Speaker 1: You know, Maggie. Sometimes we see cases where someone's almost
Speaker 1: on the verge of being exaggerated and they die, and
Speaker 1: yet the attorneys or the innocence projects, whoever is in
Speaker 1: all the case, continue the fight to prove their innocence.
Speaker 1: Many people must wonder why don't they just drop it
Speaker 1: at that point that the person is gone. You know,
Speaker 1: I think specifically because these people's families still exist, and
Speaker 1: and they're still around, and there's generations of kids and
Speaker 1: grandkids that want to have justice for their loved one
Speaker 1: and for themselves. So I think it's it's really important
Speaker 1: to make sure that all of these wrongs are righted.
Speaker 1: You know, As I said, there and I talked to him,
Speaker 1: and he was just hooked up to so many machines,
Speaker 1: and and I whispered in his ear and said, how
Speaker 1: are you going to come back in my life? And
Speaker 1: then you're just gonna die on me. You can't be
Speaker 1: my husband if you die right from love of for good.
Speaker 1: This his wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeley today Troy Burner.
Speaker 1: On April, year old Michael Wilson was walking with his
Speaker 1: friend Joseph Kinnard when two masked gunmen suddenly ambushed them.
Speaker 1: Joseph fled unharmed, but Michael was shot at least six times.
Speaker 1: He passed away days later in the hospital. Although Michael
Speaker 1: named his attackers before he died, investigators were somehow at
Speaker 1: a loss and the case went cold for three years.
Speaker 1: But in the years following the crime, things heated up
Speaker 1: when police arrested multiple men looking to strike deals in
Speaker 1: exchange for lighter sentences. Troy Burner's name was dragged into
Speaker 1: this process. Eventually, among various conflicting statements, Troy was named
Speaker 1: as one of the people present at Michael Wilson's shooting,
Speaker 1: ready to go with a gun in his hands. Troy
Speaker 1: was a good kid with an impressive job a radiology
Speaker 1: aid at George Washington University Hospital, and he had an
Speaker 1: alibi for the time of the shooting. But Troy's career
Speaker 1: and life trajectory unfortunately came to a quick halt when
Speaker 1: his name got caught up in an elaborate murder plot.
Speaker 1: You know, my whole thing was, you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with it, so you know, and
Speaker 1: they're not gonna be to find nobody to say I
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it, So you know I
Speaker 1: held onto that, you know that belief where they say
Speaker 1: the truth sets you free. My name is Troy Burner.
Speaker 1: I was wrongly convicted, serving twenty four years, eight months
Speaker 1: in twenty two days. Troy Burner was born in Southeast Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. On August nineteen seventy two. Two um Janice
Speaker 1: Burner and Janice Burner. No, that's a joke. That did
Speaker 1: I do? Because I say my mother is my father.
Speaker 1: But oh uh, Clarence Arvio Smell, So were your parents
Speaker 1: not together? Didn't know? They know they were. I was
Speaker 1: raised by my mom and my two grandmothers. Troy is
Speaker 1: the oldest of five siblings. He says in many ways
Speaker 1: he was like a father figure even within his extended family.
Speaker 1: As a teen, Troy got into boxing and would bring
Speaker 1: his pack of siblings, cousins, nieces, and nephews to his matches.
Speaker 1: He remembers the times they all hung out, and especially
Speaker 1: remembers his cousin Carlos. You know, I used to take
Speaker 1: him to the jail with me and he was like, man,
Speaker 1: I remember when you was in there and you were
Speaker 1: spawned with such a session he was doing this. Man,
Speaker 1: we were so happy. We was jumping around. I remember
Speaker 1: when you know, I came to your fight and you know,
Speaker 1: and things of that nation. You know, we might just
Speaker 1: be talking and I'd be just telling him how funny
Speaker 1: is you know, he might be like, you say, I'm funny,
Speaker 1: you know, like where you think I get it from?
Speaker 1: You know, and and and really it don't come from me.
Speaker 1: But you know, just the fact that you know, we
Speaker 1: think enough for me to say that, it means a
Speaker 1: great deal. Troy also had a lot of neighborhood friends.
Speaker 1: I remember saying this a little kid, and I would
Speaker 1: get excited. You know, you're sticking out a little ears,
Speaker 1: sticking out socks up there here. And I was like, oh, come, Troy.
Speaker 1: You know this is Shari. She grew up with Troy.
Speaker 1: You didn't have to say that. There's no way that
Speaker 1: she would have known that my ears stuck out from
Speaker 1: my head if you didn't say that. Shary's mom and
Speaker 1: Troy's mom were friends as children. You know, we played together.
Speaker 1: We were you know, even back then, we were we
Speaker 1: were really close. Our parents thinking together, my mom being
Speaker 1: a single mom. They kind of kept us, you know,
Speaker 1: close together. You know, have him stance and you know,
Speaker 1: circumstances in life. We grew and he went one way.
Speaker 1: I went one way. At sixteen, Troy dropped out of school,
Speaker 1: but he wasn't done with his education. He got his
Speaker 1: g e d. Before his class graduated and went on
Speaker 1: to become a radiology aid at George Washington University Hospital.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of things that you know, I
Speaker 1: was done and would have liked to have further. Um.
Speaker 1: You know that again, that was one of the things,
Speaker 1: like I said in hindsight, you know, that would definitely
Speaker 1: have been um something that I could have went on
Speaker 1: and down further. Unfortunately, I'm a I'm a man of
Speaker 1: many of fulfill dreames. Not long after he started his
Speaker 1: radiology job, when he was only seventeen, Troy was pulled
Speaker 1: into the criminal legal system and his dreams were shattered.
Speaker 1: You know, I just think, you know, there was a
Speaker 1: particular to M man that there was so many things
Speaker 1: that I could have done, and you know, Robertson was
Speaker 1: taken from me. M just a heads up, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of names to keep track of with this story,
Speaker 1: so pay careful attention. Shortly after nine pm on April,
Speaker 1: Michael Wilson and Joseph Kinnard both seven. We're walking down
Speaker 1: street in Washington, d C. They had just met up
Speaker 1: with Michael's girlfriend, Jerry, her brother, and their friend. The
Speaker 1: trio left Michael and Joseph and got in their car
Speaker 1: to leave. They had only driven half a block before
Speaker 1: they heard gunfire. The shots were from two masked gunmen
Speaker 1: who all of a sudden were ambushing Michael and Joseph.
Speaker 1: Joseph fled unharmed, but Michael was shot at least six
Speaker 1: times in the back as he was trying to escape.
Speaker 1: At the hospital, he was fortunately able to tell his
Speaker 1: girlfriend Jerry who shot him. On a piece of paper,
Speaker 1: he wrote the names Louis and Little Rick, but that
Speaker 1: was all she would get. On May eight, Michael succumbed
Speaker 1: to his wounds and passed away in the hospital. Although
Speaker 1: Michael gave the names of his attackers, investigators didn't follow
Speaker 1: up on these leads, and the case went cold for
Speaker 1: almost three years. But things started to shift when police
Speaker 1: arrested a man named Antonio Johnson. He was busted with
Speaker 1: an oozy and other guns, as well as five hundred
Speaker 1: grams of crap cocaine. Facing serious charges, he agreed to
Speaker 1: cooperate with the prosecution and became an informant. Johnson eventually
Speaker 1: wound up helping prosecutors in more than three dozen cases
Speaker 1: and earning quite a bit of money in exchange. About
Speaker 1: a year later, in after he had already agreed to
Speaker 1: cooperate with the police, Johnson implicated for people in the
Speaker 1: shooting of Michael Wilson, Louis lou McCoy and Rick Harrod,
Speaker 1: the two men who Michael named before he died, as
Speaker 1: well as Frank Brackmoort and Troy Burner. However, Johnson clarified
Speaker 1: that Troy did not fire his gun. Did you know
Speaker 1: the people involved in this crime? Were you familiar with
Speaker 1: any of them? Um? Well, my co defend is a
Speaker 1: norm and and and that was essentially you know how
Speaker 1: I got, you know, swept up until the victim itself,
Speaker 1: I didn't know. Um well, I for all respect do
Speaker 1: God bless the day. I mean, it's not possible if
Speaker 1: you walked in my face right now, I wouldn't know
Speaker 1: who he was. About four months later, a man named
Speaker 1: Antoine Peyton was arrested for a murder that took place
Speaker 1: a few months before Michael Wilson's and only two blocks
Speaker 1: away from where Wilson was shot, and when he was
Speaker 1: arrested for that murder, Peyton was actually already in prison
Speaker 1: for two drug convictions. To avoid more charges, Peyton started
Speaker 1: giving information in the Michael Wilson case, and he ended
Speaker 1: up giving the same names that Johnson did, lou Rick, Brackmoort,
Speaker 1: and Troy. Eventually, Peyton was offered a plea deal to
Speaker 1: confess to his murder case for a lesser charge. The
Speaker 1: deal was he had to give a statement and testify
Speaker 1: at the Michael Wilson murder trial. Peyton agreed. You know,
Speaker 1: it was a ticket the time in d C. And
Speaker 1: they have all these collaborative law enforcement UM investigations going on,
Speaker 1: and they're trying to cause all these cold cases. And
Speaker 1: this case came up. On March fifteenth, almost exactly three
Speaker 1: years after Michael Wilson's death, a grand jury investigation into
Speaker 1: his murder began. The important thing about this, though, was
Speaker 1: that Troy was not named as a subject of the investigation,
Speaker 1: only lou Rick and brackmoret At this point, Troy had
Speaker 1: not been named by the government at all. Initially, Peyton
Speaker 1: had told police that he didn't witness the shooting, but
Speaker 1: in front of the grand jury. He testified that he
Speaker 1: knew about the plant had on Michael and that he
Speaker 1: drove to the scene and parked in an alley to watch.
Speaker 1: Peyton said he saw lou and Rick chased down Michael
Speaker 1: and shoot him, and that Troy was not there. He
Speaker 1: said that after the shooting, they all went to Brackmot's apartment,
Speaker 1: including Troy. Everyone was angry at Troy for not showing
Speaker 1: up at the scene, and according to Peyton, Troy said
Speaker 1: he didn't participate because there would have been crossfire. A
Speaker 1: grand jeur followed up with a question, jen why would
Speaker 1: Troy have been afraid of the crossfire, and Peyton changed
Speaker 1: his story again. He replied that Troy actually was at
Speaker 1: the scene of the crime, but that he didn't have
Speaker 1: a gun or do anything. This was the first time
Speaker 1: Peyton actually placed Troy at the scene, and it sealed
Speaker 1: Troy's fate. In April, the grand jury indicted all four men,
Speaker 1: lou Rick, Brackmoort, and Troy, and charges a first degree murder.
Speaker 1: So when you get charged, what are you thinking? Like?
Speaker 1: You have everything going for you, you have a great life,
Speaker 1: You're you're making moves and now suddenly you're in the
Speaker 1: middle of a murder and you are charged with this murder. Well, um, initially,
Speaker 1: you know I really didn't. I really didn't have any
Speaker 1: thoughts on it because you know, my whole thing was, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't have nothing to do with it,
Speaker 1: so you know, and they're not gonna be the final
Speaker 1: body to say I had not to do with it.
Speaker 1: So you know, I held on too of that, you know,
Speaker 1: that belief where they say the true set you free.
Speaker 1: The trial against the men started a year later. The
Speaker 1: judge who oversaw the trial, Judge John H. Suda, denied
Speaker 1: a request by Troy's attorney to have him tried separately
Speaker 1: from his co defendants. At the trial, Antoine Peyton testified
Speaker 1: again and gave yet another story on what exactly happened
Speaker 1: the night of the shooting and the days leading up
Speaker 1: to it. In this version, he said he saw Troy
Speaker 1: with a gun in his hands. Antonio Johnson, the first informant,
Speaker 1: also testified that he heard blackmoret Bragg about ordering the
Speaker 1: other guys to shoot, but that Troy didn't do so
Speaker 1: because his gun was jammed. And Michael Wilson's girlfriend and
Speaker 1: her brother also testified during the trial. They said they
Speaker 1: only saw two attackers. Even with contradiction after contradiction by
Speaker 1: the state's witnesses, the case against Troy and his co
Speaker 1: defendants was enough for the jury, and just over four
Speaker 1: years after the murder of Michael Wilson, all four men
Speaker 1: were convicted of first degree murder. Troy was sentenced to
Speaker 1: thirty years to life, the longest sentence of them all.
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by a i G, a leading
Speaker 1: global insurance company. A i G is committed to corporate
Speaker 1: social responsibility and to making a positive difference in the
Speaker 1: lives of its employees and in the communities where we
Speaker 1: work and live. In light of the compelling need for
Speaker 1: pro bono legal assistance, and in recognition of a i
Speaker 1: g s commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the
Speaker 1: a i G pro Bono Program provides free legal services
Speaker 1: and other support to underrepresented communities and individual wills. Troy
Speaker 1: entered prison when he was twenty one years old. A
Speaker 1: few years went by, and then one day in two
Speaker 1: thousand nine, Troy was approached by a new arrival at
Speaker 1: the prison. Um My guy came down, you know from
Speaker 1: another institution, you know, somebody from d C. And he
Speaker 1: was like, man, I was out talking to this dude,
Speaker 1: and then he was like, man, he said, you think
Speaker 1: he got something that belone to you. Troy had no
Speaker 1: idea what it was, so he made a point to
Speaker 1: meet this person. So, you know, we set up a
Speaker 1: time to meet the guy out the yard on the
Speaker 1: rack yard and we walked on the yard and dude
Speaker 1: pulled out the payment said, he said, I think that you.
Speaker 1: He said, because since I've been here, I've been here
Speaker 1: your name. He said, I think this you. And it
Speaker 1: was after David from Antoine Peyton. Antoine Peyton, the state's
Speaker 1: star witness in Troy's trial, had recanted. In the signed affidavit,
Speaker 1: Peyton admitted he lied about being at the scene of
Speaker 1: the crime and lied about Troy being there. Troy now
Speaker 1: had something he could use to help prove his innocence,
Speaker 1: so he got to work. For the next six years,
Speaker 1: Troy read up on law and in without the help
Speaker 1: of a lawyer, filed a motion for innocence. The petition
Speaker 1: included Peyton's recantation, as well as an affidavit from Rick
Speaker 1: Karad saying that only he and lou chased and shot
Speaker 1: the victims. Troy was not with them. This new account
Speaker 1: by Rick was exactly what Michael had expressed in the
Speaker 1: first place. Also, by this time, Antonio Johnson had admitted
Speaker 1: that the prosecutors essentially told him what to say at trial,
Speaker 1: but the motion was denied. Troy then reached out to
Speaker 1: the mid Atlantic Innocence Project or m a i P.
Speaker 1: You know, Troy had done a lot of work on
Speaker 1: his case, presented some new evidence to us that got
Speaker 1: us interested, and um had us dig deeper. This is
Speaker 1: Francis Walters. She's a former legal director of the Mid
Speaker 1: Atlantic Innocence Project and is now an attorney advisor at
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice Office of the Pardon Attorney for
Speaker 1: Incis was Troy's post conviction attorney. What stood out in
Speaker 1: Troy's case was that there was very minimal evidence of
Speaker 1: any involvement in the crime. Uh and it's pretty unusual
Speaker 1: to have someone convicted on such minimal evidence and then
Speaker 1: to have this recantation. It really it wasn't hard to
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that Troy was innocent. Troy's team
Speaker 1: went out and confirmed the recantation from Peyton. They also
Speaker 1: discovered more information about him. One of the things that
Speaker 1: had happened was Peyton said in an affidavit that he
Speaker 1: had expected Troy to help him out in one of
Speaker 1: his own cases, and he got angry when Troy in
Speaker 1: and so he said, you know what, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: throw him in there. Remember Peyton had made a deal
Speaker 1: with the police to testify for leniency in his own
Speaker 1: murder case. We found like an FBI memo that said
Speaker 1: he was like the most prolific confidential informant they had
Speaker 1: ever used. The team continued to investigate Troy's conviction and
Speaker 1: they uncovered some alibi witnesses who could help clear his name.
Speaker 1: A couple of people who were from the neighborhood where
Speaker 1: the shooting took place. They learned about Troys and car
Speaker 1: Strage and many years later, and when they learned about it,
Speaker 1: they said, what Troy was playing dice with us? Again,
Speaker 1: not someone who was close to Troy, And he said,
Speaker 1: but we were all from this laundry room and we
Speaker 1: were all playing dice together, and so he couldn't have
Speaker 1: been there. Um, So all those pieces of evidence we
Speaker 1: brought to the court in m A I P. Along
Speaker 1: with Attorney Seth Rosenthal and Lawrence stock Smith from the
Speaker 1: law from Venable LLP filed a new motion. They were
Speaker 1: granted an evidence. You're hearing, says Monday, Tuesday. Soalu testified,
Speaker 1: Rick testified, Two alibi witnesses testified. Usually a judge takes
Speaker 1: weeks or months to rule, but in this case, it
Speaker 1: only took a week. The court had called us back
Speaker 1: because he was ready to resentence Troy to time served
Speaker 1: and let him be released from incarceration. At that point,
Speaker 1: it was an amazing day. I mean, we thought it
Speaker 1: would happen, but you just never know. And so um,
Speaker 1: that was pretty special that the judge did that the
Speaker 1: very week that we presented all the evidence of innocence.
Speaker 1: Although Troy was released on time served, he was still
Speaker 1: not exonerated at this point, but he continued to work
Speaker 1: on his innocence claim while out and about enjoying life.
Speaker 1: One night he was out at a club. I looked
Speaker 1: up and I just saw him walking through the club,
Speaker 1: and you know, in my mind, the first thing that
Speaker 1: the flashback was, you know, a little boy with ears
Speaker 1: sticking out. And I looked then I said, that's Troy Bernard.
Speaker 1: And I ran over there and he gave me a hug,
Speaker 1: and he was like little Shari, You're back, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: where you been? And he's like, you didn't know? I said, well,
Speaker 1: I know some, but you know, not everything. Over the years,
Speaker 1: Troy and Shari's mothers had stayed in touch, and so
Speaker 1: Shari had heard little bits here and there about Troy's situation.
Speaker 1: He you know, he sat down and we talked, and
Speaker 1: he explained and told me everything that happened. From that
Speaker 1: point forward, Shari says she and Troy became close again
Speaker 1: like they were when they were kids. A romance soon
Speaker 1: developed and they were inseparable. So what happened next, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he was on parole um and and then Troy
Speaker 1: got really really sick um and that was scary for everyone, um,
Speaker 1: thinking that he could die. Before even having a decision
Speaker 1: in his innocence case in Troy was diagnosed with the
Speaker 1: flu and pneumonia. His condition was so bad it looked
Speaker 1: like he might not make it. Yeah, they put him
Speaker 1: in a comb expatchwife. His mom she called me and
Speaker 1: she she woke me up one night and she said
Speaker 1: they lost him, and I think I panicked and she said, baby,
Speaker 1: calmed down, he's back. They brought him back, and you know,
Speaker 1: and I was like, my, don't do that, you know,
Speaker 1: don't call me right away and say they lost them.
Speaker 1: But yes, she called, and she said, well, she said,
Speaker 1: I just want you to know. She said, he's back,
Speaker 1: you know, just get up there and go see him.
Speaker 1: You know. So I sat there and I talked to him,
Speaker 1: and he was just hooked up to so many machines,
Speaker 1: and you know, it was just kind of hard to
Speaker 1: look at him for a little bit. But then I
Speaker 1: just I remember leaning over and whispering in his ear
Speaker 1: because she said, you know, just go talk to him.
Speaker 1: You know, he could hear you. He's just resting. Go
Speaker 1: talk to him. And I whispered in his ear, and
Speaker 1: I said, how are you going to come back in
Speaker 1: my life? And then you're just gonna die on me?
Speaker 1: You can't be my husband if you die right and
Speaker 1: get his eyes just now, you know, that would have
Speaker 1: that would have been yeah, that would have been a story,
Speaker 1: you know, but surely you know, about a month or
Speaker 1: so after that, his mom she called me and she
Speaker 1: was just he's back. Troy was put in rehab and
Speaker 1: Shari went to see him there. You know, he just
Speaker 1: gave me the biggest hug and he told me. He
Speaker 1: was like, you know you're gonna be my wife. And
Speaker 1: I said, well, you must have heard what I said
Speaker 1: to you, man, huh. And he was just kind of
Speaker 1: looking at me, like what are you talking about. Later,
Speaker 1: I said, you know, so I whispered in your ear.
Speaker 1: You know you must have heard what I said too.
Speaker 1: Troy was alive and with his love, but he was
Speaker 1: still a prisoner of the state working on his innocence claim.
Speaker 1: On March, he left rehab, but he didn't have to
Speaker 1: wait long to hear the news he had been waiting for. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm designerated, just four days after he finished rehab UM
Speaker 1: when we weren't sure he was going to make it.
Speaker 1: At forty eight years old, Troy was a freeman. Today,
Speaker 1: Troy's an associate with the Justice Policy Institute, helping others
Speaker 1: who have been wrongfully convicted. He's also involved with other
Speaker 1: organizations that help people caught up in the criminal legal system,
Speaker 1: including the organization Changing Perceptions, which helps formally incarcerated people
Speaker 1: adjust to life outside prison. Troy has published multiple articles
Speaker 1: about the criminal legal system as well. A March, exactly
Speaker 1: one year from his exoneration, Troy and Sharik got married
Speaker 1: so what are what are y'all's plans hope streams for
Speaker 1: the future. Well, I have four four children from a
Speaker 1: previous marriage that they've all adopted him. So he is
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, he's like the ultimate stepdad and pop pop.
Speaker 1: So we you know, we have um seven grandkids. Oh
Speaker 1: all boys, you know, say you're still very young to
Speaker 1: be like you're young, You're forty what this big fifty
Speaker 1: this year? This year? Okay, I might party all fifty
Speaker 1: states and city near you were you at uh? As
Speaker 1: For Troy, he feels like he's been given a whole
Speaker 1: new chance at life. Well, you just heard the story,
Speaker 1: you know about me being sick and the doctor told me,
Speaker 1: you know, when I got to there, rehappy said, you know,
Speaker 1: you you a miracle. You're not supposed to be here.
Speaker 1: And I told him essentially that he was a damn lie.
Speaker 1: You know, God said other wives. Wasn't my time? Um
Speaker 1: And even without that, you know, I had to settle
Speaker 1: my emotions down and find some acceptance and understanding what happened,
Speaker 1: because if I didn't, my emotions would have took you know, control,
Speaker 1: and just try to continue life and find you know,
Speaker 1: that opportunity to see society again, otherwise I would have
Speaker 1: been lost. Comes to the point, man, where it just
Speaker 1: you know, it had to be accepted, you know, to
Speaker 1: move on, because otherwise there's nothing melts I can do
Speaker 1: and be have an opportunity, you know, to speak with
Speaker 1: you and share my story and my understanding and also
Speaker 1: you know, on my every day, you know, with my work.
Speaker 1: You know, I just try to pull my efforts into that,
Speaker 1: and somehow I come to the realization that that would
Speaker 1: allow me to make some sense out of all of this.
Speaker 1: M m M. Next time Unwrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling
Speaker 1: Martie Yang. There was nobody that could help me at
Speaker 1: that point. My parents couldn't help, my attorney couldn't seem
Speaker 1: to protect us. I couldn't go to the police. They
Speaker 1: were the ones that were terrorizing us. I had just
Speaker 1: decided I'm just going to tell them whatever they want
Speaker 1: to hear. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling. Please support your local innocence organizations and go
Speaker 1: to the links in our bio to see how you
Speaker 1: can help. I'd like to thank our executive producers, Jason
Speaker 1: Flam and Kevin Wordis as well as our senior producer,
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, researcher Lila Robinson, story editor Sonya Paul, with
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Cleburne and Connor Hall. The music
Speaker 1: in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer
Speaker 1: Jay Row. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on
Speaker 1: Twitter at Wrongful Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.
Speaker 1: On all three platforms, you can also follow me on
Speaker 1: both Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
Speaker 1: in association with Signal Company Number one