Speaker 1: She was a born storyteller. At the age of three
Speaker 1: or four, um she would be observed holding a book
Speaker 1: in her hands, off and upside down, and she would
Speaker 1: walk back and forth and make up and create a
Speaker 1: story that her mother arranged for a play date with
Speaker 1: young friends. He would actually refuse them and insist that
Speaker 1: her mother played with him so that she could she
Speaker 1: could continue on making up. That was Susan Whistler talking
Speaker 1: about young Edith Wharton, the first woman to win the
Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize for Literature. Wharton is the author of classics
Speaker 1: like The Age of Innocence and The House of Mirth.
Speaker 1: She created an unforgettable portrait of nineteenth century America and
Speaker 1: women's role in it. I'm a land Ververe and this
Speaker 1: is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We are bringing you
Speaker 1: one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making
Speaker 1: women you need to hear. Edith Wharton's books continue to
Speaker 1: sell widely, even a hundred years after their publication, and
Speaker 1: they've been the source for many movies starring everyone from
Speaker 1: Betty Davis to Michelle Peiffer. But Wharton was more than
Speaker 1: a novelist. She was also a forward looking designer, of
Speaker 1: homes and gardens, and for her relief work during World
Speaker 1: War One, she was a hero to the French people.
Speaker 1: We got a fascinating insight into Wharton's life from Susan Whistler,
Speaker 1: the executive director of the Mount, the beautiful estate Wharton
Speaker 1: built in the Berkshire Mountains of Massachusetts. Listen and learn
Speaker 1: from Susan Whistler why Edith Wharton is one of Seneca's
Speaker 1: on women to hear. I'm speaking today to Susan Whistler,
Speaker 1: the executive director of the Mount the Estate of Edith Wharton,
Speaker 1: and we're going to be speaking about Edith Wharton and
Speaker 1: her place in America's literary history and so much more. Susan,
Speaker 1: it is a wonderful pleasure to have you with us today. Well, Malan,
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Edith Wharton wrote
Speaker 1: about the world of the wealthy during the Gilded Age
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds. She gave us memorable novels, including
Speaker 1: The Age of Innocence in the House of Mirth. She
Speaker 1: was the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for
Speaker 1: Literature for the Age of Innocence. She was also a
Speaker 1: designer and a decorator, and her passion for houses and
Speaker 1: gardens obviously comes out at the Mount when one visits.
Speaker 1: What do you think she should be remembered for? How
Speaker 1: do you see her legacy? You have an intimate engagement
Speaker 1: with her almost every day as you're there at the Mount.
Speaker 1: Well Edith Wharton, I would say, is and should probably
Speaker 1: best known for her enduring classics of the House of
Speaker 1: Mirth Ethan Frome, and also the Age of Innocence, which
Speaker 1: is probably her best known work. It's the one that
Speaker 1: one of the Pulitzer Prize when it was published in
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, and it hit number one on the bestseller
Speaker 1: lists again in nine following Martin Scorsese's release of his
Speaker 1: film starring Michelle Peifer and Daniel day Lewis, which is
Speaker 1: based on the novel. But Um, I would say, even
Speaker 1: though she's mostly known as a novelist, her literary legacy
Speaker 1: is actually so much bigger. Um. She wrote across many genres,
Speaker 1: including short stories to it, travel books, um, literary essays,
Speaker 1: and poetry. And her first well known and sort of
Speaker 1: I would say hit, was a book that was actually
Speaker 1: about interior design, called The Decoration of Houses. It was
Speaker 1: published in eight and it's still taught in design schools today. Um.
Speaker 1: I think she also should be remembered for taking on
Speaker 1: subject matter that I would say, even today might seem audacious.
Speaker 1: She her books and her novels addressed issues ranging from
Speaker 1: euthanasia to war, um to female sexual desire, especially that
Speaker 1: of older women. And I would say that she and
Speaker 1: her works, uh, defy any easy categorization, I would say.
Speaker 1: And then of course there is um what I think
Speaker 1: she considered her most important creation, or one of her
Speaker 1: most important creations, and that is the estate that she
Speaker 1: gotad and build from the Berkshires, the Mount Um. And
Speaker 1: she was as proud of that as any of the
Speaker 1: literary work which she produced. Just an exceptional legacy for sure.
Speaker 1: Now you're the executive director of the Mount. Her long
Speaker 1: time of state is you just mentioned in the Beautiful
Speaker 1: Berkshires And you used to practice law in New York?
Speaker 1: What got you interested in Edith warn and how did
Speaker 1: you come to head the Mount? Well, I thank serendipity
Speaker 1: for for my journey. Um. My last legal job was
Speaker 1: actually with a firm here in the Berkshires, and um,
Speaker 1: the partner that I was closest with Unfortunately, died of
Speaker 1: cancer while I was there, and it was it was
Speaker 1: a big moment in my life, and I took that
Speaker 1: opportunity to step away from the law and decided i'd
Speaker 1: really actually rather spend more time outdoors. And I spent
Speaker 1: the next couple of years as a sort of itinerant tradesperson.
Speaker 1: I was a carpenter, I did landscaping, I did painting, UM,
Speaker 1: just sort of odd jobs here and there and UM.
Speaker 1: But I was growing tired of the It was getting
Speaker 1: a little tiring, and I certainly wasn't making a lot
Speaker 1: of money. And a friend notified me that there was
Speaker 1: an opening here at the Mount, involved with operations, and
Speaker 1: I applied on the labor day and two I think
Speaker 1: I applied on a Friday in two thousand one, in
Speaker 1: September and started the following Monday. And I fell in
Speaker 1: love with the property. And I have never look back.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to believe that that was nearly twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. It's an exceptional story serendipity, though it might
Speaker 1: be in terms of how you got engaged. But I
Speaker 1: think the Mount is very fortunate too to have such
Speaker 1: an exceptional lawyer and committed leader of that beautiful place.
Speaker 1: You mentioned at the outset some of Edith's great literary achievements,
Speaker 1: And she wrote so many years ago, and yet her
Speaker 1: books remained so popular today. What do you think that's
Speaker 1: the case and and what does she tell us about
Speaker 1: the wider culture in terms of her time and our time. Well,
Speaker 1: when Wharton was at the peak of her career, women's
Speaker 1: rights were arguably expanding. The divorce was becoming more common,
Speaker 1: more women were entering the workforce and um, and then
Speaker 1: of course the Nineteenth Amendment was ratified in nineteen nineteen.
Speaker 1: And despite all of this scene progress, a major theme
Speaker 1: in Wharton's work is how women's options remain constrictive. Marriage
Speaker 1: was often unsatisfactory, and of course women continue to be
Speaker 1: treated unequally. And I would say that there is one
Speaker 1: thing that runs throughout her work that continues to resonate today.
Speaker 1: And another big theme was I would say, the huge
Speaker 1: divide between the enormously wealthy, the one percentags perhaps and
Speaker 1: the working class. So I don't think it's hard to
Speaker 1: draw parallels between her time and ours. And I think
Speaker 1: the themes that she addresses in her works continue to
Speaker 1: be themes that we as individuals and as a society
Speaker 1: continue to struggle with. But I think perhaps the principal
Speaker 1: reason she remains popular is because she's just a wonderful writer,
Speaker 1: and she's got memorable characters, engaging plots, beautiful language, and
Speaker 1: I would say a clean, even muscular writing style. And
Speaker 1: so her work is as has stood the test of time,
Speaker 1: and I think a century from now we will still
Speaker 1: be talking about her. It's it's so interesting and those
Speaker 1: two themes that you mentioned are certainly very much with
Speaker 1: us today. Um she lived between eighteen sixty two and
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven. What was happening then that had a
Speaker 1: great deal to say about shaping her and what she
Speaker 1: eventually would write about. Ah, that's a great question on um. Well,
Speaker 1: Wharton was born into the old money New York society
Speaker 1: uh or. By way of example, on the US Census,
Speaker 1: her father listed his occupation as a gentleman of leisure.
Speaker 1: So this was the world into which she was born.
Speaker 1: Her family belonged to a class of people who loved
Speaker 1: art but distrusted artists, and it was also a class
Speaker 1: that felt themselves under siege, particularly by the new money class.
Speaker 1: And because she was a bona fide member of this class,
Speaker 1: she knew it. She understood it warts and all. She
Speaker 1: knew it intimately, and it provided her with terrific material
Speaker 1: for her writing. UM. She was also heavily influenced by
Speaker 1: European culture as a child. Edith had spent much of
Speaker 1: her life in Europe, mainly in France, Germany and Italy,
Speaker 1: and it was there that she developed both her gifts
Speaker 1: for languages, but also a deep appreciation for beauty. UH.
Speaker 1: She loved art, architecture, and literature, and this is where
Speaker 1: all of those passions were ignited. UM. I would also
Speaker 1: say that she had an incredible intellectual curiosity and that
Speaker 1: drove her to read just an extraordinary range of books,
Speaker 1: not just literature, but she also was fascinated by science
Speaker 1: and philosophy and religion, and her library here can Mount
Speaker 1: actually includes multiple copies of books by Darwin, whose works
Speaker 1: and theories were of course notly debated in the day. UM.
Speaker 1: So those were some of the forces in terms of
Speaker 1: events that shaped your life. I would say World War
Speaker 1: One was perhaps the most influential. UM. From nineteen fourteen
Speaker 1: to nineteen eighteen, she wasn't was in France, in Paris,
Speaker 1: and she devoted herself to creating a complex, really extensive
Speaker 1: network with charitable and humanitarian organizations that included work rooms
Speaker 1: for the unemployed, convalescent homes for people with buerrtulosis. UM,
Speaker 1: she created hospitals for refugees and schools for children and UM.
Speaker 1: She also wrote extensively about the war. She was one
Speaker 1: of a handful journalists that was actually allowed to h
Speaker 1: report from the front lines. And her work was so
Speaker 1: extensive that UM in nineteen sixteen she was actually awarded
Speaker 1: the French lesion of loner UM. And I would say
Speaker 1: mentioned one last thing that I would say was a
Speaker 1: big force on her life. UM. During her lifetime there
Speaker 1: were incredible social, economic, and needed technological changes. UM. So
Speaker 1: she went from a horse and buggy era to air travel.
Speaker 1: And I would say this progress affected her deeply and
Speaker 1: can be seen in her writing. And by the time
Speaker 1: she's in the nineteen twenties, she was actually quite dismayed
Speaker 1: at what she saw as the commercialization of popular culture UM.
Speaker 1: And she wrote about this in in her novels. So
Speaker 1: in the Children, for example, she makes fun of Hollywood
Speaker 1: in the movie industry. In Hudson Riverbracted, she she goes
Speaker 1: after the publishing industry and and specifically The Pulitz Surprise.
Speaker 1: And then in Twilight Sleep, which is one of her
Speaker 1: last novels, she turns her pen Scuba modern medicine and
Speaker 1: the wonder Pills that were on the rage of the day.
Speaker 1: She was such an interesting and complicated personality, obviously, I
Speaker 1: wonder listening to your description of her and what shaped her.
Speaker 1: It sounds like she could have done any number of things.
Speaker 1: Why did she become a writer? Oh? Um, Well, as
Speaker 1: she was born a writer. I think she she had
Speaker 1: no choice but to be. I'm a writer. She was
Speaker 1: a born storyteller, So even before she could read. She
Speaker 1: writes in her memoir that she would engage in an
Speaker 1: exercise or an activity that she called making up. And
Speaker 1: so you know, at the age of three or four,
Speaker 1: um she would be observed holding a book in her
Speaker 1: hands off an upside down and she would walk back
Speaker 1: and forth and make up and create a story. Um
Speaker 1: with her mother arranged for a play date with um
Speaker 1: uh young friends, she would actually refuse them and insist
Speaker 1: that her mother play with him so that she could
Speaker 1: she could continue on making up. So the storytelling piece
Speaker 1: came to her naturally, and I think she was driven
Speaker 1: right um, which is not to say that it was easy. UM.
Speaker 1: Her family I believe was a little bit in awe
Speaker 1: of the sort of a natural and sort of driven
Speaker 1: nature of Edith to too right, and they ordered her
Speaker 1: as a young girl. In fact, UM Wharton's first book,
Speaker 1: first published book, was the book of poems that she
Speaker 1: wrote at the age of sixteen, and her mother actually
Speaker 1: undertook the private publication of that. So I think they
Speaker 1: were quite proud of her. But once she was a
Speaker 1: woman of a certain age, where the expectations were that
Speaker 1: she was to marry and settle down, UM, I would say,
Speaker 1: the tables turned for her, and Um, at the age
Speaker 1: of twenty one, she is engaged to a young man.
Speaker 1: The engagement was broken for very complicated reasons, and the
Speaker 1: newspapers actually report that the engagement was called off because
Speaker 1: Wharton was quote an ambitious authoress and too intellectual, and
Speaker 1: that was a huge humiliation for her. UM. And as
Speaker 1: she even as she became you know, critically and a
Speaker 1: critical and popular success, UM, she was often not taken
Speaker 1: seriously as a writer. She was frequently dismissed as either
Speaker 1: just a pale imitation of Henry James, who was a
Speaker 1: good friend or as someone who's worked with trivial because
Speaker 1: they weren't concerned with the rich. And this was despite
Speaker 1: her having often written stories with working class protagonists. UM.
Speaker 1: I would say at least a third of her works
Speaker 1: deal with people who are not of the wealthy class.
Speaker 1: Sounds like some of the criticisms that were lobbed against
Speaker 1: her continue in varying ways today against women. That criticism
Speaker 1: of being just too intellectual strikes me as one for sure. UM.
Speaker 1: And I just love that image that you painted of
Speaker 1: her as a child holding a book upside down, uh
Speaker 1: and storytelling as as she's pacing around. So I think
Speaker 1: you're so right. It does sound so much like she
Speaker 1: was born to be a writer. Speaking of her work,
Speaker 1: The Age of Innocence celebrated its hundredth anniversary last year.
Speaker 1: What's the story behind that book? For listeners who are
Speaker 1: not familiar with it, The Age of Innocence was written
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty, after World War One, and um after
Speaker 1: the death of many of Warton's closest friends, including Henry
Speaker 1: James and Teddy Roosevelt. UM. And it is set uh,
Speaker 1: not in the twenties, but in the eighteen seventies and
Speaker 1: it is I would say, both um homage too and
Speaker 1: a critique of the society that you grew up in.
Speaker 1: Um And it was a book that she didn't want
Speaker 1: to write. Her previous book was a war, a war novel,
Speaker 1: and it had the misfortune of coming out just as
Speaker 1: the war was ending and the public was basically sick
Speaker 1: of war stories and um And but she wanted to
Speaker 1: write another one, and her publishers said, no, we need
Speaker 1: another sort of House of Mirth, like uh, the novel
Speaker 1: of matters. And so she needed money she by that
Speaker 1: time and purchased a couple of houses in France and
Speaker 1: um and so she actually penn The House of Mirth
Speaker 1: in I think a little less than a year and um.
Speaker 1: In many ways, I would say it is the most
Speaker 1: autobiographical novel. And it involves three major characters. It's kind
Speaker 1: of a love triangle story. There's a gentleman now and Archer,
Speaker 1: and then there is the very mysterious and somewhat socially
Speaker 1: disgraced because she's divorced, Countess Elena Lenska. And then there's
Speaker 1: Maywell and the sort of perfect um product of New
Speaker 1: York society woman who new and is expected to wed
Speaker 1: and UM. Anyway, it's a it's it's basically a love
Speaker 1: story and it but again it is in many ways autobiographical. UM.
Speaker 1: And I'll just draw maybe attention to a couple of
Speaker 1: the reasons why I say this. Um. Ellen Olenska is
Speaker 1: probably the most obvious person based on Edith Wharton's character.
Speaker 1: Ellen and Edith were both very comfortable and felt at
Speaker 1: home in Europe Um, not just because they grew up there,
Speaker 1: but also because they were both very sophisticated women. They
Speaker 1: were equally at home with fashion and as well as
Speaker 1: part um. Both Ellen Olenska and Edith Wharton had a
Speaker 1: husband who seized their fortune and spent it on the
Speaker 1: mistresses um. In the novel, one of the reasons the
Speaker 1: Lenska has returned to New York is because her husband
Speaker 1: um uh Is has embezzled her money and was also
Speaker 1: neporiously unfaithful. That fits that description also fits edith husband
Speaker 1: Peddy to a te um, he behaved very badly. He
Speaker 1: embezzled about over fifty thou dollars of the money, which
Speaker 1: would be about one and a half million dollars today,
Speaker 1: and speculated poorly in the stock market, and also purchased
Speaker 1: the house in Boston, the House of Mistress Um, and
Speaker 1: both in the novel and Warton in real life, ultimately
Speaker 1: they leave their husbands and live alone in Paris and
Speaker 1: apartments where um the pastas that a believe, and they
Speaker 1: both entertained a steay stream of Frenchise society. So there
Speaker 1: are very many similarities between Wharton and eleanor Leinster. But
Speaker 1: there are also similarities between Wharton and Newland Archer, and
Speaker 1: Newland represents who Warton might have been had she remained
Speaker 1: in New York and not escaped all of the bonds
Speaker 1: and shackles of the expectations that her class put upon her.
Speaker 1: Um the young Newland Archer and Edith are both undeniably similar.
Speaker 1: They both are very much a part of society. They
Speaker 1: attend the opera, they go to dinners and balls, they
Speaker 1: participate in all the activities of old New York um Um.
Speaker 1: And despite these useful represemblances, their adult lives take very
Speaker 1: different has. By the end of the novel, knew in
Speaker 1: this fifty seven and that's the same age Wharton was
Speaker 1: when she was writing it. And this new one is
Speaker 1: very different from from Wharton. The office Uh he is
Speaker 1: no longer friends with writers. He no longer is dreaming
Speaker 1: of making art and intellectual conversation central to his life. Uh. Instead,
Speaker 1: just like everyone else in his social circle, he is
Speaker 1: governed by convention in the following tradition, and in the
Speaker 1: last pages of the novel, as he reflects back on
Speaker 1: his life, he realizes that he is sunk deep into
Speaker 1: a rut. And Wharton, on the other hand, avoided all
Speaker 1: of these ruts because her insatiable curiosity never left her
Speaker 1: and um and chief at the end of her life
Speaker 1: is in Paris and in the South of France, where
Speaker 1: artists and literature and clever conversation are just a steady
Speaker 1: diet in their life. And this is probably more information
Speaker 1: than you want, but I did want to spend a
Speaker 1: little moment on May Uh the betrothed to Newland. And
Speaker 1: May is the woman that high society included including Wharton's husband,
Speaker 1: probably expected and wanted wanted Warton to be. And while
Speaker 1: for many years he was able to pull off the
Speaker 1: dual role dual role of dutiful wife and vestselling author,
Speaker 1: eventually it became too much for her and she abandons
Speaker 1: her wifely duties and leaves Teddy and ultimately divorces him.
Speaker 1: So The Age of Innocence, I think, is a novel
Speaker 1: that can be read many times, and each time you
Speaker 1: read it you'll get something different. And one of the
Speaker 1: I think most brilliant aspects of the novel is that
Speaker 1: it is written from the perspective of the male Newland archer.
Speaker 1: And as you read the novel, perhaps the first time
Speaker 1: you read it you don't realize it, but certainly on
Speaker 1: the second and third reading, you realize that he is
Speaker 1: a completely unreliable narrator and um and you can't at
Speaker 1: one he he he is misinterpreting signs and clues that
Speaker 1: that come before him as the platform folds, and in
Speaker 1: many ways is completely clueless. And the women in the
Speaker 1: story who are portrayed on the first breath is perhaps
Speaker 1: lesser characters are actually the brilliant ones. Well, speaking of brilliant, Susan,
Speaker 1: I feel like you're brilliant, professor of literature with that
Speaker 1: extraordinary answer, and it is enough, I think uh listeners
Speaker 1: will agree to have us all go out and pick
Speaker 1: up The Age of Innocence and read it, either for
Speaker 1: the first time or for the second or third time.
Speaker 1: As you pointed out Seneca has one hundred women to hear.
Speaker 1: Will be back after the short break. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: the mount a little bit, where you spend so much
Speaker 1: of your time. Warton designed and built it in nineteen
Speaker 1: o two for people who haven't been there, and I
Speaker 1: have recently been there for the second time, and it
Speaker 1: is just a beautiful and remarkable place. Tell us how
Speaker 1: she made it happen, how it reflects who she is, because,
Speaker 1: just speaking for myself, when you walk through that front door,
Speaker 1: you walk into a world onto itself in terms of
Speaker 1: its beauty and everything it represents about her. She came
Speaker 1: to the Virture's Um. This is probably one good thing
Speaker 1: that her husband Teddy did, is Teddy's family actually summered
Speaker 1: in the Berkshire's and that is how she came to
Speaker 1: to know to know the Virture's Um. Wharton's family watering
Speaker 1: their their their summer place was in Newport. And while
Speaker 1: Wharton loved Newport as a child when she was free
Speaker 1: to play tennis or swim, or sale or ride, once
Speaker 1: she was a young married woman, uh the again, the
Speaker 1: expectations of entertainment either being entertained or to entertained proved
Speaker 1: too great for her and UM, and she was all
Speaker 1: of her time that she had hoped to devote to
Speaker 1: writing was taken up with societal duties. And so in
Speaker 1: nineteen o one she and Teddy decide to leave Newport
Speaker 1: and Wharton comes to the Berkshire's Uh they find a
Speaker 1: beautiful one acre property which had been previously farmland, and
Speaker 1: they purchase it. We've got a wonderful photograph, the historic
Speaker 1: photograph of Petty and Edith, and they were both huge
Speaker 1: dog lovers, and they're like three little dogs and they're
Speaker 1: all standing on this rocky mound pointing as if this
Speaker 1: is they're they're they're telling the person who's taking the photograph,
Speaker 1: this is the place, this is what where we are
Speaker 1: going to build our home and UM. Wharton had a
Speaker 1: huge interest in both architecture and landscape design, and so
Speaker 1: she was involved heavily in every aspect of the construction
Speaker 1: of the State and Um. She intended that it would
Speaker 1: be a home that would meet all of her needs,
Speaker 1: both as a designer, as a gardener, as a hostess,
Speaker 1: and most importantly as a writer. So one of the
Speaker 1: most distinguishing features of the mount there are there are
Speaker 1: a few. One is that it is built far far
Speaker 1: away from the roads. It's not even visible from any
Speaker 1: of the main highways or arteries. And that's because she
Speaker 1: really wanted it to be a retreat. It was not
Speaker 1: built to be a symbol of her wealth, though at
Speaker 1: that point she was a very successful writer and her
Speaker 1: wealth was considerable. It was meant to be a place
Speaker 1: where she could retire from society, should she choose. It
Speaker 1: was also it's also a very it's a very beautiful
Speaker 1: and elegant house, but in terms of the number of
Speaker 1: people that it will accommodate, it's actually quite small. The
Speaker 1: dining room is designed to seat six, and there are
Speaker 1: only two guest bedrooms. And so it was again it's
Speaker 1: primary purpose was to entertain at most your most intimate friends,
Speaker 1: and then also to give her a place where she
Speaker 1: could create. Um. She was very proud of the mount Um.
Speaker 1: She there's a nineteen o five nineteen o six letter
Speaker 1: that she writes to her lover Morton Fullerton, where she
Speaker 1: actually says, and I know this line my heart, but
Speaker 1: quote decidedly, I'm a better landscape gardener than novelist. And
Speaker 1: this place, every line of which is my own work.
Speaker 1: Far surpasses the House of Mirth. And just to put
Speaker 1: that in context, the House of Mirth was the runaway
Speaker 1: bestseller of nineteen o five. It was published I think
Speaker 1: in October, and in the remaining months of the year
Speaker 1: it out sold by enormous amounts every other novel that
Speaker 1: had been published that that in that in that year.
Speaker 1: So um. The Wharton's unfortunately only lived at the Mount
Speaker 1: for ten years, but it was a transformational decade for
Speaker 1: for Edith. Um. She had many professional triumphs and much
Speaker 1: emotional turmoil. Um Uh. It was during her period of
Speaker 1: the Amount that Um Teddy's mental instability really began to
Speaker 1: take hold. I think um it was probably not easy
Speaker 1: for Teddy to be Edith Wharton's husband. He was not
Speaker 1: her intellectual peer and um and he had really not
Speaker 1: a lot to bring to the table. And as she
Speaker 1: grew more and more financially successful and independent, I think
Speaker 1: he um, he began to resent it and uh, and
Speaker 1: that resentment began to manifests itself in ways that we're
Speaker 1: not not healthy or good for either either of them. Well,
Speaker 1: she clearly thought seriously, and that description that you you posed,
Speaker 1: that comparative with the House of mirth to her own house.
Speaker 1: She cared about interior design, clearly, she cared about gardens,
Speaker 1: she cared about decorations. She wrote about it. How would
Speaker 1: you describe her design philosophy if she had one. Oh,
Speaker 1: she certainly had a design philosophy. And Um, what she
Speaker 1: was advocating for, and it is the basic premise of
Speaker 1: her book, The decoration of Houses is a return to
Speaker 1: what she termed as the classical style that you would
Speaker 1: find in Europe, characterized by symmetry, balance and proportion. Those
Speaker 1: were the three the three main tenets of any good design.
Speaker 1: And um, you had to pay close attention to how
Speaker 1: houses and gardens were to be used. Um. She grew
Speaker 1: up in the Victorian era. Uh. And then the I
Speaker 1: would say that Victorian era was characterized by houses that
Speaker 1: were over upholstered, over draper, read full of bric a
Speaker 1: brac and um. And they also gave rise to what
Speaker 1: we're sort of very ostentatious properties of the newly rich
Speaker 1: who built their houses to basically show and flaunt their wealth. Um.
Speaker 1: And they the big houses of the guild of there
Speaker 1: of the Berkshire cottages, I would say many of them,
Speaker 1: uh put a greater value in how showy they were
Speaker 1: versus how functional they were. And for Wharton, UM, she
Speaker 1: was always very cumily attuned to the fact that houses
Speaker 1: are in fact, first and foremost meant to be lived in. UM.
Speaker 1: She also felt that the house, the gardens, and the
Speaker 1: landscape should all be in harmony, and that the transition
Speaker 1: between one and the other should be gradual. But the
Speaker 1: harmonious component was not unlike a great work of art,
Speaker 1: and that is how she viewed house and landscape design.
Speaker 1: Beautifully said, Now, you've had a major impact on the
Speaker 1: mountain in many ways, but one was certainly to retire
Speaker 1: its debt, which was no small feat UM in two
Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen. That was really extraordinary. UM. And you
Speaker 1: have managed to get some of Wharton's books returned to
Speaker 1: the library where they have their special place. Now tell
Speaker 1: us about that and why those books are so important. Oh,
Speaker 1: another wonderful question, long, Thank you, UM. The books. Yes,
Speaker 1: we have all that what we believed to be UM,
Speaker 1: perhaps not all, but the majority of what remains of
Speaker 1: Wharton's own original library. It's about volumes. UM. We know
Speaker 1: that her her full library was actually far more extensive
Speaker 1: than that. UM. She bequeathed it to Godsons. Half of
Speaker 1: it ended up being destroyed in the war as it
Speaker 1: was waiting on the docks of London to be shipped
Speaker 1: to America for safety. But the other half um was
Speaker 1: bequeathed to the son of Sir Kenneth Clark, the great historian,
Speaker 1: and they sort of languished and were protected throughout the
Speaker 1: war in Saltwood Castle, which was out in the English countryside.
Speaker 1: And and thanks they ended up in the hands of
Speaker 1: a bookseller who became so fascinated with Edith Wharton that
Speaker 1: he spent probably thirty years of his life trying to
Speaker 1: continue to collect what I would call the orphans and
Speaker 1: the the strays that had been perhaps loaned by the
Speaker 1: Clarks out to other people. And he tried. He was
Speaker 1: very keen on making sure that the collection remained together
Speaker 1: as a whole. And the reason why he was so
Speaker 1: keen on that is because Wharton was a very active reader,
Speaker 1: and she she annotated her books, She wrote notes in
Speaker 1: the fly leaves, she underscored, she used exclamations. When you
Speaker 1: look at all of these markings, it's like you are
Speaker 1: reading the book with her alongside her, and it just
Speaker 1: tells you so much. UM. She also the books. Many
Speaker 1: of the books are gifts from some of her closest friends, UH,
Speaker 1: for example Teddy Roosevelt and Henry James, and their infamite
Speaker 1: inscriptions as they gifted books to her UH tells us
Speaker 1: a lot of insights into the nature of their relationship.
Speaker 1: For example, how much humor UH there was in the
Speaker 1: kind of repartee that Wharton had, particularly with Henry James,
Speaker 1: but also also with Teddy Roosevelt. UM and uh. And
Speaker 1: so we really consider the books as um as the
Speaker 1: heart and soul of the property. And they also attest
Speaker 1: to the incredible breadth of Wharton's curiosity. UM. In addition
Speaker 1: to literature, gardening, travel, UM, there are numerous volumes on history, philosophy, religion,
Speaker 1: and science UM and it and the breadth of the books,
Speaker 1: I mean, we have books that she was given as
Speaker 1: a child, that were given to her by her brothers
Speaker 1: um uh you know, for Christmas. And then we also
Speaker 1: have the books that she was reading, you know, within
Speaker 1: months of her death. And we know that because the
Speaker 1: publication date of the book was, you know, just two
Speaker 1: months prior to her prior to her dying. And UM,
Speaker 1: so it's been just an incredible tool in in deepening
Speaker 1: our understanding of what um I would say, her personality
Speaker 1: practically springs from the pages and uh and so it's
Speaker 1: just a wealth of information for the next generation of
Speaker 1: scholars and and storytellers. And we actually are regularly welcoming
Speaker 1: scholars who come to peer through the pages to see
Speaker 1: what what little timbits of information they might be able
Speaker 1: to bleam. It's really a very very special part of
Speaker 1: the house. To see those annotated books and to read
Speaker 1: the inscriptions, you do feel like you're learning something that
Speaker 1: nobody else knows. It's really an insight into her. So
Speaker 1: congratulations on being able to get those books returned so
Speaker 1: that they could be at the mount today. We are
Speaker 1: closely running out of time, and I wanted to just
Speaker 1: ask about one of the aspects of her life that's
Speaker 1: really less well known. You alluded several times to her
Speaker 1: years in France. She lived there before World War One,
Speaker 1: she worked with the Red Cross during the war. She
Speaker 1: was even awarded the French Legion of Honor. Um what
Speaker 1: was it about her devotion to France and what it
Speaker 1: meant to her? Well, Um, I think the love of
Speaker 1: France probably was seated deeply in Edith when she was
Speaker 1: a child. So from the age of four to ten,
Speaker 1: the Whartons spent most of their time traveling around Europe. Uh.
Speaker 1: And she spent a great deal of time living in
Speaker 1: France as well as Germany and Italy. And she was
Speaker 1: fluent in French, and she was deeply engrossed in and
Speaker 1: I would say influenced by French literature. So her library
Speaker 1: includes all the French greats from the balls Act of
Speaker 1: Voltaire um and so huge impact there. UM. But I
Speaker 1: think it actually was probably um World War One that
Speaker 1: really cemented her love for France and the French people.
Speaker 1: When the war breaks out, she's actually in England looking
Speaker 1: at a property to possibly purchase, and um, there's some
Speaker 1: just really beautiful letters that talks about the anguish that
Speaker 1: she feels because she's unable to return because the borders
Speaker 1: have closed and uh. And it takes her several weeks
Speaker 1: or maybe even several months before she's actually admitted back
Speaker 1: into the country, and she's just absolutely horrified by the
Speaker 1: by the carnage and the and the devastation and um.
Speaker 1: And then of course nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen, she
Speaker 1: throws herself into humanitarian work on the part of France
Speaker 1: and the French, and I think UM, I think that's
Speaker 1: where her her love and her loyalties shifted. And I
Speaker 1: also think she never was that comfortable in the United States.
Speaker 1: She she hated Um, she hated New York, she thought
Speaker 1: it was deplorably. She did not feel accepted in Boston,
Speaker 1: where she was being too fashionable. And she just loved
Speaker 1: the layout and the architecture and the sensibilities of the
Speaker 1: European cities, at particularly Paris. And so I think that's
Speaker 1: why UM. And then of course towards the I would say,
Speaker 1: in the latter third of her life after the war,
Speaker 1: Um she is continuing to write prolifically, but I would
Speaker 1: say her first passion at that point becomes gardening. And
Speaker 1: she purchases this amazing ancient wreck of the chateau on
Speaker 1: the Riviera, and Um purchases an entire hillside that goes
Speaker 1: with it, and then throws herself into into gardening, and
Speaker 1: is um credited in part with actually creating the Mediterranean garden.
Speaker 1: The English were starting to settle on the south of France.
Speaker 1: The French had no particular or interested in gardens, but
Speaker 1: the English had a passion for it, and so she
Speaker 1: developed a small group of very close friends and they
Speaker 1: took the Mediterranean Garden to tell They really put it
Speaker 1: on the map as a as a as a as
Speaker 1: a genre of gardening. UM. So that that that also,
Speaker 1: I think was important. And I believe she felt that
Speaker 1: France um where women and men engaged in society and
Speaker 1: conversation together. Uh, that France had more respect for women
Speaker 1: and educated them actually better than America did. And so
Speaker 1: I think she felt in some ways that the French
Speaker 1: were in were superior to to the Americans in terms
Speaker 1: of how they organized and structured their lives. Well, I
Speaker 1: regret that we can't keep talking about Edith for hours more,
Speaker 1: because she is both a fascinating figure and you are
Speaker 1: wonderfully descriptive in giving us insights into who she was
Speaker 1: and what she did. Before we let you go, Susan,
Speaker 1: how can listeners visit them out? Um? Do you have
Speaker 1: ongoing events and programs? And if you do, how can
Speaker 1: we learn about them? There are numerous ways you can
Speaker 1: experience the site. You can take a guided tour with
Speaker 1: a person, you can take a self guided tour, or
Speaker 1: you can um or you can take an audio tour UM.
Speaker 1: We have a beautiful cafe on our terrace which you
Speaker 1: can enjoy sort of good food and incredible views. And
Speaker 1: then we also have just UM an ongoing roster of
Speaker 1: programs UH that include a sculpture exhibit across about fifty
Speaker 1: acres thirty large scaled contemporary pieces. We have concerts regularly. UM.
Speaker 1: We often have theatrical performances. But again, the best way
Speaker 1: to UM to figure out and plan your trip is
Speaker 1: to visit our website and to sign up for our
Speaker 1: e newsletter, and you could also follow us on social media.
Speaker 1: We have a hashtag at the Mount Lennox. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Susan Whistler for this just wonderful conversation,
Speaker 1: your great ability to enable us to come to know
Speaker 1: and be much smarter about that great literary giant Edith Wharton.
Speaker 1: And thank you too for what you've been doing over
Speaker 1: the last many years to make the Mount come alive
Speaker 1: and be that very special place that it is. It's
Speaker 1: so great to have had you with us today. Thank you, Milan,
Speaker 1: Thank you. This has been lots of fun and I
Speaker 1: hope I haven't talked too much now it's been terrific.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I learned so much about Edith
Speaker 1: Wharton and talking to the remarkable Susan Whistler. Here are
Speaker 1: three things I took from that conversation. First, Edith Wharton
Speaker 1: remains popular today, more than a hundred years after publication
Speaker 1: of her most famous novels and No Wonder. She writes
Speaker 1: about women trying to find their way in a culture
Speaker 1: that wants to constrain them, and about the expectations are
Speaker 1: friends and family place on all of us. Her novels
Speaker 1: are compelling and timeless. Second, it's also worth looking at
Speaker 1: the other side of Edith Wharton, the house and garden designer.
Speaker 1: Check out a copy of her eight seven design Manual,
Speaker 1: The Decoration of Houses, for guidelines that never go out
Speaker 1: of style. Finally, if you're on the East Coast, try
Speaker 1: to visit The Mount, the magnificent estate that Edith Wharton
Speaker 1: built in Lenox, Massachusetts. Besides touring the house and grounds,
Speaker 1: you can enjoy nature walks, lectures, sculpture, exhibits, music, and
Speaker 1: even lunch on the beautiful Terrorists. To learn more, visit
Speaker 1: Edith Wharton dot org. Tune in next time to hear
Speaker 1: about our next featured woman and discover why she's one
Speaker 1: of Seneca's one Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women
Speaker 1: to Hear is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast
Speaker 1: Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner
Speaker 1: PNG Have a Great Day.