1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm Chacy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisental. So Joe, uh, 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: we just can't get away from semiconductors. You know. I 4 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: thought we were going to end it with our five 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: episodes series, but the people are clamoring for more chips. Tracy. 6 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: That's just a fact I can't get can't get away 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: from it. Yeah, It's one of those like just when 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: you thought you were out, they pull you back in 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of things. Okay, So, by popular request, this is 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: a bonus episode to our semiconductor series. It's going to 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: be a little bit different to the other ones because 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about a new technology, a 13 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: new sort of how do I explain this? Well, I 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: guess it's an open source hardware technology that could have 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: a big impact on the chips industry and the way 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: things have traditionally been done. Right. So a lot of 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: our discussion has sort of talked about a few like 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: basic business models. I mean, we've talked about Intel and 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,279 Speaker 1: the sort of integrated UM chip design and fab model 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: boundary versus fab and then the fabless semiconductor companies which 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 1: have given rise to the contract manufacturer Tawan Semi, which 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: is sort of the ultimate fab. So we've sort of like, 23 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: um got this sort of like broad contours of the industry, 24 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: but in terms of like interesting new technologies or different 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: directions or totally different models of where how things could go, 26 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: still more to be discovered. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, uh, 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: someone told us that we had to talk to this 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: particular company because they were one of the leaders in 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: trying to commercialize this open source hardware idea. It's called 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: Risk five. It's a let me see if I can 31 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: pull it up, it's R I S C and then 32 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: five Risk five. So what we're gonna do is actually 33 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: learn about what the technology is and then dive in 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: a little bit to what it might mean for existing 35 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: chip makers and how the whole ecosystem of semiconductors actually works. 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: I can't wait. I don't know anything about any of 37 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: this stuff, so I just want to learn more. Yeah, okay, 38 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: we're all learning together. So without further ado, let's bring 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: on Chris Latner. He's the president of product and engineering 40 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: over at SCI five. He's also a long time tech 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: guy and quite famous in the industry for reasons that 42 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: we will get in. So Chris, welcome to our thoughts. Hey, 43 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. 44 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: Could you could you maybe give us a snapshot the 45 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: elevator pitch for risk five before we begin. Sure sounds great. 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: Let's start with what what is risk five? So when 47 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: you start talking about these companies, companies like Intel or 48 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: Arm or m D things like this, they generally make processors, 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: and so the processor in your computer it's jobs to 50 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: run software. And there's this complicated dance that happens between 51 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: the software and the hardware and the thing that mediates that. 52 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: The thing that lives in between these two worlds is 53 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: a thing called an instruction set. That instruction set is 54 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: often proprietor and so um. With Intel, for example, they'll 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: use an instruction set called x A D six. ARM 56 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: has a set of instruction sets that they named after themselves. 57 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: They have the ARM Instruction Set UM. There are many, 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: many of these things that have existed over the years. 59 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: A company called MIPS remember, a company may remember ages 60 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: ago called Sun had an instruction set called Spark, and 61 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: many of these things existed in their designed for different 62 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: different configurations. Now these have all worked and these have 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: been a good thing, and obviously we have a lot 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: of successful computers today. Um, but there's a problem. The 65 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: problem is that the software and the hardware lasts longer 66 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: than the companies do sometimes and so MIPS for examples, 67 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: in bankruptcy these days, Sun kind of went away and 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: Spark is in a different world. And so one of 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: the challenges that you end up having as a device 70 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: manufacturer as a software provider is that you need something 71 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: that will survive. And you know, companies in general go 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: through changes and um, you know, as an industry, it's 73 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: always evolving. It's a fast paced world. Now there's another 74 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: challenge with this, which is also when you have a 75 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: company that's tied to a specific construction set that they create, 76 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: you only have a single provider. This can sometimes be 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: limiting if you're building a serious advices around one company's technology, 78 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: both if they go away, but also you don't have 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: as much market pressure pushing them to innovate and pushing 80 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: them to you know, have reasonable charges and rates and 81 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: things like this. So RISK five is a different approach 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: to this. Instead of saying it's a proprietary interface between 83 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: hardware and software, Risk five is an open standard and 84 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: so it's you can think of it as an open 85 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: source kind of instruction set which allows many different implementations 86 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: of hardware to work with all the software. And so 87 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: in this in this in this vein you can see 88 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: to something like t c P i P, which is 89 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: an open standard for networking, or you could see this LINUX, 90 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: which is an open standard for for software UM in 91 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: the unex world and things like this. And so that's 92 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: really what RISK five is is it's an old idea 93 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: about this interface between hardware and software. But the new 94 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: thing about it is that it's uh an open standard 95 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: and it also has a fresh new design that really 96 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: learns from what has happened in the industry and it's 97 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: just technically better in most ways. So just to be clear, 98 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: your company SCI five, is it manufacturing chips or is 99 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: it just creating this software layer from which others could 100 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: theoretically then build ships. Great question. So, if if I 101 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: look backwards, Risk five started started at the University of Berkeley, 102 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: and so it's about ten years old. It started in 103 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: a research lab, and you know, initially they were just 104 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: building an instruction set to support academic research, support some 105 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: of the projects that they're interested in. And that that 106 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: became a movement where a lot of people agreed that 107 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: they needed a standardized system and that allowed people to 108 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: do hardware research without having to do all the software work. 109 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: Really was it was enabling new kinds of innovation coming 110 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: out of the academic world. The founders of Risk five 111 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: all came from that research lab in Berkeley and five 112 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: years later decided to start a new company, and that 113 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: company is called SCI five. So that's where that's where 114 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: we We now are leading the Risk five revolution with 115 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: the founders of Risk five, and we're building a new company, 116 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: but we're also building and defining and driving much of 117 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: the technology the powers this open cross ecosystem standard that 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: Risk five is, and so SCI five as a company, 119 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: we build Risk five implementations. And so you can think 120 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: of as an analogy um T c P i P 121 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: is an open standard for networking, but Cisco builds routers, right, 122 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: and so we yeah, we're we're building implementations of Risk 123 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: five and so uh we are the best place to 124 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: go to if you want to build a product around 125 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: Risk five technology. And we have a wide range of 126 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: different implementations with different performance points, size area, power trade offs, 127 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: things like this could you maybe give us a little 128 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: bit of your background, So I teased it in the intro, 129 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: But you are very well known within the tech and 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: computer world, most notably well you might debate this, but 131 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: for developing the Swift programming language, which I think is 132 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: the thing underpinning iOS on Mac and Apple and things 133 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: like that. How did you get involved in this space 134 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: and what attracted you to sci five and the risk 135 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: five idea. Yeah, so, so I've been kicking around the 136 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: tech industry for a number of years now. Amazing how 137 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: time flies. I spent eleven plus years of Apple, for example, 138 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: but did a lot of work on fundamental low level 139 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: software called compilers. And compilers are the thing that takes 140 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: the application that a programmer rights and gets it to 141 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: work with the hardware and so that instruction set that 142 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: that that interface between hardware and software. Compilers are just 143 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: on the software side of that and they handle that 144 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: that making it work on the processor for you and 145 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: so um. As part of that, I build a number 146 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: of technologies that are all open source, including this thing 147 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: called l VM and playing and a bunch of other 148 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 1: compiler technologies that underpinn and enable a lot of that technology. 149 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: Right at the hardware software boundary. There are many things 150 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: that happened in Apple. We build a lot of really 151 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: great things. The Swift programming language is one of them, 152 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: and so I've done a lot of work and that 153 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: that space. Since then, I've worked a number of other places, 154 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: including Tesla and Google, workd on machine learning, infrastructure, large 155 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: scale TPUs, whole bunch of things, and it's all been 156 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: mostly this systems software working with the hardware. So when 157 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: I was considering enjoining a SCI five, the really exciting 158 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: thing to me about SCI five is is a number 159 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: of things. Is this focus on open technologies, which you 160 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: kind of have an unfair advantage when it comes to 161 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: changing the world right because people love open technologies and 162 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot love the reach that you can have with them. Um, 163 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: it's just the the idea of instead of being on 164 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: the software side of the hardware software divide, be able 165 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: to straddle that. And so SCI five is both a 166 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: software company and a hardware company, and so we're able 167 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: to innovate by spanning that that gap and really doing 168 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: things that are quite next generation because we bring this 169 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: combination of knowing how the transistors work and your silicon, 170 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: but also how how to get programmers to use it. 171 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: And that's something that UM typically UH companies have really 172 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: bifurcated on. You have software companies, you have hardware companies. 173 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: It's really rare to be able to span that gap. 174 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: So give us an example of a theoretical customer, or 175 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: if you want an actual customer who comes to Risk five, 176 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: what are they looking for? What can they Why do 177 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: they go to you as opposed to someone else. What 178 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: can they get from you in terms of performance, in 179 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: terms of a product that makes sense for them that 180 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: from a business standpoint, UM can't get from somewhere else. Absolutely, 181 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: So there's many different categories. This one example is a 182 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: replacement customer. So somebody is using a product from, for example, 183 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: Myths and they're saying, hey, wow, we're building our technology 184 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: on a technology staff built by a company in bankruptcy. 185 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: Maybe that's not a good idea, right. We also have 186 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: many customers coming to us from arm designs, and so 187 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: the arm arm company has a number of CPU designs 188 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: in their portfolio, and for a variety of reasons, customers 189 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: are not as happy with that as they used to be, 190 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: and so a replacement of existing products typically they're looking 191 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: for something that is um you know, solves the same 192 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: kind of a job as what they were using before, 193 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: but is better in terms of UM the area, the 194 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: size of the hardware, or the power consumes UM and 195 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: things like this, and so Risk five as a technology 196 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: is better than many of these things out there. Is 197 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: better designed and engineered, mostly because it's much newer. And 198 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: so the technology industry has invented a lot of things, 199 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: and as with any any space, there are mistakes that 200 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: are made along the way, and Risk five is a 201 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: fresh start that allows us to get those things right 202 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: and be able to draw the best ideas from across 203 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: the industry into one one system. I think that the 204 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: other more interesting and exciting part of what sci Fi's 205 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: business is propelled by is differentiated solutions. And so while 206 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: many people come to us saying like, hey, I want 207 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: to swap this thing out, that the most fun pieces 208 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: are that we're able to enable products that nobody else 209 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,239 Speaker 1: can build. And that happens because we build our processors 210 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: and our other technologies as kind of as software. And 211 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: so we build hardware with the spirit of software that's 212 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: very configurable, dynamic, and you can tune it for the 213 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: use case. And this allows you to say, hey, well, 214 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: I want to build, you know, an AI powered thing 215 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: that does voice recognition and this stuff, and so we 216 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: can give you the world's best implementation of that that's 217 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: really tuned to the use case. And here we are. 218 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: One of the macro phenomena that's going on today is 219 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: the thing that many people would call the end of 220 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: Moore's law. And so the process technology, the fabs are 221 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: not not not moving at the speed that they used to, 222 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: and the economics are really shifting. And what this means 223 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: is this means that there's an increased desire and increased 224 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: need for custom solutions. And custom solutions can be much 225 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: more power efficient, they can be more cost efficient, they 226 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: can be just better for the you know, being part 227 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: of your life as a human and they fit in 228 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: as IoT light bulbs are like all these other things. 229 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: And so that's really driving customization way that we haven't 230 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: seen before. And this is really what SCI five strength is. 231 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: So I want to go back to that replacement idea 232 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: because a big theme running through this entire semiconductors series 233 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 1: is the politicization of chips. And of course we've seen 234 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: the US put restrictions on China and things like that. 235 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: I think one of your customers was reported to be 236 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: Ali Baba, So I mean, is this a way for 237 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: companies too, I guess accelerate a reduction in their dependency 238 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: on things like TSMC chips or maybe Western chips from Intel. Also, 239 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a complicated topic and I'm certainly not 240 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: an expert on that. I think there's many factors that 241 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: are going on here. Risk five is an open standard, 242 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: allows collaboration, and that collaboration happens across political boundaries, and 243 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: so the US and sci FI, for example, is investing 244 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: a lot in Risk five. China is also investing a 245 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: tremendous amount into Risk five software in particular, and they're 246 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: starting to look at Risk five hardware and so um. 247 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: From a technology perspective, this just kind of flats all 248 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: boats like this just makes things go faster, the technology 249 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: curve go that way. In terms of the plutotas politicization 250 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: of fabs and things like this, I think it really 251 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: comes down to the business model of the individual companies. 252 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: And from sci Fi's perspective, we're very happy to work 253 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: with UH, Samsung and TSMC and multiple different fabs and 254 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: UH for that. For US it's really about what our 255 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: customers are looking for and what the products they're trying 256 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: to build are and trying to find the best possible 257 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: answer for their their outcome. So the big FABS that 258 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: everybody knows when it comes to the annual manufacturer, your 259 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: their client. UM. Generally, the way it works is that 260 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: we provide technology to other hardware companies and so UM 261 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: let me give you an example of this. UM. We 262 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: we recently launched. UH there's an FPGA company called Microchip, 263 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: and they launched a product that incorporates our technology into 264 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: their product. UM, they package it up, they work with 265 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: the FABS, they do all of that work. We we 266 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: are what's called a fabulist semiconductor company, and so we 267 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: provide technology to other companies that then build build a 268 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: larger product pulled together documentation and software and things like this, 269 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: and then we enable that product to be built. UM. 270 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: There are other cases where we actually are the the 271 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: the device manufacturer, and so we do have developer boards, 272 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: for example, and so we'll make little boards that developers 273 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: can use to write software and work with risk five 274 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: and that's been very popular. I mean, all of those 275 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: sounds really great. UM. And obviously you're making a good 276 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: case for the technology, but what's what's adoption like? Do 277 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: you find that anyone is resistant to this new idea 278 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: or is everyone um sort of jumping on board with 279 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: the customization pitch. Well, So I think that there's different 280 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: aspects of this. One is risk five as a industry trend, 281 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: and there we see just a complete explosion in adoption 282 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: from kind of the who's who of companies including Google 283 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: and Video, Qualcom, Samsung, UM, Western Digital, also Ali Baba 284 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: and all kinds of all kinds of companies are are 285 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: working within doing things with Risk five, and so I 286 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: think there's a question of when, when and if does 287 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: Risk five take over everything, which I think is an 288 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: entirely possible future where you know, you fast forward a 289 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: hundred years from now, it could be risk five and 290 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: um and hopefully much sooner than a hundred years um. 291 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: With SCIE five we're in we're in effectively all of 292 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: the big semiconductors products, and we don't talk about our 293 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: customers specifically, but the adoption and the drive we're seeing 294 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: is quite intense. It's very exciting time right now. So 295 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: do you have any competitors in the Risk five space 296 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: or is it too early for that and would you 297 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: expect them to emerge at some point? Yeah, So, so 298 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: there are other companies that build risk five processors. UM 299 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: Risk five as an open standard really enables this, and 300 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: we encourage that. It depends on what you mean by competitors. So, 301 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: for example, UM risk five is why is widely adopted 302 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: within the academic context, and so there's many university projects 303 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: where people are building risk five course. UM. I don't 304 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: see these as competition. I see these as you know, 305 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: the next generation of engineers and we'd like to hire UM. 306 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: But you could say that they're playing in the same space. UM. 307 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: Many companies are also building small risk five cores themselves, 308 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: and I think that they're playing with the technology in 309 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: many cases and they're starting to understand it. UM. There 310 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: are a relatively small number of companies that are commercial 311 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: productizing and commercializing risk five course the way we are, 312 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: and I think that is also great. That's that's one 313 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: of the great things about this standard is that you 314 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: can get different implementations from different companies. UM. In comparison, 315 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: SCI five has been at it for you know, our 316 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: our team has been at for ten years. UH. SCI 317 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: five as a company has been at it for five years, 318 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: and so we're just much further ahead and than the 319 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: pack in terms of the breadth for a portfolio, the 320 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: maturity of the technology, um the established customer base. And 321 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: so I'm very thrilled that our customers love our products, 322 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: and that's really what I am We focus on. So 323 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: one of the things that's come up a few times 324 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: in some of our discussions has been, you know, you 325 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: sort of hinted at it, which is the sort of 326 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: death of Moore's law, you know, the sort of the 327 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: the increasing difficulty of the arms race, how much it 328 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: costs to improve speed size. And when we've heard from 329 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: a couple of people, they say things like you asked 330 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: the question like, okay, what could theoretically up end the 331 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: dominance of a company like Taiwan Semiconductor. And the answer 332 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: that a couple of people have given up is, well, 333 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: maybe customers don't necessarily need the very fastest chip anymore. 334 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: Maybe like the sort of traditional metrics of performance that 335 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: we sort of think about with chips, certain measures of 336 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: speed and so forth do not become the key things 337 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: that people absolutely need. I'm trying to understand a little 338 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: bit more like does risk five, does your model sort 339 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: of create the avenue for a sort of I get 340 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: maybe break in the arms race of chips such that 341 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: the industry can go in a more direction, or in 342 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: a direction that's not just about more expensive, faster chips 343 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: and offer different value propositions. But I think that it's 344 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: it's hard to paint the entire industry with one brush. 345 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: So I think that if you look at UM, for example, 346 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: the Internet of Things, IoT space for example, there are 347 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: time to market is worth a lot, right because a 348 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: lot of it is finding product market fit, and so 349 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: spending three to five years to build a chip is 350 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: really kind of an untenable place because five years from 351 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: now the industry will be changing, and you know it 352 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't really make sense to do that. And 353 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: so I think that that that is a pretty big 354 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: shift and how people think about things from back in 355 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: the Windows PC days, where until it would come out 356 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: with a chip every every so often and it was 357 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: just the steady, say, march up and performance. On the 358 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: other hand, I think you look in the server space, 359 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: for example, and there there you're kind of limited by power, 360 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: and so each each socket in a large scale cloud 361 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: data center can dissipate roughly two hundred fifty watts, and 362 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: so the question is how much how do you get 363 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: how much can you get out of that? Right? And 364 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: so to me, uh, we we as an industry have 365 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: solved that problem by pushing, pushing process technology and chasing 366 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 1: from one fab node to the next, which is very 367 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: expensive and as you say, it's it's not a particularly 368 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: scalable approach. The other way to tackle this is to 369 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: innovate in the hardware. And so what we're seeing now 370 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: is we're seeing a rise of GPUs, and we're seeing 371 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: a rise of machine learning accelerators, and we're seeing a 372 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 1: rise of other other accelerators, and to date they're primarily 373 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: purpose built. So I want to accelerate video and cooding, 374 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: you know. And so if I want to accelerate video 375 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: and cooding, I can build a box that does video encoding, 376 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: and I can build a chip for video encoding. The 377 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: far extreme of that is I want a fully general 378 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: box that can do anything. And that's what you see 379 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: with typical CPUs. There's a big space in the middle 380 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: where you say, if you're a cloud provider, for example, 381 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: I want to be able to run a wide range 382 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: of different specialized workloads. And so I want to do 383 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: a little bit of video encoding, I want to do 384 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: a little bit of signal processing. I want to do 385 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: a little bit of machine learning. I want to do 386 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of graphics. I want to do a 387 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: little bit of this. And so what you can do 388 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: is you can build what are called heterogeneous computers. And 389 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: these heterogeneous computers can have accelerators for different domains and 390 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: assembling those together into one package is something that you know, 391 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: Risk five is standard and a lot of the ecosystem 392 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: that we're helping drive well, I think really changes the 393 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: nature of compute. And so I think that we as 394 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: an industry or shifting and it's kind of hard to 395 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: see the end state from you know, we're halfway through 396 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: this transition, but it's a really exciting time. So going forward, 397 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: how do we know if people are using Risk five? 398 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: So my understanding is that you know, if you're using 399 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: something from ARM, you have to sign like some sort 400 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: of licensee agreement and we can kind of figure out 401 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: who signed those. But I don't think using Risk five 402 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: you necessarily have to disclose what you're doing because it's 403 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: open source. How how do we know what adoption actually 404 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: looks like and how how much this gets embedded in 405 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: the actual industry. Well, so it's it's hard to get 406 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: precise metrics. So for example, in video has proactively said 407 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: we use RISK five and our g v us, right, 408 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: and so if they if they had not said that, 409 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: then nobody would know. It's just an internal implementation detail 410 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: and it's not exposed. And so, UM, I don't think 411 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: you'll ever get a true number. But what we can 412 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: see is the number of members of the open Risk 413 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: five Foundation, for example, is just exploding, right. We know 414 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: that the number of design wins coming out of companies 415 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: like sci Fi for example, is just going exponential. We 416 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: see we see, uh, you see the metrics and the 417 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: the secondary indicators that that you can tell that there's 418 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of momentum and a lot a lot 419 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: driving this. And so while it's very difficult to know 420 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: the precise number of design winds or the precise number 421 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: of transistors configured for Risk five, we know it's it's incredible. 422 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: So I have a weird question. But um, we've talked 423 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: a little bit about this on the podcast the sort 424 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: of culture around open source technology on Silicon Valley. We've 425 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: spoken about it with the Camille Fournier and people like that. 426 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: But is it weird too commercialize and open source technology 427 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: like this. I've seen some people like in Risk five 428 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: to Linux, like does it does it feel weird to 429 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: be doing that or does it feel like this sort 430 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: of commercialization is what's needed to get that technology rolled 431 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: out to a wider group. Yeah, So, I mean, I 432 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: there are many different ways of looking at this. I've 433 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: I've worked on open source and open technologies for a 434 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: couple of decades. Now I can I can share some 435 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: examples of that. So at Apple, for example, we built 436 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: these compiler tools and these technologies that that application developers 437 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: used to build their apps, right, which is a very 438 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: meta thing. Um. And so Apple is a company that 439 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: believes in producing value and keeping it proprietary, of course, 440 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: but even in that context, there was incredible value in 441 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: making that open and sharing sharing contributions that they were 442 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: doing with the world, because they then were able to 443 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: benefit from the work that everybody else in the industry 444 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: was doing. And so that open standard, the open technology, 445 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: the open source code that was being developed, was not 446 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: the differentiating value for their products. It was the enabling 447 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: technology that they benefited from. You know, Google used the 448 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: same technology in their data centers and like that was 449 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: actually great for Apple because you know, all the work 450 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: that Google put into it directly benefited Apple and Apple's products. 451 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: So um, I think that there's a long, long balance 452 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: of trying to figure out what to open, how best 453 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: to work in foster communities. With five, I think I'm 454 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: seeing very similar results that I saw I've seen in 455 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: other domains where open has a lot of advantages that 456 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: are hard to quantify. So for example, there are you know, 457 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: we're all humans, and humans like to work on things 458 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: with large scale impact, and so um, open technologies arguably 459 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 1: are it's easier to draw the best minds into working 460 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: on open technologies because they end up having larger impact 461 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: on the world. The way that risk five is defined 462 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: and standardized and driven in the ecosystem is by an 463 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: open committee development standardization process, and it's kind of the 464 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: who's who's of gurus in the industry. They are coming 465 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: together to make sure that the best ideas win and 466 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: you get you get a really good result, and it's 467 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: kind of hard hard to match that with a company 468 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: off in the corner that even if they're a massive 469 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: semiconductor company, they still have only a slice of the bright, 470 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: bright minds in the industry. And so there's there's a 471 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of nuanced pieces of this. 472 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: But then also you there has to be a business model, 473 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: right we have sci fi or for profit company we 474 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: are you know, we're we're here to build a scalable 475 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: business that is an amazing an amazing feed by itself. 476 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: And so the question is how do you fund and 477 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: propel and make the open technologies thrive while also having 478 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: sustainable businesses that you can you know, pay your engineers 479 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: to work on the open technology and that that divide 480 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: is often tricky. But if you look you look to 481 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: the industry, Red Hat for example, as a company that 482 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: was built on Linux and they put tons of engineering 483 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: at the Linux and they build a great services business 484 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: and there are now a huge part of IBM. Right. Um. 485 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: So there's many, many of these companies that have found 486 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: different business models. Google, for example, is apparently a profitable company, 487 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: you could say, um and and they are built and 488 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: contribute a tremendous amount of open technologies. And so it's 489 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: it's all about figuring out the divide and there's different 490 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: divides that makes sense for different industry sectors and different 491 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: technologies and different companies, but I think it's a pretty 492 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: proven model by this point, and and for it's worth, 493 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: I think that open software is much further ahead than 494 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: open hardware, and so I think that we're really on 495 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: the leading edge of that for hardware, and I think 496 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: that ten years from now it's going to be a 497 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: completely different world. Well, Chris, that was really really interesting, 498 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: and I think we're all going to be um watching 499 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: what happens with Risk five and with SCI five for 500 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: years to come. So thank you so much. We really 501 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: appreciate that. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thanks Chris. 502 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: That was awesome. So Joe, I'm glad we had Chris on. 503 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: Definitely a little bit different to what we spoke about 504 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: on some of our other semiconductor podcasts, But I think 505 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: there are two things that probably stand out. One is 506 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: that idea of Risk five as a cheat for the 507 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: end of Moore's law, Like if you can't eke out 508 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: any more efficiencies in terms of the actual technology, then 509 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: maybe you could do it through customization and the way 510 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: that technology works with the rest of the system. And 511 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: then I guess the second one is this idea that 512 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: Risk five might actually be a way of increasing independence 513 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: away from some of the big manufacturers. Yeah. No, I 514 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: thought that was super interesting and just this like this 515 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: idea that's like, Okay, you have all these companies that 516 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: could build the chips, you have these end customers that 517 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: have specific needs, you know, you could I think, like 518 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: he said, I don't know the exact word, but the 519 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: idea of like mindshare, like people like working on open 520 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: source products, people like being part of something that's potentially 521 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: world changing. So it seems like potentially one of these 522 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: things where it's like sure, like the sort of dominant 523 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: players in the industry, the dominant platforms X say, the 524 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: six arm et cetera, aren't going anywhere, but you can 525 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: very easily, as he describes it, imagine it just continuing 526 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: to gather steam over the long term. Yeah. Um, definitely 527 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: an interesting one to watch. And I guess the issue 528 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: is who comes out and announces that they're actually using it, 529 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: so we get a good idea of what adoption actually 530 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: looks like. All right, well but no, definitely, UM going 531 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: to have it on my radar. Yeah, um, this is 532 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: our gift to add thoughts listeners demanding more semiconductor content. UM, 533 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed it, and I'm sure we'll be recording 534 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: more semiconductor episodes eventually, but for now, we're going to 535 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: move on to some other things. Right. I think there's 536 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: some other stuff going on that we should talk about 537 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: in markets No way, Okay, all right, this has been 538 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,719 Speaker 1: another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 539 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and 540 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Why Isn't All? You can follow me on 541 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwart. You can follow our guest Chris 542 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: Latner on Twitter. He's at Sea Latner Underscore l l 543 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: v M. Follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. 544 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesco Levie at Francesco Today, 545 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts under the handle 546 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: AD Podcasts. Thanks for listening.