also it also makes 0:20:56.596 --> 0:20:59.036 a better story, right, And this is part of the 0:20:59.276 --> 0:21:02.236 part of the problem with the moment you know in 0:21:02.276 --> 0:21:05.636 which we're recording this podcast, is that there is such 0:21:05.876 --> 0:21:12.956 a an attempt to to elevate victim stories to to 0:21:12.676 --> 0:21:17.596 to platform people without often the sort of constituent internal 0:21:17.636 --> 0:21:21.436 conflict that's going to make them fully human and fully engaging. Right. 0:21:21.916 --> 0:21:24.316 And that's why so many of those films fail to 0:21:24.956 --> 0:21:27.036 work or fail to make money, is because they don't 0:21:27.236 --> 0:21:30.636 they don't solicit our attention fully, right, because you could. 0:21:30.796 --> 0:21:33.396 You know, there's a reason Schindler's List is focused on 0:21:33.476 --> 0:21:36.636 Schindler and not the people in the camps, right, because 0:21:36.636 --> 0:21:40.916 Schindler has a strong internal conflict, right, which is much 0:21:40.916 --> 0:21:44.076 harder to do if you're you know, a victim of 0:21:44.116 --> 0:21:46.516 a holocaust. Right, It's just you know, it's much harder 0:21:46.516 --> 0:21:46.716 to do. 0:21:47.276 --> 0:21:50.716 And he's he is criticizes and he for the centrality 0:21:50.796 --> 0:21:54.316 that he that the movie, uh, for the fact that 0:21:54.436 --> 0:21:55.916 Schindler's at the center of the movie. 0:21:55.956 --> 0:21:59.276 And yes, and but by putting by putting Schindler, you 0:21:59.316 --> 0:22:03.236 can actually tell the other stories better better. Right. It's 0:22:03.276 --> 0:22:06.476 the interesting contradiction here, right, because it gives us a 0:22:06.556 --> 0:22:10.156 sort of an emotional perspective where we do not know 0:22:10.396 --> 0:22:12.596 is character going to choose Option A or Option B. 0:22:12.756 --> 0:22:13.996 That's what you kind of want to be, and all 0:22:14.396 --> 0:22:17.036 my films strive for that, right. So we have it 0:22:17.076 --> 0:22:19.436 here with these three kids, in the sense they're having 0:22:19.476 --> 0:22:21.756 to make the choice. How bad at gangsters do they 0:22:21.796 --> 0:22:23.596 want to be do they want to kill someone? Right? 0:22:23.676 --> 0:22:26.076 And we watch them in the film discuss that amongst 0:22:26.116 --> 0:22:28.836 themselves try and make an effort, and they're not up 0:22:28.876 --> 0:22:31.076 to it. Each try at some point to try and 0:22:31.116 --> 0:22:33.796 be the guy, and they just can't. These kids just 0:22:33.796 --> 0:22:37.756 can't do it right. Whereas you know, Stanley needed the 0:22:37.796 --> 0:22:40.436 same thing in the story and and for me, that 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:45.396 was him basically fighting his own desire because he's a 0:22:45.436 --> 0:22:47.396 talker and he's a man who wants to own truth. 0:22:47.396 --> 0:22:48.876 He said, you know, he gets up in front of court. 0:22:48.916 --> 0:22:52.076 He's a litigator, right, he's a federal attorney and speaks 0:22:52.156 --> 0:22:56.036 truth to people who do im moral things, and so 0:22:56.116 --> 0:22:58.596 he wants to be that guy. In the course of that, 0:22:58.676 --> 0:23:01.916 he really starts to realize as they express themselves in 0:23:01.956 --> 0:23:05.876 their background, as their humanity becomes more fully realized over 0:23:05.876 --> 0:23:08.676 the course of the film, he you know, he realizes 0:23:08.676 --> 0:23:11.636 that he does see them as in the scene that 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:12.436 I just read to you. 0:23:13.716 --> 0:23:16.996 So his wait, so that just to go a little 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:21.196