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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: It's Oscar Night twenty sixteen. The stage of the Adobe

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Speaker 2: Theater is set with what looks like a thousand candles.

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Speaker 2: Hollywood stars are lined up in the front rows, colorful dresses,

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Speaker 2: careful hairstyles, and endless cameras ready to pan from the

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Speaker 2: crowd to the presenters. Ah, here comes Russell Crowe and

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Speaker 2: Ryan Gosling. Ryan Gosling has a gold envelope.

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Speaker 1: In his hand. Good evening, folks. We're here to present

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Speaker 1: the award the Best Adapted Screenplay. And not to get

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Speaker 1: too technical, but that's the screenplay that was the best

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Speaker 1: at adapting to whatever harsh conditions and obstacles were thrown

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Speaker 1: in its way.

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Speaker 3: No, it's a screenplay adapted from another source, which is

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Speaker 3: a novel play, short story, or a TV show.

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Speaker 1: Agree to disagree?

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Speaker 2: Okay, well exactly because what are we interested in in

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Speaker 2: this series on development? Hell, the maladapted screenplay, the movie

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Speaker 2: idea that does not survive the harsh conditions and obstacles

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Speaker 2: thrown in its way. Anyway, back to the twenty sixteen Oscars,

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Speaker 2: the video montage for Best Adapted Screenplay lists Brooklyn, Carol Room,

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Speaker 2: The Martian and The Big Short Gosling opens the envelope

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Speaker 2: and the.

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Speaker 3: Oscar goes to.

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Speaker 1: Charles Randolph and Adam McKay the Big Short.

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Speaker 2: Allow me a little bit of name dropping. Charles Randolph,

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Speaker 2: winner of that Oscar, is my and my best friend.

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Speaker 2: I met him twenty five years ago when he just

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Speaker 2: started screenwriting, and since then he's done the life of

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Speaker 2: David Gaale, the Interpreter, Love Another, Drugs, Bombshell, and Big Short.

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Speaker 2: And when he got the Oscar for Big Short. I

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Speaker 2: was at an Oscar watching party in Brooklyn and I

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Speaker 2: got so emotional I had to hide in the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Mister Randolph, mister Goagwell, how are you, my friend?

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Speaker 2: I'm good, I'm good. Normally Charles would just walk over

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Speaker 2: to the studio. His office is down the hall, But

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Speaker 2: today he's calling me from London, where he and his

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Speaker 2: family are living for the school year.

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Speaker 1: How's it going now? I haven't seen him forever. I

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Speaker 1: miss you, Charles.

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Speaker 2: Le just do our thingy we can Okay, okay, okay.

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Speaker 2: Notice the interaction he says he misses me. I get

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Speaker 2: all flustered and try and get on with things. I

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Speaker 2: love Charles because I love Charles. There was no question

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Speaker 2: I was going to ask Charles for development hell story,

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Speaker 2: because I've talked with him at length about every screenplay

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Speaker 2: he's worked on for the last twenty five years, and

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Speaker 2: I knew instantly which one.

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Speaker 1: He would pick.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to episode four of Development Hell. So tell me,

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Speaker 2: tell me how that whole thing begins. Start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: So Paula Wagner and Tom Cruise by a book from

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Speaker 1: a guy named Stanning Albert called The Birthday Party, which

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Speaker 1: is a true story of him in January on January

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Speaker 1: twenty first, nineteen ninety eight, walking through the West Village

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Speaker 1: and he is approached by a young black man on

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Speaker 1: his right who he realized has a gun, and the

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Speaker 1: young man leads him to a vehicle that's I think

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Speaker 1: they're on thirteenth Street, maybe twelfth eleve them it's right

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Speaker 1: off Fifth Avenue. And there's another young black man waiting

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Speaker 1: who opens the door, and a third black young black

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Speaker 1: man in the car, and they basically kidnap him to

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Speaker 1: steal money out of his bank account. And what's interesting

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Speaker 1: is they're incredibly young. I think the oldest one is

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Speaker 1: maybe just turned eighteen. His name is Lucky. The others

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Speaker 1: are sixteen and I think fourteen, and they have no

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Speaker 1: clue what they're doing, right, They have no understanding because

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Speaker 1: they don't have bank accounts, right, so they have no

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Speaker 1: understanding that ATMs have a limit. They don't believe it.

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Speaker 1: At first. They see how much money he has in

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Speaker 1: his account. I think it's over one hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: So they anxiously want to get that money and it

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Speaker 1: drives them mad the system that they just can't get

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Speaker 1: that money out over the course of a night, right,

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Speaker 1: So they decide to hold him in Brooklyn with an

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Speaker 1: apartment with three young women. It's basically three young women

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Speaker 1: that sort of work for Lucky maybe it's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to tell as prostitutes. And he's held there for

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Speaker 1: firs you know, basically almost I think seventy two hours,

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Speaker 1: and a relationship develops with these kids, and at some

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Speaker 1: point they're offering him pot, they offer him a blowjob

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Speaker 1: once they find out that it's birthday. They're holding him

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Speaker 1: on his birthday. That's why it's called the birthday party.

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Speaker 1: It'll be his thirty ninth birthday. They want to get

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Speaker 1: they want to get the money outs. They sort of

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Speaker 1: had to plan to go into the bank with him.

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Speaker 1: Of course that's not going to work. He sort of

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Speaker 1: talks them out of that. To keep him honest. They

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Speaker 1: threaten his father and they sort of ask, you know,

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Speaker 1: ask for his father's address, and Stanley, knowing that his

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Speaker 1: father's business card is in his wallet, can't really lie.

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Speaker 1: They end up discussing killing him. So it's a test

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Speaker 1: they do at one point. So it's just a really

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Speaker 1: tense situation where he's you know, he's afraid for his life.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out they you know, there's no way

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Speaker 1: they can making making get the money out, and so

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Speaker 1: they decide to let him go. With their adolescence to

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Speaker 1: their adolescents, and it's also it's adolescence, yes, right, it's right.

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Speaker 2: It's three teenage boys.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely correct. I mean three and three teenage girls as well,

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Speaker 1: who are also quite young. I think their youngest one

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Speaker 1: is fourteen even, and they just they just do teenage stuff.

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Speaker 1: They have teenage perspectives, they have you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: yet they're very worldly, you know what I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, And so it's you know, there's there's young

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Speaker 1: one you know, one woman you know, talking about one

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Speaker 1: sexual practice she won't do because she's saving it for marriage.

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Speaker 1: You can imagine what that is. And it's just it's

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Speaker 1: just it's a heartbreaking that that's her, that's the thing

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Speaker 1: she's keeping, that's the thing that she has to offer, right,

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Speaker 1: and so it's just it's it's just yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's that youth, you know. But it's also moving.

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Speaker 1: It's also sort of I mean, the book's quite good

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Speaker 1: in that sense. It's like you get a sense of Wow,

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Speaker 1: these you know, there's a real community amongst these kids, right,

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Speaker 1: they are wholly relying on each other, you know, and

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Speaker 1: this is the only family they've got, and they're and

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're down for that family. They'll do what

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Speaker 1: it takes for their families. Yeah, it just is one

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Speaker 1: of those books where in reading it, it has a

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Speaker 1: wrongness to it and a an authenticity to it. It's

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Speaker 1: just very hard to find right as a story.

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Speaker 2: Why was Why do you think Tom Cruise's people were

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Speaker 2: attracted to this, to this book in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think Stanley's a remarkable guy. He you know,

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Speaker 1: what he does over the course of those three days

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Speaker 1: is he pays attention to these little clues which you

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Speaker 1: don't sort of see coming, uh, you see him noticing things,

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Speaker 1: and then when he's being interviewed by the police, he

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Speaker 1: just repeats them back and they are there. They manage

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Speaker 1: to find these six people very quickly, I mean extreme.

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Speaker 1: You know, he did a remarkable job. He remembered little

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Speaker 1: bits of numbers that he heard repeated, He remembered the

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Speaker 1: patterns on the floor, He identified the bus schedule going

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Speaker 1: outside the building. He could sort of identified the flight

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Speaker 1: patterns to JFK going over the building. He knew that

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Speaker 1: it was a relative, relatively big boulevard in Queens. He

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Speaker 1: knew kind of he could kind of guess by the

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Speaker 1: sequels how far the ocean was away. And so he

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Speaker 1: not only managed to save himself by building a relationship

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Speaker 1: with these young people, but he also managed to put

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Speaker 1: the police onto them very quickly.

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Speaker 2: So that version, there's a slender version of the story

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Speaker 2: which is just simply Sherla colmbs absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think I think that's in fairness

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Speaker 1: to stand. I think that's what he thought he was getting.

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Speaker 1: He thought he was going to get. You know, Tom

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Speaker 1: Cruise's going to play this guy who you know, heroically

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Speaker 1: saves himself, you know, and then bonds a little bit

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Speaker 1: with these with these young people, but but then you know,

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Speaker 1: it has to put them away. And I'm presented with

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Speaker 1: this thing, and it's just it's a fantastic story, but

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Speaker 1: it has the obvious problem. Right, It's a story of

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Speaker 1: three black, young black men holding a white guy, a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: a federal attorney, as a matter of fact, hostage, and

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Speaker 1: it's just it's hard to describe. It has an ethnocentrism

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Speaker 1: to it because it rooted in the perspective of the

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Speaker 1: white guy. It just feels a little untoward. It's just

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Speaker 1: one of the stories that we in Hollywood can't tell.

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Speaker 1: You simply cannot tell that story right. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if the film were being made, and you know, in

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Speaker 1: fifteen years earlier than nineteen ninety eight, he could have

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Speaker 1: gotten away with that. But by that period it was

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Speaker 1: already too late to tell this story without fully honoring

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Speaker 1: the humanity of the perpetrators. And so the thinking is,

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Speaker 1: how can we take this and make it work? And

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Speaker 1: what I end up doing is I turn up everyone's

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Speaker 1: racism for lack of better phrase, right, I make Stanley

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Speaker 1: a guy who thinks he's a liberal, but he's trapped

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Speaker 1: by his own categories in the world. I make these kids,

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Speaker 1: these kids who have very few opportunities and are trapped

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Speaker 1: in their own kind of perspective of the other. So

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Speaker 1: there these are a group of people who, even though

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Speaker 1: Stanley's being held in this apartment, blindfolded and basically in

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Speaker 1: a big room with six kids, six young people, he

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Speaker 1: can't see them really literally and metaphorically, and they can't

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Speaker 1: see him, right. Uh. And then what happens is, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the script, you know, he starts to rebel against

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Speaker 1: this situation. He gets he gets angry, and they start

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Speaker 1: to work through their own prejudices, prejudices against one another,

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Speaker 1: and it sort of culminates in a in a in

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Speaker 1: a scene where basically he unloads on them and he

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Speaker 1: gives voice. I think a little bit of that old

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Speaker 1: essay from Poete Hertz, is it? Norman? Can you remember

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Speaker 1: the Norman.

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Speaker 2: R your Nego problem in mind?

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Speaker 1: Exactly? My Negro problem yours? Yeah? Exactly?

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Speaker 2: From Yeah, Actually both Charles and I got it a

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Speaker 2: little wrong. It's My Negro Problem and Ours by Norman

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Speaker 2: pod Horitz, published in nineteen sixty three. It's a famous

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Speaker 2: in the you read it today, really unsettling essay where

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Speaker 2: pod Hortz confesses to quote the hatred I still feel

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Speaker 2: for Negroes quote based on his experiences growing up as

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Speaker 2: a working class Jewish kid in a tough neighborhood in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: And the way you know a Gibstanley and basically that perspective,

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Speaker 1: he is someone who's both understanding of where they come from,

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Speaker 1: but angry that they still act as though the door

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Speaker 1: is closed to them, you know. And and I can

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Speaker 1: actually read it for you because I had it on

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Speaker 1: the script I have. I can read the scene to

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Speaker 1: you if you want it. I do want you to

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you'll see.

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Speaker 1: I mean the piece is you know, it's quite raw. Really,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's you know, it's in an area

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Speaker 1: era prior to current sensibilities. I think I wrote it

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, And

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Speaker 1: you kind of get a feeling for, uh, for the

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Speaker 1: script in terms of it's you know, it's taking some risk.

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Speaker 1: Let me put it that way. He's been held for

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Speaker 1: a few days, right, So the kids are in the room,

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Speaker 1: Stanley's there, he's looking away from them. He let him

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Speaker 1: take his blind fall off but he's face in the wall. Lucky, Stanley,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you something. If you had a chance

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Speaker 1: to put me away for life, would you do it?

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Speaker 1: Stanley considers, Stanley, you know where I live, you know

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Speaker 1: where my father lives. I don't know who you are.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where we are. I don't care. I

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Speaker 1: just want this whole thing to be over. Lucky contemplates

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Speaker 1: the flat sincerity of Stan's answer. Then he laughs. Everyone looks.

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Speaker 1: It's a strained laugh. That's right, Lucky says, Make the

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Speaker 1: negro think he's got a chance. Open that door wide.

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Speaker 1: Then boom. He slaps his hands together and stands the

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Speaker 1: ear stan flinches as Lucky stands and turns away from him.

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Speaker 1: Stanley mutters, grow up, pardon I said, grow up? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I heard you shoot me or let me go. Either way,

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Speaker 1: Stop pretending that you're the victim here. Stop whining. There's

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Speaker 1: no anger in his voice. The door's open, Lucky, Okay,

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Speaker 1: not always, not everywhere, but after thirty years of people

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Speaker 1: like me, it's pretty much fucking open. If you'd stop

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Speaker 1: worrying about being a negro, maybe you could just walk

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Speaker 1: through it. And if you don't, don't blame the rest

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Speaker 1: of us. White man's keeping you down, white man's put

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Speaker 1: crack in the hood, white man's giving you aids. Please

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Speaker 1: grow the fuck up a stun silence, Lucky steps back

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Speaker 1: over to him, looks down on the back of Stan's

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Speaker 1: head with confused menace. Stanley's not done. The door's open,

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Speaker 1: he says, deal with it. You're just too proud to

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Speaker 1: walk through or afraid. It's either that or you're just

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Speaker 1: playing lazy. Lucky grabs Wren's Tech nine. He yanks Stan

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Speaker 1: backwards by the scarfing, rams the muzzle into his mouth.

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Speaker 1: Stand wretches mystic scream. Stand forces himself to keep his

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Speaker 1: eyes shut. Stand, Lucky says, grabbing the stand by the

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Speaker 1: tie gun still in his mouth. Lucky drags him too

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Speaker 1: the hallway. Sin and Wren push through. Stay here, Lucky yells.

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Speaker 1: Lucky forces Stand down the hall hall. He thinks he's

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Speaker 1: taking him to his to the bathroom, to his execution. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he pushes Stand hard against the front door. There's your door,

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Speaker 1: Lucky says. He pulls Stand back, opens it wide, gets

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Speaker 1: behind him. Open your fucking eyes, he says. Stands pov

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Speaker 1: on the building landing, framed by the open front door.

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Speaker 1: Dark and dangerous freedom. Lucky presses the gun to stands back.

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Speaker 1: Door's open, Lucky says, go on, bounce, walk through, walk through.

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Speaker 1: He's angry. Now Stan doesn't move, can't move a decisive.

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Speaker 3: Beat, yeah, Lucky says, ain't that easy.

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Speaker 1: Lucky slams the door or he turns to see Stan

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Speaker 1: has his eyes still closed, as always refusing to see him.

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Speaker 1: He gets right in the white man's face and whispers,

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Speaker 1: negro Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: Wait, so in the book that doesn't happen at all,

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Speaker 3: So is it the problem?

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Speaker 1: Right? The problem is, you know, to earn the right

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Speaker 1: to tell this story, you have to sort of reframe

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Speaker 1: it and you have to take its underlying racist complexity

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Speaker 1: and you have to make it the theme. You have

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Speaker 1: to thematize that complexity, right, And that's what we do.

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Speaker 2: When we get back, Charles talks about adaptation. We're back

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Speaker 2: with Charles ran talking about his adaptation of the Birthday

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Speaker 2: Party and how tricky it can be to adapt a

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Speaker 2: true story for a screenplay.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you another not related to me, but a

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Speaker 1: very good example. I ran into Robbie Robinson, who is

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Speaker 1: Michael Keaton character in Spotlight, who's the editor on the

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Speaker 1: Spotlight Team.

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Speaker 2: So Spotlight is the movie about the Boston Globes investigation

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Speaker 2: of Catholic priests suspected of pedophilia, among other things. And

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Speaker 2: in that movie, Michael Keaton plays the editor of the

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Speaker 2: Boston Globe.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Remembering correctly?

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Speaker 2: And there is a scene so you run into the

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Speaker 2: guy who was the real editor of the Boston Globe.

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Speaker 1: Correct. Robbie says, you know, love the film, and there

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Speaker 1: says one part I don't love, which is the part

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Speaker 1: where it turns out that the Spotlight team was given

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Speaker 1: the information about what the Catholic priests were doing earlier,

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Speaker 1: and I was the editor at the time a newspaper

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Speaker 1: was given it and I nothing, And he says, the

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Speaker 1: truth be told. When that story came in, it was

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Speaker 1: one of forty stories that on the tip line for

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Speaker 1: that week. It was the second week that I was

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Speaker 1: on the job, and I wasn't even there that week.

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Speaker 1: I was actually had taken a vacation week in the transition.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, I've always been a little uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: with that scene because it's not really quite my culpability

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Speaker 1: is really not quite what you know, what the film portrays.

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Speaker 1: And of course I'm saying to Robbie, You're not winning

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Speaker 1: an Oscar without that scene, right. That scene is what

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Speaker 1: makes that movie right because in that moment we see

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Speaker 1: the people in the Spotlight Team, like all of society,

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Speaker 1: like us as viewers, are culpable on some level right

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Speaker 1: of ignoring this problem for many years. And that's what

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Speaker 1: makes it interesting. And so this is the problem of

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Speaker 1: this that you face, right.

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Speaker 2: In order to understand to earn the right to have

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Speaker 2: to to make heroes out of the Spotlight Team, to

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Speaker 2: be a moment of resistance in the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean it's not in the beginning. It's

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Speaker 1: towards the end of the film. But they have to

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Speaker 1: be not just people who uncover, right, some horrible truth

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Speaker 1: about society. They have to face their own culpabilities in

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Speaker 1: relationship to that right. And that's necessary. And so when

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Speaker 1: taking a true story and building a film out of it,

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Speaker 1: you have to find those moments. How can we take

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Speaker 1: this thing and make it something's you know, more dramatic

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Speaker 1: and more you know, politically compelling, let's say, than what

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Speaker 1: it and then what it is. And the first problem

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Speaker 1: is easy to solve, the second problems hard. And in

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Speaker 1: this case, the choice was In my case, the choice

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Speaker 1: is to make Stanley Alpert different than the real Stanley Alpert.

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Speaker 1: And the fact is right because the real Stanley Appert

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Speaker 1: doesn't have those qualities. And obviously the person who hates

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Speaker 1: this version more than anyone is Stanley Alpert. Right, He's

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Speaker 1: always making jokes, he's always you know, he's he's always

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Speaker 1: referencing things, you know, he's he's he thinks of himself

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Speaker 1: as a liberal, you know. And it allows me to,

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Speaker 1: as in the section I read to you, it allows

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Speaker 1: me to focus on that critique of African American culture

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Speaker 1: that at the time was something that went a little

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Speaker 1: bit unspoken, but was in a lot of people's hearts,

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Speaker 1: right like in like in the and the Poet's essay.

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Speaker 1: But you know, but but you know, was not was

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Speaker 1: not never sort of portrayed, right, And of course that

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Speaker 1: didn't that did not end very well.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna get to that in a second. But I

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Speaker 2: wanted to this. This is a really, really crucial thing,

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Speaker 2: and I want to kind of spend a little more

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Speaker 2: time on it. This goes to something you have often

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Speaker 2: said to me about screenwriting, which is that the important

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Speaker 2: conflict is not the external conflict, but the internal conflict, right.

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Speaker 2: So it is not enough, in other words, for us

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Speaker 2: to have a movie about a an obvious conflict between

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Speaker 2: three black men and a white guy they're just kidnapped.

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Speaker 2: There must be an internal conflict within the white guy's

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Speaker 2: heart and the black guys, yeah parts right for us

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Speaker 2: to kind of for the movie to come alive. Right,

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Speaker 2: So what you're saying is that you had to construct

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Speaker 2: an internal conflict for Stanley.

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Speaker 1: Correct, And that means I have to move away from

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Speaker 1: the victim narrative because victims inherently aren't generally speaking, people

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Speaker 1: who are facing that kind of internal conflict. They're facing,

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Speaker 1: generally speaking, an exterior conflict. And then will you stay

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Speaker 1: up away from from that narrative. It becomes a problem

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Speaker 1: obviously for them for someone who sort of feels like

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Speaker 1: we're a victim, right, But it also it also makes

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Speaker 1: a better story, right, And this is part of the

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Speaker 1: part of the problem with the moment you know in

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Speaker 1: which we're recording this podcast, is that there is such

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Speaker 1: a an attempt to to elevate victim stories to to

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Speaker 1: to platform people without often the sort of constituent internal

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Speaker 1: conflict that's going to make them fully human and fully engaging. Right.

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Speaker 1: And that's why so many of those films fail to

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Speaker 1: work or fail to make money, is because they don't

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Speaker 1: they don't solicit our attention fully, right, because you could.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a reason Schindler's List is focused on

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Speaker 1: Schindler and not the people in the camps, right, because

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Speaker 1: Schindler has a strong internal conflict, right, which is much

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Speaker 1: harder to do if you're you know, a victim of

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Speaker 1: a holocaust. Right, It's just you know, it's much harder

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: And he's he is criticizes and he for the centrality

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Speaker 2: that he that the movie, uh, for the fact that

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Speaker 2: Schindler's at the center of the movie.

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Speaker 1: And yes, and but by putting by putting Schindler, you

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Speaker 1: can actually tell the other stories better better. Right. It's

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Speaker 1: the interesting contradiction here, right, because it gives us a

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Speaker 1: sort of an emotional perspective where we do not know

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Speaker 1: is character going to choose Option A or Option B.

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Speaker 1: That's what you kind of want to be, and all

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Speaker 1: my films strive for that, right. So we have it

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Speaker 1: here with these three kids, in the sense they're having

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Speaker 1: to make the choice. How bad at gangsters do they

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Speaker 1: want to be do they want to kill someone? Right?

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Speaker 1: And we watch them in the film discuss that amongst

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Speaker 1: themselves try and make an effort, and they're not up

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Speaker 1: to it. Each try at some point to try and

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Speaker 1: be the guy, and they just can't. These kids just

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Speaker 1: can't do it right. Whereas you know, Stanley needed the

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Speaker 1: same thing in the story and and for me, that

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Speaker 1: was him basically fighting his own desire because he's a

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Speaker 1: talker and he's a man who wants to own truth.

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Speaker 1: He said, you know, he gets up in front of court.

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Speaker 1: He's a litigator, right, he's a federal attorney and speaks

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Speaker 1: truth to people who do im moral things, and so

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Speaker 1: he wants to be that guy. In the course of that,

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Speaker 1: he really starts to realize as they express themselves in

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Speaker 1: their background, as their humanity becomes more fully realized over

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Speaker 1: the course of the film, he you know, he realizes

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Speaker 1: that he does see them as in the scene that

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Speaker 1: I just read to you.

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Speaker 2: So his wait, so that just to go a little

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Speaker 2: bit more over his conflict. He believes himself to be

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Speaker 2: a liberal who can see the broader context in which

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Speaker 2: disadvantaged people act. And yet when he is in this situation.

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Speaker 2: He struggles to maintain.

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Speaker 1: That absolutely yeah, yeah, well, and bookends with the fact

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Speaker 1: that he has to go at the end of the

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Speaker 1: film to a you know, to a lineup and and

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Speaker 1: basically pick the young man out of the line which

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Speaker 1: was essentially you know, assuring that justice will be served.

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Speaker 1: So he's met making this choice, right, He's come to

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Speaker 1: see their humanity. He knows that the system is going

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Speaker 1: to be incredibly harsh on the man. It was they

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Speaker 1: all got anywhere from I think fifteen to twenty years

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Speaker 1: and essentially sort of ruining their lives. And yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: you know, he still does it, but he doesn't like

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Speaker 1: it in the film, so.

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Speaker 2: He described that describe that an so he in the

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Speaker 2: movie version, are you now back? So does the ending

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Speaker 2: go the way the ending when in real life?

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Speaker 1: Yes and no. I think one thing that that it

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Speaker 1: does is it makes him more empathetic to their plight. Right.

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Speaker 1: I won't say that the film sees their their their

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Speaker 1: backgrounds as exculpatory, but it does. The film does suggest

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Speaker 1: that they deserve greater understanding than the system will give

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Speaker 1: them because of the back the harsh backgrounds they come from.

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Speaker 1: All of them I think are potentially, you know, fatherless

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Speaker 1: and have problematic backgrounds. We hear a little bit about that,

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Speaker 1: and of course the film in the real story, No,

429
00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:03,476
Speaker 1: and the real story, you know, Stan Albert, a victim

430
00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:07,036
Speaker 1: of crime, wanted to see justice served, and justice was served.

431
00:25:07,116 --> 00:25:09,956
Speaker 1: And I don't think he felt particularly ambivalent about it.

432
00:25:10,036 --> 00:25:12,316
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, in my discussions with him

433
00:25:12,356 --> 00:25:15,716
Speaker 1: after he read the script, you know, it's it seemed

434
00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:19,756
Speaker 1: to offend him that he owed them, he owed them

435
00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:25,356
Speaker 1: more than, you know, more than what was given to

436
00:25:25,436 --> 00:25:27,676
Speaker 1: them in terms of how he portrayed them in the book,

437
00:25:29,036 --> 00:25:31,076
Speaker 1: you know. And he may not be wrong, you know,

438
00:25:31,196 --> 00:25:34,316
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm using his story for my

439
00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:35,076
Speaker 1: own purposes.

440
00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:38,636
Speaker 2: Right when we get back, Charles and I talk about

441
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:47,676
Speaker 2: who gets to tell whose stories. So in the movie version,

442
00:25:48,396 --> 00:25:52,636
Speaker 2: he gets they let him go. The young men are arrested,

443
00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:55,916
Speaker 2: and does is the climax of the movie him picking

444
00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:56,436
Speaker 2: him out.

445
00:25:56,276 --> 00:26:00,436
Speaker 1: Of the No, it's them being sentenced in there and

446
00:26:00,516 --> 00:26:02,716
Speaker 1: they remember they haven't been able to look at each other.

447
00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:04,396
Speaker 1: Really the course of the film. It's sort of an

448
00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:07,396
Speaker 1: interesting thing, is you know, he's got the scarf which

449
00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:09,476
Speaker 1: they've blindfolded with, so s for covers most of his

450
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:12,276
Speaker 1: face and then they turn him away. They never really

451
00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 1: get a chance to look at each other. And at

452
00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:18,916
Speaker 1: the end of the film, uh, he basically in the

453
00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:21,116
Speaker 1: in the courtroom has a chance to walk eyes with

454
00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:25,236
Speaker 1: It's lucky, the sort of the their leader and the

455
00:26:25,316 --> 00:26:27,636
Speaker 1: first time these two people can actually see each other.

456
00:26:28,956 --> 00:26:30,956
Speaker 1: But he sort of comes to a place where, you know,

457
00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:36,516
Speaker 1: he can see the other violently, and that's that's the

458
00:26:36,556 --> 00:26:37,876
Speaker 1: best we can hope for for that stuff.

459
00:26:37,916 --> 00:26:42,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a beautiful metaphors they're running throughout this that

460
00:26:42,676 --> 00:26:47,316
Speaker 2: we've two people who literally and figuratively cannot see each other.

461
00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:51,476
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then by the end the occupy, Yeah, occupy

462
00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:52,076
Speaker 1: the same space.

463
00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:55,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, even as he occupied the same space. By the

464
00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:58,196
Speaker 2: end of the movie, even as these young men are

465
00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,836
Speaker 2: being sent off to jail, we have we the audience

466
00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:05,396
Speaker 2: have some feeling that they're seeing each other for the

467
00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:09,076
Speaker 2: first time, right, which is necessary because, as you said,

468
00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:13,236
Speaker 2: if it's simply slam bam, if it's a law and

469
00:27:13,396 --> 00:27:16,956
Speaker 2: order episode, it's not interesting.

470
00:27:16,756 --> 00:27:19,236
Speaker 1: And you can't do it right. I mean, there is

471
00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:24,036
Speaker 1: a history of obviously you know, the victim in TV

472
00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:26,636
Speaker 1: shows and movies, you know, being white and the perpetrator

473
00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:28,956
Speaker 1: being black. But it's something that we've been uncomfortable with

474
00:27:29,756 --> 00:27:32,836
Speaker 1: for a long time now, right And certainly the idea

475
00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:36,916
Speaker 1: of three black three black men rang on a white

476
00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:39,076
Speaker 1: guys has always been I mean not always, but it

477
00:27:39,076 --> 00:27:41,236
Speaker 1: has been complicated in recent years, in the last twenty

478
00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:43,916
Speaker 1: thirty years, it has been a complicated idea, right And

479
00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:47,876
Speaker 1: and really it's why this thing was sort of in

480
00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:50,916
Speaker 1: development hell, because nobody ever got comfortable with it.

481
00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:55,716
Speaker 2: So you finished the script and tell me what happens next?

482
00:27:57,156 --> 00:28:00,756
Speaker 1: Who do you take it to? First? It goes immediately

483
00:28:00,796 --> 00:28:03,156
Speaker 1: to a few directors. In fact, one director that first

484
00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:05,956
Speaker 1: weekend calls me on a Sunday night, which never happens

485
00:28:06,316 --> 00:28:10,636
Speaker 1: based on the weekend read, incredibly excited about it and saying,

486
00:28:10,716 --> 00:28:15,116
Speaker 1: I'm all in, I love this, this is fantastic. Come Monday,

487
00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,316
Speaker 1: he goes in the office. He has two interns who

488
00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:21,956
Speaker 1: are graduate students from NYU who are both black, who say, now,

489
00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,116
Speaker 1: you can't do this, this is not this is not

490
00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:27,916
Speaker 1: going to work, you know, and you know he backs

491
00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:30,196
Speaker 1: out immediately. So he backs out twenty four hours later.

492
00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:32,076
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of directors who came on

493
00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:35,476
Speaker 1: board Unfortunately, there were no black directors available. I think,

494
00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:39,436
Speaker 1: you know, I think we a couple were approached. It

495
00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:41,436
Speaker 1: was a slight It was two thousand and eight, so

496
00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:43,636
Speaker 1: there weren't quite as many as we have now obviously,

497
00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:46,636
Speaker 1: but no one, No one was around. I think what

498
00:28:46,756 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 1: we tried to do is we tried to tone it down.

499
00:28:49,076 --> 00:28:50,836
Speaker 1: We tried to sort of tone down, you know. I

500
00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:53,756
Speaker 1: remember sort of sitting in the office with going through

501
00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:55,676
Speaker 1: and counting all the inwards and seeing how many we

502
00:28:55,716 --> 00:28:57,196
Speaker 1: could take out, just to sort of make it a

503
00:28:57,236 --> 00:29:00,036
Speaker 1: little bit more palatable to be because it's raw, it's

504
00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:04,836
Speaker 1: very raw. Then what happens, well, what happens is a

505
00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,516
Speaker 1: couple directors go away and nobody really works until the

506
00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:09,836
Speaker 1: great Milosh Foreman.

507
00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:13,436
Speaker 2: Milosh Foreman, famous for directing One Flew over the Cuckoo's

508
00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:16,276
Speaker 2: Nest in nineteen seventy five. In two thousand and seven,

509
00:29:16,756 --> 00:29:18,716
Speaker 2: he's well into his seventies, and.

510
00:29:20,476 --> 00:29:25,476
Speaker 1: Milosh has a remarkable ability to do dramedy and comedy

511
00:29:25,476 --> 00:29:30,156
Speaker 1: and drama at the same time. And Milosh says to me,

512
00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:32,996
Speaker 1: when we first sort of start unpacking the history of

513
00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:36,156
Speaker 1: the project, he says, stop, stop. It doesn't matter if

514
00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:40,636
Speaker 1: the characters are real. If the actors find in them

515
00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:44,156
Speaker 1: real humanity, and the actors bring their own truth to it,

516
00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:47,316
Speaker 1: it will work right, and all that other stuff will

517
00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:49,756
Speaker 1: go away. And if it's problematic, we get rid of

518
00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:51,716
Speaker 1: it in the editing room. Don't we have the time?

519
00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:54,036
Speaker 1: We called it political correctness, right, so don't worry about

520
00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:56,516
Speaker 1: the politically well, it's polity correct not if it's real

521
00:29:56,596 --> 00:29:59,756
Speaker 1: and if it's human, and we will be totally fine.

522
00:30:00,316 --> 00:30:02,396
Speaker 1: And he had another thing he would talk about, which

523
00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 1: was that, you know, anytime you nestle up against censorship,

524
00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:11,316
Speaker 1: you know you're in the zone when you're making something interesting.

525
00:30:11,396 --> 00:30:13,756
Speaker 1: In fact, he talked about he would talk about how

526
00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:16,476
Speaker 1: and he's from Czechoslovakia, how you know the great thing

527
00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:19,996
Speaker 1: about having our actual sensor is they tell you exactly

528
00:30:20,036 --> 00:30:22,156
Speaker 1: where the line is, so everybody knows exactly where the

529
00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:24,396
Speaker 1: line is, and so that you can you can you

530
00:30:24,476 --> 00:30:28,396
Speaker 1: can approach the line with great subtlety, right because because

531
00:30:28,436 --> 00:30:30,356
Speaker 1: everyone knows where it is. And that's the thing that

532
00:30:30,436 --> 00:30:33,116
Speaker 1: American culture does not have, is that sort of that

533
00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:36,716
Speaker 1: sort of you know, clear sense, no line until we,

534
00:30:36,796 --> 00:30:38,876
Speaker 1: of course do it a line. In recent years, we've

535
00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:40,756
Speaker 1: kind of created some lines for ourselves. But yes, there's

536
00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:43,636
Speaker 1: no line, right, And so he said, and so he said,

537
00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:46,316
Speaker 1: it's good that we make people uncomfortable. It's good that

538
00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:49,196
Speaker 1: it's raw. It's good that some of it's incredibly provocative,

539
00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:52,956
Speaker 1: because that's what's going to make it real. And and

540
00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,516
Speaker 1: and he fully owned it. And you know, I get

541
00:30:57,556 --> 00:30:59,956
Speaker 1: I get emotional thinking about it, but he he was

542
00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:05,076
Speaker 1: just so open to what the thing was, right. And

543
00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:08,356
Speaker 1: then you know, I get a series of notes from him,

544
00:31:08,476 --> 00:31:10,996
Speaker 1: and I realized their notes on a scene he's already done.

545
00:31:11,836 --> 00:31:14,476
Speaker 1: And I get another series and I realized their notes

546
00:31:14,516 --> 00:31:18,276
Speaker 1: on something entirely different. And I call his wife and

547
00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:20,236
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, you know, he's not been feeling well,

548
00:31:20,396 --> 00:31:22,876
Speaker 1: give me a couple of weeks. And then he never

549
00:31:22,956 --> 00:31:24,716
Speaker 1: came back to it. At that point, I think she

550
00:31:24,836 --> 00:31:28,396
Speaker 1: had realized that he just wasn't up to it. You know,

551
00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:33,636
Speaker 1: he was quite old. Yeah, And and so you know,

552
00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:36,316
Speaker 1: I finally find the guy that I think can bring

553
00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:38,676
Speaker 1: it home and and he's just not. He's just can't.

554
00:31:38,756 --> 00:31:40,396
Speaker 1: He's just not gonna be able to do it. You know,

555
00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:42,116
Speaker 1: I think she worried that he wouldn't even have the

556
00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:44,436
Speaker 1: stamina to do it right, you know, because directing takes

557
00:31:44,436 --> 00:31:46,596
Speaker 1: two years, takes two and a half years. So if

558
00:31:46,596 --> 00:31:48,196
Speaker 1: you see problems at the beginning, you know, you got

559
00:31:48,316 --> 00:31:49,916
Speaker 1: to remember, what where's this person going to be in

560
00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:50,356
Speaker 1: two years?

561
00:31:50,596 --> 00:31:51,356
Speaker 2: When does he die?

562
00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:54,276
Speaker 1: How he dies about three years later? You know, And

563
00:31:54,396 --> 00:31:55,916
Speaker 1: I do not know what shape he was in in

564
00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:57,716
Speaker 1: the end. He may have been fully cognizant all the

565
00:31:57,756 --> 00:31:59,876
Speaker 1: way to the end, but but you know, he died

566
00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:00,356
Speaker 1: a bit later.

567
00:32:00,796 --> 00:32:04,316
Speaker 2: But it was Can we just pause on meals about this?

568
00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:09,396
Speaker 2: So Milish is a person who comes out from under

569
00:32:09,436 --> 00:32:14,956
Speaker 2: the iron curtain. He grows up in toutalitarianism. You know,

570
00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:18,516
Speaker 2: he he has a kind of I mean, if you're

571
00:32:18,596 --> 00:32:21,076
Speaker 2: looking so what this project, what you're saying is what

572
00:32:21,156 --> 00:32:25,796
Speaker 2: this project needed was an authenticity in its interpretation, you

573
00:32:25,836 --> 00:32:31,356
Speaker 2: would something, it needed fearlessness, It needed fear and one

574
00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:34,756
Speaker 2: way to do this is to find a black director

575
00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:37,116
Speaker 2: with you know, That's what That's the solution we would

576
00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:43,196
Speaker 2: do today. Correct, Correct, for whatever reason, there wasn't someone avel.

577
00:32:43,436 --> 00:32:46,116
Speaker 2: But the other version is to find someone like Milosh.

578
00:32:46,836 --> 00:32:50,476
Speaker 2: He started his career thumbing his nose at one of

579
00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:57,156
Speaker 2: the history's most brutal authoritarian totalitarian regimes. So it's like

580
00:32:58,036 --> 00:32:59,196
Speaker 2: he's like, if anyone's going.

581
00:32:59,116 --> 00:33:04,076
Speaker 1: To say f it, and he did, and he and

582
00:33:04,156 --> 00:33:05,916
Speaker 1: it was and it was it was just I can't

583
00:33:05,956 --> 00:33:08,396
Speaker 1: tell you how liberating it was. It was just shockingly

584
00:33:08,556 --> 00:33:11,316
Speaker 1: liberating after I think it had been three maybe four

585
00:33:11,436 --> 00:33:13,076
Speaker 1: years at that point, you know, and he's like, no,

586
00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:15,916
Speaker 1: let's we will get this. Do not worry. This is

587
00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:17,436
Speaker 1: not our this will not be our problem.

588
00:33:17,676 --> 00:33:18,356
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

589
00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:19,116
Speaker 1: Uh.

590
00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:22,956
Speaker 2: And you think he's you think he's right, his interpretation

591
00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:23,396
Speaker 2: is right.

592
00:33:23,436 --> 00:33:24,796
Speaker 1: I do think he's right. Yeah, I do think. I

593
00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:27,756
Speaker 1: think what happens is if you hire actors who you

594
00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:31,116
Speaker 1: know who can bring something to it, if you listen

595
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:33,396
Speaker 1: to other people from other cultures, if you gets a

596
00:33:33,436 --> 00:33:36,836
Speaker 1: communal effort a film, right and and if you do that,

597
00:33:37,116 --> 00:33:41,396
Speaker 1: you will find authenticity, you know, if you're looking for it.

598
00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:44,196
Speaker 2: Because I know you well, if you permit me a

599
00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:49,236
Speaker 2: little bit of of of psychoanalyzing for those who don't

600
00:33:49,276 --> 00:33:52,676
Speaker 2: know you. You are you're the son of an evangelical

601
00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:57,476
Speaker 2: preacher from Texas. You grew up all over the world

602
00:33:57,476 --> 00:34:02,396
Speaker 2: because your dad was smuggling bibles into Eastern Europe. You're

603
00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:06,356
Speaker 2: you're you're so out in certain ways, you're such an

604
00:34:06,436 --> 00:34:13,436
Speaker 2: outsider to Hollywood. It's it's phenomenal, and the outsider has

605
00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:18,236
Speaker 2: you know, in some ways, you you and Milo c

606
00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:22,596
Speaker 2: I I on this because you're because you're both outsiders, right, right, right.

607
00:34:22,836 --> 00:34:25,596
Speaker 2: It's one thing that this was written by the standard

608
00:34:25,716 --> 00:34:30,996
Speaker 2: Hollywood screenwriter, who is the privileged white guy who went

609
00:34:31,076 --> 00:34:34,716
Speaker 2: to Harvard and then you know, did a graduate degree

610
00:34:34,756 --> 00:34:37,716
Speaker 2: at NYU and then interned for a famous director and

611
00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:40,876
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. Right, that's not you. Though there is

612
00:34:40,956 --> 00:34:46,916
Speaker 2: a privilege in writing something like this, there is great

613
00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:51,676
Speaker 2: advantage and privilege in not having a dog in the fight,

614
00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:57,676
Speaker 2: in not being part of the worlds that you're portraying.

615
00:34:57,756 --> 00:35:01,516
Speaker 2: So we understand the privilege that comes from belonging. The

616
00:35:01,636 --> 00:35:04,076
Speaker 2: person who belongs can tell a certain kind of story

617
00:35:04,276 --> 00:35:10,956
Speaker 2: with a degree of confidence and accuracy and verve that

618
00:35:11,436 --> 00:35:14,516
Speaker 2: the outsider can't. But then, but we're forgetting that there's

619
00:35:14,556 --> 00:35:17,196
Speaker 2: a there is a separate set of advantages that come

620
00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:20,516
Speaker 2: from being someone who doesn't belong to either of these worlds.

621
00:35:20,716 --> 00:35:23,356
Speaker 2: And my point about you was that in this context,

622
00:35:24,036 --> 00:35:27,956
Speaker 2: you're not part of Stanley's world, right, That's that you're

623
00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:30,756
Speaker 2: Charles from Texas. You're not part of his world, and

624
00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:33,396
Speaker 2: you're not part of the Lucky's world. You're you're off

625
00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:36,196
Speaker 2: on your own little island, and that there's so so

626
00:35:36,316 --> 00:35:42,676
Speaker 2: much that's an incredibly liberating moment to be the outside,

627
00:35:42,676 --> 00:35:45,516
Speaker 2: you know, to be so I feel like we're overprivileging

628
00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:49,636
Speaker 2: the set of advantages that come from belonging, and we're

629
00:35:49,876 --> 00:35:54,516
Speaker 2: under we have underestimated the set of storytelling advantages that

630
00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:57,956
Speaker 2: come from being the fly on the wall who's just like,

631
00:35:58,996 --> 00:36:01,876
Speaker 2: you know, you don't know anything to Stanley. That's why

632
00:36:01,956 --> 00:36:04,436
Speaker 2: you're able to do that. You're not if you were

633
00:36:04,516 --> 00:36:07,156
Speaker 2: part of his world, you would have been constrained in

634
00:36:07,276 --> 00:36:10,316
Speaker 2: your portrayal of him. Similarly, Lucky, if you were part

635
00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:11,796
Speaker 2: of his world, you would have been coned. You're on.

636
00:36:12,396 --> 00:36:16,316
Speaker 2: You were unconstrained because you weren't. This wasn't And that's

637
00:36:16,396 --> 00:36:18,316
Speaker 2: like why it's so important for all of us at

638
00:36:18,356 --> 00:36:23,516
Speaker 2: storytelling to defend the right of the storyteller to describe

639
00:36:23,556 --> 00:36:25,916
Speaker 2: worlds of which they are not a part. That is

640
00:36:26,756 --> 00:36:30,516
Speaker 2: it's so essential that we defend that.

641
00:36:30,756 --> 00:36:35,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and particularly for writers, right, there's something about

642
00:36:35,396 --> 00:36:37,796
Speaker 1: you know, there's something about the screenwriter which is different

643
00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:42,276
Speaker 1: from the other other jobs on the set, which then

644
00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:48,316
Speaker 1: you're required to give voice to to dozens of different people, right,

645
00:36:48,636 --> 00:36:51,356
Speaker 1: you know, and and to be good at that, you

646
00:36:51,596 --> 00:36:54,276
Speaker 1: you know, you need to be able to to to

647
00:36:54,556 --> 00:36:58,316
Speaker 1: understand different types and embrace different worlds. And I do

648
00:36:58,436 --> 00:37:01,076
Speaker 1: think you're right. We've undervalued in a way what it

649
00:37:01,276 --> 00:37:03,956
Speaker 1: means to be, you know, to be someone who lurks

650
00:37:03,996 --> 00:37:07,196
Speaker 1: above it a little bit, right, Uh, certainly in my field,

651
00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:10,156
Speaker 1: now maybe in maybe in other fields, to be different, right,

652
00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,316
Speaker 1: I think what the end that people want is they

653
00:37:13,396 --> 00:37:17,596
Speaker 1: want everyone from different backgrounds to be able to tell

654
00:37:17,676 --> 00:37:20,076
Speaker 1: their story, to be in the position to sort of

655
00:37:20,076 --> 00:37:22,236
Speaker 1: sit in the director's chair if they want, or to

656
00:37:22,316 --> 00:37:24,996
Speaker 1: sell screenplays that they want, and that is that is

657
00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:29,556
Speaker 1: the goal. Right. That doesn't necessarily mean, however, that we

658
00:37:29,596 --> 00:37:33,116
Speaker 1: should silo off our industry in that way, you know,

659
00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:35,956
Speaker 1: and silo off our subjects, because we do. We do

660
00:37:36,116 --> 00:37:40,756
Speaker 1: lose something when we are no longer communicating across you know,

661
00:37:40,956 --> 00:37:44,876
Speaker 1: not just cultural or racial lines, but ideological lines. You know.

662
00:37:46,596 --> 00:37:52,076
Speaker 2: You know, what's interesting about this story told today is

663
00:37:53,036 --> 00:37:58,116
Speaker 2: obviously it's sort of it fits a project conceived in

664
00:37:58,196 --> 00:38:01,356
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, feels makes us a little honey

665
00:38:01,716 --> 00:38:06,236
Speaker 2: of this nature makes us a little uneasy in twenty

666
00:38:06,316 --> 00:38:09,716
Speaker 2: twenty four, nearly twenty years later. The other thing is

667
00:38:09,796 --> 00:38:12,996
Speaker 2: that it was interesting about it is that I feel

668
00:38:13,076 --> 00:38:19,556
Speaker 2: like our uh, our attitude towards projects like this on

669
00:38:19,756 --> 00:38:24,916
Speaker 2: the on the kind of racial periphery have become a binary.

670
00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:28,436
Speaker 2: We think of white projects and black projects, and a

671
00:38:28,516 --> 00:38:30,516
Speaker 2: white project is done by a white person, and a

672
00:38:30,556 --> 00:38:32,996
Speaker 2: black person project gets done by a black person. But

673
00:38:33,196 --> 00:38:36,756
Speaker 2: this movie isn't black or white. It's about black beating

674
00:38:36,796 --> 00:38:39,036
Speaker 2: white and white meeting black and like so it's like

675
00:38:39,436 --> 00:38:42,956
Speaker 2: it's not clear each side has a right to tell

676
00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:46,356
Speaker 2: the story right, and a lot of what's what's going

677
00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:48,596
Speaker 2: on in this kind of like like when you talked

678
00:38:48,596 --> 00:38:51,996
Speaker 2: about the one director loves it and then the interns

679
00:38:52,036 --> 00:38:54,276
Speaker 2: read it the black and say you can't do it,

680
00:38:54,436 --> 00:39:00,396
Speaker 2: is that it's a dispute about they're obviously understandably reading

681
00:39:00,516 --> 00:39:04,996
Speaker 2: this through their eyes as black beats white. Stanley's reading

682
00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:10,116
Speaker 2: this as white beats black, right, and like it's it irresolvable,

683
00:39:10,716 --> 00:39:14,116
Speaker 2: it's not. What makes it fascinating is that I can't

684
00:39:14,276 --> 00:39:18,196
Speaker 2: think of a movie that a contemporary movie. I mean

685
00:39:18,276 --> 00:39:22,236
Speaker 2: this movie today would give us fits. I mean, you'll

686
00:39:22,236 --> 00:39:24,396
Speaker 2: give us fits today because no one can decide what

687
00:39:24,556 --> 00:39:25,876
Speaker 2: it is exactly.

688
00:39:25,996 --> 00:39:28,756
Speaker 1: It would it would, it would aggravate an unresolved tension

689
00:39:28,836 --> 00:39:31,636
Speaker 1: in our society. And I think the mistake I made

690
00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:34,236
Speaker 1: is I assumed that I knew where society was going.

691
00:39:34,716 --> 00:39:36,676
Speaker 1: I assumed that I knew that what's going to happen

692
00:39:37,236 --> 00:39:39,236
Speaker 1: is that we're all going to be better at working

693
00:39:39,316 --> 00:39:44,356
Speaker 1: through our residual racist attitudes, thoughts, beliefs, and we're going

694
00:39:44,436 --> 00:39:47,476
Speaker 1: to get closer and closer. In fact, the film ends

695
00:39:47,836 --> 00:39:51,516
Speaker 1: with Stanley listening to a bit of rap, and this was,

696
00:39:51,556 --> 00:39:53,996
Speaker 1: of course, after Obama had been elected, So the sort

697
00:39:54,036 --> 00:39:56,276
Speaker 1: of message of the film was actually, we're we're on

698
00:39:56,396 --> 00:39:58,636
Speaker 1: the road. We're not there yet, but we're on the road.

699
00:39:58,916 --> 00:40:01,196
Speaker 1: And of course that didn't happen. Where I thought society

700
00:40:01,276 --> 00:40:03,196
Speaker 1: was going is not where we went. We were trenched

701
00:40:03,316 --> 00:40:08,276
Speaker 1: back into, you know, even stronger understandings of the importance

702
00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:12,556
Speaker 1: of race and not to some you know, idealized version

703
00:40:12,676 --> 00:40:15,316
Speaker 1: of all. It's going to learn to ignore our differences

704
00:40:15,396 --> 00:40:17,836
Speaker 1: more and more and embrace, you know, in these these

705
00:40:17,916 --> 00:40:21,676
Speaker 1: things that won't matter, and you know, you couldn't. I mean,

706
00:40:21,676 --> 00:40:23,556
Speaker 1: you couldn't do the film today even reading it today.

707
00:40:23,596 --> 00:40:25,236
Speaker 1: I read it today in a restaurant and I just

708
00:40:25,236 --> 00:40:27,636
Speaker 1: try myself wincing, you know, every other page, because it's

709
00:40:27,676 --> 00:40:29,796
Speaker 1: you know, I you know, I really went for it.

710
00:40:29,876 --> 00:40:33,076
Speaker 1: I really am. It's very provocative in places, in people

711
00:40:33,156 --> 00:40:36,476
Speaker 1: saying the things that they're not supposed to say. You know,

712
00:40:36,636 --> 00:40:40,796
Speaker 1: I'm always interested in things that feel uncomfortable and awkward

713
00:40:40,956 --> 00:40:42,716
Speaker 1: for me, like like I don't know, I want to

714
00:40:42,796 --> 00:40:45,356
Speaker 1: go there, because what that gives you, if you will

715
00:40:45,556 --> 00:40:48,356
Speaker 1: sort of take on those subjects, is the texture of

716
00:40:48,396 --> 00:40:51,876
Speaker 1: the world starts to become really interesting. I mean, because

717
00:40:52,036 --> 00:40:56,156
Speaker 1: suddenly every little choice matters, you know, And and that's why,

718
00:40:56,676 --> 00:40:58,476
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of the one of the scripts

719
00:40:58,516 --> 00:41:00,996
Speaker 1: that I enjoyed writing the most, because every little choice

720
00:41:01,036 --> 00:41:04,516
Speaker 1: starts to matter, right, because all kick comes laden with meaning.

721
00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:07,236
Speaker 1: Part of it is just a professional habit of Okay,

722
00:41:07,316 --> 00:41:10,156
Speaker 1: it's awkward, it's uncomfortable. That's whe I'm going to go, right,

723
00:41:10,236 --> 00:41:12,676
Speaker 1: But also part of it is, you know, I do

724
00:41:12,876 --> 00:41:16,876
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, this is not writing in the novel.

725
00:41:17,276 --> 00:41:21,236
Speaker 1: This is a collective endeavor, and we get to check

726
00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:25,036
Speaker 1: our work with people of all sorts, of all stripes,

727
00:41:25,676 --> 00:41:29,076
Speaker 1: and you know, if we're open and if we're all

728
00:41:29,156 --> 00:41:33,356
Speaker 1: working hard, you know we can we can get to

729
00:41:33,716 --> 00:41:36,116
Speaker 1: something that feels very true. If you try things and

730
00:41:36,196 --> 00:41:37,796
Speaker 1: that they work, they work, and if they don't, they don't.

731
00:41:37,836 --> 00:41:39,476
Speaker 1: That's what this is. That's what this is why we

732
00:41:39,556 --> 00:41:41,916
Speaker 1: do why I do this business, and it allows us

733
00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:44,756
Speaker 1: to take greater risk, I think, instead of less right

734
00:41:44,876 --> 00:41:46,836
Speaker 1: because you know we're working together.

735
00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:51,796
Speaker 2: There is no movie version of the Birthday Party. When

736
00:41:51,836 --> 00:41:56,756
Speaker 2: Milos Forman drops out, it's the end. The adaptation does

737
00:41:56,836 --> 00:42:00,716
Speaker 2: not survive the harsh conditions and obstacles thrown in its way,

738
00:42:01,836 --> 00:42:23,356
Speaker 2: which is a shame. This episode was produced by Nina

739
00:42:23,396 --> 00:42:27,956
Speaker 2: Bird Lawrence with Tali Emlin and Bena daph Haffrey. Editing

740
00:42:28,076 --> 00:42:31,676
Speaker 2: by Sarah Nix, original scoring by Luis Quira, Engineering by

741
00:42:31,716 --> 00:42:37,436
Speaker 2: Echo Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.

742
00:42:45,836 --> 00:42:48,996
Speaker 2: Next time on Development Hell, Patty Jenkins talks about her

743
00:42:49,556 --> 00:42:50,916
Speaker 2: R rated Dog movie.

744
00:42:51,796 --> 00:42:52,076
Speaker 1: This is.

745
00:42:54,316 --> 00:42:57,996
Speaker 2: This sort of on one level is super bleak. It's

746
00:42:58,036 --> 00:42:58,956
Speaker 2: not it's.

747
00:42:58,916 --> 00:43:00,716
Speaker 3: Magical, no, it is it is.

748
00:43:00,916 --> 00:43:02,996
Speaker 1: The journey is bleak, and it seems like it's going

749
00:43:03,076 --> 00:43:04,436
Speaker 1: to be, but it ends up being magical.

750
00:43:05,396 --> 00:43:07,316
Speaker 2: It heads up that our friends over at the Happiness

751
00:43:07,436 --> 00:43:09,956
Speaker 2: Lab have a special episode I'm in Your Way soon

752
00:43:10,356 --> 00:43:14,276
Speaker 2: to celebrate World Happiness Day. I'm in it talking about

753
00:43:14,356 --> 00:43:18,596
Speaker 2: running and the journey versus a destination Spoiler alert, I'm

754
00:43:18,636 --> 00:43:21,716
Speaker 2: a destination guy, not a journey guy. It'll be dropping

755
00:43:21,756 --> 00:43:24,196
Speaker 2: into this feed on March twentieth, but you can find

756
00:43:24,236 --> 00:43:27,836
Speaker 2: happiness tips from doctor Lori Santo's any Day over at

757
00:43:27,876 --> 00:43:28,716
Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab