1
00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,559
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

2
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 2: US lawmakers have called on Nigeria to repeal sharia lag

3
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,040
Speaker 2: in the country's north as they probe US President Donald

4
00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 2: Trump's unfounded allegations of Christian persecution in the country.

5
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:26,320
Speaker 3: They're killing record numbers of Christians in Nigeria and they

6
00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,840
Speaker 3: have other countries very bad also. You know that that

7
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 3: part of the world very bad and killing the Christians

8
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 3: and killing them in very large numbers.

9
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,280
Speaker 4: We're not going to allow that to happen.

10
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 2: This follows previous unfounded claims from the US administration of

11
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,960
Speaker 2: a white genocide in South Africa, with thousands.

12
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,800
Speaker 5: Of stories talking about it. Surely we have documentaries, we

13
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,640
Speaker 5: have news stores. I could show you a couple of things,

14
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 5: and I would. I just I have to it has

15
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:57,040
Speaker 5: to be responded to.

16
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,080
Speaker 2: On today's podcast, we'll look at how Nigeria, Christians and

17
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,200
Speaker 2: white South Africans have become a pretty big issue in Washington,

18
00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 2: d C. And what impact it's having on US Africa relations.

19
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,759
Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abisaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

20
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,839
Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

21
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,960
Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

22
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 2: can provide. Now, joining us today is our deputy Managing

23
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,279
Speaker 2: editor for the Middle East and Africa, that's Neil Munshi,

24
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,319
Speaker 2: and also our South Africa government reporter that is Sembile Stele,

25
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,759
Speaker 2: who both of them have been covering this extensively. So

26
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,319
Speaker 2: thank you both for joining us this week. Neil, maybe

27
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 2: we just start with you if we take a look

28
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 2: at what the US Congress committee was investigating, was intended

29
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 2: on investigating, how did we get to this point? Give

30
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 2: us a few of the steps into how we got here.

31
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,160
Speaker 1: So, the idea that Christians have been persecuted in Nigeria

32
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 1: has been floating around evangelical circles, especially in the US,

33
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 1: for many years. It goes back to Trump's first term

34
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, there is also within the Nigerian

35
00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 1: Christian community some agitation about this, that Christians are being

36
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,480
Speaker 1: persecuted in the country, et cetera. And it's been picked

37
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,520
Speaker 1: up by members of the Trump coalition and made its

38
00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 1: way to the President's desk at some point. I think

39
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: the background here is important because Nigeria has an incredibly

40
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: bad problem with insecurity across the country, and just to

41
00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 1: put it in context, Nigeria is about two hundred and

42
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 1: some million people, roughly split between Christians and Muslims. Christians

43
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: mostly live in the South, Muslims mostly live in the North.

44
00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:54,000
Speaker 1: Everyone in Nigeria, regardless of faith, is a victim of insecurity, terrorism,

45
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 1: armed gangs of bandits, communal violence, you name it, and

46
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 1: it tends not to be religiously denominated. That's kind of

47
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 1: the context here.

48
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 2: Right, And we should probably say, you spent quite a

49
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,119
Speaker 2: lot of time living in the country. Can you talk

50
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,239
Speaker 2: about maybe what the reaction from what you know has

51
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 2: been from Nigerians to this whole entire spotlight from the

52
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,360
Speaker 2: US administration being on the country in this way.

53
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 1: When you hear from ordinary Nigerians, it would be we

54
00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 1: have an incredibly bad insecurity problem, and it is an issue.

55
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 1: But it's not government persecution of Christians. It's not even

56
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:41,880
Speaker 1: that Christians are disproportionately victims of crime or murder or attacks.

57
00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,680
Speaker 1: It's that the government, successive governments going back fifteen twenty

58
00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,920
Speaker 1: years have done very little to nothing to address the

59
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 1: insecurity problem that swallowed the country. This includes kidnapping for ransom,

60
00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, arm bandits on motorcycles with AK forty seven.

61
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 4: Listeners might have heard of from Boko.

62
00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 1: Haram and affiliated groups that are mostly in the northeast

63
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 1: of the country and mostly impact the Muslims who mainly

64
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:10,440
Speaker 1: live up there.

65
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 2: Tim BILLI can you jump in here, because if we

66
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 2: think about some of the allegations that we've heard from

67
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,039
Speaker 2: President Trump, it's been quite different in South Africa, but

68
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 2: of course we do want to talk about the ways

69
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 2: in which he is still targeting some African countries. Last

70
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,159
Speaker 2: year we spoke about South Africa and President Trump. What

71
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 2: impact have his most recent allegations had here in the

72
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 2: country if we talk about ordinary South Africans and even

73
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 2: the South African administration.

74
00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 6: So I would say maybe just to pick up on

75
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 6: Neil's point, is that what South Africa has undatedly been

76
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 6: battling to deal with for the longest time, and even

77
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 6: the president he conceded us right when President Sirama Posa

78
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,200
Speaker 6: met with President Trump on the Oval Office last year,

79
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 6: is that South Africa's issue is crime that affects every

80
00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 6: single aspects of daily life, much the same way that

81
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 6: insecurity does in Nigeria, and it's something that is indiscriminate.

82
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,600
Speaker 4: But in fact, if you do want to bring it.

83
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 6: To the metrics, it disproportionately affects young black men in

84
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 6: the main when you're looking at the murders, and we

85
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,800
Speaker 6: need to talk about these members because they're important in

86
00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 6: the context of the claim that's been made falsely so

87
00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,920
Speaker 6: by the Trump administration that the white minority in the country,

88
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 6: particularly farmers, are being targeted. There are victims of this

89
00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,160
Speaker 6: kind of persecution that we're seeing.

90
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 4: And so that's what we saw unfolding for most of

91
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:29,040
Speaker 4: last year.

92
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 6: Even when the South African government has tried to clarify

93
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,919
Speaker 6: that it's not the case that there are no white

94
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 6: Africanas as it were, being targeted, they still offer this

95
00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 6: so called refugee program. We saw hundreds of African and

96
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 6: South Africans leaving on a charter a jet to go

97
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,840
Speaker 6: and resettle in the US. And by the way, since then,

98
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,279
Speaker 6: we've not heard really great things about the living conditions

99
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 6: about those South Africans that have left, many of them

100
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 6: so that they're living in very cramped conditions and hotels,

101
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,719
Speaker 6: they're struggling to find work. It's quite a tedious bureaucratic

102
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 6: process to get them to live the life that I

103
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,520
Speaker 6: think they would have anticipated that they would be.

104
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,600
Speaker 4: Living in the US. That's the one impact of it.

105
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 6: The other major concern around the growing tensions that we

106
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,039
Speaker 6: saw last year and that have been somewhat sustained between

107
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,560
Speaker 6: Pretoria and Washington is the tariffs, the thirty percent tariff.

108
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 4: That was imposed on South Africa.

109
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 6: When we're looking at the export data from the year

110
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,000
Speaker 6: twenty twenty five, the first two quarters were strong. This

111
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,279
Speaker 6: was obviously before the liberation tablets came into effect. But

112
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,039
Speaker 6: what did happen when they did come rather when they

113
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,920
Speaker 6: were postponed? There was a ninety day pause, and during

114
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,800
Speaker 6: that ninety day pause, we saw exporters exporting a higher

115
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,279
Speaker 6: volume than usual and that's kind of given a cushion

116
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,279
Speaker 6: to the final export datas which are in the main

117
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,600
Speaker 6: Not to say that there has not been a massive

118
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 6: impact on exporters the agricultural sector in the main, but

119
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 6: it's been somewhat muted and offset by a number of

120
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,159
Speaker 6: other things that are happening. Maybe then, just the last

121
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 6: point to make again linking to crime, some of the things.

122
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 6: One of the things that has been a deterrent to

123
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,320
Speaker 6: tourists coming to South Africa is the experience of some

124
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,599
Speaker 6: that they have experienced really violent crime against to the

125
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 6: point that it happens, it affects everyone in the country.

126
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 6: When we're looking at South Africa's tourism data, obviously, like

127
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 6: every other tourist destination in the world, there's been a

128
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 6: somewhat of a slow down or a cooling in terms

129
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,640
Speaker 6: of tourists since the COVID period.

130
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 4: In South Africa is no different to that.

131
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,880
Speaker 6: In terms of a lot of the countries that come

132
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,800
Speaker 6: to South Africa, we've not seen them return to the

133
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 6: pre COVID levels, with the exception of two countries funny enough,

134
00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 6: that being Australia and the UK last year when we

135
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 6: look at the final figures. So whatever the rhetorica has

136
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 6: been coming from the Trump administration with the false allegations

137
00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 6: that they've been making, it's not been a determined at

138
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 6: least that's what the numbers are selling us in terms

139
00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 6: of US citizens that are looking to come to South

140
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 6: Africa for the purposes of tourism and leisure.

141
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,920
Speaker 1: One thing I think that's important to point out about

142
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,800
Speaker 1: the South Africa example of a Nigerian example is while

143
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: they're rooted in this sort of you know, reality of

144
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 1: insecurity issues in those countries, the main root of it

145
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,360
Speaker 1: is in US domestic politics. Right, so two strains of

146
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: kind of Trumpian politics, White grievance politics and the evangelical

147
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,040
Speaker 1: Christian community in the US, which forms the bedrock of

148
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:24,200
Speaker 1: Trump's bace. And in both cases, this kind of conspiracy

149
00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 1: theorizing came up through those two political bases, and Trump

150
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:35,359
Speaker 1: has latched onto them in office to give those communities

151
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: what they want. It's a pretty canny political move back

152
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:40,480
Speaker 1: in the US.

153
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,760
Speaker 2: Can I asked then, Neil, what do officials think is

154
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,880
Speaker 2: behind it? Do they think it is, as you say,

155
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,679
Speaker 2: rooted in US domestic politics, potentially it's about the mid

156
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 2: term elections or do they think it's potentially about something more?

157
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 1: No, I mean you can see from even public statements

158
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,240
Speaker 1: from I mean particularly in South Africa more than Nigeria.

159
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 1: I don't think it has something to do with the midterms.

160
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,520
Speaker 1: This stuff came up last year, right very soon into

161
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,400
Speaker 1: his first term, well before the midterms, so I don't

162
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: think it's linked to that. But I think it's clear

163
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,920
Speaker 1: that it's linked to these kind of US domestic issues.

164
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,600
Speaker 1: The thing is how the countries have responded, and like

165
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 1: Stambilee said, both countries have acknowledged these insecurity issues and

166
00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: what Nigeria has done that I think is a bit

167
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,960
Speaker 1: different than what South Africa has done. Those Stimbula can

168
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,840
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, is they've kind of used

169
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,520
Speaker 1: it as an opportunity to ask the Trump administration for

170
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,760
Speaker 1: help in addressing the insecurity issues. So we've seen US

171
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:45,040
Speaker 1: military trainers, US intelligence sharing to target the Jihadis and

172
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 1: to some extent, the armed bandit groups in the country.

173
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,560
Speaker 1: But again, they're doing that while not conceding or admitting

174
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,439
Speaker 1: that there is persecution of Christians in the country. They're

175
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 1: saying very plainly that there's not persecution of Christians in

176
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 1: the country. The government is led by a Muslim whose

177
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,439
Speaker 1: wife is herself an evangelical pastor, so they're sort of

178
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 1: not conceding the point, but they are using it as

179
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 1: an opportunity to address the insecurity issue that they and

180
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: their predecessor governments have done very little to address.

181
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,559
Speaker 2: Hold that thought, Neil and Stambula stick with us. We're

182
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,720
Speaker 2: going to take a quick break and when we come back,

183
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 2: we'll talk more about what this means for the future

184
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 2: of these relationships between African countries and the US.

185
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:31,560
Speaker 4: We'll be right back.

186
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 2: Welcome back today. We're looking at the US attention on

187
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 2: alleged persecution in South Africa and Nigeria and the relationship

188
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 2: between the US and African countries. We have Neil Munchi

189
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,360
Speaker 2: and also Sembile Stele joining us here. Simbile, we were

190
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,719
Speaker 2: talking a bit with you before the break about the

191
00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 2: state of relations when it comes to the US and

192
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 2: South Africa. What more have we heard from the government

193
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 2: about maybe what this looks like ahead in their mind?

194
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 6: Look, I think very much is a situation where you

195
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,679
Speaker 6: have the US president kind of blowing hot and cold,

196
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,079
Speaker 6: and because it's not really clear what it is that

197
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 6: he wants from South Africa, some commentations would argue that

198
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 6: it seems like he forgets about the country at some

199
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 6: point and point and then maybe someone was persent as year, hey,

200
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 6: you remember this is happening, and then you'll kind of

201
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:25,640
Speaker 6: poke the bear again.

202
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 4: At the moment, I think things are kind of muted.

203
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 6: South Africa's position has remained that we are always open

204
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:32,880
Speaker 6: to engagement.

205
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,439
Speaker 4: But in the intervening period.

206
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 6: What we've seen, obviously is the successful hosting from South

207
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 6: Africa side of the G twenty, where the US, of course,

208
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 6: you will remember, opted out of those meetings they have

209
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,200
Speaker 6: since taken over presidency the US now of the G

210
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,720
Speaker 6: twenty and they have actively excluded South Africa from the

211
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 6: meetings which would have gotten underway in December. Interestingly enough,

212
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 6: alongside that, though, one of the things that the South

213
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 6: African government was worried about was South Africa's exclusion from

214
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,040
Speaker 6: the AGOA preferential free trade agreements. And what we've seen

215
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 6: in the past few months is a US lawmakers actually

216
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,080
Speaker 6: renewing that agreement for a year and including South Africa

217
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 6: rather not excluding it, because that was one.

218
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:14,720
Speaker 4: Of the fears.

219
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,080
Speaker 6: In addition to that South Africa not being excluded from

220
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,120
Speaker 6: that very pre preferential trade agreement, the US finally has

221
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 6: an ambassador designate to His credentials have not yet been.

222
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 4: Accepted in South Africa.

223
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,079
Speaker 6: But Leo Brent Bosel, who was a defender of the

224
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,079
Speaker 6: apartheid regime if you can call him that, in that

225
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,839
Speaker 6: period pre democracy in South Africa, he has now landed

226
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 6: on South African shows. He's been doing a number of

227
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,199
Speaker 6: meetings and to be fair in his welcoming message, he's

228
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 6: not really made many public addresses, but on social media,

229
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,240
Speaker 6: the welcoming messages that he made was very much conciliatory.

230
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 6: It didn't give any sense of hostility. And I'm here

231
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,920
Speaker 6: to cause a mess. And so America has sent someone

232
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 6: to represent them in South Africa and those engagements are underway.

233
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,679
Speaker 6: So it's kind of a mixed bag of things. That's

234
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 6: why I say it seems to blow hot and cold.

235
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 6: You never know what's going to happen next. But to

236
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 6: Neil's points earlier about the electoral base which Donald Trump

237
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,079
Speaker 6: relies on and pants to, we might see that should

238
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 6: he come under pressure in the months leading up to

239
00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,439
Speaker 6: the midterms, he might revert his attention back to South

240
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 6: Africa and kind of want to make a connection with

241
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,640
Speaker 6: that base again to say, look, I haven't forgotten about

242
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 6: these interests. You say you're worried about the persecution of

243
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 6: white South Africans in that country, So am I. That

244
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 6: may give him a little bit of closeness again to

245
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 6: that base as we move close up to the midterms. Again,

246
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,560
Speaker 6: not to say that his actions have been because of

247
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,240
Speaker 6: the midterms, but we do see that when election campaigns

248
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 6: get underway, it's one way to offset the kind of

249
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,960
Speaker 6: pressures that come to be associated with that period of

250
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 6: accountability that is associated with the midterms.

251
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Neil, how is diplomacy or how's Nigeria handling

252
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 2: diplomacy different from South Africa. Is it a different picture

253
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,040
Speaker 2: altogether or do you still see some similarities maybe to

254
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:55,840
Speaker 2: how they're reacting.

255
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's similar to a lot of

256
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,560
Speaker 1: how a lot of emergent markets, I mean, even European

257
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: allies do, which is a sort of you know, head down,

258
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: don't want to cause too much trouble, don't want to

259
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 1: get noticed too much kind of thing in case they

260
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 1: incur his wrath. So there's a bit of that. But again,

261
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,880
Speaker 1: I think just like it's important to say for both

262
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,080
Speaker 1: countries that they're not conceding the point that there's any

263
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,640
Speaker 1: validity to these conspiracy theories about persecution of whites and

264
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 1: South Africa or Christians in Nigeria, but they are attempting

265
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 1: to kind of turn the conversation to a more comfortable

266
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 1: one and one in which kind of both countries, both

267
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 1: the US and Nigeria in this case, can claim a win.

268
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 1: And so far Nigeria seems to be doing a pretty

269
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:42,960
Speaker 1: decent job at that.

270
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,720
Speaker 2: And thanks so much Neil and Stanbula again for joining

271
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 2: us at this week on the podcast, and you can

272
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,520
Speaker 2: read more of our reporting from across the region on

273
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 2: Bloomberg platforms.

274
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,200
Speaker 4: Now Here are some of.

275
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 2: The other stories we've been following across the region this week,

276
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 2: Billionaire Aliko dan Gote's oil refinery will prioritize supplying fuel

277
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,240
Speaker 2: in Nigeria, its home market, as long as it can

278
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 2: access local crude.

279
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 4: The West African.

280
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,360
Speaker 2: Nation is among the few on the continent with refineries,

281
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,600
Speaker 2: and as Africa's largest oil producer, is not reliant on

282
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,520
Speaker 2: Middle Eastern supplies. And South Africa's Central Bank is monitoring

283
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 2: the market and would take action in the event of

284
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 2: major dysfunction after the worst bond sell off since the

285
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 2: COVID pandemic, as concerns mount that soaring oil prices and

286
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 2: a weaker rand will fuel inflation. And you can follow

287
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 2: these stories across Bloomberg, including of course the Next Africa Newsletter.

288
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 2: Will put a link to that in the show notes.

289
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 2: This program was produced by Adrian.

290
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,440
Speaker 4: Bradley and Tiwa Adubio.

291
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 2: Don't forget to follow and review this show wherever you

292
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 2: usually get your podcasts, but for now I'm Jennifer's Abasacha.

293
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 2: Thanks as always for listening.