WEBVTT - The State of Modern Golf Architecture

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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<v Speaker 1>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I find my.

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<v Speaker 1>Ball in a bride egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida

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<v Speaker 1>Egg Friday fridaggg fridagg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready

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<v Speaker 1>to run off of the course.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>I am your host, Andy Johnson, and today I am

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<v Speaker 2>joined by Bob Crosby. Bob is the chairman of the

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<v Speaker 2>USGA Museum Committee, which encompasses museums at Liberty Corner and

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<v Speaker 2>Pinehurst and it's archive in Library. Bob is also one

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<v Speaker 2>of my favorite golf course architect extra minds to have

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<v Speaker 2>a discussion with, so it's it's super fun anytime you

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<v Speaker 2>get to talk to Bob. I'm so happy you joined.

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<v Speaker 2>He kind of comes at golf architecture a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>different ways than I do. He's very history based and

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<v Speaker 2>it's super It was super fun to have a chat

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<v Speaker 2>with him. Before we get to that, I got to

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<v Speaker 2>say thank you to everybody listening. We today is Monday

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<v Speaker 2>the ninth, when I'm recording this, we turned nine, so

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<v Speaker 2>nine years of Friday Golf today. It's been quite the journey.

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<v Speaker 2>And I, you know, we turned an idea into a

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<v Speaker 2>full fledged company at this point with staff and everything,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wouldn't be able to do this without all

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<v Speaker 2>of your support. It's been an incredible ride. Every every December,

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<v Speaker 2>I start to think like I never can remember the

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<v Speaker 2>exact date that we sent our first newsletter out, and

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<v Speaker 2>I always end up searching, but I always think about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, nine years ago before I was in golf

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, life then, and I'm living out a

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<v Speaker 2>dream and and I want to thank everybody that listens

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<v Speaker 2>and has supported this podcast and the newsletter and our

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<v Speaker 2>membership through the years. It's it's what's allowed us to

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<v Speaker 2>continue to grow, continue to I hope, provide better and

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<v Speaker 2>better content over the years. And I'm really thankful for

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<v Speaker 2>all of your support and making this this little idea

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<v Speaker 2>that was crazy. And I was so naive when I

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<v Speaker 2>when I started the company, I no clue what I

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<v Speaker 2>was really getting into. And the only reason it worked

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<v Speaker 2>is because people read and people listened, and and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people helped. I mean a ton of people

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<v Speaker 2>helped along the way. It would have been impossible to

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<v Speaker 2>do this without the help of a lot of talented

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<v Speaker 2>people through the years, and and help from just a conversation,

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<v Speaker 2>help from a note saying that they like their stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>they liked reading the website when not a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people were reading. All all that stuff is what's allowed

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<v Speaker 2>this thing to keep going. And I'm super excited about

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<v Speaker 2>about the future and where we're going to continue to

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<v Speaker 2>push this thing. So I really really appreciate all of

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<v Speaker 2>your help. And this time of year, between Thanksgiving and Christmas,

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<v Speaker 2>I always find myself thinking about all the people that

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<v Speaker 2>have helped me along the way. It's it's a huge

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<v Speaker 2>long list, and and you know, I want to thank

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<v Speaker 2>everybody that listens. So let's get to Bob and our conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>But first let's talk about Club Champion. They are our

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<v Speaker 2>club fitting partner, and I've been working with Club Champions

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<v Speaker 2>since like high school. I was one of their first

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<v Speaker 2>customers when it was an operation out of a garage.

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<v Speaker 2>Now they have grown into i would say the world's

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<v Speaker 2>premiere club fitting operation. They have studios all over the country,

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and twenty nationwide. When you go into Club Champion,

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<v Speaker 2>I think my favorite thing about it is that you

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<v Speaker 2>know you're going to get the best club and shaft

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<v Speaker 2>combination for you. They have basically every type of shaft,

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<v Speaker 2>every type of club that you could you know, new

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<v Speaker 2>together the best club for you. This is not just

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<v Speaker 2>a brand play. Go in there and say I want

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<v Speaker 2>to find the best club for me, and they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to do that. They have highly trained master fitters that

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<v Speaker 2>like track Man. So if you are interested in getting

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<v Speaker 2>a Club Champion fitting, go to club Champion dot com,

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<v Speaker 2>use the promo code Frida Egg and that will get

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<v Speaker 2>That's promo code Frida Egg. All right, thanks, let's get

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<v Speaker 2>to Bob Crosby. All Right, Bob, I am I'm really excited.

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<v Speaker 2>You usually talk with Garrett, but I told I stole

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<v Speaker 2>you for this episode. You're one of the people that

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<v Speaker 2>I enjoy talking golf with very very much, so I'm

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<v Speaker 2>excited to talk a little bit about golf architecture, what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening now, and also how it fits in the larger

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<v Speaker 2>context of the history of golf architecture. So I give

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<v Speaker 2>you an assignment here to come up with some three

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<v Speaker 2>points of interest and one point of maybe I don't

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<v Speaker 2>really love where this is going. And I did the

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<v Speaker 2>same on my end. So I'd love to hear you know,

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<v Speaker 2>with golf course architecture, where we're at today, what's the

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<v Speaker 2>what's the one, what's one of the things that you're

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let me just begin with the disclaimer. I don't pretend,

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<v Speaker 1>and in fact I have not seen as many of

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<v Speaker 1>the newer courses as you have, so I am pleased

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<v Speaker 1>to defer to you on a lot of that. I

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<v Speaker 1>do come to this as a historian. While you're doing

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<v Speaker 1>fancy tours of golf courses in your long black limousines,

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<v Speaker 1>staying at fancy four star hotels, I'm plugging away in

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<v Speaker 1>old issues of golf illustrated in the bowels of golf libraries.

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<v Speaker 2>So so you got that exactly right. That's that's how

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<v Speaker 2>I move around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>If it sounds if I sound resentfuless because I am.

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<v Speaker 1>But but I come at the more modern stuff from

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of historian's perspective, and I think Andy, we

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<v Speaker 1>are at a major turning point in golf architecture right now,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think that major turning point can be described

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<v Speaker 1>as what comes next after minimalism. Coor Crenshaw Doak have dominated,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the field for the last twenty five thirty years.

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<v Speaker 1>Their calling card has been a minimalist approach to golf architecture.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it, you love it, we all love it.

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<v Speaker 1>How does the next generation distinguish itself? Doak has talked

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<v Speaker 1>about how early in his career that was very important

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<v Speaker 1>to him. He decided at high point in some of

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<v Speaker 1>his other earlier courses to completely reject the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>building mounds the way Reese and his father had done

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<v Speaker 1>in so many courses. He rejected a lot of Pete

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<v Speaker 1>di'es pots and his sleepers for a different approach to

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<v Speaker 1>golf architecture, all in the name I think of him

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<v Speaker 1>trying to distinguish him self from his predecessors. That's I

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<v Speaker 1>think the struggle right now that a lot that the

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<v Speaker 1>next generation is is dealing with the Brian Schneiders, the

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<v Speaker 1>Blake Conant's, the David Zenkin's, the the Rob Collins. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>leaving many out, I'm sure, but but they are trying

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<v Speaker 1>to distinguish themselves from what has been an incredibly successful

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<v Speaker 1>run of golf architecture, perhaps even a timeless one. But

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<v Speaker 1>so there isn't there is a natural instinct for them

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<v Speaker 1>to say, hey, look at this, Look what I just did.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, there's that book of famous last lines of here,

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<v Speaker 1>hold my beer, watch this, there's there's there's that aspect

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<v Speaker 1>to some of their newer courses. Uh, and I and

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<v Speaker 1>I take it that some of that is just an

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<v Speaker 1>attempt to find their own feet in the discipline. I

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<v Speaker 1>think some of it is over the top. I think

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<v Speaker 1>some of it is absolutely wonderful, but it is. It

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<v Speaker 1>is they're trying to strike out in a new direction.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't think anybody is trying or anybody that

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<v Speaker 1>we respect is trying to out minimalize or minimize the

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<v Speaker 1>Doaks and the core Crenshaws. They're trying to find a

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<v Speaker 1>different path, and I think that's very exciting. I think

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to be some successes, they're going to be

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<v Speaker 1>some failures, but I think it's an exciting moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think obviously this moment, I think I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think we expected to have this many new golf courses

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<v Speaker 2>being built on an annual basis. I mean, if you

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<v Speaker 2>start to think about like where we were five years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>six years ago, it was a handful you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>could count them on two hands new golf courses being

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<v Speaker 2>built per year. And I think, like we're at this

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<v Speaker 2>as you kind of illustrate, and this is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>one of my this fits into kind of one of

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<v Speaker 2>my larger points is that we are now getting the

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to see fresh blood in golf architecture. There was

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<v Speaker 2>a I think like a lot of people that are

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<v Speaker 2>very into golf course architecture new golf courses were asking

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<v Speaker 2>for this six years ago, but the reality was there

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<v Speaker 2>just aren't enough new builds for that to be the case.

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<v Speaker 2>Because if there's only eight golf courses being built, a

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<v Speaker 2>couple are going to go to Fassio, But then for

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<v Speaker 2>the other ones, it's like, why wouldn't I hire Tom Doak,

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<v Speaker 2>Bill Corn or Gill Hands Right, Like, I'm I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to take the risk on the twenty million dollar

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<v Speaker 2>investment and hire somebody new. But now we're seeing those guys,

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<v Speaker 2>the big names, and I think like one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things that I think is interesting is I think that

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<v Speaker 2>the first people called are now Tom Doak, Bill Kor

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<v Speaker 2>and Ben Crenshaw and Gil Hands. I think that is

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<v Speaker 2>a seismic shift in golf architecture. They are the clear

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<v Speaker 2>kind of across the board people the bona fide number

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<v Speaker 2>one golf architects, and I don't think that was the

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<v Speaker 2>case ten years ago. But now because of the influx

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<v Speaker 2>of builds, there is this huge opportunity. There's a huge

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to identify, to begin for architects to begin to

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<v Speaker 2>showcase what they can do and maybe where golf architecture

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<v Speaker 2>is going. And I think that is a very interesting

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<v Speaker 2>topic because you see different things like I think Brian

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<v Speaker 2>Schneider is a really interesting example of this, where he

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<v Speaker 2>has introduced some he is not He's building golf courses

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<v Speaker 2>in a minimal fashion from the sense of you know

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<v Speaker 2>there he's attempting to use the land. He's not just

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<v Speaker 2>blowing up, you know, a piece of property and re

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<v Speaker 2>engineering everything about it. He's attempting to use the land.

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<v Speaker 2>But he is creating a lot of very clearly man

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<v Speaker 2>made features, mounding you know, greens that are pushed up.

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<v Speaker 2>They do not look like they were just sitting there

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<v Speaker 2>as it, but they do you know that that is

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<v Speaker 2>a different style, right. You obviously have Rob Collins and

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<v Speaker 2>Tad King, who I think have made a name for

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<v Speaker 2>themselves for blowing up properties, moving earth, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>like one of the things that they probably would push

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<v Speaker 2>back on is we've never been afforded a site that's

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<v Speaker 2>good enough to not blow up and push dirt around.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, there's there's also just the the the

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<v Speaker 1>theoretical problem that the younger generation faced, which is you

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<v Speaker 1>can't out minimalize a minimalist.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I can't get that. I think you could. I

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<v Speaker 2>think I think we haven't seen somebody go like completely like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, I'm not doing anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well, but that becomes a driving range, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>at some point it just becomes a place where you

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<v Speaker 1>hit balls into an open space. And that's a very

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<v Speaker 1>hard road to hoe for the for the younger generation.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean. But the other thing that I think, and

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<v Speaker 1>I agree with you entirely, the go to guys are

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<v Speaker 1>the sort of the three key guys who all come

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<v Speaker 1>out of the quote minimalist school. They may debate that,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think they buy and large do the issue

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<v Speaker 1>facing the golf industry, and it is huge right now

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<v Speaker 1>is that that group of golfers with gills maybe a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit younger, but Core is pushing eighty Doak is

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<v Speaker 1>already talking about slowing down in his early sixties. I've

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<v Speaker 1>always thought Hanson's a bit of a hybrid, but he's young,

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<v Speaker 1>a bit younger. But they are truly aging out at

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<v Speaker 1>this point, and whether they like it or not, in

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<v Speaker 1>the next ten years, maybe five years, they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be doing a lot less work. And it's because they

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<v Speaker 1>want to do less work. But and that's where the

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<v Speaker 1>new generation slides in because there's the demand I think

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be there and they're the ones that

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<v Speaker 1>are going to have to fill it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think, yeah, and I think this ties in

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<v Speaker 2>to one of my other topics that I had here

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<v Speaker 2>and I kind of wrote down some names. This is

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<v Speaker 2>me some fresh blood in golf architecture with less than

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<v Speaker 2>five original designs to their name that are kind of

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<v Speaker 2>popping up. You've got Ogilvie, Cocking and Me the Australian firm.

0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:20.040
<v Speaker 2>They're They're big opening this year was the Medina three renovation.

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 2>They have some new builds on the way. They have

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 2>the ones at fall Line thirty six holes, near you,

0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.760
<v Speaker 2>as well as some other ones coming on board online

0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.840
<v Speaker 2>in the near future. You have Kyle Franz, who did

0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 2>the redesign at Cabot, also was part of co designer Broomsedge.

0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.640
<v Speaker 2>You've got the Love Sherman combination, which I think is

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:50.640
<v Speaker 2>like a diametrically different kind of firm. Then you're than

0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 2>some of these other ones where they come. It's the

0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.640
<v Speaker 2>PGA tour Player and then kind of out of a

0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:03.160
<v Speaker 2>big design firm partnership that we saw very much, you know,

0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.520
<v Speaker 2>prolific in the nineties and eighties, not as popular in

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.600
<v Speaker 2>this era, but I think they probably they're They're a

0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:17.040
<v Speaker 2>lot different than the Nicholas companies, you know, or Arnold

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 2>Palmer Design. You've got Rob Collins, uh and Tad King.

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:26.800
<v Speaker 2>You've got Brian Schneider. Tyler Ray is starting to get

0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.600
<v Speaker 2>some new design work. He's been doing restoration work for

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.480
<v Speaker 2>a number of years now, and Uh it's certainly in

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.480
<v Speaker 2>that young, up and coming bucket. Ky Goldby is building

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.200
<v Speaker 2>a new course and obviously was heavily involved with Tree Farm.

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 2>H Andrew Green got his first new build. He's been

0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:53.240
<v Speaker 2>obviously a huge, huge force in the renovation restoration world

0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and then uh. And then I've got Jackson Kahn on here,

0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.720
<v Speaker 2>which is like kind of like the next iteration to

0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.760
<v Speaker 2>me of the Fasio school. And I you know, I've

0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:11.760
<v Speaker 2>played their Scottsdale National. It's completely it is so diametrically

0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 2>different than minimalism, like as far away from minimalism as

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.480
<v Speaker 2>you could get. But I thought it was fantastic.

0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's the direction most of these guys

0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.240
<v Speaker 1>are going to go in to distinguish them They have

0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.399
<v Speaker 1>to distinguish themselves or their careers are going to be

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:37.760
<v Speaker 1>very short lived. And let let's recall this is the

0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.159
<v Speaker 1>historian my speaking that at the at the outset of

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:48.600
<v Speaker 1>the strategic golf architecture, early on, say, pre World War One, McKenzie,

0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.800
<v Speaker 1>cold and many of it and Simpson were designing wild,

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:59.639
<v Speaker 1>radical features on golf courses. The examples, you know, the

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.919
<v Speaker 1>Well Park greens, the famous pictures of those greens that

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:07.679
<v Speaker 1>mackenzie did, McKenzie's Uh, some of his designs for Cyprus

0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Point are crazy heading the Headingly greens that the Colt

0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.439
<v Speaker 1>did were wild. I mean these, all of these, the

0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.000
<v Speaker 1>fangs have been taken out of almost all of them

0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.560
<v Speaker 1>since the Saint George's Hill, the famous eighth Green, the

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.440
<v Speaker 1>par three Saint George's Hill that Colt designed. These were crazy,

0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:30.240
<v Speaker 1>crazy greens, and I think that was in part trying

0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 1>to find their feet in a new kind of discipline.

0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:40.560
<v Speaker 1>They were pushing the envelope to distinguish themselves at the time,

0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.680
<v Speaker 1>I think, largely from Victorian golf architecture. There's a whole

0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:48.520
<v Speaker 1>different ballgame now, but there is that temptation, and I

0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.680
<v Speaker 1>think some of the newer guys are doing some of

0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.679
<v Speaker 1>that more bold Dare I say radical sorts of features

0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.880
<v Speaker 1>for that reason, you.

0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:06.359
<v Speaker 2>Know, I've got a couple thoughts on this, and I

0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.520
<v Speaker 2>think that your general inclination when you're a young architect

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.919
<v Speaker 2>is to build bold because it is a opportunity you've

0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:18.200
<v Speaker 2>you've worked like and young architect is interesting because young

0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:23.280
<v Speaker 2>architect in golf is forty year old, right, right, So

0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:28.280
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about you're talking about a professional career where

0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.440
<v Speaker 2>you have worked for other people for at a minimum,

0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:39.160
<v Speaker 2>usually fifteen years without being able to express your ideas.

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.680
<v Speaker 2>So when you get these early opportunities, it is the natural.

0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.920
<v Speaker 2>It was like, let me show you what I've been

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 2>thinking about. Hey, watch this fifteen twenty years. Like, I

0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.960
<v Speaker 2>don't think there are many professions like that where your ideas,

0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, like, sure you have some like individual ability

0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.399
<v Speaker 2>to do things on a right Sure you might be

0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.479
<v Speaker 2>the lead associate on a project, but at the end

0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:10.000
<v Speaker 2>of the day, you are not putting everything out there.

0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:14.639
<v Speaker 2>On a recent yoke with Doke, Tom talked about like a

0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.639
<v Speaker 2>A really told a really great story about Riverdale Dunes

0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.399
<v Speaker 2>of course in Denver, that he worked on with Perry

0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:26.159
<v Speaker 2>Die and he said Perry had a coinciding project that

0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.840
<v Speaker 2>paid more money in Denver, so he had two projects

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.919
<v Speaker 2>in Denver, and he said to Tom, just go built

0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.560
<v Speaker 2>cool stuff at Riverdale Dunes, like go crazy out there.

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:40.560
<v Speaker 2>And he said that Perry came out the first visit

0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:44.040
<v Speaker 2>he came out, he was he was like, this is it,

0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:50.439
<v Speaker 2>Like I told you to go crazy, right, And like

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Tom was like, yeah, I was like a little worried

0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.320
<v Speaker 2>about like what I was doing because like at the

0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.400
<v Speaker 2>end of the day, your name's not on it, so

0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:01.120
<v Speaker 2>like you're gonna hold back, right, And then from there

0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.040
<v Speaker 2>he went nuts, you know, and he built some really

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:09.600
<v Speaker 2>wild stuff. And so I think like when you your

0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.760
<v Speaker 2>natural inclination, when you're a young golf architect is you're

0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.359
<v Speaker 2>going to say, look at me, but like part of

0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:20.719
<v Speaker 2>what I always think about and like this is like

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:25.720
<v Speaker 2>so true at a place like Brambles, for example, where

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:31.120
<v Speaker 2>they went I mean, super minimal, some pretty wild greens.

0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.439
<v Speaker 2>But there are some occasions where you you know, you

0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.199
<v Speaker 2>look at some of these holes and you're like, God, like,

0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.640
<v Speaker 2>how did he know? How did bild know that this

0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 2>was going to be enough? Like to me, it's way

0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.560
<v Speaker 2>harder to know when you have just enough that it's

0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.080
<v Speaker 2>not going to be dull and boring, but you have

0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 2>just enough features in a hole that it's really a

0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.040
<v Speaker 2>wonderful gentle pull the play.

0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:06.600
<v Speaker 1>The supreme talent in golf architecture, and only very very

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:11.240
<v Speaker 1>few people have it is how to play the restraint card. Yes,

0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:15.560
<v Speaker 1>that's hard to do because it takes extraordinary amounts of

0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.720
<v Speaker 1>courage not to build a bunker there, or not to

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:24.760
<v Speaker 1>build a mound over there, just leave it alone. That's hard.

0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.720
<v Speaker 1>That takes guts. It's like silent parts of Mozart symphonies.

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.520
<v Speaker 1>It takes guts just to have nothing going on for

0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:38.240
<v Speaker 1>a moment, and it's yeah, I agree, Tyling.

0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:42.800
<v Speaker 2>My other thought on what you said about the wildness

0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.879
<v Speaker 2>is I think one of the things and this was

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.160
<v Speaker 2>probably the case. You could tell me if I bright

0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.920
<v Speaker 2>or wrong in the twenties or you know, I think

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.640
<v Speaker 2>roughly that's the period of time you're talking about here,

0:22:56.240 --> 0:23:01.479
<v Speaker 2>nineteen tens, nineteen twenties. But I think like one of

0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.639
<v Speaker 2>the things that's not talked about enough is how modern

0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:13.080
<v Speaker 2>agronomy practices have limited the amount of ability for architects

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:18.919
<v Speaker 2>to innovate, to do things differently because the playing surfaces

0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:23.159
<v Speaker 2>are just so fast now that the slopes that you

0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:26.959
<v Speaker 2>can use in the fairway and on the greens and

0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:31.920
<v Speaker 2>around the greens are just less. You don't have as

0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 2>much room to play with because of how fast our

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 2>playing surfaces and how well maintained our playing surfaces are now.

0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.240
<v Speaker 2>Like I'll never forget the old course at the Open,

0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:49.080
<v Speaker 2>the last Open they held. Yeah, the fairways were amazing,

0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:51.600
<v Speaker 2>they were fast and firm. But I looked at it

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:53.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, well, every hole, every ball goes to

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.560
<v Speaker 2>the bottom of these really amazing contours, They go to

0:23:57.600 --> 0:24:01.840
<v Speaker 2>the low spots, so the contours aren't even working the

0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:02.600
<v Speaker 2>way they should.

0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. There there there are a couple of I agree

0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.679
<v Speaker 1>with that there there are a couple of along the

0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:16.000
<v Speaker 1>same lines. Uh. I guess my response to that is that, well,

0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:18.160
<v Speaker 1>you can always just let not cut the grass so low,

0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:19.200
<v Speaker 1>but I do.

0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.920
<v Speaker 2>But that's but that's not what the consumers demanding. The

0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:29.080
<v Speaker 2>consumers demand, although that's what they think they're demanding.

0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Although at some point cutting off greens starts to become tiresome.

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:36.760
<v Speaker 1>But but for some people, yeah, well for me in particular, but.

0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:39.040
<v Speaker 2>I think both of us think that way. But then

0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I hear people are they'll tell me it is awesome.

0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.159
<v Speaker 2>I put it off four greens. I'm like, wait, what,

0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:45.320
<v Speaker 2>what's awesome about that?

0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:47.280
<v Speaker 1>But let me let me, let me, let me talk

0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:49.639
<v Speaker 1>because I was thinking about this last time. Let me

0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:53.800
<v Speaker 1>talk about two lost threads that that I think the

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.919
<v Speaker 1>younger generation, whether they know it or not or are

0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 1>sort of picking up on. And one is the original

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Augusta National from nineteen thirty four, Mackenzie's original course. I

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.680
<v Speaker 1>have always thought, and I've had this off the wall

0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:17.320
<v Speaker 1>theory that Augusta in nineteen thirty four was strategic golf

0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:25.199
<v Speaker 1>architecture on Acid on LSD. It was crazy shit. It

0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:30.960
<v Speaker 1>had relatively few bunkers, lots of contouring and just wild greens.

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:36.320
<v Speaker 1>I think Mackenzie had hoped, and this is towards the

0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:40.480
<v Speaker 1>end of his career, that he would take strategic golf

0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 1>architecture in a new direction, one that would have boomerang greens,

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:50.840
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of crazy stuff. It turned out that the

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Great Depression in World War II interceded. Nobody had any

0:25:55.480 --> 0:26:00.080
<v Speaker 1>money for new golf courses until almost nineteen sixty or so.

0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:04.159
<v Speaker 1>By then all the Golden Age grades were gone. Certainly,

0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:08.919
<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie dies I think in thirty four, so golf architecture

0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:12.480
<v Speaker 1>really at that point sort of started over with Robert

0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Trenchones Junior and that sort of thing. But Mackenzie was suggesting,

0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 1>I think at Augusta something that because he did it

0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Augusta he had an owner, Bob Jones, who understood him.

0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:27.960
<v Speaker 1>I think he was trying to push architecture to a

0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:31.560
<v Speaker 1>place that hadn't been before, and it turned out, because

0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:35.919
<v Speaker 1>of other historical events, it never happened. I think the

0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:40.480
<v Speaker 1>younger generation is sort of going down that same road.

0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Let's take things to a different place, and I hope

0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:52.760
<v Speaker 1>they do. I hope, but I'll stop in a second.

0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:56.840
<v Speaker 1>The other lost thread that nobody has picked up, or

0:26:56.880 --> 0:26:59.879
<v Speaker 1>at least well, I take that back. I'll give you

0:26:59.880 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 1>a caveat in a minute. The other lost thread is

0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Pinehurst US opened twenty fourteen, single line of irrigation. They

0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:14.600
<v Speaker 1>let instead of growing rough they just let the natural

0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:19.400
<v Speaker 1>vegetation grow. Much of it is sandy the idea and

0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:25.080
<v Speaker 1>God bless Mike what's his name, the usg head, Mike Davis.

0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:29.240
<v Speaker 1>Mike Davis, who wanted that to be a model for

0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:31.560
<v Speaker 1>how golf courses were going to be built in the

0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:34.639
<v Speaker 1>future because they are easier to build and hell of

0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:39.880
<v Speaker 1>a lot cheaper to maintain. It didn't happen. I mean,

0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:46.160
<v Speaker 1>domestic every day golfers didn't like under maintained golf courses

0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:46.560
<v Speaker 1>like that.

0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:50.040
<v Speaker 2>You know who didn't like it? Donald Trump didn't like it, absolutely,

0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:51.640
<v Speaker 2>he tweeted about it.

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 1>Although doakes Pinehurst number ten has got some of that.

0:27:55.960 --> 0:27:58.600
<v Speaker 1>The roughs are not really rough so much as just

0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:07.520
<v Speaker 1>unmaintained areas. Yeah, but that's another lost thread that I think,

0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:12.800
<v Speaker 1>knowingly or not, the younger generation is sort of picking

0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:17.560
<v Speaker 1>up on, and that may be that may give us

0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:20.280
<v Speaker 1>a hint of where things end up going. But both

0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:24.040
<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie and Macgusta in nineteen thirty four a lost opportunity,

0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:29.480
<v Speaker 1>it seems to me, and the Open twenty fourteen at Pinehurst,

0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:33.400
<v Speaker 1>we're all suggesting there are different there's a different way

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:37.360
<v Speaker 1>to do stuff, and maybe somebody ought to pick up

0:28:37.400 --> 0:28:37.760
<v Speaker 1>on that.

0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:42.920
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of directions to go on your two

0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:47.480
<v Speaker 2>comments here, and I think like one of the things

0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:50.720
<v Speaker 2>that I dislike the most about the golf industry right

0:28:50.760 --> 0:28:56.000
<v Speaker 2>now is the chase that is currently happening on the

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:59.000
<v Speaker 2>agronomy side. And I think like what you hit on

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.040
<v Speaker 2>with with pine HER's number two is a great example,

0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:09.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, the chase for perfect on the agronomy side,

0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:15.240
<v Speaker 2>right I don't think anybody if you, if you, if

0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:20.360
<v Speaker 2>you said there's a scale of you know, one of

0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:24.680
<v Speaker 2>your potential on the agronomy side, I think like a

0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.560
<v Speaker 2>lot of people are chasing that one hundred percent because

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:32.720
<v Speaker 2>the amount of the amount of money that it costs

0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:36.240
<v Speaker 2>to get to seventy five percent is let's just call

0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:41.440
<v Speaker 2>it a million bucks depending on your property, the amount

0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:45.400
<v Speaker 2>of money to go from seventy five to ninety let's

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:49.800
<v Speaker 2>just call it is seven hundred thousand. So you're you're

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:52.440
<v Speaker 2>all sudden and These are just rough numbers. I'm not

0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:57.120
<v Speaker 2>an agronomist. Every property is different, everybody's systems are different.

0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.240
<v Speaker 2>So you're talking about, okay, it's a million dollar to

0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.920
<v Speaker 2>gip me to seventy five, and is seven hundred thousand

0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:07.080
<v Speaker 2>for fifteen percent. To go from ninety to ninety five

0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:11.959
<v Speaker 2>is like another million dollars, right, and then you know

0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:15.120
<v Speaker 2>to go the next five percent depending on your property

0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 2>and how crazy your membership is, how crazy your greens

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:22.560
<v Speaker 2>German is is like another million or two million dollars, right,

0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:27.719
<v Speaker 2>And you see these maintenance budgets just pushing up, and

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:31.160
<v Speaker 2>it's like, what are we No golfer knows the difference

0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>between ninety and one hundred. Very few golfers care about

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:38.560
<v Speaker 2>the difference between seventy five and ninety. And at the

0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:42.640
<v Speaker 2>end of the day, all these costs get pushed back

0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:46.360
<v Speaker 2>to the to the game and the individuals that play

0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the game, and like you know what, like you can say, oh,

0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 2>like uh, like it's my club. This is the way

0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:56.880
<v Speaker 2>we do things like who wants who wants two thousand

0:30:56.920 --> 0:31:00.880
<v Speaker 2>dollars a month? Dudes? Does anybody? Does anybody want that?

0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:04.760
<v Speaker 2>But that's that's where we're going that's where the where like,

0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:09.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, why why are neighborhood clubs like that that

0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:13.080
<v Speaker 2>are like just they're dokee fives? Why why are the

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:17.840
<v Speaker 2>dues on these clubs over a thousand dollars? Like it?

0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.960
<v Speaker 2>It's crazy to me where this is going and where

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:24.040
<v Speaker 2>it reflects. Also is like there are clubs now with

0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 2>guest fees. Like if I'm a member and I spend

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple hundred thousand on my initiation, I'm

0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:34.520
<v Speaker 2>spending thousands of dollars every month when I want to

0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.040
<v Speaker 2>bring a guest out, which is like part of like

0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.680
<v Speaker 2>being a member, like sharing your course is Oh, it's

0:31:40.800 --> 0:31:45.200
<v Speaker 2>it's four hundred dollars to bring a guest out plus caddies.

0:31:45.480 --> 0:31:46.280
<v Speaker 1>You're not slunch.

0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:49.760
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh what like And obviously, like a lot

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:52.520
<v Speaker 2>of people in this case like maybe this isn't a

0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:55.240
<v Speaker 2>consequential sum of money, but to me, that's just the

0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:57.440
<v Speaker 2>wrong direction for the game of golf.

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know, I think absolutely. And having been a

0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:06.719
<v Speaker 1>green chairman at a large Atlanta metro area golf course,

0:32:08.440 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 1>they have unlimited capital resources.

0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes they don't care.

0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:17.600
<v Speaker 1>They just don't care. You know. You see it at

0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:21.200
<v Speaker 1>every level in terms of the toro machines they buy,

0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:27.520
<v Speaker 1>in terms of the money poured into agronomy, including the

0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:30.720
<v Speaker 1>number of staff they have to maintain the golf course.

0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.440
<v Speaker 1>It's just they don't really it's just whatever you need.

0:32:34.720 --> 0:32:39.080
<v Speaker 1>It's just whatever you need. It's it's it's an amazing

0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:44.680
<v Speaker 1>business privates, particularly large successful ones. It's an amazing business.

0:32:44.800 --> 0:32:47.080
<v Speaker 1>But let me, let me, let me there's another There's

0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:50.760
<v Speaker 1>an underbelly to that which I think is absolutely fascinating.

0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:54.800
<v Speaker 1>And this gets back to my new generation thesis, which

0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:56.960
<v Speaker 1>is that there are a lot of people your age

0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:03.640
<v Speaker 1>who travel in these in normal packs to play these good,

0:33:03.960 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 1>solid public courses to hang out. They aren't you know,

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.840
<v Speaker 1>they aren't maintained to the nth degree, but they enjoy

0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:15.280
<v Speaker 1>being with each other. They enjoy the golf courses, and

0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:18.080
<v Speaker 1>and and and that ranges from at the high end

0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:23.360
<v Speaker 1>the Bandon Dunes types to Mike Young's the field and.

0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Well abandoned dunes. The greens are maybe tens. That's what

0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:31.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't understand. Everybody goes to abandoned dunes. Everybody goes

0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:35.320
<v Speaker 2>to Scotland, Everybody goes to Ireland and is like, oh,

0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:38.440
<v Speaker 2>these are the golf there is just so amazing. It's

0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>the best golf, it's the best golf all those places

0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:45.280
<v Speaker 2>for the most part, outside of like a deer, outside

0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of the tourist traps, and in the UK, their their

0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 2>maintenance budgets are fractions right of the American country Club

0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and these That's what I don't get. I don't understand

0:33:56.680 --> 0:34:01.000
<v Speaker 2>how there's no corollary here, right, I don't.

0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:03.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't either, other than you can do it, so

0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 1>do it. That's that's that, you know, if if you

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:11.799
<v Speaker 1>can stamp your greens at twelve or thirteen on a

0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:13.120
<v Speaker 1>daily basis.

0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:13.399
<v Speaker 2>Do it.

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Here's the money, by the way. Yeah, and and and

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:21.480
<v Speaker 1>it's it's it's nuts, it's it's totally nuts. But but

0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:23.960
<v Speaker 1>but the other phenomenon, and I think you know this

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:27.000
<v Speaker 1>is the younger general. Is it a There is a

0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:31.160
<v Speaker 1>cohort of younger girl golfers, people in their late thirties,

0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:35.040
<v Speaker 1>early forties maybe who are just not buying the private

0:34:35.080 --> 0:34:37.840
<v Speaker 1>club model, who would rather get in a car or

0:34:37.880 --> 0:34:41.440
<v Speaker 1>an airplane and travel to play these golf courses that

0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:46.240
<v Speaker 1>are not so impeccably maintained in part because of the camaraderie.

0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 1>But I think in part because of the golf courses themselves.

0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:54.560
<v Speaker 1>And I wonder if that isn't an early warning shot

0:34:54.680 --> 0:34:59.680
<v Speaker 1>at the private club model, that that leading the sort

0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 1>of the thought leaders of your generation. I don't know

0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:05.759
<v Speaker 1>how old you are, but I'm guessing around forty the

0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:09.320
<v Speaker 1>thought leaders of that generation are heading in a different direction.

0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:11.239
<v Speaker 1>That's I find that encouraging.

0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:17.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that this was absolutely playing out, and this

0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:21.719
<v Speaker 2>was playing out in the late twenty tens, and then

0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:27.560
<v Speaker 2>COVID completely completely changed this movement. To me, one of

0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 2>my long standing beliefs is that no private club realized this,

0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:39.160
<v Speaker 2>but the Kaisers completely through a wrench in their business model.

0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:39.759
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:45.239
<v Speaker 2>The Kaisers were, you know, unbeknownst to private clubs. The

0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Kaisers effectively were killing the local private club. Because people

0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:57.560
<v Speaker 2>of my age pre COVID, we're looking at like, you know,

0:35:57.640 --> 0:36:01.000
<v Speaker 2>the role of the modern parent has completely changed. I

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:07.239
<v Speaker 2>am a modern parent. I if I you know, I'm

0:36:07.280 --> 0:36:11.279
<v Speaker 2>sure some some listeners will say, well, like you're you're

0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:14.600
<v Speaker 2>you're just soft. But if I look at my wife

0:36:14.760 --> 0:36:16.960
<v Speaker 2>on a weekend and say I'm gonna go play golf

0:36:16.960 --> 0:36:21.840
<v Speaker 2>at eleven am or ten am or nine am, she

0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:25.000
<v Speaker 2>looks at me like you're gonna work all week and

0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:28.319
<v Speaker 2>then you're just gonna not be here with your kid,

0:36:29.000 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, like like it it's like it's easier for

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.520
<v Speaker 2>me to play golf on a on a Tuesday morning

0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:39.600
<v Speaker 2>than it is to play on a Saturday morning at

0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.960
<v Speaker 2>this point, and this is the This is not me alone.

0:36:43.040 --> 0:36:48.880
<v Speaker 2>This is the modern household with kids. So the way

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:52.400
<v Speaker 2>the reason that country clubs work, and like this is

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.680
<v Speaker 2>where it's completely flipped if you listen to old episodes

0:36:55.719 --> 0:37:00.200
<v Speaker 2>of this podcast versus now. The only way I'm going

0:36:59.960 --> 0:37:03.960
<v Speaker 2>to play golf is if there's a pool right involved,

0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:07.080
<v Speaker 2>and it can be like bring the kid at the pool,

0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:09.520
<v Speaker 2>to the pool at eleven, and I will be there

0:37:09.719 --> 0:37:13.040
<v Speaker 2>at noon and I will just play with the kid

0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:15.600
<v Speaker 2>all afternoon and you can just sit at the pool

0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:20.000
<v Speaker 2>right like that, That is how it works. But the

0:37:20.080 --> 0:37:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Kaisers people were looking at it, and you know, there

0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:28.000
<v Speaker 2>was this People were staying in the city longer, so

0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:33.400
<v Speaker 2>there were more young, younger adults staying in the city longer,

0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:37.600
<v Speaker 2>apartments in the city and in modern buildings in the city.

0:37:37.600 --> 0:37:39.920
<v Speaker 2>There are more pool options in the city than ever.

0:37:41.160 --> 0:37:44.359
<v Speaker 2>Less people wanted to travel out to the suburbs. That

0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:47.879
<v Speaker 2>and what happened. COVID hit, and everybody's like, oh, I

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:51.719
<v Speaker 2>like green space, I like having my own space, and

0:37:51.760 --> 0:37:55.600
<v Speaker 2>this completely reversed this. But people were looking at the Kaisers,

0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:58.439
<v Speaker 2>at the bally Nels, at the Prairie dunes, at the

0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.839
<v Speaker 2>It's like I could spend one thousand dollars a month

0:38:01.880 --> 0:38:05.480
<v Speaker 2>and have a big initiation fee and join here, or

0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:09.839
<v Speaker 2>I could do two or three of these these cool

0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:13.080
<v Speaker 2>trips a year, play a few rounds of public golf,

0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:17.279
<v Speaker 2>and that satisized my golfitch, even if I'm a diehard golfer.

0:38:17.400 --> 0:38:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Right and Sweeten's cobes exhibit A one.

0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:24.280
<v Speaker 2>For that exactly. And I think that was the trend

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:29.759
<v Speaker 2>that really, like you know, if you're a historian, seismic

0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:34.320
<v Speaker 2>events completely changed the direction of things that are happening.

0:38:35.320 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think the local the local club model was

0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:42.319
<v Speaker 2>at like was on the verge of being in like

0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:47.680
<v Speaker 2>a very very very bad spot until COVID hit, and

0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:53.520
<v Speaker 2>that completely changed the whole way society viewed the suburbs

0:38:54.000 --> 0:38:58.160
<v Speaker 2>and the whole way the younger generation thought of the

0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:02.640
<v Speaker 2>local club and it completely has changed the golf world.

0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:06.040
<v Speaker 1>In golf business, well, I think, I think, I think

0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:09.759
<v Speaker 1>it will. I'm still in touch with my club here

0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:14.120
<v Speaker 1>in Atlanta and they still have a weight list and they're.

0:39:14.000 --> 0:39:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Still Did they have a weight list in twenty eighteen.

0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.560
<v Speaker 1>Yes, but I'll tell you where they didn't have a

0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:23.040
<v Speaker 1>weight list. And maybe you don't remember this, but the

0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:26.759
<v Speaker 1>real estate Wall Street crash in two thousand and eight

0:39:26.920 --> 0:39:31.799
<v Speaker 1>and nine wiped out everybody's weightlist. In fact, we were

0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:35.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of members resigned or were bootered out for

0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:39.440
<v Speaker 1>failure to pay dues. By twenty eighteen that had recovered,

0:39:39.480 --> 0:39:42.520
<v Speaker 1>and there was a weight list back then, and COVID,

0:39:42.600 --> 0:39:46.760
<v Speaker 1>it thinks, just accelerated. To everybody's surprise, things accelerated during COVID.

0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:49.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you wanted to get out in the golf course,

0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:53.800
<v Speaker 1>but but you know getting back real quick to abandon

0:39:54.040 --> 0:39:55.319
<v Speaker 1>and I don't want to spend a lot of time

0:39:55.360 --> 0:40:01.319
<v Speaker 1>on this. I think Kaiser's genius, and I mean the

0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:04.719
<v Speaker 1>word genius in its full sense of the word, was

0:40:04.760 --> 0:40:10.040
<v Speaker 1>to develop golf courses that appeal to everybody, the golf architecture,

0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.759
<v Speaker 1>nutcases like you and me, but also to wives who

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:17.319
<v Speaker 1>wanted to come out and play golf. It's extraordinary to

0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:20.120
<v Speaker 1>put together a set of golf courses that appeals to

0:40:20.360 --> 0:40:24.359
<v Speaker 1>both and I've done it. My wife loved it. I

0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:28.239
<v Speaker 1>loved it. It's just and dok has mentioned in the

0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:33.920
<v Speaker 1>past that Kaiser has a knack for walking that tightrope

0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:34.800
<v Speaker 1>and it's not easy.

0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:40.359
<v Speaker 2>I think this goes to one of the topics that

0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I probably harp on as much as possible. But I

0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:49.640
<v Speaker 2>think the Kaiser's the other genius they and obviously they

0:40:49.680 --> 0:40:53.359
<v Speaker 2>have some leverage. They're building golf courses for cheaper than

0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:57.719
<v Speaker 2>everybody else, and they're proving that great golf architecture does

0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:03.640
<v Speaker 2>not cost more than shitty golf architecture. In fact, over time,

0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:08.280
<v Speaker 2>great golf architecture costs way less than shitty golf.

0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:11.160
<v Speaker 1>Arc and they're also but they're also proving something that

0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:14.279
<v Speaker 1>the I hate to sound condescending, but that the sort

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:17.560
<v Speaker 1>of the the everyday golfer has never really quite understood

0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:20.720
<v Speaker 1>until maybe recently, and that is that a really great

0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:23.800
<v Speaker 1>golf course doesn't have to be a hard golf course. Yes,

0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:28.479
<v Speaker 1>and and Augusta National is a great exhibit example of that.

0:41:28.960 --> 0:41:32.319
<v Speaker 1>But but also Bandon, I mean Bandon won't beat you

0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:35.560
<v Speaker 1>up if you don't let it. I mean, you don't

0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:38.640
<v Speaker 1>have to play that well to to enjoy Bandon. You know,

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:40.719
<v Speaker 1>it's a classic course of where you if you want

0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:43.239
<v Speaker 1>to play for score aggressively, it might beat you up.

0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.440
<v Speaker 1>But if you want to just play your game, it's fine.

0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:49.360
<v Speaker 1>And I he you know, Kaiser understands that.

0:41:57.719 --> 0:42:00.160
<v Speaker 2>All right, let's take a quick break from Bob and

0:42:00.239 --> 0:42:03.320
<v Speaker 2>let's talk about our partner, launch Box by True Golf.

0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:07.319
<v Speaker 2>If you're into golf architecture, True launch Box is a

0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.759
<v Speaker 2>great product because you can play some of the best

0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:13.479
<v Speaker 2>golf courses in the world virtually. Launch Box is a

0:42:13.760 --> 0:42:17.480
<v Speaker 2>portable launch monitor and golf simulator, and it has a

0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:21.560
<v Speaker 2>simple setup, instant shot registration, has a lot of measured data,

0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:25.600
<v Speaker 2>and an easy Wi Fi connection. Now it's winter, it's cold.

0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:27.080
<v Speaker 2>A lot of places I saw there are a lot

0:42:27.120 --> 0:42:29.840
<v Speaker 2>of places turned up the weather turn bad. I'm sorry

0:42:30.440 --> 0:42:34.680
<v Speaker 2>for those places. But you could use launch Box indoors

0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:39.320
<v Speaker 2>and set up a great indoor golf setup for yourself.

0:42:39.640 --> 0:42:42.719
<v Speaker 2>You can use it also outdoors off a mat. So

0:42:42.800 --> 0:42:47.160
<v Speaker 2>if you're interested in getting a launch monitor that's great

0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:51.640
<v Speaker 2>that has great golf course play, launch Box might be

0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:54.560
<v Speaker 2>for you. Go to True golf dot com. That's t

0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:59.400
<v Speaker 2>R u g o lf dot com slash egg and

0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:02.440
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0:43:02.680 --> 0:43:13.399
<v Speaker 2>All right, let's get back to Bob Crosby, going back

0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:20.080
<v Speaker 2>to your augusta national topic and the idea of Mackenzie

0:43:21.120 --> 0:43:24.720
<v Speaker 2>that kind of getting into the mid thirties where golf

0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:27.080
<v Speaker 2>architecture was going. I think you could probably put it

0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:29.160
<v Speaker 2>in the bucket of like the start of the thirties

0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:33.720
<v Speaker 2>where golf architecture was going that was halted by two

0:43:34.400 --> 0:43:38.480
<v Speaker 2>massive events, the Depression and World War Two. You know,

0:43:38.520 --> 0:43:44.759
<v Speaker 2>you talk about a an art form, a practice, a

0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:49.399
<v Speaker 2>a really a new industry that was evolving and new

0:43:49.440 --> 0:43:53.160
<v Speaker 2>ideas were being shared and it was getting more sophisticated

0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and more you know, more professional. You know, if you

0:43:56.719 --> 0:44:00.400
<v Speaker 2>think about like the whole practice, like there weren't professional

0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:05.960
<v Speaker 2>golf architects until like basically the nineteen tenths, and it was.

0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:09.200
<v Speaker 1>A whole new it was a whole new profession exactly.

0:44:09.200 --> 0:44:12.520
<v Speaker 2>You So you have twenty years of a profession and

0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:17.720
<v Speaker 2>then it gets wiped out for effectively twenty five twenty

0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:21.640
<v Speaker 2>five years because of a couple massive world events, and

0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>that that exchange of ideas, the natural evolution of it

0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:31.879
<v Speaker 2>is halted and everything starts fresh with a whole new

0:44:31.960 --> 0:44:37.880
<v Speaker 2>set of technology for doing the job. I think like

0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:44.240
<v Speaker 2>there were other schools emerging at this point. Also beyond

0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:50.520
<v Speaker 2>the Mackenzie Augusta National, there was also like one of

0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie's associates, Perry Maxwell, wrote very harshly about the use

0:44:57.120 --> 0:45:00.799
<v Speaker 2>of steam shovels, and I think this this was directly

0:45:02.600 --> 0:45:07.640
<v Speaker 2>shot a shot at Charles Banks and Langford Moreau, who

0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:10.600
<v Speaker 2>came from a different school than Mackenzie. It was kind

0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:13.920
<v Speaker 2>of more the Rainer McDonald mole of building golf courses.

0:45:14.200 --> 0:45:17.600
<v Speaker 2>But they were evolving. They were building bigger and bigger things.

0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:21.520
<v Speaker 2>They you know, there was still that they weren't altering landscapes,

0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:26.040
<v Speaker 2>but they were constructing large features. And that is another

0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:30.840
<v Speaker 2>with heavy machinery, and it was rudimentary heavy machinery to

0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:35.879
<v Speaker 2>what came out of like nineteen sixty when the bulldozer

0:45:35.920 --> 0:45:37.960
<v Speaker 2>technology got to a point where it's like we can

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.359
<v Speaker 2>literally just flat in a fair way if we want,

0:45:40.800 --> 0:45:41.840
<v Speaker 2>we can make this flat.

0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, we can road grade the whole place.

0:45:45.480 --> 0:45:49.279
<v Speaker 2>And that's where golf architectural lost its way. But that

0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:56.000
<v Speaker 2>other school of not minimal not minimalism where like you know,

0:45:56.120 --> 0:45:59.600
<v Speaker 2>the greens were wild at Augustin National but the general

0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:03.640
<v Speaker 2>thought with the bunkers and allowing the land to really

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:08.680
<v Speaker 2>be the star was this idea of of minimalism. But

0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:11.080
<v Speaker 2>on the other end of the coin you had this

0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:17.600
<v Speaker 2>Golden Age maximalism movement that was also evolving and changing,

0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:21.400
<v Speaker 2>and then that was halted. And I wonder, right now,

0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:25.320
<v Speaker 2>are we at a similar point in golf architecture where

0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:28.239
<v Speaker 2>we have You know, if you look at it, you

0:46:28.320 --> 0:46:32.040
<v Speaker 2>have like disciples with Jackson Kahn of the Fazio. You know,

0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:35.359
<v Speaker 2>we can move the world, you know, and we can

0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.840
<v Speaker 2>create any landscape that you want. You also have the

0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:44.600
<v Speaker 2>disciples of the Dope Core Crunchhaw gil Hand's movement of minimalism,

0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:49.200
<v Speaker 2>where you have their younger associates that might push it,

0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:54.480
<v Speaker 2>push a direct different directions and offshoots from that school.

0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:57.160
<v Speaker 1>I think I think you're right. I think we're at

0:46:57.160 --> 0:47:00.440
<v Speaker 1>a pivot point. I don't think any of it sitting

0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:03.120
<v Speaker 1>here today know where that pivot is going to go.

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:07.839
<v Speaker 1>I think there's some hints, but I don't know that

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:10.719
<v Speaker 1>the route has been set out, and there's we can

0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:14.440
<v Speaker 1>with any sort of reliability predict where things are going

0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:19.200
<v Speaker 1>to go. But it is absolutely a pivot point and

0:47:21.200 --> 0:47:23.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of looking for I hope I live long

0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:29.319
<v Speaker 1>enough to see where it ends up. One of the

0:47:29.360 --> 0:47:33.160
<v Speaker 1>things I hope this younger generation of architects pick up on,

0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:37.080
<v Speaker 1>and I see very little evidence for it, is there's

0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:41.080
<v Speaker 1>just a rich treasure trobe of ideas in the history

0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:43.360
<v Speaker 1>of golf architecture. If they want to go back and

0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:52.720
<v Speaker 1>dig through it, and I hope they do. It doesn't

0:47:52.760 --> 0:47:56.200
<v Speaker 1>mean overturning fundamental principles, but there's just an awful lot

0:47:56.200 --> 0:47:59.000
<v Speaker 1>of ideas out there that are lying on the ground

0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:04.959
<v Speaker 1>for somebody to pick up. Which which can Which leads

0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.840
<v Speaker 1>me to another topic I wanted to touch on real quickly.

0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:11.680
<v Speaker 1>And one of the things I am disappointed in, and

0:48:12.280 --> 0:48:14.520
<v Speaker 1>this is I guess we put this in the disappointed

0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:22.480
<v Speaker 1>bucket is compared to the teens in nineteen twenties, writing

0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:29.920
<v Speaker 1>about golf architecture is impoverished, particularly by architects themselves. And

0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Tom Doak is a clear exception to that. He was

0:48:33.920 --> 0:48:38.319
<v Speaker 1>a brilliant writer and would stand, you know, on an

0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:40.279
<v Speaker 1>equal footing with some of the best writers of the

0:48:40.360 --> 0:48:44.680
<v Speaker 1>teens in nineteen twenties. But he's the only one. I mean,

0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:47.920
<v Speaker 1>there is no other buddy, There is no other architect,

0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:52.640
<v Speaker 1>and relatively few other people writing about golf architecture. And

0:48:52.680 --> 0:48:56.719
<v Speaker 1>by that I mean not just about the esthetics of

0:48:56.760 --> 0:48:59.360
<v Speaker 1>the course, the look of the bunkers, how nice the

0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:03.840
<v Speaker 1>clubhouse is, how smooth the turf is, but you actually

0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:08.160
<v Speaker 1>writing about structure, about the architectural structure of a whole.

0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, why is this bunker here and not there?

0:49:11.719 --> 0:49:16.000
<v Speaker 1>But why is this bunker here at all? Those are

0:49:16.000 --> 0:49:19.400
<v Speaker 1>the kinds of questions people argued about an agonized over

0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:25.239
<v Speaker 1>page after page, and I love it. In the nineteen twenties, Simpson,

0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:29.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, Cole low John Lowe, all these guys were

0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:32.319
<v Speaker 1>battling back and forth about the rationale for putting a

0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:36.560
<v Speaker 1>bunker here and not there. That sort of discussion doesn't

0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:39.600
<v Speaker 1>take place, And I think one of the reasons is

0:49:39.680 --> 0:49:43.520
<v Speaker 1>because the whole golf course rankings ratings thing has just

0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:49.680
<v Speaker 1>swallowed it up. It has taken so much oxygen out

0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:52.840
<v Speaker 1>of the room that there's almost no place left to

0:49:52.880 --> 0:49:55.919
<v Speaker 1>talk about anything else other than whether Old Barnlow should

0:49:55.920 --> 0:49:58.520
<v Speaker 1>be fifty first in the ranking or fifty third I mean,

0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:01.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, should it be I'm silly, should it be

0:50:01.360 --> 0:50:05.000
<v Speaker 1>ahead of Highampton or below high You know, it's ridiculous.

0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:08.560
<v Speaker 1>I think, I think, and you know, God blessed. Oh

0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:11.120
<v Speaker 1>he says, it's all subjective anyway, so what the hell?

0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:18.400
<v Speaker 1>But it is the focus on whereby course ranks is

0:50:18.440 --> 0:50:21.799
<v Speaker 1>a topic that everybody's eager to argue about, rather than

0:50:22.760 --> 0:50:26.120
<v Speaker 1>the inherent features of the course and do they work,

0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:28.600
<v Speaker 1>do they not work? Why if they do work, why

0:50:28.600 --> 0:50:32.879
<v Speaker 1>do they work? There is so little writing about that,

0:50:32.960 --> 0:50:35.560
<v Speaker 1>and that was the main fair of writing on golf

0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:39.120
<v Speaker 1>architecture in the nineteen twenties, and it just doesn't exist

0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:41.719
<v Speaker 1>right now. And I blame part of that on the

0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:46.520
<v Speaker 1>main magazines beginning and say the eighties and nineties, where

0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:49.279
<v Speaker 1>they did a lot of rankings, and their golf architecture

0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:54.399
<v Speaker 1>writers like Ron Witten and others really fairly quickly on

0:50:54.560 --> 0:50:57.960
<v Speaker 1>began talking about basically in terms of rankings and not

0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:03.160
<v Speaker 1>so much any direct discussions of golf architecture itself.

0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, the rankings have become you know, this gets back

0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:11.040
<v Speaker 2>to the club business. The rankings have become big business

0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:15.440
<v Speaker 2>for all clubs. The rankings are rankings are huge business

0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:18.759
<v Speaker 2>for the clubs in Great Britain and Ireland. You know,

0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:22.960
<v Speaker 2>they are huge. It's huge business for clubs in America.

0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:27.280
<v Speaker 2>I visited, you know, I think like Interlocking and Madina,

0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:31.000
<v Speaker 2>they both had different reasons why they did their you know,

0:51:31.080 --> 0:51:35.920
<v Speaker 2>twenty million dollar renovations this year. But I think without

0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:38.560
<v Speaker 2>a doubt one of the reasons was they saw their

0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:42.680
<v Speaker 2>course falling in rankings and they know that that that

0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:46.840
<v Speaker 2>leads to more members, maybe higher initiation, maybe more guests

0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:50.120
<v Speaker 2>wanting to play their more Monday outings more like you know,

0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.719
<v Speaker 2>you go down the line of all the things that

0:51:53.000 --> 0:51:55.960
<v Speaker 2>a higher ranking does and it's big business now. And

0:51:56.040 --> 0:52:00.720
<v Speaker 2>I agree completely like the it's an overall end of

0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:05.399
<v Speaker 2>like there's less nuance than ever with with the way

0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:10.880
<v Speaker 2>people discuss things online online has it's almost making it

0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:14.719
<v Speaker 2>a race to the bottom. It's commoditized the ability to

0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:16.640
<v Speaker 2>publish written word.

0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:20.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one of the I agree that one of the

0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:23.600
<v Speaker 1>problems is the A s g C A prohibits its

0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:28.560
<v Speaker 1>members from criticizing other members. So God bless Tom Doak

0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:30.920
<v Speaker 1>for not joining the A s g C A because

0:52:30.960 --> 0:52:34.880
<v Speaker 1>he he'll he'll criticize other members, other architects.

0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:38.480
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think that's that's become the general practice

0:52:38.760 --> 0:52:42.120
<v Speaker 2>is like young architects, they don't think they should say anything.

0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:45.239
<v Speaker 2>But if you look at Tom, I think, like what's

0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:48.359
<v Speaker 2>interesting is like I think like every architect that, for

0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:51.960
<v Speaker 2>the most part, the developer that hires them is going

0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:57.840
<v Speaker 2>to be a it's like a personality match almost like

0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:01.200
<v Speaker 2>right like the there are pro there're clients that profile

0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:04.960
<v Speaker 2>for a Gill, there are clients that profile for Tom,

0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:08.160
<v Speaker 2>there are clients that profile for Bill, and they're like

0:53:08.280 --> 0:53:11.279
<v Speaker 2>all across the spectrum. They have different personalities and they

0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:15.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of like fit into those buckets, right like, But

0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:18.200
<v Speaker 2>like a Tom Doak, somebody the highers Tom Doak, I

0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:20.480
<v Speaker 2>think for the most part, and this is this is

0:53:20.520 --> 0:53:24.680
<v Speaker 2>not speaking, this is speaking in generalities. There's always exceptions

0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:27.520
<v Speaker 2>to this. Somebody that hires Tom Doak is going to

0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:31.560
<v Speaker 2>be a complete golf nut, like golf tragic to the

0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:34.680
<v Speaker 2>nth degree. They're going to have listened to all the

0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.760
<v Speaker 2>podcasts that he's been on, They're going to read his writing.

0:53:37.880 --> 0:53:39.840
<v Speaker 2>They're going to be and they are going to be

0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:43.279
<v Speaker 2>so in the golf bucket because that is like, that

0:53:43.440 --> 0:53:46.480
<v Speaker 2>is what is like you can tell the guy just

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:50.360
<v Speaker 2>loves golf all He thinks about golf all the time.

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:53.319
<v Speaker 2>And that's that shows in like how much time he

0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:58.120
<v Speaker 2>devotes to writing about the about golf beyond what he's doing,

0:53:58.200 --> 0:54:00.120
<v Speaker 2>Like that's what occupies.

0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:02.919
<v Speaker 1>His brain, right, And and anybody that hires Tom will

0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:06.480
<v Speaker 1>have to have We'll have to know enough about golf

0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:10.800
<v Speaker 1>architecture not to be intimidated by Tom. Yes, and because

0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Tom could be intimidating, yeah, and but I agree it's

0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:19.960
<v Speaker 1>sort of self selecting. But but I you know, I

0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:22.960
<v Speaker 1>think the price for the emphasis on rankings, ratings, whatever

0:54:22.960 --> 0:54:26.040
<v Speaker 1>the word is, the price for that is the absence

0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:29.160
<v Speaker 1>of good writing on golf architecture. It just it really

0:54:29.200 --> 0:54:33.560
<v Speaker 1>has taken over commentary on the game, or at least

0:54:33.680 --> 0:54:34.759
<v Speaker 1>architecture of the game.

0:54:35.160 --> 0:54:39.319
<v Speaker 2>And well it's kind of you know, we've got our

0:54:39.680 --> 0:54:44.760
<v Speaker 2>membership that we write extensively about golf architecture, right, And

0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:47.520
<v Speaker 2>I think one of the things that we wanted to

0:54:47.560 --> 0:54:51.360
<v Speaker 2>avoid was the idea of rating golf courses in a

0:54:51.360 --> 0:54:56.680
<v Speaker 2>one through one hundred fashion, because, as you said, it's

0:54:56.719 --> 0:55:02.480
<v Speaker 2>so silly, like is is sand Hill's number six or

0:55:02.600 --> 0:55:06.600
<v Speaker 2>number ten or number four? It's like, well, what day

0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:08.840
<v Speaker 2>of the week, is that I could could change my

0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:13.320
<v Speaker 2>mind about whether it's something's three or four, one hundred

0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:15.680
<v Speaker 2>and twenty two, or it gets even sillier when you

0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:17.960
<v Speaker 2>get to like one hundred and twenty two or one

0:55:18.040 --> 0:55:21.040
<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty five. Like you're talking about like literal,

0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:24.600
<v Speaker 2>and with the way the ratings go is like literal,

0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Like individuals who might have shot their worst score ever,

0:55:29.160 --> 0:55:32.200
<v Speaker 2>their best score ever at a golf course will change

0:55:33.200 --> 0:55:35.200
<v Speaker 2>whether it's one ten or one oh six.

0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Is it is beyond absurd. And I actually did a

0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:43.400
<v Speaker 1>history of ranking golf courses that goes back to eighteen

0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:46.840
<v Speaker 1>ninety eight, well nineteen oh one, but anyway, kind of

0:55:46.920 --> 0:55:48.759
<v Speaker 1>but we're running out of time and I wanted to

0:55:48.760 --> 0:55:53.720
<v Speaker 1>touch on one other subject. All right, yeah, if I could,

0:55:54.600 --> 0:55:57.200
<v Speaker 1>and this gets back. I'm trying to drive home as

0:55:57.880 --> 0:56:00.600
<v Speaker 1>the new generation theme, and I'm going to my last

0:56:00.600 --> 0:56:04.120
<v Speaker 1>shot at it. We talked a minute ago about how

0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:08.200
<v Speaker 1>many of this younger generation is working on restorations of

0:56:08.239 --> 0:56:12.399
<v Speaker 1>existing golf courses, and I think that's wonderful. It's a

0:56:12.480 --> 0:56:16.400
<v Speaker 1>source of income, It gives them a great deal of experience,

0:56:17.600 --> 0:56:21.239
<v Speaker 1>but an experience only in one aspect of golf. Architecture,

0:56:21.280 --> 0:56:25.000
<v Speaker 1>and that is an experience of doing everything but a routing.

0:56:27.920 --> 0:56:32.960
<v Speaker 1>And if there's a critical part of being a talented

0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:37.560
<v Speaker 1>golf architect, it's being a great router. And if you

0:56:37.560 --> 0:56:41.919
<v Speaker 1>can combine that with a sense of esthetics, with sort

0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:45.200
<v Speaker 1>of skill of landscaping, you've got the whole ball of wax.

0:56:45.280 --> 0:56:49.320
<v Speaker 1>And there aren't many people who have all of those

0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:56.640
<v Speaker 1>component parts. And the guyser of work for clubs are

0:56:56.640 --> 0:56:59.040
<v Speaker 1>all coming up and their centenaries at this point, they

0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:01.040
<v Speaker 1>all want to spruce up their golf courses.

0:57:01.400 --> 0:57:04.160
<v Speaker 2>They all they're all getting in line to spend fifteen

0:57:04.280 --> 0:57:05.080
<v Speaker 2>to twenty five.

0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:08.640
<v Speaker 1>It's unbelievable, but and they're sucking up the time of

0:57:08.680 --> 0:57:12.880
<v Speaker 1>all this younger generation of architects. But none of that,

0:57:13.120 --> 0:57:16.680
<v Speaker 1>or very very little of that requires routing.

0:57:16.360 --> 0:57:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Skills, which is, as you illuminated, I think probably the

0:57:21.400 --> 0:57:26.680
<v Speaker 2>most important aspect being building a golf course and probably

0:57:26.840 --> 0:57:29.720
<v Speaker 2>the one that requires the most practice bingo.

0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:35.520
<v Speaker 1>And it involves not just an esthetic sense of I

0:57:35.520 --> 0:57:38.840
<v Speaker 1>can lay out a pretty whole, It involves some engineering.

0:57:39.080 --> 0:57:42.040
<v Speaker 1>You've got an issue, you've got issues with the you know, drainage,

0:57:42.200 --> 0:57:46.000
<v Speaker 1>road route and locating clubhouse, all sorts of things.

0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:49.840
<v Speaker 2>It's problem solving at the highest degree in the profession.

0:57:50.160 --> 0:57:53.960
<v Speaker 1>It's the high and it requires an ability to read topos,

0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:57.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, all sorts of skills that you don't normally

0:57:58.080 --> 0:58:01.480
<v Speaker 1>associate with the look of a golf course. But it's

0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:03.480
<v Speaker 1>it's at the bone. It is the bones of a

0:58:03.520 --> 0:58:06.880
<v Speaker 1>golf course. I mean, if you want to criticize somebody's routing,

0:58:06.880 --> 0:58:10.600
<v Speaker 1>it's like criticizing William Faulkner novel and saying, I wish

0:58:10.640 --> 0:58:14.920
<v Speaker 1>you'd written a different book. It's it's you know, routing

0:58:15.040 --> 0:58:18.000
<v Speaker 1>is is so deeply embedded in any golf course it's

0:58:18.080 --> 0:58:21.320
<v Speaker 1>almost it's hard to discern what it was, you know,

0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:26.800
<v Speaker 1>what the decisions were at the outset, and so it it.

0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:31.720
<v Speaker 2>My point. Here's the thing. If you criticize someone's routing,

0:58:31.920 --> 0:58:34.280
<v Speaker 2>they say you didn't understand all the constraints, that's an

0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:38.400
<v Speaker 2>immediate comeback. I know always, I know, oh you don't

0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:42.440
<v Speaker 2>understand all the constraints, but I completely agree like a

0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:44.960
<v Speaker 2>really well thought out routing, like I think like one

0:58:45.000 --> 0:58:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of the coolest things that I saw, and I think

0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:52.120
<v Speaker 2>like a golf course that if that I almost brought

0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:54.760
<v Speaker 2>up in the in when you were talking about nineteen

0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:57.960
<v Speaker 2>thirty four Augusta National. I think the Tree Farm is

0:58:57.960 --> 0:59:01.320
<v Speaker 2>a great example of a golf course that's pushing in

0:59:01.360 --> 0:59:05.640
<v Speaker 2>a very different direction than its neighbor, Old Barnwell. Right

0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:08.840
<v Speaker 2>like it is it is restraint, it is it is

0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:12.600
<v Speaker 2>a beacon of restraint. Let's let the the golf the

0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:15.960
<v Speaker 2>golf ground. And I think it's like, that is a

0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:19.640
<v Speaker 2>fantastic golf course. And there are a couple and people

0:59:19.680 --> 0:59:22.280
<v Speaker 2>are gonna show me a picture of one hole and

0:59:22.320 --> 0:59:25.120
<v Speaker 2>say this isn't restraint. But for the most part the

0:59:25.160 --> 0:59:29.400
<v Speaker 2>golf course is really a study in restraint and allowing

0:59:29.440 --> 0:59:33.160
<v Speaker 2>the land to be really the natural hazard throughout. But

0:59:33.240 --> 0:59:38.600
<v Speaker 2>it was fascinating. I'm friends with Zach. I saw countless

0:59:38.680 --> 0:59:44.360
<v Speaker 2>routings on that property. From Zach. He hired Tom Doke

0:59:44.480 --> 0:59:47.520
<v Speaker 2>to do the routing. Tom came in and the biggest

0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:52.240
<v Speaker 2>difference in the routing was Zach was consistently going over hills.

0:59:52.760 --> 0:59:57.040
<v Speaker 2>It would have been an exhausting, exhausting golf course to play.

0:59:57.960 --> 1:00:00.200
<v Speaker 2>It would have been dramatic, it would have been you know,

1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:02.280
<v Speaker 2>there would have been shots and holes that you would

1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:05.640
<v Speaker 2>never forget. But one of the things this something, and

1:00:05.800 --> 1:00:09.440
<v Speaker 2>this is Zach would, I think, be very very open

1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:12.280
<v Speaker 2>about this. One of the things he said is like listen,

1:00:12.320 --> 1:00:15.360
<v Speaker 2>like I didn't think about how to like use side

1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:19.480
<v Speaker 2>hills and how to navigate a property along the edges

1:00:19.720 --> 1:00:21.840
<v Speaker 2>and use the hills and kind of traverse them on

1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:24.320
<v Speaker 2>the side. I was just going over all of them.

1:00:24.800 --> 1:00:27.640
<v Speaker 2>And this is like the perfect example of someone who's routed,

1:00:28.520 --> 1:00:30.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, when you think about like projects that didn't happen.

1:00:30.920 --> 1:00:35.080
<v Speaker 2>He's probably routed seventy golf courses, eighty golf courses, more

1:00:35.280 --> 1:00:38.720
<v Speaker 2>more than one hundred and twenty, Yeah, versus somebody that

1:00:38.800 --> 1:00:41.520
<v Speaker 2>was trying to rout a golf course for the first time, right,

1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:45.720
<v Speaker 2>And that that's like the thing about the profession, and

1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I think you hit the nail on the head. That's

1:00:47.280 --> 1:00:49.760
<v Speaker 2>so hard is like how do you get good at

1:00:49.800 --> 1:00:51.880
<v Speaker 2>routing without any opportunity to route?

1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Right right now? There is, to my mind a trade

1:00:57.120 --> 1:01:02.560
<v Speaker 1>off between routing and landscaping. The better the routing, the

1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:06.840
<v Speaker 1>less need for landscaping. And I think the tree farm

1:01:06.880 --> 1:01:08.920
<v Speaker 1>maybe an example of that. I think Zach probably was

1:01:08.960 --> 1:01:14.680
<v Speaker 1>paying deference to Tom and his routing by keeping by his restraint.

1:01:14.960 --> 1:01:19.240
<v Speaker 1>That's that's a secret vote of confidence to Tom's routing.

1:01:19.880 --> 1:01:24.080
<v Speaker 1>I think if you in too many cases sort of

1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:29.760
<v Speaker 1>a B minus routing requires an A plus landscaping job

1:01:30.800 --> 1:01:31.560
<v Speaker 1>or vice versa.

1:01:31.760 --> 1:01:35.800
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, well, I think one of the things that

1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:40.360
<v Speaker 2>you're hitting on too, is a great routing on an

1:01:40.920 --> 1:01:45.080
<v Speaker 2>above average property or better you know, above average or better. Right,

1:01:45.560 --> 1:01:48.080
<v Speaker 2>if you have a great routing there, you have very

1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:53.280
<v Speaker 2>minimal disturbance to the land the greater mature landscape because

1:01:53.320 --> 1:01:58.480
<v Speaker 2>this land'smen sitting there, there's mature plant flora and fauna.

1:01:58.920 --> 1:02:01.960
<v Speaker 2>You have less of a disturbance to that mature landscape

1:02:02.160 --> 1:02:05.280
<v Speaker 2>because you don't have to do mass earthwork and mass

1:02:05.280 --> 1:02:09.080
<v Speaker 2>earthwork when you want to regrade a fairway that extends

1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:13.680
<v Speaker 2>for you know, fifty yards into out of play areas

1:02:13.680 --> 1:02:15.600
<v Speaker 2>because you have to tie it in, and when you

1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:19.360
<v Speaker 2>do that, you remove all the vegetation. So that's why

1:02:19.440 --> 1:02:23.000
<v Speaker 2>new courses often look really new, right, And I think

1:02:23.040 --> 1:02:27.600
<v Speaker 2>that's like something that I was so amazed by Sedge Valley.

1:02:27.760 --> 1:02:31.640
<v Speaker 2>At Sand Valley was like, how beautiful the golf course

1:02:31.760 --> 1:02:34.160
<v Speaker 2>is in the first year because there was very little

1:02:34.160 --> 1:02:36.080
<v Speaker 2>disturbance to the native vegetation.

1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:39.320
<v Speaker 1>That's the main claim of minimalism it is. I'm going

1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:45.360
<v Speaker 1>to leave micro contours, natural vegetation to the extent I

1:02:45.440 --> 1:02:48.360
<v Speaker 1>possibly can, so when the course opens, it looks like

1:02:48.360 --> 1:02:50.040
<v Speaker 1>it's been there for three or four decades.

1:02:50.680 --> 1:02:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Last point here before we get you out of here.

1:02:53.520 --> 1:02:55.640
<v Speaker 2>And this ties with this, and I think one of

1:02:55.640 --> 1:02:58.280
<v Speaker 2>the things that I love the most about what's going

1:02:58.320 --> 1:03:02.920
<v Speaker 2>on in golf architecture, I don't my big issue with

1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:07.120
<v Speaker 2>golf architecture is the cost that we're chasing and what

1:03:07.160 --> 1:03:10.840
<v Speaker 2>it does to eliminate business models of affordable limit the

1:03:10.840 --> 1:03:13.920
<v Speaker 2>amount of golf courses that could get built, opportunities a route.

1:03:14.520 --> 1:03:16.360
<v Speaker 2>I think the thing I love the most about what's

1:03:16.360 --> 1:03:18.960
<v Speaker 2>going on right now, I don't think there's ever been

1:03:19.160 --> 1:03:23.440
<v Speaker 2>better site selection for golf courses. Never in the history

1:03:23.440 --> 1:03:27.800
<v Speaker 2>of golf have we understood what is a good property

1:03:27.840 --> 1:03:31.560
<v Speaker 2>for golf. And that is leading to like, if you

1:03:31.680 --> 1:03:35.040
<v Speaker 2>start with a great site, the bar is really low,

1:03:35.160 --> 1:03:39.640
<v Speaker 2>and it's led to maybe the greatest run of really

1:03:39.640 --> 1:03:41.880
<v Speaker 2>good golf courses being built ever.

1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:46.280
<v Speaker 1>And a final point, and it really supports that, is

1:03:46.320 --> 1:03:50.560
<v Speaker 1>that there's also a willingness today, unlike maybe twenty years ago,

1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:52.280
<v Speaker 1>to travel to those sites.

1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's easier to travel to them than ever before also,

1:03:57.040 --> 1:04:02.560
<v Speaker 2>which which allows for more remote, remote golf courses in everybody.

1:04:03.200 --> 1:04:06.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they don't have to be located anymore near city centers.

1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. So that's one of my favorite. Obviously Google

1:04:10.640 --> 1:04:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Earth is a huge proponent of that. But like and

1:04:14.840 --> 1:04:18.000
<v Speaker 2>and then also just knowledge of what makes a great

1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.920
<v Speaker 2>golf site. I don't think there's ever been as much

1:04:21.720 --> 1:04:24.920
<v Speaker 2>information out there about what makes great golf, like the

1:04:25.160 --> 1:04:29.760
<v Speaker 2>understanding of sand being important, the understanding of total fall

1:04:30.200 --> 1:04:32.880
<v Speaker 2>on a site, what type of contours you're looking for.

1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:36.680
<v Speaker 2>There's never been an it's never been easier to find

1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:41.640
<v Speaker 2>great sites for golf. Right, So, Bob, I will let

1:04:41.680 --> 1:04:46.040
<v Speaker 2>you go. You've got a very important USGA History Committee meeting,

1:04:47.080 --> 1:04:48.880
<v Speaker 2>so I don't want to get in the way of that.

1:04:48.920 --> 1:04:51.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to get in the way of of that.

1:04:51.160 --> 1:04:54.720
<v Speaker 2>But thank you so much for coming on uh and

1:04:55.080 --> 1:04:57.520
<v Speaker 2>people can find you. You're on you're on Twitter, you're

1:04:57.560 --> 1:05:00.840
<v Speaker 2>on Golf Club at list, You're all over the place.

1:05:00.920 --> 1:05:03.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm all over the place. Really enjoyed it. Thanks for having.

1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:17.600
<v Speaker 2>Me, Thank you for listening to another edition of the

1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Friday Golf Podcast. Big thanks to PJ. Clark for editing

1:05:21.680 --> 1:05:24.840
<v Speaker 2>and producing this episode. We've been on a pod ben

1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Vender between the Shotguns start Year in review and the

1:05:28.800 --> 1:05:31.360
<v Speaker 2>end of the year. With this podcast, me and him

1:05:31.360 --> 1:05:33.919
<v Speaker 2>have been logging a lot hours together. Thank you to PJ.

1:05:34.120 --> 1:05:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Congrats on your one Soto Mets signing. That's that's big

1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:40.439
<v Speaker 2>for you. I know it's going to carry you through

1:05:40.480 --> 1:05:44.240
<v Speaker 2>this this pod binge of editing. A great gift for

1:05:44.240 --> 1:05:47.320
<v Speaker 2>the holidays is Club TFE. It is our membership. We

1:05:47.400 --> 1:05:50.840
<v Speaker 2>have events going live tomorrow. I think the mid Ocean

1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:54.520
<v Speaker 2>event is live tomorrow. As a Club TF you member,

1:05:54.640 --> 1:05:56.840
<v Speaker 2>you get early access to these events. So if you

1:05:56.880 --> 1:06:00.280
<v Speaker 2>want to play in that sign up and you you

1:06:00.360 --> 1:06:02.600
<v Speaker 2>get twenty four hour jump on everybody. I don't know

1:06:02.640 --> 1:06:05.520
<v Speaker 2>if it'll be sold out by the time that twenty

1:06:05.520 --> 1:06:08.160
<v Speaker 2>four hours is over, but that's an awesome event that

1:06:08.240 --> 1:06:11.160
<v Speaker 2>you could get access to. We have a lot of

1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:14.000
<v Speaker 2>other really great events that are coming down. Not to mention,

1:06:14.400 --> 1:06:16.000
<v Speaker 2>we have a ton of content in there. I just

1:06:16.040 --> 1:06:20.320
<v Speaker 2>wrote a such Valley profile. I think we have another

1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:23.959
<v Speaker 2>Dope course going up this week, and I think I'll

1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:27.160
<v Speaker 2>have Mammoth Dunes up the next week. I believe, so

1:06:27.600 --> 1:06:29.320
<v Speaker 2>lots of content in there. We put a ton of

1:06:29.360 --> 1:06:32.600
<v Speaker 2>time in that. If you're interested in that, go to

1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:35.720
<v Speaker 2>the Frida egg dot com slash membership. We'll be back

1:06:35.840 --> 1:06:40.520
<v Speaker 2>later this week with a couple interviews. In an episode,

1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:44.880
<v Speaker 2>we've got Todd Dempsey and Chris Millard, so Little Persimmon

1:06:44.960 --> 1:06:48.400
<v Speaker 2>golf in a little Pebble Beach history chatter on the

1:06:48.440 --> 1:07:00.840
<v Speaker 2>pod for Thursday. Thanks four